dheffernanMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
edited July 2014
Like practically everyone else in this thread, I am gravely disappointed by this pack. I have no problem with paying for things I want. I bought the Knight of the Feywild pack and I've spent at least $10 a month on Neverwinter while I've been playing (I took a short break.) I subscribe to Cryptic's other two MMOs at that rate.
But this? This price cannot be justified. It just can't. The developer post on reddit referred to upstream is insulting to my intelligence. Do they seriously believe they have to cater to the 1% in order to make money? Why are Cryptic's other two MMOs, both of which use a hybrid F2P/subscription model, still running then?
Were Dragonborn available as a stand-alone purchase at $20 I would pay it. It is, if I dare use this word on the internet, inconceivable to think that the company would not make more money at the lower price. I was really looking forward to this race and briefly considered buying the pack but then withholding further purchases for eight months. That would be a bad decision, though, as purchasing this pack will only encourage the company to continue the practice. So I've come to a different and frankly difficult decision.
While I will likely continue to play Neverwinter I am done paying to do so, at least until such time as I see some indication that the company has reconsidered the game's pricing structure. Things in this area have been trending the wrong way for a while now in many small ways. I would say the Dragonborn Legend pack was the straw that broke the camel's back but really it's more like the 2x4 that crushed the kitten.
@Venture-1@Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that far back. Yes, *that* Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. For me it was Tuesday.
Wait let me get this straight. Unless i'm just misreading a lack of dimorphism. Y'all are trying to sell me a 75 dollar race package without showing me what an entire second gender looks like? What is this,Ubisoft? Where the lizard women at?
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sokolnichiyMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 187Arc User
edited July 2014
I have nothing against paying for dragonborn race.
What i do have, is that i just cant do that X)) cause some individual accidantely banned Russia from ability to buy packs. However my country is not even in a banned list.
I have nothing against paying for dragonborn race.
What i do have, is that i just cant do that X)) cause some individual accidantely banned Russia from ability to buy packs. However my country is not even in a banned list.
Many folks here would by it. 100$ is not much.
Doesn't Russia have it's own server? if it does that might be why you cannot buy stuff for the international server.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Doesn't Russia have it's own server? if it does that might be why you cannot buy stuff for the international server.
Very likely you have to go to the Russian site to buy for the Russian server.
The other possibility is that the pack as presented to the international server does not conform to Russian Laws (the reason why Russia has its own server system) and the pack will be released for them at a later point in time.
paying is fine, because they need revenue. and the price cannot be "fair" because the people who buy must support those who are pure F2P. they have to keep their server/staff paid.
I don't agree with these packs though, it would be alot more accessible and profitable if they broke things down and made it into micro-transactions. E.G. unlock drow for $15, dragonborne $25, those special enchantments $5, unique transmutes/cosmetics for $5 etc etc.
Then people can pick and choose what fits them, the ones who want to spend loads can just buy these "bundles packs"
Because right now, its either pay big or don't pay at all, there is no middle ground = lost market segment.
bevynMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 6
edited July 2014
I do agree that the price for what you get is a "bit" high. And while the items included are kinda pretty I would like to see an epic mount as well as some AD thrown i there as well. When I bought the Hunter Ranger pack for $50 i felt it worth while this one I am not so sure about without at least i significant amount of AD. And a new mount would be icing on the cake for be to buy it right this second!!
I'm not opposed to them making a race that is pay to play. After all, they do need a cash shop to survive and need products that people are willing to buy. I do agree that their prices are far too high, which is rather foolish. Would they rather have a few people drop $75-$100, or a vastly greater portion of their players willing to drop $30-$40? I'm betting they'd get a lot more with the latter.
I'm pretty sure the Dragonborn will be exclusive, though. With the drow, they said from the start that there would be a free version, and with the elves, not only did they have the wood elves already in existence, but they stated the release of the sun elf right alongside the moon elf. There's been no mention of a free version of the Dragonborn. It has been one of the most highly requested races, though, so that's probably why they felt they could put it behind a paywall. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if a class, such as Paladin, were also made pay to play.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!" pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all." looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
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sokolnichiyMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 187Arc User
Doesn't Russia have it's own server? if it does that might be why you cannot buy stuff for the international server.
Hack....we do have Russian server....but it looks like a reservation for native americans....beg me pardon.....
I'm not fond of playing together with our folk cause there are lots of lads hwo just not seem to but be stupid and cruel and stuff.
I like international community...it's way more friendly and else.
So it's abit frustrating....
Russian players used to have an ability to buy pack playing on euro shard as long as we had no ru server....and after arc release we were banned and have no oppurtunity to buy packs for EU server.
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sokolnichiyMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 187Arc User
Very likely you have to go to the Russian site to buy for the Russian server.
The other possibility is that the pack as presented to the international server does not conform to Russian Laws (the reason why Russia has its own server system) and the pack will be released for them at a later point in time.
Russian players used to have an ability to buy pack playing on euro shard as long as we had no ru server....and after arc release we were banned and have no oppurtunity to buy packs for EU server.
I enjoy playing with EU and Americans, Turkish and else rather then with Russians....but there are cool Russian guys on EU who also do not want to go to ru server cause it is no SPARTA there....it's totall MADNESS
So it's not agains laws and it's not likely because we have ru shard. Even our community manager says it's some kinda mistake that guys who stayed on EU server are banned from buying packs.
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sokolnichiyMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 187Arc User
paying is fine, because they need revenue. and the price cannot be "fair" because the people who buy must support those who are pure F2P. they have to keep their server/staff paid.
I don't agree with these packs though, it would be alot more accessible and profitable if they broke things down and made it into micro-transactions. E.G. unlock drow for $15, dragonborne $25, those special enchantments $5, unique transmutes/cosmetics for $5 etc etc.
Then people can pick and choose what fits them, the ones who want to spend loads can just buy these "bundles packs"
Because right now, its either pay big or don't pay at all, there is no middle ground = lost market segment.
It honestly wouldn't surprise me if a class, such as Paladin, were also made pay to play.
It would surprise me. It was stated in interview by PWE CEO (Back in February or March, 2013) that Classes will always be free to play. Though things change, it really would surprise me if a class were put behind a paywall.
As for the Dragonborn pack: go ahead and call me a "whale" or whatever you want. I bought one and I'm happy I did. Here's a couple points to consider, just food for thought, folks:
Why include another freakin' Companion? I have *too many* companions - all are account-wide through other packs and bonus rewards. I don't need another companion and if this pack included one it would frankly *lower the value* of the pack from my perspective. If you want to buy a pack that comes with a companion there are four others already available - buy one of those.
True, the Dragnonborn race is a "cosmetic" change, but having modeled in 3D myself for years I look at the example images and I can't help but feel there is a lot more to it. The body shapes are drastically different from all other race models - not the textures, mind you, but that actual body shapes. This leads me to believe there was a *lot* of extra work involved, creating armor and costumes and whatnot. Sure, I could be completely wrong, but it would be a massive undertaking to create all that stuff in such a way as to be compatible with existing model mesh shape and the new one. I dunno - I just hope there is quality there (no clipping, etc.).
The price of the pack is highly subjective. First of all $100 isn't all that much. But I'm an "old <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" (Age 52) - so I make enough discretionary money I can buy it. I know many of you are less than 30-somethings and that same amount is a lot "higher" percentage of your discretionary income than it would be for me. But also the "value" of the pack is subjective.
Everyone is looking at it as "buying the race with trinkets added-in". I see it differently: I am buying all the "trinkets: and the playable race is "added-in". The Dragonborn race is the bonus coming with the other stuff. Now consider the prices of all these other things, such as the Artifact if they were sold in the Auction House. I would hope you get my point.
If Dragonborn is the most-requested playable race then it's simply good business to charge people for it. This *is* business, not a charity as was mentioned above. So the question is: at what price point to sell it? It's a statistical fact that $20 and less is an "impulse buy" (people will just throw $20 around willy-nilly) - but $100 and less is a "careless buy" - very low percolation time in consideration before spending - meaning the buyer considers benefit first, value second.
So by adding in all the trinkets to make it a whole package - Cryptic raises the value of the package. Buy pricing it at the $100 point fewer people will buy it (yet they'll make the same money) - makes it "rarer" in-game, increasing the value even more for those willing to buy the package. Example: Black Ice Warhorse and Tenser's Disk Mounts in the AH: They are *Rare* - they sell between 17 and 30 Million and they *are* selling. Hence - the "rarity" of an item increases the worth.
Finally: this is not "pay-to-win" as some have hinted at. Playing a Dragonborn race will give no one any advantage over anyone else. You can play and "win" the game 100% without spending a single dime. So enough with that nonsense.
I could say "hey, I'm supporting the game studio by buying this stuff so you guys can play for free!" -BUNK. Truth: I'm selfish. I'm buying this stuff for myself because I want it. Supporting the studio and allowing others to play for free is just a side-benefit, PWE's business model. However, the good news is that the onus is on them: they must create high-quality stuff that people are willing to pay for or the whole house will collapse. Fortunately, they are building high-quality stuff people are willing to pay for. So you detractors and naysayers can whine and cry and complain and notch all you want - it won't change anything. But if shouting out your disapproval makes you feel better then fair enough.
I thought (may be wrong though) that a Dev said that all classes and content would always be free.
Hm....and what about paragon paths ?
In DDO they have rare paragon paths for cash.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited July 2014
I'm sure there's a certain amount of psychology that goes into this. At a higher price, the Dragonborn race is going to be more rare, and thus more valuable to those willing to shell out more money. If it's cheaper, then it's less rare, and people feel less special about buying it. And at the end of the day, SOMEONE is going to complain that it's over-priced.
If the Dragonborn race had been added separately for $25, you'd have threads all over this place complaining that $25 is ridiculous for just a race. "It should be $5 or $10! Just imagine HOW many people would buy the race at $10, they'd make sure much more money!"
Right? Yeah. Probably.
PWE is a business, and they've been really successful with their F2P model. I have to imagine they have a lot of data about what people purchase and at what prices, and they used that to price the Dragonborn pack.
It's one thing for us to post on this forum and say what we WOULD do. It's another to be behind the scenes at PWE and see what people ACTUALLY do.
If i pay for the pack can i be a dragonborn but not look like one, because they look so ugly. I'd buy it but would hate looking at my char if it looked like any of the pics. ugh!
Yeah I was thinking the same thing , Cryptic's definition of 'exclusive' seems to be different than the dictionary definition , the Armored Polar bear was 'exclusive' the first time it came out in the Corrupted black ice zen market giveaway thing ,until the recent spender event at least where they once again described it as 'exclusive'.
It's kind of funny though, I was fully prepared to spend my money on a cool mod 4 50 dollar pack that came with a cool mount, companion, and AD like the feywild pack. And now they get nothing from me... bold move cryptic.
Me too my friend, me too. I was excited to get a new epic/legendary mount, companion etc just like the fetwild pack which I got; however just for 1 race... Absolutely no way, I mean. Come on, really pw, really?
I'd be happier if this pack came with a mount / companion like Knight of the Feywild did.
That said, it does come with an account wide artifact. That's a nice thing to have. Once we hit protector's enclave, we'll be able to slot it, and start refining all those grade 1 and 2 enchant drops right away.
You figure, if you're going to 60, and plan to do a little endgame, you'll want 3 artifacts. You get 1 free at lvl 21. You can buy one off the AH, but they're usually 250k+ AD.
It's also a nice slot holder, while you're grinding glory for the pvp artifact.
If you make a few alts, the pack makes a bit more sense. I intend to play each of the classes to 60. 7 classes when Mod 4 drops.
Call it 250k AD each, and you're at 1.75M AD. On the ZAX, that would cost you 3500 Zen ( $35 bucks, give or take ).
Lop that cost off the top, and the $75 dollar race becomes a $40 dollar race.
what they are doing setting prices this high is akin to trying to fish using a small net with big holes.
it's the same with regards to zen, absurd zen costs are turning people off paying into the game. set the tariff lower to a more reasonable level and see what happens.
While I don't expect they will ever offer up the race for free. I'm holding out hope that if sales prove dismal enough. They might be forced to reduce the price below the current sale price. It's not a very likely chance, but Cryptic has lowered prices on things in the past. So, at the very least, the possibity exists
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fr3akout3Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 72
I'd be happier if this pack came with a mount / companion like Knight of the Feywild did.
That said, it does come with an account wide artifact. That's a nice thing to have. Once we hit protector's enclave, we'll be able to slot it, and start refining all those grade 1 and 2 enchant drops right away.
You figure, if you're going to 60, and plan to do a little endgame, you'll want 3 artifacts. You get 1 free at lvl 21. You can buy one off the AH, but they're usually 250k+ AD.
It's also a nice slot holder, while you're grinding glory for the pvp artifact.
If you make a few alts, the pack makes a bit more sense. I intend to play each of the classes to 60. 7 classes when Mod 4 drops.
Call it 250k AD each, and you're at 1.75M AD. On the ZAX, that would cost you 3500 Zen ( $35 bucks, give or take ).
Lop that cost off the top, and the $75 dollar race becomes a $40 dollar race.
Ahmmm you know that each class gets a free artifact at lvl 60 that every character can have in your account? You can actually choose which artifact you want slotted from low lvl (if you start a new char) which are very good.
Did they ever state the final stats at legendary for the artifact, cuz on neverwinter wiki is says power defense and regen but the pack show it with crit anyone know?
That said, it does come with an account wide artifact. That's a nice thing to have.
Depends very much if you can use it to refine other artifacts or not. If not, then it hardly seems to be a huge bonus when you can get class artifacts...
Comments
But this? This price cannot be justified. It just can't. The developer post on reddit referred to upstream is insulting to my intelligence. Do they seriously believe they have to cater to the 1% in order to make money? Why are Cryptic's other two MMOs, both of which use a hybrid F2P/subscription model, still running then?
Were Dragonborn available as a stand-alone purchase at $20 I would pay it. It is, if I dare use this word on the internet, inconceivable to think that the company would not make more money at the lower price. I was really looking forward to this race and briefly considered buying the pack but then withholding further purchases for eight months. That would be a bad decision, though, as purchasing this pack will only encourage the company to continue the practice. So I've come to a different and frankly difficult decision.
While I will likely continue to play Neverwinter I am done paying to do so, at least until such time as I see some indication that the company has reconsidered the game's pricing structure. Things in this area have been trending the wrong way for a while now in many small ways. I would say the Dragonborn Legend pack was the straw that broke the camel's back but really it's more like the 2x4 that crushed the kitten.
What i do have, is that i just cant do that X)) cause some individual accidantely banned Russia from ability to buy packs. However my country is not even in a banned list.
Many folks here would by it. 100$ is not much.
Doesn't Russia have it's own server? if it does that might be why you cannot buy stuff for the international server.
Very likely you have to go to the Russian site to buy for the Russian server.
The other possibility is that the pack as presented to the international server does not conform to Russian Laws (the reason why Russia has its own server system) and the pack will be released for them at a later point in time.
I don't agree with these packs though, it would be alot more accessible and profitable if they broke things down and made it into micro-transactions. E.G. unlock drow for $15, dragonborne $25, those special enchantments $5, unique transmutes/cosmetics for $5 etc etc.
Then people can pick and choose what fits them, the ones who want to spend loads can just buy these "bundles packs"
Because right now, its either pay big or don't pay at all, there is no middle ground = lost market segment.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
I'm pretty sure the Dragonborn will be exclusive, though. With the drow, they said from the start that there would be a free version, and with the elves, not only did they have the wood elves already in existence, but they stated the release of the sun elf right alongside the moon elf. There's been no mention of a free version of the Dragonborn. It has been one of the most highly requested races, though, so that's probably why they felt they could put it behind a paywall. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if a class, such as Paladin, were also made pay to play.
RainFeather- Dragonborn DC
Rune Fell- Drow CW
I thought (may be wrong though) that a Dev said that all classes and content would always be free.
We are essentially paying for the DRAGON Born Race
Can some one tell me where this Dragon born race is ? All i see is a Lizard/Snake Race
Tera's Dragon/Aman race is what i would refer to as a dragon race not this snake frilly lizard Appearance
Your expectations may be off on what to expect. The screenshots on the page for the pack look pretty accurate to me when compared with what pops up when you search for D&D Dragonborn in Google.
The Silver Sword - NW-DEIPWYISA - Daily Qualified
A Relaxing Stay - NW-DEEYNZYZ9 - Daily Qualified but going to be updated
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
Hack....we do have Russian server....but it looks like a reservation for native americans....beg me pardon.....
I'm not fond of playing together with our folk cause there are lots of lads hwo just not seem to but be stupid and cruel and stuff.
I like international community...it's way more friendly and else.
So it's abit frustrating....
Russian players used to have an ability to buy pack playing on euro shard as long as we had no ru server....and after arc release we were banned and have no oppurtunity to buy packs for EU server.
Russian players used to have an ability to buy pack playing on euro shard as long as we had no ru server....and after arc release we were banned and have no oppurtunity to buy packs for EU server.
I enjoy playing with EU and Americans, Turkish and else rather then with Russians....but there are cool Russian guys on EU who also do not want to go to ru server cause it is no SPARTA there....it's totall MADNESS
So it's not agains laws and it's not likely because we have ru shard. Even our community manager says it's some kinda mistake that guys who stayed on EU server are banned from buying packs.
You have a good point? Sir!
It would surprise me. It was stated in interview by PWE CEO (Back in February or March, 2013) that Classes will always be free to play. Though things change, it really would surprise me if a class were put behind a paywall.
As for the Dragonborn pack: go ahead and call me a "whale" or whatever you want. I bought one and I'm happy I did. Here's a couple points to consider, just food for thought, folks:
Why include another freakin' Companion? I have *too many* companions - all are account-wide through other packs and bonus rewards. I don't need another companion and if this pack included one it would frankly *lower the value* of the pack from my perspective. If you want to buy a pack that comes with a companion there are four others already available - buy one of those.
True, the Dragnonborn race is a "cosmetic" change, but having modeled in 3D myself for years I look at the example images and I can't help but feel there is a lot more to it. The body shapes are drastically different from all other race models - not the textures, mind you, but that actual body shapes. This leads me to believe there was a *lot* of extra work involved, creating armor and costumes and whatnot. Sure, I could be completely wrong, but it would be a massive undertaking to create all that stuff in such a way as to be compatible with existing model mesh shape and the new one. I dunno - I just hope there is quality there (no clipping, etc.).
The price of the pack is highly subjective. First of all $100 isn't all that much. But I'm an "old <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" (Age 52) - so I make enough discretionary money I can buy it. I know many of you are less than 30-somethings and that same amount is a lot "higher" percentage of your discretionary income than it would be for me. But also the "value" of the pack is subjective.
Everyone is looking at it as "buying the race with trinkets added-in". I see it differently: I am buying all the "trinkets: and the playable race is "added-in". The Dragonborn race is the bonus coming with the other stuff. Now consider the prices of all these other things, such as the Artifact if they were sold in the Auction House. I would hope you get my point.
If Dragonborn is the most-requested playable race then it's simply good business to charge people for it. This *is* business, not a charity as was mentioned above. So the question is: at what price point to sell it? It's a statistical fact that $20 and less is an "impulse buy" (people will just throw $20 around willy-nilly) - but $100 and less is a "careless buy" - very low percolation time in consideration before spending - meaning the buyer considers benefit first, value second.
So by adding in all the trinkets to make it a whole package - Cryptic raises the value of the package. Buy pricing it at the $100 point fewer people will buy it (yet they'll make the same money) - makes it "rarer" in-game, increasing the value even more for those willing to buy the package. Example: Black Ice Warhorse and Tenser's Disk Mounts in the AH: They are *Rare* - they sell between 17 and 30 Million and they *are* selling. Hence - the "rarity" of an item increases the worth.
Finally: this is not "pay-to-win" as some have hinted at. Playing a Dragonborn race will give no one any advantage over anyone else. You can play and "win" the game 100% without spending a single dime. So enough with that nonsense.
I could say "hey, I'm supporting the game studio by buying this stuff so you guys can play for free!" -BUNK. Truth: I'm selfish. I'm buying this stuff for myself because I want it. Supporting the studio and allowing others to play for free is just a side-benefit, PWE's business model. However, the good news is that the onus is on them: they must create high-quality stuff that people are willing to pay for or the whole house will collapse. Fortunately, they are building high-quality stuff people are willing to pay for. So you detractors and naysayers can whine and cry and complain and notch all you want - it won't change anything. But if shouting out your disapproval makes you feel better then fair enough.
Hm....and what about paragon paths ?
In DDO they have rare paragon paths for cash.
If the Dragonborn race had been added separately for $25, you'd have threads all over this place complaining that $25 is ridiculous for just a race. "It should be $5 or $10! Just imagine HOW many people would buy the race at $10, they'd make sure much more money!"
Right? Yeah. Probably.
PWE is a business, and they've been really successful with their F2P model. I have to imagine they have a lot of data about what people purchase and at what prices, and they used that to price the Dragonborn pack.
It's one thing for us to post on this forum and say what we WOULD do. It's another to be behind the scenes at PWE and see what people ACTUALLY do.
EDIT: And to another poster, here's the inteview with Jack Emmert (CEO of Cryptic) on classes being free. Keep in mind he just said "classes": http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setView/videos/gameID/634/videoId/3021
Yeah I was thinking the same thing , Cryptic's definition of 'exclusive' seems to be different than the dictionary definition , the Armored Polar bear was 'exclusive' the first time it came out in the Corrupted black ice zen market giveaway thing ,until the recent spender event at least where they once again described it as 'exclusive'.
Me too my friend, me too. I was excited to get a new epic/legendary mount, companion etc just like the fetwild pack which I got; however just for 1 race... Absolutely no way, I mean. Come on, really pw, really?
That said, it does come with an account wide artifact. That's a nice thing to have. Once we hit protector's enclave, we'll be able to slot it, and start refining all those grade 1 and 2 enchant drops right away.
You figure, if you're going to 60, and plan to do a little endgame, you'll want 3 artifacts. You get 1 free at lvl 21. You can buy one off the AH, but they're usually 250k+ AD.
It's also a nice slot holder, while you're grinding glory for the pvp artifact.
If you make a few alts, the pack makes a bit more sense. I intend to play each of the classes to 60. 7 classes when Mod 4 drops.
Call it 250k AD each, and you're at 1.75M AD. On the ZAX, that would cost you 3500 Zen ( $35 bucks, give or take ).
Lop that cost off the top, and the $75 dollar race becomes a $40 dollar race.
it's the same with regards to zen, absurd zen costs are turning people off paying into the game. set the tariff lower to a more reasonable level and see what happens.
Ahmmm you know that each class gets a free artifact at lvl 60 that every character can have in your account? You can actually choose which artifact you want slotted from low lvl (if you start a new char) which are very good.
Depends very much if you can use it to refine other artifacts or not. If not, then it hardly seems to be a huge bonus when you can get class artifacts...