I just wanna ask i have GF too i made it in beta(you can chek this if y want ) ,but i see devs over buffing CW/HR/GF .
Yesterday i was thinking the game will be balanced but now i am not soo sure .
I think this is too much if y do this after mod 4 all will ask nerf GF and i dont want this .
The KV change was cool but i think this will lead to total extinction of GWFs.
Give much lower bonuses pls .
I dont think all GF palying ppl agree with this change .
I want to play GF but if you owerbuff it and nerf it agan i dont think i will never spend money on this game .
First you eliminated Stalvart i lost 70mill AD and this was in mod 1 where rank 8 echants was much more worth.
Then i maked GWF. Nerfed it buffed it nerfed it buffed it and finaly maked GWF not desire for me agan i lost here more then 200kk .
But if i spend some money now agan for my GF, and you will turn it back to garbage agan i am not sure this is the game for me.
I dont have Dagobert Duck at home.
For months people filled dozen of threads asking these same things that Chris and his team8s in Cryptic finally implemented.
Untill then experienced GFs quitted or deleted their chars.And you come here and say that you do not want these changes??
What op you are talking about?Yesterday a GWF hit me with Savage Advance for 20k damage from which with his buffs 14k passed through.While i was prone he killed me.And you think if GFs CONTROL (yes GW and KB are control powers) get a buff ,GF will be op?
I do not saw you complain about the daze strike of the Trs or the roar of the GWf..Or the stun immunity of the Trs while in the 3 sec of DF animation..Where you were then? Somehow you seem only to have an interest the GF not to be buffed...pfff
"but i see devs over buffing CW/HR/GF"....another worried masqueraded GWf.....:( .Friend play your toon.UInstop nerfs were reversed.You will still have easy time with your Op GWF.leave Gfs alone!!
0
Options
schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
For months people filled dozen of threads asking these same things that Chris and his team8s in Cryptic finally implemented.
Untill then experienced GFs quitted or deleted their chars.And you come here and say that you do not want these changes??
What op you are talking about?Yesterday a GWF hit me with Savage Advance for 20k damage from which with his buffs 14k passed through.While i was prone he killed me.And you think if GFs CONTROL (yes GW and KB are control powers) get a buff ,GF will be op?
I do not saw you complain about the daze strike of the Trs or the roar of the GWf..Or the stun immunity of the Trs while in the 3 sec of DF animation..Where you were then? Somehow you seem only to have an interest the GF not to be buffed...pfff
"but i see devs over buffing CW/HR/GF"....another worried masqueraded GWf.....:( .Friend play your toon.UInstop nerfs were reversed.You will still have easy time with your Op GWF.leave Gfs alone!!
I have GF and i play it from beta until now .
I just not want to waist agan money .
After mod4 all will come to forums and ask nerfs for GF make sure this is final and no more nerfs will hit GF.
And i think this is too much this i all .
epclipseingmoonMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
The only people that will complain are the GWFs because we will be hard to kill but not unkillable. Also your main is a GWF I see so thats why you want us to remain nerfed to remove any chance of fair competition.
Let me ask you this were the GWFS nerfed when everyone complains about them?
Guardian Fighter: Into the Fray: Into the Fray now also increases the damage of affected players by 50% of the Guardian Fighter's base Damage Resistance.
Guardian Fighter: Into the Fray: Ranking this power up now also grants +25% of your DR as damage bonus.
So that means 50% of base DR as bonus damage PLUS 25% of total DR (minus base?) as damage bonus?!
For Knee breaker and Griffon's Wrath, could the range of the powers be increased by 1' as you will miss any moving target at present using them?
Griffon's Wrath (and Ray of Enfeeblement Mastery) also suffer from unintended double casts, where if you press the button once, it will use the power twice
On an unrelated note, Armor Specialization Heroic Feat effect will not appear on character sheet
Dont know about the Ray but GW casts twice only when you forget to stop pressing the button
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
So, currently if a GF wants to do some damage in PVP/PVE he has to be a Conqueror. That more or less balances things in PVP ( trade off damage for defences ). With your latest changes however a super tough Protector who build for 50%+ DR and close to 50k HP will be able to slot LS + BC/AoD/GW/KB/Flourish and ItF and suddendly you have a walking vault who can also hit like a truck and move very fast for 8 seconds. Add a VM on top of that for good measure, add a DC too and this is what the premades will look like. Funny how things change so drastically all of a sudden
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
arent we exaggerating a bit? the damage buffs are way to high in pvp on a toon with over 50k hp
50k is not possible. If you are talking about open world then that does not count. The open world enviroment cannot be used to measure builds/classes there are too many variables and unbalanced companion combinations.
For those of you dueling in openworld to "test" things, your data is useless unless you have taken off all of your companions/pots/ect. and your opponent has done the same.
So, currently if a GF wants to do some damage in PVP/PVE he has to be a Conqueror. That more or less balances things in PVP ( trade off damage for defences ). With your latest changes however a super tough Protector who build for 50%+ DR and close to 50k HP will be able to slot LS + BC/AoD/GW/KB/Flourish and ItF and suddendly you have a walking vault who can also hit like a truck and move very fast for 8 seconds. Add a VM on top of that for good measure, add a DC too and this is what the premades will look like. Funny how things change so drastically all of a sudden
Its very hard to tell how these changes will effect the PvP meta. Every class is changing, some very drastically, this Mod. Also an entire new Class is being added, along with more gear/artifacts/ect ect.
Hopefully these changes will get to Test in a reasonable amount of time, and the domination que will be fixed, only then will we see how it all actually works togeather. Don't forget that testing in open world is NOT reliable in the least. There will have to be actual orginized 5 man domination matches to see how everything synergizes.
Until then it is all useless conjecture, theories, and opinions.
50k is not possible. If you are talking about open world then that does not count. The open world enviroment cannot be used to measure builds/classes there are too many variables and unbalanced companion combinations.
For those of you dueling in openworld to "test" things, your data is useless unless you have taken off all of your companions/pots/ect. and your opponent has done the same.
50k is not possible. If you are talking about open world then that does not count. The open world enviroment cannot be used to measure builds/classes there are too many variables and unbalanced companion combinations.
For those of you dueling in openworld to "test" things, your data is useless unless you have taken off all of your companions/pots/ect. and your opponent has done the same.
If you hop on preview you will quickly learn that instead of 2 max hp for each pint of Con, it is now 4.
So even not stacking any Max Health at all on my GF I have 40k hp, which is plus 60%. There are min/max GFs with BIS running 50k on live!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
If you hop on preview you will quickly learn that instead of 2 max hp for each pint of Con, it is now 4.
So even not stacking any Max Health at all on my GF I have 40k hp, which is plus 60%. There are min/max GFs with BIS running 50k on live!
That is true; I too saw one of such fully geared Guardian Fighters on Preview with over 50.000 HP. He seemed quite robust but I do not see any reason that the tanking class has to get "Best-In-Slot gear" to be so robust as other classes seem to have an easier time to reach such a state of robustness. (He had Rank 10 enchantments, Purified Black Ice gear, three Legendary Artefacts.)
I like the changes of everything, the only thing I would say seems OP is the Temp HP + AP + ~50% Damage in 1 Encounter, but all the other things seems right for me.
The temp hp is so small it doesn't even matter and i dont think the AP gain is a lot either so now its just a buff to speed and dmg and i think that is fair since we have very bad dmg and not that great defense at least we have a good team skill so we are wanted more for dungeons and groups.
Actually 25% more power equals 25% more damage (compared to baseline).
Yes its 25% more damage OF the damage power gives you. That does not equal 25% more damage. For some people this WIDELY scales on how much benefit this actually is.
Someone with 3k power benefits ALOT less than someone with 6k power - as should be obvious.
Id really love some discussion around what I porposed:
OPTION 1) Stat re-work
CON = HP/ARP/AP gain
DEX = 1% deflect/.5% Crit
AC BOOSTED: 3%DR for every 2AC
OPTION 2) TAB re-work.
- Increase ALL weapon damage 15- 20% (this accounts for the "mark" damage) - solves a major issue with the class/enchants.
- Put Knights Valor on Tab.
- Make all "mark" abilities have a fixed duration (like Enforced Threat) that perform LIKE Tab Mark in that it gives all allies CA (maybe it already does this)
MAYBE this will make GFs too strong. The biggest thing I am concerned about is just playing a buff bot who runs around with three non-damage encounters because its better for the group and just spamming at wills.
It seems like it would be MORE fun/MORE fair if the damage from mark was just moved to weapon damage, gives GFs more options on weapon enchants. If Knights Valor (a staple encounter now) would be a tab ability, giving the GF more flexibility to customize his play style.
Even DPS Conqs could get huge benefit from the DR boost KV gives. They would also be able to have some "tanky" added value to groups as well. So its not JUST a PVE or group mechanic.
I just think this would be a more fun playstyle and make the game more exciting without REALLY changing much about the power of GFs (besides maybe making weapon enchants scale slightly better).
I just read and caught up on the proposed changes... holy...
I'm just...
SQUEEEEEEEEE!!!!!
Seriously though, wow. Any word yet on the guard rework?
nope it is still broken and does not take into account your DR deflect teneacity the last we heard they were aware that it's bugged but no date on when it's suppose to be fixed so far it's been pushed back 2 updates now and mod 4 is getting closer and closer so hopefully crush will answer that one.
I don't know if this is the place or not for this...
The Empire set. Assuming 5% DR aura for party is what it is supposed to mean. It still is way less useful for the party than the KC set. DC's and CW's and GWF's are seeing the same thing. Please don't react and nerf the good sets. If you are going to give one armor set per expansion, please make it an upgrade. If the set bonus's are too hard to scale, etc, make it a lesser version, so you can weigh it against the increased stats. But as it is, DC's are still going to use HP, I am still going to use KC, etc.
I understand you are in a pickle with power creep. But you have to understand the frustration with having 4 modules come out, all without gear upgrades. I repeat that nerfs are not the answer. You have to balance the stat increases on the new armor, with a lesser set bonus. Right now, and for all previous modules, the set bonus's have not even come close to those pieces of gear's set bonus.
Agreed. Yes the power creep should be kept in mind, which TBH is why id be MORE infavor of NON-set items for future mods. Which have excellent individual stats and posisbly overload slots etc, which let the players pick their own pieces without having to completely out-do an entire set.
Sets DONT have to have bonuses and in fact, I think part of the item limitation/frustration in this game is because of sets are pretty much ALL you can play with. You have to then farm all 4 pieces to even be able to USE items.
If you remove set bonuses from future gear but just make each piece stronger individually, OR heck you can even make a "scale-able" set bonus - this would help itemization AND power creep. Since instead of having to "out do" older set bonuses, you make individual stronger items.
FYI - alot of sets that are favored are this way because of diminishing returns. So you cant JUST stack tons of ONE stat, but creating a full balance of stats on gear is what makes options. SOME of this was seen with blackice gear in that each piece offered different bonuses.
I could easily see future sets, however, having ALOT of stats but maybe not AS much in each one. Then players can enchant themselves what thye are missing.
Another way to easily address this is create the weapon BONUS to be an extra enchant slot that unlocks.
So the two piece set item for a weapon could be an extra offensive slot.
Armor 2 pc can be defensive slot.
The temp hp is so small it doesn't even matter and i dont think the AP gain is a lot either so now its just a buff to speed and dmg and i think that is fair since we have very bad dmg and not that great defense at least we have a good team skill so we are wanted more for dungeons and groups.
Yeah, but only the +50% damage to the entire party seems a little OP, I don't wanna a bunch of ppl in mod 4 saying that GF have to be nerfed, I like all the changes that they've made (maybe there are a little things I would change, but I like the 80% of everything they have made for Mod 4), but that +50% damage to 5 ppl is something I can see that's gonna make more than 1 person asking for nerf us.
Yeah, but only the +50% damage to the entire party seems a little OP, I don't wanna a bunch of ppl in mod 4 saying that GF have to be nerfed, I like all the changes that they've made (maybe there are a little things I would change, but I like the 80% of everything they have made for Mod 4), but that +50% damage to 5 ppl is something I can see that's gonna make more than 1 person asking for nerf us.
yeah i can see that...everyone wont like the gf having a space in dungeons lol so they will cry for us having a nerf then we will be back to the start again
They will see. DC's buff/debuff more than we will with our two encounters (KV/IF). We will be doing very similar damage to the DC now, since we will only have 1 encounter for damage up (enforced threat). DC may even beat us, cuz even their buffs/debuffs (Divine glow) do damage.
That is assuming KV is a valid way to go. Is SD + SoS still bugged?
What is the timeline for having the updated tact/prot capstones up on preview. Lotsa testing to be done there...
They will see. DC's buff/debuff more than we will with our two encounters (KV/IF). We will be doing very similar damage to the DC now, since we will only have 1 encounter for damage up (enforced threat). DC may even beat us, cuz even their buffs/debuffs (Divine glow) do damage.
That is assuming KV is a valid way to go. Is SD + SoS still bugged?
What is the timeline for having the updated tact/prot capstones up on preview. Lotsa testing to be done there...
This is exactly why I posted by two things above. While the GF can help mitigate damage and buff the team's damage. If a DC can mitigate damage and buffs teams damage well be right back where we are now.
I think PART of the issue is that now KV so so powerful, same with into the fray, that it only leaves 1 encounter slot left to do anything. The only real thing I can think of would be to make KV our tab function. This allows a GF to use into the fray and now have TWO encounter slots - which opens up alot of play styles.
While I really like the changes- ALOT, I would love to see a more "open" encounter option choice for GFs. Maybe im out of line asking for that change but I think it would really be useful.
The limit of 3 encounters is here to force us to make choices.
It will be nice if we have enough good encounters to feel a bit restricted by this limit. Why do you have to present this like a bad thing ?
And why would you feel obliged to choose both KV and ItF ? Choose only one if you feel too restricted.
Olaf, freelance guardian fighter.
Enorla, Oh so devoted cleric.
I think there are options. Right now, it is NOWHERE near required to run KV. People dodge, get in the circle etc. Now imagine with better damage from GF, and better agro (even without KV). Unless you run a deflect/iron maiden type build, I am not sure I would run KV all the time, and even then you may be better off with lunging strike, or anvil on single target/etc.
Right now you dont need a tank, and people get by. A tank wasnt viable, because of poor agro, can't tank aoe's etc. Permanent KV fixes that (fixes=makes it viable), it doesnt make it required.
If our group is iffy, yeah, KV will be on to make a smoother run. If not, I will load up and add a tiny bit more dps/control. Isn't that what a tank/support class should do?
The changes are far reaching. Agro/Increased damage/KV/IF/Block. I think there are way more options than before.
The limit on the encounters is what brings the balance, even Crush thought so. Yeah, if you run KV/IF you are realy helping the group, but not contributing much else. Again, isnt that what a tank/support class is? I played a paladin in eq, and if i forgot to turn attack on, nobody would notice, not even me lmao. And that was ok.
I think there are options. Right now, it is NOWHERE near required to run KV. People dodge, get in the circle etc. Now imagine with better damage from GF, and better agro (even without KV). Unless you run a deflect/iron maiden type build, I am not sure I would run KV all the time, and even then you may be better off with lunging strike, or anvil on single target/etc.
Right now you dont need a tank, and people get by. A tank wasnt viable, because of poor agro, can't tank aoe's etc. Permanent KV fixes that (fixes=makes it viable), it doesnt make it required.
If our group is iffy, yeah, KV will be on to make a smoother run. If not, I will load up and add a tiny bit more dps/control. Isn't that what a tank/support class should do?
The changes are far reaching. Agro/Increased damage/KV/IF/Block. I think there are way more options than before.
The limit on the encounters is what brings the balance, even Crush thought so. Yeah, if you run KV/IF you are realy helping the group, but not contributing much else. Again, isnt that what a tank/support class is? I played a paladin in eq, and if i forgot to turn attack on, nobody would notice, not even me lmao. And that was ok.
Gotta think of this in (hopefully) light of new and much harder dungeons.
Also this is from a PVE perspective- we also have PVP as well. KV isnt "mandatory" but it is very strong. I LIKE the "choice" and understand the "tradeoffs" but I merely forsee GFs getting pigeonholed in both PVE and PVP. In PVP KV is going to be crucial to some scenarios (mid) and it just seems like two issues GFs have always had are:
1) Lackluster Tab
2) Low weapon damage
So they gave us a better mark which DOES help, we get 20% more damage. Great. But my solution helps solve BOTH problems without frankly making any MAJOR buffs to the class. We would STILL have a ton of choices in encounters. But now we would have higher weapon damage as well as a very strong tab ability. This opens up more gameplay options for encounters for both PVE and PVP.
The tab/mark thing isnt BAD, especially now with a boost, but its not fantastic either - heck im basically asking the DEVs for a "mastery" slot here - which is why again I dont think its OP. Just we dont choose which encounter to slot there.
It will probably never get done, so ill just drop it here. But I still think it would be a fantastic move for GFs. DPS or not, gives the GF a true "guardian" tab function.
BTW - mark in PnP allows you to interrupt enemies if they dont attack you. That would be another avenue to take but probably OP for PVP.
I think there are options. Right now, it is NOWHERE near required to run KV. People dodge, get in the circle etc. Now imagine with better damage from GF, and better agro (even without KV). Unless you run a deflect/iron maiden type build, I am not sure I would run KV all the time, and even then you may be better off with lunging strike, or anvil on single target/etc.
Right now you dont need a tank, and people get by. A tank wasnt viable, because of poor agro, can't tank aoe's etc. Permanent KV fixes that (fixes=makes it viable), it doesnt make it required.
If our group is iffy, yeah, KV will be on to make a smoother run. If not, I will load up and add a tiny bit more dps/control. Isn't that what a tank/support class should do?
The changes are far reaching. Agro/Increased damage/KV/IF/Block. I think there are way more options than before.
The limit on the encounters is what brings the balance, even Crush thought so. Yeah, if you run KV/IF you are realy helping the group, but not contributing much else. Again, isnt that what a tank/support class is? I played a paladin in eq, and if i forgot to turn attack on, nobody would notice, not even me lmao. And that was ok.
You say it; with all the changes we could do a bit more single target damage or give more support or help mitigating the damage. We could do even two of these things, give single target damage or support or give support and mitigate damage or do single target damage and mitigate damage but the Guardian Fighter will be far away from being a perfect tank.
Till now, every class gets some place to fill out in a dungeon and after months of calling the Guardians useless, rubbish, now some come already around the corner and talk about nerfs and exaggeration? Before being able to test it at all? Other classes do double or triple the damage of a Guardian or even more and now, they call these buffs an exaggeration? A buff for a class unable to compete in other respects with other classes.
...
The tab/mark thing isnt BAD, especially now with a boost, but its not fantastic either - heck im basically asking the DEVs for a "mastery" slot here - which is why again I dont think its OP. Just we dont choose which encounter to slot there.
It will probably never get done, so ill just drop it here. But I still think it would be a fantastic move for GFs. DPS or not, gives the GF a true "guardian" tab function.
...
The only problem would be that the developers made clear before all the changes that they do not want to overhaul the class; and definitely adding a unique slot for a class requires more testing and revamping than the developers are able and willing to spend, no? Especially in light of requests from other classes who would want a piece of the cake too.
You say it; with all the changes we could do a bit more single target damage or give more support or help mitigating the damage. We could do even two of these things, give single target damage or support or give support and mitigate damage or do single target damage and mitigate damage but the Guardian Fighter will be far away from being a perfect tank.
Till now, every class gets some place to fill out in a dungeon and after months of calling the Guardians useless, rubbish, now some come already around the corner and talk about nerfs and exaggeration? Before being able to test it at all? Other classes do double or triple the damage of a Guardian or even more and now, they call these buffs an exaggeration? A buff for a class unable to compete in other respects with other classes.
The only problem would be that the developers made clear before all the changes that they do not want to overhaul the class; and definitely adding a unique slot for a class requires more testing and revamping than the developers are able and willing to spend, no? Especially in light of requests from other classes who would want a piece of the cake too.
Very good points. I agree with your comments on my suggestions too. Hence why I said I would stop, because its highly unlikely the changes would happen.
Guardians finally DO provide a function in groups. I think KV will be more of an "equal GS" function where lower GS GFs who run with parties of lower GS as well will rely on KV to run content.
That said if you out gear content you can get by without it. With more challenging content it will probably be more needed.
The main point of my recommendation is to fix the two major issues plaguing GFs since the beginning of time (in this game). Low weapon damage and a lack luster mark. Even now with the changes these are STILL issues we face. Sure we get more damage from mark - which HELPS make up the weapon damage, but it takes our tab function to do so?
Just seems like there is huge potential for the class in that area, especially with such low enchant options all based around weapon damage.... Oh well.... Atleast its many steps in the right direction.
PVP is a main area that I am more concerned with given I PVP alot, my feedback there is while these changes are VERY strong for group play, I just wish it would be SLIGHTLY less of a damage loss to run some group buffs. I have always thought (and posted this same suggestion over a year ago) that tab should be either swapped to a weaker knights challenge (then KC to be repalced) or Knights Valor. That is more of the role of the GF and provides alot of benefits. Mark is just MEH if we can get the damage in the form of weapon damage.
Actually 25% more power equals 25% more damage (compared to baseline).
Actually you don't because everyone has 100% damage that doesn't come from power, and you only buff the bonus damage from power with KC.
For example case 1)
if someone has enough power for +10% damage from power, then their damage multiplier which would start at 1.10 moves to 1 + .10*1.25 = 1.125, and relative to baseline you only improved their damage by 2.5%. In terms of power you are buffing ~1800 power to ~2250 power, a gain of 450 power.
On the other hand case 2)
if someone has enough power for 50% bonus to damage, then their damage multiplier would be at 1.50 before buffing, and buffing their power would move them to 1 + .5*1.25 = 1.62 and you buff their relative to base line by 12%. In terms of power you are buffing ~8300 to ~10375, a gain of 2075 power.
In the end, the point is buffing power by a percentage is not as impactful when it is low, and useful when it is high, and the higher it goes the more useful it is relative to "Baseline", but you don't magically buff someone with no powers damage by 25% by proccing KC. It is clear as day when you think about the fact in example one, KC causes power to go up by 450 and in example two it went up by 2075. Gaining 450 power and 2075 power will never be the same relative to 0 power which is the baseline you wanted to compare too.
Neither of these cases +2.5% and +12% is relative to current standings prior to buff. They are both relative to the base line. If they had been relative to current standings (ie before and after parsing) it would have been 1.125/1.10 ~ 1.02 and 1.62/1.52 ~ 1.08.
So actually the more power you have the more you'll gain - as you already said.
0
Options
lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
edited July 2014
Ehm guys, interesting numbers but do you realise that Knight Captain set gives 15% +power and not 25%?
Anyway, suddenly the GF became the GWF's best friend. If they use KC set they increase my dmg by 11% + 50% thanks to ItF, that's a huge boost in DPS, at least for PvE.
Ehm guys, interesting numbers but do you realise that Knight Captain set gives 15% +power and not 25%?
Anyway, suddenly the GF became the GWF's best friend. If they use KC set they increase my dmg by 11% + 50% thanks to ItF, that's a huge boost in DPS, at least for PvE.
It seems that the developers should review some sets of the Guardian Fighter to enable better options for set variety along with these changes for the class itself. At least it seems strange that a T1 set (Knight Captain) still performs better than its T2 counterpart (High General). I mean I can already hear the demands that a Guardian would ought to use the set Knight Captain and woe to the Guardian who tries to use the set High General or another set as she will get kicked for being less effective.
Is the internal cool down needed on High General?
Overall, thank you, developers, to finally give the Guardian Fighter a place in a dungeon team in addition to her overall contribution to a team in both PvP as PvE (although we have to see how usable the changes turn out to be on PvP). I think noone will say in the near future that a Guardian is a waste for a spot another damage dealer could have used.
Comments
For months people filled dozen of threads asking these same things that Chris and his team8s in Cryptic finally implemented.
Untill then experienced GFs quitted or deleted their chars.And you come here and say that you do not want these changes??
What op you are talking about?Yesterday a GWF hit me with Savage Advance for 20k damage from which with his buffs 14k passed through.While i was prone he killed me.And you think if GFs CONTROL (yes GW and KB are control powers) get a buff ,GF will be op?
I do not saw you complain about the daze strike of the Trs or the roar of the GWf..Or the stun immunity of the Trs while in the 3 sec of DF animation..Where you were then? Somehow you seem only to have an interest the GF not to be buffed...pfff
"but i see devs over buffing CW/HR/GF"....another worried masqueraded GWf.....:( .Friend play your toon.UInstop nerfs were reversed.You will still have easy time with your Op GWF.leave Gfs alone!!
You have no clue.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?618291-Feedback-Guardian-Figther&highlight=Guardian
I have GF and i play it from beta until now .
I just not want to waist agan money .
After mod4 all will come to forums and ask nerfs for GF make sure this is final and no more nerfs will hit GF.
And i think this is too much this i all .
Let me ask you this were the GWFS nerfed when everyone complains about them?
Princess Amber - DC
Shieldmaiden Amber - GF
Valkyrie Amber - GWF
Huntress Amber - HR
No way bro, this is going to bring back the old meta! GF/DC holding mid, 2 DPS rotating, 1 back capper, DC or GF rotating as needed.
There will be plenty of other ways to run a 5 man, but it will be nice to see the old meta strong again.
Dont know about the Ray but GW casts twice only when you forget to stop pressing the button
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Actually 25% more power is 25% more damage (against baseline).
E.g.
4000 power = 24%
5000 power = 30%
5000/4000 = 1.25 and 30/24 = 1.25
8000 power = 48%
10000 power = 60%
10000/8000 =1.25 and 60/48 = 1.25
So, currently if a GF wants to do some damage in PVP/PVE he has to be a Conqueror. That more or less balances things in PVP ( trade off damage for defences ). With your latest changes however a super tough Protector who build for 50%+ DR and close to 50k HP will be able to slot LS + BC/AoD/GW/KB/Flourish and ItF and suddendly you have a walking vault who can also hit like a truck and move very fast for 8 seconds. Add a VM on top of that for good measure, add a DC too and this is what the premades will look like. Funny how things change so drastically all of a sudden
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
50k is not possible. If you are talking about open world then that does not count. The open world enviroment cannot be used to measure builds/classes there are too many variables and unbalanced companion combinations.
For those of you dueling in openworld to "test" things, your data is useless unless you have taken off all of your companions/pots/ect. and your opponent has done the same.
Its very hard to tell how these changes will effect the PvP meta. Every class is changing, some very drastically, this Mod. Also an entire new Class is being added, along with more gear/artifacts/ect ect.
Hopefully these changes will get to Test in a reasonable amount of time, and the domination que will be fixed, only then will we see how it all actually works togeather. Don't forget that testing in open world is NOT reliable in the least. There will have to be actual orginized 5 man domination matches to see how everything synergizes.
Until then it is all useless conjecture, theories, and opinions.
not possible? sure
If you hop on preview you will quickly learn that instead of 2 max hp for each pint of Con, it is now 4.
So even not stacking any Max Health at all on my GF I have 40k hp, which is plus 60%. There are min/max GFs with BIS running 50k on live!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
That is true; I too saw one of such fully geared Guardian Fighters on Preview with over 50.000 HP. He seemed quite robust but I do not see any reason that the tanking class has to get "Best-In-Slot gear" to be so robust as other classes seem to have an easier time to reach such a state of robustness. (He had Rank 10 enchantments, Purified Black Ice gear, three Legendary Artefacts.)
The temp hp is so small it doesn't even matter and i dont think the AP gain is a lot either so now its just a buff to speed and dmg and i think that is fair since we have very bad dmg and not that great defense at least we have a good team skill so we are wanted more for dungeons and groups.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Actually 25% more power equals 25% more damage (compared to baseline).
Yes its 25% more damage OF the damage power gives you. That does not equal 25% more damage. For some people this WIDELY scales on how much benefit this actually is.
Someone with 3k power benefits ALOT less than someone with 6k power - as should be obvious.
Id really love some discussion around what I porposed:
OPTION 1) Stat re-work
CON = HP/ARP/AP gain
DEX = 1% deflect/.5% Crit
AC BOOSTED: 3%DR for every 2AC
OPTION 2) TAB re-work.
- Increase ALL weapon damage 15- 20% (this accounts for the "mark" damage) - solves a major issue with the class/enchants.
- Put Knights Valor on Tab.
- Make all "mark" abilities have a fixed duration (like Enforced Threat) that perform LIKE Tab Mark in that it gives all allies CA (maybe it already does this)
MAYBE this will make GFs too strong. The biggest thing I am concerned about is just playing a buff bot who runs around with three non-damage encounters because its better for the group and just spamming at wills.
It seems like it would be MORE fun/MORE fair if the damage from mark was just moved to weapon damage, gives GFs more options on weapon enchants. If Knights Valor (a staple encounter now) would be a tab ability, giving the GF more flexibility to customize his play style.
Even DPS Conqs could get huge benefit from the DR boost KV gives. They would also be able to have some "tanky" added value to groups as well. So its not JUST a PVE or group mechanic.
I just think this would be a more fun playstyle and make the game more exciting without REALLY changing much about the power of GFs (besides maybe making weapon enchants scale slightly better).
nope it is still broken and does not take into account your DR deflect teneacity the last we heard they were aware that it's bugged but no date on when it's suppose to be fixed so far it's been pushed back 2 updates now and mod 4 is getting closer and closer so hopefully crush will answer that one.
Agreed. Yes the power creep should be kept in mind, which TBH is why id be MORE infavor of NON-set items for future mods. Which have excellent individual stats and posisbly overload slots etc, which let the players pick their own pieces without having to completely out-do an entire set.
Sets DONT have to have bonuses and in fact, I think part of the item limitation/frustration in this game is because of sets are pretty much ALL you can play with. You have to then farm all 4 pieces to even be able to USE items.
If you remove set bonuses from future gear but just make each piece stronger individually, OR heck you can even make a "scale-able" set bonus - this would help itemization AND power creep. Since instead of having to "out do" older set bonuses, you make individual stronger items.
FYI - alot of sets that are favored are this way because of diminishing returns. So you cant JUST stack tons of ONE stat, but creating a full balance of stats on gear is what makes options. SOME of this was seen with blackice gear in that each piece offered different bonuses.
I could easily see future sets, however, having ALOT of stats but maybe not AS much in each one. Then players can enchant themselves what thye are missing.
Another way to easily address this is create the weapon BONUS to be an extra enchant slot that unlocks.
So the two piece set item for a weapon could be an extra offensive slot.
Armor 2 pc can be defensive slot.
This lets players pick and choose their own.
Yeah, but only the +50% damage to the entire party seems a little OP, I don't wanna a bunch of ppl in mod 4 saying that GF have to be nerfed, I like all the changes that they've made (maybe there are a little things I would change, but I like the 80% of everything they have made for Mod 4), but that +50% damage to 5 ppl is something I can see that's gonna make more than 1 person asking for nerf us.
yeah i can see that...everyone wont like the gf having a space in dungeons lol so they will cry for us having a nerf then we will be back to the start again
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
That is assuming KV is a valid way to go. Is SD + SoS still bugged?
What is the timeline for having the updated tact/prot capstones up on preview. Lotsa testing to be done there...
This is exactly why I posted by two things above. While the GF can help mitigate damage and buff the team's damage. If a DC can mitigate damage and buffs teams damage well be right back where we are now.
I think PART of the issue is that now KV so so powerful, same with into the fray, that it only leaves 1 encounter slot left to do anything. The only real thing I can think of would be to make KV our tab function. This allows a GF to use into the fray and now have TWO encounter slots - which opens up alot of play styles.
While I really like the changes- ALOT, I would love to see a more "open" encounter option choice for GFs. Maybe im out of line asking for that change but I think it would really be useful.
It will be nice if we have enough good encounters to feel a bit restricted by this limit. Why do you have to present this like a bad thing ?
And why would you feel obliged to choose both KV and ItF ? Choose only one if you feel too restricted.
Enorla, Oh so devoted cleric.
Right now you dont need a tank, and people get by. A tank wasnt viable, because of poor agro, can't tank aoe's etc. Permanent KV fixes that (fixes=makes it viable), it doesnt make it required.
If our group is iffy, yeah, KV will be on to make a smoother run. If not, I will load up and add a tiny bit more dps/control. Isn't that what a tank/support class should do?
The changes are far reaching. Agro/Increased damage/KV/IF/Block. I think there are way more options than before.
The limit on the encounters is what brings the balance, even Crush thought so. Yeah, if you run KV/IF you are realy helping the group, but not contributing much else. Again, isnt that what a tank/support class is? I played a paladin in eq, and if i forgot to turn attack on, nobody would notice, not even me lmao. And that was ok.
Gotta think of this in (hopefully) light of new and much harder dungeons.
Also this is from a PVE perspective- we also have PVP as well. KV isnt "mandatory" but it is very strong. I LIKE the "choice" and understand the "tradeoffs" but I merely forsee GFs getting pigeonholed in both PVE and PVP. In PVP KV is going to be crucial to some scenarios (mid) and it just seems like two issues GFs have always had are:
1) Lackluster Tab
2) Low weapon damage
So they gave us a better mark which DOES help, we get 20% more damage. Great. But my solution helps solve BOTH problems without frankly making any MAJOR buffs to the class. We would STILL have a ton of choices in encounters. But now we would have higher weapon damage as well as a very strong tab ability. This opens up more gameplay options for encounters for both PVE and PVP.
The tab/mark thing isnt BAD, especially now with a boost, but its not fantastic either - heck im basically asking the DEVs for a "mastery" slot here - which is why again I dont think its OP. Just we dont choose which encounter to slot there.
It will probably never get done, so ill just drop it here. But I still think it would be a fantastic move for GFs. DPS or not, gives the GF a true "guardian" tab function.
BTW - mark in PnP allows you to interrupt enemies if they dont attack you. That would be another avenue to take but probably OP for PVP.
You say it; with all the changes we could do a bit more single target damage or give more support or help mitigating the damage. We could do even two of these things, give single target damage or support or give support and mitigate damage or do single target damage and mitigate damage but the Guardian Fighter will be far away from being a perfect tank.
Till now, every class gets some place to fill out in a dungeon and after months of calling the Guardians useless, rubbish, now some come already around the corner and talk about nerfs and exaggeration? Before being able to test it at all? Other classes do double or triple the damage of a Guardian or even more and now, they call these buffs an exaggeration? A buff for a class unable to compete in other respects with other classes.
The only problem would be that the developers made clear before all the changes that they do not want to overhaul the class; and definitely adding a unique slot for a class requires more testing and revamping than the developers are able and willing to spend, no? Especially in light of requests from other classes who would want a piece of the cake too.
Very good points. I agree with your comments on my suggestions too. Hence why I said I would stop, because its highly unlikely the changes would happen.
Guardians finally DO provide a function in groups. I think KV will be more of an "equal GS" function where lower GS GFs who run with parties of lower GS as well will rely on KV to run content.
That said if you out gear content you can get by without it. With more challenging content it will probably be more needed.
The main point of my recommendation is to fix the two major issues plaguing GFs since the beginning of time (in this game). Low weapon damage and a lack luster mark. Even now with the changes these are STILL issues we face. Sure we get more damage from mark - which HELPS make up the weapon damage, but it takes our tab function to do so?
Just seems like there is huge potential for the class in that area, especially with such low enchant options all based around weapon damage.... Oh well.... Atleast its many steps in the right direction.
PVP is a main area that I am more concerned with given I PVP alot, my feedback there is while these changes are VERY strong for group play, I just wish it would be SLIGHTLY less of a damage loss to run some group buffs. I have always thought (and posted this same suggestion over a year ago) that tab should be either swapped to a weaker knights challenge (then KC to be repalced) or Knights Valor. That is more of the role of the GF and provides alot of benefits. Mark is just MEH if we can get the damage in the form of weapon damage.
Actually you don't because everyone has 100% damage that doesn't come from power, and you only buff the bonus damage from power with KC.
For example case 1)
if someone has enough power for +10% damage from power, then their damage multiplier which would start at 1.10 moves to 1 + .10*1.25 = 1.125, and relative to baseline you only improved their damage by 2.5%. In terms of power you are buffing ~1800 power to ~2250 power, a gain of 450 power.
On the other hand case 2)
if someone has enough power for 50% bonus to damage, then their damage multiplier would be at 1.50 before buffing, and buffing their power would move them to 1 + .5*1.25 = 1.62 and you buff their relative to base line by 12%. In terms of power you are buffing ~8300 to ~10375, a gain of 2075 power.
In the end, the point is buffing power by a percentage is not as impactful when it is low, and useful when it is high, and the higher it goes the more useful it is relative to "Baseline", but you don't magically buff someone with no powers damage by 25% by proccing KC. It is clear as day when you think about the fact in example one, KC causes power to go up by 450 and in example two it went up by 2075. Gaining 450 power and 2075 power will never be the same relative to 0 power which is the baseline you wanted to compare too.
Neither of these cases +2.5% and +12% is relative to current standings prior to buff. They are both relative to the base line. If they had been relative to current standings (ie before and after parsing) it would have been 1.125/1.10 ~ 1.02 and 1.62/1.52 ~ 1.08.
Well...
E.g.
4000 power = +24%
5000 power = +30%
5000/4000 = 1.25 and 30/24 = 1.25
or
6000 power = +36%
7500 power = +45%
7500/6000 = 1.25 and 45/36 = 1.25
Both increase by the same amount. 25% more power increases the bonus by 25%.
On the other hand the relative increases in both cases are...
(1.3-1.24)/1.24 = 4.838...%
(1.45-1.36)/1.36 = 6.617...%
So actually the more power you have the more you'll gain - as you already said.
Anyway, suddenly the GF became the GWF's best friend. If they use KC set they increase my dmg by 11% + 50% thanks to ItF, that's a huge boost in DPS, at least for PvE.
It seems that the developers should review some sets of the Guardian Fighter to enable better options for set variety along with these changes for the class itself. At least it seems strange that a T1 set (Knight Captain) still performs better than its T2 counterpart (High General). I mean I can already hear the demands that a Guardian would ought to use the set Knight Captain and woe to the Guardian who tries to use the set High General or another set as she will get kicked for being less effective.
Is the internal cool down needed on High General?
Overall, thank you, developers, to finally give the Guardian Fighter a place in a dungeon team in addition to her overall contribution to a team in both PvP as PvE (although we have to see how usable the changes turn out to be on PvP). I think noone will say in the near future that a Guardian is a waste for a spot another damage dealer could have used.