seventhpillarMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
edited July 2014
FEEDBACK:
Devs, lets make the Renegade Tree viable and this is what I propose:
Energy Recovery:
Because renegade's capstone requires magic missile on live I propose to dial chaos magic back to MM only. To make it useful for us, add 6%/12%/18%/24%/30% damage (or crit chance if damage isn't an option) to magic missile when feated.
Phantasmal Destruction:
change to grant 3.6/7.2/10.8/14.4/18% Critical Severity for 6 seconds and up time to 50%. This will help and give Renegades back the burst damage
Chaos Magic:
add EoTS will also reduce it's internal cooldown -1/-2/-3/-4/-5 seconds. I would keep the EoTS change in the capstone so it will entice others to go down this path. Also, Renegades depends too much on EoTS. Change to proc only when using MM instead of dealing damage.
I think if you change it to something similar to this, it will become very competitive and live back to it's name. Also I know it's a huge buff for not tying to an at-will however, I don't want it to be fully OP. Viable and competitive is the key.
seventhpillar, are you sure the last captsone of renegade only apply with magic missile, it's the case in on live server but the new one seems proc with damage what ever they come from
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seventhpillarMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
edited July 2014
You are right, I was basing it on live, and was going to propose to dial it back to MM too but forgot to mention.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited July 2014
I think NOT having the Renegade capstone tied to Magic Missile is a huge buff...
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited July 2014
Here's a suggestion:
Energy Recovery: Every non-critical hit with an encounter spell reduces the cool down of EotS by .2/.4/.6/.8/1 second.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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seventhpillarMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
I think NOT having the Renegade capstone tied to Magic Missile is a huge buff...
Yes I agree but I want to prevent others from saying, well now this tree is OP. I want to make it viable and competitive. I like your idea on ICD on EoTS, however, if it's too low on the tree, what would entice others to go this route?
well for energy recovery, i need some test, was hoping to test it on the WE but not sure i will have time.
how ever, For PVP (yes for PVP only) it can become really interesting if you can mixt it with some change and equip. it not interesting at all for pve. but well for pvp i can see some potential on it
Tested SS Thaum doing Heroic HE, CoI, icy terrain, steal time, shard. Evocation and EotS Assailant capstone provided good dmg and was of average difficulty
Survivability, average difficulty.
Couple minutes.
Tested SS Renegade Heroic HE, icy terrain, steal time, shard. Evocation and EotS, also tried Evocation and Chilling Advantage with 5 feat points and it was same as Eots (Basicly 5feat points in Chilling Presence = same damage as Nerfed EotS)
Very low damage. Capstone provided mimimal benefit.
Survivability was average difficulty.
Fight took very long.
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aviracaineMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 22Arc User
edited July 2014
Bug: Assailing Force Damage goes through Impossible to Catch-'s damage immunity.
Tested MoF Thaum doing Heroic HE, Fanning the flame, icy terrain, steal time, shard. Critical Conflagration, Swath of Destruction Assailant capstone provided good dmg
Survivability, average difficulty.
Couple minutes.
Tested MoF Renegade Heroic HE, Fanning the Flame, icy terrain, steal time, shard. Critical Conflagration, Swath of Destruction, (replaced swath of destruction and Feated Chilling Advantage) No difference Very low damage. Capstone provided mimimal benefit.
Survivability was average difficulty.
Fight took very long.
Devs, lets make the Renegade Tree viable and this is what I propose:
Energy Recovery:
Because renegade's capstone requires magic missile on live I propose to dial chaos magic back to MM only. To make it useful for us, add 6%/12%/18%/24%/30% damage (or crit chance if damage isn't an option) to magic missile when feated.
Phantasmal Destruction:
change to grant 3.6/7.2/10.8/14.4/18% Critical Severity for 6 seconds and up time to 50%. This will help and give Renegades back the burst damage
Chaos Magic:
add EoTS will also reduce it's internal cooldown -1/-2/-3/-4/-5 seconds. I would keep the EoTS change in the capstone so it will entice others to go down this path. Also, Renegades depends too much on EoTS. Change to proc only when using MM instead of dealing damage.
I think if you change it to something similar to this, it will become very competitive and live back to it's name. Also I know it's a huge buff for not tying to an at-will however, I don't want it to be fully OP. Viable and competitive is the key.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! Esp. to the BIG one. Although i'd rather have 5 sec. ICD on EotS after putting in it 5 points. 10 seconds is far too much.
I might be *****ing about EotS, but I won't quit until I see it useful again. It's just to precious for Spellstorm Renegades. We have no control like Oppressors, no damage like Thauma and no DoT/debuff like MoF. Save Spellstorms and save renegades.
Bids he then the spruces to singer him an anthems!
And the Woodsie Lord binders them fleshes to stone!
oh waw.. this is not encouraging as a cw at all...you are taking all the fun out of being a cw....why not improve the classes up to an equal point instead of nerffing the best down to where no one will care to play anymore?
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! Esp. to the BIG one. Although i'd rather have 5 sec. ICD on EotS after putting in it 5 points. 10 seconds is far too much.
I might be *****ing about EotS, but I won't quit until I see it useful again. It's just to precious for Spellstorm Renegades. We have no control like Oppressors, no damage like Thauma and no DoT/debuff like MoF. Save Spellstorms and save renegades.
Feedback: Eye of the Storm
I have to disagree with you on Eye of the Storm. The entire reason they put a cooldown on it was because it was not merely "useful" it was "massively overpowered." When paired with a Perfect Vorpal it increased a CW's damage output astronomically. Even with a 25 second cooldown and 6 seconds of up time I still find myself slotting it on the preview server because it provides more overall damage than other passives. It also allows me to get 100% crits with my Daily powers since I can just hold them until it procs - which is huge. Providing some mechanism to reduce the cooldown to 5 seconds would defeat the purpose the developers set out with in the beginning - to bring CW damage back in line with other classes. Absolutely everyone would choose that feat because there would be nothing in any other tree remotely comparable. I'm not disagreeing with you that Renegade's need a good once-over to make sure they are as useful as Oppressor's and Thaumaturge's but reducing EoTS to 5 second cooldown is not going to happen. Nor should it. It was way out of line with the damage boost it provided.
Feedback: Eye of the Storm
I have to disagree with you on Eye of the Storm. The entire reason they put a cooldown on it was because it was not merely "useful" it was "massively overpowered." When paired with a Perfect Vorpal it increased a CW's damage output astronomically..
And I have to disagree with you. Let me rephrase this for you.
"When paired with a Perfect Vorpal ($180) it increased a CW's damage output astronomically..
**** right it hurts. When using a perfect vorpal that costs $180+. It ******* well should.
I've been playing this game for over 6 months now, developing my only character, a CW, which I recently respeced, carefully analyzing each feat and boon. I just can't believe that ALL these MAJOR changes are going to take place, which wil have a HUGE impact on the gameplay of almost every CW (if not all). Please read the user comments and consider to reduce the impact of the changes you're proposing, there is a bunch of useful suggestions in this post.
If this goes ahead unchanged I'll just stop playing this game and move on to something else because you will take out the joy of playing it.
It's not going to be fixed with EotS. Both Paragon paths for Renegade are poor. Master of Flame and SpellStorm have extremely low damage. Their feat tree was never as good as Thaum, but now with damage nerf, it's effect on Renegade is compounded.
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seventhpillarMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
Out of Topic: Yeah very constructive feedback there. OK so 15 coal wards for $10 a pop, then maybe getting some refining stones or so so all in all he is not way out of line to say so. Beside the point, he may be saying the price but I think what he's trying to say is a perfect enchantment is hard to get right now especially if you are just starting from the beginning without paying a lot of money to speed the process. Please refrain from posting smart a** remarks that do not add any value.
On Topic: Let me add also, because of the swap of NW, it's a mandatory for Renegade to spend the 5 points in the tree whereas on Thaum/OP, you can get a way with it and still have 10 to mess around with and put somewhere else. There are more "landmine feats" on Renegade than any tree. Suggest reworking them as well or at least have a review and make sure the balance between these feats are equal. Also, why not just move feats around. On the thau, there are 6 really good feats, on renegade, there are 4. So if you move 1 from thau to swap for energy recovery since a lot of thau are using chilling cloud. I'd take tempest magic or malevolent surge and it would work because it is still reachable and low enough on the tree.
Both Paragon paths for Renegade are poor. Master of Flame and SpellStorm have extremely low damage. Their feat tree was never as good as Thaum, but now with damage nerf, it's effect on Renegade is compounded.
Posted this feedback in another CW thread - Did some more testing (as SS), this time with dummies in a controlled environment and thaum pulled ahead, by A LOT, even without nightmare wizardry (thaum had no combat advantage at all).
Tested 6 minutes each, give or take a few seconds, exact same position, same spell setup. HV set with lesser plaguefire.
I might stick with thaum at this rate. Nightmare wizardry from solo testing feels very lacking right now without any changes to the renegade line. Not to mention the capstone is meh at best right now. Having vorpal enchant will probably make renegade a little more attractive but it's still lackluster.
*adding* While thaum is the DPS tree, the difference is substantial. I don't have data on oppressor so I don't know if renegade sits around the same damage, more or less.
Now I'm not calling for any nerfs to thaum at all, but bringing up renegade a bit more on par would be thankful. I understand that currently renegade damage would be "made up" in group play but not at all if you want to do things (dailies) solo.
Encounters: Tabbed Shard, Entangling Force, Chill Strike, Icy Rays
Passives: Storm Spell and Eye of the Storm
Gear, Ability Score, Feats, and Test Dummy
Test
Encounter + At-Will Rotation on Test Dummy on Live and Preview for 8 minutes.
Encounter Max Live Max M4 Reduction Min Live Min M4 Reduction
Shardsplosion
14909
5397
64%
5403
1683
69%
Shard Slam
9733
5458
44%
3264
1669
49%
Ice Knife
33222
27552
17%
10995
10183
7%
Ray of Frost
1655
1539
7%
411
419
0%
Chill Strike
11568
8364
28%
3840
2457
36%
Icy Rays
11389
10194
10.5%
3009
3114
0%
Entangling Force
3335
1938
42%
1102
658
40%
Storm Spell
3614
3379
6.5%
926
848
8%
Feedback
My overall damage was decreased by almost one million for an approximate 39% reduction. This will be further reduced by not being able to take Nightmare Wizardry with my current build.
Shardsplosion critical hit damage for M4 has been reduced to that of non critical hit damage on Live. The damage reduction from aoe heroic feats coupled with the overall 60% nerf completely cripples the encounter in PvP. Reduce the damage nerf or devise a way to keep the damage in PvP while reducing damage in PvE.
Shard Slam is similarly impacted by more than just the 33% flat reduction by over 10%. Low Slam damage is less of a concern than low Shardsplosion damage, but again, dial back the nerf.
Ice Knife is likely being reduced by the proc nerf to Phantasmal Destruction, but should now be benefiting from arp so no real comments.
Ray of Frost and Storm Spell suffer a small amount from the Heroic nerfs.
Chill Strike -- no real comment, but didn't really need a 15% nerf as it is single target use.
Icy Rays -- no comment
Entangling Force is oddly receiving way more than a 10% reduction and more than what I would expect when coupled with the Heroic nerfs. EF didn't need to be reduced as it is also single target use.
Eye of the Storm is proccing about 60% less, and increases my overall crit by 8% less. Dial back the icd to 15-20sec and/or introduce a feat that reduces the icd.
These would be great feat changes and Controlling Action/Battlewise/Lightning Teleport should be looked at. Give the option to increase the radius of Icy Terrain. Renegade still has the short end of the stick -- every tree has useful feats in the first two tiers that can be coupled with a capstone from another tree except for Renegade now that Nightmare Wizardry has been moved. I currently do not use a capstone in my build and while I do not mind changing, it's unfortunate that it will not be a good option anymore.
Bugs
Not sure if they're intended to be treated as different entities, but if EotS procs on your shard slam, then shardsplosion does not crit. Similarly if shard slam crits then shardsplosion will, and the same for non-crits. This also seems to be the case for deflected slam causing deflected splosion and on combat advantage/other effects.
reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
Storm Pillar still is not critting correctly. The smaller bolts of Storm Pillar are not critting when the larger main bolt crits.
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seventhpillarMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
edited July 2014
Biggrin Tomb Run Thaum vs. Rene
Just finished doing some test and logs. All I can say is wow.
Here is the setup. I made sure I didn't tab COI so the setup is the same. Bear in mind the damage could be much higher on thaum if I did tab it.
http://i.imgur.com/U41BpPj.jpg (wow max 4 images? really?) Sorry folks just click on it. It won't let me post unless I remove. I think this is the least important image anyway or whatever.
Now here is the character sheet for thaum:
and here is the renegade:
Notice there is NOTHING different about the two. Same everything, heroics, except the feats. I should have screenied the feats but it's set as follows, Thaum, Tempest Magic, Malevolent Surge, Snap Freeze, Trancendent Master, Elemental Empowerment, Assailing Force and I took Bitter Cold on Oppressor. Renegade, Critical Power, Nightmare Wizardry (not sure why it hasn't moved on my preview), Phantasmal Destruction, Masterful Arcane Theft, Chaos Magic. Then I took Tempest Magic and Malevolent Surge from thaum because nothing else is good on Renegade. I could have taken bitter cold but I feel the two are better with my setup. Also notice that I am not heavily geared but I can say I'm moderate, with a Perfect Vorpal. I am not stacking a ton of powers like 17K CWs out there.
So here are the result. The thaum ACT log:
And the rene ACT log:
Bottom line is, 3M difference. 3M! and this is without tabbing COI. Also it took longer for me to kill mobs with renegade than thaum. Again not very good and with everyone testing and coming to the same conclusion as me, it is not worth staying on this tree if things keeps going the way they are. Now if they had moved NW already, then I could only put Malevolent Surge and I bet I would have lost more DPS and gain nothing because I don't use chilling cloud but I STILL WOULD HAVE TO SPEND POINTS to get to this tree.
Devs, I hope you are reading these feedback we have been providing because I would hate to waste my time for nothing. I am trying to help make this game better for everyone and keeping the balance between the 3 trees.
Forgot to mention, I had to pot on rene because I couldn't kill them fast enough compared to thaum... again another con.
Feedback: Eye of the Storm
I have to disagree with you on Eye of the Storm. The entire reason they put a cooldown on it was because it was not merely "useful" it was "massively overpowered."
I couldn't disagree more. EotS could be overpowering Thaumas, never Renegades. I'm using it on live server all the time, and am still outdpsed by any similarly geared Thauma. Strangely so, mostly Thaumas in HV set (which I have and don't use). But they won't be fixing HV. They will be destroying EotS.
If you watched feedback from preview, you could notice that nobody slotted EotS with 25 ICD. People went Evocation and Spell Storm, now they will go Evocation and Spell storm or Orb of imposition since it's getting buffed. When I did CN run on preview, I replaced EotS with Evocation too, because when EotS came off ICD all my encounters were on CD and it was wasted on at-wills. I'm not going to count to 25 and jump around in epic dungeon, doing nothing, waiting for EotS to be useful. This feat is that much frustrating to use, I also see Evocation much more appealing.
And last but not least: do you feel it's ok for Spellstorm Renegades having every end-tree power useless? Almost nobody uses Maelstrom (Ice knife (even nerfed), Oppressive Force, hell even Ice Storm are better) , Shard has no damage to offer any more, only lots of bugs and clumsiness in use, and EotS is useless for 25 seconds, making Evocation, Orb of Impo. and Spell Storm more attractive since they are working for you all the time.
If EotS had reduced ICD on capstone for renegade tree, it would seam fair. I don't think Thaumas Assailing force has any ICD, and it's pretty OP. It's like replacing EotS with Assailing for them and again making Thauma more attractive. Only renegade Ss has been left in dark forest.
Bids he then the spruces to singer him an anthems!
And the Woodsie Lord binders them fleshes to stone!
I have to disagree with you on Eye of the Storm. The entire reason they put a cooldown on it was because it was not merely "useful" it was "massively overpowered." When paired with a Perfect Vorpal it increased a CW's damage output astronomically.
So now we are justifying nerfing a class based on it's interaction with an enchantment only a small minority of the playerbase has , yes that makes perfect sense.
Heh. If you finally get vorpal and enough crits and enough combat advantage, we shall nerf skills that use those, course you'll be too op. One would fear progressing in this game.
Btw. enchants better then normal ones (greater and perfects) are harder, and harder to get for non-CS gamers. So if for your toil you get depraved of the only one awesome end-game feat, it's very depressing.
Bids he then the spruces to singer him an anthems!
And the Woodsie Lord binders them fleshes to stone!
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dingleberrytruthMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 25Arc User
edited July 2014
Now I'm hearing players saying things like, holding back dailies intentionally just to wait for EoTs. What happened to encouraging fluid gameplay? Played in that manner then it'll still be the same as live, except CWs will be playing as if all their encounters had a 25 second cooldown to accommodate EoTs.
EoTs reworks shouldn't be just for Renegade. Suggestions only work if you're neutral, but the bias is strong in this one.
I remind you that EoTs is the backbone of Spellstorm. Not Spellstorm Renegade.
Remove ICD.
Introduce Crit Severity penalties in the passive. How much I don't know, math people can work it out. 20-35% depending on rank w/e!
Having no ICD improves fluidity of play.
Do not intentionally constipate a class/paragon.
Without an ICD, everything for Renegade procs off more consistently and has a higher uptime solving most of their woes.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Posted this feedback in another CW thread - Did some more testing (as SS), this time with dummies in a controlled environment and thaum pulled ahead, by A LOT, even without nightmare wizardry (thaum had no combat advantage at all).
Tested 6 minutes each, give or take a few seconds, exact same position, same spell setup. HV set with lesser plaguefire.
I appreciate the test here, but a part of the Renegade build is BUFFING the damage of the TEAM. It'd be nice to see a group run as Thaumaturge and then a group run as a Renegade, and see what the net effect on the total DPS of the team is with a Renegade vs. a Thaumaturge.
Thaumaturge has ALWAYS been better for personal damage than Renegade, currently on Live and on Test. A Renegade build has never been able to top the DPS of a Thaumaturge.
So yes, if you only care about your damage (which is fine), then go Thaumaturge. If you want to bring team buffs to the table, in an effort to make the entire group better, go Renegade.
Comments
Devs, lets make the Renegade Tree viable and this is what I propose:
Energy Recovery:
Because renegade's capstone requires magic missile on live I propose to dial chaos magic back to MM only. To make it useful for us, add 6%/12%/18%/24%/30% damage (or crit chance if damage isn't an option) to magic missile when feated.
Phantasmal Destruction:
change to grant 3.6/7.2/10.8/14.4/18% Critical Severity for 6 seconds and up time to 50%. This will help and give Renegades back the burst damage
Chaos Magic:
add EoTS will also reduce it's internal cooldown -1/-2/-3/-4/-5 seconds. I would keep the EoTS change in the capstone so it will entice others to go down this path. Also, Renegades depends too much on EoTS. Change to proc only when using MM instead of dealing damage.
I think if you change it to something similar to this, it will become very competitive and live back to it's name. Also I know it's a huge buff for not tying to an at-will however, I don't want it to be fully OP. Viable and competitive is the key.
Energy Recovery: Every non-critical hit with an encounter spell reduces the cool down of EotS by .2/.4/.6/.8/1 second.
Yes I agree but I want to prevent others from saying, well now this tree is OP. I want to make it viable and competitive. I like your idea on ICD on EoTS, however, if it's too low on the tree, what would entice others to go this route?
how ever, For PVP (yes for PVP only) it can become really interesting if you can mixt it with some change and equip. it not interesting at all for pve. but well for pvp i can see some potential on it
Assailant capstone provided good dmg and was of average difficulty
Survivability, average difficulty.
Couple minutes.
Tested SS Renegade Heroic HE, icy terrain, steal time, shard. Evocation and EotS, also tried Evocation and Chilling Advantage with 5 feat points and it was same as Eots (Basicly 5feat points in Chilling Presence = same damage as Nerfed EotS)
Very low damage. Capstone provided mimimal benefit.
Survivability was average difficulty.
Fight took very long.
Damage goes through Impossible to Catch-'s damage immunity.
Ha! Now there's a dilemma. Which will be respected: damage immunity or unresistable damage?
It's like unstoppable force meets immovable object.
Assailant capstone provided good dmg
Survivability, average difficulty.
Couple minutes.
Tested MoF Renegade Heroic HE, Fanning the Flame, icy terrain, steal time, shard. Critical Conflagration, Swath of Destruction, (replaced swath of destruction and Feated Chilling Advantage) No difference
Very low damage. Capstone provided mimimal benefit.
Survivability was average difficulty.
Fight took very long.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! Esp. to the BIG one. Although i'd rather have 5 sec. ICD on EotS after putting in it 5 points. 10 seconds is far too much.
I might be *****ing about EotS, but I won't quit until I see it useful again. It's just to precious for Spellstorm Renegades. We have no control like Oppressors, no damage like Thauma and no DoT/debuff like MoF. Save Spellstorms and save renegades.
Feedback: Eye of the Storm
I have to disagree with you on Eye of the Storm. The entire reason they put a cooldown on it was because it was not merely "useful" it was "massively overpowered." When paired with a Perfect Vorpal it increased a CW's damage output astronomically. Even with a 25 second cooldown and 6 seconds of up time I still find myself slotting it on the preview server because it provides more overall damage than other passives. It also allows me to get 100% crits with my Daily powers since I can just hold them until it procs - which is huge. Providing some mechanism to reduce the cooldown to 5 seconds would defeat the purpose the developers set out with in the beginning - to bring CW damage back in line with other classes. Absolutely everyone would choose that feat because there would be nothing in any other tree remotely comparable. I'm not disagreeing with you that Renegade's need a good once-over to make sure they are as useful as Oppressor's and Thaumaturge's but reducing EoTS to 5 second cooldown is not going to happen. Nor should it. It was way out of line with the damage boost it provided.
And I have to disagree with you. Let me rephrase this for you.
"When paired with a Perfect Vorpal ($180) it increased a CW's damage output astronomically..
**** right it hurts. When using a perfect vorpal that costs $180+. It ******* well should.
Is that the price a goldfarmer told u?
CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
If this goes ahead unchanged I'll just stop playing this game and move on to something else because you will take out the joy of playing it.
Out of Topic: Yeah very constructive feedback there. OK so 15 coal wards for $10 a pop, then maybe getting some refining stones or so so all in all he is not way out of line to say so. Beside the point, he may be saying the price but I think what he's trying to say is a perfect enchantment is hard to get right now especially if you are just starting from the beginning without paying a lot of money to speed the process. Please refrain from posting smart a** remarks that do not add any value.
On Topic: Let me add also, because of the swap of NW, it's a mandatory for Renegade to spend the 5 points in the tree whereas on Thaum/OP, you can get a way with it and still have 10 to mess around with and put somewhere else. There are more "landmine feats" on Renegade than any tree. Suggest reworking them as well or at least have a review and make sure the balance between these feats are equal. Also, why not just move feats around. On the thau, there are 6 really good feats, on renegade, there are 4. So if you move 1 from thau to swap for energy recovery since a lot of thau are using chilling cloud. I'd take tempest magic or malevolent surge and it would work because it is still reachable and low enough on the tree.
Posted this feedback in another CW thread - Did some more testing (as SS), this time with dummies in a controlled environment and thaum pulled ahead, by A LOT, even without nightmare wizardry (thaum had no combat advantage at all).
Tested 6 minutes each, give or take a few seconds, exact same position, same spell setup. HV set with lesser plaguefire.
Thaum - 4,756,826 damage, 12,584 EncDPS
Rene - 3,760,814 damage, 10,261 EncDPS
I might stick with thaum at this rate. Nightmare wizardry from solo testing feels very lacking right now without any changes to the renegade line. Not to mention the capstone is meh at best right now. Having vorpal enchant will probably make renegade a little more attractive but it's still lackluster.
*adding* While thaum is the DPS tree, the difference is substantial. I don't have data on oppressor so I don't know if renegade sits around the same damage, more or less.
Now I'm not calling for any nerfs to thaum at all, but bringing up renegade a bit more on par would be thankful. I understand that currently renegade damage would be "made up" in group play but not at all if you want to do things (dailies) solo.
Control Variables
Passives: Storm Spell and Eye of the Storm
Gear, Ability Score, Feats, and Test Dummy
Test
Live ACT Parse
Preview ACT Parse
Results
Encounter
Max Live
Max M4
Reduction
Min Live
Min M4
Reduction
Shardsplosion
14909
5397
64%
5403
1683
69%
Shard Slam
9733
5458
44%
3264
1669
49%
Ice Knife
33222
27552
17%
10995
10183
7%
Ray of Frost
1655
1539
7%
411
419
0%
Chill Strike
11568
8364
28%
3840
2457
36%
Icy Rays
11389
10194
10.5%
3009
3114
0%
Entangling Force
3335
1938
42%
1102
658
40%
Storm Spell
3614
3379
6.5%
926
848
8%
Feedback
Shardsplosion critical hit damage for M4 has been reduced to that of non critical hit damage on Live. The damage reduction from aoe heroic feats coupled with the overall 60% nerf completely cripples the encounter in PvP. Reduce the damage nerf or devise a way to keep the damage in PvP while reducing damage in PvE.
Shard Slam is similarly impacted by more than just the 33% flat reduction by over 10%. Low Slam damage is less of a concern than low Shardsplosion damage, but again, dial back the nerf.
Ice Knife is likely being reduced by the proc nerf to Phantasmal Destruction, but should now be benefiting from arp so no real comments.
Ray of Frost and Storm Spell suffer a small amount from the Heroic nerfs.
Chill Strike -- no real comment, but didn't really need a 15% nerf as it is single target use.
Icy Rays -- no comment
Entangling Force is oddly receiving way more than a 10% reduction and more than what I would expect when coupled with the Heroic nerfs. EF didn't need to be reduced as it is also single target use.
Eye of the Storm is proccing about 60% less, and increases my overall crit by 8% less. Dial back the icd to 15-20sec and/or introduce a feat that reduces the icd.
These would be great feat changes and Controlling Action/Battlewise/Lightning Teleport should be looked at. Give the option to increase the radius of Icy Terrain. Renegade still has the short end of the stick -- every tree has useful feats in the first two tiers that can be coupled with a capstone from another tree except for Renegade now that Nightmare Wizardry has been moved. I currently do not use a capstone in my build and while I do not mind changing, it's unfortunate that it will not be a good option anymore.
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Just finished doing some test and logs. All I can say is wow.
Here is the setup. I made sure I didn't tab COI so the setup is the same. Bear in mind the damage could be much higher on thaum if I did tab it.
http://i.imgur.com/U41BpPj.jpg (wow max 4 images? really?) Sorry folks just click on it. It won't let me post unless I remove. I think this is the least important image anyway or whatever.
Now here is the character sheet for thaum:
and here is the renegade:
Notice there is NOTHING different about the two. Same everything, heroics, except the feats. I should have screenied the feats but it's set as follows, Thaum, Tempest Magic, Malevolent Surge, Snap Freeze, Trancendent Master, Elemental Empowerment, Assailing Force and I took Bitter Cold on Oppressor. Renegade, Critical Power, Nightmare Wizardry (not sure why it hasn't moved on my preview), Phantasmal Destruction, Masterful Arcane Theft, Chaos Magic. Then I took Tempest Magic and Malevolent Surge from thaum because nothing else is good on Renegade. I could have taken bitter cold but I feel the two are better with my setup. Also notice that I am not heavily geared but I can say I'm moderate, with a Perfect Vorpal. I am not stacking a ton of powers like 17K CWs out there.
So here are the result. The thaum ACT log:
And the rene ACT log:
Bottom line is, 3M difference. 3M! and this is without tabbing COI. Also it took longer for me to kill mobs with renegade than thaum. Again not very good and with everyone testing and coming to the same conclusion as me, it is not worth staying on this tree if things keeps going the way they are. Now if they had moved NW already, then I could only put Malevolent Surge and I bet I would have lost more DPS and gain nothing because I don't use chilling cloud but I STILL WOULD HAVE TO SPEND POINTS to get to this tree.
Devs, I hope you are reading these feedback we have been providing because I would hate to waste my time for nothing. I am trying to help make this game better for everyone and keeping the balance between the 3 trees.
Forgot to mention, I had to pot on rene because I couldn't kill them fast enough compared to thaum... again another con.
Btw does someone know what effectivness on ACT means?
Damage buff I guess but how exactly?
So sad to see the 0% Flank at Thaum from now on...(bye-bye Blink dog/Devourer)
I couldn't disagree more. EotS could be overpowering Thaumas, never Renegades. I'm using it on live server all the time, and am still outdpsed by any similarly geared Thauma. Strangely so, mostly Thaumas in HV set (which I have and don't use). But they won't be fixing HV. They will be destroying EotS.
If you watched feedback from preview, you could notice that nobody slotted EotS with 25 ICD. People went Evocation and Spell Storm, now they will go Evocation and Spell storm or Orb of imposition since it's getting buffed. When I did CN run on preview, I replaced EotS with Evocation too, because when EotS came off ICD all my encounters were on CD and it was wasted on at-wills. I'm not going to count to 25 and jump around in epic dungeon, doing nothing, waiting for EotS to be useful. This feat is that much frustrating to use, I also see Evocation much more appealing.
And last but not least: do you feel it's ok for Spellstorm Renegades having every end-tree power useless? Almost nobody uses Maelstrom (Ice knife (even nerfed), Oppressive Force, hell even Ice Storm are better) , Shard has no damage to offer any more, only lots of bugs and clumsiness in use, and EotS is useless for 25 seconds, making Evocation, Orb of Impo. and Spell Storm more attractive since they are working for you all the time.
If EotS had reduced ICD on capstone for renegade tree, it would seam fair. I don't think Thaumas Assailing force has any ICD, and it's pretty OP. It's like replacing EotS with Assailing for them and again making Thauma more attractive. Only renegade Ss has been left in dark forest.
So now we are justifying nerfing a class based on it's interaction with an enchantment only a small minority of the playerbase has , yes that makes perfect sense.
Btw. enchants better then normal ones (greater and perfects) are harder, and harder to get for non-CS gamers. So if for your toil you get depraved of the only one awesome end-game feat, it's very depressing.
EoTs reworks shouldn't be just for Renegade. Suggestions only work if you're neutral, but the bias is strong in this one.
I remind you that EoTs is the backbone of Spellstorm. Not Spellstorm Renegade.
Remove ICD.
Introduce Crit Severity penalties in the passive. How much I don't know, math people can work it out. 20-35% depending on rank w/e!
Having no ICD improves fluidity of play.
Do not intentionally constipate a class/paragon.
Without an ICD, everything for Renegade procs off more consistently and has a higher uptime solving most of their woes.
I appreciate the test here, but a part of the Renegade build is BUFFING the damage of the TEAM. It'd be nice to see a group run as Thaumaturge and then a group run as a Renegade, and see what the net effect on the total DPS of the team is with a Renegade vs. a Thaumaturge.
Thaumaturge has ALWAYS been better for personal damage than Renegade, currently on Live and on Test. A Renegade build has never been able to top the DPS of a Thaumaturge.
So yes, if you only care about your damage (which is fine), then go Thaumaturge. If you want to bring team buffs to the table, in an effort to make the entire group better, go Renegade.