Heh. If you finally get vorpal and enough crits and enough combat advantage, we shall nerf skills that use it, course you'll be too op. One would fear progressing in this game.
Btw. enchants better then normal ones (greater and perfects) are harder, and harder to get for non-CS gamers. So if for your toil you get depraved of one awesome end-game feat, it's very depressing.
It's not ONLY with Perfect Vorpals that EoTS is overpowered. It's ridiculously overpowered with no enchantment on live. The Vorpal just takes it to another level of ridiculousness. Please don't pretend otherwise. Every CW worth his salt slots EoTS because they understand just how much better it is than every other passive we have (and how much better it is than any passive any other class has).
The awkward moment when you look up the definition of thaumaturge and renegade on google and find out that it's opposite of what there trying to do on the preview.
i do not say it logical with the tree name i just say that what they said they want to do
but a part of the Renegade build is BUFFING the damage of the TEAM.
Have to remember that a HR can slot Aspect of the Pack and grant combat advantage by just standing near them. It doesn't even have to proc. So that really gives nothing for renegade specific to bring to the table besides a bad capstone.
nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
Power execution/animation
When spamming the next power's button while the current power is being cast, the next power will be cast about 0.3 seconds before the current power finishes animating, but the first power will still take effect and strike the target without the final part of the animation.
This basically allows players to chain powers more quickly than intended (compared to Live)
Chill Strike (Mastery)
Pressing the button of another power near the start of activating Chill Strike will result in Chill Strike being aborted mid-animation (sound continues to play) and the other power being cast instead (same problem as on Live)
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seventhpillarMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
i do not say it logical with the tree name i just say that what they said they want to do
Yeah I understand what you are saying but have you been reading my posts? If this was my first post then yes, it doesn't make sense. But I've been advocating putting the Renegade back to what it's suppose to be, the crit/burst dps tree and not the charity wizard tree. I have ran CN multitudes of times and been with multitudes of thaums even heavily geared than me but I am either equal or even top DPS. Yes it's true, they have the constant DPS but with my burst, I was able to compensate the difference. Renegade, you have to be very risky, and place your encounters carefully and when you get the combo right, it pays big. I am sorry but like I have been saying all along, put it back in line where it used to be or make the announcement to rename the tree, then I will abandon this tree. I have been a renegade since I started in July 2013 and been very heavily invested in the game play and mechanics of it. I never said it has to out DPS the thaum, but it should be close to be competitive and making us charity wizards really is not the way to go. It should be as follows:
Oppressor = Full control. All feats maximizes and focuses on control. The official wiki says, Control feats: These feats are focused in improving crowd control potential and cold spells.
Thaumaturge = Constant Damage, should focus on lower damage but constant output. The official wiki says, Damage feats: These feats are focused on increasing damage output. Now wouldn't you think from that this should be the buff tree?
Renegade = This is the crit/charisma tree. This is the peaky tree, high damage when timed and placed right. The official wiki says, Critical feats: These feats improve critical strike and critical severity, as well as add more effects to critical hits.
The in game description says so, the official wiki says so. I know what was announced and is it wrong for me to suggest and keep things in line the way I understand things? Just because thaum was netting bigger dps on live right now means it is the dps tree. Yes it was announced but the way I see it, it was written and designed differently as the wiki and the game descriptions of the tree says otherwise. So again, either rename and change the description of Renegade or make it viable to what it's suppose to be. Like I said, make it competitive to thaum but not in the charity department. There is nothing renegade about that.
And GF tab gives CA too, and -8% DR, and agro.. with the buffs to GF's it will be more common to see them. I feel this feat will be very underutilzied.
Have to remember that a HR can slot Aspect of the Pack and grant combat advantage by just standing near them. It doesn't even have to proc. So that really gives nothing for renegade specific to bring to the table besides a bad capstone.
You give a good point for renegade way as it should also provide for group buf an other thing than just CA and especially since it exist for HR a way to grant it 100% and also there is other way to activate combat advantage. So on my view one of the 2 T4 should provide a party debuf bonus that should not be a way to increase CA chance proc. exemple : modifie chilling presence like that: Having chilling presence give 0.5-1-1.5-2-2.5 % mitigation per stack of chill on the target.
it can give a good result for party buff and not put renegade usefull in party when there is no HR in it
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
I have ran CN multitudes of times and been with multitudes of thaums even heavily geared than me but I am either equal or even top DPS.
This is because you were benefiting from all the debuffs the Thaumaturge was bringing to the table. If you had gone in there with just Renegades or no other CW, your DPS (and the party's DPS) would've been much lower. This is part of the reason why the CW is being "fixed" by removing a lot of the debuffs from the pure DPS tree (Thaumaturge) and spreading them out to the other trees.
And as a player, I don't want two DPS trees, because (just like we have now) one will be superior to the other. If the result is to provide maximum damage, then the tree that does that will always be superior. As it stands right now, Thaumaturge is and has been the superior DPS tree, at least for PvE content. Sure, Renegades were viable (because the entire class was so OP'd), but they simply can't match the overall DPS of a Thaumaturge.
With the proposed changes on Test now, you have a distinct reason for being either a Thaumaturge (personal DPS) or a Renegade (Support DPS). And does the name really matter that much? If if does, why don't we just switch the names? Call the Thaumaturge tree Renegade, and call the Renegade Thaumaturge and be done with it. Then the Renegades can be happy because the max DPS tree is called Renegade, and we can all get on with the rest of our lives.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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seventhpillarMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
Call the Thaumaturge tree Renegade, and call the Renegade Thaumaturge and be done with it. Then the Renegades can be happy because the max DPS tree is called Renegade, and we can all get on with the rest of our lives.
I'm just going to agree to disagree with you. Seems like you missed the part of me saying the mechanics and game play since I started this game and I know that I am not alone in this department. I'm done with this. I have spent more time on this than what I have wanted to in the first place. There is only so much one person can say regarding this matter. One thing you forget is that most would dip in the Renegade tree to take NW to even make their damage crazier. I would like to run with someone similar spec with me with no NW to test it out as everybody seems to have it.
Devs, disregard everything I have said. Let's just fully nuke the tree so we can move on.
The awkward moment when you look up the definition of thaumaturge and renegade on google and find out that it's opposite of what there trying to do on the preview.
Definition of THAUMATURGE
: thaumaturgist
Origin of THAUMATURGE
French, from New Latin thaumaturgus, from Greek thaumatourgos working miracles, from thaumat-, thauma miracle + ergon work — more at theater, work
First Known Use: 1715
Definition of THAUMATURGIST
: a performer of miracles; especially : magician
First Known Use of THAUMATURGIST
1829
Thaum and Renegade are completely backwards. Thaum should be the debuff and Renegade the DPS... I don't know what the developers are thinking. This is not right.
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kieranmtornMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 382Arc User
This is because you were benefiting from all the debuffs the Thaumaturge was bringing to the table. If you had gone in there with just Renegades or no other CW, your DPS (and the party's DPS) would've been much lower. This is part of the reason why the CW is being "fixed" by removing a lot of the debuffs from the pure DPS tree (Thaumaturge) and spreading them out to the other trees.
And as a player, I don't want two DPS trees, because (just like we have now) one will be superior to the other. If the result is to provide maximum damage, then the tree that does that will always be superior. As it stands right now, Thaumaturge is and has been the superior DPS tree, at least for PvE content. Sure, Renegades were viable (because the entire class was so OP'd), but they simply can't match the overall DPS of a Thaumaturge.
With the proposed changes on Test now, you have a distinct reason for being either a Thaumaturge (personal DPS) or a Renegade (Support DPS). And does the name really matter that much? If if does, why don't we just switch the names? Call the Thaumaturge tree Renegade, and call the Renegade Thaumaturge and be done with it. Then the Renegades can be happy because the max DPS tree is called Renegade, and we can all get on with the rest of our lives.
What I've noticed, is that the existing CW Spellstorm Renegade loath the changes, and the non-Renegade are advocating them. I fully expect if this goes through, there will be very few of us that will remain Renegade SpellStorm CW, and the rest of you will be welcome to become what you have wanted. As far as the numbers, I play both Thaum & Renegade, and Renegade is far harder to play to maximum effect (and probably riskier, since you're trying to force phantasmal destruction to proc on all crits).
I played around with different builds for 3 hours today
Damage wise, we're supposed to be angled towards Control over damage. which I get.
However....
Assailent force (which is probably the only thing actually doing dps) and is probably only doing as much damage as it is... because of bugs.
Ice conduit is now completly useless unless you spec Oppressor imo
And that, coupled with icy terrain. Otherwise its damage buff for other skills (since its taking a slot itself) needs to be increased
IE slotting Icy terrain and ice conduit takes 2 slots leave prolly Avalach (reduced in damage by nearly 70%) and 1 dps skill o.o
Oppressor is supposed to be control, thaum dps. however Oppresor needs some serious damage buffs to be remotly viable. its CC is adequate, but its damage is crazy low. ICD doing 400-600 damage is not okay... o.o ....on live it will do a total damage of 15k. on preview it does 3000 o.o I was going to play Oppressor...but I had a HARD time killing normal level 60 mobs. chain controling them wasn't an issue. but killing them... was hard. Clerics could dps a group down faster then I could as an oppressor.
But Avalach REALLY needs to be re-examined. Seriously. It does 3k damage, its clumsy and misses if not bugs thru targets, its only going feature 5 second prone only works on 1-2 adds, but most of the time everyone still stands back up after a second, maybe less like on live. its now what i'd call a TERRIBLE skill. Where as on live, a seasoned user of it , could make it the cream of the crop for pvp or pve.
Storm I found is completely Broken.
Renegade is broken. Everyone knows it. Storm is broken. Endless Avalach is broken everyone knows it. MOF is viable but the cool downs arn't right. since we don't get gear to support those spells and we don't even have a fire ball or anything of the like.
Master of Flame is The better choice but the increased cool down to 22 seconds for fanning the flames is rediculess. expecially since it "IS NOT" a control power, and thus doesn't benefit from many feats, doesn't benefit from reduced cool down armors or procs. We don't get skills that Do "FIRE" damage ....we don't have a fire ball, and to hit us with a 7 second increase to our only fire skill is CRAZY. in short. the damage from assailent in its current probably bugged state is nice. However if you where to remove that, the entire class I believe would be total CC with no damage. Seriously I think clerics will be fighting us for a higher dps slot in the pain giver window in dungeons.
I played around with different builds for 3 hours today
Damage wise, we're supposed to be angled towards Control over damage. which I get.
However....
Assailent force (which is probably the only thing actually doing dps) and is probably only doing as much damage as it is... because of bugs.
Ice conduit is now completly useless unless you spec Oppressor imo
And that, coupled with icy terrain. Otherwise its damage buff for other skills (since its taking a slot itself) needs to be increased
IE slotting Icy terrain and ice conduit takes 2 slots leave prolly Avalach (reduced in damage by nearly 70%) and 1 dps skill o.o
Oppressor is supposed to be control, thaum dps. however Oppresor needs some serious damage buffs to be remotly viable. its CC is adequate, but its damage is crazy low. ICD doing 400-600 damage is not okay... o.o ....on live it will do a total damage of 15k. on preview it does 3000 o.o I was going to play Oppressor...but I had a HARD time killing normal level 60 mobs. chain controling them wasn't an issue. but killing them... was hard. Clerics could dps a group down faster then I could as an oppressor.
But Avalach REALLY needs to be re-examined. Seriously. It does 3k damage, its clumsy and misses if not bugs thru targets, its only going feature 5 second prone only works on 1-2 adds, but most of the time everyone still stands back up after a second, maybe less like on live. its now what i'd call a TERRIBLE skill. Where as on live, a seasoned user of it , could make it the cream of the crop for pvp or pve.
Storm I found is completely Broken.
Renegade is broken. Everyone knows it. Storm is broken. Endless Avalach is broken everyone knows it. MOF is viable but the cool downs arn't right. since we don't get gear to support those spells and we don't even have a fire ball or anything of the like.
Master of Flame is The better choice but the increased cool down to 22 seconds for fanning the flames is rediculess. expecially since it "IS NOT" a control power, and thus doesn't benefit from many feats, doesn't benefit from reduced cool down armors or procs. We don't get skills that Do "FIRE" damage ....we don't have a fire ball, and to hit us with a 7 second increase to our only fire skill is CRAZY. in short. the damage from assailent in its current probably bugged state is nice. However if you where to remove that, the entire class I believe would be total CC with no damage. Seriously I think clerics will be fighting us for a higher dps slot in the pain giver window in dungeons.
MoF Opressor actually outperforms Renegade. The control is so good, that it doesn't require a nerfed shard.
This is how...
Remove shard from rotation.
Conduit of Ice on tab, icy terrain, fanning the flames, steal time.
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charkanramonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 51Arc User
edited July 2014
Feedback - Fanning the flames
Change the skill into a flamethrower in the area of effect. And turn it into a fire ball in the master.
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited July 2014
Eye of the Storm:
Make the EotS proc off damage done instead of X% for encounter/at-will/daily. With the ICD being added, it's important for Wizards to time their biggest Encounters and Dailies with EotS procs, so having a way to proc it more reliably when off cooldown is necessary. I would give it a 20% chance to proc of any damage, which would help CW's manage procs without necessarily firing off an encounter they'd like to use DURING an EotS.
Look like there is some cooldown for assaillant before it can proc again. Is it suppose to be the case, if yes what is the cooldown
i made some test on previous server (around 30 min) in the pvp room and the result seems to be that assaillant have around the same proc time if it hit one or 3 target. with 3 target and overtime damage like icy terrain it should proc 3 time more on 3 target than against one target but it doesn't seems the case.
Second point i got some big gap of damage on it (sometime 8k sometime 12k ) it's quite random for an effect that is suppose to be only dependant of target max hp
Ok,after further tests,one of the biggest issues i had is that there is no visual representation of its cooldown phase and as a result it procs at the wrong time.It is very difficult for a player to time his attacks when he has to guess his EoTs availability. Also ,despite what i initially thought,the 25 secs cooldown is indeed too long.Either reduce it to 10-15 secs or increase the duration,or both. Spellstorm mage is hit hard by the ICD and the gameplay feels awkward.But no matter what, a timer is needed to appear on the screen and show how much time of the cooldown is left, before reuse.
Apart from PvE there's also PvP I'm enjoying so far on my toon and I haven't noticed much concern about it from Renegades. After Module4 hits, Renegades will have a hard time not only PvEing but PvPing. I'm not saying it won't be possible to win, but from other players' feedback - in comparison with Thaumas, Rene will have it far more difficult in both PvP and PvE.
Since Oppressors specializes in control, Thaumas in pure dps, Renegades were supposed to (and should) specialize in high crit + combat advantage. But this will not be enough after nerfs, with damage nerf and ICD on EotS, which preview already proved. My proposal is, and I'd like to know other CW's opinion, that Renegades could specialize in faster spell casting (that would make them easier to play PvP and PvE alike). That means reduced ICD, CD, and casting time on every encounter, daily, feat and at will. I'm not calling for extra fast cast time, but significant one, that will be noticeable and will realistically make Renegades life easier and also the tree appealing. This could be placed in capstone. Either constant reduce of icd, cd and ct or a fairly high chance to have all ICD and CD cancelled and casting time decreased for such and such time.
Too many people already claimed there's nothing special about Rene, and I agree. And even much so in regard to PvP. If you want combat advantage buff, take HR with proper feat to the party. And honestly - I don't even know what chaos magic 3 buffs do, because they are so insignificant. But if you have a choice between controlling CW, DPSing CW and Fast casting crit-a-lot CW, maybe that will make Renegade more competitive (in PvE but mostly in PvP).
Bids he then the spruces to singer him an anthems!
And the Woodsie Lord binders them fleshes to stone!
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited July 2014
The problem is (and my last post on this got moved, but it's very salient to the test server changes) is that since EotS is currently bugged on Live to proc at a much higher rate than intended, people have a false sense of how much it should proc and how long the uptime should be. So you're not necessarily comparing apples to apples.
In fact, when I get a chance this afternoon, I'll test on Live vs Test the uptime on EotS NOT using ST or CoI, to get a baseline. And I also have a feeling that they can't fix CoI and ST without a significant coding rewrite, which is why it's simpler for them to go with a ICD.
Hey all, we have been looking at how Shield functions and we think it is diminishing too fast and that makes slotting it feel too frustrating most of the time so we are imrpoving it dramatically. This should drastically improve wizard survivability while it is slotted which should provide a substantive PVP and PVE buff.
This change should hit this week barring anything going wrong.
Control Wizard: Shield: Shield will now diminish to 50% effectiveness while fully Destabilized at Rank 1. Each additional Rank will reduce the total amount of Destabilization your Shield can suffer. Grants 5% Control Resist per rank while slotted in spell mastery.
I will clarify this since I don't want the actual patch note to get too wordy (despite being a bit confusing).
At all ranks Shield while stable (undamaged) absorbs 50% of incoming damage after your damage resistance.
It then is Destabilized, which reduces its effectiveness. So here are the before and afters!
Normal
Before
R1 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 0%
R2 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 5%
R3 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 10%
And Spell Mastery now also adds 5% Control Resistance per rank. This is additive with Tenacity. Because who doesn't like that?
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Chris,
This has been posted before by others, Shield is too strong for PVP purposes. Most CWs in PVP easily run with 20-25% DR. Even at Unstable 2 this puts them almost at the DR cap - above even the tankiness of the Sentinel GWF or even a GWF IN UNSTOPPABLE...
I agree this power needed some love, this arguably went a little overboard... I think at MAX benefit, this power would give the CW as much DR - in mastery - as a Sentinel which is about 55% DR.
So Here would be my suggestion: (Note the +25% base, assumes the CW has 25% base DR so you can get an idea of their "final" DR with this power slotted.)
Normal
R1 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 15% (+25% base = 40% DR)
R2 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 20% (+25% base = 45% DR)
R3 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 25% (+25% base = 50% DR)
This seems more appropriate to be honest. It STILL might even be too strong, given that CWs have alot of control now - making them more tanky - and still have alot of dodges. I dont want this power being AS worthless as before, I dont want to see the class nerfed into the ground, BTW, this rework is DOUBLE the effectiveness of before (15% DR to 30% now) but you went and OVER TRIPLED the power.....
This has been posted before by others, Shield is too strong for PVP purposes. Most CWs in PVP easily run with 20-25% DR. Even at Unstable 2 this puts them almost at the DR cap - above even the tankiness of the Sentinel GWF or even a GWF IN UNSTOPPABLE...
I agree this power needed some love, this arguably went a little overboard... I think at MAX benefit, this power would give the CW as much DR - in mastery - as a Sentinel which is about 55% DR.
So Here would be my suggestion: (Note the +25% base, assumes the CW has 25% base DR so you can get an idea of their "final" DR with this power slotted.)
Normal
R1 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 15% (+25% base = 40% DR)
R2 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 20% (+25% base = 45% DR)
R3 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 25% (+25% base = 50% DR)
This seems more appropriate to be honest. It STILL might even be too strong, given that CWs have alot of control now - making them more tanky - and still have alot of dodges. I dont want this power being AS worthless as before, I dont want to see the class nerfed into the ground, BTW, this rework is DOUBLE the effectiveness of before (15% DR to 30% now) but you went and OVER TRIPLED the power.....
The problem is that if you look at the damage, it's been plowed into the ground, and if your thaumaturge path assailiant is your only damage dealer. Oppressor & Renegade are jokes now and oppressor only being better because it's a little easier to get control on your targets. Since CW damage was unnecessarily nurfed for PvP, the ONLY way to survive and be able to get as much damage in PvP on live (which isn't much mind you) is to be able to tank for longer to have the damage add up, without assailiant on preview it literally takes 3-6 (9-10 on gwf/gf) rotations to kill ANYONE! Including other CWs WITHOUT shield! Not trying to punch the devs in the face but CWs can't rely on a single feat to have any damage in PvP whatsoever. This was testing on preview already and the damage CWs can max out is a flipping joke. And the only way for CWs to have the same damage on live is to have assailiant the way it is now. Granted it might seem overpowered, but in the time that you get assailiant to proc, you would have done almost the same damage with your encounters on live, on preview encounters are practically using your at-wills, and are now only good for their utility (control) and have negligable damage and is ****ing useless if someone is control immune.
This has been posted before by others, Shield is too strong for PVP purposes. Most CWs in PVP easily run with 20-25% DR. Even at Unstable 2 this puts them almost at the DR cap - above even the tankiness of the Sentinel GWF or even a GWF IN UNSTOPPABLE...
I agree this power needed some love, this arguably went a little overboard... I think at MAX benefit, this power would give the CW as much DR - in mastery - as a Sentinel which is about 55% DR.
So Here would be my suggestion: (Note the +25% base, assumes the CW has 25% base DR so you can get an idea of their "final" DR with this power slotted.)
Normal
R1 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 15% (+25% base = 40% DR)
R2 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 20% (+25% base = 45% DR)
R3 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 25% (+25% base = 50% DR)
This seems more appropriate to be honest. It STILL might even be too strong, given that CWs have alot of control now - making them more tanky - and still have alot of dodges. I dont want this power being AS worthless as before, I dont want to see the class nerfed into the ground, BTW, this rework is DOUBLE the effectiveness of before (15% DR to 30% now) but you went and OVER TRIPLED the power.....
ON or OFF Spell Mastery, shield DR should be the same.
After
R1 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 25%
R2 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 30%
R3 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 35%
ON Mastery options
-Shield ae pulse Damage - no push
-Damage reflection -
-Celerity - Decreased casting time of encounter powers
-increased ae by 5 feet for all area effect powers
There are more options, these are just Ideas. Actually adding a feat to Shield will help Oppressors and Renegade tree significantly.
Opressor - increase ae radius + damage reflection
Renegade- decreased casting time of encounters + Ae Pulse
I decided to test out oppressor on the dummies, just to do a full circle for a general idea.
Opp - 3,956,812 damage, 10,393 EncDPS
So, thaum gets the damage, oppressor some damage with control, what exactly does renegade get to make them special? Something that only benefits group play by providing combat advantage. Renegades need to have more than just nightmare wizardry to make them viable after the death of EoTS.
The problem is that if you look at the damage, it's been plowed into the ground, and if your thaumaturge path assailiant is your only damage dealer. snip
Not arguing with you on the damage, or the control. The feedback is that 50% DR + easily gotten 30% dr from stats puts you at the clamp of 80% too easily. You nor anyone else wants CW's to be the new TR nodeholders, do you? Huge DR + some control resists, dodging around, and getting a little control on the other guy. You are not a tank. And what about mixing shield and KV from a GF?
It raises the DR of the cloth wearing class too much, especially with other interactions. Give them things that are more in-line with their class, like control and damage. Don't make them more tanky than the fighter classes.
Comments
It's not ONLY with Perfect Vorpals that EoTS is overpowered. It's ridiculously overpowered with no enchantment on live. The Vorpal just takes it to another level of ridiculousness. Please don't pretend otherwise. Every CW worth his salt slots EoTS because they understand just how much better it is than every other passive we have (and how much better it is than any passive any other class has).
i do not say it logical with the tree name i just say that what they said they want to do
Have to remember that a HR can slot Aspect of the Pack and grant combat advantage by just standing near them. It doesn't even have to proc. So that really gives nothing for renegade specific to bring to the table besides a bad capstone.
When spamming the next power's button while the current power is being cast, the next power will be cast about 0.3 seconds before the current power finishes animating, but the first power will still take effect and strike the target without the final part of the animation.
This basically allows players to chain powers more quickly than intended (compared to Live)
Chill Strike (Mastery)
Pressing the button of another power near the start of activating Chill Strike will result in Chill Strike being aborted mid-animation (sound continues to play) and the other power being cast instead (same problem as on Live)
Yeah I understand what you are saying but have you been reading my posts? If this was my first post then yes, it doesn't make sense. But I've been advocating putting the Renegade back to what it's suppose to be, the crit/burst dps tree and not the charity wizard tree. I have ran CN multitudes of times and been with multitudes of thaums even heavily geared than me but I am either equal or even top DPS. Yes it's true, they have the constant DPS but with my burst, I was able to compensate the difference. Renegade, you have to be very risky, and place your encounters carefully and when you get the combo right, it pays big. I am sorry but like I have been saying all along, put it back in line where it used to be or make the announcement to rename the tree, then I will abandon this tree. I have been a renegade since I started in July 2013 and been very heavily invested in the game play and mechanics of it. I never said it has to out DPS the thaum, but it should be close to be competitive and making us charity wizards really is not the way to go. It should be as follows:
Oppressor = Full control. All feats maximizes and focuses on control. The official wiki says, Control feats: These feats are focused in improving crowd control potential and cold spells.
Thaumaturge = Constant Damage, should focus on lower damage but constant output. The official wiki says, Damage feats: These feats are focused on increasing damage output. Now wouldn't you think from that this should be the buff tree?
Renegade = This is the crit/charisma tree. This is the peaky tree, high damage when timed and placed right. The official wiki says, Critical feats: These feats improve critical strike and critical severity, as well as add more effects to critical hits.
The in game description says so, the official wiki says so. I know what was announced and is it wrong for me to suggest and keep things in line the way I understand things? Just because thaum was netting bigger dps on live right now means it is the dps tree. Yes it was announced but the way I see it, it was written and designed differently as the wiki and the game descriptions of the tree says otherwise. So again, either rename and change the description of Renegade or make it viable to what it's suppose to be. Like I said, make it competitive to thaum but not in the charity department. There is nothing renegade about that.
You give a good point for renegade way as it should also provide for group buf an other thing than just CA and especially since it exist for HR a way to grant it 100% and also there is other way to activate combat advantage. So on my view one of the 2 T4 should provide a party debuf bonus that should not be a way to increase CA chance proc. exemple : modifie chilling presence like that: Having chilling presence give 0.5-1-1.5-2-2.5 % mitigation per stack of chill on the target.
it can give a good result for party buff and not put renegade usefull in party when there is no HR in it
This is because you were benefiting from all the debuffs the Thaumaturge was bringing to the table. If you had gone in there with just Renegades or no other CW, your DPS (and the party's DPS) would've been much lower. This is part of the reason why the CW is being "fixed" by removing a lot of the debuffs from the pure DPS tree (Thaumaturge) and spreading them out to the other trees.
And as a player, I don't want two DPS trees, because (just like we have now) one will be superior to the other. If the result is to provide maximum damage, then the tree that does that will always be superior. As it stands right now, Thaumaturge is and has been the superior DPS tree, at least for PvE content. Sure, Renegades were viable (because the entire class was so OP'd), but they simply can't match the overall DPS of a Thaumaturge.
With the proposed changes on Test now, you have a distinct reason for being either a Thaumaturge (personal DPS) or a Renegade (Support DPS). And does the name really matter that much? If if does, why don't we just switch the names? Call the Thaumaturge tree Renegade, and call the Renegade Thaumaturge and be done with it. Then the Renegades can be happy because the max DPS tree is called Renegade, and we can all get on with the rest of our lives.
I'm just going to agree to disagree with you. Seems like you missed the part of me saying the mechanics and game play since I started this game and I know that I am not alone in this department. I'm done with this. I have spent more time on this than what I have wanted to in the first place. There is only so much one person can say regarding this matter. One thing you forget is that most would dip in the Renegade tree to take NW to even make their damage crazier. I would like to run with someone similar spec with me with no NW to test it out as everybody seems to have it.
Devs, disregard everything I have said. Let's just fully nuke the tree so we can move on.
I know. How ridiculous.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/renegade
Full Definition of RENEGADE
1: a deserter from one faith, cause, or allegiance to another
2: an individual who rejects lawful or conventional behavior
Yeah. Sounds like a team player. Someone who helps everyone he can.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/thaumaturge
Definition of THAUMATURGE
: thaumaturgist
Origin of THAUMATURGE
French, from New Latin thaumaturgus, from Greek thaumatourgos working miracles, from thaumat-, thauma miracle + ergon work — more at theater, work
First Known Use: 1715
Definition of THAUMATURGIST
: a performer of miracles; especially : magician
First Known Use of THAUMATURGIST
1829
Thaum and Renegade are completely backwards. Thaum should be the debuff and Renegade the DPS... I don't know what the developers are thinking. This is not right.
What I've noticed, is that the existing CW Spellstorm Renegade loath the changes, and the non-Renegade are advocating them. I fully expect if this goes through, there will be very few of us that will remain Renegade SpellStorm CW, and the rest of you will be welcome to become what you have wanted. As far as the numbers, I play both Thaum & Renegade, and Renegade is far harder to play to maximum effect (and probably riskier, since you're trying to force phantasmal destruction to proc on all crits).
Yay! Someone else said! Prepare for the CW flame.
While I do agree CWs need tools like this, I think we all agree that it MAY be just a tad too strong....
And even with Shield and stuff, I saw some CWs losing badly for GFs on the wPvP.
Damage wise, we're supposed to be angled towards Control over damage. which I get.
However....
Assailent force (which is probably the only thing actually doing dps) and is probably only doing as much damage as it is... because of bugs.
Ice conduit is now completly useless unless you spec Oppressor imo
And that, coupled with icy terrain. Otherwise its damage buff for other skills (since its taking a slot itself) needs to be increased
IE slotting Icy terrain and ice conduit takes 2 slots leave prolly Avalach (reduced in damage by nearly 70%) and 1 dps skill o.o
Oppressor is supposed to be control, thaum dps. however Oppresor needs some serious damage buffs to be remotly viable. its CC is adequate, but its damage is crazy low. ICD doing 400-600 damage is not okay... o.o ....on live it will do a total damage of 15k. on preview it does 3000 o.o I was going to play Oppressor...but I had a HARD time killing normal level 60 mobs. chain controling them wasn't an issue. but killing them... was hard. Clerics could dps a group down faster then I could as an oppressor.
But Avalach REALLY needs to be re-examined. Seriously. It does 3k damage, its clumsy and misses if not bugs thru targets, its only going feature 5 second prone only works on 1-2 adds, but most of the time everyone still stands back up after a second, maybe less like on live. its now what i'd call a TERRIBLE skill. Where as on live, a seasoned user of it , could make it the cream of the crop for pvp or pve.
Storm I found is completely Broken.
Renegade is broken. Everyone knows it. Storm is broken. Endless Avalach is broken everyone knows it.
MOF is viable but the cool downs arn't right. since we don't get gear to support those spells and we don't even have a fire ball or anything of the like.
Master of Flame is The better choice but the increased cool down to 22 seconds for fanning the flames is rediculess. expecially since it "IS NOT" a control power, and thus doesn't benefit from many feats, doesn't benefit from reduced cool down armors or procs. We don't get skills that Do "FIRE" damage ....we don't have a fire ball, and to hit us with a 7 second increase to our only fire skill is CRAZY. in short. the damage from assailent in its current probably bugged state is nice. However if you where to remove that, the entire class I believe would be total CC with no damage. Seriously I think clerics will be fighting us for a higher dps slot in the pain giver window in dungeons.
MoF Opressor actually outperforms Renegade. The control is so good, that it doesn't require a nerfed shard.
This is how...
Remove shard from rotation.
Conduit of Ice on tab, icy terrain, fanning the flames, steal time.
Change the skill into a flamethrower in the area of effect. And turn it into a fire ball in the master.
Make the EotS proc off damage done instead of X% for encounter/at-will/daily. With the ICD being added, it's important for Wizards to time their biggest Encounters and Dailies with EotS procs, so having a way to proc it more reliably when off cooldown is necessary. I would give it a 20% chance to proc of any damage, which would help CW's manage procs without necessarily firing off an encounter they'd like to use DURING an EotS.
i made some test on previous server (around 30 min) in the pvp room and the result seems to be that assaillant have around the same proc time if it hit one or 3 target. with 3 target and overtime damage like icy terrain it should proc 3 time more on 3 target than against one target but it doesn't seems the case.
Second point i got some big gap of damage on it (sometime 8k sometime 12k ) it's quite random for an effect that is suppose to be only dependant of target max hp
Ok,after further tests,one of the biggest issues i had is that there is no visual representation of its cooldown phase and as a result it procs at the wrong time.It is very difficult for a player to time his attacks when he has to guess his EoTs availability. Also ,despite what i initially thought,the 25 secs cooldown is indeed too long.Either reduce it to 10-15 secs or increase the duration,or both. Spellstorm mage is hit hard by the ICD and the gameplay feels awkward.But no matter what, a timer is needed to appear on the screen and show how much time of the cooldown is left, before reuse.
Apart from PvE there's also PvP I'm enjoying so far on my toon and I haven't noticed much concern about it from Renegades. After Module4 hits, Renegades will have a hard time not only PvEing but PvPing. I'm not saying it won't be possible to win, but from other players' feedback - in comparison with Thaumas, Rene will have it far more difficult in both PvP and PvE.
Since Oppressors specializes in control, Thaumas in pure dps, Renegades were supposed to (and should) specialize in high crit + combat advantage. But this will not be enough after nerfs, with damage nerf and ICD on EotS, which preview already proved. My proposal is, and I'd like to know other CW's opinion, that Renegades could specialize in faster spell casting (that would make them easier to play PvP and PvE alike). That means reduced ICD, CD, and casting time on every encounter, daily, feat and at will. I'm not calling for extra fast cast time, but significant one, that will be noticeable and will realistically make Renegades life easier and also the tree appealing. This could be placed in capstone. Either constant reduce of icd, cd and ct or a fairly high chance to have all ICD and CD cancelled and casting time decreased for such and such time.
Too many people already claimed there's nothing special about Rene, and I agree. And even much so in regard to PvP. If you want combat advantage buff, take HR with proper feat to the party. And honestly - I don't even know what chaos magic 3 buffs do, because they are so insignificant. But if you have a choice between controlling CW, DPSing CW and Fast casting crit-a-lot CW, maybe that will make Renegade more competitive (in PvE but mostly in PvP).
In fact, when I get a chance this afternoon, I'll test on Live vs Test the uptime on EotS NOT using ST or CoI, to get a baseline. And I also have a feeling that they can't fix CoI and ST without a significant coding rewrite, which is why it's simpler for them to go with a ICD.
Chris,
This has been posted before by others, Shield is too strong for PVP purposes. Most CWs in PVP easily run with 20-25% DR. Even at Unstable 2 this puts them almost at the DR cap - above even the tankiness of the Sentinel GWF or even a GWF IN UNSTOPPABLE...
I agree this power needed some love, this arguably went a little overboard... I think at MAX benefit, this power would give the CW as much DR - in mastery - as a Sentinel which is about 55% DR.
So Here would be my suggestion: (Note the +25% base, assumes the CW has 25% base DR so you can get an idea of their "final" DR with this power slotted.)
Normal
R1 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 15% (+25% base = 40% DR)
R2 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 20% (+25% base = 45% DR)
R3 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 25% (+25% base = 50% DR)
Spell Mastery
R1 Stable: 60%, Unstable 1:40%, Unstable 2: 20% (+25% base = 45% DR)
R2 Stable: 60%, Unstable 1: 42.5%, Unstable 2: 25% (+25% base = 50% DR)
R3 Stable: 60%, Unstable 1: 45%, Unstable 2: 30% (+25% base = 55% DR)
This seems more appropriate to be honest. It STILL might even be too strong, given that CWs have alot of control now - making them more tanky - and still have alot of dodges. I dont want this power being AS worthless as before, I dont want to see the class nerfed into the ground, BTW, this rework is DOUBLE the effectiveness of before (15% DR to 30% now) but you went and OVER TRIPLED the power.....
The problem is that if you look at the damage, it's been plowed into the ground, and if your thaumaturge path assailiant is your only damage dealer. Oppressor & Renegade are jokes now and oppressor only being better because it's a little easier to get control on your targets. Since CW damage was unnecessarily nurfed for PvP, the ONLY way to survive and be able to get as much damage in PvP on live (which isn't much mind you) is to be able to tank for longer to have the damage add up, without assailiant on preview it literally takes 3-6 (9-10 on gwf/gf) rotations to kill ANYONE! Including other CWs WITHOUT shield! Not trying to punch the devs in the face but CWs can't rely on a single feat to have any damage in PvP whatsoever. This was testing on preview already and the damage CWs can max out is a flipping joke. And the only way for CWs to have the same damage on live is to have assailiant the way it is now. Granted it might seem overpowered, but in the time that you get assailiant to proc, you would have done almost the same damage with your encounters on live, on preview encounters are practically using your at-wills, and are now only good for their utility (control) and have negligable damage and is ****ing useless if someone is control immune.
CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
ON or OFF Spell Mastery, shield DR should be the same.
After
R1 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 25%
R2 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 30%
R3 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 35%
ON Mastery options
-Shield ae pulse Damage - no push
-Damage reflection -
-Celerity - Decreased casting time of encounter powers
-increased ae by 5 feet for all area effect powers
There are more options, these are just Ideas.
Actually adding a feat to Shield will help Oppressors and Renegade tree significantly.
Opressor - increase ae radius + damage reflection
Renegade- decreased casting time of encounters + Ae Pulse
I decided to test out oppressor on the dummies, just to do a full circle for a general idea.
Opp - 3,956,812 damage, 10,393 EncDPS
So, thaum gets the damage, oppressor some damage with control, what exactly does renegade get to make them special? Something that only benefits group play by providing combat advantage. Renegades need to have more than just nightmare wizardry to make them viable after the death of EoTS.
Not arguing with you on the damage, or the control. The feedback is that 50% DR + easily gotten 30% dr from stats puts you at the clamp of 80% too easily. You nor anyone else wants CW's to be the new TR nodeholders, do you? Huge DR + some control resists, dodging around, and getting a little control on the other guy. You are not a tank. And what about mixing shield and KV from a GF?
It raises the DR of the cloth wearing class too much, especially with other interactions. Give them things that are more in-line with their class, like control and damage. Don't make them more tanky than the fighter classes.