This has been posted before by others, Shield is too strong for PVP purposes. Most CWs in PVP easily run with 20-25% DR. Even at Unstable 2 this puts them almost at the DR cap - above even the tankiness of the Sentinel GWF or even a GWF IN UNSTOPPABLE...
I agree this power needed some love, this arguably went a little overboard... I think at MAX benefit, this power would give the CW as much DR - in mastery - as a Sentinel which is about 55% DR.
So Here would be my suggestion: (Note the +25% base, assumes the CW has 25% base DR so you can get an idea of their "final" DR with this power slotted.)
Normal
R1 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 15% (+25% base = 40% DR)
R2 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 20% (+25% base = 45% DR)
R3 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 25% (+25% base = 50% DR)
This seems more appropriate to be honest. It STILL might even be too strong, given that CWs have alot of control now - making them more tanky - and still have alot of dodges. I dont want this power being AS worthless as before, I dont want to see the class nerfed into the ground, BTW, this rework is DOUBLE the effectiveness of before (15% DR to 30% now) but you went and OVER TRIPLED the power.....
The problem is that if you look at the damage, it's been plowed into the ground, and if your thaumaturge path assailiant is your only damage dealer. Oppressor & Renegade are jokes now and oppressor only being better because it's a little easier to get control on your targets. Since CW damage was unnecessarily nurfed for PvP, the ONLY way to survive and be able to get as much damage in PvP on live (which isn't much mind you) is to be able to tank for longer to have the damage add up, without assailiant on preview it literally takes 3-6 (9-10 on gwf/gf) rotations to kill ANYONE! Including other CWs WITHOUT shield! Not trying to punch the devs in the face but CWs can't rely on a single feat to have any damage in PvP whatsoever. This was testing on preview already and the damage CWs can max out is a flipping joke. And the only way for CWs to have the same damage on live is to have assailiant the way it is now. Granted it might seem overpowered, but in the time that you get assailiant to proc, you would have done almost the same damage with your encounters on live, on preview encounters are practically using your at-wills, and are now only good for their utility (control) and have negligable damage and is ****ing useless if someone is control immune.
This has been posted before by others, Shield is too strong for PVP purposes. Most CWs in PVP easily run with 20-25% DR. Even at Unstable 2 this puts them almost at the DR cap - above even the tankiness of the Sentinel GWF or even a GWF IN UNSTOPPABLE...
I agree this power needed some love, this arguably went a little overboard... I think at MAX benefit, this power would give the CW as much DR - in mastery - as a Sentinel which is about 55% DR.
So Here would be my suggestion: (Note the +25% base, assumes the CW has 25% base DR so you can get an idea of their "final" DR with this power slotted.)
Normal
R1 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 15% (+25% base = 40% DR)
R2 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 20% (+25% base = 45% DR)
R3 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 25% (+25% base = 50% DR)
This seems more appropriate to be honest. It STILL might even be too strong, given that CWs have alot of control now - making them more tanky - and still have alot of dodges. I dont want this power being AS worthless as before, I dont want to see the class nerfed into the ground, BTW, this rework is DOUBLE the effectiveness of before (15% DR to 30% now) but you went and OVER TRIPLED the power.....
ON or OFF Spell Mastery, shield DR should be the same.
After
R1 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 25%
R2 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 30%
R3 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 35%
ON Mastery options
-Shield ae pulse Damage - no push
-Damage reflection -
-Celerity - Decreased casting time of encounter powers
-increased ae by 5 feet for all area effect powers
There are more options, these are just Ideas. Actually adding a feat to Shield will help Oppressors and Renegade tree significantly.
Opressor - increase ae radius + damage reflection
Renegade- decreased casting time of encounters + Ae Pulse
I decided to test out oppressor on the dummies, just to do a full circle for a general idea.
Opp - 3,956,812 damage, 10,393 EncDPS
So, thaum gets the damage, oppressor some damage with control, what exactly does renegade get to make them special? Something that only benefits group play by providing combat advantage. Renegades need to have more than just nightmare wizardry to make them viable after the death of EoTS.
The problem is that if you look at the damage, it's been plowed into the ground, and if your thaumaturge path assailiant is your only damage dealer. snip
Not arguing with you on the damage, or the control. The feedback is that 50% DR + easily gotten 30% dr from stats puts you at the clamp of 80% too easily. You nor anyone else wants CW's to be the new TR nodeholders, do you? Huge DR + some control resists, dodging around, and getting a little control on the other guy. You are not a tank. And what about mixing shield and KV from a GF?
It raises the DR of the cloth wearing class too much, especially with other interactions. Give them things that are more in-line with their class, like control and damage. Don't make them more tanky than the fighter classes.
CW has to take 4 separate feats to increase damage (arcane, cold, single target, area effect) Combine the 4 boosts to 1,2,3,4,5% damage
Move: Farspell into the Heroic Feat Tree 3,6,9,12,15 feet
Move: Severe Reaction into the Heroic Feat Tree 2,4,6,8,10 feet increase range to 30 feet
Move: Reapers Touch into the Heroic Feat Tree 4,8,12,16,20 feet
Add to Oppressor: (assist greatly with control and minimally with damage)
Icy Terrain increased area of effect 1,2,3,4,5 foot radius
Add to Thaumurgist: (assists slightly with Control)
Frostbite: Targets effected by chill have their movement decreased 2,4,6,8,10% per chill stack
Add to Renegade: (assist with survivability and damage)
Dysjunction .5/1/1.5/2/2.5% of shields blocked damage is reflected to attacker.
Rework: Controlling Action - 3/6/9% AP gain when using powers on controlled target, gain 1/2/3% Hp gain while controlled.
Rework: Masterful Arcane Theft - Steal time and Shield do 5/10/15/20/25% more damage, their casting time is also reduced .1/.2/.3/.4/.5 seconds. (this will bring some damage and control to Renegade similar to Thaums Transcended master)
Bug:
Shardslam/Evocation:
Evocation works only with 1 slam not with both slams when fired (verified on two test dummies with ACT). Lowest slam in test with slotted evocation was equal to Tooltip * 1,03, so only the arcane stack was applied
Shardplosion:
In some cases shard slams 2 dummies without exploding. Found a placing where it happens 5 times in a row before i stopped (not moving between the test shots)
Edit: Evocation is not working with Chilling cloud. 3rd hit is not affected. Even though tooltip damage shown is increased when evocation is slotted.
Tooltip damage:
Tooltip damage shown is still messed up with evocation. Ice storm/Chilling cloud/Steal time show an increase from slotted evocation, OF/Sudden Strom/Shard not.
ON or OFF Spell Mastery, shield DR should be the same.
After
R1 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 25%
R2 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 30%
R3 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 35%
ON Mastery options
-Shield ae pulse Damage - no push
-Damage reflection -
-Celerity - Decreased casting time of encounter powers
-increased ae by 5 feet for all area effect powers
There are more options, these are just Ideas. Actually adding a feat to Shield will help Oppressors and Renegade tree significantly.
Opressor - increase ae radius + damage reflection
Renegade- decreased casting time of encounters + Ae Pulse
I should clarify how shield works. It is NOT additive DR. It is not pushing wizards to the DR cap. It operates to absorb damage after their damage resistance has activated on it. So in practical terms it causes their DR to act as if it were X% greater than it is.
So for example
A wizard has 25% DR and his R1 shield is stable. YOu hit him with 1000 damage. The damage calculation would go as follows
1000 * .75 * .5 = 375
NOT 1000 * .25 = 250
This is a really important differentiation because their DR is still very important to how they resist damage because the shield acts after it.
Not to mention they do lose a full encounter slot to keep this multiplicative absorb on (or they activate the push and lose it, either way).
So this is definitely not putting wizards anywhere near Fighters OR the Resist cap on average. While it is possible a wizard is stacking defense and could get up that high, it is fairly unlikely to remain all that long
For reference purposes with R3 Stable and Unstable (Mastery and non Mastery) a wizard would need the following BASE DR values to reach the 80% resistance cap.
Well,the Shard remains as bugged as ever at preview. Sometimes i push it but it doesn't move ,sometimes it goes through enemies ,like they aren't there, and other times it materializes at a different position than the one i cast it at. It's the same as on Live,so no changes here.
P.S. After Assailing Force i see that the time has come for Shield too.Well the moment we get some good spells that might give cws some competitiveness in PvP , cries of OP and Nerf arise.It seems some people want cws to be nothing more than punching bags.Shield is just fine,don't change it for the worst but,if you must, only for the better,after all the amount of damage a cw has to sacrifice by slotting it on Tab,for maximum effect,is considerable ,so it's a fair exchange. People seem to forget this.
It's BUGS bunny i tell you.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
I should clarify how shield works. It is NOT additive DR. It is not pushing wizards to the DR cap. It operates to absorb damage after their damage resistance has activated on it. So in practical terms it causes their DR to act as if it were X% greater than it is.
So for example
A wizard has 25% DR and his R1 shield is stable. YOu hit him with 1000 damage. The damage calculation would go as follows
1000 * .75 * .5 = 375
NOT 1000 * .25 = 250
This is a really important differentiation because their DR is still very important to how they resist damage because the shield acts after it.
Not to mention they do lose a full encounter slot to keep this multiplicative absorb on (or they activate the push and lose it, either way).
So this is definitely not putting wizards anywhere near Fighters OR the Resist cap on average. While it is possible a wizard is stacking defense and could get up that high, it is fairly unlikely to remain all that long
For reference purposes with R3 Stable and Unstable (Mastery and non Mastery) a wizard would need the following BASE DR values to reach the 80% resistance cap.
Stable: 53.36%
Unstable: 59.79%
Mastery Stable: 44.44%
Mastery Unstable: 57.12%
I dont get it i have 14.5 k cw no pvp set .
From executioner 16k full on (6800 power)dps he have 25 % arp (P.vorpal) TR LB crit hit on me 2345 dmg shild tab sloted i dont even started my attack my DMR is 28 % and i have zero tenacity if you alow me to make a vid or place some screenhot here i can proove this is true.
I dont get it i have 14.5 k cw no pvp set .
From executioner 16k full on (6800 power)dps he have 25 % arp (P.vorpal) TR LB crit hit on me 2345 dmg shild tab sloted i dont even started my attack my DMR is 28 % and i have zero tenacity if you alow me to make a vid or place some screenhot here i can proove this is true.
That sounds correct.
You have 28% Resist, and he has 25% resistance ignored and your Mastery Shield is stable.
Therefore the algebra should look a little like this
x * (1 - (.28-.25)) * (1 - .8) = 2345
x * (.97) * (.2) = 2345
x * (.97) = 2345/.2 = 11725
x = 11725/.97 = 12087
That looks almost exactly correct (although all attacks have variance, so this one probably hit the low end part of the tooltip).
I should clarify how shield works. It is NOT additive DR. It is not pushing wizards to the DR cap. It operates to absorb damage after their damage resistance has activated on it. So in practical terms it causes their DR to act as if it were X% greater than it is.
So for example
A wizard has 25% DR and his R1 shield is stable. YOu hit him with 1000 damage. The damage calculation would go as follows
1000 * .75 * .5 = 375
NOT 1000 * .25 = 250
This is a really important differentiation because their DR is still very important to how they resist damage because the shield acts after it.
Not to mention they do lose a full encounter slot to keep this multiplicative absorb on (or they activate the push and lose it, either way).
So this is definitely not putting wizards anywhere near Fighters OR the Resist cap on average. While it is possible a wizard is stacking defense and could get up that high, it is fairly unlikely to remain all that long
For reference purposes with R3 Stable and Unstable (Mastery and non Mastery) a wizard would need the following BASE DR values to reach the 80% resistance cap.
Stable: 53.36%
Unstable: 59.79%
Mastery Stable: 44.44%
Mastery Unstable: 57.12%
Feedback : Shield
I'd like to ad that shield has greatly increased my survivability and thank you for that. However i feel like it isn't absorbing as much damage as you claim,i haven't done a thorough testing though so it is my subjective opinion and not a fact ,hence the Blue Feedback instead of a red bug post.
P.S. Thank you for clarifying that,it is absurd how some people behave.By reading some posts I sometimes feel that there must be some short of enmity against Cws. I simply can't explain the constant Nerf, Nerf, Nerf litany i keep reading,despite all the Huge nerfs that have already been done to the class.
Well,the Shard remains as bugged as ever at preview. Sometimes i push it but it doesn't move ,sometimes it goes through enemies ,like they aren't there, and other times it materializes at a different position than the one i cast it at. It's the same as on Live,so no changes here.
P.S. After Assailing Force i see that the time has come for Shield too.Well the moment we get some good spells that might give cws some competitiveness in PvP , cries of OP and Nerf arise.It seems some people want cws to be nothing more than punching bags.Shield is just fine,don't change it for the worst but,if you must, only for the better,after all the amount of damage a cw has to sacrifice by slotting it on Tab,for maximum effect,is considerable ,so it's a fair exchange. People seem to forget this.
The first two are glitches but the last one where it goes where u don't place it, the shard and all other AoE abilities need flat ground on their casting point (the very center) and if you cast it on a steep hill it will place it in the closest flat area. if you cast split the sky for example right right next to a steep mountain the radius will go up the mountain, but if you cast it on the actual mountain it will slide the center back down to the first available flat spot. This is from personal experience since they opened up the new PvPing areas. (since both domination maps are really flat xD) So it's not really a glitch it's just the way the abilities were made, (or the only way they can operate)
You have 28% Resist, and he has 25% resistance ignored and your Mastery Shield is stable.
Therefore the algebra should look a little like this
x * (1 - (.28-.25)) * (1 - .8) = 2345
x * (.97) * (.2) = 2345
x * (.97) = 2345/.2 = 11725
x = 11725/.97 = 12087
That looks almost exactly correct (although all attacks have variance, so this one probably hit the low end part of the tooltip).
The problem is with tenacity + BI gear or stacked DR CW got not noticeable DPS from hardest encounters from hardest hitting classes.
Even in pve set i need only do little work for timing my teleports so i can have more time to focus on at-wills encounters or daly so i dont lose a full encounter slot i gain more and more advantage.
The only true challenge for CW in pvp is HR or another CW and in my eyes this is not balance.
Thanks for the details. Youve probably thought about this, but this potentially makes it even MORE powerful since it seems like ARP wont be able to negate it... So you suggested base DR plays a big roll, but actually most classes in PVP run MORE than 25% ARP, so CWs BASE DR doesnt come unto play being that its fully negated, and now ontop of that, this CW shield cant be mitigated by DR? Since your calculations im guessing only work in another level of DR like Tenacity? Maybe I am wrong but dont see how ARP can negate part of the shield if its on another level like this...
Like you posted above 1000 damage comes in, assume 25% base DR & on Mastery (broken = 50%) slot but attack is dealt with a 33% ARP (alot of GWFs/GFs have this or more) ARP.
I assume it works like this then...
1000 comes in, 25% DR is mitigated by 33% ARP to 0% DR (doesnt go negative). So THEN shield steps up and mitigates (broken) 50% of the damage on its own level, and THEN tenacity after that.
So now its at 500 (50% of 1000). Then tenacity kicks in? So another -100 (@ 20%) down to 400 damage....
So total it still was a 60% DR boost to the CW (with tenacity). Lets compare to a fighter. My GF has about 50% DR. BUT! Alot of that is mitigated via ARP.
So 1000 comes in, lets say attacker only has 25% ARP versus my 50% DR. Now my GF takes 750 damage. net 20% tenacity = 600 damage....
So on 1000 damage the CW took 400 and GF took 600.... Unless I am understanding this right...?
The huge advantage with CWs and tenacity is that tenacity (and I assume shield works this way too?) benefits squishy targets the MOST, so for a CW in pvp there is actually no point to stack DR because of ARP, this allows tenacity @ 20% to be a FULL 20% DR boost to them, where as on a GF or GWF with 50% base DR its about HALF as effective....
Maybe you can clarify....
Tenacity is an actual Multiplier on your resistance. If you manage to negate someone to zero resistance then their tenacity does nothing
Armor Penetration DOES indirectly act on Tenacity in this way, because tenacity mutliplies your resistance, but if your resistance is zero then you get nothing from it. TL;DR Arpen counters Tenacity.
Time for another example!
Wizard with 25% DR, 30% Tenacity, and R3 Shield Unstable in Mastery takes 15000 damage
15000 * (1 - (.25 * 1.3)) * (1 - .5) = 5062.5 for a total REAL resist of 67%
Now what if the player hitting him has more than 25% armor pen? It looks like this!
15000 * (1 - ((.25-.25) * 1.3)) * (1 - .5) = 7500 or a real resist of 50%. Just the R3 Mastery shield. Your armor penetration in this case increased your damage by nearly 50%.
This is the MAJOR reason wizards exploded so fast before. Once shield was depleted it acted for such a small amount (or none at all if it was R1 or you didn't slot it) that you could deal an incredible amount of bonus damage.
Another way to look at it is as follows. The more tenacity the opponent has, the more valuable EACH POINT OF ARPEN YOU CARRY IS! In this case it makes up a substantive portion of your possible outgoing damage. Also, it is far more efficient than power in PVP up to almost 35~38% resistance ignored (just from the stat ARPen) when your foe has tenacity. This obviously has a breakpoint based on how much tenacity the foe has and so on and so forth, but this also means that there is a hard cap on how much bonus damage you can leverage on wizards, but against foes with more DR you can do substantially more damage.
Hopefully that clears up some of the math behind it.
However all that said, shield is probably retaining a tad too much resist while unstable. Therefore I will be reducing it slightly.
Shield will go down to retaining 25% of its effectiveness while destabilized. It dose this in 1 step in normal slots and 2 steps in Mastery Slots.
I played a CW since BETA both PvE and PvP and here are the powers I would never consider using because they suck compared to the others.
Stormfury - Storm spell is a way better choice. Maybe add a chance to stun? So it does less damage but gives more control than Storm spell?
Maelstrom of Chaos - Take to long to land and does way less damage than oppressive force/Ice knife and Singularity has way more control. Needs a complete rework.
Chilling Presence - To little damage compared to Eye of the Storm, Storm spell and now the buffed Orb of Imposition.
Arcane Presence - Same as above
Ice Storm - Easy to dodge and spreads out all enemies and takes long to land. And now wont gain extra chill with Oppressor. Needs a rework. This is like the opposite of control.
And then we have some powers that I feel need a buff in PvP:
Ice Knife - Way to easy to dodge. Its easy to dodge even on live.
Chill strike - Would be nice to add an extra chill stack on this. Its slow and can be dodged, would be nice with some extra control. Before it was good with Oppressor because of 3 chill stacks.
Icy Terrain - This one I never liked, but in M4 this might be more useful. BUT, I think it needs a little bigger radius like Thorn ward.
Icy Rays - Needs a fix for when you mark the enemy and he walks out of the range, it resets the cooldown.
Shard of the Endless Avalanche - The explosion needs a 30-60% damage buff when TABBED for PvP.Also needs to fix the bug when it often wont explode when it should.
Shield - I like the new buff but I would like a stun to enemies on "explode".
The rework on shield was expected, nothing to say about that.
Now Crush it's time to address those issues.
-Shard still crits like an at-will for 1/2 k in PVP or deflected for 500dmg on mastery and it's a lvl 50 capstone encounter. This power is a JOKE now and needs a rework on mastery for pvp.(!!!!!!!)
-The casting on Entangling force is supposed to be like live server, but feels longer.
-The radious of Icy terrain is 30/40% less compared to every other class similar spells. (the opponent needs to be literally in your face to get hit by it).
-Ice knife's longer casting time is unnecessary since this daily was already pretty easy to dodge.
-Orb of imposition is inconsistent, something's wrong with it.
-Icy rays goes on cooldown for like 13 seconds everytime the enemy goes out of range.
Wonder if those are gonna be addressed as fast as assailing and shield.
Tenacity is an actual Multiplier on your resistance. If you manage to negate someone to zero resistance then their tenacity does nothing
Armor Penetration DOES indirectly act on Tenacity in this way, because tenacity mutliplies your resistance, but if your resistance is zero then you get nothing from it. TL;DR Arpen counters Tenacity.
Time for another example!
Wizard with 25% DR, 30% Tenacity, and R3 Shield Unstable in Mastery takes 15000 damage
15000 * (1 - (.25 * 1.3)) * (1 - .5) = 5062.5 for a total REAL resist of 67%
Now what if the player hitting him has more than 25% armor pen? It looks like this!
15000 * (1 - ((.25-.25) * 1.3)) * (1 - .5) = 7500 or a real resist of 50%. Just the R3 Mastery shield. Your armor penetration in this case increased your damage by nearly 50%.
This is the MAJOR reason wizards exploded so fast before. Once shield was depleted it acted for such a small amount (or none at all if it was R1 or you didn't slot it) that you could deal an incredible amount of bonus damage.
Another way to look at it is as follows. The more tenacity the opponent has, the more valuable EACH POINT OF ARPEN YOU CARRY IS! In this case it makes up a substantive portion of your possible outgoing damage. Also, it is far more efficient than power in PVP up to almost 35~38% resistance ignored (just from the stat ARPen) when your foe has tenacity. This obviously has a breakpoint based on how much tenacity the foe has and so on and so forth, but this also means that there is a hard cap on how much bonus damage you can leverage on wizards, but against foes with more DR you can do substantially more damage.
Hopefully that clears up some of the math behind it.
However all that said, shield is probably retaining a tad too much resist while unstable. Therefore I will be reducing it slightly.
Shield will go down to retaining 25% of its effectiveness while destabilized. It dose this in 1 step in normal slots and 2 steps in Mastery Slots.
With this new reduction in shield, how will the CWs in PvP be able to keep up their damage aswell as their defence? All the single target abilities were giving damage reductions, even though they were already under preforming in PvP. I know why CWs was getting nurfed in the first place because it's the highest damage dealer in dungeons, but in dungeons CWs get their damage from AoEs, NOT single target attacks. If anything the single target attacks that were nurfed, (Chill Strike, Entangling Force, ect) should get a damage increase because of how ineffective they are now, (I literally CANNOT kill ANYONE in PvP without Assailing Force, and even that is getting nurfed!) I can't PvP if I don't have single target damage... Giving CWs back the damage on single target abilities is a must if CWs can't be tanky with shield. As of right now they will be even worse in PvP then on live server, and if you scroll through the top few pages on the leaderboard, CWs are HORRIBLY under preforming in PvP and need the single target damage if they are ever going to rise from being the least-requested & least-effective in PvP. I also don't really understand the basis for giving single target attacks damage nurfs, while they are only slotted for PvP, thus have no place in dungeons which is really why you guys gave so many nurfs to CW...
Wait, what? Why does it work like that? Let's take just the Tenacity part.
15000 * (1 - ((.25-.25) * 1.3))
Why isn't it
15000 * ((1 - .25) * (1 - .3)) or even just 15000 * ((1 - .25) / (1.3))
making mitigation from Tenacity not rely on base mitigation? Why wasn't this explained when Tenacity also offered Armor Penetration Reduction and people were clamoring to have that removed? Would you consider restoring the Armor Penetration Reduction to Tenacity or changing the formula so it's applied separately from regular mitigation? Because judging from the implications of that formula, damage resistance derived from Tenacity is entirely trivial; i.e. at 25% DR and 20% Tenacity, the total DR is 30%, and it drops very quickly with any Armor Penetration, which just about any serious PvP character has quite a bit of.
I went and looked up the formula again and I made an error when reading the parenthesis for the first post I made on the math.
It is indeed Damage * (1-Dres) * (1-Tenacity) * (1-Shield).
While the net effect is similar, it means that being reduced to zero Dres does NOT negate your tenacity.
Additionally this is one of the original reasons that Arpen Resistance was removed.
Apologies, I misread the formula when doing the research for the first post.
With this new reduction in shield, how will the CWs in PvP be able to keep up their damage aswell as their defence? All the single target abilities were giving damage reductions, even though they were already under preforming in PvP. I know why CWs was getting nurfed in the first place because it's the highest damage dealer in dungeons, but in dungeons CWs get their damage from AoEs, NOT single target attacks. If anything the single target attacks that were nurfed, (Chill Strike, Entangling Force, ect) should get a damage increase because of how ineffective they are now, (I literally CANNOT kill ANYONE in PvP without Assailing Force, and even that is getting nurfed!) I can't PvP if I don't have single target damage... Giving CWs back the damage on single target abilities is a must if CWs can't be tanky with shield. As of right now they will be even worse in PvP then on live server, and if you scroll through the top few pages on the leaderboard, CWs are HORRIBLY under preforming in PvP and need the single target damage if they are ever going to rise from being the least-requested & least-effective in PvP. I also don't really understand the basis for giving single target attacks damage nurfs, while they are only slotted for PvP, thus have no place in dungeons which is really why you guys gave so many nurfs to CW...
Yes please, and thank you. Single target and Fanning the Flame are all too low.
Shard of endless avalanche is completely useless now, yes it prones for a decent amount of time, but the encounter is already effected by armor pen, and a critical hit is doing less than 1k on a GF/GWF/DC/HR and TR's with perfect vorpal (which i will be swapping out for gpf next mod anyway), conduit of ice is more effective CC and dmg then boulder is at the moment.. this should not be the case for an encounter unlocked at lvl 55 combat.
- shard needs atleast a 20-40% buff or keep the prone and change it so if more than 5 targets are hit, make it then do 50% less damage to all targets. that way it would keep it viable for PVP and nerfed severely in PVE
I've recommended replacing shard with the "icewind dale Arcanist" power "meteor Swarm/Storm" not sure which it's called. AE prone that doesnt have the targeting issues associated with Nerf Ball.
With this new reduction in shield, how will the CWs in PvP be able to keep up their damage aswell as their defence? All the single target abilities were giving damage reductions, even though they were already under preforming in PvP. I know why CWs was getting nurfed in the first place because it's the highest damage dealer in dungeons, but in dungeons CWs get their damage from AoEs, NOT single target attacks. If anything the single target attacks that were nurfed, (Chill Strike, Entangling Force, ect) should get a damage increase because of how ineffective they are now, (I literally CANNOT kill ANYONE in PvP without Assailing Force, and even that is getting nurfed!) I can't PvP if I don't have single target damage... Giving CWs back the damage on single target abilities is a must if CWs can't be tanky with shield. As of right now they will be even worse in PvP then on live server, and if you scroll through the top few pages on the leaderboard, CWs are HORRIBLY under preforming in PvP and need the single target damage if they are ever going to rise from being the least-requested & least-effective in PvP. I also don't really understand the basis for giving single target attacks damage nurfs, while they are only slotted for PvP, thus have no place in dungeons which is really why you guys gave so many nurfs to CW...
+1
The original buff made to shield actually allowed CWs to have a fair fight with any class.
Now that our single target encounters have been needlessly nerfed in damage and an aoe power used in pvp nerfed because of pve (yes, shard), I see no reason to reduce the original buff of shield. If you're taking away ability to kill, you need to give ability to survive and vice-versa.
-Leave shield the way it was originally buffed
-Nerf Steal Time damage by an appropriate amount and boost Shard damage 20-40%
-Allow Icy Terrain radius to increase with each additional point put into the power
-Reduce or otherwise give an option to reduce the cooldown of EotS to 15-20sec (1st/2nd tier Rene feat)
-Buff single target powers to be competitive with slotting shield, instead of nerfing shield to their level
-Rework Controlling Action/Battlewise/Lightning Teleport Heroic feats
Yep , it does seem pretty strange that the only people GC seems to take any notice of in the CW feedback thread is a GWF/GF neither of who have been playtesting a CW and are pretty much constantly calling for CW to be nerfed , nerfed , nerfed , so sad GC is so easily manipulated and doesn't seem to have a mind of his own , guess its easy CW kills again in mod 4 while GWF/GF gets more and more powerful with each suggestion....
Exactly what i was saying.
And i'm against replacing of shard (or any other spell) with a new encounter, this power especially is the key to a lot of people's builds in pvp and pve and remove it would only make things worse.
We should fix and rework things if needed, not replace them.
Comments
The problem is that if you look at the damage, it's been plowed into the ground, and if your thaumaturge path assailiant is your only damage dealer. Oppressor & Renegade are jokes now and oppressor only being better because it's a little easier to get control on your targets. Since CW damage was unnecessarily nurfed for PvP, the ONLY way to survive and be able to get as much damage in PvP on live (which isn't much mind you) is to be able to tank for longer to have the damage add up, without assailiant on preview it literally takes 3-6 (9-10 on gwf/gf) rotations to kill ANYONE! Including other CWs WITHOUT shield! Not trying to punch the devs in the face but CWs can't rely on a single feat to have any damage in PvP whatsoever. This was testing on preview already and the damage CWs can max out is a flipping joke. And the only way for CWs to have the same damage on live is to have assailiant the way it is now. Granted it might seem overpowered, but in the time that you get assailiant to proc, you would have done almost the same damage with your encounters on live, on preview encounters are practically using your at-wills, and are now only good for their utility (control) and have negligable damage and is ****ing useless if someone is control immune.
CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
ON or OFF Spell Mastery, shield DR should be the same.
After
R1 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 25%
R2 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 30%
R3 Stable: 50%, Unstable: 35%
ON Mastery options
-Shield ae pulse Damage - no push
-Damage reflection -
-Celerity - Decreased casting time of encounter powers
-increased ae by 5 feet for all area effect powers
There are more options, these are just Ideas.
Actually adding a feat to Shield will help Oppressors and Renegade tree significantly.
Opressor - increase ae radius + damage reflection
Renegade- decreased casting time of encounters + Ae Pulse
I decided to test out oppressor on the dummies, just to do a full circle for a general idea.
Opp - 3,956,812 damage, 10,393 EncDPS
So, thaum gets the damage, oppressor some damage with control, what exactly does renegade get to make them special? Something that only benefits group play by providing combat advantage. Renegades need to have more than just nightmare wizardry to make them viable after the death of EoTS.
Not arguing with you on the damage, or the control. The feedback is that 50% DR + easily gotten 30% dr from stats puts you at the clamp of 80% too easily. You nor anyone else wants CW's to be the new TR nodeholders, do you? Huge DR + some control resists, dodging around, and getting a little control on the other guy. You are not a tank. And what about mixing shield and KV from a GF?
It raises the DR of the cloth wearing class too much, especially with other interactions. Give them things that are more in-line with their class, like control and damage. Don't make them more tanky than the fighter classes.
Move: Farspell into the Heroic Feat Tree 3,6,9,12,15 feet
Move: Severe Reaction into the Heroic Feat Tree 2,4,6,8,10 feet increase range to 30 feet
Move: Reapers Touch into the Heroic Feat Tree 4,8,12,16,20 feet
Add to Oppressor: (assist greatly with control and minimally with damage)
Icy Terrain increased area of effect 1,2,3,4,5 foot radius
Add to Thaumurgist: (assists slightly with Control)
Frostbite: Targets effected by chill have their movement decreased 2,4,6,8,10% per chill stack
Add to Renegade: (assist with survivability and damage)
Dysjunction .5/1/1.5/2/2.5% of shields blocked damage is reflected to attacker.
Rework: Controlling Action - 3/6/9% AP gain when using powers on controlled target, gain 1/2/3% Hp gain while controlled.
Rework: Masterful Arcane Theft - Steal time and Shield do 5/10/15/20/25% more damage, their casting time is also reduced .1/.2/.3/.4/.5 seconds. (this will bring some damage and control to Renegade similar to Thaums Transcended master)
Shardslam/Evocation:
Evocation works only with 1 slam not with both slams when fired (verified on two test dummies with ACT). Lowest slam in test with slotted evocation was equal to Tooltip * 1,03, so only the arcane stack was applied
Shardplosion:
In some cases shard slams 2 dummies without exploding. Found a placing where it happens 5 times in a row before i stopped (not moving between the test shots)
Edit: Evocation is not working with Chilling cloud. 3rd hit is not affected. Even though tooltip damage shown is increased when evocation is slotted.
Tooltip damage:
Tooltip damage shown is still messed up with evocation. Ice storm/Chilling cloud/Steal time show an increase from slotted evocation, OF/Sudden Strom/Shard not.
Yalaia
I should clarify how shield works. It is NOT additive DR. It is not pushing wizards to the DR cap. It operates to absorb damage after their damage resistance has activated on it. So in practical terms it causes their DR to act as if it were X% greater than it is.
So for example
A wizard has 25% DR and his R1 shield is stable. YOu hit him with 1000 damage. The damage calculation would go as follows
1000 * .75 * .5 = 375
NOT 1000 * .25 = 250
This is a really important differentiation because their DR is still very important to how they resist damage because the shield acts after it.
Not to mention they do lose a full encounter slot to keep this multiplicative absorb on (or they activate the push and lose it, either way).
So this is definitely not putting wizards anywhere near Fighters OR the Resist cap on average. While it is possible a wizard is stacking defense and could get up that high, it is fairly unlikely to remain all that long
For reference purposes with R3 Stable and Unstable (Mastery and non Mastery) a wizard would need the following BASE DR values to reach the 80% resistance cap.
Stable: 53.36%
Unstable: 59.79%
Mastery Stable: 44.44%
Mastery Unstable: 57.12%
Well,the Shard remains as bugged as ever at preview. Sometimes i push it but it doesn't move ,sometimes it goes through enemies ,like they aren't there, and other times it materializes at a different position than the one i cast it at. It's the same as on Live,so no changes here.
P.S. After Assailing Force i see that the time has come for Shield too.Well the moment we get some good spells that might give cws some competitiveness in PvP , cries of OP and Nerf arise.It seems some people want cws to be nothing more than punching bags.Shield is just fine,don't change it for the worst but,if you must, only for the better,after all the amount of damage a cw has to sacrifice by slotting it on Tab,for maximum effect,is considerable ,so it's a fair exchange. People seem to forget this.
I dont get it i have 14.5 k cw no pvp set .
From executioner 16k full on (6800 power)dps he have 25 % arp (P.vorpal) TR LB crit hit on me 2345 dmg shild tab sloted i dont even started my attack my DMR is 28 % and i have zero tenacity if you alow me to make a vid or place some screenhot here i can proove this is true.
That sounds correct.
You have 28% Resist, and he has 25% resistance ignored and your Mastery Shield is stable.
Therefore the algebra should look a little like this
x * (1 - (.28-.25)) * (1 - .8) = 2345
x * (.97) * (.2) = 2345
x * (.97) = 2345/.2 = 11725
x = 11725/.97 = 12087
That looks almost exactly correct (although all attacks have variance, so this one probably hit the low end part of the tooltip).
Feedback : Shield
I'd like to ad that shield has greatly increased my survivability and thank you for that. However i feel like it isn't absorbing as much damage as you claim,i haven't done a thorough testing though so it is my subjective opinion and not a fact ,hence the Blue Feedback instead of a red bug post.
P.S. Thank you for clarifying that,it is absurd how some people behave.By reading some posts I sometimes feel that there must be some short of enmity against Cws. I simply can't explain the constant Nerf, Nerf, Nerf litany i keep reading,despite all the Huge nerfs that have already been done to the class.
The first two are glitches but the last one where it goes where u don't place it, the shard and all other AoE abilities need flat ground on their casting point (the very center) and if you cast it on a steep hill it will place it in the closest flat area. if you cast split the sky for example right right next to a steep mountain the radius will go up the mountain, but if you cast it on the actual mountain it will slide the center back down to the first available flat spot. This is from personal experience since they opened up the new PvPing areas. (since both domination maps are really flat xD) So it's not really a glitch it's just the way the abilities were made, (or the only way they can operate)
CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
The problem is with tenacity + BI gear or stacked DR CW got not noticeable DPS from hardest encounters from hardest hitting classes.
Even in pve set i need only do little work for timing my teleports so i can have more time to focus on at-wills encounters or daly so i dont lose a full encounter slot i gain more and more advantage.
The only true challenge for CW in pvp is HR or another CW and in my eyes this is not balance.
Tenacity is an actual Multiplier on your resistance. If you manage to negate someone to zero resistance then their tenacity does nothing
Armor Penetration DOES indirectly act on Tenacity in this way, because tenacity mutliplies your resistance, but if your resistance is zero then you get nothing from it. TL;DR Arpen counters Tenacity.
Time for another example!
Wizard with 25% DR, 30% Tenacity, and R3 Shield Unstable in Mastery takes 15000 damage
15000 * (1 - (.25 * 1.3)) * (1 - .5) = 5062.5 for a total REAL resist of 67%
Now what if the player hitting him has more than 25% armor pen? It looks like this!
15000 * (1 - ((.25-.25) * 1.3)) * (1 - .5) = 7500 or a real resist of 50%. Just the R3 Mastery shield. Your armor penetration in this case increased your damage by nearly 50%.
This is the MAJOR reason wizards exploded so fast before. Once shield was depleted it acted for such a small amount (or none at all if it was R1 or you didn't slot it) that you could deal an incredible amount of bonus damage.
Another way to look at it is as follows. The more tenacity the opponent has, the more valuable EACH POINT OF ARPEN YOU CARRY IS! In this case it makes up a substantive portion of your possible outgoing damage. Also, it is far more efficient than power in PVP up to almost 35~38% resistance ignored (just from the stat ARPen) when your foe has tenacity. This obviously has a breakpoint based on how much tenacity the foe has and so on and so forth, but this also means that there is a hard cap on how much bonus damage you can leverage on wizards, but against foes with more DR you can do substantially more damage.
Hopefully that clears up some of the math behind it.
However all that said, shield is probably retaining a tad too much resist while unstable. Therefore I will be reducing it slightly.
Shield will go down to retaining 25% of its effectiveness while destabilized. It dose this in 1 step in normal slots and 2 steps in Mastery Slots.
Stormfury - Storm spell is a way better choice. Maybe add a chance to stun? So it does less damage but gives more control than Storm spell?
Maelstrom of Chaos - Take to long to land and does way less damage than oppressive force/Ice knife and Singularity has way more control. Needs a complete rework.
Chilling Presence - To little damage compared to Eye of the Storm, Storm spell and now the buffed Orb of Imposition.
Arcane Presence - Same as above
Ice Storm - Easy to dodge and spreads out all enemies and takes long to land. And now wont gain extra chill with Oppressor. Needs a rework. This is like the opposite of control.
And then we have some powers that I feel need a buff in PvP:
Ice Knife - Way to easy to dodge. Its easy to dodge even on live.
Chill strike - Would be nice to add an extra chill stack on this. Its slow and can be dodged, would be nice with some extra control. Before it was good with Oppressor because of 3 chill stacks.
Icy Terrain - This one I never liked, but in M4 this might be more useful. BUT, I think it needs a little bigger radius like Thorn ward.
Icy Rays - Needs a fix for when you mark the enemy and he walks out of the range, it resets the cooldown.
Shard of the Endless Avalanche - The explosion needs a 30-60% damage buff when TABBED for PvP. Also needs to fix the bug when it often wont explode when it should.
Shield - I like the new buff but I would like a stun to enemies on "explode".
Now Crush it's time to address those issues.
-Shard still crits like an at-will for 1/2 k in PVP or deflected for 500dmg on mastery and it's a lvl 50 capstone encounter. This power is a JOKE now and needs a rework on mastery for pvp.(!!!!!!!)
-The casting on Entangling force is supposed to be like live server, but feels longer.
-The radious of Icy terrain is 30/40% less compared to every other class similar spells. (the opponent needs to be literally in your face to get hit by it).
-Ice knife's longer casting time is unnecessary since this daily was already pretty easy to dodge.
-Orb of imposition is inconsistent, something's wrong with it.
-Icy rays goes on cooldown for like 13 seconds everytime the enemy goes out of range.
Wonder if those are gonna be addressed as fast as assailing and shield.
With this new reduction in shield, how will the CWs in PvP be able to keep up their damage aswell as their defence? All the single target abilities were giving damage reductions, even though they were already under preforming in PvP. I know why CWs was getting nurfed in the first place because it's the highest damage dealer in dungeons, but in dungeons CWs get their damage from AoEs, NOT single target attacks. If anything the single target attacks that were nurfed, (Chill Strike, Entangling Force, ect) should get a damage increase because of how ineffective they are now, (I literally CANNOT kill ANYONE in PvP without Assailing Force, and even that is getting nurfed!) I can't PvP if I don't have single target damage... Giving CWs back the damage on single target abilities is a must if CWs can't be tanky with shield. As of right now they will be even worse in PvP then on live server, and if you scroll through the top few pages on the leaderboard, CWs are HORRIBLY under preforming in PvP and need the single target damage if they are ever going to rise from being the least-requested & least-effective in PvP. I also don't really understand the basis for giving single target attacks damage nurfs, while they are only slotted for PvP, thus have no place in dungeons which is really why you guys gave so many nurfs to CW...
CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
I went and looked up the formula again and I made an error when reading the parenthesis for the first post I made on the math.
It is indeed Damage * (1-Dres) * (1-Tenacity) * (1-Shield).
While the net effect is similar, it means that being reduced to zero Dres does NOT negate your tenacity.
Additionally this is one of the original reasons that Arpen Resistance was removed.
Apologies, I misread the formula when doing the research for the first post.
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Arpen only reduces base DR. It does not interact with Armor Penetration at all.
Yes please, and thank you. Single target and Fanning the Flame are all too low.
- shard needs atleast a 20-40% buff or keep the prone and change it so if more than 5 targets are hit, make it then do 50% less damage to all targets. that way it would keep it viable for PVP and nerfed severely in PVE
+1
The original buff made to shield actually allowed CWs to have a fair fight with any class.
Now that our single target encounters have been needlessly nerfed in damage and an aoe power used in pvp nerfed because of pve (yes, shard), I see no reason to reduce the original buff of shield. If you're taking away ability to kill, you need to give ability to survive and vice-versa.
-Leave shield the way it was originally buffed
-Nerf Steal Time damage by an appropriate amount and boost Shard damage 20-40%
-Allow Icy Terrain radius to increase with each additional point put into the power
-Reduce or otherwise give an option to reduce the cooldown of EotS to 15-20sec (1st/2nd tier Rene feat)
-Buff single target powers to be competitive with slotting shield, instead of nerfing shield to their level
-Rework Controlling Action/Battlewise/Lightning Teleport Heroic feats
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Exactly what i was saying.
And i'm against replacing of shard (or any other spell) with a new encounter, this power especially is the key to a lot of people's builds in pvp and pve and remove it would only make things worse.
We should fix and rework things if needed, not replace them.