Hey all! I wanted to drop in and let you know about a handful more changes to GWFs (mostly to Sentinels) that should be in the next patch. It is looking like the new patch with all the changes that have been talked about are hitting this week barring anything going wrong.
We wanted to look at Sentinel's place as tanks and improve that behavior while returning a little more survivability to Unstoppable as a whole. We felt that improving threat generation on some Sentinel feats as well as making them slightly more desirable for tanks would go a long way to helping out their role. As such we are making the following changes.
Powers
Unstoppable now grants 10~20% Damage Resistance (up from 5~10%).
Feats
Intimidation: Not So Fast and Daring Shout now deal 10/20/30/40/50% of your Power as damage (up from 2/4/6/8/10%) and while targets are Intimidated you deal 10/20/30/40/50% more threat to them (up from 5/10/15/20/25%).
Grudge Style: Sure Strike and Reaping Strike both generate 10/20/30/40/50% more threat (up from 5/10/15/20/25%).
Master At Arms: Having Weapon Master slotted now also increases threat generation by 10/20/30/40/50%.
Thank you all for your continued feedback.
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Very much appreciated. As a destroyer, I could probably take this nerfed version of Unstoppable, assuming the Sprint changes stay in place (although will test this further, once changes are implemented to ensure that this is still viable- lower GS and sub-60 GWFs will still find it hard). Will Sentinel's capstone feat damage resistcance multiplier to Unstoppable be adjusted accordingly? (I hope I am not missing something)
Also, I have read the clarification/reasons for changing prones to stuns in PvP. I am interpreting this as a programming challenge (to introduce deflect while prone or reducing the animation times of prones). So my question here is, will this workaround (prone to stun) be temporary, until you figure a more appropriate workaround. I can relate to the frustration of PvP GWFs that the stun may be of insufficient duration (even with the proposed increased durations) to be useful (for follow-up with IBS, etc.), when tenacity takes effect. Kindly suggest.
And once again, quite glad that you are absorbing all this feedback and adjusting the changes accordingly. Thank you.
I agree that prones shouldn't be easy to do, it's a very incapacitating move, the ONLY prone TRS have for instance is a daily, and just for WK. I agree in PVP they should be left for more special moves.
TR HAVE PERMA STEALTH WHICH IS STILL NOT GETTING NERFED ,HR HAVE ROOTS(annoying as hell) , WHILE GWF DETERMINATION , PRONES IS NERFED , what say u about that.
Hey all, I wanted to drop by and share another set of changes we are making as well as some of the rationale behind the prone changes.
First things first, here are the incoming changes.
Guardian Fighter: Frontline Surge: Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from .75).
Great Weapon Fighter: Frontline Surge: Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from .75).
Great Weapon Fighter: Takedown: Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from 1.2).
Second, I want to talk about Prone and why we are shifting some of the prones away from PVP, but not all of them. Prone has a special interaction with Deflect in that while someone has you Prone you cannot deflect any incoming attacks. While we do like this interaction in PVE, changing the behavior from PVP to PVE felt awkward and confusing for users so we decided to convert these to stuns instead and still allow the control to exist without the ability to shut off enemy player defensive stats. Secondly because of animation limitations prones cannot be any shorter than .66 seconds. Given this we wanted to allow CC resist to work correctly in more cases, and therefore we wanted prones to be generally saved either for more powerful spells (like several dailies) or for powers that require substantially more skill to land (like Shard of the Eternal Avalanche). These changes should improve the feel of CC Resistance and make it behave more uniformly in all situations.
Thank you all for your continued feedback.
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Thanks for this change Crush. This was very much needed.
I still have a problem with such a weak unstoppable - even with Sprint.
PROBLEM: Determination gain is based on damage received. Even though Sprint gives DR and CC Immunity, when a GWF uses Sprint, they are building LESS determination.
So the PROBLEM is the extra DR HINDERS determination gain even though it will "seem" like it balances it out, it really doesnt since it just means we still have to take the same amount of damage to use unstoppable. Also sprint has MUCH less "uptime" than unstoppable in the total view of a fight, and sprint is needed as a gap closer, not a defensive tool.
Its just really wack....
SOLUTION: Make Unstoppable 15-30% DR, drop the DR on sprint either to the 10-15% range OR remove it altogether and keep the CC immunity frames - the cc immunity basically makes it "on par" with other classes "dodges" however Sprint STILL doesnt mitigate 100% of damage.
TR HAVE PERMA STEALTH WHICH IS STILL NOT GETTING NERFED ,HR HAVE ROOTS(annoying as hell) , WHILE GWF DETERMINATION , PRONES IS NERFED , what say u about that.
I say this is a GWF thread, not a TR thread, and that your grammatical use of capital letters is elementary at best... :cool:
I say this is a GWF thread, not a TR thread, and that your grammatical use of capital letters is elementary at best... :cool:
This is not just the GWF thread... THIS IS SPARTA !!
With that out of my system, I predict that after the new changes hit Preview a bunch of CWs will come to the forum and complain that the GWF can sprint to them and stun/kill them while they are absolutely unable to do anything and that is without even going unstoppable..
I agree that Unstoppable is much, much weaker but geared Destroyers are by no means squishy on Preview and with CC immunity while Sprinting we will be quite a force. Now, if sprint can also break out of CC..
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
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iaccidentally47Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
Disclaimer: The following is based on a few assumptions (based on information available at the time of posting)
Disclaimer: The following is mostly focused on PvE, though some PvP issues will be addressed. The majority of what is discussed does not effect pvp anyways, so this is mostly a non-issue.
Assumption #1: The content of mod 4 will require tanks (and/or healers) or at very least make having them very beneficial to the group.
Assumption #2: When looking at the changes being made, the devs seem to be trying to make sentinel GWF a viable tank.
So, the best place to start here is to define what a "tank" is. The term gets thrown around quite a lot, but what does it actually mean? What is a tank, what is their role in the party, what do they bring to the table, and what are their strengths and weaknesses?
What is a tank?
Simply put, the tank is the one who takes the majority of the damage in an encounter. They should be the first one into the fight, and in the thick of the battle the whole time. The tank leads the pull, the dps and healers follow.
What is the role of a tank?
The role of a tank can be divided into 3 main parts: aggro, control, and the ability to take a lot of damage.
- Aggro: any tank should be able to get and hold aggro reliably.This can be done through all kinds of mechanics, but the end result is the same. The enemies should be attacking the tank. A good tank should be able to get aggro off of other party members, and hold it once they have it.
- Control: the tank needs to be able to handle aggro once they have it. This can be done through all sorts of methods, but once they have aggro, a tank needs to be able to do something with it. A common utility here is the ability to position the target so that it is advantageous to the group (i.e. facing a boss away from the other party members or kiting adds, or in the case of trash, grouping mobs together so they are easier for the dps to kill). What should NOT be happening is that the tank is running around like a chicken with their head cut off because they got all the aggro but have no way to deal with it.
- Damage: A tank needs to be able to take hits. This does not always mean they need to have a ton of damage reduction or hit points, but they need SOME way to soak up the damage they will be taking. Some mechanic is needed to allow the tank to take hits.
What does a tank bring to the party?
The tank should make everyone else's job easier. The tank should dictate the terms of battle. DPS should benefit from a tank because they have to dodge less and take less damage. Healers should benefit from a tank by the tank being the one taking most of the damage, so their healing job is easier, as they can focus on healing the tank. A tank should also bring some additional utility to the table, which could be some dps, buffs, debuffs, or even some heals.
Strengths and Weaknesses
Strengths:
- Can take lots of damage
- Can get and hold aggro
- Can control targets
- Mobile (A tank needs to be able to get to the targets. This is especially important because tanks are almost always melee fighters, and as such need to be right in the enemies face to do their job. Reliable gap closing ability is a must)
Weaknesses:
- lower damage output than dps
- usually require healing of some sort due to high damage intake
- requires a high degree of skill to play well.
Ok, so now that we have looked at what a tank is, how does a sentinel GWF look based on this?
Aggro: pretty much all of sent's aggro generation (other than damage output, which is sub-par) relies on feats, which then require certain skills to be used. The recent changes do seem to be working on improving this, but overall sent does not have amazing aggro generation.
Control: GWF has some fairly good control abilities, in the form of prones, slows, interrupts, or movement (come and get it) So, sent looks ok on this front.
Ability to take damage: generally GWF has high HP and good armor/mitigation, and with the sent capstone, this is even better. Unstoppable greatly increases this, as well as providing temp HP and some healing (if feated). Above average here, but could use some improvement, especially when it comes to soloing, as life steal is not very effective due to low damage. A possible solution here could be to buff restoring strike.
Mobility: Iron Vanguard has a huge advantage here, as threatening rush is great for mobility. Sprint is very limited, and punishing charge/mighty leap are usually not worth slotting when we are limited to only 3 encounters. However, even IV is below average with the cooldown and limited charges on rush. One of the biggest problems with tanking as a GWF right now is that by the time we get to the mobs, the ranged dps have already grabbed everything, and without a hard taunt or lots of burst damage, it is very difficult to get back. I find it actually easier to get aggro back with burst damage as a destroyer than any sent threat generating feat.
So, now for the feedback on the upcoming changes:
1) A big problem is what will happen when you have both GF and GWF in a party. Anyone who has ever tried a 2 GF run will know exactly what I am talking about here. However, GWF is at a severe disadvantage here. First, they have no way to "turn off" their aggro generation, since it is pretty much all based on feats. A GF can simply unslot enhanced mark and will have much less aggro gen. This also becomes a problem for dps GWFs because they will also be taking aggro from tanks with the changes to how mark works. So, are we supposed to choose to either take a GF or a GWF in a party? There seems to be a very big synergy issue here.
2) Another big problem is that with the increased aggro gen, we don't really seem to be getting any better tools to deal with it. Great, we can get all the mobs attention, now what?
Hopefully I will be able to expand on this and post more feedback after the next patch on preview.
Thanks for listening,
-Misa
Miss Anthropy - 15.7k CW | Miss Andrist - 19k GWF | DC (14.5k) | TR (14.5k) | HR(14k) | GF(15.5k)
Lowbies: DC (level 31) | HR (level 16)
You can almost always find me in the legit channel. Happy Adventuring!
GWF guide: click me
I would say lower the DR on run to 5% + 5% on deflect (this is based on "GWFs are running, is logic to think they are a bit harder to target" idea) , make a feat to give both stats to +10% or, as i said on my previous post, give up to +50% to deflect while running with Nimble Runner Inquisitor feat.
Yeah I just dont understand the full logic behind their changes...
They nerf unstoppable so GWFs are not as tanky(which honestly isnt needed as Unstoppable wasnt what was wrong with GWFs), then buff sprint because they toned unstoppable back too much, then STILL had to bring back unstoppable some, but the end result is that its really going to hurt GWFs in pvp.
Why this doesnt make sense to me is this:
GWFs can sprint for like 4 seconds but can only cover the distance of maybe 1-2 "teleports" of a CW, or a FEW short dodges from an HR.
The issue with that is both those classes can use their dodges 5-6+ times in a row. HRs have some OP feat that ive SEEN an HR dodge 16 times in a row without stopping, and ive SEEN CWs able to do 6-8 in a row as well (I dont know how or why but I also dont care to know how or why).
because a good CW/HR will just wati for you to stop sprinting, then CC you. They will wait to attack till your out and on LIVE this would be an issue because unstoppable is so beefy, but now its honestly just a joke. Even 10% more DR isnt really all that much (from 40 to 50% DR).
I mean HRs can get in the high 40s in DR, have 40% deflect AND have almost infinite dodges.
Also the other thing I dont get is now Sprint HAS to be used defensively instead of offensively. While your IN unstoppable you used to have to sprint towards targets to even catch them, so if you wasted it all getting TO the target, GG, or if you waste it all IN unstoppable TO get to the target GG because your SO vulnerable outside it.
If your gonna do this change and make GWFs rely more on Sprint, something needs to be done either about the "duration" or sprint or their recharge rate. With taking away "control" from the GWF, now taking away their offensive gap closers (sprint/threat rush) it wont matter if they cant be CCd because they can just be nuked down or dodged long enough TO CC/nuke you.
Even on LIVE ive met some pretty good CWs who just CC/prone you outside unstoppable and will literally get your HP below 50% in one combo, then they blink around while you chase them IN unstoppable USING sprint USING Threat Rush Spam and USING prones.
The only thing that allowed us to even have a chance to catch and land attacks on CWs was Roar or Frontline Surge. Followed by takedown then IBS. With roar gone, and FLS and Takedown doing MUCH less "stun" its going to be VERY difficult to catch a CW to land attacks on them.
Intimidation: Not So Fast and Daring Shout now deal 10/20/30/40/50% of your Power as damage (up from 2/4/6/8/10%) and while targets are Intimidated you deal 10/20/30/40/50% more threat to them (up from 5/10/15/20/25%).
Still no one mentioning,Isn't it Come And Get it and Daring Shout?Or it's Not So Fast as intended.
It is Come and Get It. I typed the wrong name in Ill make sure the post and patch notes are corrected when they go up.
Make takedown a prone at least. I understand the issues, but having at least one wouldn't be OP. Also... its called takedown? How is it takedown if nothing goes down?
I say this is a GWF thread, not a TR thread, and that your grammatical use of capital letters is elementary at best... :cool:
says the guy who didnt read previous post from TR and cant read past single line, capital letters is shown to make it seem important which u clearly cant seem to understand
Make takedown a prone at least. I understand the issues, but having at least one wouldn't be OP. Also... its called takedown? How is it takedown if nothing goes down?
Prone is being eliminated to permit a target to still deflect your attacks while it's affected by the CC. (PvP motivated)
If you think about it, it kind of makes sense, given that they're also nerfing the damage by 30%. Now that you're not hitting them as hard, they aren't being dealt enough force to be knocked down. :P
I really understand these changes on GWF class but, the 2 main points are, as you and me said at mid of this thread, is due 18/19k GWF are teamed vs 8-10k players, and, instead of making a REAL balancing system on PvP (programing it from scratch), they just went to the "easy way": nerf classes. That is the reason (but is not the only one, i know few more reasons) i know devs dont listen to us, GWF players, when we are totally guiding them into how to balance our own class based on our own experience.
Yes this really hit the nail on the head.
Having 2 HIGH elo players with 16k+ GS getting matched with LOW GS players for "even teams" is NOT the way this should be done, all that ends up happeneing is the 16k GS players stomp all over the new players and then get frustrated when THEIR new players cant do anything because they dont understand to fight on nodes....
Its a MASSIVE lose-lose system where High elo players lose from bad teammates and low elo players have no fun going 1-30 in a match - even if they win...
Oh and did I mention all those guys who go 1-30 come here to whine about "WTF GWF KILLED ME" "NERF TAKEDOWN WTF" when they have no idea WHY they were hit so hard...
Having 2 HIGH elo players with 16k+ GS getting matched with LOW GS players for "even teams" is NOT the way this should be done, all that ends up happeneing is the 16k GS players stomp all over the new players and then get frustrated when THEIR new players cant do anything because they dont understand to fight on nodes....
Its a MASSIVE lose-lose system where High elo players lose from bad teammates and low elo players have no fun going 1-30 in a match - even if they win...
Oh and did I mention all those guys who go 1-30 come here to whine about "WTF GWF KILLED ME" "NERF TAKEDOWN WTF" when they have no idea WHY they were hit so hard...
Maybe they are going to start turning new areas into open PvP zones? With more factional siding and aligning with different organizations representing different dragons. I'm guessing Tyranny of Dragons, means there will be more than one dragon vying for power/control.
So at first I thought Not So Fast was getting the damage buff and threat increase and was thinking that Sentinels will actually be able to tank. But now hearing it was actually Come And Get It getting the buff, this is not helpful. Come And Get It has a poor effect and does almost no damage, it could do 3 times damage and still be useless in PVE. Sentinels are still not going to be able to hold any agro.
Have been doing some testing with Destroyer and Sentinal builds in Icewind dale on Preview.
While I agree with the "intent" of the changes to make Destroyer a Damage Dealer and Sentinel a tank. It appears to me you made the gap too big as both are not viable in PvE content.
My Trials with Destroyer GWF was to get used to using sprint to keep out of attacks, I'm used to this I do it well. You need this skill in end game dungeons. I still find that the destroyer is far to vulnerable for what I like about the GWF. So I stacked some Defense gear. I have full several sets of gear. And even putting on full Black Ice purified set the class still seems far to squishy. It is not fun to solo with I can only imagine how bad it would be in Kessels retreat if even stacking Defense gear is no good.
So I tried Sentinel in Full Damage gear. And sentinel really has not changed all that much since mod one. No damage and lots of defense only viable for PvE. I doubt the taunts will make Sentinel viable for PvE either. As a GWF you are expected to do damage.
So I am completely unable to make a GWF that is balanced in defense and damage. Can be on the frontlines and not fear AoE attacks but no main tank either. I kinda hope Instigator could do that but for it to be effective it would need +20% Damage and Defense on its Unstoppbale to compare with the Destoyers +40% damage or the sentinels +40% great damage reduction.
The concept is just silly and this is how you are destroying the GWF class yet again.
On other changes. I agree with prone becoming stun in PvP. It means tenacity means something against those attacks. I agree with Sprint actually have a defensive mechanic. It does not make sprinting better to me. To me it means if you are bad at sprinting you still get something for trying. With this change sprint is still the worst shift power of any class and as a GWF thats fine by me as long as Unstoppable is still viable. It seems to me you are trying to make the game more streamlined between the classes like GF using stamina now instead of guard meter. I agree with that kind of thinking. But also remember tab powers Need to be very special and effective for each class. Unstoppable has never been an offensive move. Increased attack speed on At wills and lowered damage was never the point of unstoppable. I see it like this a CW's tab gives him 30% more encounter powers so why cant unstoppable give the GWF up to 30% more defense.
The damage reduction on Takedown is a sign of your poor game design. You do not make a feat in one GWF tree that makes takedown do more damage than nerf the moves base damage to compensate. Just reduce the bonus damage in the destroyer tree so all types of GWF's can enjoy this move.
SO NOW I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH
Cryptic has a very very very poor reputation for ignoring player comments and just doing there own thing. This reputation hurts you more than just making these drastic drastic changes to Game balance on a whim. Most players here have stated a 15-30% unstoppbel is more viable and will make all GWF players happy. I agree with this change as well and you NEED to listen to your player base on this one. If it seems the change was not enough later on so be it more changes can be made. But right here right Now this is what players are saying so you have to adhere to it.
I simply cannot go back to the completely unwanted GWF of mod 1. I just can't go through that again.
Have been doing some testing with Destroyer and Sentinal builds in Icewind dale on Preview.
While I agree with the "intent" of the changes to make Destroyer a Damage Dealer and Sentinel a tank. It appears to me you made the gap too big as both are not viable in PvE content.
My Trials with Destroyer GWF was to get used to using sprint to keep out of attacks, I'm used to this I do it well. You need this skill in end game dungeons. I still find that the destroyer is far to vulnerable for what I like about the GWF. So I stacked some Defense gear. I have full several sets of gear. And even putting on full Black Ice purified set the class still seems far to squishy. It is not fun to solo with I can only imagine how bad it would be in Kessels retreat if even stacking Defense gear is no good.
So I tried Sentinel in Full Damage gear. And sentinel really has not changed all that much since mod one. No damage and lots of defense only viable for PvE. I doubt the taunts will make Sentinel viable for PvE either. As a GWF you are expected to do damage.
So I am completely unable to make a GWF that is balanced in defense and damage. Can be on the frontlines and not fear AoE attacks but no main tank either. I kinda hope Instigator could do that but for it to be effective it would need +20% Damage and Defense on its Unstoppbale to compare with the Destoyers +40% damage or the sentinels +40% great damage reduction.
The concept is just silly and this is how you are destroying the GWF class yet again.
On other changes. I agree with prone becoming stun in PvP. It means tenacity means something against those attacks. I agree with Sprint actually have a defensive mechanic. It does not make sprinting better to me. To me it means if you are bad at sprinting you still get something for trying. With this change sprint is still the worst shift power of any class and as a GWF thats fine by me as long as Unstoppable is still viable. It seems to me you are trying to make the game more streamlined between the classes like GF using stamina now instead of guard meter. I agree with that kind of thinking. But also remember tab powers Need to be very special and effective for each class. Unstoppable has never been an offensive move. Increased attack speed on At wills and lowered damage was never the point of unstoppable. I see it like this a CW's tab gives him 30% more encounter powers so why cant unstoppable give the GWF up to 30% more defense.
The damage reduction on Takedown is a sign of your poor game design. You do not make a feat in one GWF tree that makes takedown do more damage than nerf the moves base damage to compensate. Just reduce the bonus damage in the destroyer tree so all types of GWF's can enjoy this move.
SO NOW I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH
Cryptic has a very very very poor reputation for ignoring player comments and just doing there own thing. This reputation hurts you more than just making these drastic drastic changes to Game balance on a whim. Most players here have stated a 15-30% unstoppbel is more viable and will make all GWF players happy. I agree with this change as well and you NEED to listen to your player base on this one. If it seems the change was not enough later on so be it more changes can be made. But right here right Now this is what players are saying so you have to adhere to it.
I simply cannot go back to the completely unwanted GWF of mod 1. I just can't go through that again.
Well said, bravo
Zach
Essence of Aggression
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mircalla83Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 36
edited July 2014
While I'm not an 'overgeared 18k GS whale', and I'm mainly a HR player (PvE), I had the joy of leveling a GWF (unlocking the Artifact only).
The current (Live Server) Unstoppable allows withstanding enemy assault while literally 'parking' inside the AoE. I think no class should be able to 'park' inside an AoE zone.
But right now, Sprint is very unresponsible on live, and I wouldn't trust my life for it.
That said, I did hear that it is possible for a GWF that doesn't stack Radiants in their Def Slots or 'only' use purely offensive weighted rings and so on to get 40-50% base DR. With a 30% (at full charge) Unstoppable, a Destroyer would (at sacrifice of damage) be able to get 80% DR. If the Sentinel Feat would give a 3x modifier (so it ends with a 90% Bonus at maximum) they would be able to sacrifice some base Defense for offense.
Personally, I am currently riding along in mainly offense minded gear, and I have roughly 30% base DR, but I am also only wearing a Slayer of Xvim loadout and a pile of Level 50 greens, none of which gives much Defense.
While I'm not an 'overgeared 18k GS whale', and I'm mainly a HR player (PvE), I had the joy of leveling a GWF (unlocking the Artifact only).
The current (Live Server) Unstoppable allows withstanding enemy assault while literally 'parking' inside the AoE. I think no class should be able to 'park' inside an AoE zone.
But right now, Sprint is very unresponsible on live, and I wouldn't trust my life for it.
That said, I did hear that it is possible for a GWF that doesn't stack Radiants in their Def Slots or 'only' use purely offensive weighted rings and so on to get 40-50% base DR. With a 30% (at full charge) Unstoppable, a Destroyer would (at sacrifice of damage) be able to get 80% DR. If the Sentinel Feat would give a 3x modifier (so it ends with a 90% Bonus at maximum) they would be able to sacrifice some base Defense for offense.
Personally, I am currently riding along in mainly offense minded gear, and I have roughly 30% base DR, but I am also only wearing a Slayer of Xvim loadout and a pile of Level 50 greens, none of which gives much Defense.
GWF are melee class. Melee class need to be some kind of offtank. Rouges can pop ITC and stay in red too. We are saving your (range) a*** in every dungeon keeping aggro on themselves. Warrior need sprint for running to fight not from fight. Maybe they should remove range from you? Or add some cd on your atwill powers because archers shouldnt have endless arrow-spam? Seems logic? Yeah.
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mircalla83Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 36
GWF are melee class. Melee class need to be some kind of offtank. Rouges can pop ITC and stay in red too. We are saving your (range) a*** in every dungeon keeping aggro on themselves. Warrior need sprint for running to fight not from fight. Maybe they should remove range from you? Or add some cd on your atwill powers because archers shouldnt have endless arrow-spam? Seems logic? Yeah.
Hello Mr. Hater,
I hereby must inform you that Hunter Rangers are not a pure Ranged Class. Hint: Their Tab ability, gained at Level 10, allows the Hunter Ranger to switch into Melee Mode.
We also have a kind of Cooldown on some At-Wills. Split Shot, when using its full potential, needs a chargeup, which leaves the HR open to attack. Aimed Shot requires a casting time. Unless you use Barkshield or hide in Ambush/Forest Ghost, getting hit with even 1 point of damage cancels the Aimed Shot out. Also, Threatening Rush is technically not the GWFs At-Will, it is just an At-Will proliferated over from the GF, together with the whole 'created for GF' Paragon path. Who keeps it in the unlimited version.
I would totally be in favour for Destroyers to keep the Liveserver Unstoppable - if they give up a reasonable amount of damage.
Hello Mr. Hater,
I hereby must inform you that Hunter Rangers are not a pure Ranged Class. Hint: Their Tab ability, gained at Level 10, allows the Hunter Ranger to switch into Melee Mode.
We also have a kind of Cooldown on some At-Wills. Split Shot, when using its full potential, needs a chargeup, which leaves the HR open to attack. Aimed Shot requires a casting time. Unless you use Barkshield or hide in Ambush/Forest Ghost, getting hit with even 1 point of damage cancels the Aimed Shot out. Also, Threatening Rush is technically not the GWFs At-Will, it is just an At-Will proliferated over from the GF, together with the whole 'created for GF' Paragon path. Who keeps it in the unlimited version.
I would totally be in favour for Destroyers to keep the Liveserver Unstoppable - if they give up a reasonable amount of damage.
Except the GWF is a PURE melee class. No GWF can just pull back out of the big red circle and switch to their ranged attack set to continue to attack while staying out of the big red circle. What does Threatening Rush do? Puts them into melee range, right back into the big red circle. Why? Because as a PURE melee class, that's where they're intended to be.
Interrupting your ranged charge-up at-wills should not even be an issue since you're in the ranged stance and should be outside the big red circle. If you're getting interrupted because you're trying to charge up ranged attacks while still standing in the big red circle, that's wholey on you.
The solution is to bring a DC buddy who can keep the GWF up and going. Or spec into sentinel to be a better tank. If you don't bring a DC buddy, having to sprint in and out of red zones more to survive should be a logical consequence.
Yes, GWFs are a melee class. No, they shouldn't expect to be self-sufficient in every way, being super-tanky self-healing mega-damage dealers.
The fact that GWF players expect to be able to just tank anything while delivering mega damage and healing up through life steal and regen just tends to illustrate why they're making the changes they are.
The fact that you have grouped all possible specs and gear loadouts into one omnipotent GWF spec that offends your sensibilities, makes it very hard to have a discussion.
To be clear, Sprinting is not bad because we're lazy and don't want to move. It's not acceptable because it's not designed to be used like the shift/dodge abilities of the other classes, doesn't work as well as the shift/dodge abilities of other classes, and thus can't be relied on like the shift/dodge abilities of other classes.
Turn it into the reliable blink/slide/roll that other classes get, and Destroyer spec'd GWFs will happily rename themselves "Giant Dagger Rogues".
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iaccidentally47Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
Well, I might as well just post this (again) so that when it gets moved out it will be there for those reading the other posts there.
1) Iron Vanguard is a paragon available to ALL fighters, as is Swordmaster. GWF and GF are both fighters. Please stop saying "GWF stole IV", because it simply isn't true. Both have equal access to both paths.
2) GWF is supposed to be an offtank frontline melee class. The difference in paths is that they enhance different aspects of the class, not change the class itself. Destroyer enhances damage dealing and sentinel enhances tankiness. (instigator needs to be looked into as it really doesnt do much useful at all). To compare this to another class, an archery spec HR can still do fine in melee, they have just chosen to enhance their archery. Likewise, combat HR does fine in archery. The same (should) apply to every class. Your spec does not change the core of the class, it enhances a certain aspect of it. Please stop telling me destroyers need to "go sent" or "run around". Being a destoryer doesnt mean a GWF is suddenly not wearing full body armor and a tough fighter, it simply means they chose to enhance their damage dealing capability.
Miss Anthropy - 15.7k CW | Miss Andrist - 19k GWF | DC (14.5k) | TR (14.5k) | HR(14k) | GF(15.5k)
Lowbies: DC (level 31) | HR (level 16)
You can almost always find me in the legit channel. Happy Adventuring!
GWF guide: click me
Well, I might as well just post this (again) so that when it gets moved out it will be there for those reading the other posts there.
1) Iron Vanguard is a paragon available to ALL fighters, as is Swordmaster. GWF and GF are both fighters. Please stop saying "GWF stole IV", because it simply isn't true. Both have equal access to both paths.
2) GWF is supposed to be an offtank frontline melee class. The difference in paths is that they enhance different aspects of the class, not change the class itself. Destroyer enhances damage dealing and sentinel enhances tankiness. (instigator needs to be looked into as it really doesnt do much useful at all). To compare this to another class, an archery spec HR can still do fine in melee, they have just chosen to enhance their archery. Likewise, combat HR does fine in archery. The same (should) apply to every class. Your spec does not change the core of the class, it enhances a certain aspect of it. Please stop telling me destroyers need to "go sent" or "run around". Being a destoryer doesnt mean a GWF is suddenly not wearing full body armor and a tough fighter, it simply means they chose to enhance their damage dealing capability.
Well said. I know how weak GWFs used to be, the changes over time got us up to par. Also alot of gripe comes from GF to GWF comparisons resulting in the GWF looking OP. I beg to differ , its the GF class that is lacking and now is its turn to be brough up to par. Remains to be seen if the dev team will do a good job of it.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
have u ever seen a well balanced PVP team against well balanced PVP team, there is nothing OP there , i have seen 1 CW controlling 1 node , similarly TR, DC and HR also and but when GWF does it u all whine , the only class which can criticize GWF is GF cause they r the only class closer to us cause they r also melee and there class is not well balanced. any other class saying GWF is OP , then go learn to play ur class , its true CW is squishy but it has more than enough dodge capablities, killing a perma TR is pain in the *** , they go against a full balanced team alone and no1 seems to mind it , killing a DC many times others have to gank on him caause they keep on healing and dodging , and HR with there broken path can heal there full health while sitting on the node in midst of whole party and still survive , GF is only 1 which is not able to handle all of this for long , so u telling GWF is OP is baseless assumption.
the only problem with u was roar passing through dodges and CC immunity , which being repaired would have done it but no full GWF class got nerfed .
and taking point on unstoppable every class has tab powers which are beneficial to them , and GWF tab is full defensive thing and does not contribute to offensive , now due to unbalance PVP teams GWF many powers base damages are being reduced .
now it will again like when neverwinter came out of beta and GWF was a useless class.
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reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
Also something I noticed last night is, GWF's have no counters to perma stealth rogues now. None at all.
They're making Roar absolutely useless.
All our prones are gone.
Our unstoppable is weak.
We no longer will have a counter to perma stealth rogues in pvp at all now. They can just ITC out of our "stuns" now.
and GWF tab is full defensive thing and does not contribute to offensive
This one phrase will make people completely tune you out. GWF Unstoppable also has a powerful offensive component. Your At Will attacks are sped up considerably, only doing slightly less damage per hit. This increases your overall DPS when you are using Unstoppable, making it both a defensive and offensive TAB ability. If you are a Destroyer Build, it increases your DPS even more, making it one of the most powerful offensive abilities in the game.
This one phrase will make people completely tune you out. GWF Unstoppable also has a powerful offensive component. Your At Will attacks are sped up considerably, only doing slightly less damage per hit. This increases your overall DPS when you are using Unstoppable, making it both a defensive and offensive TAB ability. If you are a Destroyer Build, it increases your DPS even more, making it one of the most powerful offensive abilities in the game.
overall damage remain constant. it does not do anything to overall damage, the only reason u feel like it cause u dont avoide red are u stand and on it do damage. the reason it has speed is cause unstoppable is for a limited period of time and in that time u can stand in enemy aoe and attack.
dont give vague answer if u havent calculated. dummy is there in trade of blades and u can calculate it out.
Everyone is making pretty decent points. Your claims are all valid to a degree. However, everyone is missing a major point and it is this... It doesn't matter what the GWFs are or were, it is about the direction they are going. This is relevant not only to the GWF class but to the entire game.
GWFs are currently an extremely tanky class with above average dps in a single specialization path (Destroyer). Many players (I'd say a majority of the players) have chosen this spec for optimal performance and ease of playability. This is a problem. It pigeon holes the entire class into that one spec and creates the, Destroyer or Bust, community mentality. I made a post before that the changes are forcing players to play differently and open up new builds and path options. That is the direction the developers are taking the class.
The new GWF will have 3 options.
Destroyer- Sacrifice significant defense to do bonus DPS
Sentinel- Sacrifice significant DPS to gain more Defense/ DR.
Instigator- (Surprise) Sacrifice some personal DPS and Defense for team buffs.
Do you like that? Clearly not, but it is the direction they are going with. So far they are set to put these changes through. It will NOT kill the class. It will change the way you need to play. I will also say it again, Cryptic is pushing for more party oriented play and synergy. This is also a good way to provide a gold sink for the player base. You will need to use more potions for survival alone or learn to run things in a group.
improve instigator and here is list of gwf skills which could use some buff ups:
mighty leap should stun
eanforced threat should do some base damage 1-2k at least and have 15 target caps
roar should get 10 targets caps
not so fast 10 targets
spinning strike needs some 30% higher damage to be worth of animation +casting time
slam should be able to crtic
deep gash needs to be improved atm is overkilled at least 2x beter damage or some utily like slow could work to
student of the sword should be improved 10% or be able to work for team members to
Comments
Very much appreciated. As a destroyer, I could probably take this nerfed version of Unstoppable, assuming the Sprint changes stay in place (although will test this further, once changes are implemented to ensure that this is still viable- lower GS and sub-60 GWFs will still find it hard). Will Sentinel's capstone feat damage resistcance multiplier to Unstoppable be adjusted accordingly? (I hope I am not missing something)
Also, I have read the clarification/reasons for changing prones to stuns in PvP. I am interpreting this as a programming challenge (to introduce deflect while prone or reducing the animation times of prones). So my question here is, will this workaround (prone to stun) be temporary, until you figure a more appropriate workaround. I can relate to the frustration of PvP GWFs that the stun may be of insufficient duration (even with the proposed increased durations) to be useful (for follow-up with IBS, etc.), when tenacity takes effect. Kindly suggest.
And once again, quite glad that you are absorbing all this feedback and adjusting the changes accordingly. Thank you.
Thanks for this change Crush. This was very much needed.
I still have a problem with such a weak unstoppable - even with Sprint.
PROBLEM: Determination gain is based on damage received. Even though Sprint gives DR and CC Immunity, when a GWF uses Sprint, they are building LESS determination.
So the PROBLEM is the extra DR HINDERS determination gain even though it will "seem" like it balances it out, it really doesnt since it just means we still have to take the same amount of damage to use unstoppable. Also sprint has MUCH less "uptime" than unstoppable in the total view of a fight, and sprint is needed as a gap closer, not a defensive tool.
Its just really wack....
SOLUTION: Make Unstoppable 15-30% DR, drop the DR on sprint either to the 10-15% range OR remove it altogether and keep the CC immunity frames - the cc immunity basically makes it "on par" with other classes "dodges" however Sprint STILL doesnt mitigate 100% of damage.
This is not just the GWF thread... THIS IS SPARTA !!
With that out of my system, I predict that after the new changes hit Preview a bunch of CWs will come to the forum and complain that the GWF can sprint to them and stun/kill them while they are absolutely unable to do anything and that is without even going unstoppable..
I agree that Unstoppable is much, much weaker but geared Destroyers are by no means squishy on Preview and with CC immunity while Sprinting we will be quite a force. Now, if sprint can also break out of CC..
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Disclaimer: The following is mostly focused on PvE, though some PvP issues will be addressed. The majority of what is discussed does not effect pvp anyways, so this is mostly a non-issue.
Assumption #1: The content of mod 4 will require tanks (and/or healers) or at very least make having them very beneficial to the group.
Assumption #2: When looking at the changes being made, the devs seem to be trying to make sentinel GWF a viable tank.
So, the best place to start here is to define what a "tank" is. The term gets thrown around quite a lot, but what does it actually mean? What is a tank, what is their role in the party, what do they bring to the table, and what are their strengths and weaknesses?
What is a tank?
Simply put, the tank is the one who takes the majority of the damage in an encounter. They should be the first one into the fight, and in the thick of the battle the whole time. The tank leads the pull, the dps and healers follow.
What is the role of a tank?
The role of a tank can be divided into 3 main parts: aggro, control, and the ability to take a lot of damage.
- Aggro: any tank should be able to get and hold aggro reliably.This can be done through all kinds of mechanics, but the end result is the same. The enemies should be attacking the tank. A good tank should be able to get aggro off of other party members, and hold it once they have it.
- Control: the tank needs to be able to handle aggro once they have it. This can be done through all sorts of methods, but once they have aggro, a tank needs to be able to do something with it. A common utility here is the ability to position the target so that it is advantageous to the group (i.e. facing a boss away from the other party members or kiting adds, or in the case of trash, grouping mobs together so they are easier for the dps to kill). What should NOT be happening is that the tank is running around like a chicken with their head cut off because they got all the aggro but have no way to deal with it.
- Damage: A tank needs to be able to take hits. This does not always mean they need to have a ton of damage reduction or hit points, but they need SOME way to soak up the damage they will be taking. Some mechanic is needed to allow the tank to take hits.
What does a tank bring to the party?
The tank should make everyone else's job easier. The tank should dictate the terms of battle. DPS should benefit from a tank because they have to dodge less and take less damage. Healers should benefit from a tank by the tank being the one taking most of the damage, so their healing job is easier, as they can focus on healing the tank. A tank should also bring some additional utility to the table, which could be some dps, buffs, debuffs, or even some heals.
Strengths and Weaknesses
Strengths:
- Can take lots of damage
- Can get and hold aggro
- Can control targets
- Mobile (A tank needs to be able to get to the targets. This is especially important because tanks are almost always melee fighters, and as such need to be right in the enemies face to do their job. Reliable gap closing ability is a must)
Weaknesses:
- lower damage output than dps
- usually require healing of some sort due to high damage intake
- requires a high degree of skill to play well.
Ok, so now that we have looked at what a tank is, how does a sentinel GWF look based on this?
Aggro: pretty much all of sent's aggro generation (other than damage output, which is sub-par) relies on feats, which then require certain skills to be used. The recent changes do seem to be working on improving this, but overall sent does not have amazing aggro generation.
Control: GWF has some fairly good control abilities, in the form of prones, slows, interrupts, or movement (come and get it) So, sent looks ok on this front.
Ability to take damage: generally GWF has high HP and good armor/mitigation, and with the sent capstone, this is even better. Unstoppable greatly increases this, as well as providing temp HP and some healing (if feated). Above average here, but could use some improvement, especially when it comes to soloing, as life steal is not very effective due to low damage. A possible solution here could be to buff restoring strike.
Mobility: Iron Vanguard has a huge advantage here, as threatening rush is great for mobility. Sprint is very limited, and punishing charge/mighty leap are usually not worth slotting when we are limited to only 3 encounters. However, even IV is below average with the cooldown and limited charges on rush. One of the biggest problems with tanking as a GWF right now is that by the time we get to the mobs, the ranged dps have already grabbed everything, and without a hard taunt or lots of burst damage, it is very difficult to get back. I find it actually easier to get aggro back with burst damage as a destroyer than any sent threat generating feat.
So, now for the feedback on the upcoming changes:
1) A big problem is what will happen when you have both GF and GWF in a party. Anyone who has ever tried a 2 GF run will know exactly what I am talking about here. However, GWF is at a severe disadvantage here. First, they have no way to "turn off" their aggro generation, since it is pretty much all based on feats. A GF can simply unslot enhanced mark and will have much less aggro gen. This also becomes a problem for dps GWFs because they will also be taking aggro from tanks with the changes to how mark works. So, are we supposed to choose to either take a GF or a GWF in a party? There seems to be a very big synergy issue here.
2) Another big problem is that with the increased aggro gen, we don't really seem to be getting any better tools to deal with it. Great, we can get all the mobs attention, now what?
Hopefully I will be able to expand on this and post more feedback after the next patch on preview.
Thanks for listening,
-Misa
Lowbies: DC (level 31) | HR (level 16)
You can almost always find me in the legit channel. Happy Adventuring!
GWF guide: click me
Yeah I just dont understand the full logic behind their changes...
They nerf unstoppable so GWFs are not as tanky(which honestly isnt needed as Unstoppable wasnt what was wrong with GWFs), then buff sprint because they toned unstoppable back too much, then STILL had to bring back unstoppable some, but the end result is that its really going to hurt GWFs in pvp.
Why this doesnt make sense to me is this:
GWFs can sprint for like 4 seconds but can only cover the distance of maybe 1-2 "teleports" of a CW, or a FEW short dodges from an HR.
The issue with that is both those classes can use their dodges 5-6+ times in a row. HRs have some OP feat that ive SEEN an HR dodge 16 times in a row without stopping, and ive SEEN CWs able to do 6-8 in a row as well (I dont know how or why but I also dont care to know how or why).
because a good CW/HR will just wati for you to stop sprinting, then CC you. They will wait to attack till your out and on LIVE this would be an issue because unstoppable is so beefy, but now its honestly just a joke. Even 10% more DR isnt really all that much (from 40 to 50% DR).
I mean HRs can get in the high 40s in DR, have 40% deflect AND have almost infinite dodges.
Also the other thing I dont get is now Sprint HAS to be used defensively instead of offensively. While your IN unstoppable you used to have to sprint towards targets to even catch them, so if you wasted it all getting TO the target, GG, or if you waste it all IN unstoppable TO get to the target GG because your SO vulnerable outside it.
If your gonna do this change and make GWFs rely more on Sprint, something needs to be done either about the "duration" or sprint or their recharge rate. With taking away "control" from the GWF, now taking away their offensive gap closers (sprint/threat rush) it wont matter if they cant be CCd because they can just be nuked down or dodged long enough TO CC/nuke you.
Even on LIVE ive met some pretty good CWs who just CC/prone you outside unstoppable and will literally get your HP below 50% in one combo, then they blink around while you chase them IN unstoppable USING sprint USING Threat Rush Spam and USING prones.
The only thing that allowed us to even have a chance to catch and land attacks on CWs was Roar or Frontline Surge. Followed by takedown then IBS. With roar gone, and FLS and Takedown doing MUCH less "stun" its going to be VERY difficult to catch a CW to land attacks on them.
It is Come and Get It. I typed the wrong name in
Prone is being eliminated to permit a target to still deflect your attacks while it's affected by the CC. (PvP motivated)
If you think about it, it kind of makes sense, given that they're also nerfing the damage by 30%. Now that you're not hitting them as hard, they aren't being dealt enough force to be knocked down. :P
Yes this really hit the nail on the head.
Having 2 HIGH elo players with 16k+ GS getting matched with LOW GS players for "even teams" is NOT the way this should be done, all that ends up happeneing is the 16k GS players stomp all over the new players and then get frustrated when THEIR new players cant do anything because they dont understand to fight on nodes....
Its a MASSIVE lose-lose system where High elo players lose from bad teammates and low elo players have no fun going 1-30 in a match - even if they win...
Oh and did I mention all those guys who go 1-30 come here to whine about "WTF GWF KILLED ME" "NERF TAKEDOWN WTF" when they have no idea WHY they were hit so hard...
Maybe they are going to start turning new areas into open PvP zones? With more factional siding and aligning with different organizations representing different dragons. I'm guessing Tyranny of Dragons, means there will be more than one dragon vying for power/control.
While I agree with the "intent" of the changes to make Destroyer a Damage Dealer and Sentinel a tank. It appears to me you made the gap too big as both are not viable in PvE content.
My Trials with Destroyer GWF was to get used to using sprint to keep out of attacks, I'm used to this I do it well. You need this skill in end game dungeons. I still find that the destroyer is far to vulnerable for what I like about the GWF. So I stacked some Defense gear. I have full several sets of gear. And even putting on full Black Ice purified set the class still seems far to squishy. It is not fun to solo with I can only imagine how bad it would be in Kessels retreat if even stacking Defense gear is no good.
So I tried Sentinel in Full Damage gear. And sentinel really has not changed all that much since mod one. No damage and lots of defense only viable for PvE. I doubt the taunts will make Sentinel viable for PvE either. As a GWF you are expected to do damage.
So I am completely unable to make a GWF that is balanced in defense and damage. Can be on the frontlines and not fear AoE attacks but no main tank either. I kinda hope Instigator could do that but for it to be effective it would need +20% Damage and Defense on its Unstoppbale to compare with the Destoyers +40% damage or the sentinels +40% great damage reduction.
The concept is just silly and this is how you are destroying the GWF class yet again.
On other changes. I agree with prone becoming stun in PvP. It means tenacity means something against those attacks. I agree with Sprint actually have a defensive mechanic. It does not make sprinting better to me. To me it means if you are bad at sprinting you still get something for trying. With this change sprint is still the worst shift power of any class and as a GWF thats fine by me as long as Unstoppable is still viable. It seems to me you are trying to make the game more streamlined between the classes like GF using stamina now instead of guard meter. I agree with that kind of thinking. But also remember tab powers Need to be very special and effective for each class. Unstoppable has never been an offensive move. Increased attack speed on At wills and lowered damage was never the point of unstoppable. I see it like this a CW's tab gives him 30% more encounter powers so why cant unstoppable give the GWF up to 30% more defense.
The damage reduction on Takedown is a sign of your poor game design. You do not make a feat in one GWF tree that makes takedown do more damage than nerf the moves base damage to compensate. Just reduce the bonus damage in the destroyer tree so all types of GWF's can enjoy this move.
SO NOW I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH
Cryptic has a very very very poor reputation for ignoring player comments and just doing there own thing. This reputation hurts you more than just making these drastic drastic changes to Game balance on a whim. Most players here have stated a 15-30% unstoppbel is more viable and will make all GWF players happy. I agree with this change as well and you NEED to listen to your player base on this one. If it seems the change was not enough later on so be it more changes can be made. But right here right Now this is what players are saying so you have to adhere to it.
I simply cannot go back to the completely unwanted GWF of mod 1. I just can't go through that again.
Well said, bravo
Essence of Aggression
The current (Live Server) Unstoppable allows withstanding enemy assault while literally 'parking' inside the AoE. I think no class should be able to 'park' inside an AoE zone.
But right now, Sprint is very unresponsible on live, and I wouldn't trust my life for it.
That said, I did hear that it is possible for a GWF that doesn't stack Radiants in their Def Slots or 'only' use purely offensive weighted rings and so on to get 40-50% base DR. With a 30% (at full charge) Unstoppable, a Destroyer would (at sacrifice of damage) be able to get 80% DR. If the Sentinel Feat would give a 3x modifier (so it ends with a 90% Bonus at maximum) they would be able to sacrifice some base Defense for offense.
Personally, I am currently riding along in mainly offense minded gear, and I have roughly 30% base DR, but I am also only wearing a Slayer of Xvim loadout and a pile of Level 50 greens, none of which gives much Defense.
GWF are melee class. Melee class need to be some kind of offtank. Rouges can pop ITC and stay in red too. We are saving your (range) a*** in every dungeon keeping aggro on themselves. Warrior need sprint for running to fight not from fight. Maybe they should remove range from you? Or add some cd on your atwill powers because archers shouldnt have endless arrow-spam? Seems logic? Yeah.
Hello Mr. Hater,
I hereby must inform you that Hunter Rangers are not a pure Ranged Class. Hint: Their Tab ability, gained at Level 10, allows the Hunter Ranger to switch into Melee Mode.
We also have a kind of Cooldown on some At-Wills. Split Shot, when using its full potential, needs a chargeup, which leaves the HR open to attack. Aimed Shot requires a casting time. Unless you use Barkshield or hide in Ambush/Forest Ghost, getting hit with even 1 point of damage cancels the Aimed Shot out. Also, Threatening Rush is technically not the GWFs At-Will, it is just an At-Will proliferated over from the GF, together with the whole 'created for GF' Paragon path. Who keeps it in the unlimited version.
I would totally be in favour for Destroyers to keep the Liveserver Unstoppable - if they give up a reasonable amount of damage.
Except the GWF is a PURE melee class. No GWF can just pull back out of the big red circle and switch to their ranged attack set to continue to attack while staying out of the big red circle. What does Threatening Rush do? Puts them into melee range, right back into the big red circle. Why? Because as a PURE melee class, that's where they're intended to be.
Interrupting your ranged charge-up at-wills should not even be an issue since you're in the ranged stance and should be outside the big red circle. If you're getting interrupted because you're trying to charge up ranged attacks while still standing in the big red circle, that's wholey on you.
The fact that you have grouped all possible specs and gear loadouts into one omnipotent GWF spec that offends your sensibilities, makes it very hard to have a discussion.
To be clear, Sprinting is not bad because we're lazy and don't want to move. It's not acceptable because it's not designed to be used like the shift/dodge abilities of the other classes, doesn't work as well as the shift/dodge abilities of other classes, and thus can't be relied on like the shift/dodge abilities of other classes.
Turn it into the reliable blink/slide/roll that other classes get, and Destroyer spec'd GWFs will happily rename themselves "Giant Dagger Rogues".
1) Iron Vanguard is a paragon available to ALL fighters, as is Swordmaster. GWF and GF are both fighters. Please stop saying "GWF stole IV", because it simply isn't true. Both have equal access to both paths.
2) GWF is supposed to be an offtank frontline melee class. The difference in paths is that they enhance different aspects of the class, not change the class itself. Destroyer enhances damage dealing and sentinel enhances tankiness. (instigator needs to be looked into as it really doesnt do much useful at all). To compare this to another class, an archery spec HR can still do fine in melee, they have just chosen to enhance their archery. Likewise, combat HR does fine in archery. The same (should) apply to every class. Your spec does not change the core of the class, it enhances a certain aspect of it. Please stop telling me destroyers need to "go sent" or "run around". Being a destoryer doesnt mean a GWF is suddenly not wearing full body armor and a tough fighter, it simply means they chose to enhance their damage dealing capability.
Lowbies: DC (level 31) | HR (level 16)
You can almost always find me in the legit channel. Happy Adventuring!
GWF guide: click me
Well said. I know how weak GWFs used to be, the changes over time got us up to par. Also alot of gripe comes from GF to GWF comparisons resulting in the GWF looking OP. I beg to differ , its the GF class that is lacking and now is its turn to be brough up to par. Remains to be seen if the dev team will do a good job of it.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
the only problem with u was roar passing through dodges and CC immunity , which being repaired would have done it but no full GWF class got nerfed .
and taking point on unstoppable every class has tab powers which are beneficial to them , and GWF tab is full defensive thing and does not contribute to offensive , now due to unbalance PVP teams GWF many powers base damages are being reduced .
now it will again like when neverwinter came out of beta and GWF was a useless class.
They're making Roar absolutely useless.
All our prones are gone.
Our unstoppable is weak.
We no longer will have a counter to perma stealth rogues in pvp at all now. They can just ITC out of our "stuns" now.
This one phrase will make people completely tune you out. GWF Unstoppable also has a powerful offensive component. Your At Will attacks are sped up considerably, only doing slightly less damage per hit. This increases your overall DPS when you are using Unstoppable, making it both a defensive and offensive TAB ability. If you are a Destroyer Build, it increases your DPS even more, making it one of the most powerful offensive abilities in the game.
dont give vague answer if u havent calculated. dummy is there in trade of blades and u can calculate it out.
GWFs are currently an extremely tanky class with above average dps in a single specialization path (Destroyer). Many players (I'd say a majority of the players) have chosen this spec for optimal performance and ease of playability. This is a problem. It pigeon holes the entire class into that one spec and creates the, Destroyer or Bust, community mentality. I made a post before that the changes are forcing players to play differently and open up new builds and path options. That is the direction the developers are taking the class.
The new GWF will have 3 options.
Destroyer- Sacrifice significant defense to do bonus DPS
Sentinel- Sacrifice significant DPS to gain more Defense/ DR.
Instigator- (Surprise) Sacrifice some personal DPS and Defense for team buffs.
Do you like that? Clearly not, but it is the direction they are going with. So far they are set to put these changes through. It will NOT kill the class. It will change the way you need to play. I will also say it again, Cryptic is pushing for more party oriented play and synergy. This is also a good way to provide a gold sink for the player base. You will need to use more potions for survival alone or learn to run things in a group.
mighty leap should stun
eanforced threat should do some base damage 1-2k at least and have 15 target caps
roar should get 10 targets caps
not so fast 10 targets
spinning strike needs some 30% higher damage to be worth of animation +casting time
slam should be able to crtic
deep gash needs to be improved atm is overkilled at least 2x beter damage or some utily like slow could work to
student of the sword should be improved 10% or be able to work for team members to