Hey guys, I wanted to drop by and talk a bit about Guardian Fighters and what is going on with them in the coming months. We have heard your feedback, and have been looking hard at where and how they fit into combat and group structure. We decided that we did not have time to implement the changes we wanted to make to improve Guardian Fighter utility, group strength, and tanking tools and still get adequate testing in. Therefore we wanted to step back and take a longer look at Guardians and make some bigger changes to them on a longer time frame where we could get more testing in.
We wanted to address a couple of really big issues that we feel are impeding the Guardian's ability to tank in groups. While we have not finalized the specifics about the changes we are making, I wanted to share some of the major issues we are hitting with the changes we are working on.
Threat Generation and Aggro Control - We know how frustrating it is to try and maintain threat with how much damage other classes can dish out, so we are making some key changes to allow the Guardian to both capitalize on that and generate substantially more threat in his own kit as well.
Interaction between Blocking and healers - We are looking at several options to adjust Block that removes some of the binary "I am blocking and therefore don't really benefit from healing" gameplay that exists as well as the risk of Block being broken so rapidly under sustained fire.
Group utility benefits - We wanted to provide some buffs that allow the Guardian to empower his teammates a bit as well as long as he is fulfilling his role correctly and maintaining threat on targets, and we have a couple ideas we are trying to allow the guardian to provide some pretty powerful increases to ally output without sacrificing the core of his role.
I don't currently have a timeline for when you guys will be able to see these things, but I wanted you guys to know we are taking your feedback and we are working on changes to improve Guardian gameplay and tanking in general.
Thank you again for the continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
All I ever wanted! And I thank you for your words and wish you all luck and hope you will find a solution which suits your whole picture of the game. Hopefully, we players can contribute too in one or another way.
Well I have played a guardian fighter for over a year on and off. I am offensively spec'd focusing on power and having a good spread of defensive stats. I find myself lacking threat in dungeons most of the time if I don't use the enhanced mark feature when using enforced threat. I can be considered a vampire tank due to the change in module 2 with the endless consumption boon to complement 1600 lifesteal with my ioun stone giving 500 of that. This allows me with villains menace(buffed with aoe and dmg feat) to go from 1k hp to full if endless consumption procs. This gives me great survivability in most dungeons except dread vault so much stun in the first 2 boss fights.
I like being in the offensive path for the guardian fighter and hope it continues to be as such. But I face some issues:
One being threat even if I throw out a lot of dmg it doesn't keep the adds on me unless using enhanced mark(seems to be intended)
Two block is something I feel is so fragile both in pve and pvp. So many times in dungeons I go to block and 2 seconds later its gone, with pvp not as fast but it goes quickly against dots and certain encounters. Not to mention that it cannot block certain encounters when logically it should be able to or lower the effectiveness of said encounter.
Three the distinction between a GWF and GF I still dont understand why a gwf has certain features to add deflection at such a large amount yet the gf has only a feat and putting as much into dex to barely equate the gwfs feature(bravery) plus the feat which is only t1 gives 13% deflect without going into a particular stat.
These are just some of my concerns with how the class is. I have more I could say but I don't want to repeat what has been said in this thread already.
Hey guys, I wanted to drop by and talk a bit about Guardian Fighters and what is going on with them in the coming months. We have heard your feedback, and have been looking hard at where and how they fit into combat and group structure. We decided that we did not have time to implement the changes we wanted to make to improve Guardian Fighter utility, group strength, and tanking tools and still get adequate testing in. Therefore we wanted to step back and take a longer look at Guardians and make some bigger changes to them on a longer time frame where we could get more testing in.
We wanted to address a couple of really big issues that we feel are impeding the Guardian's ability to tank in groups. While we have not finalized the specifics about the changes we are making, I wanted to share some of the major issues we are hitting with the changes we are working on.
Threat Generation and Aggro Control - We know how frustrating it is to try and maintain threat with how much damage other classes can dish out, so we are making some key changes to allow the Guardian to both capitalize on that and generate substantially more threat in his own kit as well.
Interaction between Blocking and healers - We are looking at several options to adjust Block that removes some of the binary "I am blocking and therefore don't really benefit from healing" gameplay that exists as well as the risk of Block being broken so rapidly under sustained fire.
Group utility benefits - We wanted to provide some buffs that allow the Guardian to empower his teammates a bit as well as long as he is fulfilling his role correctly and maintaining threat on targets, and we have a couple ideas we are trying to allow the guardian to provide some pretty powerful increases to ally output without sacrificing the core of his role.
I don't currently have a timeline for when you guys will be able to see these things, but I wanted you guys to know we are taking your feedback and we are working on changes to improve Guardian gameplay and tanking in general.
Thank you again for the continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
HEY, IN LIGHT OF THE DEVELOPER'S RESPONSE TO THIS ISSUE, I'VE CREATED A NEW THREAD WHERE YOU CAN POST SUGGESTIONS TO HELP KEEP THINGS CLEAN AND ORGANIZED. THE SOONER THE DEVELOPERS CAN GO THROUGH OUR SUGGESTIONS WITHOUT HAVING TO READ PAGES OF PAGES OF HATE AND DEVELOPER FLAMING, THE SOONER THEY CAN GET TO WORK SAVING THIS CLASS!!
It's called "The Unofficial Guardian Fighter Suggestion Thread", and it needs love, pronto!
- Threat Generation is not really an issue you have feats and other passive that help generate more threat. so i don't see any reason why this is a major problem for us GF. (we have other host of problem to be address about) if they really need to focus on this then increase our overall Main hand damage, its miles away from the other main hand.
Well Threat Generation buffs will help the GFs that do alot of damage pull even more aggro. Allowing for more tanky and even pure tank builds. Without the worry of losing aggro because you are being out DPSd and having all that tankiness go to waste. I am all for Treat generation buffs. This buff will allow GFs to TRULY be the center of attention and even maintain aggro as well. To the point a CW doing 10 million more damage than everybody else may not even be able to pull aggro off the GF.
Which I think is fantastic if they do it right. It will make GFs very viable for dungeon runs. People will bring them because there will be little worry about the squishies pulling aggro.
Arc, proud officer of Novus Ordo
New to the game? Check out my build guide to give you an idea on how to set up your characters!
well we can chance tab ability, fix knight´s challenger put more max hit point and whit stats get critical chance or other **** like life steal or recovery.. maybe can change the def formule . the block mechanis need rework
1- tide of iron- make him aoe that is better for recovery guard meter (3 target max)
2-Villain´s Menace- put one buff of % DMG resist
3-lunging strike - dmg in cone whit no split
4-Enforced Treath- put CC like singularity or aoe stun
5-Shield talent -can get more % of guard and be nice a def buff for x numbers of enemy
6-Grifon Wrath- make him one encounter whit 3 hit combo and 1 CD no one encounter whit 3 charge and 3 cd or down CD time
7-figther´s recovery-chance the skill for recovery % of missing heal or % of max hit point
8-terrinfying Impact- Make it more faster and more range the **** on map cant block him (like a freaky litle rock)
9-Knee breaker- can do it hit more range like bull change (lol flying kick) or buff it whit if target is prone do 25 % more dmg
10-Guarded assult- up the % reflec dmg to 20 or 15 % (really suck whit 3%) or booster whit one feat
11-Crushing surge- buff it whit the 3 hit do x2 dmg and you recovery 25 % of the dmg do it
12-ferocius reation- bosster whit more % HP recovery and lower CD or rework total
13- Into the frey- more % temporaly hit point can use on guard
14-Supremacy of steel- CC inmunity and Def bosster
15-iron warrior- Dmg resit buff and get % temporaly hit point of max hit point (no missing heal), put can use on guard or put CC like singularity and you can block all income dmg for x seg but you cannot move while is active
16-endyring warrior- change recovery 3 % of max hit point for each enemy kills by party
17-toughness (feat)- can do more max hit point 15 or 20 %
18-shielded resurgence (Feat)- up them 8-10% of hit point every 20-25 sec
19-distracting shield (Feat)- make it 10% less dmg
20-grit (feat)- 5-10 % every 30 sec
21-armor of bahamut (feat)- change it reduce time of guard recovery
22-iron guard (feat)- get X % damage resit and def efective
23-Martial Mastery (Feat)- can be better buffed whit more % HP or DEF to allies
24- GEt betters set bonus pve/pvp
P.S pliss DEv the change of feat must be only to GF no to GWF and make him more op
1-Make block effective so that its not melted by dots and give a minimum amount of time(4 to 5 secs) with a full block meter to take a few hits without breaking instantly.
2-remove the speed debuff or lower it on the guardian fighter we don't have a dash/dodge ability even with 3 rank 8 dark enchantments with the coming downtime in module 3(delay after combat to mount) it will be very taxing to keep up with others without having to slot into the fray in any pvp.
3-a rework of how much ac a guardian fighter can have since plate is a stronger type of armor compared to mail it should easily give more ac than a gwf with the higher ac feat(sent t1) without having to use the same feat on the gf.
My second suggestion is due to the fact that block is only able to be used in dire situations not for every other hit, so having some extra mobility tied to strength would be welcomed to lessen the move speed debuff. As a heavy tank you would focus more on constitution and dexterity keeping the speed debuff. I say this as an offensive spec'd gf.
The focus marked enemy of Gf should be unable to use any CC on him.or at least Gf should have 50% more CC resist from the spesific Focus marked target.
Tide of Iron:Hits in a cone.Duration of the buff increased.
Shield talent:10/20/30% increase instead of 5/10/15
Lunging strike:No split reduced damage .
Villan's menace:Add 20-40% increased DR ,increased range and damage.
Knee breaker :Improved slow or immobilize completely for short duration
Guarded Assault:3/6/9% reflect instead of 1/2/3
Crushing Surge:faster and less clunky animation
Combat Superiority: 20% damage instead of 10%.
Anvil of Doom:Ignores all resistances(as Shocking execution for TRs)
Flourish: Double it's damage.
Steel Blitz:Increase it's proc range and it's damage should be on par with the cleave damage of the attacking char.Or even better:Steel should hit with the same damage that at that time GF hits.Be att will or encounter(not daily)
WMS:Faster and more damage.
Into the Fray:increase HP portion gain.
Steel Defence:Fix it and make it work in pvp(cause now it don't it works only for 3 not for 5.And SE kills you even while Steel is on )
Crescendo:make it so now cannot be interupted as it should be.Damage increase
Feats
Distracting Shield:3/6/9 instead of 1/2/3
Potent Challenge:Generate 10/20/30% more threat instead of 5/10/15.
Weapon mastery:3/6/9% from 1/2/3
Take Measure:2/4/6/8/10 from 1/2/3/4/5
Plate Agility: 2/4/6/8/10 more deflect chance from 1/2/3/4/5 now
Crushing Pin:3/6/9/12/15 from 2/4/6/8/10.
0
cprnMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited May 2014
GF are useless in dungeons, they can't do much about it, the basic mechanics of the game are wrong because you can easily get away with just CC and high DPS to kill everything, so why get a tank when u can get another dps and clear stuff faster.
1)
I think a big issue is that our main stat is hit incredibly hard by diminishing returns.
We get tons of defense, but they add less and less.
I would take any set weapon, but the on for GFs, as my defens is already so high that the difference is hardly noticeable.
Meaning, I suggest that our "base defense" should be increased or the sets a bit reworked.
2)
Block - I hate the comparison with the GWFs, but they are our main "tank"-competitor.
And they excel us by far.
They can take all hits while "in blocking mode" (meaning unstoppable) and deal at the same time much damage, swallowing damage from a 360° arc. Ignoring the direction. Then they can sprint out of harms way.
Compare that to the GF:
* shield nibbled down in a few hits
* only a limited arc in front of you that is protected
* direction issues on ranged splat attacks (fireballs etc.)
* half a sitting duck all the time, even more so when the shield is broken due to low speed
3)
Damage
Apply the 4 pcs bonus from Grand Regent set to Stalwart Bulwark, and apply the old bonus from Stalwart Bulwark to Grand regent, making it a worthwhile set.
( When struck in combat you gain 5% of your maximum hit points as Power. This effect stacks up to 5 times. Lasts 8 seconds. )
This might also make lifesteal a useable stat for the GF. It is for all other classes.
Lets see what happens to GF in M3!
Well Threat Generation buffs will help the GFs that do alot of damage pull even more aggro. Allowing for more tanky and even pure tank builds. Without the worry of losing aggro because you are being out DPSd and having all that tankiness go to waste. I am all for Treat generation buffs. This buff will allow GFs to TRULY be the center of attention and even maintain aggro as well. To the point a CW doing 10 million more damage than everybody else may not even be able to pull aggro off the GF.
Which I think is fantastic if they do it right. It will make GFs very viable for dungeon runs. People will bring them because there will be little worry about the squishies pulling aggro.
This can be true in a sense but we have to remember that threat is the least of our problems, if a CW/GWF/HR can kill the mobs for just a few seconds.
As some of you know, I play a DC as my main, and I certainly feel GF's pain at having their usefulness slowly eroded as the game has moved to AoE farming. So, here is my take on what I'd like (as a healer) to see changed for Guardian Fighters (although I also have played one to 60, so I have some experience with their mechanics).
First off, from a healing the group perspective, guard is great for not having to worry about the GFs health as much, yet, as was quoted, most GFs keep the block up well being full health, not necessarily because they aren't willing to lower it and take some damage before putting it back up, but because there is very little incentive to do so. If a GF specs down the tanking tree, her greatest threat generation and damage output is from behind her shield, so lowering it makes no sense.
As a healer I'd love to see a percentage of what healing I cast on a GF to be added as "block points" to his guard meter. It doesn't have to be much; 10% would be lovely. Just enough so that my heals are not totally wasted.
Likewise, well temporary hit points aid a GF herself, it'd be nice if temp hit points also affected the guard meter, such as adding an "absorb" to the meter similar to the skill that reduces the rate at which the guard meter is depleted. This would be very nice from my perspective, as if I know the GF is going to take a _huge_ hit, I could temp hp buff and perhaps prevent the meter from breaking. I also like this idea as I feel that GFs and DCs are innately tied together synergisticly, as we are opposites of a spectrum that should complement each other (the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts).
Lastly, as a DC what I would _like_ a GF to be able to do for _me_, is to be able to actually hard single target taunt off myself or group squishies. From playing a GF my biggest complaint about the tab ability is that I can't use it well I have my shield up, and lowering the shield to cast it on a target that is attacking a squishy is, at times, unviable with the number of enemies attacking me. I'd love for whatever the GF tab ability turns into, if it could have some sort of "active" rather than passive taunt that could, furthermore, be used to assist a group mate _well_ turtling.
___________
The only other suggestion I could add for consideration, is to change the last tier ability on each of the guardian fighter's paragon lines (the final one point ability) to, in someway, fundamentally change the effect of holding the shift-guard and it's interaction with the GFs tab ability.
I see this as an almost essential change, as there are many styles of playing a GF, almost all of which would not want the same type of guard mechanic.
Because the GF is a defender (tank is a misnomer, many GWFs/HRs/Clerics can tank well but only GFs and a handful of specific GWF builds are good defenders) one class innate addition which can significantly improve the class' value in group fights is an increased ally Combat Advantage damage innate. That way the GF actually needs to put effort into trying to keep mobs focused on him (as per his defender role, and while he performs his secondary leader/controller/striker roles) and is rewarded for doing so by the innate.
Perhaps this should be a secondary effect of GF aggro marks? The aggro marks don't work in PvP anyway (or they shouldn't) so this would be PvE specific.
Edit: @post above
I am also a DC and GFs already have the tools to keep mobs off us or nullify most of their damage (feats, marks, Knight's Challenge, Knight's Valor, KV + Steel Defense, etc). In MOD3 all GFs will have most of these powers, so they'll have no excuse for not using them in specific fights. Even in PvP a good GF is invaluable because their large hitboxes can easily hide our relatively lean frames - a GF with the common sense to "block" effective player targetting of a DC or CW is invaluable.
GFs are defenders and are actually very similar to DCs in that all good GFs are defenders/leaders first and controllers/strikers second. Given the current meta, if good GFs had heals these people would be paladins. Remove their attack/aggro powers on top of that and function-wise they'd be almost exactly like DCs.
I'd say our true opposites/complements are CWs. We buff/heal, they debuff/control.
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GF whether you like it or not is still a Warrior, a Fighter, and he need 3 different path.
1) Dps - Conqueror
- new set of weapon and shield with more weapon dmg and offensive set bonus (power or crit)
- new set of armor with offensive stat, improvment Timeless of Hero maybe good idea
- in this path feat's which add more dmg to basic skills like Lunging Strike, Frontline Surge, Anvill of Doom, Griffon Wrath
- increase speed and dmg Cleav
- improvement AoE skills dmg
This two ways I don't play so I don't have much idea about this but:
2) Tank - Protector
- more aggro/threat
- some skills improve a survive (like Iron Warrior)
- some skills like Impossible to Catch (TR skill)
3) Buffer - Tacticia
- get any buff/debuff from skills, not only from Into the Frey - add buff/debuff only when player choose and 'buy' right feats
We have a lot of different players. For example we have mmo players who wants a tank and we have a D&D players who wants GF like dps with shield. In my opinon Conqueror must be on the same lvl of dps like GWF Sentinel and this third (not destroyer) but worse from destroyer. In the other side GWF sentinel should be better tank like GF Conqueror and Tactician but worse from Protector.
The other day I was with my 19k GF (Conqueror, you guessed right) paying a visit to Karru.
At the first 2 Magma Elements that you have to take on I saw again how frail and useless a GF is.
Yes, I can take and keep their aggro.
But due to their thrown firebombs and ring of fire around them I basically have to start walking away soon, as my shield breaks fast.
The attacks from the thrown firebombs hits me as well, even with shield, if they hit the spot behind me.
What did the TR do? ITC - ignore damage
What did the GWF do? Unstoppable - ignore damage
I am sorry, but the GF is at the moment absolute useless in dungeons. I still like my GF, but it gets harder and harder for me to justify to myself why I slow down my team by bringing this GF. I am in a nice guild that accepts my alt-o-manacy, I have no problem getting my GF into a DD run.
As I have every other class available to me as well with 14k+ GS each, I think I can tell the difference how long my Karru runs take.
And if my GF (KC or Timeless set or not) is in the team, it takes longer than usually.
Ever tried to take down a single Erinyee in epic MD with a GF? I think we should be able to do that! not the fastest, but able!
Yes, I can take and keep their aggro.
But due to their thrown firebombs and ring of fire around them I basically have to start walking away soon, as my shield breaks fast.
The attacks from the thrown firebombs hits me as well, even with shield, if they hit the spot behind me.
What did the TR do? ITC - ignore damage
What did the GWF do? Unstoppable - ignore damage
Why? Because Constitution give to less HP. My GF have 25-26 Constitution, most of CW have something around 15 and I have 28-29k HP, CW something around 22k and this is stupid. If CW have 22k with 15, get me a something around 40k.
This will be first good change: More Influence Ability Point
Second, someone write about that but: Armor and Shield have to less AC. GWF without shield can have more AC that GF, wtf?! GWF and any other class can't have more AC that GF in T1 set. In T2 set and Protector feats GF should have far far more AC that other class. But in this place is second things: different set for Conqueror and Protector GF, AC (without AC from shield and feats) Conqueror and GWF can be familiar, but when Conqueror have his shield he must have more AC that other class, a little but more.
So second idea: redesign GF armor set get more AC to all shield and armor not equal in all Timeless can have less AC that Grand Regen but can get for example more power and crit.
No one hires a cleric for control. No one hires a CW for buffs/healing. No one hires an HR for aggro management.
No one hires a GF because we want to them to DPS. GFs should always, always be defenders first. You can take conqueror and make DPSing your secondary role, and you can even try to find some way to combine both being a defender/DPSing, but being a defender should never take a backseat to what is only an -OPTIONAL- path for your class. Because in the end ALL CWs are controllers, ALL DCs are leaders, ALL GWFs are strikers, etc. ALL GFs are defenders.
Trying to turn your GF into a primary striker when we already have a warrior designed for that (GWF) is laughable. And don't misunderstand the paragon feat paths, the only thing they were designed to do is give you bonuses/reward you for doing something. Conquerer rewards you for attacking, Protector rewards you for protecting your allies, Tactician rewards you for using the right combination of powers and setup. They were not designed to turn you into the equivalent of another class, and the best defender is definitely not the Protector just because he gets more rewards for standing in the middle of everything. The best defender is the GF with good threat generation/management and who still manages to do well at whatever else he prefers doing (attacking, taking damage for someone, using powers strategically).
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
"No one hires a GF because we want to them to DPS."
No one?Who you mean?Your self?So because the majority of current NW players are former MMO players that are addicted to MMO stereotypes "tank" ,should the Gfs care about your opinion?
There are DD players here,which,surprisingly for MMo players as you,think that GFs as in DD should be FIGHTERS first ,meaning strikers, and GUARDIANS meaning defenders/controllers.GF is a hybrid a jack of all trades.Problem is now is sub par to any of each role he is trying to do.He cannot defend well,he cannot dps well,he cannot controll well
.
And what is this thing every class coming here to tell us what GFs should be like.And what a coinsidence.Every class that comes here except GFs,come to the same conclusion:Don't buff GFs,no dps buff for Gfs.Speaks who??The bugged deap gash GWfs ,the perma TRs and the op CWs.Gosh.
"GFs should always, always be defenders first. You can take conqueror and make DPSing your secondary role, and you can even try to find some way to combine both being a defender/DPSing, but being a defender should never take a backseat to what is only an -OPTIONAL- path for your class. Because in the end ALL CWs are controllers, ALL DCs are leaders, ALL GWFs are strikers, etc. ALL GFs are defenders."
Sorry.You still play this game?Or maybe you are comfused with WoW?All cws are controllers?****!
So they are not the number 1 dps.
All GWFs are strikers?So why the 40k hp and the 40+50% dr?You are strikerss aren't you??Get of your magical Unstoppable then and your 40% dr then
"Trying to turn your GF into a primary striker when we already have a warrior designed for that (GWF) is laughable."
laughable is your opinion.Sorry.Conq path is a dps branch of GF like it or not.
"And don't misunderstand the paragon feat paths, the only thing they were designed to do is give you bonuses/reward you for doing something."
...??.......???.......something...????
"Conquerer rewards you for attacking,"
current it does not since our dps is too low.When the dps cong matches the dps of the DEFENSIVE build of GWF,IV then all conqs we will stop complaining.
Some fixes that I can see from playing a Guardian Fighter.
Damage - Increase single target damage. This increase will add to our threat and make it harder for others draw targets away. Multiple target damage should not be increased as that is the realm of the Great Weapon Fighter. The amount of time it takes us to kill a target just makes our job that much more difficult.
Armour - Increase the benefit of being well armoured. Guardian Fighters should have the best AC in the game, as we are wearing heavy plate and carrying a shield. I don't do my party much good if I am successful in attracting the attention of the monsters, but then get killed quickly from all of the simultaneous damage.
Support talents - When we ditch our damaging capabilities to take on more of a support role, the effects are either unnoticeable, too short, or are easily cancelled out by another players damage.
Two of the most aggravating things when playing a GF is having your marked target walk away from you while you are hitting them with your highest damage attacks, and taking forever to kill anything.
"No one hires a GF because we want to them to DPS."
No one?Who you mean?Your self?So because the majority of current NW players are former MMO players that are addicted to MMO stereotypes "tank" ,should the Gfs care about your opinion?
There are DD players here,which,surprisingly for MMo players as you,think that GFs as in DD should be FIGHTERS first ,meaning strikers, and GUARDIANS meaning defenders/controllers.GF is a hybrid a jack of all trades.Problem is now is sub par to any of each role he is trying to do.He cannot defend well,he cannot dps well,he cannot controll well
.
And what is this thing every class coming here to tell us what GFs should be like.And what a coinsidence.Every class that comes here except GFs,come to the same conclusion:Don't buff GFs,no dps buff for Gfs.Speaks who??The bugged deap gash GWfs ,the perma TRs and the op CWs.Gosh.
"GFs should always, always be defenders first. You can take conqueror and make DPSing your secondary role, and you can even try to find some way to combine both being a defender/DPSing, but being a defender should never take a backseat to what is only an -OPTIONAL- path for your class. Because in the end ALL CWs are controllers, ALL DCs are leaders, ALL GWFs are strikers, etc. ALL GFs are defenders."
Sorry.You still play this game?Or maybe you are comfused with WoW?All cws are controllers?****!
So they are not the number 1 dps.
All GWFs are strikers?So why the 40k hp and the 40+50% dr?You are strikerss aren't you??Get of your magical Unstoppable then and your 40% dr then
"Trying to turn your GF into a primary striker when we already have a warrior designed for that (GWF) is laughable."
laughable is your opinion.Sorry.Conq path is a dps branch of GF like it or not.
"And don't misunderstand the paragon feat paths, the only thing they were designed to do is give you bonuses/reward you for doing something."
...??.......???.......something...????
"Conquerer rewards you for attacking,"
current it does not since our dps is too low.When the dps cong matches the dps of the DEFENSIVE build of GWF,IV then all conqs we will stop complaining.
Try to keep the comments respectful. If you disagree, that's fine. Just don't let it turn into a high school brawl. Thanks.
I see both sides. On the one hand, you can argue that DPS is the primary job of all classes and what they bring to the table is secondary. On the other hand you can argue the opposite, that their roles should come first and DPS should come second.
I have to admit I'm leaning towards the former. This game is special to me largely because of the unique combat style. I could never go back to another MMO unless it has this level of fun, dynamic sort of combat where you have to position your character in real time. However, I DON'T think Guardian Fighters have to necessarily top the charts themselves.
I LOVE the idea of Guardian Fighters giving increased combat advantage to other players, and I also think this should be an innate ability brought on by the TAB ability and subject to enhancement with the Enhanced Mark class feature. It's just the sort of thing that would increase utility of the GF without making them overpowered, since they rely on other classes to finish the job. It would ironically make good synergy with the Control Wizard's Renegade path too. ^^
Not to mention increasing the importance of combat advantage would make game play more dynamic and challenging.
Hey guys, I wanted to drop by and talk a bit about Guardian Fighters and what is going on with them in the coming months. We have heard your feedback, and have been looking hard at where and how they fit into combat and group structure. We decided that we did not have time to implement the changes we wanted to make to improve Guardian Fighter utility, group strength, and tanking tools and still get adequate testing in. Therefore we wanted to step back and take a longer look at Guardians and make some bigger changes to them on a longer time frame where we could get more testing in.
We wanted to address a couple of really big issues that we feel are impeding the Guardian's ability to tank in groups. While we have not finalized the specifics about the changes we are making, I wanted to share some of the major issues we are hitting with the changes we are working on.
Threat Generation and Aggro Control - We know how frustrating it is to try and maintain threat with how much damage other classes can dish out, so we are making some key changes to allow the Guardian to both capitalize on that and generate substantially more threat in his own kit as well.
Interaction between Blocking and healers - We are looking at several options to adjust Block that removes some of the binary "I am blocking and therefore don't really benefit from healing" gameplay that exists as well as the risk of Block being broken so rapidly under sustained fire.
Group utility benefits - We wanted to provide some buffs that allow the Guardian to empower his teammates a bit as well as long as he is fulfilling his role correctly and maintaining threat on targets, and we have a couple ideas we are trying to allow the guardian to provide some pretty powerful increases to ally output without sacrificing the core of his role.
I don't currently have a timeline for when you guys will be able to see these things, but I wanted you guys to know we are taking your feedback and we are working on changes to improve Guardian gameplay and tanking in general.
Thank you again for the continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
I will talk about the content of the mod 2, because I haven't had time to test IWD (I have not heard about the changes they have done to the GWF, although I know there are some changes):
I think that the major problem is that the PvE content doesn't make this class desirable, when the 90% of the dungeons are about to control mass and mass of weak mobs, like PK for example, a GF brings nothing useful, it only would do the things slower and the only thing that we were contributing is make our party use less potions... But nobody cares about that... Since for the new artifacts we have to have 2 lvl 60 I've been playing a new GF and in the only 2 dungeons I felt that I actually help was in Idris and FH... those 2 dungeons give something that might need a Tank, some Hit Hard Mobs and CC Inmune Mobs, but however... they aren't so hard... a High GS team can do it perfectly withouth a GF... Also one time with my HR I played with a GF in MC, he kept all the fomorian warriors far from me, that helped a lot cause usually they are chasing me the 70% of the time... but why the GF was usefull in that case?, cause the Fomorian Warriors are CC Inmune, so CWs couldn't help with it... so, in my point of view... if you want to make GF usefull, you have to make a content in which they can be usefull and make it part of the majority of the dungeons, something to make ppl think that they might have a GF to be sure not to die, etc...
Also I would like to give another opinion about what might be wrong with the class...
1. If our shield is broken we are just as a GWF (maybe with a little more Def and Deflect) stay standing in front of the mobs, and if the mobs have CC skills, it get pretty annoying
2. Our HP not represent the amount of life that a Tank should have... but maybe it's part of the problem that there isn't a PvE content in where we would need a huge amount of life =P
3. We need at least a little better range and amplitude in our At-Wills attacks (also a little boost in our damage), this could help in generating Threat... however, even without considering the threat... I see that the GF At-Wills are pretty weak... Not so much in the early content, but at the end...
I think the game should be pointing to: -> GWF: Great DPS/decent Tankiness, and GF: Great Tankiness/decent DPS, I don't think the Class is broken or whatever, but it need a little love...
Well sorry if I extended... the truth is that I've played a little with my GF (is fairly new), but I played for quite a while other MMORPGs and my opinions are based on those experiences also, and if I I'm wrong with the grammar in some parts, I'm sorry, like many, English is not my mother tongue...
We have one fundamental problem:
In this game we have old MMO player who wants class like WoW or other MMO games, so tank is tank, etc. But the other side we have a D&D player who play in this game because this is NEVERWINTER and we don't have any different new game in this universe and for us (D&D player) GF i a Fighter and GWF is a Berserker (Unstoppable is Berserker's rampage).
In this situation i see only one solution, one compromise:
Player must have a possibility to build this class more flexible. Two ways are a minimum. One for DPS with shield - like in D&D, and Second for Defender - like in other MMO, no D&D games.
@tyrtallow you are very wrong. Why HR can't doing aggro management? Do you know Minsc? Cleric don't have a control? Do you know Cadderly Bonaduce? Who is a Fighter in Forgotten Realms? Bruenor Battlehammer, Belwar Dissengulp, Drizzt Do'Urden, Zaknafein, Thibbledorf Pwent. None of them was a defender. They all moved to fight on the front line, and do dmg. Example of GWF can be a Wulfgar or Fyodor. Pleas if you want talk about something, do some research first. Thanks and remember this is Forgotten Realms!!! This is or should be a D&D.
Try to keep the comments respectful. If you disagree, that's fine. Just don't let it turn into a high school brawl. Thanks.
I see both sides. On the one hand, you can argue that DPS is the primary job of all classes and what they bring to the table is secondary. On the other hand you can argue the opposite, that their roles should come first and DPS should come second.
I have to admit I'm leaning towards the former. This game is special to me largely because of the unique combat style. I could never go back to another MMO unless it has this level of fun, dynamic sort of combat where you have to position your character in real time. However, I DON'T think Guardian Fighters have to necessarily top the charts themselves.
I LOVE the idea of Guardian Fighters giving increased combat advantage to other players, and I also think this should be an innate ability brought on by the TAB ability and subject to enhancement with the Enhanced Mark class feature. It's just the sort of thing that would increase utility of the GF without making them overpowered, since they rely on other classes to finish the job. It would ironically make good synergy with the Control Wizard's Renegade path too. ^^
Not to mention increasing the importance of combat advantage would make game play more dynamic and challenging.
Not sure what type of GF's you have encountered, but i can assure you that mine does not rely on other's help "to finish the job". Especially in 1on1 situations, my GF does pretty well, due to roughly +160% burst dmg on all attacks, around +300% dmg if i crit.. along with 50+% ap gain. Hello 25k selfheals/ constant cc immunity/dailies ready in two received hits.
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I do not expect that people who use copy & paste forum - guide builds for their toons to run anything other than Bullrush, lunging strike, frontline surge, threatening rush, trample the fallen, ferocious reaction as conqueror GF's. I really don't but listen you should not take such GF's as the norm because there are literally tons of ways to build a GF effectively without following the herd of the sheep GF.
Not sure what type of GF's you have encountered, but i can assure you that mine does not rely on other's help "to finish the job". Especially in 1on1 situations, my GF does pretty well, due to roughly +160% burst dmg on all attacks, around +300% dmg if i crit.. along with 50+% ap gain. Hello 25k selfheals/ constant cc immunity/dailies ready in two received hits.
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I do not expect that people who use copy & paste forum - guide builds for their toons to run anything other than Bullrush, lunging strike, frontline surge, threatening rush, trample the fallen, ferocious reaction as conqueror GF's. I really don't but listen you should not take such GF's as the norm because there are literally tons of ways to build a GF effectively without following the herd of the sheep GF.
I'm talking about both PvE and PvP. You're talking about PvP specifically. I love using Griffon's Wrath to pick out stragglers and I can engage most HRs, CWs, DCs, and even GWFs around my gear score with little difficulty, with both of us at full health. I have an unusual set up where I put a point into each of the temporary hit point abilities, just one point, to increase the probability of gaining the damage buff (I feel the remaining points are wasted). This creates great synergy with the bloodcrystal raven. Griffon's wrath is harder to use than Frontline and almost no one uses it. That's why I love it. ^^.
I completely agree that people should take all builds with a grain of salt, and make modifications according to their own needs. I don't even advocate using conqueror specifically. But enough of me defending my honor. I think GFs are one of the deadliest PvP classes 1v1, aside from perma-stealth TRs and very high level GWFs.
That's actually part of the problem. It's in PVE where GFs are suffering the most, as a general consensus. And we have to come up with ways to help the GF in that field without making them too powerful in PvP. You basically illustrated my point.
So tell me. Since you think GFs are so powerful in PvP (a sentiment I agree with), what changes would you suggest to make them stronger in PvE without making yourself overpowered in PvP?
And of course, anyone is welcome to disagree with that sentiment, that GFs are fine in PvP. It's quite possible one has to be sacrificed for the other, which might be considered unjust compared to the other classes.
I'm talking about both PvE and PvP. You're talking about PvP specifically. I love using Griffon's Wrath to pick out stragglers and I can engage most HRs, CWs, DCs, and even GWFs around my gear score with little difficulty, with both of us at full health. I have an unusual set up where I put a point into each of the temporary hit point abilities, just one point, to increase the probability of gaining the damage buff (I feel the remaining points are wasted). This creates great synergy with the bloodcrystal raven. Griffon's wrath is harder to use than Frontline and almost no one uses it. That's why I love it. ^^.
I completely agree that people should take all builds with a grain of salt, and make modifications according to their own needs. I don't even advocate using conqueror specifically. But enough of me defending my honor. I think GFs are one of the deadliest PvP classes 1v1, aside from perma-stealth TRs and very high level GWFs.
That's actually part of the problem. It's in PVE where GFs are suffering the most, as a general consensus. And we have to come up with ways to help the GF in that field without making them too powerful in PvP. You basically illustrated my point.
So tell me. Since you think GFs are so powerful in PvP (a sentiment I agree with), what changes would you suggest to make them stronger in PvE without making yourself overpowered in PvP?
And of course, anyone is welcome to disagree with that sentiment, that GFs are fine in PvP. It's quite possible one has to be sacrificed for the other, which might be considered unjust compared to the other classes.
I really have no clue how the PvE aspect can get buffed without making us too overpowered in pvp. I barely did any PvE on my GF, though except the bag quests, so i can't rly tell what i am lacking or what could be reworked. I can only see it from a PvP perspective. What i did noticed though, is that it takes my GF who uses rank 7 gems and purples 2-3 times as long to finish the exact same content (Dread ring/Sharandar lairs), that my GWF who is without any enchantments in blue items can just rush through in no time.
I did not mean to attack you in my former post, btw. Cheers.
I really have no clue how the PvE aspect can get buffed without making us too overpowered in pvp. I barely did any PvE on my GF, though except the bag quests, so i can't rly tell what i am lacking or what could be reworked. I can only see it from a PvP perspective. What i did noticed though, is that it takes my GF who uses rank 7 gems and purples 2-3 times as long to finish the exact same content (Dread ring/Sharandar lairs), that my GWF who is without any enchantments in blue items can just rush through in no time.
I did not mean to attack you in my former post, btw. Cheers.
lol, nothing personal. So how do you think you could improve PvP for GFs? Because if in fact GFs aren't OP in PvP, that would give the developers much more leeway in making PvE improvements. My ideas have included boosting PvE armor, improving AoE skills that are not typically used/useful in PvP, etc. But if for instance GFs were considered underpowered in PvP as well, then in addition to minor changes like that the developers could give an across the board DPS increase, just as an example.
One thing I can say is that I haven't had the temp hp on crit feat since mod 2, along with the feat to increase dmg while having temp hp. But in the new corrupted gear we see a fair amount of bonus hp being added to it to make that feat path viable again. But even so I have been thinking to change my conq to tactician as I find power is less effective than it used to be with the current mod 3 power change from base dmg to percent. All of my encounters have lost dmg even at 9.5k power while getting another 100 dmg on my at wills. I don't see a solution to the gfs damage problems being solved unless a whole new weapon set is made for different tiers that makes the shield inherently weaker(stat wise, not ac) while buffing the sword to have a higher base dmg.
And again Plate should have a higher ac as I said on the first page of this thread.
It seems very simple to me , and Ill be back in a few months to see how things went. A GF does not have enough defense to overcome thier poor offense. One or the other needs to be raised.
Comments
All I ever wanted! And I thank you for your words and wish you all luck and hope you will find a solution which suits your whole picture of the game. Hopefully, we players can contribute too in one or another way.
I like being in the offensive path for the guardian fighter and hope it continues to be as such. But I face some issues:
One being threat even if I throw out a lot of dmg it doesn't keep the adds on me unless using enhanced mark(seems to be intended)
Two block is something I feel is so fragile both in pve and pvp. So many times in dungeons I go to block and 2 seconds later its gone, with pvp not as fast but it goes quickly against dots and certain encounters. Not to mention that it cannot block certain encounters when logically it should be able to or lower the effectiveness of said encounter.
Three the distinction between a GWF and GF I still dont understand why a gwf has certain features to add deflection at such a large amount yet the gf has only a feat and putting as much into dex to barely equate the gwfs feature(bravery) plus the feat which is only t1 gives 13% deflect without going into a particular stat.
These are just some of my concerns with how the class is. I have more I could say but I don't want to repeat what has been said in this thread already.
HEY, IN LIGHT OF THE DEVELOPER'S RESPONSE TO THIS ISSUE, I'VE CREATED A NEW THREAD WHERE YOU CAN POST SUGGESTIONS TO HELP KEEP THINGS CLEAN AND ORGANIZED. THE SOONER THE DEVELOPERS CAN GO THROUGH OUR SUGGESTIONS WITHOUT HAVING TO READ PAGES OF PAGES OF HATE AND DEVELOPER FLAMING, THE SOONER THEY CAN GET TO WORK SAVING THIS CLASS!!
It's called "The Unofficial Guardian Fighter Suggestion Thread", and it needs love, pronto!
Well Threat Generation buffs will help the GFs that do alot of damage pull even more aggro. Allowing for more tanky and even pure tank builds. Without the worry of losing aggro because you are being out DPSd and having all that tankiness go to waste. I am all for Treat generation buffs. This buff will allow GFs to TRULY be the center of attention and even maintain aggro as well. To the point a CW doing 10 million more damage than everybody else may not even be able to pull aggro off the GF.
Which I think is fantastic if they do it right. It will make GFs very viable for dungeon runs. People will bring them because there will be little worry about the squishies pulling aggro.
1- tide of iron- make him aoe that is better for recovery guard meter (3 target max)
2-Villain´s Menace- put one buff of % DMG resist
3-lunging strike - dmg in cone whit no split
4-Enforced Treath- put CC like singularity or aoe stun
5-Shield talent -can get more % of guard and be nice a def buff for x numbers of enemy
6-Grifon Wrath- make him one encounter whit 3 hit combo and 1 CD no one encounter whit 3 charge and 3 cd or down CD time
7-figther´s recovery-chance the skill for recovery % of missing heal or % of max hit point
8-terrinfying Impact- Make it more faster and more range the **** on map cant block him (like a freaky litle rock)
9-Knee breaker- can do it hit more range like bull change (lol flying kick) or buff it whit if target is prone do 25 % more dmg
10-Guarded assult- up the % reflec dmg to 20 or 15 % (really suck whit 3%) or booster whit one feat
11-Crushing surge- buff it whit the 3 hit do x2 dmg and you recovery 25 % of the dmg do it
12-ferocius reation- bosster whit more % HP recovery and lower CD or rework total
13- Into the frey- more % temporaly hit point can use on guard
14-Supremacy of steel- CC inmunity and Def bosster
15-iron warrior- Dmg resit buff and get % temporaly hit point of max hit point (no missing heal), put can use on guard or put CC like singularity and you can block all income dmg for x seg but you cannot move while is active
16-endyring warrior- change recovery 3 % of max hit point for each enemy kills by party
17-toughness (feat)- can do more max hit point 15 or 20 %
18-shielded resurgence (Feat)- up them 8-10% of hit point every 20-25 sec
19-distracting shield (Feat)- make it 10% less dmg
20-grit (feat)- 5-10 % every 30 sec
21-armor of bahamut (feat)- change it reduce time of guard recovery
22-iron guard (feat)- get X % damage resit and def efective
23-Martial Mastery (Feat)- can be better buffed whit more % HP or DEF to allies
24- GEt betters set bonus pve/pvp
P.S pliss DEv the change of feat must be only to GF no to GWF and make him more op
2-remove the speed debuff or lower it on the guardian fighter we don't have a dash/dodge ability even with 3 rank 8 dark enchantments with the coming downtime in module 3(delay after combat to mount) it will be very taxing to keep up with others without having to slot into the fray in any pvp.
3-a rework of how much ac a guardian fighter can have since plate is a stronger type of armor compared to mail it should easily give more ac than a gwf with the higher ac feat(sent t1) without having to use the same feat on the gf.
My second suggestion is due to the fact that block is only able to be used in dire situations not for every other hit, so having some extra mobility tied to strength would be welcomed to lessen the move speed debuff. As a heavy tank you would focus more on constitution and dexterity keeping the speed debuff. I say this as an offensive spec'd gf.
Con to give more hit points.
The focus marked enemy of Gf should be unable to use any CC on him.or at least Gf should have 50% more CC resist from the spesific Focus marked target.
Tide of Iron:Hits in a cone.Duration of the buff increased.
Shield talent:10/20/30% increase instead of 5/10/15
Lunging strike:No split reduced damage .
Villan's menace:Add 20-40% increased DR ,increased range and damage.
Griffon's Wrath: Double Stun duration,faster animation.(currently stun duration is really unnoticable)
Knee breaker :Improved slow or immobilize completely for short duration
Guarded Assault:3/6/9% reflect instead of 1/2/3
Crushing Surge:faster and less clunky animation
Combat Superiority: 20% damage instead of 10%.
Anvil of Doom:Ignores all resistances(as Shocking execution for TRs)
Flourish: Double it's damage.
Steel Blitz:Increase it's proc range and it's damage should be on par with the cleave damage of the attacking char.Or even better:Steel should hit with the same damage that at that time GF hits.Be att will or encounter(not daily)
WMS:Faster and more damage.
Into the Fray:increase HP portion gain.
Steel Defence:Fix it and make it work in pvp(cause now it don't it works only for 3 not for 5.And SE kills you even while Steel is on )
Crescendo:make it so now cannot be interupted as it should be.Damage increase
Feats
Distracting Shield:3/6/9 instead of 1/2/3
Potent Challenge:Generate 10/20/30% more threat instead of 5/10/15.
Weapon mastery:3/6/9% from 1/2/3
Take Measure:2/4/6/8/10 from 1/2/3/4/5
Plate Agility: 2/4/6/8/10 more deflect chance from 1/2/3/4/5 now
Crushing Pin:3/6/9/12/15 from 2/4/6/8/10.
I think a big issue is that our main stat is hit incredibly hard by diminishing returns.
We get tons of defense, but they add less and less.
I would take any set weapon, but the on for GFs, as my defens is already so high that the difference is hardly noticeable.
Meaning, I suggest that our "base defense" should be increased or the sets a bit reworked.
2)
Block - I hate the comparison with the GWFs, but they are our main "tank"-competitor.
And they excel us by far.
They can take all hits while "in blocking mode" (meaning unstoppable) and deal at the same time much damage, swallowing damage from a 360° arc. Ignoring the direction. Then they can sprint out of harms way.
Compare that to the GF:
* shield nibbled down in a few hits
* only a limited arc in front of you that is protected
* direction issues on ranged splat attacks (fireballs etc.)
* half a sitting duck all the time, even more so when the shield is broken due to low speed
3)
Damage
Apply the 4 pcs bonus from Grand Regent set to Stalwart Bulwark, and apply the old bonus from Stalwart Bulwark to Grand regent, making it a worthwhile set.
( When struck in combat you gain 5% of your maximum hit points as Power. This effect stacks up to 5 times. Lasts 8 seconds. )
This might also make lifesteal a useable stat for the GF. It is for all other classes.
Lets see what happens to GF in M3!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
This can be true in a sense but we have to remember that threat is the least of our problems, if a CW/GWF/HR can kill the mobs for just a few seconds.
Damage > Threat
First off, from a healing the group perspective, guard is great for not having to worry about the GFs health as much, yet, as was quoted, most GFs keep the block up well being full health, not necessarily because they aren't willing to lower it and take some damage before putting it back up, but because there is very little incentive to do so. If a GF specs down the tanking tree, her greatest threat generation and damage output is from behind her shield, so lowering it makes no sense.
As a healer I'd love to see a percentage of what healing I cast on a GF to be added as "block points" to his guard meter. It doesn't have to be much; 10% would be lovely. Just enough so that my heals are not totally wasted.
Likewise, well temporary hit points aid a GF herself, it'd be nice if temp hit points also affected the guard meter, such as adding an "absorb" to the meter similar to the skill that reduces the rate at which the guard meter is depleted. This would be very nice from my perspective, as if I know the GF is going to take a _huge_ hit, I could temp hp buff and perhaps prevent the meter from breaking. I also like this idea as I feel that GFs and DCs are innately tied together synergisticly, as we are opposites of a spectrum that should complement each other (the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts).
Lastly, as a DC what I would _like_ a GF to be able to do for _me_, is to be able to actually hard single target taunt off myself or group squishies. From playing a GF my biggest complaint about the tab ability is that I can't use it well I have my shield up, and lowering the shield to cast it on a target that is attacking a squishy is, at times, unviable with the number of enemies attacking me. I'd love for whatever the GF tab ability turns into, if it could have some sort of "active" rather than passive taunt that could, furthermore, be used to assist a group mate _well_ turtling.
___________
The only other suggestion I could add for consideration, is to change the last tier ability on each of the guardian fighter's paragon lines (the final one point ability) to, in someway, fundamentally change the effect of holding the shift-guard and it's interaction with the GFs tab ability.
I see this as an almost essential change, as there are many styles of playing a GF, almost all of which would not want the same type of guard mechanic.
Cheers,
-Helos
Perhaps this should be a secondary effect of GF aggro marks? The aggro marks don't work in PvP anyway (or they shouldn't) so this would be PvE specific.
Edit:
@post above
I am also a DC and GFs already have the tools to keep mobs off us or nullify most of their damage (feats, marks, Knight's Challenge, Knight's Valor, KV + Steel Defense, etc). In MOD3 all GFs will have most of these powers, so they'll have no excuse for not using them in specific fights. Even in PvP a good GF is invaluable because their large hitboxes can easily hide our relatively lean frames - a GF with the common sense to "block" effective player targetting of a DC or CW is invaluable.
GFs are defenders and are actually very similar to DCs in that all good GFs are defenders/leaders first and controllers/strikers second. Given the current meta, if good GFs had heals these people would be paladins. Remove their attack/aggro powers on top of that and function-wise they'd be almost exactly like DCs.
I'd say our true opposites/complements are CWs. We buff/heal, they debuff/control.
1) Dps - Conqueror
- new set of weapon and shield with more weapon dmg and offensive set bonus (power or crit)
- new set of armor with offensive stat, improvment Timeless of Hero maybe good idea
- in this path feat's which add more dmg to basic skills like Lunging Strike, Frontline Surge, Anvill of Doom, Griffon Wrath
- increase speed and dmg Cleav
- improvement AoE skills dmg
This two ways I don't play so I don't have much idea about this but:
2) Tank - Protector
- more aggro/threat
- some skills improve a survive (like Iron Warrior)
- some skills like Impossible to Catch (TR skill)
3) Buffer - Tacticia
- get any buff/debuff from skills, not only from Into the Frey - add buff/debuff only when player choose and 'buy' right feats
We have a lot of different players. For example we have mmo players who wants a tank and we have a D&D players who wants GF like dps with shield. In my opinon Conqueror must be on the same lvl of dps like GWF Sentinel and this third (not destroyer) but worse from destroyer. In the other side GWF sentinel should be better tank like GF Conqueror and Tactician but worse from Protector.
At the first 2 Magma Elements that you have to take on I saw again how frail and useless a GF is.
Yes, I can take and keep their aggro.
But due to their thrown firebombs and ring of fire around them I basically have to start walking away soon, as my shield breaks fast.
The attacks from the thrown firebombs hits me as well, even with shield, if they hit the spot behind me.
What did the TR do? ITC - ignore damage
What did the GWF do? Unstoppable - ignore damage
I am sorry, but the GF is at the moment absolute useless in dungeons. I still like my GF, but it gets harder and harder for me to justify to myself why I slow down my team by bringing this GF. I am in a nice guild that accepts my alt-o-manacy, I have no problem getting my GF into a DD run.
As I have every other class available to me as well with 14k+ GS each, I think I can tell the difference how long my Karru runs take.
And if my GF (KC or Timeless set or not) is in the team, it takes longer than usually.
Ever tried to take down a single Erinyee in epic MD with a GF? I think we should be able to do that! not the fastest, but able!
Why? Because Constitution give to less HP. My GF have 25-26 Constitution, most of CW have something around 15 and I have 28-29k HP, CW something around 22k and this is stupid. If CW have 22k with 15, get me a something around 40k.
This will be first good change: More Influence Ability Point
Second, someone write about that but: Armor and Shield have to less AC. GWF without shield can have more AC that GF, wtf?! GWF and any other class can't have more AC that GF in T1 set. In T2 set and Protector feats GF should have far far more AC that other class. But in this place is second things: different set for Conqueror and Protector GF, AC (without AC from shield and feats) Conqueror and GWF can be familiar, but when Conqueror have his shield he must have more AC that other class, a little but more.
So second idea: redesign GF armor set get more AC to all shield and armor not equal in all Timeless can have less AC that Grand Regen but can get for example more power and crit.
But is one major things: GF needs more damage!!!
No one hires a GF because we want to them to DPS. GFs should always, always be defenders first. You can take conqueror and make DPSing your secondary role, and you can even try to find some way to combine both being a defender/DPSing, but being a defender should never take a backseat to what is only an -OPTIONAL- path for your class. Because in the end ALL CWs are controllers, ALL DCs are leaders, ALL GWFs are strikers, etc. ALL GFs are defenders.
Trying to turn your GF into a primary striker when we already have a warrior designed for that (GWF) is laughable. And don't misunderstand the paragon feat paths, the only thing they were designed to do is give you bonuses/reward you for doing something. Conquerer rewards you for attacking, Protector rewards you for protecting your allies, Tactician rewards you for using the right combination of powers and setup. They were not designed to turn you into the equivalent of another class, and the best defender is definitely not the Protector just because he gets more rewards for standing in the middle of everything. The best defender is the GF with good threat generation/management and who still manages to do well at whatever else he prefers doing (attacking, taking damage for someone, using powers strategically).
No one?Who you mean?Your self?So because the majority of current NW players are former MMO players that are addicted to MMO stereotypes "tank" ,should the Gfs care about your opinion?
There are DD players here,which,surprisingly for MMo players as you,think that GFs as in DD should be FIGHTERS first ,meaning strikers, and GUARDIANS meaning defenders/controllers.GF is a hybrid a jack of all trades.Problem is now is sub par to any of each role he is trying to do.He cannot defend well,he cannot dps well,he cannot controll well
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And what is this thing every class coming here to tell us what GFs should be like.And what a coinsidence.Every class that comes here except GFs,come to the same conclusion:Don't buff GFs,no dps buff for Gfs.Speaks who??The bugged deap gash GWfs ,the perma TRs and the op CWs.Gosh.
"GFs should always, always be defenders first. You can take conqueror and make DPSing your secondary role, and you can even try to find some way to combine both being a defender/DPSing, but being a defender should never take a backseat to what is only an -OPTIONAL- path for your class. Because in the end ALL CWs are controllers, ALL DCs are leaders, ALL GWFs are strikers, etc. ALL GFs are defenders."
Sorry.You still play this game?Or maybe you are comfused with WoW?All cws are controllers?****!
So they are not the number 1 dps.
All GWFs are strikers?So why the 40k hp and the 40+50% dr?You are strikerss aren't you??Get of your magical Unstoppable then and your 40% dr then
"Trying to turn your GF into a primary striker when we already have a warrior designed for that (GWF) is laughable."
laughable is your opinion.Sorry.Conq path is a dps branch of GF like it or not.
"And don't misunderstand the paragon feat paths, the only thing they were designed to do is give you bonuses/reward you for doing something."
...??.......???.......something...????
"Conquerer rewards you for attacking,"
current it does not since our dps is too low.When the dps cong matches the dps of the DEFENSIVE build of GWF,IV then all conqs we will stop complaining.
Damage - Increase single target damage. This increase will add to our threat and make it harder for others draw targets away. Multiple target damage should not be increased as that is the realm of the Great Weapon Fighter. The amount of time it takes us to kill a target just makes our job that much more difficult.
Armour - Increase the benefit of being well armoured. Guardian Fighters should have the best AC in the game, as we are wearing heavy plate and carrying a shield. I don't do my party much good if I am successful in attracting the attention of the monsters, but then get killed quickly from all of the simultaneous damage.
Support talents - When we ditch our damaging capabilities to take on more of a support role, the effects are either unnoticeable, too short, or are easily cancelled out by another players damage.
Two of the most aggravating things when playing a GF is having your marked target walk away from you while you are hitting them with your highest damage attacks, and taking forever to kill anything.
Try to keep the comments respectful. If you disagree, that's fine. Just don't let it turn into a high school brawl. Thanks.
I see both sides. On the one hand, you can argue that DPS is the primary job of all classes and what they bring to the table is secondary. On the other hand you can argue the opposite, that their roles should come first and DPS should come second.
I have to admit I'm leaning towards the former. This game is special to me largely because of the unique combat style. I could never go back to another MMO unless it has this level of fun, dynamic sort of combat where you have to position your character in real time. However, I DON'T think Guardian Fighters have to necessarily top the charts themselves.
I LOVE the idea of Guardian Fighters giving increased combat advantage to other players, and I also think this should be an innate ability brought on by the TAB ability and subject to enhancement with the Enhanced Mark class feature. It's just the sort of thing that would increase utility of the GF without making them overpowered, since they rely on other classes to finish the job. It would ironically make good synergy with the Control Wizard's Renegade path too. ^^
Not to mention increasing the importance of combat advantage would make game play more dynamic and challenging.
I will talk about the content of the mod 2, because I haven't had time to test IWD (I have not heard about the changes they have done to the GWF, although I know there are some changes):
I think that the major problem is that the PvE content doesn't make this class desirable, when the 90% of the dungeons are about to control mass and mass of weak mobs, like PK for example, a GF brings nothing useful, it only would do the things slower and the only thing that we were contributing is make our party use less potions... But nobody cares about that... Since for the new artifacts we have to have 2 lvl 60 I've been playing a new GF and in the only 2 dungeons I felt that I actually help was in Idris and FH... those 2 dungeons give something that might need a Tank, some Hit Hard Mobs and CC Inmune Mobs, but however... they aren't so hard... a High GS team can do it perfectly withouth a GF... Also one time with my HR I played with a GF in MC, he kept all the fomorian warriors far from me, that helped a lot cause usually they are chasing me the 70% of the time... but why the GF was usefull in that case?, cause the Fomorian Warriors are CC Inmune, so CWs couldn't help with it... so, in my point of view... if you want to make GF usefull, you have to make a content in which they can be usefull and make it part of the majority of the dungeons, something to make ppl think that they might have a GF to be sure not to die, etc...
Also I would like to give another opinion about what might be wrong with the class...
I think the game should be pointing to: -> GWF: Great DPS/decent Tankiness, and GF: Great Tankiness/decent DPS, I don't think the Class is broken or whatever, but it need a little love...
Well sorry if I extended... the truth is that I've played a little with my GF (is fairly new), but I played for quite a while other MMORPGs and my opinions are based on those experiences also, and if I I'm wrong with the grammar in some parts, I'm sorry, like many, English is not my mother tongue...
In this game we have old MMO player who wants class like WoW or other MMO games, so tank is tank, etc. But the other side we have a D&D player who play in this game because this is NEVERWINTER and we don't have any different new game in this universe and for us (D&D player) GF i a Fighter and GWF is a Berserker (Unstoppable is Berserker's rampage).
In this situation i see only one solution, one compromise:
Player must have a possibility to build this class more flexible. Two ways are a minimum. One for DPS with shield - like in D&D, and Second for Defender - like in other MMO, no D&D games.
@tyrtallow you are very wrong. Why HR can't doing aggro management? Do you know Minsc? Cleric don't have a control? Do you know Cadderly Bonaduce? Who is a Fighter in Forgotten Realms? Bruenor Battlehammer, Belwar Dissengulp, Drizzt Do'Urden, Zaknafein, Thibbledorf Pwent. None of them was a defender. They all moved to fight on the front line, and do dmg. Example of GWF can be a Wulfgar or Fyodor. Pleas if you want talk about something, do some research first. Thanks and remember this is Forgotten Realms!!! This is or should be a D&D.
Not sure what type of GF's you have encountered, but i can assure you that mine does not rely on other's help "to finish the job". Especially in 1on1 situations, my GF does pretty well, due to roughly +160% burst dmg on all attacks, around +300% dmg if i crit.. along with 50+% ap gain. Hello 25k selfheals/ constant cc immunity/dailies ready in two received hits.
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I do not expect that people who use copy & paste forum - guide builds for their toons to run anything other than Bullrush, lunging strike, frontline surge, threatening rush, trample the fallen, ferocious reaction as conqueror GF's. I really don't but listen you should not take such GF's as the norm because there are literally tons of ways to build a GF effectively without following the herd of the sheep GF.
I'm talking about both PvE and PvP. You're talking about PvP specifically. I love using Griffon's Wrath to pick out stragglers and I can engage most HRs, CWs, DCs, and even GWFs around my gear score with little difficulty, with both of us at full health. I have an unusual set up where I put a point into each of the temporary hit point abilities, just one point, to increase the probability of gaining the damage buff (I feel the remaining points are wasted). This creates great synergy with the bloodcrystal raven. Griffon's wrath is harder to use than Frontline and almost no one uses it. That's why I love it. ^^.
I completely agree that people should take all builds with a grain of salt, and make modifications according to their own needs. I don't even advocate using conqueror specifically. But enough of me defending my honor. I think GFs are one of the deadliest PvP classes 1v1, aside from perma-stealth TRs and very high level GWFs.
That's actually part of the problem. It's in PVE where GFs are suffering the most, as a general consensus. And we have to come up with ways to help the GF in that field without making them too powerful in PvP. You basically illustrated my point.
So tell me. Since you think GFs are so powerful in PvP (a sentiment I agree with), what changes would you suggest to make them stronger in PvE without making yourself overpowered in PvP?
And of course, anyone is welcome to disagree with that sentiment, that GFs are fine in PvP. It's quite possible one has to be sacrificed for the other, which might be considered unjust compared to the other classes.
I really have no clue how the PvE aspect can get buffed without making us too overpowered in pvp. I barely did any PvE on my GF, though except the bag quests, so i can't rly tell what i am lacking or what could be reworked. I can only see it from a PvP perspective. What i did noticed though, is that it takes my GF who uses rank 7 gems and purples 2-3 times as long to finish the exact same content (Dread ring/Sharandar lairs), that my GWF who is without any enchantments in blue items can just rush through in no time.
I did not mean to attack you in my former post, btw. Cheers.
lol, nothing personal. So how do you think you could improve PvP for GFs? Because if in fact GFs aren't OP in PvP, that would give the developers much more leeway in making PvE improvements. My ideas have included boosting PvE armor, improving AoE skills that are not typically used/useful in PvP, etc. But if for instance GFs were considered underpowered in PvP as well, then in addition to minor changes like that the developers could give an across the board DPS increase, just as an example.
And again Plate should have a higher ac as I said on the first page of this thread.
Plate =/= Mail in terms of ac.