if anything gf is next on nerf hamer since after devs nerf gwf cw will cry that gf can own them on 1vs1 like they do for gwf atm so i would not hope for buffs of gf i dont even play my gf a lot and after kc nerf will not play at all
devs just listen to cw players because of them gwf will get nerfed,gf sets got nerfed and all becuase few cw come to cry how gwf can do allmost good damage as them and gf ty to sets can buff good.......:(
Gf is extremely difficult to play not only cause his enc/dailies are lacking but because of the horrible GF itemization.
All t1 and t2 sets lack armour pen!!!!Only KC and GR if you have two sets of them you get 400arm pen.
400 arm pen?This is what a normal t1 HR/TR body chest armour has alone!!
GF items lack critical and arm pen.The most damage dealers stat wise of the game.
And what a coincidence the most played classes HR/TR/GWf/Cw have tons of them!!
GF is left alone from devs since beta.While game grow,new classes enter ,mechanics redesigned etc..GF remained with its principal design ideas of early 2012.That is why is so difficult to play.Gf is out of the balance equation.Gf is not considered into the general discussion of "what if" when a major redesign enters the game.
All classes have an easy mode against Gfs cause devs DID NOT TESTED THE NEW ABILITIES of OTHER classes against Gfs....
Another example:Current pvp sets.
The devs gave each class a bonus to what think is thier primary asset.TRs got more stealth etc..What GF took?12% speed bonus!!!! lol
But that was not thier asset!That was thier liability!!They are already 6-8 % default slower than other classes.
All classes pvp sets have critical,arm pen.
What Gf sets have?None of these.Gosh one of the Gf pvp sets has regenaration!Regenaration with healing depression on in one of the most constant hitting classes by its design philosophy.What's next?
What is strange though...is that most of cheap blue GF items have critical or arm pen.While T!/T2 don't.Is like as in late game Gf class design Gfs were out attention and love.Notsurprisingly cause in dev play day ,NONE DEV EVER PLAYS A GF.ALL DEVS IN THEIR VIDEOS PLAY HR/TR/GWF.
What to say?Most of the dailies of GF are straight bugged.Example "Crescendo".In tooltip it stays you cannot be contolled or interupted.It happens all the time.
Tooltips about Gfs are all wrong.All state more damage than actually do.Animation is bugged and slow.
Bottomline:GFs were,are and 99% will be in the dust cause the dev team do not pay attention to the class.Plain and simple.Simple facts.
My pro tip is use it as i use it, to craft leadership and pray with full geared 3 purple artifacts & formorian set and all boons .
Also after IWD hit live i will use my GWF to craft leadership and pray with 18k GS 5 epic companions 1 Legend artifact & 2 90 purple arti +formorian fable sett 3 epic mount perfect enchants .
yeah,same here.after months and months of playing my GF(20k gs) is only good for leadership and praying,and it looks like my GWF(16k) will be doing the same thing.Its great to be fighter in neverwinter.
yeah,same here.after months and months of playing my GF(20k gs) is only good for leadership and praying,and it looks like my GWF(16k) will be doing the same thing.Its great to be fighter in neverwinter.
How so? GWF will still be a powerhouse you just wont have Deep Gash unless you follow a different paragon...
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
How so? GWF will still be a powerhouse you just wont have Deep Gash unless you follow a different paragon...
Deep Gash didnt move... YOu dont need to go a different path to get it, it was nerfed HARD - probably back inline where it should be but now alot of GWF builds are useless. I havnt tested mine in domination but im guessing itll be pretty pathetic.
Deep Gash didnt move... YOu dont need to go a different path to get it, it was nerfed HARD - probably back inline where it should be but now alot of GWF builds are useless. I havnt tested mine in domination but im guessing itll be pretty pathetic.
That's a shame. I would have liked to see GFs become stronger, not their number one rivals get kicked in the teeth. I guess that's fair, but still.
if anything gf is next on nerf hamer since after devs nerf gwf cw will cry that gf can own them on 1vs1 like they do for gwf atm so i would not hope for buffs of gf i dont even play my gf a lot and after kc nerf will not play at all
devs just listen to cw players because of them gwf will get nerfed,gf sets got nerfed and all becuase few cw come to cry how gwf can do allmost good damage as them and gf ty to sets can buff good.......:(
You're a troll, and a bad one!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
im telling the truth gf is next in line after nerf of gwf gf will be next just wait and see
GWF are ridiculously OP right now but no CW is asking for their nerf, most CW are only asking for our control powers to actually work as its our own defense. GF are the least of my problems as a CW. They are annoying and sometimes catch me off guard and kill me but not like a GWF that just power rolls over you.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
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fuldryMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 20
GWF are ridiculously OP right now but no CW is asking for their nerf, most CW are only asking for our control powers to actually work as its our own defense. GF are the least of my problems as a CW. They are annoying and sometimes catch me off guard and kill me but not like a GWF that just power rolls over you.
I only play GF. CWs in 1v1 situation are the class easiest to kill for my GF. Properly timed blocks, and 3 rushs allow GFs to eat CWs for breakfast. (think bull rush, lunging strike and frontline surge, + threatening rush at-will). Of course, if the GF tries to block ALL incoming attacks, they're dead.
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fuldryMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 20
All t1 and t2 sets lack armour pen!!!!Only KC and GR if you have two sets of them you get 400arm pen.
400 arm pen?This is what a normal t1 HR/TR body chest armour has alone!!
GF items lack critical and arm pen.The most damage dealers stat wise of the game.
And what a coincidence the most played classes HR/TR/GWf/Cw have tons of them!!
Another example:Current pvp sets.
The devs gave each class a bonus to what think is thier primary asset.TRs got more stealth etc..What GF took?12% speed bonus!!!! lol
But that was not thier asset!That was thier liability!!They are already 6-8 % default slower than other classes.
All classes pvp sets have critical,arm pen.
We dont need ArPen with GF. We have ArPen on DEX, the mark that decreases overall defense (8% reduction) and plaguefire that yet again decrease defense.
I am seriously considering the t2 set exactly for the 12% run speed, combined with 4 Run speed utilities, that might bring us close to the 20% run speed mark, permanently.
It is sufficient to prevent CWs to dodge/run away, might allow GF to catch HRs if they are not careful etc etc.
Now, if the game could stop giving me 0 damage on TRs and GWFs I might be able to handle them properly. That's what's annoying me the most at the moment. 14 seconds cooldown at 3000 Rec to do 0 damage ? Come on, that's an encounter slot wasted.
The 2 most annoying classes to confront in domination at the moment are permasteaths & GWFs. GWFs will be nerfed, and TRs will follow soon, I think that will solve some of my major issues in pvp.
Now for pve and t2 dungeons : the encounters I use are totally different from the pvp set. Plaguefire to debuff everyone defense: 2 AOEs to lower trash mobs defense to increase overall team DPS (plaguefire again), marks to increase threat & lower defense again... When I'm there all mobs have 15% to 53% less defenses. That's less ArPen needed for everyone in the team thus a huge increase in efficiency for everyone. Add to that Into the Fray and suddenly everyone is spamming dailies. We do have a role : control the mobs (as in keep them near you, to help CW target their dailies) get improved damage when mobs are suddenly controlled.
So yeah we have lackluster DPS, less damage than CWs, less damage than GWF, but I consisently do more damage than TR (which are afaik shining only during bosses) but GFs do have a use in pve.
I would love to have comparable damage as top-dpser. That might simply be fixed by increasing all base damage of all GF weapons to be closer to what the other classes have (come on, t2 weapons GF receive 640 top damage compared to ca. 900 for CWs; that's already ca. 25% less)
The annoying things are : long animation locks on a lot of encounters, VT for example is a place where I love to fly. PK also is like that, the surgeon fight is a fight I usually spend flying through the air. That's fun, as long as it does not kill the rest of the team.
GF per se do not need fixing, it is a class that require a lot of thinking and dedication to compete, so yeah tanking in nwo is hard and not for the faint of heart
I'd like our tool set to work as planned, if our encounters and feats could simply work and be less buggy that would help too...
Sorry man, I don't know anything about the PvE sets as I don't PvE. And unlike a lot of strictly PvE players who comment on PvP topics, I'm not going to pretend, and give advice, as if I do.
And to explain my last comments:
I was being sarcastic by making the implication that when our Devs set out to do one thing (nerf GWFs for example) they end up doing the opposite (make GWFs godly).
Hey guys, I wanted to drop by and talk a bit about Guardian Fighters and what is going on with them in the coming months. We have heard your feedback, and have been looking hard at where and how they fit into combat and group structure. We decided that we did not have time to implement the changes we wanted to make to improve Guardian Fighter utility, group strength, and tanking tools and still get adequate testing in. Therefore we wanted to step back and take a longer look at Guardians and make some bigger changes to them on a longer time frame where we could get more testing in.
We wanted to address a couple of really big issues that we feel are impeding the Guardian's ability to tank in groups. While we have not finalized the specifics about the changes we are making, I wanted to share some of the major issues we are hitting with the changes we are working on.
Threat Generation and Aggro Control - We know how frustrating it is to try and maintain threat with how much damage other classes can dish out, so we are making some key changes to allow the Guardian to both capitalize on that and generate substantially more threat in his own kit as well.
Interaction between Blocking and healers - We are looking at several options to adjust Block that removes some of the binary "I am blocking and therefore don't really benefit from healing" gameplay that exists as well as the risk of Block being broken so rapidly under sustained fire.
Group utility benefits - We wanted to provide some buffs that allow the Guardian to empower his teammates a bit as well as long as he is fulfilling his role correctly and maintaining threat on targets, and we have a couple ideas we are trying to allow the guardian to provide some pretty powerful increases to ally output without sacrificing the core of his role.
I don't currently have a timeline for when you guys will be able to see these things, but I wanted you guys to know we are taking your feedback and we are working on changes to improve Guardian gameplay and tanking in general.
Hey guys, I wanted to drop by and talk a bit about Guardian Fighters and what is going on with them in the coming months. We have heard your feedback, and have been looking hard at where and how they fit into combat and group structure. We decided that we did not have time to implement the changes we wanted to make to improve Guardian Fighter utility, group strength, and tanking tools and still get adequate testing in. Therefore we wanted to step back and take a longer look at Guardians and make some bigger changes to them on a longer time frame where we could get more testing in.
We wanted to address a couple of really big issues that we feel are impeding the Guardian's ability to tank in groups. While we have not finalized the specifics about the changes we are making, I wanted to share some of the major issues we are hitting with the changes we are working on.
Threat Generation and Aggro Control - We know how frustrating it is to try and maintain threat with how much damage other classes can dish out, so we are making some key changes to allow the Guardian to both capitalize on that and generate substantially more threat in his own kit as well.
Interaction between Blocking and healers - We are looking at several options to adjust Block that removes some of the binary "I am blocking and therefore don't really benefit from healing" gameplay that exists as well as the risk of Block being broken so rapidly under sustained fire.
Group utility benefits - We wanted to provide some buffs that allow the Guardian to empower his teammates a bit as well as long as he is fulfilling his role correctly and maintaining threat on targets, and we have a couple ideas we are trying to allow the guardian to provide some pretty powerful increases to ally output without sacrificing the core of his role.
I don't currently have a timeline for when you guys will be able to see these things, but I wanted you guys to know we are taking your feedback and we are working on changes to improve Guardian gameplay and tanking in general.
Thank you again for the continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
I am not really sure how you got those ideas or who of your team tested the GF thoroughly and came up with those problems. Threat Generation and Blocking/Healing not being an interesting enough synergy are the least of all GF problems.
In fact, I will go as far as saying that threat generation is no problem at all as long as other, more important problems are tackled.
The issues I ran into when playing my GF toon in a high-end group that is running Castle Never and such are quite different and I'll gladly take the time to explain.
1. The role as a tank
While playing the GF as the tank of the group you can not avoid comparing the GF to the other, more viable "tank" out there; the GWF. Where the GF suffers, especially in high-end situations, the GWF shines due to the class being superior in three key features:
-Crowd Control Immunity
Unstoppable enables the GWF to sustain a high amount of DPS and thus a high amount of threat on multiple monsters almost all the time. The GF needs to jump out of red circles frequently or duck behind his shield. This is emphasized in dungeons with a large amount of monsters with CC-Abilities (Dread Vault, Spell Plague) or in high-end content (Valindra, Castle Never) where the GF needs to spend most of his time trying to stay alive or dodging reds. Time spend this way is time spend NOT generating threat or dealing damage.
-Multi-Target-Capability
Cleave suffers from an incredibly small arc compared to the Wicked Strike of the GWF. This results in a fairly low sustained dps and threat generation once all key encounter-spells are on cooldown. In order to stay competitive, classes either need a strong AoE At-Will or hard hitting AoE-Encounters on a short cooldown. The GF lacks both. It makes it fairly hard to hit the maximum amount of possible targets aswell. Where the GWF will almost always hit up to five targets or more (Mighty Leap) it becomes a challenge on it's own to hit more than three targets as a GF.
-Sustained Tanking
Being "tanky" itself and being able to tank the damage of multiple monster for a prolonged time are two very different beasts altogether. I will flat out claim that the GWF is more capable of the latter compared to the GF. This is not only due to the regular boosts in temporary hitpoints from their Unstoppable ability, but also due to their high return of hitpoint via lifesteal (combined with their high DPS). This leaves the GF at the mercy of other members of the group to actually survive all the aggro it wants to generate.
2. Being a valuable part of a group
The next problem the GF as a class faces is its viability compared to the other classes. You don't pick a GF for pure DPS and neither do you pick it for the group utility. The most obvious answers to those two questions one asks when creating a group are the GWF (pure DPS, Tanking) and CW (pure DPS, Utility). So, how do you fix those problems?
Since you can not compete against pure DPS classes the solution would be a combination of "some DPS", "Tanking" and "Utility". The only class who can live solely on their Utility aspect would be the Cleric, so you have to have at least a medium amount of DPS on your own. Medium DPS and Tanking alone aren't sufficient either, as a GWF provides both at a way higher performance.
The strongest reason why you would bring a CW to a dungeon can be summed up with one spell; Arcane Singularity. It also is a very unique spell with almost no equivalent among current classed, except maybe the Come and Get it.
All it would take - in addition to the above mentioned things (Medium DPS, Tanking, Utility) - to make the GF a viable, even desirable class would be a spell similar to the Arcane Singularity. It would also break the dominance of the CW class. The tools for that are even in the game.
3. So, what would you change?
I'll briefly propose a couple of changes, fixes or buffs that would make the GF a more sought-after class. Some ideas are more fleshed-out than others, but in the end it's your job to come up with proper solutions to the problems.
-Cleave now hits targets in a 180° arc
-Marks on targets now last a fixed amount of time (they'll currently vanish as soon as the monster hits the GF)
-Additional benefits to group members hitting marked targets
-Enforced Threat now pulls affected targets towards the GF and taunts them, leaving them marked (smaller radius than Arcane Singularity)
-some form of short-term CC-Immunity that is tied to PvE only (GF seem to have no problems in PvP with that whatsoever)
-a flat out DPS increase by at least 20%
-an interesting mechanic that rewards blocking (you currently want to avoid blocking as much as possible)
-a strong self-Healing-over-Time ability (tied to a daily maybe?) or much more potent regeneration/lifesteal on order to better stay alive in PvE
-a potent buff to the DPS of the group or a series of minor DPS-buffs tied to various different spells
Together with an overall DPS increase as well as a better cleave I don't see the GF having any problems with threat generation at all. In fact I rarely struggle to maintain aggro right now, even with the current set of abilities. The above mentioned changes should be more than enough for that matter.
Regarding the interaction between Blocking and Healers I didn't notice any problems or concerns with that. But that might be due to me being used to play in a stable group of above-average performing guildmembers and only rarely dipping into the dangerous wilds called "PUGs".
Your analysis of the utility problem is spot-on, I'll give you that. A "poor-mans-singularity" as well as a DPS-Buff for the group should solve most of it though. It might even break the dominance of CW-heavy groups... A man can dream!
I am not really sure how you got those ideas or who of your team tested the GF thoroughly and came up with those problems. Threat Generation and Blocking/Healing not being an interesting enough synergy are the least of all GF problems.
In fact, I will go as far as saying that threat generation is no problem at all as long as other, more important problems are tackled.
The issues I ran into when playing my GF toon in a high-end group that is running Castle Never and such are quite different and I'll gladly take the time to explain.
1. The role as a tank
While playing the GF as the tank of the group you can not avoid comparing the GF to the other, more viable "tank" out there; the GWF. Where the GF suffers, especially in high-end situations, the GWF shines due to the class being superior in three key features:
-Crowd Control Immunity
Unstoppable enables the GWF to sustain a high amount of DPS and thus a high amount of threat on multiple monsters almost all the time. The GF needs to jump out of red circles frequently or duck behind his shield. This is emphasized in dungeons with a large amount of monsters with CC-Abilities (Dread Vault, Spell Plague) or in high-end content (Valindra, Castle Never) where the GF needs to spend most of his time trying to stay alive or dodging reds. Time spend this way is time spend NOT generating threat or dealing damage.
-Multi-Target-Capability
Cleave suffers from an incredibly small arc compared to the Wicked Strike of the GWF. This results in a fairly low sustained dps and threat generation once all key encounter-spells are on cooldown. In order to stay competitive, classes either need a strong AoE At-Will or hard hitting AoE-Encounters on a short cooldown. The GF lacks both. It makes it fairly hard to hit the maximum amount of possible targets aswell. Where the GWF will almost always hit up to five targets or more (Mighty Leap) it becomes a challenge on it's own to hit more than three targets as a GF.
-Sustained Tanking
Being "tanky" itself and being able to tank the damage of multiple monster for a prolonged time are two very different beasts altogether. I will flat out claim that the GWF is more capable of the latter compared to the GF. This is not only due to the regular boosts in temporary hitpoints from their Unstoppable ability, but also due to their high return of hitpoint via lifesteal (combined with their high DPS). This leaves the GF at the mercy of other members of the group to actually survive all the aggro it wants to generate.
2. Being a valuable part of a group
The next problem the GF as a class faces is its viability compared to the other classes. You don't pick a GF for pure DPS and neither do you pick it for the group utility. The most obvious answers to those two questions one asks when creating a group are the GWF (pure DPS, Tanking) and CW (pure DPS, Utility). So, how do you fix those problems?
Since you can not compete against pure DPS classes the solution would be a combination of "some DPS", "Tanking" and "Utility". The only class who can live solely on their Utility aspect would be the Cleric, so you have to have at least a medium amount of DPS on your own. Medium DPS and Tanking alone aren't sufficient either, as a GWF provides both at a way higher performance.
The strongest reason why you would bring a CW to a dungeon can be summed up with one spell; Arcane Singularity. It also is a very unique spell with almost no equivalent among current classed, except maybe the Come and Get it.
All it would take - in addition to the above mentioned things (Medium DPS, Tanking, Utility) - to make the GF a viable, even desirable class would be a spell similar to the Arcane Singularity. It would also break the dominance of the CW class. The tools for that are even in the game.
3. So, what would you change?
I'll briefly propose a couple of changes, fixes or buffs that would make the GF a more sought-after class. Some ideas are more fleshed-out than others, but in the end it's your job to come up with proper solutions to the problems.
-Cleave now hits targets in a 180° arc
-Marks on targets now last a fixed amount of time (they'll currently vanish as soon as the monster hits the GF)
-Additional benefits to group members hitting marked targets
-Enforced Threat now pulls affected targets towards the GF and taunts them, leaving them marked (smaller radius than Arcane Singularity)
-some form of short-term CC-Immunity that is tied to PvE only (GF seem to have no problems in PvP with that whatsoever)
-a flat out DPS increase by at least 20%
-an interesting mechanic that rewards blocking (you currently want to avoid blocking as much as possible)
-a strong self-Healing-over-Time ability (tied to a daily maybe?) or much more potent regeneration/lifesteal on order to better stay alive in PvE
-a potent buff to the DPS of the group or a series of minor DPS-buffs tied to various different spells
Together with an overall DPS increase as well as a better cleave I don't see the GF having any problems with threat generation at all. In fact I rarely struggle to maintain aggro right now, even with the current set of abilities. The above mentioned changes should be more than enough for that matter.
Regarding the interaction between Blocking and Healers I didn't notice any problems or concerns with that. But that might be due to me being used to play in a stable group of above-average performing guildmembers and only rarely dipping into the dangerous wilds called "PUGs".
Your analysis of the utility problem is spot-on, I'll give you that. A "poor-mans-singularity" as well as a DPS-Buff for the group should solve most of it though. It might even break the dominance of CW-heavy groups... A man can dream!
I think if you read the Devs response a little closer you will see that these issues you listed are exactly what he just said they were going to fix. Like EXACTLY.
Crowd control immunity, and sustained tanking ability looks like something they are going to address through an improved block mechanic. And for group utility they are looking into having GF abilities buff the group which would go a long way toward making them more valued in dungeons.
Do you want to take an extra CW, or a GF who can boost everyone's DPS (hopefully the buff from the GF will = more overall Group DPS than adding a CW would.
But that's PVE and nobody cares about PvE because I Don't, right?
I'm not going to list a bunch of PvP wants and needs here, I'm sure there will be a feedback thread created by a Dev when they are ready to start working on the GF.
I have to say, it's very nice to finally hear some developer feedback about this!
However I can't end without saying that whereas I understand the devs have been busy with Mod 3 and other concerns, leaving the class like this for so long without any word was pretty poor form.
I do remember them saying they recognized that GF had some problems a while ago, but waiting this long to address them, and pushing out a TON of content in the meantime, while not addressing the GF was a pretty big slap in the face.
Impressed, helps turn the GF into a better tank. Now we just need the game requiring a tank...
A world to defend
A city to protect
innocents to save
"Why?" They ask "they hate you"
We're heroes it's what we do.
*patiently waiting on Paragon City*
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epclipseingmoonMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2014
Our main issue is the fact our passive enfoced threat dosent generate enougth threat and that makes this tank class not needed in dungions because it fails to do its role holding agro.....
also I like what gorakasul posted eairlyer about cleave hitting 180 dergress afterall the animation does look that way anyway.
What about if this class was givin two primariy abilitys like the main is constitution but if you made strenth a main too. Yes that would make this the only class with two main stats and one secondary but that seems to be the most easyest fix.
Our main issue is the fact our passive enfoced threat dosent generate enougth threat and that makes this tank class not needed in dungions because it fails to do its role holding agro.....
.
With defence hard cap at 48% and max 35k hp ,you don't want more aggro ,or else you will die in 20-25 secs.
Test:
After the Hrimmir death at FHG and while ads chasing you...you have all the aggro then.Stand still
"Threat Generation and Aggro Control - We know how frustrating it is to try and maintain threat with how much damage other classes can dish out, so we are making some key changes to allow the Guardian to both capitalize on that and generate substantially more threat in his own kit as well."
If the aggro is increased while GFs survivability remains the same ,you 'll actually deal more damage than good.
And when i say survivability i mean both passive(more tanky-more AC/DR ,some feature that gives limited CC immune) or active (better dps so number of adds is somehow under control-some are killed).
If you are going to increase aggro you have to increase survivability.otherwise GF cannot survive.Block has a limited degrees arc that is effective and brokes easily.If adds surround GF ,then Gf goes prone /stun untill he dies 4-5 secs later.
" Interaction between Blocking and healers - We are looking at several options to adjust Block that removes some of the binary "I am blocking and therefore don't really benefit from healing" gameplay that exists as well as the risk of Block being broken so rapidly under sustained fire."
This is an issue that none Gf ever mentioned.We do not have an issue with that.Cause we barely block-except bosses/minibosses and mostly try to stay out of big red.if it would be solved it would be great ,but really for most GFs this is not an urgent issue.
" Group utility benefits - We wanted to provide some buffs that allow the Guardian to empower his teammates a bit as well as long as he is fulfilling his role correctly and maintaining threat on targets, and we have a couple ideas we are trying to allow the guardian to provide some pretty powerful increases to ally output without sacrificing the core of his role."
It would be great.But you have to do it with out forcing GF to slot more than one encounter to do that.Most Gfs run with 2 self damage encounters and one team buff.Either it is Into the Fray or enforced Threat.And there is a reason for this.If a GF runs with two team buffing powers slotted ,his dps will go into abyss and you wil end up in the same problem:A Gf as buffbot ,while there are other classe buffbots that bring more into table-added dps or heal(CW/DC).Again Gfs will be underpowered/undesired.
The key to the meta game is CC.GWF shine cause he ignores CC of mobs/bosses.You need to add some CC immunity to the GF.
Mark could be reworked around that thesis.How much and how devs know much better than us.
And ofcourse GFG needs better dps.That can be achieved indirectly by just enhance/buff T1/t2 armor stats.Give him more power/recovery/arm pen/critical.Or just increase his power damage by 15-20% at least.
Unfortunately there is always to be a comparison with the GWF.Both are fighters ,both are tanky.
As others said,we understand you cannot make the Gf another GWf.GF can remain a hybrid-some dps some control some buffs) but in both three sectors his current performance is abysmal low compared to any class.So in the end his average utility to a group remains by far lower ,to any class.Even if this class shines in only one sector.
I mean even that a GF brings aggro control,some dps and some buffs ,the su of these contributions is by far less to a dungeon run of a group than to bring a class that will do just good any of the three.The situation is that bad.
Gf needs buffs in all three utilities in order to become gain viable.Needs more DPS contribution to a party,more aggro control,more buffs.
And ofcourse to remain alive while doing all this.
0
epclipseingmoonMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
With defence hard cap at 48% and max 35k hp ,you don't want more aggro ,or else you will die in 20-25 secs.
Test:
After the Hrimmir death at FHG and while ads chasing you...you have all the aggro then.Stand still
You are dead.
A simple fix is to increase the armorclass of plate resistance wise then the extra agro will be manageable with a dc healing them all the time.
I think if you read the Devs response a little closer you will see that these issues you listed are exactly what he just said they were going to fix. Like EXACTLY.
Crowd control immunity, and sustained tanking ability looks like something they are going to address through an improved block mechanic. And for group utility they are looking into having GF abilities buff the group which would go a long way toward making them more valued in dungeons.
Do you want to take an extra CW, or a GF who can boost everyone's DPS (hopefully the buff from the GF will = more overall Group DPS than adding a CW would.
Out of the many problems that I stated only 2-3 are really covered by what he said in his post:
-Encourage using block
-Group DPS buff
-Other form of utility
Everything else was quite different... I especially disagree on Threat Generation being a major problem for the GF. It is not! You can manage to maintain the threat even now and it'll be a walk in the park once GF damage, multi-target-capabilities and sustained tanking are fixed/buffed.
Your last bit is very right and important though. As the person who is mostly responsible for picking the classes when building groups in our guild, there is a fairly simple equation that I use:
Personal DPS + Group DPS Buff + Other Utilities >= CW DPS + CW Group Buffs + Arcane Singularity
If the class in question does not meet the requirements, I'll instead take a GWF or CW. Apart from those two only the DC meets the requirements when properly skilled/played/equipped.
The GF would be the perfect class to host a skill similar to the Arcane Singularity to fix the dependency on CWs...
This has to be one of the worst ideas... ever! A game where every group is forced to take a healing DC with it to manage to beat the content is a game that I will not play. It's good that a group does not necessarily bring both a pure tank and a pure healer to a dungeon. The DC is viable because he does not need to heal but is able to focus on personal DPS + group DPS buffs.
Hi! So with module 3 development coming to a close and the developers eyes set on new horizons, it seems the developers are finally ready to begin looking at the lowly Guardian Fighter, the much maligned cousin of the Great Weapon Fighter with a none-the-less loyal and strong following. Recently they released this statement on another thread in the forums.
Hey guys, I wanted to drop by and talk a bit about Guardian Fighters and what is going on with them in the coming months. We have heard your feedback, and have been looking hard at where and how they fit into combat and group structure. We decided that we did not have time to implement the changes we wanted to make to improve Guardian Fighter utility, group strength, and tanking tools and still get adequate testing in. Therefore we wanted to step back and take a longer look at Guardians and make some bigger changes to them on a longer time frame where we could get more testing in.
We wanted to address a couple of really big issues that we feel are impeding the Guardian's ability to tank in groups. While we have not finalized the specifics about the changes we are making, I wanted to share some of the major issues we are hitting with the changes we are working on.
Threat Generation and Aggro Control - We know how frustrating it is to try and maintain threat with how much damage other classes can dish out, so we are making some key changes to allow the Guardian to both capitalize on that and generate substantially more threat in his own kit as well.
Interaction between Blocking and healers - We are looking at several options to adjust Block that removes some of the binary "I am blocking and therefore don't really benefit from healing" gameplay that exists as well as the risk of Block being broken so rapidly under sustained fire.
Group utility benefits - We wanted to provide some buffs that allow the Guardian to empower his teammates a bit as well as long as he is fulfilling his role correctly and maintaining threat on targets, and we have a couple ideas we are trying to allow the guardian to provide some pretty powerful increases to ally output without sacrificing the core of his role.
I don't currently have a timeline for when you guys will be able to see these things, but I wanted you guys to know we are taking your feedback and we are working on changes to improve Guardian gameplay and tanking in general.
Thank you again for the continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Hallelujah!
I think now is the perfect opportunity to put bitter feelings aside and start fresh. So I'd like to create a fresh, clean thread for people to put their suggestions so that the developers don't have to dig around hundreds of angry, butthurt messages to find some real, well-thought out and solid criticism.
The following rules should be respected:
1. Please make sure your suggestion takes into consideration multiple aspects of gameplay, both PvE and PvP and the leveling up experience. What you say has the potential to influence ALL Guardian Fighters, not just yourself.
2. If you disagree with someone's suggestions, be respectful in your disagreement. No name-calling or calling someone the infamous N word (no not that one) for posting a suggestion you disagree with.
3. This thread is for coming up with suggestions, NOT for flaming the developers. We're here to put the past behind us.
Also, if the moderators wish to combine this thread with an official thread created by the developers, then by all means do so.
***
So without further ado, let me begin.
I think we can disagree as much as we want, but the developers are probably gonna insist on these issues they cited, and we should focus on coming up with solutions that compromise between what we want and these points. I really believe GFs are ok (not ideal, but ok) in PvP, so I'd suggest the following changes to start setting things right without risking creating another overpowered class.
Concerning threat generation and aggro control:
-Increase the DPS of at-wills. This would create a minor increase in PvP performance while creating a more noticeable increase in PvE performance. At-wills make up a very small portion of PvP damage, but are essential to PvE.
-Increase the number of NPCs that require a tank in order to be defeated (but not by much!). I think the GF's role in many boss fights is understated and that they are actually very useful in many places. However, increasing their usefulness in the instances where they are least desirable would really help.
Concerning blocking/healing synergy
-Add new mechanics to the blocking ability, such as a buff to incoming heals while blocking that doesn't affect aggro. This would also have a minimum benefit in PvP while creating a noticeable difference in PvE. I also think this has a nice, realistic thematic touch, since your character is essentially resting behind his/her shield.
Concerning group utility benefits
-I think something creative is what the doctor ordered. How about yet another new mechanic, this time to the TAB ability? I think TAB can be used to create some benefits to other classes in addition to the current defense debuff. For example, a Focus Marked creature could take additional damage from a CW's AoE attacks (from being "distracted"), is more susceptible to a Rogue's attacks via combat advantage, is more vulnerable to a GWF's crowd control, etc etc. This adds an interesting and unique element of teamwork from what's considered currently the weakest TAB ability.
And, I think the most obvious solution is to increase the abilities of the PvE armor sets so that they match the utility and performance of the Knight Captain's and Timeless Hero sets.
***
All right then. Let's get this party started!
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2014
There are some reasons why a Guardian Fighter tank is not desirable in the current state of the game:
1. Players have much higher stats than was balanced for and therefore can "tank" a fair amount of damage
2. Following on from 1, this gives a Cleric a much larger window to heal players
3. Defense/Deflect enter Diminishing Returns at a relatively low level and before that level grant a large amount of % resistance
4. Lifesteal has become much more obtainable since module 2 and allows players to effectively heal themselves
5. Following on from 4, power and damage bonuses have become much more common as well, amplifying the effect of life steal even more
Thus other classes can have their HP levels swing from one extreme to the other quite a lot, but for the most part will not require someone to take some of that damage/threat off them.
Additionally, a Great Weapon Fighter can tank (in terms of taking damage) much better than a Guardian Fighter due to the large amount of Damage Resistance % Unstoppable grants. This class also has almost the same base damage resistance level, even when going down the Destroyer or Instigator path (more than a Guardian Fighter if going down Sentinel path).
One necessary change may be to reduce Damage Resistance Unstoppable grants to 7.5--15% based on Determination level, with the Sentinel capstone giving it the current 20--40%.
To address this, changes to Guardian Fighter alone will not make any difference, as they cannot compete with the damage output of the other classes and they are not part of the party anyway, so changing them would not change how the current party setup manages an instance.
There is both intra as well as inter class balance to be considered to make this class viable.
For one, non-tank classes probably should be more fragile when taking hits. This can be achieved in several ways:
A. Change Defense/Deflect scaling to grant much less % per point, but have few/no Diminishign Returns, so any class with high investment can sustain damage, but those who do not invest will not be able to run through several packs of spawns, herding them along and survive.
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B. Change the Hitpoints available to classes. For example this could result in HR/CW having a lvl60 HP (at minimum CON roll) of 17k down from 22k, TR/DC staying where they are, GWF HP reduced by 1k, GF HP increased by 5k (for example by allowing maxHP rom STR as well). This is because most attacks deal 800+ damage anyway, so the current minute difference in HP between classes does not allow the GF to tank better than another class from a pure HP standpoint.
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C. Change Lifesteal mechanics to have a cap in how much Hitpoints can be returned to the user for each attack. This cap could for example be 150% Weapon damage. This would make a cleric much more relevant and also having a tank taking some threat off the group much more useful, as players cannot instantly heal themselves to full by simply using a single encounter/daily power.
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D. Classes other than GWF and GF receive a damage resistance debuff of 1% each time they take damage from a monster, capping at 15%. The stacks dissipate if no damage was taken for 10 seconds. This would discourage non-tank classes from charging ahead of the group and carelessly taking threat, as many players currently do to speed dungeon runs up (pulling half the dungeon, AoE damage killing everything, then pulling the 2nd half of the full dungeon)
Probably a combination of the above 4 options is required to address Inter class balance
Now for Intra Class balance
Knight's Valor ideally ought to split the damage taken by an ally after that ally's own damage resistance has been applied to the damage. This means that if a Legion Devil deals 2000 damage to Devoted Cleric, who has 25% damage resistance, 500 damage would taken off the attack, and the remaining 1500 split 750 each way between Devoted Cleric and Guardian Fighter. Currently, it appears to split the damage 1000+1000 and then apply damage resistance for the ally (and apparently much reduced damage resistance for the Guardian Fighter, potentially a buggy part here).
Guard meter should deplenish at 20% of the current rate per attack blocked with the maximum Guard loss cap remaining at its current level. When being healed and hitpoints are at maximum, healing should replenish Guard meter (at the same rate as attacks deplenish it, to not be too powerful). This would allow a Guardian Fighter to tank more actively and use Guard more regularly.
To not favor Conqueror spec too much, it may be necessary to tie these effects to tier 2 or tier 3 Tactician/Protector feats instead, or reduce Power from Reckless Attacker to +50% rather than +100%.
Distracting Shield is among the overlooked Feats, but is probably what a Guardian Fighter should do for the team. Potentially it would be a good idea to replace one of the existing class features or add 2 somewhat different tier 2/3 feats to Protector/Tactician to make the Guardian Fighter more team friendly. An example would be to have Enduring Warrior class feature turned into Reduce target damage and movespeed by 2/4/6% when blocking their attack for 10 seconds. Then have Paragon feats such as "Enduring Warrior now reduces target damage by an additional 1/2/3/4/5%" (Protector) and "Enduring Warrior now causes the target to let its guard down, increasing the damage they take by 1.5/3/4.5/6/7.5%" (Tactician)
In synergy with some of the inter class balance suggestions, this could allow the Guardian Fighter to indirectly protect the team from damage as well.
A rework of Feats such as Shielded Resurgence and Grit would be valued as well. Shielded Resurgence for example could make the Guardian Fighter immune to Control Effects after being struck by one for 0.5/1/1.5 seconds, Grit could have its cooldown reduced to 8 seconds.
For threat generation, I think the development team probably has a good idea of how best to manage it and I'll leave that to them.
These are just some initial thoughts.
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chaoscourtesanMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2014
I'm willing to trust that they will do something sensible with the information they have, so I don't have a bunch to say..
But, I would like to say that:
I am PvE only, so I don't talk about PvP. I just don't want to become a support character. I don't mind having support powers, especially passive ones, but I want to feel like I'm in the game, rather than a cheerleader.
I also have no interest in staying hidden behind my shield. Shields are for active blocking, not hiding behind, imo. I want to continue to be a fighter, not a practice dummy for mobs. I want to turtle up when the time is right, then let out a mad burst of 'backatcha!'
I'd like to move faster.. to get in and draw aggro to myself and gather them together before they charge a less well-armored character. But unfortunately, GF's are slow, in and out of combat. That never made sense to me, although the heavier armor can explain it.
Independently of GF issues, I was thinking that they should consider making shift-key features only work during combat, and outside of combat, they could make it 'sprint' for all classes, without relation to stamina at all, or at half stamina usage. I mean, who doesn't find it cumbersome to go to the mailbox from the P.E. Shrine, and have to use stutter-teleport skills, or rolls, that sometimes make it worse than just jogging. And it's such a short distance to bother mounting.
Anyway, I think that might help everyone but it would certainly help GF's. There may be good reasons why it wouldn't be practical. (I guess the rooftop and treetop runners might not like the idea. Maybe a toggle of some sort?)
That's all I have. I like the idea about the added tab/mark functionality you expressed above.
Rhyon Cawdorian GWF | Opa Loka TR | Cormac Argentus III DC | Annika Thornblade GF | Aerys Skydark HR | Bartin Findlor TR | Aellia Baalthrall CW | Lucan Hawkmoon CW | Opa Brahk GWF | Korzbyrk DC | Den Kruk GWF | Jherek Skarsin CW |
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
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zhaofuoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 129Bounty Hunter
edited May 2014
- The block, all GF knows that blocking is very clunky. (they need to address that)
- Threat Generation is not really an issue you have feats and other passive that help generate more threat. so i don't see any reason why this is a major problem for us GF. (we have other host of problem to be address about) if they really need to focus on this then increase our overall Main hand damage, its miles away from the other main hand.
- i would propose to change the tab ability into a totally different one, heck why not just put "into the fray" in our tab. thats much more better IMO
- Again with the Block, it's good that they know that our block gets easily broken under sustain fire(a stamina based block would be better, meaning your stamina gradually goes down the longer you hold your block rather than damage)
- I keep saying this, but deflect for a guardian fighter should be more in par with a rouge deflect mitigation 75% (your holding a shift for crying out loud)
- Tide of iron skill, this skill is good IMO it recovers 10% guard meter and reduce the damage mitigation of the opponet compared to shield slam that records 5% guard meter? then why not put a damage mitigation debuff on this as it's almost the same skill or at-will IMO
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited May 2014
Here's what I'd like to see:
1. When a GF is blocking, he creates a cone area behind him, where any allies standing in said area benefits from substantially increased damage and CC resistance.
2. Increase the speed at which a GF can raise their shield.
3. Increase the speed at which a GF can turn while blocking, (compared to what it is now).
4. The Crushing Surge At-Will seems to suffer from this odd inability to break the 3-attack sequence, which often leaves you striking with your weapon an additional 1 or 2 times, even after you stopped clicking. Remove this chaining, and allow the player to break the sequence, (Cleave doesn't suffer from this, for comparison).
5. Add *something* to the GF's tab ability. Why couldn't a GF's special mark simply wipe all other team member's aggro from an enemy?
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
4. The Crushing Surge At-Will seems to suffer from this odd inability to break the 3-attack sequence, which often leaves you striking with your weapon an additional 1 or 2 times, even after you stopped clicking. Remove this chaining, and allow the player to break the sequence, (Cleave doesn't suffer from this, for comparison).
I think the best way to fix this is to make our group/party buffs a tab ability. Our tab ability is really bad and annoying to know it exists. This will make us extremely effective in pvp and pve.
Sorry to burst the bubble, but GF's can tank without losing aggro already. The problem here is, as with every other QQ related topic, the players themselves. Maybe 1 out of 10 GF has a proper NON forum guide - copy & paste - spec and actually knows what they are doing. Idc much about pve but as it stands, mark in pvp cannot be replaced by some silly PARTY buffs since i am the one who is in need of more damage in order to kill and not my party... and because mark adds 16% damage to my build i see the suggestion of reworking it as a red flag.
I do not play my GF as a tank, so don't force me to lose a huge chunk of my burst damage just because you have no clue what you are even suggesting.
Comments
devs just listen to cw players because of them gwf will get nerfed,gf sets got nerfed and all becuase few cw come to cry how gwf can do allmost good damage as them and gf ty to sets can buff good.......:(
All t1 and t2 sets lack armour pen!!!!Only KC and GR if you have two sets of them you get 400arm pen.
400 arm pen?This is what a normal t1 HR/TR body chest armour has alone!!
GF items lack critical and arm pen.The most damage dealers stat wise of the game.
And what a coincidence the most played classes HR/TR/GWf/Cw have tons of them!!
GF is left alone from devs since beta.While game grow,new classes enter ,mechanics redesigned etc..GF remained with its principal design ideas of early 2012.That is why is so difficult to play.Gf is out of the balance equation.Gf is not considered into the general discussion of "what if" when a major redesign enters the game.
All classes have an easy mode against Gfs cause devs DID NOT TESTED THE NEW ABILITIES of OTHER classes against Gfs....
Another example:Current pvp sets.
The devs gave each class a bonus to what think is thier primary asset.TRs got more stealth etc..What GF took?12% speed bonus!!!! lol
But that was not thier asset!That was thier liability!!They are already 6-8 % default slower than other classes.
All classes pvp sets have critical,arm pen.
What Gf sets have?None of these.Gosh
What is strange though...is that most of cheap blue GF items have critical or arm pen.While T!/T2 don't.Is like as in late game Gf class design Gfs were out attention and love.Notsurprisingly cause in dev play day ,NONE DEV EVER PLAYS A GF.ALL DEVS IN THEIR VIDEOS PLAY HR/TR/GWF.
What to say?Most of the dailies of GF are straight bugged.Example "Crescendo".In tooltip it stays you cannot be contolled or interupted.It happens all the time.
Tooltips about Gfs are all wrong.All state more damage than actually do.Animation is bugged and slow.
Bottomline:GFs were,are and 99% will be in the dust cause the dev team do not pay attention to the class.Plain and simple.Simple facts.
yeah,same here.after months and months of playing my GF(20k gs) is only good for leadership and praying,and it looks like my GWF(16k) will be doing the same thing.Its great to be fighter in neverwinter.
How so? GWF will still be a powerhouse you just wont have Deep Gash unless you follow a different paragon...
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Deep Gash didnt move... YOu dont need to go a different path to get it, it was nerfed HARD - probably back inline where it should be but now alot of GWF builds are useless. I havnt tested mine in domination but im guessing itll be pretty pathetic.
That's a shame. I would have liked to see GFs become stronger, not their number one rivals get kicked in the teeth. I guess that's fair, but still.
You're a troll, and a bad one!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
GWF are ridiculously OP right now but no CW is asking for their nerf, most CW are only asking for our control powers to actually work as its our own defense. GF are the least of my problems as a CW. They are annoying and sometimes catch me off guard and kill me but not like a GWF that just power rolls over you.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I am seriously considering the t2 set exactly for the 12% run speed, combined with 4 Run speed utilities, that might bring us close to the 20% run speed mark, permanently.
It is sufficient to prevent CWs to dodge/run away, might allow GF to catch HRs if they are not careful etc etc.
Now, if the game could stop giving me 0 damage on TRs and GWFs I might be able to handle them properly. That's what's annoying me the most at the moment. 14 seconds cooldown at 3000 Rec to do 0 damage ? Come on, that's an encounter slot wasted.
The 2 most annoying classes to confront in domination at the moment are permasteaths & GWFs. GWFs will be nerfed, and TRs will follow soon, I think that will solve some of my major issues in pvp.
Now for pve and t2 dungeons : the encounters I use are totally different from the pvp set. Plaguefire to debuff everyone defense: 2 AOEs to lower trash mobs defense to increase overall team DPS (plaguefire again), marks to increase threat & lower defense again... When I'm there all mobs have 15% to 53% less defenses. That's less ArPen needed for everyone in the team thus a huge increase in efficiency for everyone. Add to that Into the Fray and suddenly everyone is spamming dailies. We do have a role : control the mobs (as in keep them near you, to help CW target their dailies) get improved damage when mobs are suddenly controlled.
So yeah we have lackluster DPS, less damage than CWs, less damage than GWF, but I consisently do more damage than TR (which are afaik shining only during bosses) but GFs do have a use in pve.
I would love to have comparable damage as top-dpser. That might simply be fixed by increasing all base damage of all GF weapons to be closer to what the other classes have (come on, t2 weapons GF receive 640 top damage compared to ca. 900 for CWs; that's already ca. 25% less)
The annoying things are : long animation locks on a lot of encounters, VT for example is a place where I love to fly. PK also is like that, the surgeon fight is a fight I usually spend flying through the air. That's fun, as long as it does not kill the rest of the team.
GF per se do not need fixing, it is a class that require a lot of thinking and dedication to compete, so yeah tanking in nwo is hard and not for the faint of heart
I'd like our tool set to work as planned, if our encounters and feats could simply work and be less buggy that would help too...
And to explain my last comments:
I was being sarcastic by making the implication that when our Devs set out to do one thing (nerf GWFs for example) they end up doing the opposite (make GWFs godly).
We wanted to address a couple of really big issues that we feel are impeding the Guardian's ability to tank in groups. While we have not finalized the specifics about the changes we are making, I wanted to share some of the major issues we are hitting with the changes we are working on.
- Threat Generation and Aggro Control - We know how frustrating it is to try and maintain threat with how much damage other classes can dish out, so we are making some key changes to allow the Guardian to both capitalize on that and generate substantially more threat in his own kit as well.
- Interaction between Blocking and healers - We are looking at several options to adjust Block that removes some of the binary "I am blocking and therefore don't really benefit from healing" gameplay that exists as well as the risk of Block being broken so rapidly under sustained fire.
- Group utility benefits - We wanted to provide some buffs that allow the Guardian to empower his teammates a bit as well as long as he is fulfilling his role correctly and maintaining threat on targets, and we have a couple ideas we are trying to allow the guardian to provide some pretty powerful increases to ally output without sacrificing the core of his role.
I don't currently have a timeline for when you guys will be able to see these things, but I wanted you guys to know we are taking your feedback and we are working on changes to improve Guardian gameplay and tanking in general.Thank you again for the continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
I am not really sure how you got those ideas or who of your team tested the GF thoroughly and came up with those problems. Threat Generation and Blocking/Healing not being an interesting enough synergy are the least of all GF problems.
In fact, I will go as far as saying that threat generation is no problem at all as long as other, more important problems are tackled.
The issues I ran into when playing my GF toon in a high-end group that is running Castle Never and such are quite different and I'll gladly take the time to explain.
1. The role as a tank
While playing the GF as the tank of the group you can not avoid comparing the GF to the other, more viable "tank" out there; the GWF. Where the GF suffers, especially in high-end situations, the GWF shines due to the class being superior in three key features:
-Crowd Control Immunity
Unstoppable enables the GWF to sustain a high amount of DPS and thus a high amount of threat on multiple monsters almost all the time. The GF needs to jump out of red circles frequently or duck behind his shield. This is emphasized in dungeons with a large amount of monsters with CC-Abilities (Dread Vault, Spell Plague) or in high-end content (Valindra, Castle Never) where the GF needs to spend most of his time trying to stay alive or dodging reds. Time spend this way is time spend NOT generating threat or dealing damage.
-Multi-Target-Capability
Cleave suffers from an incredibly small arc compared to the Wicked Strike of the GWF. This results in a fairly low sustained dps and threat generation once all key encounter-spells are on cooldown. In order to stay competitive, classes either need a strong AoE At-Will or hard hitting AoE-Encounters on a short cooldown. The GF lacks both. It makes it fairly hard to hit the maximum amount of possible targets aswell. Where the GWF will almost always hit up to five targets or more (Mighty Leap) it becomes a challenge on it's own to hit more than three targets as a GF.
-Sustained Tanking
Being "tanky" itself and being able to tank the damage of multiple monster for a prolonged time are two very different beasts altogether. I will flat out claim that the GWF is more capable of the latter compared to the GF. This is not only due to the regular boosts in temporary hitpoints from their Unstoppable ability, but also due to their high return of hitpoint via lifesteal (combined with their high DPS). This leaves the GF at the mercy of other members of the group to actually survive all the aggro it wants to generate.
2. Being a valuable part of a group
The next problem the GF as a class faces is its viability compared to the other classes. You don't pick a GF for pure DPS and neither do you pick it for the group utility. The most obvious answers to those two questions one asks when creating a group are the GWF (pure DPS, Tanking) and CW (pure DPS, Utility). So, how do you fix those problems?
Since you can not compete against pure DPS classes the solution would be a combination of "some DPS", "Tanking" and "Utility". The only class who can live solely on their Utility aspect would be the Cleric, so you have to have at least a medium amount of DPS on your own. Medium DPS and Tanking alone aren't sufficient either, as a GWF provides both at a way higher performance.
The strongest reason why you would bring a CW to a dungeon can be summed up with one spell; Arcane Singularity. It also is a very unique spell with almost no equivalent among current classed, except maybe the Come and Get it.
All it would take - in addition to the above mentioned things (Medium DPS, Tanking, Utility) - to make the GF a viable, even desirable class would be a spell similar to the Arcane Singularity. It would also break the dominance of the CW class. The tools for that are even in the game.
3. So, what would you change?
I'll briefly propose a couple of changes, fixes or buffs that would make the GF a more sought-after class. Some ideas are more fleshed-out than others, but in the end it's your job to come up with proper solutions to the problems.
-Cleave now hits targets in a 180° arc
-Marks on targets now last a fixed amount of time (they'll currently vanish as soon as the monster hits the GF)
-Additional benefits to group members hitting marked targets
-Enforced Threat now pulls affected targets towards the GF and taunts them, leaving them marked (smaller radius than Arcane Singularity)
-some form of short-term CC-Immunity that is tied to PvE only (GF seem to have no problems in PvP with that whatsoever)
-a flat out DPS increase by at least 20%
-an interesting mechanic that rewards blocking (you currently want to avoid blocking as much as possible)
-a strong self-Healing-over-Time ability (tied to a daily maybe?) or much more potent regeneration/lifesteal on order to better stay alive in PvE
-a potent buff to the DPS of the group or a series of minor DPS-buffs tied to various different spells
Together with an overall DPS increase as well as a better cleave I don't see the GF having any problems with threat generation at all. In fact I rarely struggle to maintain aggro right now, even with the current set of abilities. The above mentioned changes should be more than enough for that matter.
Regarding the interaction between Blocking and Healers I didn't notice any problems or concerns with that. But that might be due to me being used to play in a stable group of above-average performing guildmembers and only rarely dipping into the dangerous wilds called "PUGs".
Your analysis of the utility problem is spot-on, I'll give you that. A "poor-mans-singularity" as well as a DPS-Buff for the group should solve most of it though. It might even break the dominance of CW-heavy groups... A man can dream!
I think if you read the Devs response a little closer you will see that these issues you listed are exactly what he just said they were going to fix. Like EXACTLY.
Crowd control immunity, and sustained tanking ability looks like something they are going to address through an improved block mechanic. And for group utility they are looking into having GF abilities buff the group which would go a long way toward making them more valued in dungeons.
Do you want to take an extra CW, or a GF who can boost everyone's DPS (hopefully the buff from the GF will = more overall Group DPS than adding a CW would.
But that's PVE and nobody cares about PvE because I Don't, right?
I'm not going to list a bunch of PvP wants and needs here, I'm sure there will be a feedback thread created by a Dev when they are ready to start working on the GF.
I have to say, it's very nice to finally hear some developer feedback about this!
However I can't end without saying that whereas I understand the devs have been busy with Mod 3 and other concerns, leaving the class like this for so long without any word was pretty poor form.
I do remember them saying they recognized that GF had some problems a while ago, but waiting this long to address them, and pushing out a TON of content in the meantime, while not addressing the GF was a pretty big slap in the face.
A city to protect
innocents to save
"Why?" They ask "they hate you"
We're heroes it's what we do.
*patiently waiting on Paragon City*
also I like what gorakasul posted eairlyer about cleave hitting 180 dergress afterall the animation does look that way anyway.
What about if this class was givin two primariy abilitys like the main is constitution but if you made strenth a main too. Yes that would make this the only class with two main stats and one secondary but that seems to be the most easyest fix.
Princess Amber - DC
Shieldmaiden Amber - GF
Valkyrie Amber - GWF
Huntress Amber - HR
With defence hard cap at 48% and max 35k hp ,you don't want more aggro ,or else you will die in 20-25 secs.
Test:
After the Hrimmir death at FHG and while ads chasing you...you have all the aggro then.Stand still
You are dead.
"Threat Generation and Aggro Control - We know how frustrating it is to try and maintain threat with how much damage other classes can dish out, so we are making some key changes to allow the Guardian to both capitalize on that and generate substantially more threat in his own kit as well."
If the aggro is increased while GFs survivability remains the same ,you 'll actually deal more damage than good.
And when i say survivability i mean both passive(more tanky-more AC/DR ,some feature that gives limited CC immune) or active (better dps so number of adds is somehow under control-some are killed).
If you are going to increase aggro you have to increase survivability.otherwise GF cannot survive.Block has a limited degrees arc that is effective and brokes easily.If adds surround GF ,then Gf goes prone /stun untill he dies 4-5 secs later.
" Interaction between Blocking and healers - We are looking at several options to adjust Block that removes some of the binary "I am blocking and therefore don't really benefit from healing" gameplay that exists as well as the risk of Block being broken so rapidly under sustained fire."
This is an issue that none Gf ever mentioned.We do not have an issue with that.Cause we barely block-except bosses/minibosses and mostly try to stay out of big red.if it would be solved it would be great ,but really for most GFs this is not an urgent issue.
" Group utility benefits - We wanted to provide some buffs that allow the Guardian to empower his teammates a bit as well as long as he is fulfilling his role correctly and maintaining threat on targets, and we have a couple ideas we are trying to allow the guardian to provide some pretty powerful increases to ally output without sacrificing the core of his role."
It would be great.But you have to do it with out forcing GF to slot more than one encounter to do that.Most Gfs run with 2 self damage encounters and one team buff.Either it is Into the Fray or enforced Threat.And there is a reason for this.If a GF runs with two team buffing powers slotted ,his dps will go into abyss and you wil end up in the same problem:A Gf as buffbot ,while there are other classe buffbots that bring more into table-added dps or heal(CW/DC).Again Gfs will be underpowered/undesired.
The key to the meta game is CC.GWF shine cause he ignores CC of mobs/bosses.You need to add some CC immunity to the GF.
Mark could be reworked around that thesis.How much and how devs know much better than us.
And ofcourse GFG needs better dps.That can be achieved indirectly by just enhance/buff T1/t2 armor stats.Give him more power/recovery/arm pen/critical.Or just increase his power damage by 15-20% at least.
Unfortunately there is always to be a comparison with the GWF.Both are fighters ,both are tanky.
As others said,we understand you cannot make the Gf another GWf.GF can remain a hybrid-some dps some control some buffs) but in both three sectors his current performance is abysmal low compared to any class.So in the end his average utility to a group remains by far lower ,to any class.Even if this class shines in only one sector.
I mean even that a GF brings aggro control,some dps and some buffs ,the su of these contributions is by far less to a dungeon run of a group than to bring a class that will do just good any of the three.The situation is that bad.
Gf needs buffs in all three utilities in order to become gain viable.Needs more DPS contribution to a party,more aggro control,more buffs.
And ofcourse to remain alive while doing all this.
A simple fix is to increase the armorclass of plate resistance wise then the extra agro will be manageable with a dc healing them all the time.
Princess Amber - DC
Shieldmaiden Amber - GF
Valkyrie Amber - GWF
Huntress Amber - HR
Out of the many problems that I stated only 2-3 are really covered by what he said in his post:
-Encourage using block
-Group DPS buff
-Other form of utility
Everything else was quite different... I especially disagree on Threat Generation being a major problem for the GF. It is not! You can manage to maintain the threat even now and it'll be a walk in the park once GF damage, multi-target-capabilities and sustained tanking are fixed/buffed.
Your last bit is very right and important though. As the person who is mostly responsible for picking the classes when building groups in our guild, there is a fairly simple equation that I use:
Personal DPS + Group DPS Buff + Other Utilities >= CW DPS + CW Group Buffs + Arcane Singularity
If the class in question does not meet the requirements, I'll instead take a GWF or CW. Apart from those two only the DC meets the requirements when properly skilled/played/equipped.
The GF would be the perfect class to host a skill similar to the Arcane Singularity to fix the dependency on CWs...
This has to be one of the worst ideas... ever! A game where every group is forced to take a healing DC with it to manage to beat the content is a game that I will not play. It's good that a group does not necessarily bring both a pure tank and a pure healer to a dungeon. The DC is viable because he does not need to heal but is able to focus on personal DPS + group DPS buffs.
Hallelujah!
I think now is the perfect opportunity to put bitter feelings aside and start fresh. So I'd like to create a fresh, clean thread for people to put their suggestions so that the developers don't have to dig around hundreds of angry, butthurt messages to find some real, well-thought out and solid criticism.
The following rules should be respected:
1. Please make sure your suggestion takes into consideration multiple aspects of gameplay, both PvE and PvP and the leveling up experience. What you say has the potential to influence ALL Guardian Fighters, not just yourself.
2. If you disagree with someone's suggestions, be respectful in your disagreement. No name-calling or calling someone the infamous N word (no not that one) for posting a suggestion you disagree with.
3. This thread is for coming up with suggestions, NOT for flaming the developers. We're here to put the past behind us.
Also, if the moderators wish to combine this thread with an official thread created by the developers, then by all means do so.
***
So without further ado, let me begin.
I think we can disagree as much as we want, but the developers are probably gonna insist on these issues they cited, and we should focus on coming up with solutions that compromise between what we want and these points. I really believe GFs are ok (not ideal, but ok) in PvP, so I'd suggest the following changes to start setting things right without risking creating another overpowered class.
Concerning threat generation and aggro control:
-Increase the DPS of at-wills. This would create a minor increase in PvP performance while creating a more noticeable increase in PvE performance. At-wills make up a very small portion of PvP damage, but are essential to PvE.
-Increase the number of NPCs that require a tank in order to be defeated (but not by much!). I think the GF's role in many boss fights is understated and that they are actually very useful in many places. However, increasing their usefulness in the instances where they are least desirable would really help.
Concerning blocking/healing synergy
-Add new mechanics to the blocking ability, such as a buff to incoming heals while blocking that doesn't affect aggro. This would also have a minimum benefit in PvP while creating a noticeable difference in PvE. I also think this has a nice, realistic thematic touch, since your character is essentially resting behind his/her shield.
Concerning group utility benefits
-I think something creative is what the doctor ordered. How about yet another new mechanic, this time to the TAB ability? I think TAB can be used to create some benefits to other classes in addition to the current defense debuff. For example, a Focus Marked creature could take additional damage from a CW's AoE attacks (from being "distracted"), is more susceptible to a Rogue's attacks via combat advantage, is more vulnerable to a GWF's crowd control, etc etc. This adds an interesting and unique element of teamwork from what's considered currently the weakest TAB ability.
And, I think the most obvious solution is to increase the abilities of the PvE armor sets so that they match the utility and performance of the Knight Captain's and Timeless Hero sets.
***
All right then. Let's get this party started!
1. Players have much higher stats than was balanced for and therefore can "tank" a fair amount of damage
2. Following on from 1, this gives a Cleric a much larger window to heal players
3. Defense/Deflect enter Diminishing Returns at a relatively low level and before that level grant a large amount of % resistance
4. Lifesteal has become much more obtainable since module 2 and allows players to effectively heal themselves
5. Following on from 4, power and damage bonuses have become much more common as well, amplifying the effect of life steal even more
Thus other classes can have their HP levels swing from one extreme to the other quite a lot, but for the most part will not require someone to take some of that damage/threat off them.
Additionally, a Great Weapon Fighter can tank (in terms of taking damage) much better than a Guardian Fighter due to the large amount of Damage Resistance % Unstoppable grants. This class also has almost the same base damage resistance level, even when going down the Destroyer or Instigator path (more than a Guardian Fighter if going down Sentinel path).
One necessary change may be to reduce Damage Resistance Unstoppable grants to 7.5--15% based on Determination level, with the Sentinel capstone giving it the current 20--40%.
To address this, changes to Guardian Fighter alone will not make any difference, as they cannot compete with the damage output of the other classes and they are not part of the party anyway, so changing them would not change how the current party setup manages an instance.
There is both intra as well as inter class balance to be considered to make this class viable.
For one, non-tank classes probably should be more fragile when taking hits. This can be achieved in several ways:
A. Change Defense/Deflect scaling to grant much less % per point, but have few/no Diminishign Returns, so any class with high investment can sustain damage, but those who do not invest will not be able to run through several packs of spawns, herding them along and survive. - B. Change the Hitpoints available to classes. For example this could result in HR/CW having a lvl60 HP (at minimum CON roll) of 17k down from 22k, TR/DC staying where they are, GWF HP reduced by 1k, GF HP increased by 5k (for example by allowing maxHP rom STR as well). This is because most attacks deal 800+ damage anyway, so the current minute difference in HP between classes does not allow the GF to tank better than another class from a pure HP standpoint. - C. Change Lifesteal mechanics to have a cap in how much Hitpoints can be returned to the user for each attack. This cap could for example be 150% Weapon damage. This would make a cleric much more relevant and also having a tank taking some threat off the group much more useful, as players cannot instantly heal themselves to full by simply using a single encounter/daily power. - D. Classes other than GWF and GF receive a damage resistance debuff of 1% each time they take damage from a monster, capping at 15%. The stacks dissipate if no damage was taken for 10 seconds. This would discourage non-tank classes from charging ahead of the group and carelessly taking threat, as many players currently do to speed dungeon runs up (pulling half the dungeon, AoE damage killing everything, then pulling the 2nd half of the full dungeon)
Probably a combination of the above 4 options is required to address Inter class balance
Now for Intra Class balance
Knight's Valor ideally ought to split the damage taken by an ally after that ally's own damage resistance has been applied to the damage. This means that if a Legion Devil deals 2000 damage to Devoted Cleric, who has 25% damage resistance, 500 damage would taken off the attack, and the remaining 1500 split 750 each way between Devoted Cleric and Guardian Fighter. Currently, it appears to split the damage 1000+1000 and then apply damage resistance for the ally (and apparently much reduced damage resistance for the Guardian Fighter, potentially a buggy part here).
Guard meter should deplenish at 20% of the current rate per attack blocked with the maximum Guard loss cap remaining at its current level. When being healed and hitpoints are at maximum, healing should replenish Guard meter (at the same rate as attacks deplenish it, to not be too powerful). This would allow a Guardian Fighter to tank more actively and use Guard more regularly.
To not favor Conqueror spec too much, it may be necessary to tie these effects to tier 2 or tier 3 Tactician/Protector feats instead, or reduce Power from Reckless Attacker to +50% rather than +100%.
Distracting Shield is among the overlooked Feats, but is probably what a Guardian Fighter should do for the team. Potentially it would be a good idea to replace one of the existing class features or add 2 somewhat different tier 2/3 feats to Protector/Tactician to make the Guardian Fighter more team friendly. An example would be to have Enduring Warrior class feature turned into Reduce target damage and movespeed by 2/4/6% when blocking their attack for 10 seconds. Then have Paragon feats such as "Enduring Warrior now reduces target damage by an additional 1/2/3/4/5%" (Protector) and "Enduring Warrior now causes the target to let its guard down, increasing the damage they take by 1.5/3/4.5/6/7.5%" (Tactician)
In synergy with some of the inter class balance suggestions, this could allow the Guardian Fighter to indirectly protect the team from damage as well.
A rework of Feats such as Shielded Resurgence and Grit would be valued as well. Shielded Resurgence for example could make the Guardian Fighter immune to Control Effects after being struck by one for 0.5/1/1.5 seconds, Grit could have its cooldown reduced to 8 seconds.
For threat generation, I think the development team probably has a good idea of how best to manage it and I'll leave that to them.
These are just some initial thoughts.
But, I would like to say that:
I am PvE only, so I don't talk about PvP. I just don't want to become a support character. I don't mind having support powers, especially passive ones, but I want to feel like I'm in the game, rather than a cheerleader.
I also have no interest in staying hidden behind my shield. Shields are for active blocking, not hiding behind, imo. I want to continue to be a fighter, not a practice dummy for mobs. I want to turtle up when the time is right, then let out a mad burst of 'backatcha!'
I'd like to move faster.. to get in and draw aggro to myself and gather them together before they charge a less well-armored character. But unfortunately, GF's are slow, in and out of combat. That never made sense to me, although the heavier armor can explain it.
Independently of GF issues, I was thinking that they should consider making shift-key features only work during combat, and outside of combat, they could make it 'sprint' for all classes, without relation to stamina at all, or at half stamina usage. I mean, who doesn't find it cumbersome to go to the mailbox from the P.E. Shrine, and have to use stutter-teleport skills, or rolls, that sometimes make it worse than just jogging. And it's such a short distance to bother mounting.
Anyway, I think that might help everyone but it would certainly help GF's. There may be good reasons why it wouldn't be practical. (I guess the rooftop and treetop runners might not like the idea. Maybe a toggle of some sort?)
That's all I have. I like the idea about the added tab/mark functionality you expressed above.
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
- Threat Generation is not really an issue you have feats and other passive that help generate more threat. so i don't see any reason why this is a major problem for us GF. (we have other host of problem to be address about) if they really need to focus on this then increase our overall Main hand damage, its miles away from the other main hand.
- i would propose to change the tab ability into a totally different one, heck why not just put "into the fray" in our tab. thats much more better IMO
- Again with the Block, it's good that they know that our block gets easily broken under sustain fire(a stamina based block would be better, meaning your stamina gradually goes down the longer you hold your block rather than damage)
- I keep saying this, but deflect for a guardian fighter should be more in par with a rouge deflect mitigation 75% (your holding a shift for crying out loud)
- Tide of iron skill, this skill is good IMO it recovers 10% guard meter and reduce the damage mitigation of the opponet compared to shield slam that records 5% guard meter? then why not put a damage mitigation debuff on this as it's almost the same skill or at-will IMO
1. When a GF is blocking, he creates a cone area behind him, where any allies standing in said area benefits from substantially increased damage and CC resistance.
2. Increase the speed at which a GF can raise their shield.
3. Increase the speed at which a GF can turn while blocking, (compared to what it is now).
4. The Crushing Surge At-Will seems to suffer from this odd inability to break the 3-attack sequence, which often leaves you striking with your weapon an additional 1 or 2 times, even after you stopped clicking. Remove this chaining, and allow the player to break the sequence, (Cleave doesn't suffer from this, for comparison).
5. Add *something* to the GF's tab ability. Why couldn't a GF's special mark simply wipe all other team member's aggro from an enemy?
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Griffon's Wrath has the same issue sadly
I do not play my GF as a tank, so don't force me to lose a huge chunk of my burst damage just because you have no clue what you are even suggesting.