You can stack more GF (2, 3) and have similar control to having more CWs,
No you really just don't.
And as a CW I've tried everything with GFs I can, but fact is they cannot hold mass mob agro. We've even had 2 CWs gathering up and stacking mobs on the GF and he cannot pull them or hold them once we do start nuking again.
This is not uncommon. I can remember even back when in the 8k gear score range being wrecked repeatedly by mass mobs in dungeons because the GF just could not control them all, and I was counting on it.
So I had to learn how to run for my life in a circle strafe waiting on timers, just long enough to prone them or stun them with Shards and Steal Time, and rinse and repeat until I could build up a Daily. But the GFs could not save me in mass mob situations. That got worse the higher and higher we went.
GFs were excellent so long as you only had a few mobs, but once they start being thrown at you en mass, they can't do it anymore. You're not strong enough. You can take a pummeling like there's no tomorrow and "Tank" really well. But there's just not much in the old content that even bothers to pummel you.
And its still happening. I did not realize just how much better it was for a CW/DC team to Kite the Spellstorm end mobs than it is for a GF until I got put on Abolith Damage in later groups at the 12K range. The GF could not hold all the agro, they'd get a bunch of them on them, and then couldn't grab anymore so I'd have to keep Repel on my master tab to keep knocking the one or two frogs off the side that would keep coming after me and the GWF so he wouldn't get knocked off the platform by their stun.
The ones GF... could not keep off us even though we were going almost straight single target.
Later in the 12k-14 gs range and you'd get to fights like the Draco... it didn't matter how many mobs you stacked on the GF, he'd lose the agro anyway, and pretty soon it was just 3 CWs again having to mass nuke them.
Believe me... I've tried everything I can to make things work for GFs in party...
But they just DONT have mass mob agro control and that's all there is to it. The minute the CWs start nuking, thats about the end of the GF agro control. And I mean this goes all the way back to last summer, not just recently.
But they just DONT have mass mob agro control and that's all there is to it. The minute the CWs start nuking, thats about the end of the GF agro control. And I mean this goes all the way back to last summer, not just recently.
Whats REALLY funny about this from a GF perspective is even IF COULD get aggro - it would be absolutely pointless because his block meter would be absolutely shredded in about 2 seconds and even though he takes 20%-30% (on avg) less dmg than a CW does, he has no "escape" like blink or repel type things that help him survive so he wouldnt even WANT the aggro... His health would drop from 30k+ to about 5k in literally 3-4 seconds.
The only reason GWFs can semi-melee tank is because unstoppable is such a godly ability... I mean think about it. It gives 25+% DR, makes you immune to CC effects, is almost spammable AND heals you when you pop it....
GF gets what, block 7 hits then completely vulnerable for how long block takes to recover? like 8 seconds? Its just a joke
i feel that the difference is weapon damage: my cw has an orb that has 800 damage on it my DC has a symbol with 800 damage on it GWF has a 2H sword that has 900 damage on it and tr has two daggers equaling up to 800+ damage and the hr has a bow that is at 700-800 damage plus daggers that have an additional 400 or so. GF has a long sword that does something like 641 for the best GF weapon out there. it might not sound like much 150 or so but that number scaled is a big deal.
But really you shouldnt be blocking everything anyway just what can actually hurt you. Try moving out of the way maybe? lol plus tide of iron can give you back a small modicum of block that can negate one more hit just for hitting with it and its easy to combo it in with other attacks.
That's all we want. Even if this thread gets closed immediately after, we just want to hear from one person who has some idea what's going on, whether or not anything additional will be done about the Guardian Fighter for Module 3 (in terms of improvement, aside from the power change), or if not, if anything will be done in the near future.
That's all we want. Even if this thread gets closed immediately after, we just want to hear from one person who has some idea what's going on, whether or not anything additional will be done about the Guardian Fighter for Module 3 (in terms of improvement, aside from the power change), or if not, if anything will be done in the near future.
The biggest gripe about GF to me, is the fact that there is not a single set bonus worth of taking. Hell, not a single set provides any crit or arpen, not even the pvp sets... everything i can see is +369 defense... and defense is the least thing a GF needs. Sure, our average conqueror hue - hue GF has some power but the entire spec is just terrible, compared to the tactician spec, for example.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited April 2014
I still personally think they should MERGE GFs and GWFs into one single class called FIGHTER...
Then add GWF and GF as seperate trees. That way, no matter what happens the class of FIGHTER... will be able to adapt to any and all situations needed.
And Paladin could be a Paragon tree.
This I think is what REALLY needs to happen in the game. Rather than two seperate classes as GWF and GF, they should just be Fighters with the abillity to equip or specialize with either set of weapons and equipment. So no matter how much the game does or does not change, or even how the levels do... players who like the melee classes will be able to flex and adapt to whatever situation is needed.
I think this would go a long way to balancing this tree and making everyone's characters at least worthwhile. That way it will much more versatile as a class as a whole.
^ While I completely agree, they will never do this since it would be them admitting wrong/mistake on their part - companies never do this instead try and patch things with "fixes"
So what I would propose is a few "changes" that I think will make the class much much better in general and this is the direction I would take with the class:
Step 1)Move block to stamina bar - block drains stamina over time, taking damage and hits do not drain stamina faster - basically block is a function of time now. Feats/Boons/Gear boost the amount of time and recovery of stamina - just like every other class.
- This BALANCES block and makes it a much more useful tool when used properly.
Step 2) Change "Tab" to a version of Knights Valor that uses the current "block meter" (bare with me on this) is still called "guard meter" however this "guard" is in reference to your class role - guarding teammates.
It recharges over time, much like the current block meter does - and ALSO is diminished by the number of hits taken - basically the SAME equation in all aspects how block currently works. The ONLY difference? Its not how much you are blocking, its how much damage you are "splitting" with your teammates (like Knights Valor) I would suggest a 50/50 split here....
The additional "spin" is that for each teammate affected by "Guard" the guardian fighter gains bonuses.
Maybe something LIKE 5% DR/Deflect for each ally you are protecting. I would even suggest that any Threat generated by a teammate under the protection of Guard Meter also Splits their threat generated with that team member 50/50 as well - This helps in PVE because now a Guardian Fighter is truly the Tank Class
Now what this looks like: The guardian fighter sees his team is taking a beating. To assist with this - he presses his "tab" function - Now all allies within X range split damage taken 50/50 with the GF AND they split threat generated 50/50 as well. This helps the Guardian Fighter Alleviate the damage his team takes AND gives him the tools to get Threat under control himself. Since Gfs need some defensive boosts for this extra tanking they will do, The GF also gains additional defensive boosts based on the number of people he is assisting with Guard Meter - basically the more damage you split, the more thrteat you generate - the more agro you will have - the more damage you take. They need a tool to assist them with taking that damage.
As the GF splits damage with the team, the guard meter is draining - based upon number and size of attacks. Once the guard meter breaks, the effect ends and starts to recharge. The Guardian Figher most likely will have threat on some of the mobs and is blocking - based on time NOT number of hits and now bought his team time to react to the situation.
He Truly is the Guardian Fighter.
Now, you can retool Knights Valor for better purposes.
What does this accomplish?
1) Gives guardian Fighters a better tool for defending themselves - a time based block versus a damage based block.
- This has ALOT of useful implications in PVP that honestly balance the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of the ability.
2) Tab now gives significant PVE and PVP PARTY benefits as well as survival benefits to the GF.
3) Frees up an ability you can now retool for PVE purposes in enabling GFs to fill a better "tank" roll. Maybe this can be an AOE "slam" knock down ability that adds tremendous CC, maybe it can be an AOE taunt- whatever!
Those two fixes to the class would help balance it out significantly! This would be the avenue I would take with GFs.
When you take a step back and compare Mark/Tab and Block/Shift to all other classes you will see block is HORRIBLE in comparison....
Tab and block should be the primary functions of the GUARDIAN fighter - to GUARD.
So what I would propose is a few "changes" that I think will make the class much much better in general and this is the direction I would take with the class:
Step 1)Move block to stamina bar - block drains stamina over time, taking damage and hits do not drain stamina faster - basically block is a function of time now. Feats/Boons/Gear boost the amount of time and recovery of stamina - just like every other class.
- This BALANCES block and makes it a much more useful tool when used properly.
Step 2) Change "Tab" to a version of Knights Valor that uses the current "block meter" (bare with me on this) is still called "guard meter" however this "guard" is in reference to your class role - guarding teammates.
It recharges over time, much like the current block meter does - and ALSO is diminished by the number of hits taken - basically the SAME equation in all aspects how block currently works. The ONLY difference? Its not how much you are blocking, its how much damage you are "splitting" with your teammates (like Knights Valor) I would suggest a 50/50 split here....
The additional "spin" is that for each teammate affected by "Guard" the guardian fighter gains bonuses.
Maybe something LIKE 5% DR/Deflect for each ally you are protecting. I would even suggest that any Threat generated by a teammate under the protection of Guard Meter also Splits their threat generated with that team member 50/50 as well - This helps in PVE because now a Guardian Fighter is truly the Tank Class
Now what this looks like: The guardian fighter sees his team is taking a beating. To assist with this - he presses his "tab" function - Now all allies within X range split damage taken 50/50 with the GF AND they split threat generated 50/50 as well. This helps the Guardian Fighter Alleviate the damage his team takes AND gives him the tools to get Threat under control himself. Since Gfs need some defensive boosts for this extra tanking they will do, The GF also gains additional defensive boosts based on the number of people he is assisting with Guard Meter - basically the more damage you split, the more thrteat you generate - the more agro you will have - the more damage you take. They need a tool to assist them with taking that damage.
As the GF splits damage with the team, the guard meter is draining - based upon number and size of attacks. Once the guard meter breaks, the effect ends and starts to recharge. The Guardian Figher most likely will have threat on some of the mobs and is blocking - based on time NOT number of hits and now bought his team time to react to the situation.
He Truly is the Guardian Fighter.
Now, you can retool Knights Valor for better purposes.
What does this accomplish?
1) Gives guardian Fighters a better tool for defending themselves - a time based block versus a damage based block.
- This has ALOT of useful implications in PVP that honestly balance the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of the ability.
2) Tab now gives significant PVE and PVP PARTY benefits as well as survival benefits to the GF.
3) Frees up an ability you can now retool for PVE purposes in enabling GFs to fill a better "tank" roll. Maybe this can be an AOE "slam" knock down ability that adds tremendous CC, maybe it can be an AOE taunt- whatever!
Those two fixes to the class would help balance it out significantly! This would be the avenue I would take with GFs.
When you take a step back and compare Mark/Tab and Block/Shift to all other classes you will see block is HORRIBLE in comparison....
Tab and block should be the primary functions of the GUARDIAN fighter - to GUARD.
i feel that the difference is weapon damage: my cw has an orb that has 800 damage on it my DC has a symbol with 800 damage on it GWF has a 2H sword that has 900 damage on it and tr has two daggers equaling up to 800+ damage and the hr has a bow that is at 700-800 damage plus daggers that have an additional 400 or so. GF has a long sword that does something like 641 for the best GF weapon out there. it might not sound like much 150 or so but that number scaled is a big deal.
But really you shouldnt be blocking everything anyway just what can actually hurt you. Try moving out of the way maybe? lol plus tide of iron can give you back a small modicum of block that can negate one more hit just for hitting with it and its easy to combo it in with other attacks.
Just FYI - its pretty clear you have never played a GF. I would suggest you try playing one before posting feedback about how a GF should play.
I actually like the GF mark, better than the GWF mark. It does not wear off on getting hit, plus i can cast it from far away. It is a nifty little dmg addon, before using lunging strike or even before using Knight's challenge since KC doubles every debuff. Without mark i cannot really utilize anvil of doom properly anymore. So i'd rather keep the mark as it is and rework the blocking mechanic.
I actually like the GF mark, better than the GWF mark. It does not wear off on getting hit, plus i can cast it from far away. It is a nifty little dmg addon, before using lunging strike or even before using Knight's challenge since KC doubles every debuff. Without mark i cannot really utilize anvil of doom properly anymore. So i'd rather keep the mark as it is and rework the blocking mechanic.
The issue is the Mark ability doesnt fit into the Guardian Fighter roll all that well. The Guardian Fighter doesnt bring something unique and needed to the party. Mark? So everyone deals 8% more damage to that target... Thats not a HUGE deal IMO and doesnt address the real issue of the class.
If they did these changes, you wouldnt need to worry about damage output as much since now you would gain threat from the party your protecting.
Now a GF would actually bring something useful to the party in both PVP and PVE and feel like he can actually do his job of protecting the group.
If you focus on damage output thats going down the wrong path. They cant give GFs insane damage output otherwise whats the point in having squishy classes.
The tank class needs to protect the group - almost like the DC "Astral Shield" is a good group utility that is much needed in groups. This is a great synergy ability as well - The new Guardian Tab ability.
If they want to keep the "mark" component, turn Knights Valor into an ability that hits the target for <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> damage and applies a strong mark to the target - now its a damager AND a mark.
I dont see how mark would affect you using Anvil of Doom... Again looking from a damage perspective is not the right class - Fighters traditionally deal lously damage but protect the group - Knights Valor should have been our tab all along...
Heck maybe just turn Enforced Threat into a strong mark AOE applying ability instead of a soft mark.
Just FYI - its pretty clear you have never played a GF. I would suggest you try playing one before posting feedback about how a GF should play.
He's not wrong though. You ARE supposed to maneuver quite a bit as a GF... ironically. lol.
It's just that a lot of us have opted for threatening rush instead of tide of iron and prefer to restore block meter by occasionally right-clicking while blocking and of course using enforced taunt.
Gf's have been asking for a loooong time, and have been ignored. I don't think a new thread is going to change the devs mind. I don't think it is deliberate that they ignore our requests, i think they are just busy with other stuff, and we are so far down on thier to do list , that we are not really worth thier time right now. I think they believe it is better just to keep gf's in the dark than to admit that they are months away from even looking at us as a class. At least this way we can imagine they may be doing something.
I think the devs have the much bigger fish of "there are some really overpowered classes destroying the game for everyone but themselves" to fry before they start frying the "there are underpowered classes, too" fish.
Now a GF would actually bring something useful to the party in both PVP and PVE and feel like he can actually do his job of protecting the group.
If you focus on damage output thats going down the wrong path. They cant give GFs insane damage output otherwise whats the point in having squishy classes.
Well, i am experimenting with a GF DD-tactician spec. I just love the interrupt on lunging strike/anvil of doom. I combine the two skills with KC and (i am lvl 52 at the moment) i can crit up to 35k with AD. KC turns the 8% damage bonus into a 16% bonus. I combine it with combat superiority 10% (if i get hit first, that is) and another 10% dmg increase from a tactician feat (both are getting doubled by KC, too it seems) for the best possible burst dmg (in my case). 16% is a lot, to me. The GF is actually the hardest hitting single target class besides the TR, but it is pretty difficult to play with this setup. KC helps alot on bosses since my team takes half dmg and with fighter's recovery i can heal myself for 30k in one hit if i have to since my AP pool is always full, due to the final tactician feat combined with blocking and several other AP gain increasing feats. I could technically stay "unstoppable" the entire time, too. It also could be, because i have 24 dex (soon to be 25) and focus on arpen and have around 35% sometimes 40% arpen, but idk for sure. I have levelled the char up, only through pvp btw.
This was just to get you a picture of what i am doing with my GF, lol. About the tanking part, i can hold aggro anytime against anybody already, even without having to slot enhanced mark. The tactician tree has a feat for LS that adds threat, shield stab generates more threat i think a GF generates even more threat against marked targets but i am not sure. Finally, if i might lose aggro i can use KC plus LS and get aggro back immediatly.
I just wish, the guard meter would not deplete as fast as it currently does. Even if i slot the +15% meter passive, it does not seem to make that much of a difference, sadly.
Quick question... Does the change to the Power stat help Conqueror builds in any significant way? Like I'm not saying it makes them the best by any means, but does it at least help a bit?
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zhaofuoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 129Bounty Hunter
edited April 2014
They don't really care to say the least, all they can come up is. Yes we are aware that their is a problem. that's it the only real thing that i could think of is to do something that could really call their attention. i might self is not buying anymore zen for almost 4 months now, so that's 1 spending customer out.
Honestly the thing to do might just be to create more suggestion threads and inundate the preview shard with GF complaints/suggestions. They can't ignore a flooding of the forums.
Honestly the thing to do might just be to create more suggestion threads and inundate the preview shard with GF complaints/suggestions. They can't ignore a flooding of the forums.
They have been for a while now. Even if we started a campaign the mods would just shut it down. The devs are quite insulated. I like the combat here, but I will be honest when I say that i am chomping at the bit for ANY game that comes close, and has a dev team that shows even the slightest bit of respect for thier playerbase.
He's not wrong though. You ARE supposed to maneuver quite a bit as a GF... ironically. lol.
It's just that a lot of us have opted for threatening rush instead of tide of iron and prefer to restore block meter by occasionally right-clicking while blocking and of course using enforced taunt.
The reason I say that is because while you are supposed to maneuver alot - all classes besides a GWF have to do this) but you dont have any tools in this game to assist you.
GWFs can sprint out or just face tank and pop unstoppable.
TRs - roll
CWs - Blink
DCs - Blonk
HRs - Dodge
GFs? Not only are they not given a "dodge" mechanic, but also are not given any movement speed bonuses like the other classes so literally its the most immobile class in the game. What they DID give the GFs as their "Shift" ability is block - while you always have to position yourself appropriately, it seems to me the class design was that instead of dodging blows, the GF blocks the blows. THe problem is block is so bad compared to other classes mechanics and their "Tab" is just laughable...
Stealth versus "mark" (8% more dmg) I mean cmon....
Unstoppable versus "mark"
HR double encounter setup versus "mark"
You get the point...
Ontop of all of that, I would really like to stress what silverquick said, because in high end high GS gameplay CWs and GWFs will BLOW your threat generation out of the water its laughable...
GFs think they are "tanking" because their party is not wiping OR they are getting hit with alot of damage, the reality of this though is that
1) The CWs are are just uber controllers/dodgers so they are not getting hit, the GWFs facetank and survive anything because unstoppable is so OP and TRs stealth which makes them invulnerable essentially and GFs mistake this often for "they have the threat"
2) The other classes are dodging appropriately so again they are not taking damage while the GF is taking damage because they CANT dodge.
Its really hard in NW to actually have a true "tank" or to even say "I am tanking". Yes you might be the first guy to run in, yes you might be getting hit, but dont mistake that for you having "agro".
How do you know? Hold up your block for 2 seconds and if you still have block meter - your not tanking. Your block meter only sustains about 7 hits before it breaks. If you have 3-4 mobs on you it takes about 2 seconds for them to each hit you 2x, your guard will be gone and youll be running like a scared little girl because you haven o way to mitigate damage or keep yourself alive.
If you go back to my propositions about the GF class:
Knights Valor tab - assists with true "tanking" for the group as well as benefits in PVP substantially. A GF running into a fight now feels like he truly can protect the group in both PVE and PVP. Not only that it boosts your survivability AND threat generation.
Block on Stamina - Boost the ability to take damage from MANY targets at once. Like illustrated above, 3-4 targets attacking you and you have NO block within seconds. Stamina Guard meter means it can sustain UNLIMITED damage but for a fixed duration - drastically boosting the amount of time a GF can take damage from MULTIPLE targets while actually reducing the amount of time they can block damage from solo targets - again DRASTICALLY beneficial in both the PVP and PVE space.
Honestly the thing to do might just be to create more suggestion threads and inundate the preview shard with GF complaints/suggestions. They can't ignore a flooding of the forums.
We can only hope this will work, sometimes it does sometimes it doesnt...
I have noticed in the past the response from the DEVs is really surrounding the areas that interest them - so maybe if you post about PVP "balance" it will get seen rather than a GF targeted theme? I dont know....
We can only hope this will work, sometimes it does sometimes it doesnt...
I have noticed in the past the response from the DEVs is really surrounding the areas that interest them - so maybe if you post about PVP "balance" it will get seen rather than a GF targeted theme? I dont know....
The biggest drawback i have encountered with my GF in pvp is the block-meter depleting way too fast. I have a lvl 52 and a lvl 60 GF both with different setups and even if i slot the +15% guard and use one of the pvp set boni at the same time, all it takes is a couple of at-wills to drain my stamina entirely.
I have read your suggestion about making the actual guard - up time, time based just like unstoppable and i think the idea is great. It would balance the GF class for pve aswell as pvp, quite a bit.
only way to fix gf is to change it to paladin how game works atm there is only place for 4xcw+healer in game and after nerf of gwf and hr u will see even more 4xcw teams after mod 3
only way to gf class to stay in game is if they alow gf to take roll of cw so it should control ads and trash by tanking and with good tank gf in team we should not be forced to have cws in team then gf would be become more wanted and will have some use
anyone know how to use commands in the beta server to level up a character?
if thats even possible...
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zhaofuoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 129Bounty Hunter
edited April 2014
I guess they merge the 2 thread into one, making it sure that the other one will eventually die out due to it's title alone. they don't want any Dev finding out that the GF need help. MODS want to make sure GF is a dead class (sarcasm)
In addition I'd really like them to improve Swordmaster paragon to better fit the Guardian fighter and work uniquely to it but still remain functionally similar to GWF's swordmaster instead of being just a literal copy.
It doesnt serve any purpose for GF that Iron Vanguard doesnt do better in every aspect possible.
In addition I'd really like them to improve Swordmaster paragon to better fit the Guardian fighter and work uniquely to it but still remain functionally similar to GWF's swordmaster instead of being just a literal copy.
It doesnt serve any purpose for GF that Iron Vanguard doesnt do better in every aspect possible.
it is like this at gwf to swordmaster is inferior to iron vangourd in all ways, iron vangourd it is better for dps,cc,team utily by a lot
I have read your suggestion about making the actual guard - up time, time based just like unstoppable and i think the idea is great. It would balance the GF class for pve aswell as pvp, quite a bit.
Yeah you know, I didnt even think "Just like Unstoppable" but that makes sense...
So Unstoppable is a 4-8 second(from memory) duration so would you suggest a good balance for GFs would be 5 seconds at full stamina meter?
The reason being: GWFs meter is raised upon taking damage, the more damage they take the more the meter grows which means that over say a 15 second fight, potentially they could pop unstoppable 2-3 times (for a minimum of 8-12 seconds) or maybe even none at all depending on damage taken.
So maybe a GF gets 5 seconds so its more than a half unstoppable, not as quite as a full unstoppable, so the pro is it doesnt take damage to "charge" the con is it cant charge as quickly?
If it is 5 seconds a 15% boost would then be almost a full second more of blocking (.75 sec) - seams reasonable for a feat (maybe a slight buff there to 20% so its a full second) and now the GF Strength of say 22 (12% bonus) = .6 more seconds and the GF gear set of 30% more gives a substantial bonus of 1.5 seconds.
Add all that and youll be at 5 + bonus of (1.5+1+.6) = 8.1 seconds of total block IF built for having incredible Block....
Another idea could be that strength increases BASE block - which could then get multiplied by feats/gear
So 5 seconds base + 22 STR = 5.6 second BASE. NOW 20% + 30% = 8.4 seconds. I honestly like this better since STR is currently a crappy stat for GFs and Fighters SHOULD be STR focused.
Consider this in light of TR (stealth) bonuses and gear - this seems pretty comparable and fair to be frank... I believe TR stealth is a base of 5 seconds, they get feats and gear that can improve this ALOT along with encounters that completely refill this, so for a guardian fighter to have SIMILAR situation seems like it would not make it OP.
1) Bull Rush - Removes Knock Back effect, keeps knock down and lunge range. Additional points in this gives you more damage.
2) Anvil of Doom - Keep Base effect, additional points however enable the ability to be used at range - This makes the ability actually useful (like a weapon throw)
3) Griffons Wrath - Base CD should be reduced by about 2 seconds to make this a useful ability.
A Change for GWFs I would like to see is their Leap ability does an AOE stun in a smaller area around the GWF - Makes the ability actually useful - before you flame I would HIGHLY encourage this ability to be part of the swordmaster Paragon tree - meaning GFs could use this - as a "counter" or "equivalent" to "Front Line Surge" in the IV tree - this gives both trees now a "ranged" "CC".
My first character here was a GF. I walked away from that after the stalwart nerf. But, of all my toons the most requested by my friends is my GUARDIAN FIGHTER. I have no idea why.
(IMO) What Guardian Fighter needs, and hopefully all of us agree, is a tab ability equal to the tab ability of any other class. What I would suggest is this:
COMBAT MASTERY on tab. Yes, the same as "Arcane Mastery" used by CW tab. It would be a fourth encounter slot, and a slot that made the power slotted, uber. Instead of adding stacks of chill on certain powers, it would ad stacks of BLEED. The cc powers like knee breaker and frontline surge would ad stacks of slow. Yes, after getting proned/knee broke enough times your toon is gonna hobble around rather than run. Lunging strike on tab would pierce and prone not only the enemy it is aimed at, but any other enemy that is directly behind it (within 10 feet). Essentially a skewer. Anvil of doom on tab would be an aoe/aggro builder. It would damage all enemies within a 30 foot radius of the target enemy, briefly stun the target enemy, and mark all enemies within a 30 foot radius.
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No you really just don't.
And as a CW I've tried everything with GFs I can, but fact is they cannot hold mass mob agro. We've even had 2 CWs gathering up and stacking mobs on the GF and he cannot pull them or hold them once we do start nuking again.
This is not uncommon. I can remember even back when in the 8k gear score range being wrecked repeatedly by mass mobs in dungeons because the GF just could not control them all, and I was counting on it.
So I had to learn how to run for my life in a circle strafe waiting on timers, just long enough to prone them or stun them with Shards and Steal Time, and rinse and repeat until I could build up a Daily. But the GFs could not save me in mass mob situations. That got worse the higher and higher we went.
GFs were excellent so long as you only had a few mobs, but once they start being thrown at you en mass, they can't do it anymore. You're not strong enough. You can take a pummeling like there's no tomorrow and "Tank" really well. But there's just not much in the old content that even bothers to pummel you.
And its still happening. I did not realize just how much better it was for a CW/DC team to Kite the Spellstorm end mobs than it is for a GF until I got put on Abolith Damage in later groups at the 12K range. The GF could not hold all the agro, they'd get a bunch of them on them, and then couldn't grab anymore so I'd have to keep Repel on my master tab to keep knocking the one or two frogs off the side that would keep coming after me and the GWF so he wouldn't get knocked off the platform by their stun.
The ones GF... could not keep off us even though we were going almost straight single target.
Later in the 12k-14 gs range and you'd get to fights like the Draco... it didn't matter how many mobs you stacked on the GF, he'd lose the agro anyway, and pretty soon it was just 3 CWs again having to mass nuke them.
Believe me... I've tried everything I can to make things work for GFs in party...
But they just DONT have mass mob agro control and that's all there is to it. The minute the CWs start nuking, thats about the end of the GF agro control. And I mean this goes all the way back to last summer, not just recently.
Whats REALLY funny about this from a GF perspective is even IF COULD get aggro - it would be absolutely pointless because his block meter would be absolutely shredded in about 2 seconds and even though he takes 20%-30% (on avg) less dmg than a CW does, he has no "escape" like blink or repel type things that help him survive so he wouldnt even WANT the aggro... His health would drop from 30k+ to about 5k in literally 3-4 seconds.
The only reason GWFs can semi-melee tank is because unstoppable is such a godly ability... I mean think about it. It gives 25+% DR, makes you immune to CC effects, is almost spammable AND heals you when you pop it....
GF gets what, block 7 hits then completely vulnerable for how long block takes to recover? like 8 seconds? Its just a joke
But really you shouldnt be blocking everything anyway just what can actually hurt you. Try moving out of the way maybe? lol plus tide of iron can give you back a small modicum of block that can negate one more hit just for hitting with it and its easy to combo it in with other attacks.
The biggest gripe about GF to me, is the fact that there is not a single set bonus worth of taking. Hell, not a single set provides any crit or arpen, not even the pvp sets... everything i can see is +369 defense... and defense is the least thing a GF needs. Sure, our average conqueror hue - hue GF has some power but the entire spec is just terrible, compared to the tactician spec, for example.
Then add GWF and GF as seperate trees. That way, no matter what happens the class of FIGHTER... will be able to adapt to any and all situations needed.
And Paladin could be a Paragon tree.
This I think is what REALLY needs to happen in the game. Rather than two seperate classes as GWF and GF, they should just be Fighters with the abillity to equip or specialize with either set of weapons and equipment. So no matter how much the game does or does not change, or even how the levels do... players who like the melee classes will be able to flex and adapt to whatever situation is needed.
I think this would go a long way to balancing this tree and making everyone's characters at least worthwhile. That way it will much more versatile as a class as a whole.
So what I would propose is a few "changes" that I think will make the class much much better in general and this is the direction I would take with the class:
Step 1) Move block to stamina bar - block drains stamina over time, taking damage and hits do not drain stamina faster - basically block is a function of time now. Feats/Boons/Gear boost the amount of time and recovery of stamina - just like every other class.
- This BALANCES block and makes it a much more useful tool when used properly.
Step 2) Change "Tab" to a version of Knights Valor that uses the current "block meter" (bare with me on this) is still called "guard meter" however this "guard" is in reference to your class role - guarding teammates.
It recharges over time, much like the current block meter does - and ALSO is diminished by the number of hits taken - basically the SAME equation in all aspects how block currently works. The ONLY difference? Its not how much you are blocking, its how much damage you are "splitting" with your teammates (like Knights Valor) I would suggest a 50/50 split here....
The additional "spin" is that for each teammate affected by "Guard" the guardian fighter gains bonuses.
Maybe something LIKE 5% DR/Deflect for each ally you are protecting. I would even suggest that any Threat generated by a teammate under the protection of Guard Meter also Splits their threat generated with that team member 50/50 as well - This helps in PVE because now a Guardian Fighter is truly the Tank Class
Now what this looks like: The guardian fighter sees his team is taking a beating. To assist with this - he presses his "tab" function - Now all allies within X range split damage taken 50/50 with the GF AND they split threat generated 50/50 as well. This helps the Guardian Fighter Alleviate the damage his team takes AND gives him the tools to get Threat under control himself. Since Gfs need some defensive boosts for this extra tanking they will do, The GF also gains additional defensive boosts based on the number of people he is assisting with Guard Meter - basically the more damage you split, the more thrteat you generate - the more agro you will have - the more damage you take. They need a tool to assist them with taking that damage.
As the GF splits damage with the team, the guard meter is draining - based upon number and size of attacks. Once the guard meter breaks, the effect ends and starts to recharge. The Guardian Figher most likely will have threat on some of the mobs and is blocking - based on time NOT number of hits and now bought his team time to react to the situation.
He Truly is the Guardian Fighter.
Now, you can retool Knights Valor for better purposes.
What does this accomplish?
1) Gives guardian Fighters a better tool for defending themselves - a time based block versus a damage based block.
- This has ALOT of useful implications in PVP that honestly balance the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of the ability.
2) Tab now gives significant PVE and PVP PARTY benefits as well as survival benefits to the GF.
3) Frees up an ability you can now retool for PVE purposes in enabling GFs to fill a better "tank" roll. Maybe this can be an AOE "slam" knock down ability that adds tremendous CC, maybe it can be an AOE taunt- whatever!
Those two fixes to the class would help balance it out significantly! This would be the avenue I would take with GFs.
When you take a step back and compare Mark/Tab and Block/Shift to all other classes you will see block is HORRIBLE in comparison....
Tab and block should be the primary functions of the GUARDIAN fighter - to GUARD.
Step 1) Move block to stamina bar - block drains stamina over time, taking damage and hits do not drain stamina faster - basically block is a function of time now. Feats/Boons/Gear boost the amount of time and recovery of stamina - just like every other class.
- This BALANCES block and makes it a much more useful tool when used properly.
Step 2) Change "Tab" to a version of Knights Valor that uses the current "block meter" (bare with me on this) is still called "guard meter" however this "guard" is in reference to your class role - guarding teammates.
It recharges over time, much like the current block meter does - and ALSO is diminished by the number of hits taken - basically the SAME equation in all aspects how block currently works. The ONLY difference? Its not how much you are blocking, its how much damage you are "splitting" with your teammates (like Knights Valor) I would suggest a 50/50 split here....
The additional "spin" is that for each teammate affected by "Guard" the guardian fighter gains bonuses.
Maybe something LIKE 5% DR/Deflect for each ally you are protecting. I would even suggest that any Threat generated by a teammate under the protection of Guard Meter also Splits their threat generated with that team member 50/50 as well - This helps in PVE because now a Guardian Fighter is truly the Tank Class
Now what this looks like: The guardian fighter sees his team is taking a beating. To assist with this - he presses his "tab" function - Now all allies within X range split damage taken 50/50 with the GF AND they split threat generated 50/50 as well. This helps the Guardian Fighter Alleviate the damage his team takes AND gives him the tools to get Threat under control himself. Since Gfs need some defensive boosts for this extra tanking they will do, The GF also gains additional defensive boosts based on the number of people he is assisting with Guard Meter - basically the more damage you split, the more thrteat you generate - the more agro you will have - the more damage you take. They need a tool to assist them with taking that damage.
As the GF splits damage with the team, the guard meter is draining - based upon number and size of attacks. Once the guard meter breaks, the effect ends and starts to recharge. The Guardian Figher most likely will have threat on some of the mobs and is blocking - based on time NOT number of hits and now bought his team time to react to the situation.
He Truly is the Guardian Fighter.
Now, you can retool Knights Valor for better purposes.
What does this accomplish?
1) Gives guardian Fighters a better tool for defending themselves - a time based block versus a damage based block.
- This has ALOT of useful implications in PVP that honestly balance the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of the ability.
2) Tab now gives significant PVE and PVP PARTY benefits as well as survival benefits to the GF.
3) Frees up an ability you can now retool for PVE purposes in enabling GFs to fill a better "tank" roll. Maybe this can be an AOE "slam" knock down ability that adds tremendous CC, maybe it can be an AOE taunt- whatever!
Those two fixes to the class would help balance it out significantly! This would be the avenue I would take with GFs.
When you take a step back and compare Mark/Tab and Block/Shift to all other classes you will see block is HORRIBLE in comparison....
Tab and block should be the primary functions of the GUARDIAN fighter - to GUARD.
Just FYI - its pretty clear you have never played a GF. I would suggest you try playing one before posting feedback about how a GF should play.
The issue is the Mark ability doesnt fit into the Guardian Fighter roll all that well. The Guardian Fighter doesnt bring something unique and needed to the party. Mark? So everyone deals 8% more damage to that target... Thats not a HUGE deal IMO and doesnt address the real issue of the class.
If they did these changes, you wouldnt need to worry about damage output as much since now you would gain threat from the party your protecting.
Now a GF would actually bring something useful to the party in both PVP and PVE and feel like he can actually do his job of protecting the group.
If you focus on damage output thats going down the wrong path. They cant give GFs insane damage output otherwise whats the point in having squishy classes.
The tank class needs to protect the group - almost like the DC "Astral Shield" is a good group utility that is much needed in groups. This is a great synergy ability as well - The new Guardian Tab ability.
If they want to keep the "mark" component, turn Knights Valor into an ability that hits the target for <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> damage and applies a strong mark to the target - now its a damager AND a mark.
I dont see how mark would affect you using Anvil of Doom... Again looking from a damage perspective is not the right class - Fighters traditionally deal lously damage but protect the group - Knights Valor should have been our tab all along...
Heck maybe just turn Enforced Threat into a strong mark AOE applying ability instead of a soft mark.
He's not wrong though. You ARE supposed to maneuver quite a bit as a GF... ironically. lol.
It's just that a lot of us have opted for threatening rush instead of tide of iron and prefer to restore block meter by occasionally right-clicking while blocking and of course using enforced taunt.
Well, i am experimenting with a GF DD-tactician spec. I just love the interrupt on lunging strike/anvil of doom. I combine the two skills with KC and (i am lvl 52 at the moment) i can crit up to 35k with AD. KC turns the 8% damage bonus into a 16% bonus. I combine it with combat superiority 10% (if i get hit first, that is) and another 10% dmg increase from a tactician feat (both are getting doubled by KC, too it seems) for the best possible burst dmg (in my case). 16% is a lot, to me. The GF is actually the hardest hitting single target class besides the TR, but it is pretty difficult to play with this setup. KC helps alot on bosses since my team takes half dmg and with fighter's recovery i can heal myself for 30k in one hit if i have to since my AP pool is always full, due to the final tactician feat combined with blocking and several other AP gain increasing feats. I could technically stay "unstoppable" the entire time, too. It also could be, because i have 24 dex (soon to be 25) and focus on arpen and have around 35% sometimes 40% arpen, but idk for sure. I have levelled the char up, only through pvp btw.
This was just to get you a picture of what i am doing with my GF, lol. About the tanking part, i can hold aggro anytime against anybody already, even without having to slot enhanced mark. The tactician tree has a feat for LS that adds threat, shield stab generates more threat i think a GF generates even more threat against marked targets but i am not sure. Finally, if i might lose aggro i can use KC plus LS and get aggro back immediatly.
I just wish, the guard meter would not deplete as fast as it currently does. Even if i slot the +15% meter passive, it does not seem to make that much of a difference, sadly.
They have been for a while now. Even if we started a campaign the mods would just shut it down. The devs are quite insulated. I like the combat here, but I will be honest when I say that i am chomping at the bit for ANY game that comes close, and has a dev team that shows even the slightest bit of respect for thier playerbase.
The reason I say that is because while you are supposed to maneuver alot - all classes besides a GWF have to do this) but you dont have any tools in this game to assist you.
GWFs can sprint out or just face tank and pop unstoppable.
TRs - roll
CWs - Blink
DCs - Blonk
HRs - Dodge
GFs? Not only are they not given a "dodge" mechanic, but also are not given any movement speed bonuses like the other classes so literally its the most immobile class in the game. What they DID give the GFs as their "Shift" ability is block - while you always have to position yourself appropriately, it seems to me the class design was that instead of dodging blows, the GF blocks the blows. THe problem is block is so bad compared to other classes mechanics and their "Tab" is just laughable...
Stealth versus "mark" (8% more dmg) I mean cmon....
Unstoppable versus "mark"
HR double encounter setup versus "mark"
You get the point...
Ontop of all of that, I would really like to stress what silverquick said, because in high end high GS gameplay CWs and GWFs will BLOW your threat generation out of the water its laughable...
GFs think they are "tanking" because their party is not wiping OR they are getting hit with alot of damage, the reality of this though is that
1) The CWs are are just uber controllers/dodgers so they are not getting hit, the GWFs facetank and survive anything because unstoppable is so OP and TRs stealth which makes them invulnerable essentially and GFs mistake this often for "they have the threat"
2) The other classes are dodging appropriately so again they are not taking damage while the GF is taking damage because they CANT dodge.
Its really hard in NW to actually have a true "tank" or to even say "I am tanking". Yes you might be the first guy to run in, yes you might be getting hit, but dont mistake that for you having "agro".
How do you know? Hold up your block for 2 seconds and if you still have block meter - your not tanking. Your block meter only sustains about 7 hits before it breaks. If you have 3-4 mobs on you it takes about 2 seconds for them to each hit you 2x, your guard will be gone and youll be running like a scared little girl because you haven o way to mitigate damage or keep yourself alive.
If you go back to my propositions about the GF class:
Knights Valor tab - assists with true "tanking" for the group as well as benefits in PVP substantially. A GF running into a fight now feels like he truly can protect the group in both PVE and PVP. Not only that it boosts your survivability AND threat generation.
Block on Stamina - Boost the ability to take damage from MANY targets at once. Like illustrated above, 3-4 targets attacking you and you have NO block within seconds. Stamina Guard meter means it can sustain UNLIMITED damage but for a fixed duration - drastically boosting the amount of time a GF can take damage from MULTIPLE targets while actually reducing the amount of time they can block damage from solo targets - again DRASTICALLY beneficial in both the PVP and PVE space.
We can only hope this will work, sometimes it does sometimes it doesnt...
I have noticed in the past the response from the DEVs is really surrounding the areas that interest them - so maybe if you post about PVP "balance" it will get seen rather than a GF targeted theme? I dont know....
The biggest drawback i have encountered with my GF in pvp is the block-meter depleting way too fast. I have a lvl 52 and a lvl 60 GF both with different setups and even if i slot the +15% guard and use one of the pvp set boni at the same time, all it takes is a couple of at-wills to drain my stamina entirely.
I have read your suggestion about making the actual guard - up time, time based just like unstoppable and i think the idea is great. It would balance the GF class for pve aswell as pvp, quite a bit.
only way to gf class to stay in game is if they alow gf to take roll of cw so it should control ads and trash by tanking and with good tank gf in team we should not be forced to have cws in team then gf would be become more wanted and will have some use
if thats even possible...
It doesnt serve any purpose for GF that Iron Vanguard doesnt do better in every aspect possible.
it is like this at gwf to swordmaster is inferior to iron vangourd in all ways, iron vangourd it is better for dps,cc,team utily by a lot
Yeah you know, I didnt even think "Just like Unstoppable" but that makes sense...
So Unstoppable is a 4-8 second(from memory) duration so would you suggest a good balance for GFs would be 5 seconds at full stamina meter?
The reason being: GWFs meter is raised upon taking damage, the more damage they take the more the meter grows which means that over say a 15 second fight, potentially they could pop unstoppable 2-3 times (for a minimum of 8-12 seconds) or maybe even none at all depending on damage taken.
So maybe a GF gets 5 seconds so its more than a half unstoppable, not as quite as a full unstoppable, so the pro is it doesnt take damage to "charge" the con is it cant charge as quickly?
If it is 5 seconds a 15% boost would then be almost a full second more of blocking (.75 sec) - seams reasonable for a feat (maybe a slight buff there to 20% so its a full second) and now the GF Strength of say 22 (12% bonus) = .6 more seconds and the GF gear set of 30% more gives a substantial bonus of 1.5 seconds.
Add all that and youll be at 5 + bonus of (1.5+1+.6) = 8.1 seconds of total block IF built for having incredible Block....
Another idea could be that strength increases BASE block - which could then get multiplied by feats/gear
So 5 seconds base + 22 STR = 5.6 second BASE. NOW 20% + 30% = 8.4 seconds. I honestly like this better since STR is currently a crappy stat for GFs and Fighters SHOULD be STR focused.
Consider this in light of TR (stealth) bonuses and gear - this seems pretty comparable and fair to be frank... I believe TR stealth is a base of 5 seconds, they get feats and gear that can improve this ALOT along with encounters that completely refill this, so for a guardian fighter to have SIMILAR situation seems like it would not make it OP.
1) Bull Rush - Removes Knock Back effect, keeps knock down and lunge range. Additional points in this gives you more damage.
2) Anvil of Doom - Keep Base effect, additional points however enable the ability to be used at range - This makes the ability actually useful (like a weapon throw)
3) Griffons Wrath - Base CD should be reduced by about 2 seconds to make this a useful ability.
A Change for GWFs I would like to see is their Leap ability does an AOE stun in a smaller area around the GWF - Makes the ability actually useful - before you flame I would HIGHLY encourage this ability to be part of the swordmaster Paragon tree - meaning GFs could use this - as a "counter" or "equivalent" to "Front Line Surge" in the IV tree - this gives both trees now a "ranged" "CC".
(IMO) What Guardian Fighter needs, and hopefully all of us agree, is a tab ability equal to the tab ability of any other class. What I would suggest is this:
COMBAT MASTERY on tab. Yes, the same as "Arcane Mastery" used by CW tab. It would be a fourth encounter slot, and a slot that made the power slotted, uber. Instead of adding stacks of chill on certain powers, it would ad stacks of BLEED. The cc powers like knee breaker and frontline surge would ad stacks of slow. Yes, after getting proned/knee broke enough times your toon is gonna hobble around rather than run. Lunging strike on tab would pierce and prone not only the enemy it is aimed at, but any other enemy that is directly behind it (within 10 feet). Essentially a skewer. Anvil of doom on tab would be an aoe/aggro builder. It would damage all enemies within a 30 foot radius of the target enemy, briefly stun the target enemy, and mark all enemies within a 30 foot radius.
Jugger Conq GF
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