So... I just wanna add something. The developers made a really smart choice in removing the gear score bonus from Reckless Attacker. That was a huge reason why GFs are struggling, since they are constantly comparing themselves to people who are actually stronger than them, and being permitted into dungeons that they shouldn't have been allowed into.
But what I wanna know is... people do understand that right?
So... I just wanna add something. The developers made a really smart choice in removing the gear score bonus from Reckless Attacker. That was a huge reason why GFs are struggling, since they are constantly comparing themselves to people who are actually stronger than them, and being permitted into dungeons that they shouldn't have been allowed into.
But what I wanna know is... people do understand that right?
yeah this is great change now ppl might build more support/tank gf since conq will no longer have easy 4-5k gs
Something I would really love in both PvP and PvE is if blocking actually created a wall of LOS much like how a wall such as a pillar would. Ofcourse this would be a nightmare to actually do as a mechanic but if a HR is spamming split shot on my team on a cap for example and I block while standing between them and the CW as an example of someone on my team that CW will no longer take the damage as I have blocked all the arrows that would hit them. Just a thought of how the blocking could be reworked to give a little more team support.
yeah this is great change now ppl might build more support/tank gf since conq will no longer have easy 4-5k gs
Right. It'll also be good for Conqueror GFs too since they won't have to compare themselves to players in other classes who are stronger than them, which is really unfair. They will actually know how strong they are and will be able to build themselves up normally.
See how quick devs jumped into the cleric thread. 10 pages for us and nothing.
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zhaofuoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 129Bounty Hunter
edited April 2014
that's already an indication they dont ****ing care. excuse my language bult im tired of seeing how the DEVS keep ignoring the GF and instantly replied to any DC,HR, or GWF thread about a question and yet this has a 10 page long inquiries and concern.
Something I would really love in both PvP and PvE is if blocking actually created a wall of LOS much like how a wall such as a pillar would. Ofcourse this would be a nightmare to actually do as a mechanic but if a HR is spamming split shot on my team on a cap for example and I block while standing between them and the CW as an example of someone on my team that CW will no longer take the damage as I have blocked all the arrows that would hit them. Just a thought of how the blocking could be reworked to give a little more team support.
That is a WONDERFUL idea. I thought of that a long time ago, and was questioning if it worked like that or not and completely forgot about it.
Yes this needs to happen. THis would be useful in pve and pvp. And will make a GF with a shield have much more purpose in everything.It will be like a literal wall on the battlefield and opens lots of tactical advantages that only GF's have to contribute to thier team. Actual defensive advantages, where GWF's already provide offensive advantages.
They did good making Lunging Strike work in a cone now.
They just need to make the reverse for thier shield block. have them block in a cone behind them. So they can use the shield for not just themselves, but for the people they are supposed to be guarding.
That is a WONDERFUL idea. I thought of that a long time ago, and was questioning if it worked like that or not and completely forgot about it.
Yes this needs to happen. THis would be useful in pve and pvp. And will make a GF with a shield have much more purpose in everything.It will be like a literal wall on the battlefield and opens lots of tactical advantages that only GF's have to contribute to thier team. Actual defensive advantages, where GWF's already provide offensive advantages.
They did good making Lunging Strike work in a cone now.
They just need to make the reverse for thier shield block. have them block in a cone behind them. So they can use the shield for not just themselves, but for the people they are supposed to be guarding.
Doing this with block in its current form would be pointless... Block right now is SO pathetic. Its honestly because the initial DEVs thought they were being creative with a magic guard meter formula that diminished based on number of hits and damage taken, but failed to think of it in light of pvp... Only PVE. A better way for them to have done this was just put a flat damage # on each shield saying how much it can absorb. THen as you get better shields, you upgrade and can block more damage total - big hits SHOULD wipe our block meter quickly..
The BEST idea I have heard is what I repeated in this thread.
Block = stamina and time based rather than damage/hit based. This literally unbelievably fixed the skill and I am absolutely SHOCKED they havnt changed block yet.
Block = stamina and time based rather than damage/hit based. This literally unbelievably fixed the skill and I am absolutely SHOCKED they havnt changed block yet.
That's too OP and a stupid idea. The problem is that small DOT's hit it down so fast such as plaguefire (if I am not mistaken) will tick that block down so fast, block is currently one of the best against big burst hits that you anticipate coming at you but small hits will just destroy the shield PvP wise.
I'd rather be something to support my team mates than myself, that is infact what a tank should be all about. I love the idea of GF having the most knocks and prones and I don't like the way they allowed GWF to be the "pvp CC tank" that GF used to always be. I remember the time people would complain 24/7 about GF being too OP as it hit too high and knocked too much. I used to play GWF back in BETA when we were the "worst class" in the game however I could still beat rogues in a 1v1 at the time, then they buffed us GWF's in beta and nerfed the rogues and from there GWF's have seen a power creep much more than other classes. Ofcourse rogues stealth is currently pretty broke but I certainly wouldn't say TR damage is at all broken anymore.
You just got to think in terms of what a supportive CC tank actually needs to be doing in team PvP. We should be getting people off our teammates especially of our cleric, we should be managing to take damage that would hit our team if we didn't intercept it and we should be able to start ganks leading our team into the fight and picking targets off. I don't know if you would agree with those things, I feel that they need to make the game tactical in the way you need your team to survive and I think they are doing this well with how things currently are. However with GF I would like to see more of this thing, I don't actually think GF is at all underpowered in terms of PvP in comparison to PvE due to it's knocks that it has but the problem is GWF can do the same / similar sort of thing because they got given GF's paragon tree.
I'd just like to see GF as a sort of "leadership" class leading their team into battle and dictating the battle. I don't know if you ever played GW1 PvP but it was always a similar thing in that game with how warriors were used.
i 'd like to post what i feel many forumers get it wrong.purely subjective but that's my opinion:
All the posters post about the role of a "tank" ,how can we improve the "tank role".
Quick question?Did ever cryptic referred to the Gf class as a "tank"?
Did ever cryptic used the term as the 90% of the forumers used it?WoW style?
BIG FAT NO.
In NW GF based to its given powers /encounters is a hybrid class.Striker,Defender,Controller.(designations used by the game for companions so i think we must stick to them)
Gf is little of everything.it is a versatile class.And i think that Gf must be played utilizing both three roles in a preferable percentage.Going full dps you ll never reach GWFs.Going full defender build/gamestyle you will fail in late t2/CN/VT combat.Going full support you ll never surpass CW/DC utility.
Since defence has a hard cap i think a Gf can be improved in the two other sectors:DPS and control.
Conq path is more oriented to striker.Defender to defender.And tactician to striker/controller.
NW action combat cannot be tanked in a WoW case.Is is a fast action game.FAST action game.
fast and "tank" are opposite meanings.
So in order to make propositions to improve the class we must realize the frame,the gameplay in which the class was designed to perform.
generalizations about "cryptic to change the dungeons design " are complete unrealistic.Common guys.Do you know that to do this a company must redesign the whole game and then the rest 5 classes?Do you realize that?it is out of question.
yet many seriously propose that in the forums.
If ever a dev would read these threads when his eye would reach such a proposal would skip to the next post.
We need propositions about Gf that take into account the game based mechanics.
Which are:
Big Aoe easy to dodge but completely lethal to stay in.Lots and lots of adds with huge hp pool.Spawnable adds at certain percentage of boss fights.Adds that appear and hit from different directions.Special abilities that freeze and stun.(FH golems etc)
in that frame any change to increase the GF "tankiness" will barely solve the problem.Still the Gf will not be able to "tank" a la WOW style as many former WOWers suggest.
NW is a different game from WoW.
What i see realistically that can be done is to increase the speed of a GF so in a frame/gameplay of a FAST ACTION MMO as NW ,to be able to perform.
First of all GF as a class in 5-6% slower than any other class.Why?I see that if u use 3 D6 in utility slots you get the same speed the other classes have.This must change.No movement penalty for GF so to be able to follow combat as the rest of the classes are.
All animations of Gf to speed up a little.i want to see a dev in pk in first fight against the surgeon to use enforced threat.With the first attempt.Impossible.In a middle of mobs you get interrupted all the time.Yet GF must be in middle of mobs.So all animations to get an increase.
Block hp pool to get a 25-35% increase.
Mark 8% dr to raise up to 15-20%.
Enforced threat to have a range radius and not a target cup.
Weapon damage of all GF longswords to get a 15-20% increase.
Feats that proc(steel blitz) to proc more often.
Into the fray hp/action bonus can be boosted.
itemization of Gfs is ancient and obsolete.No arm pen etc.Bonuses that make no good at all(more defence in fom/FD sets).
GF needs more damage more arm pen.
Constitution must give more hp bonus to GFs.
Steel defence must start counting from the finish of the daily animation.Not from the start.So actually to be 5 secs.right now even if you have it 5 secs in reality it is 3.
Villain/s menace duration must be bigger.1-2 secs more.
Anvil of doom/GW thier recharge times to be reduced.
Anvil of doom can do double damage from 40%.if a boss is in 25% well the party will kill him anyways.
These are the most obvious shortcomings of the class.
What i see realistically that can be done is to increase the speed of a GF so in a frame/gameplay of a FAST ACTION MMO as NW ,to be able to perform.
First of all GF as a class in 5-6% slower than any other class.Why?I see that if u use 3 D6 in utility slots you get the same speed the other classes have.This must change.No movement penalty for GF so to be able to follow combat as the rest of the classes are.
All animations of Gf to speed up a little.i want to see a dev in pk in first fight against the surgeon to use enforced threat.With the first attempt.Impossible.In a middle of mobs you get interrupted all the time.Yet GF must be in middle of mobs.So all animations to get an increase.
Block hp pool to get a 25-35% increase.
Mark 8% dr to raise up to 15-20%.
Enforced threat to have a range radius and not a target cup.
Weapon damage of all GF longswords to get a 15-20% increase.
Feats that proc(steel blitz) to proc more often.
Into the fray hp/action bonus can be boosted.
itemization of Gfs is ancient and obsolete.No arm pen etc.Bonuses that make no good at all(more defence in fom/FD sets).
GF needs more damage more arm pen.
Constitution must give more hp bonus to GFs.
Steel defence must start counting from the finish of the daily animation.Not from the start.So actually to be 5 secs.right now even if you have it 5 secs in reality it is 3.
Villain/s menace duration must be bigger.1-2 secs more.
Anvil of doom/GW thier recharge times to be reduced.
Anvil of doom can do double damage from 40%.if a boss is in 25% well the party will kill him anyways.
These are the most obvious shortcomings of the class.
In pvp , i actually think the only thing gf really needs is harder hitting at wills. quite a bit harder actually.
Your missing the point of the guardian fighter if you keep focusing in him putting out more damage.
Having a TR/GF/GWF myself I can tell you the issue isnt damage. In fact a PVP GF will out DPS a PVP GWF, the issue in pvp is that its based on burst damage NOT DPS. So my GF has higher DPS than my GWF but my GWF can almost 1 combo kill someone so he doesnt need DPS.
THe biggest issue between GWF and GFs is that unstoppable BLOWS block out of the water in comparison and sprint is MUCH better than mark as well.
Dont fool yourself, The class mechanic for guardian fighters IS block even tho its on the shift key. Its too clunky and doesnt fit well to have block be on tab.
So its not mark versus unstoppable and sprint versus block. Its Block versus unstoppable and mark versus sprint.
I disagree that GFs should be as mobile as all the other classes. I mean you are full plate wearing with a shield. What they NEED to be though is very tanky.
Right now GWFs are more tanky than GFs, the nature of how block works is just so crappy... mrhinkypunk is right and wrong in that DOTs drop your guard meter, guard meter is a weird function where its a certain damage cap that each hit gets capped at.
As long as the damage is at that cap, it will take roughly 7 hits at that damage cap (call it 1500) for block to be fully shredded.
So if you would have taken 20k damage, it only counts for 1500 on the block meter, if you only take 100 damage it doesnt do the same as a 1500 hit on block (itll do like half that).
Im using those numbers as examples. I really think putting block to a pure time base/stamina will fix block. I would put a "reserve" on it so you need like 30% stamina meter to activate block, but that 30% can be used if holding it - if that makes sense.
So having a small sliver of block doesnt mean you can spam it - and in fact they put a small ICD on spamming block to prevent that in the first place.
TO mrhinkypunk's second point - hence why I was suggesting the TAB function of GFs should be a re-work of Knights Valor - absord/split damage with your team.
Fighter classes were never good damage classes. People keep focusing on damage.
If you want to take that path, suggest then that STR/CON/DEX would be the same for GFs as it is for GWFs.
GF currently:
STR - damage/guard
CON - HP
DEX - ARP/deflect
On average GFs have liek 15% crit or so. doing this would push them up to other classes so with 22 DEX youll now be at 27% crit - definitely good enough for a vorpal build.
Right now the status of GF:
- Immobile
- Not tanky/hard to kill at all.... Block is gone in 2 seconds and no mitigation/dodge abilities.
- Low Crit
GFs can get some of the highest ARP in the game currently and have some of the hardest hitting abilities due to Conq path doubling power. The problem is people wouldnt know because crit is so low it doesnt matter and they are so squishy as a class because of block/movement speed issues that nobody even cares about GFs.
Well they ignored our questions in the Q&A, but to their credit, they did answer the all important....how many pizza's have been eaten in the course of the development. So it is safe to say that our concerns are somewhere below pizza consumption rates.
Well they ignored our questions in the Q&A, but to their credit, they did answer the all important....how many pizza's have been eaten in the course of the development. So it is safe to say that our concerns are somewhere below pizza consumption rates.
... =[
I'm watching it now. One of the guys talking is the guy responsible for player powers and balanced and he said GWFs and HRs were gonna keep him busy for a while. Hopefully there was SOMEONE who brought it up. AntMonster said they were gonna spend a long time on it a while ago. But that WAS a while ago.
I'm watching it now. One of the guys talking is the guy responsible for player powers and balanced and he said GWFs and HRs were gonna keep him busy for a while. Hopefully there was SOMEONE who brought it up. AntMonster said they were gonna spend a long time on it a while ago. But that WAS a while ago.
Yup, unfortunately... Its really funny how all this has panned out. If a patch came out and it was a DC power that was bugged making it OP -> Patched almost instantly.
NEED fixing: TR power OP? "ehhhh, well address it in the future" look at the "perma" build and how they claimed they were looking into stealth...... GF? no response CW? like ARP not working on most skills.... "we just dont have time for this right now"
Dont really need fixing: GWF? "Were really working on the GWF right now" HR? "Working on it"
Help me understand that.... GWFs/HRs/TRs are arguable the most OP classes right now... and instead of fixing/focusing on the other classes, they look at the HR/GWF?
I get how they want some balance there... But jeez.... the CW/ARP fix should have been top priority LONG ago. TR stealth should have been worked on and then GF balance should have been worked on....
I wonder if I can find that old thread where they discussed the GF tab change where they announced mark = perma mark... (btw this was the laziest way out on that one)
I know people want to hear about suggestions for big changes, but I have noticed something small that devs should hit:
I think the GF needs another good face tanking set bonus besides +25% blocking meter.
As I spoke about in this thread before I play with a group of friends, and we have gotten to the point where all T2s are on farm status and we are eyeing T2.5. I play with the same group constantly. The group is now GF, TR, CW, GWF, DC. GWF was formerly a HR, but he rerolled to GWF. Completely PvE focused. We have been playing since January. None of us were boot strapped by a guild. Instead we formed a guild and played just between ourselves going through the content as it was intended.
For armor sets I own all the T1 sets, a full T2 grand regent set, a full T2 Timeless set, and I have 2 pieces of Indomitable Champion. (I also have 2 soul forged enchantments to enable the use of two armor sets, and if it matters the 2.5 ancient weapon/shield set).
The reason I list all this stuff is because here is the choices I make for armor use, and I have farmed them enough now that the choices are clear and stable:
FC) KC for boss 1,2, and 3.
SP) KC for boss 1, 2 pieces of Grand Regent + 2 pieces of Indomitable for boss 2, KC for boss 3
Caverns) 2 pieces of Grand Regent + 2 pieces of Indomitable for bosses 1 and 2, KC for boss 3
Temple) KC for boss 1, 2, and 3.
You notice, that of the T2s dungeons, there are three encounters I don't use a set on? They are Caverns of Karr boss 1 and 2 and Spellplagued boss 2. Those encounters are the ones where my role is to keep agro on named + as much painful trash as possible while needing as little healing as possible, and doing so on those encounters is not a trivial exercise. I suppose if I was going to pick the set bonus ideal in that scenario it would be +25% guard meter, but I haven't been excited enough by that to chase it down.
I think the devs should take another stab at a "be as indestructible as possible" set bonus. Since "being indestructible as possible" is something most people do not feel is OP in Neverwinter it would be nice if they got a little creative and really made me say, "Wow I want that!" +25% guard meter doesn't wow me.
Since I made the list of what I wear, I want to also note:I am not sure how the dominance of KC will play out after the change. IMO KC was OP in the sense that it stood out as unquestionably the best thing to have as a set bonus, but the question is when you have played your entire Neverwinter career relying on the OP set bonus what do you do when it gets nerfed?
I also think it would be nice if at some point in the future you released a T2 version of the nerfed KC, where the buff also effected the GF that proc'd it. That would be a decent, but not OP, T2 set bonus.
Here is the GWF T2 Avatar of War set bonus:
Set 4: Your Encounter powers grant Onslaught. When Onslaught reaches 3 stacks you gain 1350 Recovery and Power. Onslaught lasts for 10 seconds and is refreshed each time you strike a foe with an Encounter power.
Here is the GF T2 Timeless Hero set bonus:
Set 4: Your Encounter powers grant 450 Critical Strike for 6 seconds. This effect stacks up to 3 times.
Here is my take:
1) The set bonuses address very similar roles for their respective classes.
2) The GWF gains 1350 power which is now a better bonus than the GF 1350 Critical Strike bonus after power changes.
3) The GWF gains a perk of 1350 Recovery for a total of 2700 stats.
4) Both players can keep their bonus going indefinately provided they keep using encounters on foes.
5) The GF has a perk that their encounters don't have to hit a foe.
6) The GWF has 10 seconds to refresh their stacks. The GF has 6 seconds.
So apparently, having to use your encounter power on foes means you get 10 seconds instead of 6, 2700 points of stats instead of 1350, and power instead of crit (now better).
Worth? Can I swap my Timeless set bonus for the Avatar of War set bonus? Pretty please? Cause not worth...
You all probably think it is the power that I am jealous of? No! I am jealous of the 10 seconds. I have been playing with Timeless, and while I can rotate 3 encounters just perfectly to keep the crit going indefinately with a pattern of Lunging Strike -> Encounter 1 -> Lunging Strike -> Encounter 2 -> (repeat), it is a bit restrictive to play like this. You have to sacrifice the value of spamming encounters as they refresh to keep them rotating to carry the time between Lunging Strikes.
I suspect I know why we don't get 10 seconds. It is because since Timeless doesn't require you to hit an opponent, something like into the fray + a ton of Recovery could theoretically get you down to the point where you keep 3 stacks forever, but... that would take so much recovery that you would lose any advantage in the first place!
IMO
GF Timeless Hero should get their own "perk stat" since it takes a bit of sacrifice to keep that 6 second window rotating forever. You cannot use encounters as soon as they come up to do it. Having more time on Avatar of War compensates for having to use encounters on foes, since that is a mechanical issue. However, that doesn't justify a difference in total stats (or power) or overall gain in fully stacked bonus when both sets are fully charged.
Why I am here though I acknowledge that the TR Master Assassin, "Set 4: Gain 1350 Power for 6 seconds after using a Daily Power," has an even more unfavorable comparison to Avatar of War. Continuous 1350 Power + Recover vs 6 seconds of 1350 power after a daily? LoL.
Wiping away the cobwebs on this thread. Maybe a Dev will notice if we dust the shelves a little.
hey take heart my friend! They are REALLY focusing in on HRs and GWFs right now - cause it was needed right? LOL!!!!
While GFs will sit back and cry in this next module over no real changes, HRs will be abusing the pvp gear that heals you 2% of MAX HP each time you deflect...
Smart HRs will run over 40% deflect and out heal any at will spamming.... Ive tested this against my GWF Sent Perf Vorp yadda yadda.... its stupid. Use my encoutner combo - got him to ~70%, at willed him and it brought him back to over 90% HP. Its like having Emblem active almost 24/7...
How about GFs new 4pc is: Heals you 2% of Max HP each time you block an attack. that sounds balanced right? LOL!
In all seriousness:
GFs need some love... I, for one, am NOT someone trying to promote "uber leet deeps" for the GF in making them fair...
The problem is TWO fold:
1) Nobody wants them in PVE
2) Nobody wants them in PVP
Why?
1) No tank needed, people prefer CC/DPS over a tank, GFs dont have an easy time getting agro AND its not needed.
2) They dont really perform any roll... In PVP its all about the "stalemate" or "backcapper" as its commonly called. The best two classes in 1v1s are HRs and TRs with GWFs close behind.
A TR will tear the GF up hands down any day of the week, just because of how Flurry works and how block works. Ontop of that, what does the GF bring to the table in PVP? Two prones, and a "mark" that debuffs? That has no group synergy really...
So to solve both problems:
1) Give GFs something they can bring to the table to make clearing/killing easier - without making content easier (aka in the form of MORE DEEPS!!)
2) Give GFs something they can not only use to make themselves more viable for 1v1 "node holding" but also some group utility they can use to keep other players alive in PVP.
Both of these can be solved with TWO changes.
1) Block is a fixed stamina/time duration - removes TRs massive advantage over GFs, gives GFs tools to properly time and survive against classes when used properly.
2) Fix "Tab" so it actually has a good "guardian" ability. Guardian Fighters roll is supposed to revolve around "contain foes and keep them away from your friends" thats what the 4e wiki says anyways - LOL!
So TO ME it seems this can easily be done by swapping out Knights Valor for Tab. There are unique ways of doing this but overall the effect is:
It makes it difficult for anyone to kill a teammate while a GF has this active forcing them to focus the GF.
It just seems to me this fill the roll of a guardian fighter.
THis would bring alot of value in PVE and PVP as it would be much easier to keep players alive without having to worry about "agro"
Well another game with combat close to this is about to go live. As far as GF's it may be months or longer before they even get a look. How long has it taken them to adjust HR and GWF, and they are still not finished.They actually had to revert some changes on HR so they could buy themselves more time. We know CW is next, as well as rogue stealth. These have been mentioned by the devs, but nothing for the GF.
Well I went ahead and bought the other game I was thinking about. After a lot of thought I can't see them making any significant changes to GF for months or longer. If it were even on the radar , they would have said something by now. Ill more than likely keep doing pvp dailies until the new game goes live, but if I haven't heard any news by then, i'll slip on out. I know myself well enough to say that once gone, there is a very slim chance i'll return.
I really like the combat system here. but it just isn't enough to prop the game up from it's many shortcomings.
The only thing GF's have ever gotten since the games release was some nerfs to some set bonuses. A changed tab ability and a buff to lunging strike.
They are looong over due for something.
And for godsake. Do something about swordmaster. Just underperforms in every way.
I got my GF stuck as swordmaster, hoping they'd adjust it to fit it better for them. Otherwise I'd just stayed as iron vanguard. Iron vanguard is better in every single situation and every way possible than swordmaster. Ever since the change, I've not barely played my GF because its just performing so much worse no matter what I do.
schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited April 2014
My pro tip is use it as i use it, to craft leadership and pray with full geared 3 purple artifacts & formorian set and all boons .
Also after IWD hit live i will use my GWF to craft leadership and pray with 18k GS 5 epic companions 1 Legend artifact & 2 90 purple arti +formorian fable sett 3 epic mount perfect enchants .
Figthers sux in IWD . I think the uthgard barbarians laughing on us so called fighters.
Can a GF use a bilethorn very well? No. Because we attack too slow to really get much benefit from it along with our low weapon damage.
All of these weapon enchants work amazing with other classes because of high weapon damage and or rapid attacks - or BOTH!
Even Vorpal GFs get the short end because at best we can get about 20-25% crit chance while alot of other classes can easily push 40%+ in PVP! Thats almost DOUBLE the effectiveness of the enchant!
Well... If weapon enchants were based on the end DAMAGE not the weapon damage - this would actually do QUITE a bit to balance classes out.....
They killed this class when they nerfed Stalwart. It made GF's actually matter. When this was nerfed they should have given GFs something else. Or maybe only slightly nerf the set and make it t2. Once GWFs got iron vanguard it was lights out. NWO tries to be an mmo that fall completely outside the successful pattern of other mmos. This mold breaking hasnt resulted in something that redefines the genre in a good way. People are used to the normal roles, control, dps, heals, tank. You come here and roll a gf expecting to be a tank and find out that tanks are essentially useless here. It hurts the game to not be able to attract or keep the mmo playerbase who enjoys playing tanks.
Comments
But what I wanna know is... people do understand that right?
yeah this is great change now ppl might build more support/tank gf since conq will no longer have easy 4-5k gs
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's
Right. It'll also be good for Conqueror GFs too since they won't have to compare themselves to players in other classes who are stronger than them, which is really unfair. They will actually know how strong they are and will be able to build themselves up normally.
Bull****
That is a WONDERFUL idea. I thought of that a long time ago, and was questioning if it worked like that or not and completely forgot about it.
Yes this needs to happen. THis would be useful in pve and pvp. And will make a GF with a shield have much more purpose in everything.It will be like a literal wall on the battlefield and opens lots of tactical advantages that only GF's have to contribute to thier team. Actual defensive advantages, where GWF's already provide offensive advantages.
They did good making Lunging Strike work in a cone now.
They just need to make the reverse for thier shield block. have them block in a cone behind them. So they can use the shield for not just themselves, but for the people they are supposed to be guarding.
Doing this with block in its current form would be pointless... Block right now is SO pathetic. Its honestly because the initial DEVs thought they were being creative with a magic guard meter formula that diminished based on number of hits and damage taken, but failed to think of it in light of pvp... Only PVE. A better way for them to have done this was just put a flat damage # on each shield saying how much it can absorb. THen as you get better shields, you upgrade and can block more damage total - big hits SHOULD wipe our block meter quickly..
The BEST idea I have heard is what I repeated in this thread.
Block = stamina and time based rather than damage/hit based. This literally unbelievably fixed the skill and I am absolutely SHOCKED they havnt changed block yet.
That's too OP and a stupid idea. The problem is that small DOT's hit it down so fast such as plaguefire (if I am not mistaken) will tick that block down so fast, block is currently one of the best against big burst hits that you anticipate coming at you but small hits will just destroy the shield PvP wise.
I'd rather be something to support my team mates than myself, that is infact what a tank should be all about. I love the idea of GF having the most knocks and prones and I don't like the way they allowed GWF to be the "pvp CC tank" that GF used to always be. I remember the time people would complain 24/7 about GF being too OP as it hit too high and knocked too much. I used to play GWF back in BETA when we were the "worst class" in the game however I could still beat rogues in a 1v1 at the time, then they buffed us GWF's in beta and nerfed the rogues and from there GWF's have seen a power creep much more than other classes. Ofcourse rogues stealth is currently pretty broke but I certainly wouldn't say TR damage is at all broken anymore.
You just got to think in terms of what a supportive CC tank actually needs to be doing in team PvP. We should be getting people off our teammates especially of our cleric, we should be managing to take damage that would hit our team if we didn't intercept it and we should be able to start ganks leading our team into the fight and picking targets off. I don't know if you would agree with those things, I feel that they need to make the game tactical in the way you need your team to survive and I think they are doing this well with how things currently are. However with GF I would like to see more of this thing, I don't actually think GF is at all underpowered in terms of PvP in comparison to PvE due to it's knocks that it has but the problem is GWF can do the same / similar sort of thing because they got given GF's paragon tree.
I'd just like to see GF as a sort of "leadership" class leading their team into battle and dictating the battle. I don't know if you ever played GW1 PvP but it was always a similar thing in that game with how warriors were used.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's
All the posters post about the role of a "tank" ,how can we improve the "tank role".
Quick question?Did ever cryptic referred to the Gf class as a "tank"?
Did ever cryptic used the term as the 90% of the forumers used it?WoW style?
BIG FAT NO.
In NW GF based to its given powers /encounters is a hybrid class.Striker,Defender,Controller.(designations used by the game for companions so i think we must stick to them)
Gf is little of everything.it is a versatile class.And i think that Gf must be played utilizing both three roles in a preferable percentage.Going full dps you ll never reach GWFs.Going full defender build/gamestyle you will fail in late t2/CN/VT combat.Going full support you ll never surpass CW/DC utility.
Since defence has a hard cap i think a Gf can be improved in the two other sectors:DPS and control.
Conq path is more oriented to striker.Defender to defender.And tactician to striker/controller.
NW action combat cannot be tanked in a WoW case.Is is a fast action game.FAST
fast and "tank" are opposite meanings.
So in order to make propositions to improve the class we must realize the frame,the gameplay in which the class was designed to perform.
generalizations about "cryptic to change the dungeons design " are complete unrealistic.Common guys.Do you know that to do this a company must redesign the whole game and then the rest 5 classes?Do you realize that?it is out of question.
yet many seriously propose that in the forums.
If ever a dev would read these threads when his eye would reach such a proposal would skip to the next post.
We need propositions about Gf that take into account the game based mechanics.
Which are:
Big Aoe easy to dodge but completely lethal to stay in.Lots and lots of adds with huge hp pool.Spawnable adds at certain percentage of boss fights.Adds that appear and hit from different directions.Special abilities that freeze and stun.(FH golems etc)
in that frame any change to increase the GF "tankiness" will barely solve the problem.Still the Gf will not be able to "tank" a la WOW style as many former WOWers suggest.
NW is a different game from WoW.
First of all GF as a class in 5-6% slower than any other class.Why?I see that if u use 3 D6 in utility slots you get the same speed the other classes have.This must change.No movement penalty for GF so to be able to follow combat as the rest of the classes are.
All animations of Gf to speed up a little.i want to see a dev in pk in first fight against the surgeon to use enforced threat.With the first attempt.Impossible.In a middle of mobs you get interrupted all the time.Yet GF must be in middle of mobs.So all animations to get an increase.
Block hp pool to get a 25-35% increase.
Mark 8% dr to raise up to 15-20%.
Enforced threat to have a range radius and not a target cup.
Weapon damage of all GF longswords to get a 15-20% increase.
Feats that proc(steel blitz) to proc more often.
Into the fray hp/action bonus can be boosted.
itemization of Gfs is ancient and obsolete.No arm pen etc.Bonuses that make no good at all(more defence in fom/FD sets).
GF needs more damage more arm pen.
Constitution must give more hp bonus to GFs.
Steel defence must start counting from the finish of the daily animation.Not from the start.So actually to be 5 secs.right now even if you have it 5 secs in reality it is 3.
Villain/s menace duration must be bigger.1-2 secs more.
Anvil of doom/GW thier recharge times to be reduced.
Anvil of doom can do double damage from 40%.if a boss is in 25% well the party will kill him anyways.
These are the most obvious shortcomings of the class.
In pvp , i actually think the only thing gf really needs is harder hitting at wills. quite a bit harder actually.
Having a TR/GF/GWF myself I can tell you the issue isnt damage. In fact a PVP GF will out DPS a PVP GWF, the issue in pvp is that its based on burst damage NOT DPS. So my GF has higher DPS than my GWF but my GWF can almost 1 combo kill someone so he doesnt need DPS.
THe biggest issue between GWF and GFs is that unstoppable BLOWS block out of the water in comparison and sprint is MUCH better than mark as well.
Dont fool yourself, The class mechanic for guardian fighters IS block even tho its on the shift key. Its too clunky and doesnt fit well to have block be on tab.
So its not mark versus unstoppable and sprint versus block. Its Block versus unstoppable and mark versus sprint.
I disagree that GFs should be as mobile as all the other classes. I mean you are full plate wearing with a shield. What they NEED to be though is very tanky.
Right now GWFs are more tanky than GFs, the nature of how block works is just so crappy... mrhinkypunk is right and wrong in that DOTs drop your guard meter, guard meter is a weird function where its a certain damage cap that each hit gets capped at.
As long as the damage is at that cap, it will take roughly 7 hits at that damage cap (call it 1500) for block to be fully shredded.
So if you would have taken 20k damage, it only counts for 1500 on the block meter, if you only take 100 damage it doesnt do the same as a 1500 hit on block (itll do like half that).
Im using those numbers as examples. I really think putting block to a pure time base/stamina will fix block. I would put a "reserve" on it so you need like 30% stamina meter to activate block, but that 30% can be used if holding it - if that makes sense.
So having a small sliver of block doesnt mean you can spam it - and in fact they put a small ICD on spamming block to prevent that in the first place.
TO mrhinkypunk's second point - hence why I was suggesting the TAB function of GFs should be a re-work of Knights Valor - absord/split damage with your team.
Fighter classes were never good damage classes. People keep focusing on damage.
If you want to take that path, suggest then that STR/CON/DEX would be the same for GFs as it is for GWFs.
GF currently:
STR - damage/guard
CON - HP
DEX - ARP/deflect
GWF currently:
STR - dmg
CON - HP/ARP
DEX - Crit/Deflect
On average GFs have liek 15% crit or so. doing this would push them up to other classes so with 22 DEX youll now be at 27% crit - definitely good enough for a vorpal build.
Right now the status of GF:
- Immobile
- Not tanky/hard to kill at all.... Block is gone in 2 seconds and no mitigation/dodge abilities.
- Low Crit
GFs can get some of the highest ARP in the game currently and have some of the hardest hitting abilities due to Conq path doubling power. The problem is people wouldnt know because crit is so low it doesnt matter and they are so squishy as a class because of block/movement speed issues that nobody even cares about GFs.
... =[
I'm watching it now. One of the guys talking is the guy responsible for player powers and balanced and he said GWFs and HRs were gonna keep him busy for a while. Hopefully there was SOMEONE who brought it up. AntMonster said they were gonna spend a long time on it a while ago. But that WAS a while ago.
Yup, unfortunately... Its really funny how all this has panned out. If a patch came out and it was a DC power that was bugged making it OP -> Patched almost instantly.
NEED fixing:
TR power OP? "ehhhh, well address it in the future" look at the "perma" build and how they claimed they were looking into stealth......
GF? no response
CW? like ARP not working on most skills.... "we just dont have time for this right now"
Dont really need fixing:
GWF? "Were really working on the GWF right now"
HR? "Working on it"
Help me understand that.... GWFs/HRs/TRs are arguable the most OP classes right now... and instead of fixing/focusing on the other classes, they look at the HR/GWF?
I get how they want some balance there... But jeez.... the CW/ARP fix should have been top priority LONG ago. TR stealth should have been worked on and then GF balance should have been worked on....
I wonder if I can find that old thread where they discussed the GF tab change where they announced mark = perma mark... (btw this was the laziest way out on that one)
I think the GF needs another good face tanking set bonus besides +25% blocking meter.
As I spoke about in this thread before I play with a group of friends, and we have gotten to the point where all T2s are on farm status and we are eyeing T2.5. I play with the same group constantly. The group is now GF, TR, CW, GWF, DC. GWF was formerly a HR, but he rerolled to GWF. Completely PvE focused. We have been playing since January. None of us were boot strapped by a guild. Instead we formed a guild and played just between ourselves going through the content as it was intended.
For armor sets I own all the T1 sets, a full T2 grand regent set, a full T2 Timeless set, and I have 2 pieces of Indomitable Champion. (I also have 2 soul forged enchantments to enable the use of two armor sets, and if it matters the 2.5 ancient weapon/shield set).
The reason I list all this stuff is because here is the choices I make for armor use, and I have farmed them enough now that the choices are clear and stable:
FC) KC for boss 1,2, and 3.
SP) KC for boss 1, 2 pieces of Grand Regent + 2 pieces of Indomitable for boss 2, KC for boss 3
Caverns) 2 pieces of Grand Regent + 2 pieces of Indomitable for bosses 1 and 2, KC for boss 3
Temple) KC for boss 1, 2, and 3.
You notice, that of the T2s dungeons, there are three encounters I don't use a set on? They are Caverns of Karr boss 1 and 2 and Spellplagued boss 2. Those encounters are the ones where my role is to keep agro on named + as much painful trash as possible while needing as little healing as possible, and doing so on those encounters is not a trivial exercise. I suppose if I was going to pick the set bonus ideal in that scenario it would be +25% guard meter, but I haven't been excited enough by that to chase it down.
I think the devs should take another stab at a "be as indestructible as possible" set bonus. Since "being indestructible as possible" is something most people do not feel is OP in Neverwinter it would be nice if they got a little creative and really made me say, "Wow I want that!" +25% guard meter doesn't wow me.
Since I made the list of what I wear, I want to also note:I am not sure how the dominance of KC will play out after the change. IMO KC was OP in the sense that it stood out as unquestionably the best thing to have as a set bonus, but the question is when you have played your entire Neverwinter career relying on the OP set bonus what do you do when it gets nerfed?
I also think it would be nice if at some point in the future you released a T2 version of the nerfed KC, where the buff also effected the GF that proc'd it. That would be a decent, but not OP, T2 set bonus.
Here is the GWF T2 Avatar of War set bonus:
Set 4: Your Encounter powers grant Onslaught. When Onslaught reaches 3 stacks you gain 1350 Recovery and Power. Onslaught lasts for 10 seconds and is refreshed each time you strike a foe with an Encounter power.
Here is the GF T2 Timeless Hero set bonus:
Set 4: Your Encounter powers grant 450 Critical Strike for 6 seconds. This effect stacks up to 3 times.
Here is my take:
1) The set bonuses address very similar roles for their respective classes.
2) The GWF gains 1350 power which is now a better bonus than the GF 1350 Critical Strike bonus after power changes.
3) The GWF gains a perk of 1350 Recovery for a total of 2700 stats.
4) Both players can keep their bonus going indefinately provided they keep using encounters on foes.
5) The GF has a perk that their encounters don't have to hit a foe.
6) The GWF has 10 seconds to refresh their stacks. The GF has 6 seconds.
So apparently, having to use your encounter power on foes means you get 10 seconds instead of 6, 2700 points of stats instead of 1350, and power instead of crit (now better).
Worth? Can I swap my Timeless set bonus for the Avatar of War set bonus? Pretty please? Cause not worth...
You all probably think it is the power that I am jealous of? No! I am jealous of the 10 seconds. I have been playing with Timeless, and while I can rotate 3 encounters just perfectly to keep the crit going indefinately with a pattern of Lunging Strike -> Encounter 1 -> Lunging Strike -> Encounter 2 -> (repeat), it is a bit restrictive to play like this. You have to sacrifice the value of spamming encounters as they refresh to keep them rotating to carry the time between Lunging Strikes.
I suspect I know why we don't get 10 seconds. It is because since Timeless doesn't require you to hit an opponent, something like into the fray + a ton of Recovery could theoretically get you down to the point where you keep 3 stacks forever, but... that would take so much recovery that you would lose any advantage in the first place!
IMO
GF Timeless Hero should get their own "perk stat" since it takes a bit of sacrifice to keep that 6 second window rotating forever. You cannot use encounters as soon as they come up to do it. Having more time on Avatar of War compensates for having to use encounters on foes, since that is a mechanical issue. However, that doesn't justify a difference in total stats (or power) or overall gain in fully stacked bonus when both sets are fully charged.
Why I am here though I acknowledge that the TR Master Assassin, "Set 4: Gain 1350 Power for 6 seconds after using a Daily Power," has an even more unfavorable comparison to Avatar of War. Continuous 1350 Power + Recover vs 6 seconds of 1350 power after a daily? LoL.
hey take heart my friend! They are REALLY focusing in on HRs and GWFs right now - cause it was needed right? LOL!!!!
While GFs will sit back and cry in this next module over no real changes, HRs will be abusing the pvp gear that heals you 2% of MAX HP each time you deflect...
Smart HRs will run over 40% deflect and out heal any at will spamming.... Ive tested this against my GWF Sent Perf Vorp yadda yadda.... its stupid. Use my encoutner combo - got him to ~70%, at willed him and it brought him back to over 90% HP. Its like having Emblem active almost 24/7...
How about GFs new 4pc is: Heals you 2% of Max HP each time you block an attack. that sounds balanced right? LOL!
In all seriousness:
GFs need some love... I, for one, am NOT someone trying to promote "uber leet deeps" for the GF in making them fair...
The problem is TWO fold:
1) Nobody wants them in PVE
2) Nobody wants them in PVP
Why?
1) No tank needed, people prefer CC/DPS over a tank, GFs dont have an easy time getting agro AND its not needed.
2) They dont really perform any roll... In PVP its all about the "stalemate" or "backcapper" as its commonly called. The best two classes in 1v1s are HRs and TRs with GWFs close behind.
A TR will tear the GF up hands down any day of the week, just because of how Flurry works and how block works. Ontop of that, what does the GF bring to the table in PVP? Two prones, and a "mark" that debuffs? That has no group synergy really...
So to solve both problems:
1) Give GFs something they can bring to the table to make clearing/killing easier - without making content easier (aka in the form of MORE DEEPS!!)
2) Give GFs something they can not only use to make themselves more viable for 1v1 "node holding" but also some group utility they can use to keep other players alive in PVP.
Both of these can be solved with TWO changes.
1) Block is a fixed stamina/time duration - removes TRs massive advantage over GFs, gives GFs tools to properly time and survive against classes when used properly.
2) Fix "Tab" so it actually has a good "guardian" ability. Guardian Fighters roll is supposed to revolve around "contain foes and keep them away from your friends" thats what the 4e wiki says anyways - LOL!
So TO ME it seems this can easily be done by swapping out Knights Valor for Tab. There are unique ways of doing this but overall the effect is:
It makes it difficult for anyone to kill a teammate while a GF has this active forcing them to focus the GF.
It just seems to me this fill the roll of a guardian fighter.
THis would bring alot of value in PVE and PVP as it would be much easier to keep players alive without having to worry about "agro"
I have some patience, but it isn't limitless.
but do not give up someday GF will have love from DEV and will be on par with the other classes ... of course that day will not be in the modulo 3
I really like the combat system here. but it just isn't enough to prop the game up from it's many shortcomings.
They are looong over due for something.
And for godsake. Do something about swordmaster. Just underperforms in every way.
I got my GF stuck as swordmaster, hoping they'd adjust it to fit it better for them. Otherwise I'd just stayed as iron vanguard. Iron vanguard is better in every single situation and every way possible than swordmaster. Ever since the change, I've not barely played my GF because its just performing so much worse no matter what I do.
Also after IWD hit live i will use my GWF to craft leadership and pray with 18k GS 5 epic companions 1 Legend artifact & 2 90 purple arti +formorian fable sett 3 epic mount perfect enchants .
Figthers sux in IWD . I think the uthgard barbarians laughing on us so called fighters.
Weapon Enchants:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?657951-This-is-probably-asking-for-too-much-but
Can a GF use a bilethorn very well? No. Because we attack too slow to really get much benefit from it along with our low weapon damage.
All of these weapon enchants work amazing with other classes because of high weapon damage and or rapid attacks - or BOTH!
Even Vorpal GFs get the short end because at best we can get about 20-25% crit chance while alot of other classes can easily push 40%+ in PVP! Thats almost DOUBLE the effectiveness of the enchant!
Well... If weapon enchants were based on the end DAMAGE not the weapon damage - this would actually do QUITE a bit to balance classes out.....
Jugger Conq GF
....