Who has been acting like that? I'm curious. All that's been pointed out is that there are builds which are equally comparable to the strength of Tenes, just because you don't see people using them doesn't mean they dont exist. Like Alt and I have pointed out, there are ton of builds out there that people use and compete with, against people with Tenes all the time. And they are successful.
On top of that you have things like Barkshield, not to mention certain fixes they could implement to make it even more fair, like the dodge problem, or tenes going through SF. There are so many ways to work around Tenes, these changes simply destroy their entire usability.
Look at the AH, already have Gtenes going for 1.8mil lol
The goal is to make them less overpowered in pvp. The changes are suppose to make them less usable. They are best in slot for every class but DC. Just look at all the pvp videos of high end tournys. Its basically tene vs tene
1. I actually think this will have the opposite effect: I think more people will join or come back to NW now that tennys are getting the nerf. Also, the amount of people who paid money for tennys are a fairly minimal portion of the NW population. Considering the fact they have the best enchants in game and aren't spending money for more means Cryptic will not miss them.
2. Thank you for admitting the obvious truth. Many are still in denial about this.
^^ agreed. To have any kind of ranked pvp, tenes need to go
Let's just take a GWF vs CW fight then, they have takedown, roar, and flourish and that will take a CW down for probably 8 seconds. Now let's say you have a CW who in a rotation has shard, icy rays, chill strike, and steal time, which would be a stupid pvp rotation but a best case CC scenario, along with ray of frost of course. Now let's put an elven battle on both, the GWF is still ccing for those 8 seconds, while the CW in a rotation might do 5 seconds if you're lucky and hit him outside unstoppable with everything, if you're unlucky and hit him in unstoppable with shard, then you'd be lucky to see 2 seconds of CC in that rotation.
No. Where did you get the numbers? Takedown is 3 seconds, roar is may be 1 second, no more, and the same is flourish.
So you have a total of 5 seconds AT BEST. Meaning if a GWF use only the cc encounters. Which means losing all the damage from IBS, for example. Or the healing from restoring strike.
And 5 seconds are still a lot less than what a CW can do if specced properly.
Also, if you throw your encounters while a GWF is in Unstoppable... i'm sorry, but that's your fault... you should just avoid him during those 4 seconds (rarely the 8 seconds of a full unstoppable) using your teleports.
A GWF with roar+takedown+flourish in no way can deliver enough damage in just one rotation (roar is about 1k damage, takedown 2.8k), and after that rotation he will be in cooldown, while you would soon have your cc up again.
Seriously, i can understand the complaints about GFs chain prone (still, a CW can easily guess when he will charge and teleport), but GWF cc is far behind a CW's or a GF's...
Usually you get flourish+ takedown, or roar+ takedown. 4 seconds of cc. And the dodge teleport immunity is enough to dodge those encounters and send them on cooldown.
A GWF with roar can fool you the first time, but the next time? You see him facing you and in range to use roar? You teleport and his roar goes on cooldown. Roar users tend to throw it as soon as they can, so you don't even have to worry about wasting that teleport. Just have to time it right.
One thing i like about the fighting mechanincs of this game is that a lot of stuff is about timing and dodging.
Nastiest CWs are the ones who wait for your animation to start before dodging (GWF close range encounters like takedown, IBS or even flourish have slow, easily dodgeable animations compared to other classes) and use the knockback abd high mobility to lock you in a cc loop, making you struggle to even reach them.
Easiest ones...those who unload all theirs cc, then teleport as soon as you get close. You just run, they teleport 3 times, then you get them with a last sprint-takedown exc...
Right now, from my point of view i have ways to counter almost anything if the gear difference is not too big.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Just look at all the pvp videos of high end tournys. Its basically tene vs tene
Yep, this was the real problem with them. They're so brokenly and obviously overpowered that they're BiS for everyone, and it reduces character building options down to "most tene's slotted."
"Who has the more expensive tene's" isn't a fun PvP match, hopefully this makes things more interesting.
There was a GF in our guild who purposefully didn't slot Stalwart's set well before the nerf because he knew it was OP and would get nerfed.
There were many CWs in our guild who knew the HV set would get nerfed long before the nerf.
And you didn't see this coming? This should have happened months ago.
Buyer beware. You own nothing.
Thank you, Cryptic!
Tene's were already nerfed twice if you didn't know. I had full stalwart, lost about 500k, boohoo no big deal. HV is still BiS lol. If I sold you an insurance policy for 200k and then when your "significant other" died and I only paid you 20k and told you your policy got "nerfed" would you sue me or just tell yourself "I guess I should have been more aware of this..."
Why do people want to see tene's completely nerfed anyway? You worked or paid for the gear that are currently wearing. Those that have tene's worked exponentially harder and now you're so happy that you get to say screw them. I showed beyond a shadow of a doubt in an earlier post that Gtene's costs more AD to create than R10's do, so why should they be equivalent to R5's instead? Overnerfing is what make people mad.
You think I always had Tene's lol? I spent months learning how to beat them without using them. I got better in PvP by playing against them. What the cryers want is to not have to change what they're doing and just have the people that are beating them get nerfed. This is stupidity as Tene's are not an I win button. Anyone that says that you are welcome to come to PTR, I will give you tene's, and then will proceed to crush you in PvP w/o using my own tene's. Because guess what, the people that say that are inexperienced in PvP, that's the bottom line.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Actually the nerf won't kill the tene enchantment like everyone thinks for the following reasons:
1- Dev didn't say that Tene wont go through immunity.
2- An average player of 20% damage resistance, will only reduce the tene damage by 1.4k.
3- Deflection is a chance, and if it works, it would reduce the incoming damage by 50% ( you have 50% severity on most of characters including DC the 75% severity there is a wrong tooltip, and 25% severity on TR i think). Question here is, how can you be sure that you will deflect the enchantment at the same time it procs? even if you 30% deflection chance, we are here comparing 30% chance to 100% chance of tene's proc every 20 seconds.
4- About that dodge, very nice you can dodge it, but how are you going to know WHEN to dodge the tene's proc? probably you can dodge the initial proc, but good luck with the rest especially if you are getting CC'ed.
5- Dev didn't say that damage over time wont proc tene, which would make defelcting it/dodging it even harder to perform.
So theoretically , the Tene enchant over all damage is reduced by 30% ( the DR of proper geared player) assuming that the player doesn;t have any mitigation debuffs on him. ( with deflection not taken in consideration, since it is a chance % not permanent like i mentioned in #3)
what people are mad about is how long they took to do anything about it. They should have done this a while ago. It feels like alot of ppl got led on like they were working as intended. There is no Definition for necrotic damage that is out there in this game. And its not like devs weren't paying attention because first Day of fay-wild they brought the severs down because ppl were getting nightmares. So they know what is going. Nerf them they need to be but they r taking there time and choosing when to fix things. Explain what necrotic damage is, "By the way i sold 2 tenes for a perfect vorpal so i got lucky got rid of my before the nerf". The thing this should have been done ages ago not when everyone spends a lot of money to get them.
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slayorianMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2013
So they're going to do a little less damage than before? People are crying like they just lost their parents in here.
In any case, about DAYUM time this fix comes in. I lost all faith after caturday and the nightmare incident. This is restored about 10% of it.
Like others have said. The only thing wrong with this fix is that it too long to get in.
I believe necrotic damage definition is basically a damage that isn't affected by your armor pen nor feats/dailies or anything that boosts your damage, unlike arcane damage, which can be affected by your damage boosters/feats ( I.E : The 4th boon Eleven ferocity , which gives you 400 arcane damage with 1 minute CD. The 400 arcane damage can increase with your damage buffs).
But i'm only speculating , since we have no official resource of the true definition behind necro damage.
So they're going to do a little less damage than before? People are crying like they just lost their parents in here.
Exactly... IMO, they are still BiS for PvP even after the nerf. People are overreacting. It is more like a tuning more than a nerf, since the enchant itself is untouched, just that now it depends on how geared your target is.
2- An average player of 20% damage resistance, will only reduce the tene damage by 1.4k.
3- Deflection is a chance, and if it works, it would reduce the incoming damage by 50% ( you have 50% severity on most of characters including DC the 75% severity there is a wrong tooltip, and 25% severity on TR i think). Question here is, how can you be sure that you will deflect the enchantment at the same time it procs? even if you 30% deflection chance, we are here comparing 30% chance to 100% chance of tene's proc every 20 seconds.
With your numbers you are assuming 7k for total damage from tenebrous, so I'll use that. For GWFs with 50% reduction and 40% (note some are higher but I'm using numbers to make the math easy) deflection, you're talking an overall nerf to tenebrous of 50% just from defense, then when you calculate in deflect as well, you're talking 30% of normal damage, a 70% NERF vs senti GWF. And this is without factoring in unstoppable...
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slayorianMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
With your numbers you are assuming 7k for total damage from tenebrous, so I'll use that. For GWFs with 50% reduction and 40% (note some are higher but I'm using numbers to make the math easy) deflection, you're talking an overall nerf to tenebrous of 50% just from defense, then when you calculate in deflect as well, you're talking 30% of normal damage, a 70% NERF vs senti GWF. And this is without factoring in unstoppable...
As it should be. Note, ultra survive sent builds will do less damage, as well.
With your numbers you are assuming 7k for total damage from tenebrous, so I'll use that. For GWFs with 50% reduction and 40% (note some are higher but I'm using numbers to make the math easy) deflection, you're talking an overall nerf to tenebrous of 50% just from defense, then when you calculate in deflect as well, you're talking 30% of normal damage, a 70% NERF vs senti GWF. And this is without factoring in unstoppable...
Which is fine, since sentinel GWF isn't supposed to die in 1 vs 1 situation anyways ( with or without tene's nerf).
Even with current Tenebrous:
Sent GWF is only killable in 2 vs 1 situation. IT can be killed in 1 vs 1, but the fight would take ages and horribly long time that;s why it is more efficient to just stall him.
So i don't think Sent GWF is the best example to test the Tene's nerf against.
Which is fine, since sentinel GWF isn't supposed to die in 1 vs 1 situation anyways.
Even with current Tenebrous:
Sent GWF is only killable in 2 vs 1 situation. IT can be killed in 1 vs 1, but the fight would take ages and horribly long time that;s why it is more efficient to just stall him.
So i don't think Sent GWF is the best example to test the Tene's nerf against.
So we should only count tenebrous damage against TRs and CWs, but ignore the fact that the already OP GF and GWF actually receive a buff from the tenebrous nerf? That's a nerf straight into the ground for the enchant, making them worthless.
You said 20% damage difference, I just wanted to show the opposite end of the scale, which is 70% without counting unstoppable, which would probably be in the range of 85-90% instead. That is a nerf that makes the enchant worthless, sell those greaters off for 100k now if this is the case, as rank 5 darks would make you do more damage, seriously.
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slayorianMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So we should only count tenebrous damage against TRs and CWs, but ignore the fact that the already OP GF and GWF actually receive a buff from the tenebrous nerf? That's a nerf straight into the ground for the enchant, making them worthless.
You said 20% damage difference, I just wanted to show the opposite end of the scale, which is 70% without counting unstoppable, which would probably be in the range of 85-90% instead. That is a nerf that makes the enchant worthless, sell those greaters off for 100k now if this is the case, as rank 5 darks would make you do more damage, seriously.
I'll buy them all for 100k. Just let me know if you're serious. I'd love to have them even after the fix.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Tene's were already nerfed twice if you didn't know. I had full stalwart, lost about 500k, boohoo no big deal. HV is still BiS lol. If I sold you an insurance policy for 200k and then when your "significant other" died and I only paid you 20k and told you your policy got "nerfed" would you sue me or just tell yourself "I guess I should have been more aware of this..."
Seriously? Your compaing your tenebrous enchantments to the death of a spouse and a $200,000/$20,000 payout?
So we should only count tenebrous damage against TRs and CWs, but ignore the fact that the already OP GF and GWF actually receive a buff from the tenebrous nerf? That's a nerf straight into the ground for the enchant, making them worthless.
You said 20% damage difference, I just wanted to show the opposite end of the scale, which is 70% without counting unstoppable, which would probably be in the range of 85-90% instead. That is a nerf that makes the enchant worthless, sell those greaters off for 100k now if this is the case, as rank 5 darks would make you do more damage, seriously.
1- With the current tenebrous, you still needed minimum 2 people to take a Sent GWF down. So what difference does it make to you if they nerf the tenebrous damage? it isn't like you need 2 players stacking Tenes to take a Sent GWf down, it can be done with 2 players having good amount of armor pens and mitigation debuffers ( lil hint, CWs). So i have no idea what the tenebrous has to do with killing GWF .
2- 20% DR is for average geared players, 30% for proper geared ones ( if they take defensive belts). -Without taking deflection chance in consideration since it is a trial and error stat.
Exampe : you have 40% deflect chance, vs a 100% proc chance of damage every 20 seconds. You have to be lucky, to have your deflection proccing at the same of the other enchantment proccing. Trial and Error.
I didn't take Sent GWFs in consideration, because they don't die 1 vs 1. and because you don't need tenebrous to kill them. And you know that very well.
So seriously Devs, assuming even a 70% reduction, in a GWF not using unstoppable, you're talking about taking a 7k hit down to 2100. How much damage do you have to do to make up for that with rank 5 darks? 7 5s = =35.72*840^1.88/(1225500+840^1.88) = ~7.3% damage, so 28-29k damage in 20 seconds for rank 5s to be better than tenebrous. Change this to rank 10s instead and you're looking at under 10k damage for rank 10 darks to be more effective than tenebrous...
I believe necrotic damage definition is basically a damage that isn't affected by your armor pen nor feats/dailies or anything that boosts your damage, unlike arcane damage, which can be affected by your damage boosters/feats ( I.E : The 4th boon Eleven ferocity , which gives you 400 arcane damage with 1 minute CD. The 400 arcane damage can increase with your damage buffs).
But i'm only speculating , since we have no official resource of the true definition behind necro damage.
Equip Lesser Terror (only 1% damage increase). Go hit a dummy while naked (0 mitigation). Go hit a Mount Hotenow Flamespiker or Miner (~16% mitigation) while naked. Re-equip all your usual ArP gear and hit it again (though don't do this on your broken Cleric, lol!). You will see noticeable differences in the Necrotic damage.
So, only a few things ignore damage resistance or unaffected by ArP. Tenes happen to be one of them. But not general Necrotic damage.
Necrotic also benefits from debuffs on target and explicit buffs, though it would appear not feats (+boons) nor character stats (including Ability Scores).
Well let's take this from going against say a CW then, the squishiest class. Most CWs are going to have in the range of 15-20% damage reduction is all, and running HV they might have say 7% deflection chance for 50%. And you're right, with HV stacks it will be closer to 30%, but those aren't always up, especially the defensive stacks in PVP. So now you're talking 7k hits down to 5600 from defense, and ~5200 with deflection calculated. This is roughly a 25% nerf to damage of tenebrous, and that's your best case scenario for the LEAST NERF. Now let's do math again, now you have to do ~70k damage in 20 seconds for rank 5s to be more effective. But remember this is against a squishy CW, the kind of guys TRs can hit for 20-30k lashing blades and 12-15k impact shots. And you can get 2 rotations of these off in that 20 seconds. Now with rank 10 darks, which you still HAVE TO RUN now because of senti GWFs and the tenebrous nerf incoming, a lot of arm pen is wasted on these CWs, so damage numbers here don't really change, just your rank 10s are wasted.
Darks will outperform tenebrous after this update, and that's just dumb. Whether you're up against a squishy CW or a tanky GWF.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
Actually the nerf won't kill the tene enchantment like everyone thinks for the following reasons:
snip
Well actually, the average GF and GWF damage resistance is 40%-50% and the average GF, GWF and TR deflect chance (pvp spec) is between 30%-40%, reducing damage by 50% or 75%, so the largest impact this change will have on Tene's is their effects on melee. Even PvP spec DCs run 35%+ dmg resistance and 25%+ deflect but those are extremely hard to stat for CWs, so Tene's will only be effective against them.
On my GWF my tenebrous damage accounts for over 30% of his total damage dealt in PvP - more than any 2 of his encounter powers combined. It's ridiculous that you can BUY that much damage. I'd rather build a powerful character than buy OP enchants (but they were fun while they lasted).
Furthermore tene stacked PvP matches are just ridiculous - if the average tene hits for 1k, and 4 can proc at the same time off 1 encounter power, that means with 5 users wielding tene's they can start off an encounter against their opponents with 20,000 undodgable, undeflectable damage that goes through all immunities and bypasses all damage reduction. And that's a LOW estimation.
Well actually, the average GF and GWF damage resistance is 40%-50% and the average GF, GWF and TR deflect chance (pvp spec) is between 30%-40%, reducing damage by 50% or 75%, so the largest impact this change will have on Tene's is their effects on melee. Even PvP spec DCs run 35%+ dmg resistance and 25%+ deflect but those are extremely hard to stat for CWs, so Tene's will only be effective against them.
As if they were effective as they are right now against tanky characters. You need 2 people to take down a tank. Tene or not. period.
TR deflect between 30~40%? it is possible if you make a halfling and slot him with defensive rings and necklaces, which is fine for me if enemy TRs do that because they will hit like a furr ball. Note that battle field skulker gives 1k armor pen so they wont have the damage if they count only on that.
An Offense PvP specced TR should have 25% ~30% DR and 15% deflect chance.
Well let's take this from going against say a CW then, the squishiest class. Most CWs are going to have in the range of 15-20% damage reduction is all, and running HV they might have say 7% deflection chance for 50%. And you're right, with HV stacks it will be closer to 30%, but those aren't always up, especially the defensive stacks in PVP. So now you're talking 7k hits down to 5600 from defense, and ~5200 with deflection calculated. This is roughly a 25% nerf to damage of tenebrous, and that's your best case scenario for the LEAST NERF. Now let's do math again, now you have to do ~70k damage in 20 seconds for rank 5s to be more effective. But remember this is against a squishy CW, the kind of guys TRs can hit for 20-30k lashing blades and 12-15k impact shots. And you can get 2 rotations of these off in that 20 seconds. Now with rank 10 darks, which you still HAVE TO RUN now because of senti GWFs and the tenebrous nerf incoming, a lot of arm pen is wasted on these CWs, so damage numbers here don't really change, just your rank 10s are wasted.
Darks will outperform tenebrous after this update, and that's just dumb. Whether you're up against a squishy CW or a tanky GWF.
Lets say i deal 5000 damage with every weapon swing, every 1 second.
With tene, i would deal 5000+7560 = 12560 damage , which would get reduced to 8792 due to 30% mitigation. for the rest of the 19 seconds, i would deal 5000*19 = 95000 reduced to 66500 due to 30% mitigation ( should be reduced to more due to deflection..) but lets keep it like that for now. So 8792 + 66500 = 75282.
With rank 10 darks, i would get 21% more damage from 7 of them. 35.72*2100^1.88/(1225500+2100^1.88) <---
So, i deal 5000 with every swing, every 1 second.
5000* 20 = 100,000 increased to 121,000...then reduced due to 30% mitigation to 84700 ( should be even lower number due to deflection).
So 75282 from tene , vs 84700 from rank 10 darks. I would still go for tene, since they are sufficient vs squihsy ones while i can already take down tanky ones with 2 vs 1 situations.
Bottom line is, it isn't worth it to slot rank 10 darks, it is an un needed over kill for squishies who can already die from tenes.
It shows nothing is safe from balancing in this game, even if people paid money for it - which is how it should be in an MMO. I can't even remember how many balancing patches, good or bad, my mage endured through in WoW and I paid monthly subscription and didn't go on Blizz's forums to blackmail them with me wanting to leave if my mage is not OP any more. Stalwart, HV, TR and upcoming Tene nerfs show that the devs actually do have the game's best interest long time instead of the supposed money grab that people keep talking about.
However Mr. Dev... if you do hit things with the nerfhammer... make sure you offer something such as free removal of enchants and so on. These guys constructed their builds entirely on the Tenes so they deserve to be able to remove them freely if they aren't happy with how they'll work.
I agree that they should have a free disenchant, hell make it ceremonial, i.e. after unenchanting a GTE, the TR/GWF's toon starts crying tears of sorrow on the screen for 30 minutes (j/k)
Great nerf devs.
I clearly agree with clearlyavirgin about the definition of necrotic damage. Does anyone have an in game discription showing that it should ignore everything?
"Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny" - Frank Zappa
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
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lucidproph3cyMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2013
It's not players fault for choosing an item that has been around that is BiS for your character. I don't see why everyone blames the player saying you had to know it was coming and its your fault for slotting them. The player was only picking the best choice for their build which i would do the same. There will always be a BiS item which people will gravitate to. Also you can't compare this is stalwart or high viz which are armor sets that don't even come close to the actual price paid for a tene enchant.
The amount of astral diamonds invested in these builds are enourmous so you can't just nerf them and say oh well. People have invested time and money getting these enchants and should be compensated, but the people who are to blame are the dev's for not fixing this sooner. Instead they waited and gave the player based the idea that they were here to stay. I only see two solutions: fix them so they don't proc through soulforge and dodge but are not mitigated by defense, or let everyone unslot them for free and vendor them to a NPC for the going rate of what a greater tene was before the mass hysteria. Cryptic should be the ones to blame for even letting this enchantment go live in the first place so they need to atone and make it up to the players that use them if this nerf goes live.
Comments
The goal is to make them less overpowered in pvp. The changes are suppose to make them less usable. They are best in slot for every class but DC. Just look at all the pvp videos of high end tournys. Its basically tene vs tene
^^ agreed. To have any kind of ranked pvp, tenes need to go
No. Where did you get the numbers? Takedown is 3 seconds, roar is may be 1 second, no more, and the same is flourish.
So you have a total of 5 seconds AT BEST. Meaning if a GWF use only the cc encounters. Which means losing all the damage from IBS, for example. Or the healing from restoring strike.
And 5 seconds are still a lot less than what a CW can do if specced properly.
Also, if you throw your encounters while a GWF is in Unstoppable... i'm sorry, but that's your fault... you should just avoid him during those 4 seconds (rarely the 8 seconds of a full unstoppable) using your teleports.
A GWF with roar+takedown+flourish in no way can deliver enough damage in just one rotation (roar is about 1k damage, takedown 2.8k), and after that rotation he will be in cooldown, while you would soon have your cc up again.
Seriously, i can understand the complaints about GFs chain prone (still, a CW can easily guess when he will charge and teleport), but GWF cc is far behind a CW's or a GF's...
Usually you get flourish+ takedown, or roar+ takedown. 4 seconds of cc. And the dodge teleport immunity is enough to dodge those encounters and send them on cooldown.
A GWF with roar can fool you the first time, but the next time? You see him facing you and in range to use roar? You teleport and his roar goes on cooldown. Roar users tend to throw it as soon as they can, so you don't even have to worry about wasting that teleport. Just have to time it right.
One thing i like about the fighting mechanincs of this game is that a lot of stuff is about timing and dodging.
Nastiest CWs are the ones who wait for your animation to start before dodging (GWF close range encounters like takedown, IBS or even flourish have slow, easily dodgeable animations compared to other classes) and use the knockback abd high mobility to lock you in a cc loop, making you struggle to even reach them.
Easiest ones...those who unload all theirs cc, then teleport as soon as you get close. You just run, they teleport 3 times, then you get them with a last sprint-takedown exc...
Right now, from my point of view i have ways to counter almost anything if the gear difference is not too big.
There was a GF in our guild who purposefully didn't slot Stalwart's set well before the nerf because he knew it was OP and would get nerfed.
There were many CWs in our guild who knew the HV set would get nerfed long before the nerf.
And you didn't see this coming? This should have happened months ago.
Buyer beware. You own nothing.
Thank you, Cryptic!
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
Yep, this was the real problem with them. They're so brokenly and obviously overpowered that they're BiS for everyone, and it reduces character building options down to "most tene's slotted."
"Who has the more expensive tene's" isn't a fun PvP match, hopefully this makes things more interesting.
Tene's were already nerfed twice if you didn't know. I had full stalwart, lost about 500k, boohoo no big deal. HV is still BiS lol. If I sold you an insurance policy for 200k and then when your "significant other" died and I only paid you 20k and told you your policy got "nerfed" would you sue me or just tell yourself "I guess I should have been more aware of this..."
Why do people want to see tene's completely nerfed anyway? You worked or paid for the gear that are currently wearing. Those that have tene's worked exponentially harder and now you're so happy that you get to say screw them. I showed beyond a shadow of a doubt in an earlier post that Gtene's costs more AD to create than R10's do, so why should they be equivalent to R5's instead? Overnerfing is what make people mad.
You think I always had Tene's lol? I spent months learning how to beat them without using them. I got better in PvP by playing against them. What the cryers want is to not have to change what they're doing and just have the people that are beating them get nerfed. This is stupidity as Tene's are not an I win button. Anyone that says that you are welcome to come to PTR, I will give you tene's, and then will proceed to crush you in PvP w/o using my own tene's. Because guess what, the people that say that are inexperienced in PvP, that's the bottom line.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
1- Dev didn't say that Tene wont go through immunity.
2- An average player of 20% damage resistance, will only reduce the tene damage by 1.4k.
3- Deflection is a chance, and if it works, it would reduce the incoming damage by 50% ( you have 50% severity on most of characters including DC the 75% severity there is a wrong tooltip, and 25% severity on TR i think). Question here is, how can you be sure that you will deflect the enchantment at the same time it procs? even if you 30% deflection chance, we are here comparing 30% chance to 100% chance of tene's proc every 20 seconds.
4- About that dodge, very nice you can dodge it, but how are you going to know WHEN to dodge the tene's proc? probably you can dodge the initial proc, but good luck with the rest especially if you are getting CC'ed.
5- Dev didn't say that damage over time wont proc tene, which would make defelcting it/dodging it even harder to perform.
So theoretically , the Tene enchant over all damage is reduced by 30% ( the DR of proper geared player) assuming that the player doesn;t have any mitigation debuffs on him. ( with deflection not taken in consideration, since it is a chance % not permanent like i mentioned in #3)
In any case, about DAYUM time this fix comes in. I lost all faith after caturday and the nightmare incident. This is restored about 10% of it.
Like others have said. The only thing wrong with this fix is that it too long to get in.
But i'm only speculating , since we have no official resource of the true definition behind necro damage.
Exactly... IMO, they are still BiS for PvP even after the nerf. People are overreacting. It is more like a tuning more than a nerf, since the enchant itself is untouched, just that now it depends on how geared your target is.
With your numbers you are assuming 7k for total damage from tenebrous, so I'll use that. For GWFs with 50% reduction and 40% (note some are higher but I'm using numbers to make the math easy) deflection, you're talking an overall nerf to tenebrous of 50% just from defense, then when you calculate in deflect as well, you're talking 30% of normal damage, a 70% NERF vs senti GWF. And this is without factoring in unstoppable...
As it should be. Note, ultra survive sent builds will do less damage, as well.
Which is fine, since sentinel GWF isn't supposed to die in 1 vs 1 situation anyways ( with or without tene's nerf).
Even with current Tenebrous:
Sent GWF is only killable in 2 vs 1 situation. IT can be killed in 1 vs 1, but the fight would take ages and horribly long time that;s why it is more efficient to just stall him.
So i don't think Sent GWF is the best example to test the Tene's nerf against.
So we should only count tenebrous damage against TRs and CWs, but ignore the fact that the already OP GF and GWF actually receive a buff from the tenebrous nerf? That's a nerf straight into the ground for the enchant, making them worthless.
You said 20% damage difference, I just wanted to show the opposite end of the scale, which is 70% without counting unstoppable, which would probably be in the range of 85-90% instead. That is a nerf that makes the enchant worthless, sell those greaters off for 100k now if this is the case, as rank 5 darks would make you do more damage, seriously.
I'll buy them all for 100k. Just let me know if you're serious. I'd love to have them even after the fix.
Seriously? Your compaing your tenebrous enchantments to the death of a spouse and a $200,000/$20,000 payout?
Check please!
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
1- With the current tenebrous, you still needed minimum 2 people to take a Sent GWF down. So what difference does it make to you if they nerf the tenebrous damage? it isn't like you need 2 players stacking Tenes to take a Sent GWf down, it can be done with 2 players having good amount of armor pens and mitigation debuffers ( lil hint, CWs). So i have no idea what the tenebrous has to do with killing GWF .
2- 20% DR is for average geared players, 30% for proper geared ones ( if they take defensive belts). -Without taking deflection chance in consideration since it is a trial and error stat.
Exampe : you have 40% deflect chance, vs a 100% proc chance of damage every 20 seconds. You have to be lucky, to have your deflection proccing at the same of the other enchantment proccing. Trial and Error.
I didn't take Sent GWFs in consideration, because they don't die 1 vs 1. and because you don't need tenebrous to kill them. And you know that very well.
Tenebrous enchant = trash enchant
Equip Lesser Terror (only 1% damage increase). Go hit a dummy while naked (0 mitigation). Go hit a Mount Hotenow Flamespiker or Miner (~16% mitigation) while naked. Re-equip all your usual ArP gear and hit it again (though don't do this on your broken Cleric, lol!). You will see noticeable differences in the Necrotic damage.
So, only a few things ignore damage resistance or unaffected by ArP. Tenes happen to be one of them. But not general Necrotic damage.
Necrotic also benefits from debuffs on target and explicit buffs, though it would appear not feats (+boons) nor character stats (including Ability Scores).
We're from Mindflayer. Apparently we have a different pvp philosophy than the other 2 servers. Nothing but teneb and perma-rogues since the merge.
Darks will outperform tenebrous after this update, and that's just dumb. Whether you're up against a squishy CW or a tanky GWF.
Well actually, the average GF and GWF damage resistance is 40%-50% and the average GF, GWF and TR deflect chance (pvp spec) is between 30%-40%, reducing damage by 50% or 75%, so the largest impact this change will have on Tene's is their effects on melee. Even PvP spec DCs run 35%+ dmg resistance and 25%+ deflect but those are extremely hard to stat for CWs, so Tene's will only be effective against them.
On my GWF my tenebrous damage accounts for over 30% of his total damage dealt in PvP - more than any 2 of his encounter powers combined. It's ridiculous that you can BUY that much damage. I'd rather build a powerful character than buy OP enchants (but they were fun while they lasted).
Furthermore tene stacked PvP matches are just ridiculous - if the average tene hits for 1k, and 4 can proc at the same time off 1 encounter power, that means with 5 users wielding tene's they can start off an encounter against their opponents with 20,000 undodgable, undeflectable damage that goes through all immunities and bypasses all damage reduction. And that's a LOW estimation.
Welcome change.
As if they were effective as they are right now against tanky characters. You need 2 people to take down a tank. Tene or not. period.
TR deflect between 30~40%? it is possible if you make a halfling and slot him with defensive rings and necklaces, which is fine for me if enemy TRs do that because they will hit like a furr ball. Note that battle field skulker gives 1k armor pen so they wont have the damage if they count only on that.
An Offense PvP specced TR should have 25% ~30% DR and 15% deflect chance.
Lets say i deal 5000 damage with every weapon swing, every 1 second.
With tene, i would deal 5000+7560 = 12560 damage , which would get reduced to 8792 due to 30% mitigation. for the rest of the 19 seconds, i would deal 5000*19 = 95000 reduced to 66500 due to 30% mitigation ( should be reduced to more due to deflection..) but lets keep it like that for now. So 8792 + 66500 = 75282.
With rank 10 darks, i would get 21% more damage from 7 of them. 35.72*2100^1.88/(1225500+2100^1.88) <---
So, i deal 5000 with every swing, every 1 second.
5000* 20 = 100,000 increased to 121,000...then reduced due to 30% mitigation to 84700 ( should be even lower number due to deflection).
So 75282 from tene , vs 84700 from rank 10 darks. I would still go for tene, since they are sufficient vs squihsy ones while i can already take down tanky ones with 2 vs 1 situations.
Bottom line is, it isn't worth it to slot rank 10 darks, it is an un needed over kill for squishies who can already die from tenes.
I agree that they should have a free disenchant, hell make it ceremonial, i.e. after unenchanting a GTE, the TR/GWF's toon starts crying tears of sorrow on the screen for 30 minutes
Great nerf devs.
I clearly agree with clearlyavirgin about the definition of necrotic damage. Does anyone have an in game discription showing that it should ignore everything?
Edit: ah I found it
http://community.wizards.com/content...-topic/2801466
Quote from thread
"Necrotic damage does whatever you wish it does. Just imagine and describe the effect. Bear in mind that it is, normally, healable"
Ah ok I see now.
/thread
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
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The amount of astral diamonds invested in these builds are enourmous so you can't just nerf them and say oh well. People have invested time and money getting these enchants and should be compensated, but the people who are to blame are the dev's for not fixing this sooner. Instead they waited and gave the player based the idea that they were here to stay. I only see two solutions: fix them so they don't proc through soulforge and dodge but are not mitigated by defense, or let everyone unslot them for free and vendor them to a NPC for the going rate of what a greater tene was before the mass hysteria. Cryptic should be the ones to blame for even letting this enchantment go live in the first place so they need to atone and make it up to the players that use them if this nerf goes live.