Just some offtopic but am i the only one that finds it strange that they rather come with more nerfes instead of fixing the gpf?:O
Let's wait 1 month, after that they gonna nerf perf. vorpal cuz it's better than every other dps enchant in most situations!
U heared it here first!
I also give the next tr nerfs 1 month cuz of all the qqing about throwing stuff in stealth and lashing critz!
When they gonna fix the gs bug in pvp? mh maybe like... 5 month when we are lucky or they dont find any more stuff to nerf.
Armour enchant: Blocks all forms of necrotic damage. Simple minds cleaver solutions.
Another option other than the bugged/broken barkshield to combat tene builds in a single enchant saving people from having to put in there own work and effort themselves to create the build to combat the tene builds (clearly that is too much work or thinking for people to do to combat the thinking and work "many not all" have undergone to do there tene build)
I do find it disappointing a lot of this community would rather roll over and say an item is over powered rather than find the knowledge to just counter them. Half of our top members do not even have a single tene on them including several of our top A-Team members.
FooSoo Lemonade Stand.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2013
But it is overpowered foosoo.
Nobody complains about R10s, or Perfects (OK I saw very few "complaints" about perfect SF on DCs, but they're rare).
IMO, the true power of GTEs is their ability to stack and be put in regular offense slots.
Cryptic shoud:
- Make GTE's better
- make a Perfect version available
- auto-remove them from armors in patch and put them in inventory
- convert them to a weapon enchant
This way we achieve what such a powerful enchant should be: unique. Tenes should not stack, and tenes should not be available to be used in combination with other powerful stuff such as a Perfect Vorpal.
Correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't use, or have any Tenes.
But I don't believe Tene procs can crit. 3% of your health in necrotic damage. That's it.
So having a perfect vorpal, or no vorpal has nothing to do with the actual damage Tenes do.
Its the amount of Tenes equipped, and the amount of base health a player has.
The most I've ever noticed being hit by greaters was around 900 I think.
It's not about their synergy with vorpals, which I don't think it exists. It's about them stacking 7 times, scaling with HP, AND being an addition to an already powerful weapon enhancement (most of the times).
What I'm saying is that Tenes should be buffed, should be allowed to be merged in Perfect version, and should be converted to a weapon enchant.
Why?
Because such powerful effects should not stack and should be mutually exclusive.
This way the server cooldown will be OK, and the necrotic damage going through everything will also be OK, and a new tene will still be very good, but just another option, instead of THE option to go to if you want top PvP.
Yep I've been on dragon since day one. Twist stuff however you want but when your guys were rocking perfects one month after launch it certainly wasn't from farming. I also know at least one of your guys got his gear from buying AD from a chinese gold farmer (he told me himself). Maybe I know more about your guild than you do. I can't expect a 16 year old GM to necessarily understand ethics I guess.
I asked you to point out who was banned, you failed at doing so and changed subject back to hearsay stuff, I really do wonder who's the 16 y/o but then again since i don't have ethics I should care very little of what some random has to say to me.
I don't have a personal vendetta against any of you, but a heck of a lot of the pushback to the nerf is coming from people in your guild which also happens to be one of the biggest users of the enchants in pvp.
That's because it's the BIS pvp enchant, we tend to recruit people with BIS items, mind blown right?
I agree with what Lantis, and many other people have said.
That they purchased an item with real $$ that is supposed to do "x". Now they are changing it to do "Y". On a business standpoint that is absolutely terrible.
I'll say it again: no one purchased the enchant. People bought the key to open the box. That's what you've been given for your money.
It would've been different if tenes were only available to buy for real $, but that's not the case. There's a zen shop, and one option is to purchase an item with real $. The item you guys bought was the key. And it worked as said: opened a box.
Now, the box, and the items inside it, are not the things you purchased, and may change. In fact, treasure chests change often. If what you say was true, PWE would be pursued everytime they change the treasure chests you can loot in game. What if someone bought the keys to loot the tenes before the chest change, then came back from holydays just to find that, for example, all the nightmare chests were gone and replaced with sharandar chests? Should he pursue PWE for that? You do not purchase the chest itself or the items inside it, but only the key to open them.
Plain, simple, and logic. I'm not against anyone, but these are facts.
You can complain cause you spent real money on such items and now they get changed, but the fact is, it was not your only option (you can gain AD in game and change them in the zen-AD Exchange), it was your choice, and the in-game items and loots are subject to changes cause it's the right of the devs to change them at will.
Also, people says tenes were only obtainable through real money. It's false. A key costs 120-150 zen (do not remember). The change is usually between 350 AD per zen and 360 AD per zen. Do you math, it's roughly 50-60k or so AD changed into zen to get a key. A guy said he can gain 3 mil or so in a week, and i'm sure top guilds and top players are able to do so. This means they could actually get the Keys, open the box and loot the tenes at the cost of 0$.
So, it's simply not true that people "purchased" the tenes. You must understand that you did not purchase the enchant. You used real money to have Keys in the faster (but not the only) way, open more boxes and get tenes faster/ more easily.
However, we know that some users spent lots of money just to have fast Keys and craft GTenes faster/ more easily, so i do agree that would be fair to compensate these users if they get nerfed that much.
I'll say it again: no one purchased the enchant. People bought the key to open the box. That's what you've been given for your money.
It would've been different if tenes were only available to buy for real $, but that's not the case. There's a zen shop, and one option is to purchase an item with real $. The item you guys bought was the key. And it worked as said: opened a box.
Now, the box, and the items inside it, are not the things you purchased, and may change. In fact, treasure chests change often. If what you say was true, PWE would be pursued everytime they change the treasure chests you can loot in game. What if someone bought the keys to loot the tenes before the chest change, then came back from holydays just to find that, for example, all the nightmare chests were gone and replaced with sharandar chests? Should he pursue PWE for that? You do not purchase the chest itself or the items inside it, but only the key to open them.
Plain, simple, and logic. I'm not against anyone, but these are facts.
Y
Agreed 100%. Now, that being said, I DO AGREE that they way Cryptic is going about this nerf is extremely shady. When it happened with the Stalwart's set, I was furious, and I don't even play my level 60 GF. There were guys who invested a ton of time and energy into their GFs with no compensation after the nerf. That's downright terrible business!
I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I noticed the poor business practices of Cryptic a long, long time ago, and it's one of the reasons I've chosen not to invest any money in this game. I've played MMOs before and have purchase products with real money, but once I got to a PWE game, I found their business model repulsive. I'm truly sorry for everyone who invested their time and money into this game, but that was your choice. Cryptic has done nothing illegal or anything against their ToS.
Correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't use, or have any Tenes.
But I don't believe Tene procs can crit. 3% of your health in necrotic damage. That's it.
So having a perfect vorpal, or no vorpal has nothing to do with the actual damage Tenes do.
Its the amount of Tenes equipped, and the amount of base health a player has.
The most I've ever noticed being hit by greaters was around 900 I think.
From what i know, they can only do that, and with necrotic damage they should pass through defenses (Armor, deflection and other resistances). But should be dodgeable, which they are not. Yet, i've read the same people saying they were fine the way they are even weeks or months ago. Just now they noticed that they should not also pass through dodges. But they are fast at pointing out that necrotic damage should pass though all resistances. So how can i trust the same people saying now that they tested tenes and they are not OP? That's why i'd like a true confrontation with devs where they can explain why the want to do some changes, and get replies.
3% hp on a sentinel 37k hp build or so, or on a GF 33k+ hp build, means 370x3= 1100 damage or 330x3= 990 damage per tene. With 6 or 7 slotted you have more or less 7k burst damage if all 6-7 proc at the same time. On top of your normal damage. This is, on very tanky builds made to survive against multiple opponents. For a tanky TR with 28k hp it's 840x6/7, which should be around 5k+ damage on top of normal damage.
If i'm correct.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
From what i know, they can only do that, and with necrotic damage they should pass through defenses (Armor, deflection and other resistances). But should be dodgeable, which they are not. Yet, i've read the same people saying they were fine the way they are even weeks or months ago. Just now they noticed that they should not also pass through dodges. But they are fast at pointing out that necrotic damage should pass though all resistances. So how can i trust the same people saying now that they tested tenes and they are not OP? That's why i'd like a true confrontation with devs where they can explain why the want to do some changes, and get replies.
3% hp on a sentinel 37k hp build or so, or on a GF 33k+ hp build, means 370x3= 1100 damage or 330x3= 990 damage per tene. With 6 or 7 slotted you have more or less 7k burst damage if all 6-7 proc at the same time. On top of your normal damage. This is, on very tanky builds made to survive against multiple opponents. For a tanky TR with 28k hp it's 840x6/7, which should be around 5k+ damage on top of normal damage.
If i'm correct.
The people who say Tenebrous are OP are everyone who fights against players with Tenebrous.
The people who say Tenebrous are NOT OP are everyone who has Tenebrous and constantly stomps people without Tenebrous.
Never thought of it like this. Excellent point. I definitely don't feel bad for Tene users now =P
The same reasoning can be done for any player who spent money to get his gear/ enchants.
For example: a perfect vorpal may cost around 8 mil AD or so, may be less, may be more. I can spend lots of time to loot and craft, gain AD and buy from AH, or i can buy stuff for zen with $, like, for example, Keys, sell it till i have 8 mil AD and buy that perfect vorpal. It's a lot of money spent. What if cryptic nerfs Vorpal? Should i scream to them "hey, i spend 1000$ for that vorpal, give my money back!
You would say "but you could get it in game". Sure. The same goes for tenes. You could loot epic stuff, sell it in the AH, convert AD to zen with the Exchange and buy the Keys, then loot the boxes and open them.
As i said, it just would be kind of them if they would consider that many tene users spent (and gave to them) lots of money to have such enchants fast, and give them a compensation.
On the other hand, each enchant should be different but not overall more effective than another enchant. That's balance. T2 armors are all different, but overall there's not an armor that is "better" than the other. This means that each build and class can get a different armor to have a different ability/ specialty, while not being less effective overall. Llantis himself said that tenes are BiS for PvP. Which means that a tene user will outclass a "other enchant of your choice" user in PvP. To me, this kinda kills variety at very competitive levels, since any player looking to be competitive would go for tank build + gtenes.
And that's why, so far, i've yet to see a GWF tha tis not sentinel regeneration tank+ stacked tenes in a competitive PvP guild.
I'd love to see a video of a different GWF build in a LS or ET or any other top PvP guild.
The people who say Tenebrous are OP are everyone who fights against players with Tenebrous.
The people who say Tenebrous are NOT OP are everyone who has Tenebrous and constantly stomps people without Tenebrous.
I can't say tenes are OP cause i never tested them, but i can't even trust someone who claims to have tested them, but didn't mention in past discussions, over the months, that tenes were able to pass through dodges, even if it was not supposed to happen.
I recall other discussion and the same players saying, months ago, that tenes were fine and balanced. Now they say that ok, the dodge nerf is spot on. Mmmh... weren't they already fine months ago? Or may be even that point of view is a bit flawed? And if it was flawed the first time, why can't it be flawed now?
On the other side, they are right when they say that you can't nerf necrotic damage only on 1 enchant.
It's a difficult matter that could use a deeper discussion with the devs.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I can't say tenes are OP cause i never tested them, but i can't even trust someone who claims to have tested them, but didn't mention in past discussions, over the months, that tenes were able to pass through dodges, even if it was not supposed to happen.
I recall other discussion and the same players saying, months ago, that tenes were fine and balanced. Now they say that ok, the dodge nerf is spot on. Mmmh... weren't they already fine months ago? Or may be even that point of view is a bit flawed? And if it was flawed the first time, why can't it be flawed now?
On the other side, they are right when they say that you can't nerf necrotic damage only on 1 enchant.
It's a difficult matter that could use a deeper discussion with the devs.
My previous post was actually just meant for humor. :cool:
My previous post was actually just meant for humor. :cool:
I know it, but people here jump at you for nothing, so it's better to point things out
I can imagine some smart guy picking up your joke and start a flame out of it.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I know it, but people here jump at you for nothing, so it's better to point things out
I can imagine some smart guy picking up your joke and start a flame out of it.
Agreed, posters here are notorious for being attackers, acusers, blamers and flamers. Sad that they have to live with themselves.
I can't say tenes are OP cause i never tested them, but i can't even trust someone who claims to have tested them, but didn't mention in past discussions, over the months, that tenes were able to pass through dodges, even if it was not supposed to happen.
I recall other discussion and the same players saying, months ago, that tenes were fine and balanced. Now they say that ok, the dodge nerf is spot on. Mmmh... weren't they already fine months ago? Or may be even that point of view is a bit flawed? And if it was flawed the first time, why can't it be flawed now?
On the other side, they are right when they say that you can't nerf necrotic damage only on 1 enchant.
It's a difficult matter that could use a deeper discussion with the devs.
Can you dodge damage from other dots or are they affected by defensive stats? Let's make a list and answer this:
TR Bleed
Frozen Power Transfer
Plague Fire
Terror
Lightning
Lifedrinker
Flaming
Bilethorn
Frost
Holy Avenger
Bloodtheft
Briartwine
Fireburst
Frostburn
Thunderhead
Are all of these are reduced by your defenses, can they be dodged, or be deflected? Devs if you change this enchant, you need to change ALL of these and I'm sure there are many other class abilities I left out.
As it stands now tenebrous is fairly balanced for a TR or CW class in terms of overall dps, it frontloads the damage and it can be argued that not being able to dodge and the damage going through ITC are issues as well. Like I said if it's 15-20% damage for 1800-2100 stat points, I'm 100% sure those put in some combination of power, crit, and arm pen will make up that 15-20% damage. The real problem comes with GWF and GF, the enchants are way too powerful for these classes, making 30-35% of their overall dps. They are so powerful after the patch even that they will still use them. Now you nerf an enchant for half of your classes while the other half will still use them and not have to change. This is my problem with the proposed nerf as it was stated by the devs before.
I think that stacked GT tank builds, like GT sents and GFs, have a really weird mechanic.
It's true that GT damage is based on current HP, but i think that the flaw in some points of view is cause they are used to think looking at their matches premade vs premade.
In such matches, you're never at full HP. There's Always some high level enemy attacking you. But in normal pugs? If there's a DC with the sent/ GF? Out of Lemonade Stand vs Enemy team kind of PvP, there are many situations in which a sentinel tank or a GF tank with stacked tenes can be at full, or almost full HP. A TR attacking out of stealth is at full HP. A CW attacking from the distance is at full HP.
Plus, a GF entering a brawl will point at 1 guy and charge him. It will be his 1st attack and he will be at full HP. Considering the chain prone mechanic of GFs in PvP, it's possible to be killed by tenes without being able to react. I'm talking about pugs, which are the majority of the matches. It's not uncommon to be at full HP when attacking. And, in fact, the problems are when such builds enter the pug PvP, and you never have problems when they are in a high level premade vs premade. But the latter is a minority of matches, and you've to look at the enchants/ builds in a global point of view, considering the most common scenery. A GT sentinel entering a pug (i've fough a bunch of them) can hardly be countered by the enemy pug. Far more than a build filled with rank 10 darks.
It's just different from rank 10 darks cause while rank 10 deliver a constant increase of damage to armored enemies, GTenes stacked deliver a monster burst damage if used by high HP sentinels or GFs.
Also, while rank 10 are effective the same way for all classes (you get the same ArP on a GF, a GWF or a TR), GTenes damage is far better on a 37-40k hp sentinel compared to a 27-28k hp TR or a CW.
It's true that you sacrifice stats by slotting tenebrous enchants, but it's also true that no stat in the game lets you deliver 7k burst damage on a GF or sentinel. And in PvP i would say that burst damage is what count the most.
So, obviously, an enchant that can deliver such burst damage outclasses the other enchants, when used on top of a tank regeneration build.
ArP alone is not enough. Crit is needed. To have more crit, you need to sacrifice defensive stats compared to the tene build. A Tene build can have a full focused tank build, while achieving a high burst damage every 20 seconds.
Just guessing, no math. But i would say Burst damage in PvP > than constant damage
Things i can say i agree with is the tene damage being dogeable, and that if by chance the enchant becomes useless, they should just remove it and give an Astral Diamond refund to the owners comparable to the price of the enchant in the AH before the nerf announce.
Also, i agree that if necrotic damage is supposed to pass through all defenses, you can't change it just for 1 enchant.
On the other hand, i can't just trust a bunch of guys, no matter how experienced they are, and be sure that the enchant is balanced the way it is. I guess cryptic makes its own tests and has its own math. Would be good a confrontation between the part of community that tested the enchant and uses it, and the devs, to clear the matter behind GTenes.
They're now testing it, so nothing is marked in stone already.
You make the correct points pando. The argument that people are giving up stats to use tenes is a weak one considering the tradeoffs. You gain much more than you lose by using Tenes, plus the builds that use them are stacking HP on top of it. It creates ridiculous burst juggernauts that can only be countered by other players that have spent insane amounts of AD to fight them (i.e. a few guilds in the game).
No rank 10 enchants can give you the same results in pvp. The people who are defending tenebrous enchants are those that want to dominate players through gear. I'll happily fight a person in rank 10s, and perfects all day long over a person stacking greater tenes. Sure they may have an advantage, but skill can go a long way towards lowering that advantage.
I asked you to point out who was banned, you failed at doing so and changed subject back to hearsay stuff, I really do wonder who's the 16 y/o but then again since i don't have ethics I should care very little of what some random has to say to me.
I'm not going to name names in a forums (nice attempt to get me banned). I actually like one of the guys anyway so I'm not going to shame him publicly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't most of your officers get banned like 2 weeks ago? I don't know why a guildy would have cause to lie to me about that.
Also, the 16 year old comment was from other guild members who have told me that you are in fact only 16, so it wasn't just a putdown I was throwing out there (maybe you've turned 17 since then, if so happy belated birthday). It's a fact that most teenagers haven't fully developed a strong sense of morals. That is all I was saying.
what if they buffed the others enchants instead nerfing tenes? I mean, after stacking power/armp/critical don't make these stats lose too much efficiency?
ofc, regen, defense could remain the same math, but it feels <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> after stacking 2.5k of something that something gives so little difference.
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
That's because it's the BIS pvp enchant, we tend to recruit people with BIS items, mind blown right?
And apparently losing that advantage is going to be a severe hindrance to your crew. The bottom line... either deal with the impending nerf or move onto another game if it's that big of a deal.
what if they buffed the others enchants instead nerfing tenes? I mean, after stacking power/armp/critical don't make these stats lose too much efficiency?
ofc, regen, defense could remain the same math, but it feels <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> after stacking 2.5k of something that something gives so little difference.
That would seem to make sense but then it affect PvE (boss killtimes, etc...). Plus it likely would require more work than the devs are willing to devote to the matter. Nerfing is always easier.
I dunno why we even bother. The fix for plague fire was coming soon, and it's been broken since the middle of JUNE. Could be a year before they actually change tenebrous. haha
And apparently losing that advantage is going to be a severe hindrance to your crew. The bottom line... either deal with the impending nerf or move onto another game if it's that big of a deal.
I'm still amazed that no one has answered this question:
If you're the best gamers, who cares of an enchant gets nerfed? You'll still be the best, right? A simple nerf isn't going to hinder your skills, is it?
once again, we must repeat, this is not about being worried of loosing the best enchant, it about the nerf being fundamentally flawed ... and if you need me to explain why again then just go read the thread for once
I'm still amazed that no one has answered this question:
If you're the best gamers, who cares of an enchant gets nerfed? You'll still be the best, right? A simple nerf isn't going to hinder your skills, is it?
Since you and kidbs are both apparently blind, ill repeat what I already explained:
It's not about the stupid enchant, its about the decision on how to REWORK them and WHEN.
Like i said in my first reply after this update, its not about balance, good players should have confidence in their skill and will figure out another way to stay at the top, it's more about this type of reply and decission "hai guys this is the new nerf, deal wid it afkbbqkthx".
To kidbs: You're making a fool of yourself, stating that someone was banned is not shaming, its a fact, so why don't you go ahead and do that, STATE FACTS. Instead every reply you make ends with hearsay "oh i heard one of you got banned 2 weeks ago, I really don't know but ill throw it out there to change the subject and make me look cool".
and thanks for confirming you know no one from my guild, you are 10~ years off of my real age, kid.
once again, we must repeat, this is not about being worried of loosing the best enchant, it about the nerf being fundamentally flawed ... and if you need me to explain why again then just go read the thread for once
Okay, let's address your two complaints: Timing and changes to the nerf.
1) Timing: Since when has Cryptic been quick to fix anything? How long did it take them to nerf HV? Stalwarts? Why are you complaining about this? Cryptic does that on their own time. To me, this seems exactly in character with fixes they've done in the past. At least they're consistent.
2) You want the nerf to be nerfed differently: So do I. I'd like the stupid things gone from the game completely. However, neither you nor I are on the development team, so we really don't have a say.
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Let's wait 1 month, after that they gonna nerf perf. vorpal cuz it's better than every other dps enchant in most situations!
U heared it here first!
I also give the next tr nerfs 1 month cuz of all the qqing about throwing stuff in stealth and lashing critz!
When they gonna fix the gs bug in pvp? mh maybe like... 5 month when we are lucky or they dont find any more stuff to nerf.
Another option other than the bugged/broken barkshield to combat tene builds in a single enchant saving people from having to put in there own work and effort themselves to create the build to combat the tene builds (clearly that is too much work or thinking for people to do to combat the thinking and work "many not all" have undergone to do there tene build)
I do find it disappointing a lot of this community would rather roll over and say an item is over powered rather than find the knowledge to just counter them. Half of our top members do not even have a single tene on them including several of our top A-Team members.
FooSoo Lemonade Stand.
Nobody complains about R10s, or Perfects (OK I saw very few "complaints" about perfect SF on DCs, but they're rare).
IMO, the true power of GTEs is their ability to stack and be put in regular offense slots.
Cryptic shoud:
- Make GTE's better
- make a Perfect version available
- auto-remove them from armors in patch and put them in inventory
- convert them to a weapon enchant
This way we achieve what such a powerful enchant should be: unique. Tenes should not stack, and tenes should not be available to be used in combination with other powerful stuff such as a Perfect Vorpal.
Just my 2 cents.
Correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't use, or have any Tenes.
But I don't believe Tene procs can crit. 3% of your health in necrotic damage. That's it.
So having a perfect vorpal, or no vorpal has nothing to do with the actual damage Tenes do.
Its the amount of Tenes equipped, and the amount of base health a player has.
The most I've ever noticed being hit by greaters was around 900 I think.
It's not about their synergy with vorpals, which I don't think it exists. It's about them stacking 7 times, scaling with HP, AND being an addition to an already powerful weapon enhancement (most of the times).
What I'm saying is that Tenes should be buffed, should be allowed to be merged in Perfect version, and should be converted to a weapon enchant.
Why?
Because such powerful effects should not stack and should be mutually exclusive.
This way the server cooldown will be OK, and the necrotic damage going through everything will also be OK, and a new tene will still be very good, but just another option, instead of THE option to go to if you want top PvP.
They just need to follow the same set of rules everything else does.
Taking into affect defensive stats is a good change. Should have been like that since the beginning.
I asked you to point out who was banned, you failed at doing so and changed subject back to hearsay stuff, I really do wonder who's the 16 y/o but then again since i don't have ethics I should care very little of what some random has to say to me.
That's because it's the BIS pvp enchant, we tend to recruit people with BIS items, mind blown right?
I'll say it again: no one purchased the enchant. People bought the key to open the box. That's what you've been given for your money.
It would've been different if tenes were only available to buy for real $, but that's not the case. There's a zen shop, and one option is to purchase an item with real $. The item you guys bought was the key. And it worked as said: opened a box.
Now, the box, and the items inside it, are not the things you purchased, and may change. In fact, treasure chests change often. If what you say was true, PWE would be pursued everytime they change the treasure chests you can loot in game. What if someone bought the keys to loot the tenes before the chest change, then came back from holydays just to find that, for example, all the nightmare chests were gone and replaced with sharandar chests? Should he pursue PWE for that? You do not purchase the chest itself or the items inside it, but only the key to open them.
Plain, simple, and logic. I'm not against anyone, but these are facts.
You can complain cause you spent real money on such items and now they get changed, but the fact is, it was not your only option (you can gain AD in game and change them in the zen-AD Exchange), it was your choice, and the in-game items and loots are subject to changes cause it's the right of the devs to change them at will.
Also, people says tenes were only obtainable through real money. It's false. A key costs 120-150 zen (do not remember). The change is usually between 350 AD per zen and 360 AD per zen. Do you math, it's roughly 50-60k or so AD changed into zen to get a key. A guy said he can gain 3 mil or so in a week, and i'm sure top guilds and top players are able to do so. This means they could actually get the Keys, open the box and loot the tenes at the cost of 0$.
So, it's simply not true that people "purchased" the tenes. You must understand that you did not purchase the enchant. You used real money to have Keys in the faster (but not the only) way, open more boxes and get tenes faster/ more easily.
However, we know that some users spent lots of money just to have fast Keys and craft GTenes faster/ more easily, so i do agree that would be fair to compensate these users if they get nerfed that much.
Never thought of it like this. Excellent point. I definitely don't feel bad for Tene users now =P
Agreed 100%. Now, that being said, I DO AGREE that they way Cryptic is going about this nerf is extremely shady. When it happened with the Stalwart's set, I was furious, and I don't even play my level 60 GF. There were guys who invested a ton of time and energy into their GFs with no compensation after the nerf. That's downright terrible business!
I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I noticed the poor business practices of Cryptic a long, long time ago, and it's one of the reasons I've chosen not to invest any money in this game. I've played MMOs before and have purchase products with real money, but once I got to a PWE game, I found their business model repulsive. I'm truly sorry for everyone who invested their time and money into this game, but that was your choice. Cryptic has done nothing illegal or anything against their ToS.
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From what i know, they can only do that, and with necrotic damage they should pass through defenses (Armor, deflection and other resistances). But should be dodgeable, which they are not. Yet, i've read the same people saying they were fine the way they are even weeks or months ago. Just now they noticed that they should not also pass through dodges. But they are fast at pointing out that necrotic damage should pass though all resistances. So how can i trust the same people saying now that they tested tenes and they are not OP? That's why i'd like a true confrontation with devs where they can explain why the want to do some changes, and get replies.
3% hp on a sentinel 37k hp build or so, or on a GF 33k+ hp build, means 370x3= 1100 damage or 330x3= 990 damage per tene. With 6 or 7 slotted you have more or less 7k burst damage if all 6-7 proc at the same time. On top of your normal damage. This is, on very tanky builds made to survive against multiple opponents. For a tanky TR with 28k hp it's 840x6/7, which should be around 5k+ damage on top of normal damage.
If i'm correct.
The people who say Tenebrous are OP are everyone who fights against players with Tenebrous.
The people who say Tenebrous are NOT OP are everyone who has Tenebrous and constantly stomps people without Tenebrous.
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The same reasoning can be done for any player who spent money to get his gear/ enchants.
For example: a perfect vorpal may cost around 8 mil AD or so, may be less, may be more. I can spend lots of time to loot and craft, gain AD and buy from AH, or i can buy stuff for zen with $, like, for example, Keys, sell it till i have 8 mil AD and buy that perfect vorpal. It's a lot of money spent. What if cryptic nerfs Vorpal? Should i scream to them "hey, i spend 1000$ for that vorpal, give my money back!
You would say "but you could get it in game". Sure. The same goes for tenes. You could loot epic stuff, sell it in the AH, convert AD to zen with the Exchange and buy the Keys, then loot the boxes and open them.
As i said, it just would be kind of them if they would consider that many tene users spent (and gave to them) lots of money to have such enchants fast, and give them a compensation.
On the other hand, each enchant should be different but not overall more effective than another enchant. That's balance. T2 armors are all different, but overall there's not an armor that is "better" than the other. This means that each build and class can get a different armor to have a different ability/ specialty, while not being less effective overall. Llantis himself said that tenes are BiS for PvP. Which means that a tene user will outclass a "other enchant of your choice" user in PvP. To me, this kinda kills variety at very competitive levels, since any player looking to be competitive would go for tank build + gtenes.
And that's why, so far, i've yet to see a GWF tha tis not sentinel regeneration tank+ stacked tenes in a competitive PvP guild.
I'd love to see a video of a different GWF build in a LS or ET or any other top PvP guild.
I can't say tenes are OP cause i never tested them, but i can't even trust someone who claims to have tested them, but didn't mention in past discussions, over the months, that tenes were able to pass through dodges, even if it was not supposed to happen.
I recall other discussion and the same players saying, months ago, that tenes were fine and balanced. Now they say that ok, the dodge nerf is spot on. Mmmh... weren't they already fine months ago? Or may be even that point of view is a bit flawed? And if it was flawed the first time, why can't it be flawed now?
On the other side, they are right when they say that you can't nerf necrotic damage only on 1 enchant.
It's a difficult matter that could use a deeper discussion with the devs.
My previous post was actually just meant for humor. :cool:
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I know it, but people here jump at you for nothing, so it's better to point things out
I can imagine some smart guy picking up your joke and start a flame out of it.
Agreed, posters here are notorious for being attackers, acusers, blamers and flamers. Sad that they have to live with themselves.
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Can you dodge damage from other dots or are they affected by defensive stats? Let's make a list and answer this:
TR Bleed
Frozen Power Transfer
Plague Fire
Terror
Lightning
Lifedrinker
Flaming
Bilethorn
Frost
Holy Avenger
Bloodtheft
Briartwine
Fireburst
Frostburn
Thunderhead
Are all of these are reduced by your defenses, can they be dodged, or be deflected? Devs if you change this enchant, you need to change ALL of these and I'm sure there are many other class abilities I left out.
As it stands now tenebrous is fairly balanced for a TR or CW class in terms of overall dps, it frontloads the damage and it can be argued that not being able to dodge and the damage going through ITC are issues as well. Like I said if it's 15-20% damage for 1800-2100 stat points, I'm 100% sure those put in some combination of power, crit, and arm pen will make up that 15-20% damage. The real problem comes with GWF and GF, the enchants are way too powerful for these classes, making 30-35% of their overall dps. They are so powerful after the patch even that they will still use them. Now you nerf an enchant for half of your classes while the other half will still use them and not have to change. This is my problem with the proposed nerf as it was stated by the devs before.
You make the correct points pando. The argument that people are giving up stats to use tenes is a weak one considering the tradeoffs. You gain much more than you lose by using Tenes, plus the builds that use them are stacking HP on top of it. It creates ridiculous burst juggernauts that can only be countered by other players that have spent insane amounts of AD to fight them (i.e. a few guilds in the game).
No rank 10 enchants can give you the same results in pvp. The people who are defending tenebrous enchants are those that want to dominate players through gear. I'll happily fight a person in rank 10s, and perfects all day long over a person stacking greater tenes. Sure they may have an advantage, but skill can go a long way towards lowering that advantage.
I'm not going to name names in a forums (nice attempt to get me banned). I actually like one of the guys anyway so I'm not going to shame him publicly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't most of your officers get banned like 2 weeks ago? I don't know why a guildy would have cause to lie to me about that.
Also, the 16 year old comment was from other guild members who have told me that you are in fact only 16, so it wasn't just a putdown I was throwing out there (maybe you've turned 17 since then, if so happy belated birthday). It's a fact that most teenagers haven't fully developed a strong sense of morals. That is all I was saying.
ofc, regen, defense could remain the same math, but it feels <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> after stacking 2.5k of something that something gives so little difference.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
And apparently losing that advantage is going to be a severe hindrance to your crew. The bottom line... either deal with the impending nerf or move onto another game if it's that big of a deal.
That would seem to make sense but then it affect PvE (boss killtimes, etc...). Plus it likely would require more work than the devs are willing to devote to the matter. Nerfing is always easier.
There is a guild recently formed duping these enchants among others and this fact is becoming well known on the server...
Their entire A Team in PvP and slowly more and more of them are decked out in Tenebrous... with Perfect Vorpals.
Fix the enchantment
Ban the ***holes
Fix the duping...
Edit: here is one of their players with all identifiable information erased...
I am not OP .... LULZ
GG Cryptic / PW...
They built their characters like this and didn't pay a dime for it...
Yeah..Tene not OP.... PFFFT
I'm still amazed that no one has answered this question:
If you're the best gamers, who cares of an enchant gets nerfed? You'll still be the best, right? A simple nerf isn't going to hinder your skills, is it?
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Since you and kidbs are both apparently blind, ill repeat what I already explained:
To kidbs: You're making a fool of yourself, stating that someone was banned is not shaming, its a fact, so why don't you go ahead and do that, STATE FACTS. Instead every reply you make ends with hearsay "oh i heard one of you got banned 2 weeks ago, I really don't know but ill throw it out there to change the subject and make me look cool".
and thanks for confirming you know no one from my guild, you are 10~ years off of my real age, kid.
Okay, let's address your two complaints: Timing and changes to the nerf.
1) Timing: Since when has Cryptic been quick to fix anything? How long did it take them to nerf HV? Stalwarts? Why are you complaining about this? Cryptic does that on their own time. To me, this seems exactly in character with fixes they've done in the past. At least they're consistent.
2) You want the nerf to be nerfed differently: So do I. I'd like the stupid things gone from the game completely. However, neither you nor I are on the development team, so we really don't have a say.
There, all issues solved.
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