I honestly don't see how it is OP. I switched from stalwart (10.5k power) to a mix of non-set epics (~10k AD total) and my damage went up BIG time. At least an overall 20-30% increase, while losing 4.4k power. Power is a garbage stat anyway, you need crit/Arp to do any damage.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
The real problem with the set change is that it changes the value of ability scores for Guardian Fighters. Due the Stalwart setbonus the CON stat is an offensive one and due to its additional defensive bonusses it was superior to STR and DEX. If the Stalwart's 4 piece bonus gets changed to a mechanic not relying on maximum HP the offensive part of the CON stat gets lost. Currently there is no possibility I know of to change your race or your initial ability score roll. As one can only align stats 4 times (you cannot decide at level 30 and 60) the initial roll and race choice is way more important than the stat destribution later on.
If you play a Guardian Fighter and you want to max out your PvE DPS the nerf to the Stalwart Set would require you to delete your current character (most likely Tiefling) and start a new one (most likely Half-Orc) and then roll the stats that now are superior to CON (STR/DEX). The effect of this of course is that you have to spent around 1.5 million AD if you want to get yourself a Timeless Set, you have to spent 0.8m for the Ioun Stone, you have to get yourself another CN weapon set and get a new Greater Plaguefire enchant for it, as the other is of course bound on your old character. Talking about enchants, you need a whole new set of enchants (hopefully you didnt have rank 9 or 10s)... and of course rings, neck, waist...
The problem of the Nerf of the Stalwart Set as it is planned is the change to the mechanic. Cryptic should NEVER change the benefit you gain from ability score points, when there is no way to change your initial roll and race choice. The only option players have to change these is to delete the character and start the new one and as all equipment items are bound on equip you would have to reobtain everything. Many players see equipment as a form of achievement, thus making players have to reobtain their equipment equals losing these achievements.
Also, this nerf is being done in what is called a "Live" game, not in a beta phase. Not only will your achievements be lost, but you cannot be certain about what will come next. 90% of the GF's I know of will switch to Timeless Hero set. Besides feeling bad about having the wrong race and the wrong initial ability score roll to max DPS with the Timeless set, you also need to fear Cryptic nerfing the Timeless set. If sets get nerfed to dead in a live game how can you be sure that in a month or so there won't be the next nerf news ("As 90% of the Guardian Fighter's were using the Timeless hero set we reworked the four pierce bonus: You now get +10% Running Speed for 4 seconds when your Guard Meter runs out!")
What many people suggested in this thread was changing the Stalwart Bulwark to a T2 Set and decreasing it's bonus while keeping the mechanic. The argument ambisinisterr hold in favor of the decision was the fact that an increase in power equal to 25% of your HP is simply to much. GF's with a Max HP of 28k (should be an average number) get 7000 power from the set bonus, which is too much. I agree with that, but the math you did, that the set bonus would have to be 5% max to be balanced is incorrect. As a Guardian Fighter with the Conqueror last feat stacking Power is very easy. An increase of 7000 power DOES NOT equal 7000 power points on gear, but an increase of 3500 equipment power points (as the Conqueror feat does not increase the power you get from the set bonus).
What do other classes get from their T2 set bonusses? Trickster Rogues get 1023 Power and Recovery from Swashbuckling Captain. The Great Weapon Fighters get 1260 Power and Recovery from Avatar of War. Thats 2046 and 2520 stat points compared to the 3500 stat points the Conqueror Guardian Fighters get. Additionally Swashbuckling and Avatar of War offer an offensive 2 piece bonus that Stalwart was lacking of course. Still it is not too far from balanced and I will explain why.
Many theorycrafters say that Power suffers no Diminishing Returns. But that is not fully correct. Just like you need more and more CRIT to increase your CRIT chance by 1% you also DO NEED MORE AND MORE POWER to increase your damage by 1%. That being said a boost to a single stat like the Stalwart's 4-piece bonus did offer ON A CLASS THAT ALREADY HAS A VERY HIGH AMOUNT OF THAT STAT (like Conqueror GF's do!) will suffer very hard from Dimishing Returns. Also there will be many occasions where the set bonus will not be even up with 5 stacks, most notably pvp.
In my opinion the suggestion of making the set a T2 (switching it with Grand Regent) and reducing it's set bonus is fine. For example the set bonus could be "Adds 1.5% of your Maximum HP in power. Stacks 6 times. This bonus is affected by Reckless Attacker." The set bonus would then add 9% of Max HP when it reaches maximum stacks. If you have 28k Life this would equal 2520 Power, which is fair compared to the 2460 points Avatar of War gives concerning you suffer way more Diminishing Returns, as its a bonus to a single stat rather than two stats and that you have no offensive 2 piece bonus. Also the Defense and Deflection stats on Stalwart should be reduced by ~10-20% to reduce its defensive effectiveness. I very much agree with the point that a set should not be the best defensive and offensive set at the same time, but decreasing the bonus to 9%, while also increasing the stack number making it a bit harder to maintain the bonus and while lowering the defensive attributes of the set a little bit, making the maintaining of the bonus (getting hit by mobs or players) harder (as you lose more HP) seems fine to me. Also making the bonus stack with the Conqueror feat would make the Set still a good choice for Conqueror GF's, while not being OP on Defensive GF's. The real problem of the Stalwart Set: Offering the BEST on the offensive AND defensive side would be gone. You can no longer make a defensive feated GF and get the full offensive out of the set. Also the set would not offer a better bonus than the other melee classes T2 sets, making it not only balanced within the class itself but also balanced compared to other classes.
Edit: What I want to add is that there is no valid reason why a T1 Set should not be changed to a T2. The argument that T2 is harder to obtain is simply invalid. From open beta on the T2 instances had all kinds of glitches that were farmed by so many people getting the T2 equipment into the Auction House at very cheap prices. Before the Mad Dragon's big spawn was changed recently the Tier 1 Helm was the hardest item to obtain, thus making collecting the full T1 set harder than completing the full T2.
I honestly don't see how it is OP. I switched from stalwart (10.5k power) to a mix of non-set epics (~10k AD total) and my damage went up BIG time. At least an overall 20-30% increase, while losing 4.4k power. Power is a garbage stat anyway, you need crit/Arp to do any damage.
4.4k power seems like an unrealistically low estimate of Stalwart's benefit, unless you're averaging it out over time in an environment that doesn't favor the set (PvP, possibly).
4.4k power would correspond to an HP pool of 4.4 / 0.25 = 17,600 HP. The minimum possible HP pool for a level 60 character is 19,000 HP. That's without CON bonuses, without equipment bonuses, and without feat bonuses.
Realistically, a GF should achieve something like 25k HP without even trying. 30k is probably closer to the mark, for most epic-equipped GFs. At 25-30k health, you're looking at a bonus from Stalwart of 6,250-7,500 Power. In other words, it should roughly double your character's initial Power stat, based on the numbers you've posted.
That's not a trivial bonus. Power certainly isn't the most efficient offensive stat out there; it's actually rather weak relative to Crit/ArPen, on a point-for-point basis. But just because 1 point of power isn't equivalent to 1 point of Crit/ArPen, it doesn't follow that any arbitrary amount of Crit/Arpen can compete with several times as much Power.
4.4k power seems like an unrealistically low estimate of Stalwart's benefit, unless you're averaging it out over time in an environment that doesn't favor the set (PvP, possibly).
It's a net 4.4k. As in with stalwart on and all 5 stacks I have 10.5k, and with my non-set epics and 2 pc timeless I have 6.1k power, but I also have a bunch more Crit/ArP/Recovery. I am speaking about PvP, but even in PvE power alone with no Crit/ArP is vastly inferior to power + crit and ArP.
For PvE I do still wear my stalwart set for the added tankiness, but the difference in damage between having 0 stacks and 5 stacks honestly isn't that much, maybe like 1k damage on an encounter at most, so 2k ish if it crits. The bonus damage from the stalwart set would only make up 5% or less of my total damage dealt as the stacks are not consistently at 5 and the damage bonus is minor % wise. I just think if ~12k AD worth of "trash" gear can outperform the set in PvP then why nerf it? the damage bonus is already minor in PvE as our base power is doubled by conqueror capstone. As I said I go from 10.5k with all 5 stacks to 6.1k with no stacks, and that could be improved if I got some better gear.
Also I have a friend that is tank spec GF, he equipped stalwarts and was very . He went from like 2k power to 9k (he has nearly 0 crit/ArP) and his encounters only did like 10-15% more damage. If you want to a tank then wear t2 armor for the 1 ac and higher stats, and if you want to dps you get a lot out of other sets, probably also better to do 2 2pc bonuses.
I guess my reasoning is stalwarts is already far from BiS, HOWEVER, lots of people seem angry that they are making it completely worthless so why change it so drastically vs. just a small nerf? or even no nerf heh...
This just seems similar to the cleric nerf, nerfing something that is already too weak, I don't understand it. The only reason this is worn in PvE (myself included) is because so many people already bought it after reading how great it was on the forums, and they figure why buy all new gear for PvE when we can handle it with what we already own.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
cribstaxxx - I'm sorry to say but your friends that play GF don't know the class or how to stack stats with the class and DR's.
The reason the set is being nerf so hardcore is because it's the most broken 4set bonus in the game for GFs. My current STAL set:
DPS Build: 14.8k Power, 20% CRT, 24% ArP + G.Vorpal - No other GF came even close the amount of damage I was putting out with this build. Also I was able to maintain Menace up over 90% of the fights that's an additional 20% damage gain + CC immunity. While using Knights Valor to keep STAL stacks up 100% of fight and reduce all teams damage.
For PvP - I would use a Regen/Deflect build which is the "BEST" PvP build for GF's in competitive PvP. The build mimic's Sentinel GWFs and makes you nearly unbeatable 1v1. This is also why GCTRL now has a DC version that's doing the same thing.
The reason your friends damage was low with their STAL was they did not have an augment pet giving them their 20% CRT & ArP caps.
After this patch nothing will change expect players will just need to switch sets and change gear/enchants to reach the same #'s.
Regen/Deflect will still be OP in PvP.
Regen/Deflect will still be OP in PvE Tanking.
DPS GF's will still be OP in PvE.
Burst GF's will still be OP in PvP pugs.
All Cryptic is doing is lining their pockets with the cash players will have to spend to swap gear. I'll post a comprehensive guide with the info needed to design your own GF builds and some basic builds for new players after module 1 is released.
Right I know full tank build is terrible, I was just comparing to a full PvE tank spec and saying that is still wasn't a viable option. How do you get 20% Crit 24% ArP while wearing stalwarts in pvp? I don't even think that's possible with rank 10's. I am speaking purely about PvP, however am contrasting that it isn't that strong in PvE either as a well played and equally geared TR/GWF/CW will out dps you if you are actually performing your role as tank ie not 3 full damage encounters etc. I don't care about PvE on my GF, and I can guarantee stalwart is not the best PvP set, I know 15+ heavily geared GF's that I regularly play with (I have one as well) We have all tried stalwarts and have all found it inferior to other sets and even non-set epics/blues.
Some of these guys even have perfect vorpal/soulforged and greater tene's.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Right I know full tank build is terrible, I was just comparing to a full PvE tank spec and saying that is still wasn't a viable option. How do you get 20% Crit 24% ArP while wearing stalwarts in pvp? I don't even think that's possible with rank 10's. I am speaking purely about PvP, however am contrasting that it isn't that strong in PvE either as a well played and equally geared TR/GWF/CW will out dps you if you are actually performing your role as tank ie not 3 full damage encounters etc. I don't care about PvE on my GF, and I can guarantee stalwart is not the best PvP set, I know 15+ heavily geared GF's that I regularly play with (I have one as well) We have all tried stalwarts and have all found it inferior to other sets and even non-set epics/blues.
Some of these guys even have perfect vorpal/soulforged and greater tene's.
Cribstaxxx - I don't want this to turn into a flame war but I am considered the #1 Guardian Fighter in NW by some of the top PvP players across all servers. I've proven this in PvP on the PTR and have a good grasp on how the GF class works and enjoy GF theory. Burst GF's is great for Pug PvP but lacks survival in competitive PvP and unable to hold a point solo or vs. several opponents at once.
My GF's damage in PvE is near equal to TRs / CW / GWF - The reason is the massive amount of damage gained and stacking stats on your augment pet. Your statements show your lack of knowledge of the class and what does your damage. Cleave is over 50% of the damage the class does and why your goal should be to make Cleave do as much damage as possible. The encounters used should be to increase the damage of cleave or gain as much AP as possible to get Menace up for 20% damage boost. This is why you and your friends damage is lower than it should be.
PvP - STAL my damage is about 5-6K for Bull Charge, Lunge & Frontline surge / 10k+ with Daily. That means you can 1 rotation kill almost low HP class. Even if you don't kill them in 1 rotation you'll kill them 2nd rotation or kill a target that's below 50% HP.
STAL is the best PvP set hands down until patch and then Grand R or My Blue set with 11.6% Regen will be the best PvP Build until Cryptic nerfs something else.
It's a net 4.4k. As in with stalwart on and all 5 stacks I have 10.5k, and with my non-set epics and 2 pc timeless I have 6.1k power, but I also have a bunch more Crit/ArP/Recovery. I am speaking about PvP, but even in PvE power alone with no Crit/ArP is vastly inferior to power + crit and ArP.
Ah, so you're saying that the alternate equipment loadout gives you 2k+ more in power from the items themselves (or 1k+ if you have the Reckless Attacker feat, which I assume you do)? That makes sense.
I'm not sure about your conclusion, though. Leaving aside the practical/qualitative issue (how easy or hard it is to maintain Stalwart stacks in PvP), 6-8k power is a massive, massive damage bonus, and there's no reason that a different armor set should provide so much more Crit/Arp that Stalwart would lose numerically in the exchange. With a more consistent loadout of supplementary equipment (that is, the loadout of items you use on top of Stalwart versus the loadout of items you use on top of your alternative armor) -- all else being equal , in other words -- you should have higher DPS in the Stalwart gear, assuming you can consistently maintain full stacks of the set-bonus buff.
The only thing I can think is that you're over-loading on Defensive enchantment slots to stack HP with Stalwart, which is fine if you're looking for a combined survivability/damage boost, but it's not quite fair to compare Stalwart stacked with defensive supplements versus an alternate armor stacked with offensive supplements.
None of the above is to say that you're wrong not to wear Stalwart in PvP. As noted in previous posts, there may very well be very good qualitative reasons not to wear the set in PvP. I'm not arguing that Stalwart is unconditionally best-in-slot for all players and all situations -- but I think you've stacked the quantitative comparison too far in the other direction.
It's 1 attack and then it's depleted. They are removing the 4pc bonus from STAL pretty much and Grand R. is pretty much a no set bonus set too due to the very low power you gain.
If you think about it the ONLY set that has an actually decent set bonus is the T2 PvP set with 10% Movement speed and Knights Cap set.
It's 1 attack and then it's depleted. They are removing the 4pc bonus from STAL pretty much and Grand R. is pretty much a no set bonus set too due to the very low power you gain.
If you think about it the ONLY set that has an actually decent set bonus is the T2 PvP set with 10% Movement speed and Knights Cap set.
stalwart looks everyone knows that most dungeons are not balance making some classes useless GF cant tank OP and unlimited adds during boss fights they wont last long without heal even if youre a pure tank
only GF know that... people continue to claim that I should take aggro fo 20 adds in the same time and also survive. We can't tank (are useless in dungeons), can't do damage (to finish the same foundry I need 30 min with my GF lev 60 11.8k gs, and 10 min with my rogue lev 11 all gray weared!!)... we are totally useless. Stalwart was the only chance to deal some damge (i mean 12k with crit)... now we are totally useless and also totaly poor (months of gameplay wasted).
They want to see GF died. It's the weakest class, full of bugs, drowned in tears of crybabies who can not oneshot in pvp, without any decent set maybe except Timeless. It is time to quit. If you really really like this game, roll a rogue, otherwise quit the game.
They want to see GF died. It's the weakest class, full of bugs, drowned in tears of crybabies who can not oneshot in pvp, without any decent set maybe except Timeless. It is time to quit. If you really really like this game, roll a rogue, otherwise quit the game.
lol GF is far from dead and the STAL nerf only breaks 1 set which is easily replaced by other builds. The extreme builds I've posted with GF having nearly 15k Power with both CRT/ARP caps was only possible with STAL but... switching race going STR/DEX and using specific items it's still possible to reach the same damage without the survival STAL set gave.
DPS & Tank GF's still exist just not the Extreme DPS GF with good tanking stats. But you can still have great tanking and decent damage or very high damage GF and low tanking.
only GF know that... people continue to claim that I should take aggro fo 20 adds in the same time and also survive. We can't tank (are useless in dungeons), can't do damage (to finish the same foundry I need 30 min with my GF lev 60 11.8k gs, and 10 min with my rogue lev 11 all gray weared!!)... we are totally useless. Stalwart was the only chance to deal some damge (i mean 12k with crit)... now we are totally useless and also totaly poor (months of gameplay wasted).
They want to see GF died. It's the weakest class, full of bugs, drowned in tears of crybabies who can not oneshot in pvp, without any decent set maybe except Timeless. It is time to quit. If you really really like this game, roll a rogue, otherwise quit the game.
First of all: Foundries gonna be harder every level you over 10. Until you reach 60, you are far away from a point of be powerful before.
Second: What 'bugs' should exist on GF? I only see 2 bugs on PTS and Live. And these maybe can be explain by lagg ~150ms ping... or special conditions.
But in one point you are allright: We CAN'T tank 10+ mobs... Not with 800+ damage every hit of them(lol 55%+ DR!, but they hit far away from 1,6k!).
lol GF is far from dead and the STAL nerf only breaks 1 set which is easily replaced by other builds. The extreme builds I've posted with GF having nearly 15k Power with both CRT/ARP caps was only possible with STAL but... switching race going STR/DEX and using specific items it's still possible to reach the same damage without the survival STAL set gave.
DPS & Tank GF's still exist just not the Extreme DPS GF with good tanking stats. But you can still have great tanking and decent damage or very high damage GF and low tanking.
switching race? using specific items? Why I should restart from zero after three months?
Second: What 'bugs' should exist on GF? I only see 2 bugs on PTS and Live. And these maybe can be explain by lagg ~150ms ping... or special conditions.
- griffon wrath cooldown is not affected by recovery
- luging strike is easly blocked in pvp by any mage. Also if you luging strike against a mage they simply can push back you and you don't hit them.
- shield talent doesn't work
- some other feats are totally useless like pin down: 3 points to increase prone duration by 0.3!? Most of people does not have enough sensitivity to feel a difference so small --> This feat does not have any effect on gameplay
- Stun does not work in pvp: i see rogue run away stunned, mage teleporting while stunned and so on...
- block bug still exit even if less than in the past
and i stop here because this is not the bug section...
The problem is that GF
- don't tank
- don't deal damage
- don't control
- don't heal
- don't is unstoppable
it is a bad mix of everithing and so useless in the most of situations
- dungeons: the tank is usefull only in a t1 dungeon when the other members of party are just 60 still blue weared, so you help them to survive. In any other situation there always in an other class better than GF. Still think that TR tank bosses!!
- pvp: it's defense is totally useless when a CW block you until death or when a rogue use smoke bomb and deal 30k damage with one hit, and when gwf are unstoppable from the start to the end of match.
- quests: to finish the same quests require a GF the double of time than a rogue ad same with foundry. When I started my GF I took three hours to reach level 11 and pray for the first time. With my rogue I needed 1 hours and 15 minutes from creation to pray. When a GF reach level 60 the rogue that started with him is already in t2 dungeons and gained a lot o money selling items.
What is your in-game name? I'll look up your gear on gateway and see if you need to change things after patch.
Don't waste time, i quit GF and the game. But thank you for offering your help. I don't want to restart from zero. If you want to understand my point of view, read this
The problem is that GF
- don't tank
- don't deal damage
- don't control
- don't heal
- don't is unstoppable
it is a bad mix of everithing and so useless in the most of situations
Sorry to say but you sound like a bad GF or play with bad GFs.
GF is best tank in game.
GF deals nearly equal damage to TR/CW/GWF
GF has (3) Prone's
GF is #2 in healing
GWF is only class with unstoppable. GF is a better tank than GWF if that's what you mean by unstoppable.
If a GF is dieing to a CW 1v1 PvP then you are bad only class that can beat a good GF 1v1 is a TR or another GF.
how can you switch from halfling to human? how many GF do you have? Or you have 2 GF, or you need to restart from zero.
Don't waste time, i quit GF and the game. But thank you for offering your help. I don't want to restart from zero. If you want to understand my point of view, read this
I have 5 GF's (Orc, Tie, Dwarf, Human, Halfling) I also have an Elf that's not 60 yet. But I have 12 ALTs: 60 TR, 60 GWF, Several 60 GFs and others low levels for farming leadership.
When I switched from my human to halfling with my regen/deflect build it cost me 8Million AD and so I feel your pain. I'm currently broke and to switch some of my enchants to my human for PvE readiness it will cost me 5 Million + Ad. I have 2 full sets of gear for both my PET & Self which all Rank 8 enchants all built around STAL. I also have over 100 days in-game as I've been playing since BETA and just spent 3Million AD in enchants/gear to build my DPS STAL with the 14.8k Power to have the build nerfed a few weeks later. Really sucks and all of that gear/enchants will now need to be replaced or unsocketed to move to my Human.
I also spent 980k on a CAT for my haflling so I could PvE with her too but now that's worthless also as she will only be used for PvP.
So I understand your pain and frustration with a nerf like this and something the DEVs appear to not care about.
Did your stacks deplete after one single attack or when the time ran out, thus allowing for multiple hits with this outrageous 200 damage bonus?
1 attack only and its gone
and if you have armor enchants it will be gone too if it activates
so if you have briartwine(reflect) you cant even stack up to 5 it will always activate
Sorry to say but you sound like a bad GF or play with bad GFs.
GF is best tank in game.
GF deals nearly equal damage to TR/CW/GWF
GF has (3) Prone's
GF is #2 in healing
GWF is only class with unstoppable. GF is a better tank than GWF if that's what you mean by unstoppable.
If a GF is dieing to a CW 1v1 PvP then you are bad only class that can beat a good GF 1v1 is a TR or another GF.
Maybe I couldn't explain myself...
GF is best tank in game. Ok, but i's usless couse TR tank bosses, GF died agains adds. Also stoll now most of party don't want a GF inside. 2 CW or 2 TR are better.
GF deals nearly equal damage to TR/CW/GWF. It's not true!! No one deals same damage as a TR.
GF has (3) Prone's. Yes but nothing against CW and TR smoke bomb. We also have stuns, but nearly usless in pvp even if i read a lot of discussion in which people cry agains our stuns... but i see people continue do perform their actions while stunned. Or they are cheaters, or i'm blind.
GF is #2 in healing
GWF is only class with unstoppable. GF is a better tank than GWF if that's what you mean by unstoppable. I mean that gwf use usntoppable from start to end of a pvp match
I have 5 GF's (Orc, Tie, Dwarf, Human, Halfling) I also have an Elf that's not 60 yet. But I have 12 ALTs: 60 TR, 60 GWF, Several 60 GFs and others low levels for farming leadership.
When I switched from my human to halfling with my regen/deflect build it cost me 8Million AD and so I feel your pain. I'm currently broke and to switch some of my enchants to my human for PvE readiness it will cost me 5 Million + Ad. I have 2 full sets of gear for both my PET & Self which all Rank 8 enchants all built around STAL. I also have over 100 days in-game as I've been playing since BETA and just spent 3Million AD in enchants/gear to build my DPS STAL with the 14.8k Power to have the build nerfed a few weeks later. Really sucks and all of that gear/enchants will now need to be replaced or unsocketed to move to my Human.
I also spent 980k on a CAT for my haflling so I could PvE with her too but now that's worthless also as she will only be used for PvP.
So I understand your pain and frustration with a nerf like this and something the DEVs appear to not care about.
I don't know how much do you play, but i can't pass my life near neverwinter. Maximum amount of AD i reached was 1.6 million, one time, i don't have 8 million to switch. I played my GF around a mechanic that now doesn't exit anymore. I started a trip knowing i would be slower than you and many others, but thinking i was going somewhere. Devs simply take me and put againg at the start of my trip surely thinking that i will spend money to switch and restart, but i don't want to waste money and other time.
hinageshi79 - I have maybe 50-60Million AD in Gear/Enchants on my GF.
As I've said you lack experience with the class and why you believe these things. I've had guildmate's that are in BiS Gear/enchants surprised by the amount of damage my GF put out. Even on Draco my damage is near equal to that of a TR. The reason is because I know the class and how to do the most damage possible.
With the changes to TR, you'll see the gap get even closer between TR & GF or GF may out damage a TR.
0
thorizdenMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
I think you're talking apples and watermelons here. A GF with an experienced driver and really good gear can approach TR damage in BiS gear, but if the TR is well beyond just BiS and has also spent ~60 mill I don't believe you'll be close.
However, the main point is that most GF's haven't spent a million, much less 60 million, and that's what hinageshi79 is referencing.
I think you're talking apples and watermelons here. A GF with an experienced driver and really good gear can approach TR damage in BiS gear, but if the TR is well beyond just BiS and has also spent ~60 mill I don't believe you'll be close.
However, the main point is that most GF's haven't spent a million, much less 60 million, and that's what hinageshi79 is referencing.
The players in my guild are BiS Gear with Rank 8-10 Enchants and we are all end game gear. The reason the GF damage is so high is due to Knights Challenge 100% damage increase with a GF having nearly 15k power, 20% CRT, 24% ArP & Vorpal stacking about as much damage increase as possible. At last 25% of boss switching to Anvil the GF is doing 200% damage increase and anvil CRTs for 100k+ damage. My cleaves hit for 13k+ with normal damage around 6k-7k.
That's why my DPS is so high also the TR has to move around more than a GF.
TR's get a bad bleed or drop their bleed because of a bad hit or something their DPS drops alot while GF is just auto attacks.
The players in my guild are BiS Gear with Rank 8-10 Enchants and we are all end game gear. The reason the GF damage is so high is due to Knights Challenge 100% damage increase with a GF having nearly 15k power, 20% CRT, 24% ArP & Vorpal stacking about as much damage increase as possible. At last 25% of boss switching to Anvil the GF is doing 200% damage increase and anvil CRTs for 100k+ damage. My cleaves hit for 13k+ with normal damage around 6k-7k.
That's why my DPS is so high also the TR has to move around more than a GF.
TR's get a bad bleed or drop their bleed because of a bad hit or something their DPS drops alot while GF is just auto attacks.
I won't dispute any of this, but the main point stands. The vast majority of GFs can't/don't perform this way.
I won't dispute any of this, but the main point stands. The vast majority of GFs can't/don't perform this way.
I agree with you there.
0
petpet2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
I was very active in Dota since 2002. Upgrades and nerf happen all the time for 10 years, and everyone (read: Asians) around me never cried foul when any OP hero gets nerfed.
I don't get it why so many people on this forum QQ whenever someone is nerfed. I mean if that happens, find a new way to play your class. And if you don't like it, just quit the game.
as for PvE, I'm happily looking forward to switching from Conq to another Paragon Path (unsure yet) with the Grand Regent set after this 22nd. Paying very close attention to regen tanking.
Comments
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
If you play a Guardian Fighter and you want to max out your PvE DPS the nerf to the Stalwart Set would require you to delete your current character (most likely Tiefling) and start a new one (most likely Half-Orc) and then roll the stats that now are superior to CON (STR/DEX). The effect of this of course is that you have to spent around 1.5 million AD if you want to get yourself a Timeless Set, you have to spent 0.8m for the Ioun Stone, you have to get yourself another CN weapon set and get a new Greater Plaguefire enchant for it, as the other is of course bound on your old character. Talking about enchants, you need a whole new set of enchants (hopefully you didnt have rank 9 or 10s)... and of course rings, neck, waist...
The problem of the Nerf of the Stalwart Set as it is planned is the change to the mechanic. Cryptic should NEVER change the benefit you gain from ability score points, when there is no way to change your initial roll and race choice. The only option players have to change these is to delete the character and start the new one and as all equipment items are bound on equip you would have to reobtain everything. Many players see equipment as a form of achievement, thus making players have to reobtain their equipment equals losing these achievements.
Also, this nerf is being done in what is called a "Live" game, not in a beta phase. Not only will your achievements be lost, but you cannot be certain about what will come next. 90% of the GF's I know of will switch to Timeless Hero set. Besides feeling bad about having the wrong race and the wrong initial ability score roll to max DPS with the Timeless set, you also need to fear Cryptic nerfing the Timeless set. If sets get nerfed to dead in a live game how can you be sure that in a month or so there won't be the next nerf news ("As 90% of the Guardian Fighter's were using the Timeless hero set we reworked the four pierce bonus: You now get +10% Running Speed for 4 seconds when your Guard Meter runs out!")
What many people suggested in this thread was changing the Stalwart Bulwark to a T2 Set and decreasing it's bonus while keeping the mechanic. The argument ambisinisterr hold in favor of the decision was the fact that an increase in power equal to 25% of your HP is simply to much. GF's with a Max HP of 28k (should be an average number) get 7000 power from the set bonus, which is too much. I agree with that, but the math you did, that the set bonus would have to be 5% max to be balanced is incorrect. As a Guardian Fighter with the Conqueror last feat stacking Power is very easy. An increase of 7000 power DOES NOT equal 7000 power points on gear, but an increase of 3500 equipment power points (as the Conqueror feat does not increase the power you get from the set bonus).
What do other classes get from their T2 set bonusses? Trickster Rogues get 1023 Power and Recovery from Swashbuckling Captain. The Great Weapon Fighters get 1260 Power and Recovery from Avatar of War. Thats 2046 and 2520 stat points compared to the 3500 stat points the Conqueror Guardian Fighters get. Additionally Swashbuckling and Avatar of War offer an offensive 2 piece bonus that Stalwart was lacking of course. Still it is not too far from balanced and I will explain why.
Many theorycrafters say that Power suffers no Diminishing Returns. But that is not fully correct. Just like you need more and more CRIT to increase your CRIT chance by 1% you also DO NEED MORE AND MORE POWER to increase your damage by 1%. That being said a boost to a single stat like the Stalwart's 4-piece bonus did offer ON A CLASS THAT ALREADY HAS A VERY HIGH AMOUNT OF THAT STAT (like Conqueror GF's do!) will suffer very hard from Dimishing Returns. Also there will be many occasions where the set bonus will not be even up with 5 stacks, most notably pvp.
In my opinion the suggestion of making the set a T2 (switching it with Grand Regent) and reducing it's set bonus is fine. For example the set bonus could be "Adds 1.5% of your Maximum HP in power. Stacks 6 times. This bonus is affected by Reckless Attacker." The set bonus would then add 9% of Max HP when it reaches maximum stacks. If you have 28k Life this would equal 2520 Power, which is fair compared to the 2460 points Avatar of War gives concerning you suffer way more Diminishing Returns, as its a bonus to a single stat rather than two stats and that you have no offensive 2 piece bonus. Also the Defense and Deflection stats on Stalwart should be reduced by ~10-20% to reduce its defensive effectiveness. I very much agree with the point that a set should not be the best defensive and offensive set at the same time, but decreasing the bonus to 9%, while also increasing the stack number making it a bit harder to maintain the bonus and while lowering the defensive attributes of the set a little bit, making the maintaining of the bonus (getting hit by mobs or players) harder (as you lose more HP) seems fine to me. Also making the bonus stack with the Conqueror feat would make the Set still a good choice for Conqueror GF's, while not being OP on Defensive GF's. The real problem of the Stalwart Set: Offering the BEST on the offensive AND defensive side would be gone. You can no longer make a defensive feated GF and get the full offensive out of the set. Also the set would not offer a better bonus than the other melee classes T2 sets, making it not only balanced within the class itself but also balanced compared to other classes.
Edit: What I want to add is that there is no valid reason why a T1 Set should not be changed to a T2. The argument that T2 is harder to obtain is simply invalid. From open beta on the T2 instances had all kinds of glitches that were farmed by so many people getting the T2 equipment into the Auction House at very cheap prices. Before the Mad Dragon's big spawn was changed recently the Tier 1 Helm was the hardest item to obtain, thus making collecting the full T1 set harder than completing the full T2.
4.4k power seems like an unrealistically low estimate of Stalwart's benefit, unless you're averaging it out over time in an environment that doesn't favor the set (PvP, possibly).
4.4k power would correspond to an HP pool of 4.4 / 0.25 = 17,600 HP. The minimum possible HP pool for a level 60 character is 19,000 HP. That's without CON bonuses, without equipment bonuses, and without feat bonuses.
Realistically, a GF should achieve something like 25k HP without even trying. 30k is probably closer to the mark, for most epic-equipped GFs. At 25-30k health, you're looking at a bonus from Stalwart of 6,250-7,500 Power. In other words, it should roughly double your character's initial Power stat, based on the numbers you've posted.
That's not a trivial bonus. Power certainly isn't the most efficient offensive stat out there; it's actually rather weak relative to Crit/ArPen, on a point-for-point basis. But just because 1 point of power isn't equivalent to 1 point of Crit/ArPen, it doesn't follow that any arbitrary amount of Crit/Arpen can compete with several times as much Power.
It's a net 4.4k. As in with stalwart on and all 5 stacks I have 10.5k, and with my non-set epics and 2 pc timeless I have 6.1k power, but I also have a bunch more Crit/ArP/Recovery. I am speaking about PvP, but even in PvE power alone with no Crit/ArP is vastly inferior to power + crit and ArP.
For PvE I do still wear my stalwart set for the added tankiness, but the difference in damage between having 0 stacks and 5 stacks honestly isn't that much, maybe like 1k damage on an encounter at most, so 2k ish if it crits. The bonus damage from the stalwart set would only make up 5% or less of my total damage dealt as the stacks are not consistently at 5 and the damage bonus is minor % wise. I just think if ~12k AD worth of "trash" gear can outperform the set in PvP then why nerf it? the damage bonus is already minor in PvE as our base power is doubled by conqueror capstone. As I said I go from 10.5k with all 5 stacks to 6.1k with no stacks, and that could be improved if I got some better gear.
Also I have a friend that is tank spec GF, he equipped stalwarts and was very
I guess my reasoning is stalwarts is already far from BiS, HOWEVER, lots of people seem angry that they are making it completely worthless so why change it so drastically vs. just a small nerf? or even no nerf heh...
This just seems similar to the cleric nerf, nerfing something that is already too weak, I don't understand it. The only reason this is worn in PvE (myself included) is because so many people already bought it after reading how great it was on the forums, and they figure why buy all new gear for PvE when we can handle it with what we already own.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
The reason the set is being nerf so hardcore is because it's the most broken 4set bonus in the game for GFs. My current STAL set:
DPS Build: 14.8k Power, 20% CRT, 24% ArP + G.Vorpal - No other GF came even close the amount of damage I was putting out with this build. Also I was able to maintain Menace up over 90% of the fights that's an additional 20% damage gain + CC immunity. While using Knights Valor to keep STAL stacks up 100% of fight and reduce all teams damage.
For PvP - I would use a Regen/Deflect build which is the "BEST" PvP build for GF's in competitive PvP. The build mimic's Sentinel GWFs and makes you nearly unbeatable 1v1. This is also why GCTRL now has a DC version that's doing the same thing.
The reason your friends damage was low with their STAL was they did not have an augment pet giving them their 20% CRT & ArP caps.
After this patch nothing will change expect players will just need to switch sets and change gear/enchants to reach the same #'s.
Regen/Deflect will still be OP in PvP.
Regen/Deflect will still be OP in PvE Tanking.
DPS GF's will still be OP in PvE.
Burst GF's will still be OP in PvP pugs.
All Cryptic is doing is lining their pockets with the cash players will have to spend to swap gear. I'll post a comprehensive guide with the info needed to design your own GF builds and some basic builds for new players after module 1 is released.
Some of these guys even have perfect vorpal/soulforged and greater tene's.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Cribstaxxx - I don't want this to turn into a flame war but I am considered the #1 Guardian Fighter in NW by some of the top PvP players across all servers. I've proven this in PvP on the PTR and have a good grasp on how the GF class works and enjoy GF theory. Burst GF's is great for Pug PvP but lacks survival in competitive PvP and unable to hold a point solo or vs. several opponents at once.
My GF's damage in PvE is near equal to TRs / CW / GWF - The reason is the massive amount of damage gained and stacking stats on your augment pet. Your statements show your lack of knowledge of the class and what does your damage. Cleave is over 50% of the damage the class does and why your goal should be to make Cleave do as much damage as possible. The encounters used should be to increase the damage of cleave or gain as much AP as possible to get Menace up for 20% damage boost. This is why you and your friends damage is lower than it should be.
PvP - STAL my damage is about 5-6K for Bull Charge, Lunge & Frontline surge / 10k+ with Daily. That means you can 1 rotation kill almost low HP class. Even if you don't kill them in 1 rotation you'll kill them 2nd rotation or kill a target that's below 50% HP.
STAL is the best PvP set hands down until patch and then Grand R or My Blue set with 11.6% Regen will be the best PvP Build until Cryptic nerfs something else.
Ah, so you're saying that the alternate equipment loadout gives you 2k+ more in power from the items themselves (or 1k+ if you have the Reckless Attacker feat, which I assume you do)? That makes sense.
I'm not sure about your conclusion, though. Leaving aside the practical/qualitative issue (how easy or hard it is to maintain Stalwart stacks in PvP), 6-8k power is a massive, massive damage bonus, and there's no reason that a different armor set should provide so much more Crit/Arp that Stalwart would lose numerically in the exchange. With a more consistent loadout of supplementary equipment (that is, the loadout of items you use on top of Stalwart versus the loadout of items you use on top of your alternative armor) -- all else being equal , in other words -- you should have higher DPS in the Stalwart gear, assuming you can consistently maintain full stacks of the set-bonus buff.
The only thing I can think is that you're over-loading on Defensive enchantment slots to stack HP with Stalwart, which is fine if you're looking for a combined survivability/damage boost, but it's not quite fair to compare Stalwart stacked with defensive supplements versus an alternate armor stacked with offensive supplements.
None of the above is to say that you're wrong not to wear Stalwart in PvP. As noted in previous posts, there may very well be very good qualitative reasons not to wear the set in PvP. I'm not arguing that Stalwart is unconditionally best-in-slot for all players and all situations -- but I think you've stacked the quantitative comparison too far in the other direction.
Did your stacks deplete after one single attack or when the time ran out, thus allowing for multiple hits with this outrageous 200 damage bonus?
If you think about it the ONLY set that has an actually decent set bonus is the T2 PvP set with 10% Movement speed and Knights Cap set.
You say well... "looks".
only GF know that... people continue to claim that I should take aggro fo 20 adds in the same time and also survive. We can't tank (are useless in dungeons), can't do damage (to finish the same foundry I need 30 min with my GF lev 60 11.8k gs, and 10 min with my rogue lev 11 all gray weared!!)... we are totally useless. Stalwart was the only chance to deal some damge (i mean 12k with crit)... now we are totally useless and also totaly poor (months of gameplay wasted).
They want to see GF died. It's the weakest class, full of bugs, drowned in tears of crybabies who can not oneshot in pvp, without any decent set maybe except Timeless. It is time to quit. If you really really like this game, roll a rogue, otherwise quit the game.
lol GF is far from dead and the STAL nerf only breaks 1 set which is easily replaced by other builds. The extreme builds I've posted with GF having nearly 15k Power with both CRT/ARP caps was only possible with STAL but... switching race going STR/DEX and using specific items it's still possible to reach the same damage without the survival STAL set gave.
DPS & Tank GF's still exist just not the Extreme DPS GF with good tanking stats. But you can still have great tanking and decent damage or very high damage GF and low tanking.
First of all: Foundries gonna be harder every level you over 10. Until you reach 60, you are far away from a point of be powerful before.
Second: What 'bugs' should exist on GF? I only see 2 bugs on PTS and Live. And these maybe can be explain by lagg ~150ms ping... or special conditions.
But in one point you are allright: We CAN'T tank 10+ mobs... Not with 800+ damage every hit of them(lol 55%+ DR!, but they hit far away from 1,6k!).
switching race? using specific items? Why I should restart from zero after three months?
PvP - Staying with my Regen/Deflect build on my Halfling.
PvE - Switching back to my Human and going Knights Cap set + 8-9k Power, 20% CRT, 24% ArP with G-Vorpal. Damage GF build.
What is your in-game name? I'll look up your gear on gateway and see if you need to change things after patch.
- griffon wrath cooldown is not affected by recovery
- luging strike is easly blocked in pvp by any mage. Also if you luging strike against a mage they simply can push back you and you don't hit them.
- shield talent doesn't work
- some other feats are totally useless like pin down: 3 points to increase prone duration by 0.3!? Most of people does not have enough sensitivity to feel a difference so small --> This feat does not have any effect on gameplay
- Stun does not work in pvp: i see rogue run away stunned, mage teleporting while stunned and so on...
- block bug still exit even if less than in the past
and i stop here because this is not the bug section...
The problem is that GF
- don't tank
- don't deal damage
- don't control
- don't heal
- don't is unstoppable
it is a bad mix of everithing and so useless in the most of situations
- dungeons: the tank is usefull only in a t1 dungeon when the other members of party are just 60 still blue weared, so you help them to survive. In any other situation there always in an other class better than GF. Still think that TR tank bosses!!
- pvp: it's defense is totally useless when a CW block you until death or when a rogue use smoke bomb and deal 30k damage with one hit, and when gwf are unstoppable from the start to the end of match.
- quests: to finish the same quests require a GF the double of time than a rogue ad same with foundry. When I started my GF I took three hours to reach level 11 and pray for the first time. With my rogue I needed 1 hours and 15 minutes from creation to pray. When a GF reach level 60 the rogue that started with him is already in t2 dungeons and gained a lot o money selling items.
how can you switch from halfling to human? how many GF do you have? Or you have 2 GF, or you need to restart from zero.
Don't waste time, i quit GF and the game. But thank you for offering your help. I don't want to restart from zero. If you want to understand my point of view, read this
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?447421-Nerf-to-Stalwart-Bulwark&p=5656971&viewfull=1#post5656971
Sorry to say but you sound like a bad GF or play with bad GFs.
GF is best tank in game.
GF deals nearly equal damage to TR/CW/GWF
GF has (3) Prone's
GF is #2 in healing
GWF is only class with unstoppable. GF is a better tank than GWF if that's what you mean by unstoppable.
If a GF is dieing to a CW 1v1 PvP then you are bad only class that can beat a good GF 1v1 is a TR or another GF.
I have 5 GF's (Orc, Tie, Dwarf, Human, Halfling) I also have an Elf that's not 60 yet. But I have 12 ALTs: 60 TR, 60 GWF, Several 60 GFs and others low levels for farming leadership.
When I switched from my human to halfling with my regen/deflect build it cost me 8Million AD and so I feel your pain. I'm currently broke and to switch some of my enchants to my human for PvE readiness it will cost me 5 Million + Ad. I have 2 full sets of gear for both my PET & Self which all Rank 8 enchants all built around STAL. I also have over 100 days in-game as I've been playing since BETA and just spent 3Million AD in enchants/gear to build my DPS STAL with the 14.8k Power to have the build nerfed a few weeks later. Really sucks and all of that gear/enchants will now need to be replaced or unsocketed to move to my Human.
I also spent 980k on a CAT for my haflling so I could PvE with her too but now that's worthless also as she will only be used for PvP.
So I understand your pain and frustration with a nerf like this and something the DEVs appear to not care about.
1 attack only and its gone
and if you have armor enchants it will be gone too if it activates
so if you have briartwine(reflect) you cant even stack up to 5 it will always activate
Maybe I couldn't explain myself...
GF is best tank in game. Ok, but i's usless couse TR tank bosses, GF died agains adds. Also stoll now most of party don't want a GF inside. 2 CW or 2 TR are better.
GF deals nearly equal damage to TR/CW/GWF. It's not true!! No one deals same damage as a TR.
GF has (3) Prone's. Yes but nothing against CW and TR smoke bomb. We also have stuns, but nearly usless in pvp even if i read a lot of discussion in which people cry agains our stuns... but i see people continue do perform their actions while stunned. Or they are cheaters, or i'm blind.
GF is #2 in healing
GWF is only class with unstoppable. GF is a better tank than GWF if that's what you mean by unstoppable. I mean that gwf use usntoppable from start to end of a pvp match
I don't know how much do you play, but i can't pass my life near neverwinter. Maximum amount of AD i reached was 1.6 million, one time, i don't have 8 million to switch. I played my GF around a mechanic that now doesn't exit anymore. I started a trip knowing i would be slower than you and many others, but thinking i was going somewhere. Devs simply take me and put againg at the start of my trip surely thinking that i will spend money to switch and restart, but i don't want to waste money and other time.
As I've said you lack experience with the class and why you believe these things. I've had guildmate's that are in BiS Gear/enchants surprised by the amount of damage my GF put out. Even on Draco my damage is near equal to that of a TR. The reason is because I know the class and how to do the most damage possible.
With the changes to TR, you'll see the gap get even closer between TR & GF or GF may out damage a TR.
However, the main point is that most GF's haven't spent a million, much less 60 million, and that's what hinageshi79 is referencing.
The players in my guild are BiS Gear with Rank 8-10 Enchants and we are all end game gear. The reason the GF damage is so high is due to Knights Challenge 100% damage increase with a GF having nearly 15k power, 20% CRT, 24% ArP & Vorpal stacking about as much damage increase as possible. At last 25% of boss switching to Anvil the GF is doing 200% damage increase and anvil CRTs for 100k+ damage. My cleaves hit for 13k+ with normal damage around 6k-7k.
That's why my DPS is so high also the TR has to move around more than a GF.
TR's get a bad bleed or drop their bleed because of a bad hit or something their DPS drops alot while GF is just auto attacks.
http://www.twitch.tv/bizzyplusplus/b/447084635
He uses stalwart. Of course.
I won't dispute any of this, but the main point stands. The vast majority of GFs can't/don't perform this way.
I agree with you there.
I don't get it why so many people on this forum QQ whenever someone is nerfed. I mean if that happens, find a new way to play your class. And if you don't like it, just quit the game.
as for PvE, I'm happily looking forward to switching from Conq to another Paragon Path (unsure yet) with the Grand Regent set after this 22nd. Paying very close attention to regen tanking.