Right. The question is how much DPS you think crit adds versus the power from Stalwart. Based on your own numbers posted earlier, you estimated that Stalwart added approximately a 35% aggregate damage boost to your powers.
Do you even know how much crit rating you'd need to equal a 35% boost in overall damage? Hint: each point of critical chance doesn't even correspond to a percentage point of aggregate DPS: a guy wearing Stalwart will realistically have some amount of critical rating himself, so in order to perform a good-faith comparison, you have to take the difference in crit rate between the Timeless wearer and a Stalwart wearer.
And in order to even have a hope of beating out Stalwart's DPS benefit through crit, you'd have to maximize critical severity, which means you're stuck with Vorpal enchantments. So again, in order to make a good-faith comparison, we must assume that the Stalwart wearer is using the best-case weapon enchantment to correspond with the Timeless wearer's Vorpal.
All of the above assumes, of course, that you are serious about discussing DPS. On the other hand, if you're just making a "crit means higher individual numbers" argument, then that's fine, but please do recognize that what you're discussing is not, in fact, DPS, but rather a randomized, situational, and frankly ambiguous trade off between peak spike damage and consistent damage output.
Think about how often i crit with timeless and how often you crit with stalwark
Think about how often i use enounters and how ofte you use them with stalwark
Now think about my base 6000 power from timeless and your need for stacks with stalwark
1st -timeless crits more often
2nd - timeless recharge encounters 25 - 30% more faster / thats about 2 - 2.5 seconds cut /
3rd i dont need stacks to hit for 3.5-5k as you do with stalwark
so for example you have max stats on your stalwark and you do your enounter rotation/ lunge,bull,frontline / which lets say will be like:
lunge - 5k - 8s. cooldown no crit chance
bull - 6.5k - 11s. cooldown no crit chance
frontline 6k - 16.5s cooldown no crit chance
now by the time you finish with the rotation lunge in on 1-2 seconds /depends how you time them/ SO YOU START YOUR ROTATION AGAIN ! so that puts you on a overall more damage per second ratio
Thats only about the recovery issue, i will save you the critical damage and the 113% soverity that i have becouse i dont want to underestimate you explaining you simple facts.
Lol since when did not wearing timeless mean you have no crit chanceat all? You still have crit from feats, other items and your companion. It has been discussed in other threads that crit has one of the worst dimishing returns for offensive stats so realistically you'll get less than 10% crit chance so that's 1 in every 10 hits you'll crit more.
The numbers you pulled for recovery are inaccurate too. My recovery is 1837 so cooldown on lunging strike is 6.2 seconds. Dismissing my stone which gives me 965 recovery the cooldown on lunging strike is 6.6 seconds. I don't know where you're pulling these 2 seconds from since the difference is 0.4 seconds for me.
...............anyways guys now since you will lose your builds, most of you will move to timeless and you will see how right we are about it.
Most people will move on to grand regent you will not die as fast as a son of a ***** with that armor like you will in timeless. that and you can still get high power with it.
now we put companions into this >.<
I play pvp and speak about the dmg in pvp i dont do dungeons and if i do i have different set for it.
Timeless is better for pvp then stal thats all. I am sick of arguing with the wall here.you only put out the same thing over and over again without considering the value of the other set ...
The companion is irrelevant it was just an easy example to show that recovery does not improve your cooldowns by the amounts you made up. To spell it out for you the 965 recovery only gave 0.4 seconds cooldown on lunging strike.
i can crit with stalwart if i have crit on its part where is it?
if you want to make comparison more complicated then lets add accessories
with stalwart if you focus on crit you will lose recovery or arpen
if you use timeless you can add more crit and arpen
like the poster above said he has high crit chance you can crit 5x in a row
with stalwart youre lucky if you can crit 1 or 2 x
and also i did not said 30% damage i just gave an example just look how low it adds on bull rush it has higher damage but max stack gives lower damage than lunging strike power is really OP right?
again
arpen > crit > power
power is over rated i have conqueror GF with 6k power but its damage is low compared to low power high arpen build
wonder how tr deals OP damage? its bec of arpen and crit not power
The companion is irrelevant it was just an easy example to show that recovery does not improve your cooldowns by the amounts you made up. To spell it out for you the 965 recovery only gave 0.4 seconds cooldown on lunging strike.
I made up the numbers becouse i cant do my research from work and post the exact ones,,,,,,,,,
but the difference isnt really that much to mention even.
The point of that was to show you the timeless rotation and its critical bonus. My recovery is 2100 and if you say it DOES NOT make a difference i would say you are one of the many braindead imbeciles in this game.
i can crit with stalwart if i have crit on its part where is it?
if you want to make comparison more complicated then lets add accessories
with stalwart if you focus on crit you will lose recovery or arpen
if you use timeless you can add more crit and arpen
A
like the poster above said he has high crit chance you can crit 5x in a row
with stalwart youre lucky if you can crit 1 or 2 x
and also i did not said 30% damage i just gave an example just look how low it adds on bull rush it has higher damage but max stack gives lower damage than lunging strike power is really OP right?
again
arpen > crit > power
power is over rated i have conqueror GF with 6k power but its damage is low compared to low power high arpen build
wonder how tr deals OP damage? its bec of arpen and crit not power
You also get crit chance with dex a high con and dex focused GF can easily make stalwarts the end all be all set. Lets see 24 dex 24 con 16 Strength Half Orc can achieve this that's 14% crit chance from dex alone and 14% armor ignored you only need to stack 1k armor pen the rest can go to crit cause you get 616 from accessory's 2 rank 10 darks can get you 1212 Armor pen to finish that state out then you can get 916 crit also from just 1 rank 10 azure enchants if your using necromancer rings of undeath load it up with even more HP this build uses 3 offensive slots and 6 defensive slots. This is the build my friend has for her GF as for recovery it dosent matter she can turtle to by time for CD's and in Pve her pet handles that stat
No one in the game is going to have no crit doesn't matter which armour they use. It would be logical to use real in game scenarios where players do equip armour pen, critical and recovery on their other items and enchantments. I'm not arguing that arpen isn't better to a point but majority of people are aiming for the soft cap of 22-24% using any GF set.
Yes I must be one of those braindead imbeciles that argues with made up numbers I pulled out of my *** instead of using actual game data. Timeless gives you 1271 recovery and Stalwart gives you 492 recovery which is a difference of 779 recovery. Are you trying to say that the 779 recovery is going to make a massive difference when I already tested that with 965 recovery on top of my base of 872 recovery only gives 0.4 seconds on lunging strike.
maxillion2 with dex it only gives armour ignore it does not give you extra crit.
No one in the game is going to have no crit doesn't matter which armour they use. It would be logical to use real in game scenarios where players do equip armour pen, critical and recovery on their other items and enchantments. I'm not arguing that arpen isn't better to a point but majority of people are aiming for the soft cap of 22-24% using any GF set.
Yes I must be one of those braindead imbeciles that argues with made up numbers I pulled out of my *** instead of using actual game data. Timeless gives you 1271 recovery and Stalwart gives you 492 recovery which is a difference of 779 recovery. Are you trying to say that the 779 recovery is going to make a massive difference when I already tested that with 965 recovery on top of my base of 872 recovery only gives 0.4 seconds on lunging strike.
maxillion2 with dex it only gives armour ignore it does not give you extra crit.
I know i got deflection and crit mixed up sigh But the resistance ignored part is true oh if only dex did give crit chance to GF lolz i think hes is actualy sticking points into wisdom to get his LS at 6 second CD i think he need at least 12 wisdom maby 14 that or he is a half elf
No one in the game is going to have no crit doesn't matter which armour they use. It would be logical to use real in game scenarios where players do equip armour pen, critical and recovery on their other items and enchantments. I'm not arguing that arpen isn't better to a point but majority of people are aiming for the soft cap of 22-24% using any GF set.
Yes I must be one of those braindead imbeciles that argues with made up numbers I pulled out of my *** instead of using actual game data. Timeless gives you 1271 recovery and Stalwart gives you 492 recovery which is a difference of 779 recovery. Are you trying to say that the 779 recovery is going to make a massive difference when I already tested that with 965 recovery on top of my base of 872 recovery only gives 0.4 seconds on lunging strike.
maxillion2 with dex it only gives armour ignore it does not give you extra crit.
You also get crit chance with dex a high con and dex focused GF can easily make stalwarts the end all be all set. Lets see 24 dex 24 con 16 Strength Half Orc can achieve this that's 14% crit chance from dex alone and 14% armor ignored you only need to stack 1k armor pen the rest can go to crit cause you get 616 from accessory's 2 rank 10 darks can get you 1212 Armor pen to finish that state out then you can get 916 crit also from just 1 rank 10 azure enchants if your using necromancer rings of undeath load it up with even more HP this build uses 3 offensive slots and 6 defensive slots. This is the build my friend has for her GF as for recovery it dosent matter she can turtle to by time for CD's and in Pve her pet handles that stat
adding P2W items again try adding it to timeless too?
but wheres the crit from stats
my dex shows = resistance ignored / deflect / aoe damage resist
con = ap gain and HP
orc gives crit severity
guard is useless for experienced player so no stun/knock/skill to throw = like a dummy training
faster skill CD = better at PVP
PVE cd doesnt matter unless youre a DC and CW
Now think about my base 6000 power from timeless and your need for stacks with stalwark
That is a valid point, if you're primarily interested in PvP. Then again, you won't necessarily always have full stacks of the Timeless buff either. Still, I can see a practical argument for Timeless on a PvP character.
The numerical arguments, on the other hand, unequivocally favor Stalwart. For example:
1st -timeless crits more often
2nd - timeless recharge encounters 25 - 30% more faster / thats about 2 - 2.5 seconds cut /
3rd i dont need stacks to hit for 3.5-5k as you do with stalwark
Right -- about 10.3% more often, absent any diminished returns.
~800 Recovery extra gives you 6.52% Recharge, not 25-30%. And Recharge is not a straight reduction to cooldowns. (Read the stat formula here, and read an explanation of the Recharge mechanic here.)
No, but you need stacks to maintain your crit chance advantage. And although Timeless' active stack-management requirement might be better in PvP, Stalwart's entirely passive system is arguably (or was arguably) better in PvE.
The fact that Stalwart's offensive boost came along with superior survivability is an advantage, not a disadvantage, as trollgre would like to frame it.
For the record, I don't have a problem with experienced players making informed decisions based on logistics. In your case, it's perfectly reasonable to decide that you prefer Timeless based on your playstyle preferences. But in order to have a complete understanding of the game, you must combine the empirical with the anecdotal, because the human eye can be quite inaccurate (and because, on the other hand, qualitative factors can sometimes outweigh the quantitative).
So in other words, feel free to laugh at all the n00bs in PvP who use Stalwart if that's your opinion of them, but don't tell me that ~10% crit and ~6.5% recharge are mathematically superior to a 35%boost in aggregate damage. The numbers just don't say that.
While it is true that timeless full set, or even timeless 2 piece and non-set epics with ArP/Crit are better than stalwarts, many people were mislead (myself included originally) to believe stalwarts was the BiS set for GF. I personally spent 400-500k on the set, which I use for PvE now, and slotted Rank 6's only, thank goodness, before realizing it wasn't the best for damage. At least give people free unslotting of enchants if you are going to nerf a set so drastically IMO.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
As said before on nearly every page, anyone that didn't see this coming is braindead. The way they completely reworked the set bonus instead of reducing the effectiveness of the original was a curveball, but every single GF out there should have known that it was eventually going to be nerfed to be less effective than the T2 Timeless set.
Quit whining. You should have prepared for this nerf, and you have to live with the investment that you made months ago when a relatively dirt cheap T1 set was beyond BIS for GF's. You benefited from that for months, and if you didn't consider at all that it would eventually come to an end, then the joke's on you.
As said before on nearly every page, anyone that didn't see this coming is braindead. The way they completely reworked the set bonus instead of reducing the effectiveness of the original was a curveball, but every single GF out there should have known that it was eventually going to be nerfed to be less effective than the T2 Timeless set.
Quit whining. You should have prepared for this nerf, and you have to live with the investment that you made months ago when a relatively dirt cheap T1 set was beyond BIS for GF's. You benefited from that for months, and if you didn't consider at all that it would eventually come to an end, then the joke's on you.
lol wow chill, I don't care that I spend AD on stalwart, I still use it for PvE. But there are multiple guides that say stalwart is BiS, and if you slotted rank 8's in there it kinda sucks. Doesn't matter whether I think a set is OP or not. By your line of thinking all the BiS sets are fair game to nerf as they are the strongest sets, so we shouldn't socket them?? thats stupid. It was put in the game, it was never brought up until now, how am I supposed to predict it would be nerfed?
Especially when after buying it and doing some pvp I could tell very quickly that having your damage up front and not having to wait for it to build was much better, I realized that it is actually a much weaker set, so I def didn't think it would get nerfed lol.
It just makes more sense to me from a business standpoint to say "We have found this armor to be too strong, we are going to nerf it to the point that it is worthless, and between now and then we will let you unsocket gems free of charge" Even if I lost 400k on the set, and even though they are going to way over nerf it, that explanation along with consideration of players just makes customers happy, and PWE needs that right now.
"We're making this armor worthless, deal with it" also works, but with a bit less effectiveness...
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
By your line of thinking all the BiS sets are fair game to nerf as they are the strongest sets, so we shouldn't socket them?? thats stupid. It was put in the game, it was never brought up until now, how am I supposed to predict it would be nerfed?
BiS slot status doesn't mean it needs a nerf, but looking at that set it was easy to predict that a T1 set bonus that provides 7000 power vs. A T2 set bonus that provides 1250 crit makes that T1 set way over the item budget, and the T1 set was less than half the price since it is easier to obtain. That's why it was obvious that this set would draw ire from players and the devs would likely respond with a nerf to the set bonus, and why I chose not to invest millions worth of enchants into the set.
There's nothing wrong with anyone who decided to invest their money into socketing a Stalwart Set over the last few months, but they now have to live with their decision. Those individuals making posts like "I had no idea..." are out of their minds, and the only person they should be angry with is themselves that they didn't make a wiser decision with their astral diamonds.
I guess it comes down to whether you are a player who thinks it's okay for devs to make changes to items that you had to spend a lot of time and in-game money on to acquire for the sake of the game's balance, or a player who thinks they should never ever have to suffer a nerf no matter what. Being that this is a free to play MMO and the only consideration required by the player to play is their time, and not a subscription fee, I think it's perfectly fair to nerf set bonuses to restore parity to the gear progression.
Pay 500k AD for BiS Stalwart's is a week and a half's worth of time investment, and that old set bonus made every single other set in the game look comparatively trashy. It gave you the best offense and best defense for a cheap price, and wasn't balanced. I'm sorry for those that invested in that set in the short term, but it wasn't a good long term picture to begin with.
again people just keep repeating themseleves like a broken record "you should have seen the nerf blah blah" this is all the **** anti SB set keeps saying. sure, give me the **** nerf but dont change the whole mechancs that it makes it a whole diff set altogether.
BiS slot status doesn't mean it needs a nerf, but looking at that set it was easy to predict that a T1 set bonus that provides 7000 power vs. A T2 set bonus that provides 1250 crit makes that T1 set way over the item budget, and the T1 set was less than half the price since it is easier to obtain. That's why it was obvious that this set would draw ire from players and the devs would likely respond with a nerf to the set bonus, and why I chose not to invest millions worth of enchants into the set.
There's nothing wrong with anyone who decided to invest their money into socketing a Stalwart Set over the last few months, but they now have to live with their decision. Those individuals making posts like "I had no idea..." are out of their minds, and the only person they should be angry with is themselves that they didn't make a wiser decision with their astral diamonds.
Except that it's not better. Crit/ArP are so much more valuable for damage on a GF than power is. I do more damage with random non-set epics and even blue gloves than I do with full stalwarts. The fact is that stalwarts offers only tankiness and power, no Crit/ArP which is the only way you are going to do good damage in PvP.
I switched out my stalwarts and did vastly superior damage, I still have 6-7k power instead of 10k, but I have that power 100% of the time, not only after having been attacked 5 times. Not to mention I had HP in every defense slot to boost stalwart bonus, now I swapped out most of my defense slots for offense ones and have even more ArP/Crit.
Stalwart is inferior to any combination of ArP/Crit gear, and therefore is not OP. Again I don't care that it is now pve only, as thats all I use it for, but don't pretend like it was godly overpowered and I should have seen this coming months ago.
Again what I am saying is that from a customer service standpoint it makes more sense to make people happy than to tell them suck it up. I won't even unsocket if they give it for free, cause I'm going to use it for PvE regardless. I pve so infrequently that it isn't worth my time to get 2 pc grand regent or any T2 other than timeless for dps/pvp.
And 500k AD is average for T2 sets nowadays btw. Also grand regent still has superior tank stats, albeit lower power bonus than stalwarts, so if you're going for tank, that's your BiS. If you're going for DPS, Timeless 4 pc, or timeless 2 pc + 2 non set epics is your BiS. Stalwarts has no place in "End-game" gear, it's just what people use because it's cheap and still decent.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
That is a valid point, if you're primarily interested in PvP. Then again, you won't necessarily always have full stacks of the Timeless buff either. Still, I can see a practical argument for Timeless on a PvP character.
The numerical arguments, on the other hand, unequivocally favor Stalwart. For example:
Right -- about 10.3% more often, absent any diminished returns.
~800 Recovery extra gives you 6.52% Recharge, not 25-30%. And Recharge is not a straight reduction to cooldowns. (Read the stat formula here, and read an explanation of the Recharge mechanic here.)
No, but you need stacks to maintain your crit chance advantage. And although Timeless' active stack-management requirement might be better in PvP, Stalwart's entirely passive system is arguably (or was arguably) better in PvE.
The fact that Stalwart's offensive boost came along with superior survivability is an advantage, not a disadvantage, as trollgre would like to frame it.
For the record, I don't have a problem with experienced players making informed decisions based on logistics. In your case, it's perfectly reasonable to decide that you prefer Timeless based on your playstyle preferences. But in order to have a complete understanding of the game, you must combine the empirical with the anecdotal, because the human eye can be quite inaccurate (and because, on the other hand, qualitative factors can sometimes outweigh the quantitative).
So in other words, feel free to laugh at all the n00bs in PvP who use Stalwart if that's your opinion of them, but don't tell me that ~10% crit and ~6.5% recharge are mathematically superior to a 35%boost in aggregate damage. The numbers just don't say that.
I agree with you.Its my mistake, i post from work like i said i dont have time for research.
Going to edit it when i am able to check for myself.
However My point is that Timeless is way superier then Stalwart in PvP
When you pvp you need to deliver fast damage... Low cooldown , great opening , easy to maintain stacks , great critical ..
what else"?
Speaking about numbers is fine to a point.But futher of that same points sounds like a rocket science to me. Its a game and many people seem to forget that.I like pvp so i play it.Had the chance to try all the sets from T1 and T2 / without High General / and Timeless is the one that does the best in pvp. As final conclusion .. you still need some sort of a skill level to make those numbers work for you dont you think ?!
I agree with you.Its my mistake, i post from work like i said i dont have time for research.
Going to edit it when i am able to check for myself.
Understood. To be clear, I didn't mean to criticize you for fudging the numbers; I just think it's important to present the correct numbers for anyone else who might be reading.
However My point is that Timeless is way superier then Stalwart in PvP
And as I said, you may be right about that. But if you are right about that, you're right because of qualitative/practical factors, not because of any numerically verifiable fact of which I'm aware. In other words, I can't tell you you're wrong for preferring Timeless in a PvP context; hell, I might even agree with you about Timeless in a PvP context, but whether Timeless has a practical advantage in PvP is only tenuously relevant to the issue at hand.
The issue at hand? Based on the developers' design of the itemization/stat budget system in Neverwinter, it was unbalanced per se to have a T1 set bonus that provides anywhere from 6,000-9,000 Power, which scales with a defensive attribute (health) and which requires basically zero active maintenance, to boot. Hell, based on the stat-budget system in Neverwinter (warts and all), it would be crazy to expect that kind of set bonus on a T3 armor.
Now, do I think the Stalwart nerf in the upcoming patch is fair or reasonable? No. Do I think that the stat-budget system as presently designed over-values Power in general? Absolutely. Do I think that Stalwart was necessarily the best tool for every situation and every player? No.
Speaking about numbers is fine to a point.But futher of that same points sounds like a rocket science to me. Its a game and many people seem to forget that.I like pvp so i play it.
One of the bedrock principles for building a solid MMO community is that you have people who are interested in the numbers, and people who are (for lack of a better term) virtuoso players, and both groups contribute to the collective knowledge of the playing community. Most people do regard Neverwinter as just a game; they're not as interested as I am in empirical testing, and they're not as interested as you are in excelling at PvP. Heck, most of them can't even be bothered to register on the forums.
But rest assured, they do use, and benefit from, the conclusions we draw here, both empirically and anecdotally. We all do.
However My point is that Timeless is way superier then Stalwart in PvP
When you pvp you need to deliver fast damage... Low cooldown , great opening , easy to maintain stacks , great critical ..
what else"?
Timeless is the one that does the best in pvp
Fox - You've never faced my build in PvP and that's why you believe timeless is superior. My High HP Regen Tank is superior to timeless in so many ways as it mimic's the Regen Tank GWF. To win the current domination PvP you must hold and cap points. A timeless GF would die in a 1v1 and get destroyed vs. 2 players.
Your experience in PUG games is nothing compared to competitive PvP and once you face a good player using the Regen Tank build you'll quickly realize why timeless lacks the survival in PvP. My guildmates that invested a lot of $$ and time into their Timeless builds all were surprised by my Regen Tank when I destroyed them. Many players have been switching to the Regen build and the survival is godly and even with the nerf to Stal won't change things.
Actually I now have a new set of gear for PvP that pushes me to over 2k Heals a tick and only lost a bit of damage. Going from 2.5k Power to 11.5K Power only doubles the damage of encounters... So from 3k to 6k --- Which isn't that big of a deal because while in STAL you normally don't have stacks at the start of a fight. So we hit for 3k anyways and the power was just a bonus but not what the Regen build was based on.
Because the set is now worthless, I've found better Tank Gear with more Regen & more Deflect. Which has increased the survival of the build and made it even stronger.
Fox - You've never faced my build in PvP and that's why you believe timeless is superior. My High HP Regen Tank is superior to timeless in so many ways as it mimic's the Regen Tank GWF. To win the current domination PvP you must hold and cap points. A timeless GF would die in a 1v1 and get destroyed vs. 2 players.
Your experience in PUG games is nothing compared to competitive PvP and once you face a good player using the Regen Tank build you'll quickly realize why timeless lacks the survival in PvP. My guildmates that invested a lot of $$ and time into their Timeless builds all were surprised by my Regen Tank when I destroyed them. Many players have been switching to the Regen build and the survival is godly and even with the nerf to Stal won't change things.
Actually I now have a new set of gear for PvP that pushes me to over 2k Heals a tick and only lost a bit of damage. Going from 2.5k Power to 11.5K Power only doubles the damage of encounters... So from 3k to 6k --- Which isn't that big of a deal because while in STAL you normally don't have stacks at the start of a fight. So we hit for 3k anyways and the power was just a bonus but not what the Regen build was based on.
Because the set is now worthless, I've found better Tank Gear with more Regen & more Deflect. Which has increased the survival of the build and made it even stronger.
I play pug also but mostly premade cuz my guild is pvp orienten and 24/7 we got atleast 1 party in dominition.
As for your build - f0k your build i play to kill
timeless is good but i dont tried it, bec it doesnt have regen
most GF sets are useless for them
knight captain and high general for example (the 4 set bonus doesnt applies to yourself)
if they implement reworked version stalwart will be even more useless than these 2 sets
they should make better set in the future or improve other GF sets
Trollgre - The issue is the combat specialists team does not want GF's to DPS and wants pure tanks. This is why all of the new sets focus around "Blocking" which is the opposite of conqueror tree build and doesn't understand that CW's are the tanks. They control the add's with singularity and until they nerf CW's ability to CC/control unlimited # of mobs GF's don't need to tank.
Pro speed teams use 2 CW's chaining Sing while DPS bursts everything down or you just outgear the dungeons and zerg everything.
i feel very bad after buying whole set wth my hard earned crystal on my other toons...
Thats really sad they turn a BiS pve set into a garbage set....now how am i going to be usefull to my team!? i dont have anything left to buy another set of gear...and nobody will want to recruit a piece a garbage....thats how it is....
i feel very bad after buying whole set wth my hard earned crystal on my other toons...
Thats really sad they turn a BiS pve set into a garbage set....now how am i going to be usefull to my team!? i dont have anything left to buy another set of gear...and nobody will want to recruit a piece a garbage....thats how it is....
For PvE I'm switching back to Knights Cap set as it will boost your teams power by 60% and defense by 25%. Knight Cap gives about a 20% damage increase to your teammates and a good bit of damage reduction. Also stack a good amount of recovery so you can keep Into the Fray up 100% and this will fix the issue with AP generation that Cryptic has done to your teammates. So with those changes your team is back into OP shape. :P
Trollgre - The issue is the combat specialists team does not want GF's to DPS and wants pure tanks. This is why all of the new sets focus around "Blocking" which is the opposite of conqueror tree build and doesn't understand that CW's are the tanks. They control the add's with singularity and until they nerf CW's ability to CC/control unlimited # of mobs GF's don't need to tank.
Pro speed teams use 2 CW's chaining Sing while DPS bursts everything down or you just outgear the dungeons and zerg everything.
i know theyre nerfing it bec it gives high damage
but the reworked version is useless
what im trying to say is the reworked version is very useless they could just lower the power increase or think a better 4set effect than the reworked version
Regent 4/set effect defense = power
they want tanks to deal some damage too but not so high
stalwart looks OP bec lots of GF are using Tene on it
and everyone knows that most dungeons are not balance making some classes useless
GF cant tank OP and unlimited adds during boss fights they wont last long without heal even if youre a pure tank
Comments
Think about how often i crit with timeless and how often you crit with stalwark
Think about how often i use enounters and how ofte you use them with stalwark
Now think about my base 6000 power from timeless and your need for stacks with stalwark
1st -timeless crits more often
2nd - timeless recharge encounters 25 - 30% more faster / thats about 2 - 2.5 seconds cut /
3rd i dont need stacks to hit for 3.5-5k as you do with stalwark
so for example you have max stats on your stalwark and you do your enounter rotation/ lunge,bull,frontline / which lets say will be like:
lunge - 5k - 8s. cooldown no crit chance
bull - 6.5k - 11s. cooldown no crit chance
frontline 6k - 16.5s cooldown no crit chance
timeless :
lunge - 4k - 6s. cooldown 20% crit chance
bull - 5k - 9s. cooldown 22 % crit chance
frontline - 4.5k - 14s cooldown 24 % crit chance
now by the time you finish with the rotation lunge in on 1-2 seconds /depends how you time them/ SO YOU START YOUR ROTATION AGAIN ! so that puts you on a overall more damage per second ratio
Thats only about the recovery issue, i will save you the critical damage and the 113% soverity that i have becouse i dont want to underestimate you explaining you simple facts.
The numbers you pulled for recovery are inaccurate too. My recovery is 1837 so cooldown on lunging strike is 6.2 seconds. Dismissing my stone which gives me 965 recovery the cooldown on lunging strike is 6.6 seconds. I don't know where you're pulling these 2 seconds from since the difference is 0.4 seconds for me.
Most people will move on to grand regent you will not die as fast as a son of a ***** with that armor like you will in timeless. that and you can still get high power with it.
I play pvp and speak about the dmg in pvp i dont do dungeons and if i do i have different set for it.
Timeless is better for pvp then stal thats all. I am sick of arguing with the wall here.you only put out the same thing over and over again without considering the value of the other set ...
if you want to make comparison more complicated then lets add accessories
with stalwart if you focus on crit you will lose recovery or arpen
if you use timeless you can add more crit and arpen
like the poster above said he has high crit chance you can crit 5x in a row
with stalwart youre lucky if you can crit 1 or 2 x
and also i did not said 30% damage i just gave an example just look how low it adds on bull rush it has higher damage but max stack gives lower damage than lunging strike power is really OP right?
again
arpen > crit > power
power is over rated i have conqueror GF with 6k power but its damage is low compared to low power high arpen build
wonder how tr deals OP damage? its bec of arpen and crit not power
but the difference isnt really that much to mention even.
The point of that was to show you the timeless rotation and its critical bonus. My recovery is 2100 and if you say it DOES NOT make a difference i would say you are one of the many braindead imbeciles in this game.
You also get crit chance with dex a high con and dex focused GF can easily make stalwarts the end all be all set. Lets see 24 dex 24 con 16 Strength Half Orc can achieve this that's 14% crit chance from dex alone and 14% armor ignored you only need to stack 1k armor pen the rest can go to crit cause you get 616 from accessory's 2 rank 10 darks can get you 1212 Armor pen to finish that state out then you can get 916 crit also from just 1 rank 10 azure enchants if your using necromancer rings of undeath load it up with even more HP this build uses 3 offensive slots and 6 defensive slots. This is the build my friend has for her GF as for recovery it dosent matter she can turtle to by time for CD's and in Pve her pet handles that stat
Yes I must be one of those braindead imbeciles that argues with made up numbers I pulled out of my *** instead of using actual game data. Timeless gives you 1271 recovery and Stalwart gives you 492 recovery which is a difference of 779 recovery. Are you trying to say that the 779 recovery is going to make a massive difference when I already tested that with 965 recovery on top of my base of 872 recovery only gives 0.4 seconds on lunging strike.
maxillion2 with dex it only gives armour ignore it does not give you extra crit.
I know i got deflection and crit mixed up sigh But the resistance ignored part is true oh if only dex did give crit chance to GF lolz i think hes is actualy sticking points into wisdom to get his LS at 6 second CD i think he need at least 12 wisdom maby 14 that or he is a half elf
Braindead imbecile
adding P2W items again try adding it to timeless too?
but wheres the crit from stats
my dex shows = resistance ignored / deflect / aoe damage resist
con = ap gain and HP
orc gives crit severity
guard is useless for experienced player so no stun/knock/skill to throw = like a dummy training
faster skill CD = better at PVP
PVE cd doesnt matter unless youre a DC and CW
That is a valid point, if you're primarily interested in PvP. Then again, you won't necessarily always have full stacks of the Timeless buff either. Still, I can see a practical argument for Timeless on a PvP character.
The numerical arguments, on the other hand, unequivocally favor Stalwart. For example:
- Right -- about 10.3% more often, absent any diminished returns.
- ~800 Recovery extra gives you 6.52% Recharge, not 25-30%. And Recharge is not a straight reduction to cooldowns. (Read the stat formula here, and read an explanation of the Recharge mechanic here.)
- No, but you need stacks to maintain your crit chance advantage. And although Timeless' active stack-management requirement might be better in PvP, Stalwart's entirely passive system is arguably (or was arguably) better in PvE.
- The fact that Stalwart's offensive boost came along with superior survivability is an advantage, not a disadvantage, as trollgre would like to frame it.
For the record, I don't have a problem with experienced players making informed decisions based on logistics. In your case, it's perfectly reasonable to decide that you prefer Timeless based on your playstyle preferences. But in order to have a complete understanding of the game, you must combine the empirical with the anecdotal, because the human eye can be quite inaccurate (and because, on the other hand, qualitative factors can sometimes outweigh the quantitative).So in other words, feel free to laugh at all the n00bs in PvP who use Stalwart if that's your opinion of them, but don't tell me that ~10% crit and ~6.5% recharge are mathematically superior to a 35% boost in aggregate damage. The numbers just don't say that.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Quit whining. You should have prepared for this nerf, and you have to live with the investment that you made months ago when a relatively dirt cheap T1 set was beyond BIS for GF's. You benefited from that for months, and if you didn't consider at all that it would eventually come to an end, then the joke's on you.
lol wow chill, I don't care that I spend AD on stalwart, I still use it for PvE. But there are multiple guides that say stalwart is BiS, and if you slotted rank 8's in there it kinda sucks. Doesn't matter whether I think a set is OP or not. By your line of thinking all the BiS sets are fair game to nerf as they are the strongest sets, so we shouldn't socket them?? thats stupid. It was put in the game, it was never brought up until now, how am I supposed to predict it would be nerfed?
Especially when after buying it and doing some pvp I could tell very quickly that having your damage up front and not having to wait for it to build was much better, I realized that it is actually a much weaker set, so I def didn't think it would get nerfed lol.
It just makes more sense to me from a business standpoint to say "We have found this armor to be too strong, we are going to nerf it to the point that it is worthless, and between now and then we will let you unsocket gems free of charge" Even if I lost 400k on the set, and even though they are going to way over nerf it, that explanation along with consideration of players just makes customers happy, and PWE needs that right now.
"We're making this armor worthless, deal with it" also works, but with a bit less effectiveness...
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
BiS slot status doesn't mean it needs a nerf, but looking at that set it was easy to predict that a T1 set bonus that provides 7000 power vs. A T2 set bonus that provides 1250 crit makes that T1 set way over the item budget, and the T1 set was less than half the price since it is easier to obtain. That's why it was obvious that this set would draw ire from players and the devs would likely respond with a nerf to the set bonus, and why I chose not to invest millions worth of enchants into the set.
There's nothing wrong with anyone who decided to invest their money into socketing a Stalwart Set over the last few months, but they now have to live with their decision. Those individuals making posts like "I had no idea..." are out of their minds, and the only person they should be angry with is themselves that they didn't make a wiser decision with their astral diamonds.
I guess it comes down to whether you are a player who thinks it's okay for devs to make changes to items that you had to spend a lot of time and in-game money on to acquire for the sake of the game's balance, or a player who thinks they should never ever have to suffer a nerf no matter what. Being that this is a free to play MMO and the only consideration required by the player to play is their time, and not a subscription fee, I think it's perfectly fair to nerf set bonuses to restore parity to the gear progression.
Pay 500k AD for BiS Stalwart's is a week and a half's worth of time investment, and that old set bonus made every single other set in the game look comparatively trashy. It gave you the best offense and best defense for a cheap price, and wasn't balanced. I'm sorry for those that invested in that set in the short term, but it wasn't a good long term picture to begin with.
Except that it's not better. Crit/ArP are so much more valuable for damage on a GF than power is. I do more damage with random non-set epics and even blue gloves than I do with full stalwarts. The fact is that stalwarts offers only tankiness and power, no Crit/ArP which is the only way you are going to do good damage in PvP.
I switched out my stalwarts and did vastly superior damage, I still have 6-7k power instead of 10k, but I have that power 100% of the time, not only after having been attacked 5 times. Not to mention I had HP in every defense slot to boost stalwart bonus, now I swapped out most of my defense slots for offense ones and have even more ArP/Crit.
Stalwart is inferior to any combination of ArP/Crit gear, and therefore is not OP. Again I don't care that it is now pve only, as thats all I use it for, but don't pretend like it was godly overpowered and I should have seen this coming months ago.
Again what I am saying is that from a customer service standpoint it makes more sense to make people happy than to tell them suck it up. I won't even unsocket if they give it for free, cause I'm going to use it for PvE regardless. I pve so infrequently that it isn't worth my time to get 2 pc grand regent or any T2 other than timeless for dps/pvp.
And 500k AD is average for T2 sets nowadays btw. Also grand regent still has superior tank stats, albeit lower power bonus than stalwarts, so if you're going for tank, that's your BiS. If you're going for DPS, Timeless 4 pc, or timeless 2 pc + 2 non set epics is your BiS. Stalwarts has no place in "End-game" gear, it's just what people use because it's cheap and still decent.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I agree with you.Its my mistake, i post from work like i said i dont have time for research.
Going to edit it when i am able to check for myself.
However
My point is that Timeless is way superier then Stalwart in PvP
When you pvp you need to deliver fast damage... Low cooldown , great opening , easy to maintain stacks , great critical ..
what else"?
Speaking about numbers is fine to a point.But futher of that same points sounds like a rocket science to me. Its a game and many people seem to forget that.I like pvp so i play it.Had the chance to try all the sets from T1 and T2 / without High General / and Timeless is the one that does the best in pvp. As final conclusion .. you still need some sort of a skill level to make those numbers work for you dont you think ?!
Understood. To be clear, I didn't mean to criticize you for fudging the numbers; I just think it's important to present the correct numbers for anyone else who might be reading.
And as I said, you may be right about that. But if you are right about that, you're right because of qualitative/practical factors, not because of any numerically verifiable fact of which I'm aware. In other words, I can't tell you you're wrong for preferring Timeless in a PvP context; hell, I might even agree with you about Timeless in a PvP context, but whether Timeless has a practical advantage in PvP is only tenuously relevant to the issue at hand.
The issue at hand? Based on the developers' design of the itemization/stat budget system in Neverwinter, it was unbalanced per se to have a T1 set bonus that provides anywhere from 6,000-9,000 Power, which scales with a defensive attribute (health) and which requires basically zero active maintenance, to boot. Hell, based on the stat-budget system in Neverwinter (warts and all), it would be crazy to expect that kind of set bonus on a T3 armor.
Now, do I think the Stalwart nerf in the upcoming patch is fair or reasonable? No. Do I think that the stat-budget system as presently designed over-values Power in general? Absolutely. Do I think that Stalwart was necessarily the best tool for every situation and every player? No.
One of the bedrock principles for building a solid MMO community is that you have people who are interested in the numbers, and people who are (for lack of a better term) virtuoso players, and both groups contribute to the collective knowledge of the playing community. Most people do regard Neverwinter as just a game; they're not as interested as I am in empirical testing, and they're not as interested as you are in excelling at PvP. Heck, most of them can't even be bothered to register on the forums.
But rest assured, they do use, and benefit from, the conclusions we draw here, both empirically and anecdotally. We all do.
Fox - You've never faced my build in PvP and that's why you believe timeless is superior. My High HP Regen Tank is superior to timeless in so many ways as it mimic's the Regen Tank GWF. To win the current domination PvP you must hold and cap points. A timeless GF would die in a 1v1 and get destroyed vs. 2 players.
Your experience in PUG games is nothing compared to competitive PvP and once you face a good player using the Regen Tank build you'll quickly realize why timeless lacks the survival in PvP. My guildmates that invested a lot of $$ and time into their Timeless builds all were surprised by my Regen Tank when I destroyed them. Many players have been switching to the Regen build and the survival is godly and even with the nerf to Stal won't change things.
Actually I now have a new set of gear for PvP that pushes me to over 2k Heals a tick and only lost a bit of damage. Going from 2.5k Power to 11.5K Power only doubles the damage of encounters... So from 3k to 6k --- Which isn't that big of a deal because while in STAL you normally don't have stacks at the start of a fight. So we hit for 3k anyways and the power was just a bonus but not what the Regen build was based on.
Because the set is now worthless, I've found better Tank Gear with more Regen & more Deflect. Which has increased the survival of the build and made it even stronger.
I play pug also but mostly premade cuz my guild is pvp orienten and 24/7 we got atleast 1 party in dominition.
As for your build - f0k your build i play to kill
most GF sets are useless for them
knight captain and high general for example (the 4 set bonus doesnt applies to yourself)
if they implement reworked version stalwart will be even more useless than these 2 sets
they should make better set in the future or improve other GF sets
Pro speed teams use 2 CW's chaining Sing while DPS bursts everything down or you just outgear the dungeons and zerg everything.
Thats really sad they turn a BiS pve set into a garbage set....now how am i going to be usefull to my team!? i dont have anything left to buy another set of gear...and nobody will want to recruit a piece a garbage....thats how it is....
For PvE I'm switching back to Knights Cap set as it will boost your teams power by 60% and defense by 25%. Knight Cap gives about a 20% damage increase to your teammates and a good bit of damage reduction. Also stack a good amount of recovery so you can keep Into the Fray up 100% and this will fix the issue with AP generation that Cryptic has done to your teammates. So with those changes your team is back into OP shape. :P
i know theyre nerfing it bec it gives high damage
but the reworked version is useless
what im trying to say is the reworked version is very useless they could just lower the power increase or think a better 4set effect than the reworked version
Regent 4/set effect defense = power
they want tanks to deal some damage too but not so high
stalwart looks OP bec lots of GF are using Tene on it
and everyone knows that most dungeons are not balance making some classes useless
GF cant tank OP and unlimited adds during boss fights they wont last long without heal even if youre a pure tank