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Gameplay updates for GWF

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  • chronomancerchronomancer Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 1,223
    edited June 2013
    spacejew wrote: »
    Some tool tip information:

    Before:
    Sure Strike: 475-557
    Wicked Strike: 575-673
    Not So Fast: 887-1039

    After:
    Sure Strike: 598-700
    Wicked Strike: 661-774
    Not So Fast: 1331-1558

    Also it allows you to change your character from the main menu after logging into a character.

    EDIT:

    Change character is just change character, no a respec =(

    The change to "Not So Fast" is very very good.
  • spacejewspacejew Member Posts: 1,044 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Numbers on tooltip are affected by your stats dynamicaly.
    For example i have 678- 973 on wicked strike

    Yes, that's just to compare values before and after. Obviously your tool tip will be different, but it will no doubt have the same ratio of change.
    MoF/Thaum CW SS/Thaum CW IV/Protector GF SW/Combat HR SM/Destroyer GWF WK/Executioner TR DO/Faithful DC
  • theliethesametheliethesame Member Posts: 104 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    The change to "Not So Fast" is very very good.

    It is good overall, because of the decreased cd. It is mostly of a utility tool, not a dmg bumper.If you play instigator think it like this : Less cd=more uptime on combat advantage

    If you play Destroyer you dont youse Not So Fast at all
  • l0th4ri0l0th4ri0 Member Posts: 589 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Some "first blush" notes after trying test shard:

    NSF did indeed get more useful. It's not an "I win" button, but it does get more damage now.

    The highly advertised CD reductions on our encounters are a base 1.1 seconds with no gear or feats. For example, NSF is now a base 13.4 sec CD instead of 14.5. I hope you guys weren't planning on getting much more out of your encounter skills. :)

    Mighty leap's range is bigger, allowing you to surprise, but damage is still meh.

    Spinning Strike now has a noticeable chance to deflect. You still eat damage like it's candy at low levels, and it puts out pathetic DPS. Fail on this, even if the deflect chance was 100% and you were totally immune. Much better to use RS a couple of times than this daily.

    That's all I got for now. Started at lvl 1 to see how early game is, still undecided about if it's any better.
  • yultyult Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 181 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    I just got off the test server and did some comparing. Not extensively, just some basic stuff. Here is what I found:

    Not So Fast - 50% damage increase, 20% cooldown reduction
    Takedown - ~25% cooldown reduction
    Come and Get It - 20% cooldown reduction
    Wicked Strike - 20% damage increase
    Roar - ~8% cooldown reduction

    Sorry I didn't check anything else. Also, Wicked Strike appears to be bugged. Sometimes stutters and stops after first swing.

    Here are the actual test server vs live server numbers on abilities:

    Not So Fast: 10s – 1541-1803 - 12.5s 1027-1202
    Takedown: 9.1s – 12.5s
    Wicked Strike: 664-777 578-676
    CaGI: 12.5s - 15s
    Roar: 10.8s – 11.6s


    Edit: looks like someone beat me to it. oh well.
  • theliethesametheliethesame Member Posts: 104 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    I don't see any change on my Health while using Unstoppable, and i think Student of the Sword works properly now. I am wondering if this changes the ammount of armPen we need
  • talvos38talvos38 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Very disappointed with the changes, as it seems a lot of us are. Oh well, my cleric is almost at 60, so I won't have much more reason to play the gwf... even though it is so much more fun then the cleric, but honestly I like feeling like I have done something in a run, other then standing around spamming WMS and watching the rogue brag about his 34k bleed ticks. Excuse me while I go pout for a bit.
  • theliethesametheliethesame Member Posts: 104 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    If they could tweek Come and Get it to make it more useful. Like bigger area of effect , faster pulling, and maybe extra dmg for 3 seconds instead only in 1 hit .Also a good extra benefit could be sweet from feats. Like adding it to Allied Opportunity for Instigator amd Relentless Assault for Destroyer.I thinks its an uderastimated ability that with some love can be pretty useful for dps and utility .With any of these changes I would prefer it over Not so Fast for Instigator to be honest.
    A small buff to WMS or its debuff is needed also.

    Other than that, a little tweeking on Feats is needed in my opinion. While Instigator seems promising now, and Sentinel not so attractive for the class purpose (though there should be as an opntion imo), Destroyer needs a buff to be in line. Maybe not a great buff, but some tweeking at least.
    For example :
    Add 10% at-will damage in addition to encounter on Destroyer's purpose, or double the one Great weapon focus
    Add another 15-25% in Battle Awareness bonuses, or maybe a debuff on enemies while Slam is active (damage resistance penalty will do) so it can be a valid choice (to make it more appealing for AoE situations were spec really hurts)

    For Instigator, the only change I think that must be done is on Instigator's Vengeance. Loosing all stacks on 1 attack is quite punishing. Make it loosing 1 stack on each hit suffered, loose maximum 1 stack per second, loose stacks after 3-5 attacks on you, or loose stacks 3 seconds after you are being hit, so you can at least some uptime and actually benefit from it even for 3 seconds (5 would be ideal but maybe op)
  • spacejewspacejew Member Posts: 1,044 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Not So Fast isn't so bad for a Destroyer actually, especially true now. There's definitely less of a reason to go with Roar if you're packing Reaping Strike.

    The buff to Sure Strike is really making me want to change over and abandon RS. Just not sure I could live with the reduced Determination gain. (And yes, Sure Strike produces less Determination than RS even still.)
    MoF/Thaum CW SS/Thaum CW IV/Protector GF SW/Combat HR SM/Destroyer GWF WK/Executioner TR DO/Faithful DC
  • asdfasdfgfasdfasdfgf Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 237 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    After watching the Gauntlgrym video, I'm not seeing a large amount of mob dump ledge areas. Sure 1 CW can perma juggle, but clearing them without a GWF might prove a bit difficult.
  • silvist00silvist00 Member Posts: 18 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    @spacejew - But, the amount of determination gain with SS has definitely increased. I did a couple dungeon runs, and noticed a huge difference.
  • tyr216tyr216 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    talvos38 wrote: »
    Very disappointed with the changes, as it seems a lot of us are. Oh well, my cleric is almost at 60, so I won't have much more reason to play the gwf... even though it is so much more fun then the cleric, but honestly I like feeling like I have done something in a run, other then standing around spamming WMS and watching the rogue brag about his 34k bleed ticks. Excuse me while I go pout for a bit.

    I'm just wondering what would make you guys happy. Rogues have always had single target superiority over warriors in virtually every MMORPG. Why would you expect that archetype to change? The GWF does have its place in the group. Its a melee aoe dps with off-tank capabilities. The only point we have to complain about now is CW's doing more aoe damage when CW's supposed to be more about control. That's a legitimate gripe, I'll give you that. But complaining about rogues? C'mon. The GWF should never beat the TR on single targets, just like the TR shouldnt have the AoE output of the GWF.

    CW's and GWF's should be each other's best friend. The CW should set them up so the GWF can knock them down. The problem right now is that the CW outshines in AoE damage capacity as well, which is basically stealing GWF's job. If they would fix that, we wouldn't have any legitimate gripes left other than the usual feats and powers not working properly, which is something every class deals with. We asked for buffs; we got buffs. Maybe we need to ask for a CW AoE damage nerf, since that's the class that's really making us look bad now, especially once these buffs go live.
  • silknightsilknight Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 199
    edited June 2013
    These changes didn't really help the GWF, sure it buffed him a little, but the real problems with the class are still there, and won't be fixed now it seems. This class will sink further and further as new classes are added.
  • asdfasdfgfasdfasdfgf Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 237 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    tyr216 wrote: »
    I'm just wondering what would make you guys happy. Rogues have always had single target superiority over warriors in virtually every MMORPG. Why would you expect that archetype to change? The GWF does have its place in the group. Its a melee aoe dps with off-tank capabilities. The only point we have to complain about now is CW's doing more aoe damage when CW's supposed to be more about control. That's a legitimate gripe, I'll give you that. But complaining about rogues? C'mon. The GWF should never beat the TR on single targets, just like the TR shouldnt have the AoE output of the GWF.

    CW's and GWF's should be each other's best friend. The CW should set them up so the GWF can knock them down. The problem right now is that the CW outshines in AoE damage capacity as well, which is basically stealing GWF's job. If they would fix that, we wouldn't have any legitimate gripes left other than the usual feats and powers not working properly, which is something every class deals with. We asked for buffs; we got buffs. Maybe we need to ask for a CW AoE damage nerf, since that's the class that's really making us look bad now, especially once these buffs go live.

    Our usual CW is geared out just as well as my GWF(12.7k) and I always out-dps him. Stop taking into account the CW benefiting from fall damage on mobs when he tosses them off of cliffs...
  • theliethesametheliethesame Member Posts: 104 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    spacejew wrote: »
    Not So Fast isn't so bad for a Destroyer actually, especially true now. There's definitely less of a reason to go with Roar if you're packing Reaping Strike.

    The buff to Sure Strike is really making me want to change over and abandon RS. Just not sure I could live with the reduced Determination gain. (And yes, Sure Strike produces less Determination than RS even still.)

    I would try Come and Get it if not darting shout for RS build if i were you. I know the 3 sec of the buff and the charge time of RS is making it hard (if not impossible), but if you are specced into Powerful Challenge (Darting Shout) , otherwise Come and Get it, the dmg boost is pretty neat (15%). Even if not appropriate for RS, i would prefer 1 of this 2 over Not So Fast for big IBS hits to be honest.
  • mellinthmellinth Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 23 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Anyone else noticing significantly less rubberbanding on the preview realm than on live servers? It probably has a lot to do with server load, but I didn't have a serious rubberbanding problem before a week and a half ago or so after some patch. The game is infinitely more enjoyable like this. I just hope it sticks.
  • l0th4ri0l0th4ri0 Member Posts: 589 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I think the game devs are "lost" with our class, guys. You can't just add a tiny buff to some things and expect the roots of the class structure problems to just magically go away. I have a feeling that they are trying to make the best use of some art assets they have coded, and did not really plan ahead with what the class should actually be trying to accomplish. I'm all for what looks cool and everything, but... come on now. :)

    Our job is OT mob killing... give us the tools and means to do that efficiently. We should not be awesome at taking down bosses with DoT, nor should we be doing massive single target burst damage. We should be really really good at killing lots and lots of little guys very very quickly. Parties should be breathing a sigh of relief when they see us queue up with them in a pug. "Thank GOD we have a GWF! Now the adds might be not so much of a hassle! YES!"

    Could you imagine that? :)

    SO, I'm not ready to give up on this class yet, but in order for GWF to matter there needs to be REAL change from what we have now. Tweaks are not gonna cut it this time. Problem is, if I'm right about the dev team just trying to make use of art assets and keep the complaints down to a dull roar, the needed changes are not going to occur unless we, in force, tell the devs that this current incarnation of the class sucks, and give solid reasons why and where it fails, and how to make it better.

    Keep in mind that other games do not have this issue with such a clunky heavy weapon class. For one example, if you've ever played another title from PWE called RaiderZ (which is also a F2P action mmorpg) they implemented their version of the GWF with finesse and pure awesomeness. That game as a whole is very lite on features in comparison to NWO, but they did not screw up their class structures... they did it right. So what I'm trying to say is that fixing the GWF for our game here is NOT an impossible task, but the devs need to at least TRY. Maybe we can help them do a little redesign with some reasonable (and loud) input on our part. If we keep quiet and just take it, they are going to ignore us.
  • asdfasdfgfasdfasdfgf Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 237 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    If they want GWF's to be more significant, they need to put up invisible walls on every ledge preventing the 'business as usual' ledge tossing. Question becomes, will the tears of the masses for reducing the speed of their clears be warranted by making GWF's useful/appreciated?
  • spacejewspacejew Member Posts: 1,044 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    I would try Come and Get it if not darting shout for RS build if i were you. I know the 3 sec of the buff and the charge time of RS is making it hard (if not impossible), but if you are specced into Powerful Challenge (Darting Shout) , otherwise Come and Get it, the dmg boost is pretty neat (15%). Even if not appropriate for RS, i would prefer 1 of this 2 over Not So Fast for big IBS hits to be honest.

    That's already what I do, so yes I do agree with you. Other than Powerful Challenge, that is, as Marks are virtually useless since they fall of when being hit. When taking into account the massive AoE in T2, they are really not worth it.
    MoF/Thaum CW SS/Thaum CW IV/Protector GF SW/Combat HR SM/Destroyer GWF WK/Executioner TR DO/Faithful DC
  • tyr216tyr216 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    asdfasdfgf wrote: »
    Our usual CW is geared out just as well as my GWF(12.7k) and I always out-dps him. Stop taking into account the CW benefiting from fall damage on mobs when he tosses them off of cliffs...

    So it's a perceptual superiority created by damage meter bloat. Maybe they should make it so fall damage isn't calculated into the damage meters so public perception isn't so skewed against the GWF.
  • theliethesametheliethesame Member Posts: 104 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    spacejew wrote: »
    That's already what I do, so yes I do agree with you. Other than Powerful Challenge, that is, as Marks are virtually useless since they fall of when being hit. When taking into account the massive AoE in T2, they are really not worth it.

    Yes i find Power Challenge underwhelming in T2 too (like Instigators Vengeance). As i mentioned above, they should tweak these a bit, so you take at least a benefit from them, even if it is 2-3 sec. This is why in my opinion Roar is outperfoming them for Destroyer in t2 content. Use it on 4-5 targets and you get half determination bar and a massive amount of Action Points.

    As I am in Instigator spec now (with a major fault on using stunning Flourish over Group Assault lol), I pretty much abandoned Flourish in favor of Roar. As I am trying to get enough AD to buy a respec token, I am pretty troubled if I should go Instigator again, or try Destroyer one more time (this time speccing into disciple of war in place of Powerful Challenge). I was really tempted for the later, till todays patch notes tbh. I guess I will try Destroyer if I get the respec soon enough, then spec back into Instigator unless there is a major change
  • asdfasdfgfasdfasdfgf Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 237 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    tyr216 wrote: »
    So it's a perceptual superiority created by damage meter bloat. Maybe they should make it so fall damage isn't calculated into the damage meters so public perception isn't so skewed against the GWF.

    Did people never wonder why the CW who is solely responsible for tossing mobs off of ledges form the Dracholich fight is always higher dps than the TRs/GWF fighting Dracholich? lol.
  • kwazikwazi Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    That's weird, I've never been outdamaged by a CW in CN even after dracolich.
  • tyr216tyr216 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    asdfasdfgf wrote: »
    Did people never wonder why the CW who is solely responsible for tossing mobs off of ledges form the Dracholich fight is always higher dps than the TRs/GWF fighting Dracholich? lol.

    Well, all I see are giant tear drops from the community about how CW "does more aoe damage." So they either have to remove the fall damage from counting towards total damage done or nerf mobs getting knocked back. Otherwise, the community perception that GWF's suck will continue despite any buffs we get.
  • l0th4ri0l0th4ri0 Member Posts: 589 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    The CW ledge-knocking is just part of the problem, I think.

    As a GWF, ask yourself: "Am I obviously the best class for clearing mobs? Why or why not?"

    Can we all agree that the GWF is supposed to be the offtank mob-killer? Does anybody here harbor any illusions about being the front-line tank or the boss-killing burst-damage specialist? :)
  • tarnisradtarnisrad Member Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    l0th4ri0 wrote: »
    The CW ledge-knocking is just part of the problem, I think.

    As a GWF, ask yourself: "Am I obviously the best class for clearing mobs? Why or why not?"

    Can we all agree that the GWF is supposed to be the offtank mob-killer? Does anybody here harbor any illusions about being the front-line tank or the boss-killing burst-damage specialist? :)

    The off-tank does a significantly worse job damaging and controlling than the dedicated tank. Can we all agree that that's pretty strange?
    Daint's the name. Pizza's my game.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • kidbskidbs Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 294
    edited June 2013
    tarnisrad wrote: »
    The off-tank does a significantly worse job damaging and controlling than the dedicated tank. Can we all agree that that's pretty strange?

    I don't think that they should do worse damage, but I don't necessarily agree that GWFs should do more damage than GFs either. They are both tanks, they just have different methods of mitigating damage and different tanking roles.
  • llfritzllllfritzll Member Posts: 215 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    kidbs wrote: »
    I don't think that they should do worse damage, but I don't necessarily agree that GWFs should do more damage than GFs either. They are both tanks, they just have different methods of mitigating damage and different tanking roles.

    They should do superior aoe damage and have superior tools for dealing with groups of trash.
    That is my opinion anyhow.

    The way I see the GF is designed to be mostly stationary using their block to mitigate the big hits of the boss while the GWF runs around the field using his AOE to keep the trash off the cleric and burn them down. A GWF has to be able to kill them fast enough so he doesn't accumulate so many enemies that the cleric can't heal through it.
  • l0th4ri0l0th4ri0 Member Posts: 589 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Okay, now we're getting somewhere, guys. This is how you design a class... you figure out what it's supposed to do. lol

    NOW

    How is it that we're failing to do our jobs? Why are we not able to handle the mobs better than everybody else, when that is our primary function? What needs to get reworked?

    I personally think that our cap of 5 targets on our abilities needs to go first of all, or at least get set to 10 or 12. We should be able to peel mobs away from folks better than any other class. Hell, make it a feat if you have to... a feat that raises the cap limit on your abilities with each point dropped into it. This lets us accomplish most of our job right there.... we don't need tremendous boosts to damage, we need more AoE effectiveness.
  • chronomancerchronomancer Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 1,223
    edited June 2013
    Initial impression from the test server:

    Just got off the test server after playing around for around 10-15 minutes. Can't do much testing yet since they didn't give out any free respec and i'm freshly out of cash (AD). You can't use the cash shop either.

    Found a few bugs:

    1. If you use Takedown in while in town the skill refreshing almost instantly (2 sec. cooldown) (bug). Significant reduction of cooldown from I think from 12 seconds down to 8 (I have Relentless Battle Fury). <- this will make people QQ as you can almost stunlock them with Flourish + Takedown and coup de grace with IWS. The biggest change is the reach. It has a bigger reach now when you execute the skill at around 13" yards (like range of Flourish).

    2. Sure strike does 20% more damage now..I kinda doubt people will use it often except in PvP situations. TBH ... 20% more damage might not be even enough. Since it's a single target skill I think 50% more damage is a more acceptable trade off.

    3. Wicked Strike is now a must have. And is clearly superior to Sure Strike. And it's an AOE skill.

    4. Not So Fast - Very good for pvp and party CC. Better damage.

    5. I think they fixed a bug in Steadfast Determination so it now properly gives you more Determination.
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