the notes read to me like your pve spec is supposed to be offtank.
realistically a GF cannot tank everything. they have target limits and they can only take so much damage.
seems like they are aiming to have GWF be the pve offtank.
considering clerics low output, but almost all aoe, healing, it sort of makes sense.
Offtank role is completely superflous when the CW are able to juggle all the add's all the time while killing them all because of the juggling. The Sentinel spec for GWF is the most obviously useless, and will probably remain that way forever. Cryptic is trying to make Sentinel viable, but in doing so they're ignoring the core problems with GWF.
Like I've said perhaps the nerfs to TR and CW will make GWF more of a contender, but since CW only received a damage nerf and not a control nerf two of them are probably still the best option for rendering 100% of add's completely moot. They can either knock them off, or keep them in the air 100% of the time. Where does off tanking fit into that equation?
EDIT:
Everyone that gives a **** should sign up for their preview server. It's apparently available now, so enough forum QQ lets get to work.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Let's not give in to despair just yet, spacejew...
But he has a point, if we are to get anything done with regards to REAL class fixes, we need to get ourselves heard. GFs *****ed and moaned for a month before the devs even acknowledged that block was broken. There were 5 threads about it, or something. If we can get ourselves organized early-on, and make a consistent and well-reasoned argument for what needs to be fixed exactly instead of just white noise about how this sucks, then we have a real chance to get the GWF closer to "right".
My 2:
1. AoE cones for everything (even SS should have a narrow cone, but able to hit multiple mobs), with NO CAPS on number of mobs affected.
2. Reaping Strike needs a 1 or 2 second charge time. That's it. 1 sec for unstoppable, 2 secs for non-unstoppable.
3. Either make spinning strike do 5X more damage or get rid of it.
4. Paragon paths need some tuning to address base class duties. AoE builds need to be viable for every single path, not just 1... because that's our **** JOB.
Feel free to add more, please guys. The sooner we get on this the better chance we have of success.
I tend to agree that the GWF needs to hit more targets than other classes. Not uncapped, but higher than five targets. The very fact that CW has a daily that's uncapped is one of the reasons it pulls ahead. Arcane Singularity being chainable is the reason GWF are not required as an off tank. Two chainable Arcane Singularities trivializes content more than anything else I've encountered yet.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
The test server is up ? I am in to test all night long.
Yeah it's a 5000 meg update to get into the test server, downloading it now and I'll probably fool around with it for at least tonight. I'll post some comparisons soon but it probably won't be until tomorrow at the earliest. To be honest I'm more interested in seeing what the changes mean for CW and TR since those are probably the biggest changes in the patch notes. At the very least I want to see the new values for Wicked Strike and Sure Strike since that's about the only meaningful thing that's changed.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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marshmallowninjaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 15Arc User
edited June 2013
I believe that with the debuffs done to the other classes and the fact that dual DC's will no longer be viable will at least put us back in the running for getting into a decent group. I believe the GWF damage is pretty good as it stands and shouldnt be messed with overall. While they did buff/fix most of our broken feats or underwhelming abilities they decreased our overall cooldowns which will enable us to cast our abilities almost twice as often thus increasing our dps.
I believe that with the debuffs done to the other classes and the fact that dual DC's will no longer be viable will at least put us back in the running for getting into a decent group. I believe the GWF damage is pretty good as it stands and shouldnt be messed with overall. While they did buff/fix most of our broken feats or underwhelming abilities they decreased our overall cooldowns which will enable us to cast our abilities almost twice as often thus increasing our dps.
Encounters were never the primary source of GWF DPS, and will continue to contribute very little to over all damage done. Especially since most of the cooldowns affected were utility powers such as Come and Get It and Battle Fury.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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mellinthMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 23Arc User
Wow, I feel you guys didn't even read the patch notes. There was HUGE amounts of nerfs, along with buffs. Such as no longer stacking astral shields.
I do feel that our buff is for sure more in the tanking field, mainly due to this:
"Unstoppable: This power now grants temporary health based on how much Determination the player had when activating it."
In terms of pvp, I really like this change, as stun/interrupt is essential:
"Takedown: The range of this power has been increased."
For all you guys know, our AOE hits after the update will create so much agro that you will "have to tank", and nobody will be able to get all the mobs off you save a black hole (which is temp).
For all you guys know, our AOE hits after the update will create so much agro that you will "have to tank", and nobody will be able to get all the mobs off you save a black hole (which is temp).
Only it isn't 'temp', it's an ability the CW can chain with itself. Arcane Singularity might as well be perma if the CW is decent.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
NO...NO...NO... this is BAD! GWF still useless, this buff is pvp only. My 2 mages can still toss mobs in 2 perma black holes while I and my second TR take down the boss. Until u make him a single target DPS striker OR put invisible wall over EVERY LEDGE in the dungeon gwf is still garbage.
Carnage TR Dragon shard - retired? hell yea it's retired along with Nevewinter
I'm DLing the test shard update now... but I'm gonna start a new char to see what early game is like. I'll let the rest of you guys do the lvl 60 testing for now.
NO...NO...NO... this is BAD! GWF still useless, this buff is pvp only. My 2 mages can still toss mobs in 2 perma black holes while I and my second TR take down the boss. Until u make him a single target DPS striker OR put invisible wall over EVERY LEDGE in the dungeon gwf is still garbage.
Second TR is now rendered moot, just like a second DC. Read the notes, then cry. There's plenty to actually be mad about without being an obvious fool.
Two CW might, or might not, still be the best way to go. I can't test CW stacking since I don't have a CW, I'll need to lurk on the CW boards to see how that goes.
Being able to use Roar more often would i think significantly boost DPS in the long term.
It's capped at five targets per cast, whereas WMS hits 10 mobs per cast and WS hits 15 mobs over it's full cast time. We'll see with the actual reduced cooldown times but encounters are not the primary source of DPS either way. Obviously, casting it more often would result in some added damage but really over the course of an entire dungeon how do you think Roar compares to WMS?
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Encounters were never the primary source of GWF DPS, and will continue to contribute very little to over all damage done. Especially since most of the cooldowns affected were utility powers such as Come and Get It and Battle Fury.
Being able to use Roar more often would i think significantly boost DPS in the long term. My feeling is Destroyer will be kinda left behind... the most viable tree will be Instigator or Sentinel.
Second TR is now rendered moot, just like a second DC. Read the notes, then cry. There's plenty to actually be mad about without being an obvious fool.
Second TR provides so much DPS even without bleeds that GWF cannot even dream about. 2tr 2cw 1dc, nothing changed. Only thing that changed is we have to switch out enchanted GP offhand for usual ancient shiv.
Carnage TR Dragon shard - retired? hell yea it's retired along with Nevewinter
Seze - Rogue - Necropolis - RIFT
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
edited June 2013
Once again, none of the wizard's powers have reduced damage for hitting multiple targets. Wizards still deal more damage from distance, without the need to chase monsters.
Why is this a thing?
Second TR provides so much DPS even without bleeds that GWF cannot even dream about. 2tr 2cw 1dc, nothing changed. Only thing that changed is we have to switch out enchanted GP offhand for usual ancient shiv.
You're a tool. The bleed accounts for something like 60% of a TR's damage output. Not being able to stack the bleed on a boss means the second TR is worthless. People were already not taking two TR along before the nerf, and you think that's going to change after the nerf?
Please.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
And who would I take into the dungeon instead of second TR.. gwf or gf? ***** please.....
It would be a second CW, since that's verbatim what I've said already. A GF might be included since they're changing aggro mechanics, so I'm giving them the benefit of a doubt when considering AS will no longer stack thus rendering double DC moot.
CW is the last class that could be worth stacking, purely for the fact that add's become completely moot when they are rendered dead or airborne. As the gent a few posts back stated, CW damage does not split between targets and several CW abilities exceed the five target cap. Admittedly the only ones I know of that do exceed the cap are dailies, but also admittedly CW can chain their dailies with very little downtime before the patch.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Being able to use Roar more often would i think significantly boost DPS in the long term. My feeling is Destroyer will be kinda left behind... the most viable tree will be Instigator or Sentinel.
For Instigator i would really go Student of the Sword ,unless they havent fixed it yet.
For Sentinel, you will still have a lot of AoE tanking to do, so Sure strike feat (Intimidation) wont really help you, while Defiance (25% more threat on Slam and Spinning +25% more defense while up), will give you better threat+extra defensive power. Also, if threat will work properly, and you actually hold aggro, i would change Great Weapon Focus for Unstoppable Recovery, since this will be almost a passive extra 5% health
Also , changing the Weapon mastery + Fast runner points for 9% extra hit points will come handy for survivability .I would suggest to drop Discipline of Strength for Toughness, and the 3 points i mentioned before into Constitution focus or Steely defense better
(Powerfull Challenge wont help, since Darting's Shout and IBS marks erase when the target hits you, ands thats the case in tanking, so you can say its mostly a dps option for destroyer extra points)
tyr216Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
I just checked out the changes and I think it's definitely a big step in the right direction. The at-wills that needed to be buffed the most got buffed. Majority of our encounters get a shorter cool down. Some encounters were flat out made better. Mighty Leap for example. So what Reaping Strike didnt get buffed? It didnt need to get buffed. It was the other at-wills that needed to be brought up to the same level.
I'm very happy with the changes. It's not just PvP buffs; it's buffs all around. Leveling will suck a lot less, that's for sure. Plus there will be more viable builds at end-game. Sentinels will be able to effectively off-tank now, instead of the pseudo-tanking its been doing. With 20man content on the horizon, the GWF off-tank will have its uses for sure.
We've all been crying for buffs, and now we're getting them. Let's not look a gift horse in the mouth. They addressed the areas that needed them the most without over-committing to radical changes that would overhaul the way the class plays. Let's see where the class stands after these changes are implemented compared to the other classes before we start crying that this patch isn't any good.
Looks to be roughly a 20% boost on sure strike/wicked strike, and again around a 20% cooldown reduction on most skills.. Not So Fast got what appears to be a 50% damage boost. Didn't have much time to check it out so it's just based off a quick 5 min look-over at everything. Sentinel GWFs look like theyve got some big potential in the future though, so i'm going to be looking into those after the 20th
Looks to be roughly a 20% boost on sure strike/wicked strike, and again around a 20% cooldown reduction on most skills.. Not So Fast got what appears to be a 50% damage boost. Didn't have much time to check it out so it's just based off a quick 5 min look-over at everything. Sentinel GWFs look like theyve got some big potential in the future though, so i'm going to be looking into those after the 20th
Just started patching. If its 20% buff then its more than enough on a first thought. I still believe this is more in benefit of Instigator to be honest (shorter cd on Roar and NsF=better utility and WS buff is on multiple targets while SS on 1). Were your skills reset or a free respec token?
Edit: I wonder if the steedfast determination fix will make it viable enough to use as an Instigator over Weapon Master or Steel Blitz/Destroyer (the first i guess). Lots of testings to do ,better the respec button is unlocked for all the testing period
Edit2: No respec token or reset, i guess you still have to pay normal zen lol.Also steedfast determination hardly seems any different
Comments
Offtank role is completely superflous when the CW are able to juggle all the add's all the time while killing them all because of the juggling. The Sentinel spec for GWF is the most obviously useless, and will probably remain that way forever. Cryptic is trying to make Sentinel viable, but in doing so they're ignoring the core problems with GWF.
Like I've said perhaps the nerfs to TR and CW will make GWF more of a contender, but since CW only received a damage nerf and not a control nerf two of them are probably still the best option for rendering 100% of add's completely moot. They can either knock them off, or keep them in the air 100% of the time. Where does off tanking fit into that equation?
EDIT:
Everyone that gives a **** should sign up for their preview server. It's apparently available now, so enough forum QQ lets get to work.
But he has a point, if we are to get anything done with regards to REAL class fixes, we need to get ourselves heard. GFs *****ed and moaned for a month before the devs even acknowledged that block was broken. There were 5 threads about it, or something. If we can get ourselves organized early-on, and make a consistent and well-reasoned argument for what needs to be fixed exactly instead of just white noise about how this sucks, then we have a real chance to get the GWF closer to "right".
My 2:
1. AoE cones for everything (even SS should have a narrow cone, but able to hit multiple mobs), with NO CAPS on number of mobs affected.
2. Reaping Strike needs a 1 or 2 second charge time. That's it. 1 sec for unstoppable, 2 secs for non-unstoppable.
3. Either make spinning strike do 5X more damage or get rid of it.
4. Paragon paths need some tuning to address base class duties. AoE builds need to be viable for every single path, not just 1... because that's our **** JOB.
Feel free to add more, please guys. The sooner we get on this the better chance we have of success.
I tend to agree that the GWF needs to hit more targets than other classes. Not uncapped, but higher than five targets. The very fact that CW has a daily that's uncapped is one of the reasons it pulls ahead. Arcane Singularity being chainable is the reason GWF are not required as an off tank. Two chainable Arcane Singularities trivializes content more than anything else I've encountered yet.
Yeah it's a 5000 meg update to get into the test server, downloading it now and I'll probably fool around with it for at least tonight. I'll post some comparisons soon but it probably won't be until tomorrow at the earliest. To be honest I'm more interested in seeing what the changes mean for CW and TR since those are probably the biggest changes in the patch notes. At the very least I want to see the new values for Wicked Strike and Sure Strike since that's about the only meaningful thing that's changed.
Encounters were never the primary source of GWF DPS, and will continue to contribute very little to over all damage done. Especially since most of the cooldowns affected were utility powers such as Come and Get It and Battle Fury.
Could you elaborate on how to do that? I wasn't able to find it.
Edit: Nevermind, I found it.
For those interested, it's under the "The Game" dropdown at the top of the page. Click on "Preview" and follow the instructions.
I do feel that our buff is for sure more in the tanking field, mainly due to this:
"Unstoppable: This power now grants temporary health based on how much Determination the player had when activating it."
In terms of pvp, I really like this change, as stun/interrupt is essential:
"Takedown: The range of this power has been increased."
For all you guys know, our AOE hits after the update will create so much agro that you will "have to tank", and nobody will be able to get all the mobs off you save a black hole (which is temp).
http://nw.perfectworld.com/preview
Only it isn't 'temp', it's an ability the CW can chain with itself. Arcane Singularity might as well be perma if the CW is decent.
Seze - Rogue - Necropolis -
Second TR is now rendered moot, just like a second DC. Read the notes, then cry. There's plenty to actually be mad about without being an obvious fool.
Two CW might, or might not, still be the best way to go. I can't test CW stacking since I don't have a CW, I'll need to lurk on the CW boards to see how that goes.
It's capped at five targets per cast, whereas WMS hits 10 mobs per cast and WS hits 15 mobs over it's full cast time. We'll see with the actual reduced cooldown times but encounters are not the primary source of DPS either way. Obviously, casting it more often would result in some added damage but really over the course of an entire dungeon how do you think Roar compares to WMS?
Being able to use Roar more often would i think significantly boost DPS in the long term. My feeling is Destroyer will be kinda left behind... the most viable tree will be Instigator or Sentinel.
I would would build my Instigator like this:
http://nwcalc.com/gwf?b=cn4:2hwcg:5m9s,1x1l02i:b0uz1:b5000:60000&h=0
or Sentinel like this:
http://nwcalc.com/gwf?b=cn4:2hwcg:5m9s,1x1l02i:60000:b0000:6uzz1&h=0
You can substitute Great Weapon Focus with Defiance.
Second TR provides so much DPS even without bleeds that GWF cannot even dream about. 2tr 2cw 1dc, nothing changed. Only thing that changed is we have to switch out enchanted GP offhand for usual ancient shiv.
Seze - Rogue - Necropolis -
Why is this a thing?
You're a tool. The bleed accounts for something like 60% of a TR's damage output. Not being able to stack the bleed on a boss means the second TR is worthless. People were already not taking two TR along before the nerf, and you think that's going to change after the nerf?
Please.
And who would I take into the dungeon instead of second TR.. gwf or gf? ***** please.....
Seze - Rogue - Necropolis -
Good thing nobody asked you. lol
It would be a second CW, since that's verbatim what I've said already. A GF might be included since they're changing aggro mechanics, so I'm giving them the benefit of a doubt when considering AS will no longer stack thus rendering double DC moot.
CW is the last class that could be worth stacking, purely for the fact that add's become completely moot when they are rendered dead or airborne. As the gent a few posts back stated, CW damage does not split between targets and several CW abilities exceed the five target cap. Admittedly the only ones I know of that do exceed the cap are dailies, but also admittedly CW can chain their dailies with very little downtime before the patch.
For Instigator i would really go Student of the Sword ,unless they havent fixed it yet.
For Sentinel, you will still have a lot of AoE tanking to do, so Sure strike feat (Intimidation) wont really help you, while Defiance (25% more threat on Slam and Spinning +25% more defense while up), will give you better threat+extra defensive power. Also, if threat will work properly, and you actually hold aggro, i would change Great Weapon Focus for Unstoppable Recovery, since this will be almost a passive extra 5% health
Also , changing the Weapon mastery + Fast runner points for 9% extra hit points will come handy for survivability .I would suggest to drop Discipline of Strength for Toughness, and the 3 points i mentioned before into Constitution focus or Steely defense better
Edit:
In general, i would suggest something like this (granted you specced and itemized yourself in a more tanky way)
http://nwcalc.com/gwf?b=cn4:2hwcg:5m9s,1ui9u0i:b0000:60000:bu0zv&h=0
or
http://nwcalc.com/gwf?b=cn4:2hwcg:5m9s,1uil30i:b0000:60000:bu0zv&h=0
(Powerfull Challenge wont help, since Darting's Shout and IBS marks erase when the target hits you, ands thats the case in tanking, so you can say its mostly a dps option for destroyer extra points)
Sounds good.
I'm very happy with the changes. It's not just PvP buffs; it's buffs all around. Leveling will suck a lot less, that's for sure. Plus there will be more viable builds at end-game. Sentinels will be able to effectively off-tank now, instead of the pseudo-tanking its been doing. With 20man content on the horizon, the GWF off-tank will have its uses for sure.
We've all been crying for buffs, and now we're getting them. Let's not look a gift horse in the mouth. They addressed the areas that needed them the most without over-committing to radical changes that would overhaul the way the class plays. Let's see where the class stands after these changes are implemented compared to the other classes before we start crying that this patch isn't any good.
Just started patching. If its 20% buff then its more than enough on a first thought. I still believe this is more in benefit of Instigator to be honest (shorter cd on Roar and NsF=better utility and WS buff is on multiple targets while SS on 1). Were your skills reset or a free respec token?
Edit: I wonder if the steedfast determination fix will make it viable enough to use as an Instigator over Weapon Master or Steel Blitz/Destroyer (the first i guess). Lots of testings to do ,better the respec button is unlocked for all the testing period
Edit2: No respec token or reset, i guess you still have to pay normal zen lol.Also steedfast determination hardly seems any different
Before:
Sure Strike: 475-557
Wicked Strike: 575-673
Not So Fast: 887-1039
After:
Sure Strike: 598-700
Wicked Strike: 661-774
Not So Fast: 1331-1558
Also it allows you to change your character from the main menu after logging into a character.
EDIT:
Change character is just change character, no a respec =(
EDIT :False, something was bugged with my client, got crushed after a while.
i was going to say that exactly. +1
Hedas 60 GWF.
Hrod 60 GF.
Alain Loreweaver 60 CW.
Dragon.
2 CW is just a safety net just like 2 DC and not necessary. I can nearly permanently shut down adds on my CW alone.
Numbers on tooltip are affected by your stats dynamicaly.
For example i have 678- 973 on wicked strike