Race changes and stat respecs should be approached seperately, but i think both should be added.
With that said, a few comments on some of the points opposing race changes:
It breaks immersion of my roleplay
How? You likely have never met, or even stopped to notice the people around you to great enough detail that you would know if 'doug was a human yesterday but he's a halfelf today'. Given that character names are not unique, your character would likely just treat them as a new person being met for the first time. Your meta knowledge (which I contest that you wouldn't even have 99% of the time) should remain separate from your character knowledge (if you are roleplaying correctly).
There are race specific quests
So? There is no faction reputation associated with them, and experience gain is moot considering the multiple avenues of optional sources of experience. Once leaving the zone, as far as character development is concerned, as long as you have reached level 'x' how you achiebed that level is meaningless.
Some decisions should have meaning and be unchangable
The decision is no less meaningful for you if you choose not to pay the $10 to change your race. Nobody is forcing this on you. I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of the playerbase would change their race anyway, this is just an option for pwe to make a buck and make some people happy.
What about racial stats
They change too, for better or worse. This is a cosmetically desired change. If the player is unhappy with their stay makeup post change make them buy a stat retrain token.
I don't understand the desire to limit players in cosmetic or other 'gameplay moot' issues.
I'm aware that cryptic has stated that they've been trying to stay away from race changes because of role playing and lore reasons, which i understand completely. Theres only a major problem to that, and that is how ridiculously important it is to choose the correct stats at the start.
When I bought the foundry pack (60 dollar) all I knew about the game was the different classes and that it had gotten good reviews out of closed beta. I needed a new MMO and didn't hesitate buying the pack. When I created my character I carefully read the passives / racials and was happy with my choice, however when I got to the stats rolls I just rolled until my primary stats was capped and moved on. I also tried reading up on what the actual stats did, but there is nowhere ingame that's explained until the character is already made (and I was really eager to start playing anyway...!)
Now, of course wisdom is completely garbage for Clerics compared to literally all the other abilities and I've only realized this after clearing all the dungeons in the game and gotten almost fully geared. It would really suck to level up a new Cleric just because I'm a sucker for min-maxing and I cannot stand seeing my stats not being optimal because of a choice I did when I knew nothing about the game.
Pros and cons with having race change:
Pros:
Incredible amounts of money can be made
Everyone unhappy with their race / initial stats will be extremely happy
You don't need to level up a new character because of a mistake you made when you were a rookie
Cons:
Players who strongly care about lore / role playing would not like this.
I really do understand that some people really care about their Lore, but in my honest opinion not having the option to race change / change the initial chosen abilities is NOT a good move for an MMORPG, especially not when it has such a big impact on your character. I would understand it if it was a single player RPG, but it isnt.
I understand your point of view perfectly. But, I would quit as soon as I can see a fat *** half-orc rogue being as good as a halfling or a tiny halfling fighter as good as a dwarf, human or half-orc.
If you kill the RP and lore, the d&d component of this game will be even scarcer.:p
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"The harder the game, the better."
Actions have consequences. And unless you did something like rolled a fighter with a 10 strength, you're not losing a whole lot.
So no, race changes are not needed, IMO. If gaining that extra 1%of a stat is THAT important to a player,they should reroll. Consider it a reincarnation spell. ;-)
Actions have consequences. And unless you did something like rolled a fighter with a 10 strength, you're not losing a whole lot.
So no, race changes are not needed, IMO. If gaining that extra 1%of a stat is THAT important to a player,they should reroll. Consider it a reincarnation spell. ;-)
I'm not an advocate for race changing for stats. I'm an advocate for race changes because somebody would rather play as another race cosmetically. It's for the same reason people want the ability to change their hairstyle or facial features. So when people say 'decisions have to meaningful' I wonder why things like paragon path aren't the target of this 'meaningful decision desire' instead of whether or not I'd rather my character look like an elf instead of half elf since that would, you know, actually be meaningful.
I understand your point of view perfectly. But, I would quit as soon as I can see a fat *** half-orc rogue being as good as a halfling or a tiny halfling fighter as good as a dwarf, human or half-orc.
If you kill the RP and lore, the d&d component of this game will be even scarcer.:p
It's funny you say that, cause I had a goliath rogue who always made his sneak/hide checks in one of my pnp games (the same game we had a gnome fighter, a half-orc wizard, a halfling barbarian, and a cookie cutter human cleric). Our group did great. The beauty of pnp is as long as you know what you're doing your race doesn't matter. Don't limit D&D to your preconceived limitations of what should and shouldn't be.
I wouldn't call it D&D limitations, but rather the whole mmo experience. Given the relationship of the adjustments that get made in every mmo; what at one time was the persona of a player can quickly change what one is. Why should they go from an immersive value of enjoyment to one with negative undertones?
In WoW, for me it just had to be the goblin cleric. ^_^
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shutemd0wnMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 13Arc User
Well, since everything youve fought for, found or purchased, by AD or Zen, and used to be Bound, including gear, vanility stuff, companions, gets left unused... your "solution" just.. isn't one. Not a good one, in any way.
I don't get why a few are so dead set against a simple Race Change feature, something other MMOs have done very well, and something thats supported in DnD rules, especially when you take into account that they had <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> info on starting stats etc and are holding off drow race launch for atleast 2 months since OB Launch.... I seriously dont get it.
^This.
Regardless if there is no lore relating to changing race, this is an MMO.
I've already invested countless hours/irl money and AD into gearing my cleric and would really like the option to race change/reroll my stats.
The fact that I initially placed more points into Wisdom because the tool tip explained its a clerics 'main stat', then to find out later that +STR would benefit my spec alot more is another reason.
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therealcurs1nMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Regardless if there is no lore relating to changing race, this is an MMO.
I've already invested countless hours/irl money and AD into gearing my cleric and would really like the option to race change/reroll my stats.
The fact that I initially placed more points into Wisdom because the tool tip explained its a clerics 'main stat', then to find out later that +STR would benefit my spec alot more is another reason.
@Ambi, I will agree with you as soon as every subsequent Devoted Cleric I made gets 100 bucks in ZEN. Thats the amount of money I spent on my first DC.
You can toss your D&D-Analogies the whole day, it doesnt change the fact that the game is too expensive to play more than one char effectively. therefore racechange is the only way to go.
Lol now that is just foolish. I'm sorry to point this out but I have 4 characters currently and I haven't spent a single penny.
If you have the disposable income that's great but $100 per character is in no way normal for the average player. On top of that as for the original post, I may be wrong but I'm thinking the racials are more useful than the stat bonuses. If you don't like your character delete him/her and start over. It is not hard at all to level and, unless you are antisocial, you should be able to find friends to help get your gear back. I personally don't care if you guys spend $50 to change your race, it won't affect me at all, but to say a free game that is easy to level in is too expensive to play? Foolish...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
When life turns it's back on you, sneak attack it for extra damage!
I'm not an advocate for race changing for stats. I'm an advocate for race changes because somebody would rather play as another race cosmetically. It's for the same reason people want the ability to change their hairstyle or facial features. So when people say 'decisions have to meaningful' I wonder why things like paragon path aren't the target of this 'meaningful decision desire' instead of whether or not I'd rather my character look like an elf instead of half elf since that would, you know, actually be meaningful.
So if you really want a change of pace and want to play as a different race, what is stopping you from making an alt? You want to play as a different race, play it - start to finish (which, given the class / race quests in the game, is part of it).
So, for you, it might just be a cosmetic choice. For theory crafters, it will be about squeezing 0.1% more dps out of a "most optimal build". For yet another, a way to try and hide themselves (along with a rename token).
Point is, we made choices. Stick with it, even if it isn't the prettiest or most optimal.
Some decisions should have meaning and be unchangable
The decision is no less meaningful for you if you choose not to pay the $10 to change your race. Nobody is forcing this on you. I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of the playerbase would change their race anyway, this is just an option for pwe to make a buck and make some people happy.
You would have a point if we were playing a single player game, but we are not, we are playing an MMO. This means that all of the choices made by all players has a direct impact on the player base as a whole. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, anytime a player is given the option to totally re-do sweeping "corrections" to perceived mistakes that were presented to them as "supposed" critical thinking decisions in their 1-60 leveling journey, and the option is given to allow for those decisions to be re-done by the mere swipe of a credit card, it cheapens the game experience for all of the players that took their critical decisions as serious and final in their leveling journey.
For many of us, making critical decisions through our leveling journey that impact our characters development, and having to deal with the consequences as a result, is what the journey in an MMO is all about. Otherwise, what is the purpose of giving us the option of making decisions as we level when once we get to level cap we can just wipe them away with the swipe of a credit card and re-do them to perfection in a matter of minutes? Decisions "should" have consequences, otherwise ... what is the point?
Now, I am not naive. I am fully aware there are players out there that love this type of cheapening of a game. These are the same type of players who tap into "god modes" and "cheats" in games that offer those shortcuts. So I fully understand that it is appealing to some. Therefore, this post isn't meant to try to convince those players, because I am fully cognizant of that improbability. It is merely intended as a response as to why some of us do not find it desirable.
Regarding the argument that PWE would be able to "make a buck" by offering this option ... of the below listed two options, which one do you think PWE would chose?
1. Selling extra character slots, mounts, AND all the money a player will spend while leveling that character from level 1 to level 60, or ...
2. One $10 Race Change Token to be applied to a ready-made level 60 character in which a player has already spent all the money that was going to be spent for everything needed?
So? There is no faction reputation associated with them, and experience gain is moot considering the multiple avenues of optional sources of experience. Once leaving the zone, as far as character development is concerned, as long as you have reached level 'x' how you achiebed that level is meaningless.
You miss the biggest reason why this is an actual problem. Your character includes data on which quests you've completed. Changing races means that different class quests will be open to you. Means that your character has completed quests that aren't available anymore. Your character might get corrupted. Or worse.
Checking all the possible conflicts is a lot of work. And if you character changes races again? More trouble. And changes back to a prior race? Still more trouble.
That's on top of the work needed to implement race-change.
And for how much money? That's the real question. My guess is, not that much.
I think that Cryptic would find a lot more income from, say, implementing a shared account bank.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
So if you really want a change of pace and want to play as a different race, what is stopping you from making an alt? You want to play as a different race, play it - start to finish (which, given the class / race quests in the game, is part of it).
So, for you, it might just be a cosmetic choice. For theory crafters, it will be about squeezing 0.1% more dps out of a "most optimal build". For yet another, a way to try and hide themselves (along with a rename token).
Point is, we made choices. Stick with it, even if it isn't the prettiest or most optimal.
Why is it not the same for our feats, skills, (in the future) paragon path (you know, decisions that would legitimately be meaningful). This is a cosmetic change, not a game breaking effect that will reduce your chances at finding a group. It's odd to me that swapping skills and feats infinitely flies with people, but me changing my character from a human to halfelf throws the 'NOPE, YOU MADE A DECISION, ITS DONE' flag.
You would have a point if we were playing a single player game, but we are not, we are playing an MMO. This means that all of the choices made by all players has a direct impact on the player base as a whole. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, anytime a player is given the option to totally re-do sweeping "corrections" to perceived mistakes that were presented to them as "supposed" critical thinking decisions in their 1-60 leveling journey, and the option is given to allow for those decisions to be re-done by the mere swipe of a credit card, it cheapens the game experience for all of the players that took their critical decisions as serious and final in their leveling journey.
For many of us, making critical decisions through our leveling journey that impact our characters development, and having to deal with the consequences as a result, is what the journey in an MMO is all about. Otherwise, what is the purpose of giving us the option of making decisions as we level when once we get to level cap we can just wipe them away with the swipe of a credit card and re-do them to perfection in a matter of minutes? Decisions "should" have consequences, otherwise ... what is the point?
Now, I am not naive. I am fully aware there are players out there that love this type of cheapening of a game. These are the same type of players who tap into "god modes" and "cheats" in games that offer those shortcuts. So I fully understand that it is appealing to some. Therefore, this post isn't meant to try to convince those players, because I am fully cognizant of that improbability. It is merely intended as a response as to why some of us do not find it desirable.
Regarding the argument that PWE would be able to "make a buck" by offering this option ... of the below listed two options, which one do you think PWE would chose?
1. Selling extra character slots, mounts, AND all the money a player will spend while leveling that character from level 1 to level 60, or ...
2. One $10 Race Change Token to be applied to a ready-made level 60 character in which a player has already spent all the money that was going to be spent for everything needed?
Exactly.
I kind of stopped reading and went to skimming when you likened the changing of a character's cosmetic appearance to players who enable 'god mode' and other cheats. The comparison is ridiculous.
I ask again why a cosmetic decision like race is considered a 'meaningful decision', but the placing of feats, skills, and paragon is allowed to be redone an infinite amount of times. The shape of my characters head or the size of his model is somehow going to change/lessen the experience for you? Really? What about changing the size of his nose in the face adjuster. I didn't realize my nose was a very meaningful decision and re-doing it cheapens your game experience.
U kno most modern societys accept a sex change now, and i bet nobody here would be pointing fingers. Its a game pls! how would it lower your enjoyment if ppl would change race!
You miss the biggest reason why this is an actual problem. Your character includes data on which quests you've completed. Changing races means that different class quests will be open to you. Means that your character has completed quests that aren't available anymore. Your character might get corrupted. Or worse.
Checking all the possible conflicts is a lot of work. And if you character changes races again? More trouble. And changes back to a prior race? Still more trouble.
That's on top of the work needed to implement race-change.
And for how much money? That's the real question. My guess is, not that much.
I think that Cryptic would find a lot more income from, say, implementing a shared account bank.
So you're saying that changing racial flags on quests would somehow corrupt the character (the character data I'm assuming)? You realize that its incredibly likely its a simple flag on the quest data that allows it to show up when a race is flagged. Your character data simply carries that flag. Quest completion is likely also just a simple 'completed, not completed' flag that has no bearing on your character data at all post completion. I don't understand how a worry that cryptic's character db tables would somehow meltdown. We're not crossing the streams here. We're not dividing by 0. We're not triggering a nullpointerexception. It's race. An afterthought as far as the data is concerned beyond your character model and setting your beginning ability scores.
I kind of stopped reading and went to skimming when you likened the changing of a character's cosmetic appearance to players who enable 'god mode' and other cheats. The comparison is ridiculous.
I ask again why a cosmetic decision like race is considered a 'meaningful decision', but the placing of feats, skills, and paragon is allowed to be redone an infinite amount of times. The shape of my characters head or the size of his model is somehow going to change/lessen the experience for you? Really? What about changing the size of his nose in the face adjuster. I didn't realize my nose was a very meaningful decision and re-doing it cheapens your game experience.
No, you stopped reading because the analogy did not agree with your opinion. The analogy is not meant to be an exact equivalent. It is simply meant as an example of the desire for a certain percentage of the player base to want to circumvent the rules of a game and make it easier by employing the use of "god modes" and "cheats."
Had you taken the time to read, and understand, the rest of my post instead of skimming through it because it did not support your point of view, you would have better understood the analogy. And that is that "god modes" and "cheats" afford players cheats that empower them thereby making the game easier to play. A "Race Change" token is similar because it would make the game easier for players because instead of taking the time to make correct critical decisions during the process of creating and developing their character, and understanding that decisions have consequences, they afford a player an easy way out of the mistakes made during their leveling process by buying a "cheat" (ie., Race Change Token) and wiping their mistakes away.
Having said that, I am nevertheless convinced that you will find a reason to stop reading and begin skimming through my post, once you again realize that it does not support your point of view.
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cichardMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I don't really see a point in a race changer. If people knew how to read instead of "WHAT LOOKS THE COOLEST" when it came to races then you can figure out what classes are best suited for them. Believe you and me, I would have loved to do a Half-Elf Wizard but the stats just wouldn't allow it. So I just stuck with Human.
That is usually how it goes anyway, either pick a class or a race and then find the class/race that compliments the other and go from there.
Tiefling is a better race for wizard anyways over human... +2 cha +2in... 8% crit at lvl 1!!!!!
No, you stopped reading because the analogy did not agree with your opinion. The analogy is not meant to be an exact equivalent. It is simply meant as an example of the desire for a certain percentage of the player base to want to circumvent the rules of a game and make it easier by employing the use of "god modes" and "cheats."
Had you taken the time to read, and understand, the rest of my post instead of skimming through it because it did not support your point of view, you would have better understood the analogy. And that is that "god modes" and "cheats" afford players cheats that empower them thereby making the game easier to play. A "Race Change" token is similar because it would make the game easier for players because instead of taking the time to make correct critical decisions during the process of creating and developing their character, and understanding that decisions have consequences, they afford a player an easy way out of the mistakes made during their leveling process buying a "cheat" (ie., Race Change Token) and wiping their mistakes away.
And yet, MMOs (especially NW) are full of opportunities to change mistakes in regard to much more pressing features. From de-slotting enchantments, to retraining my feats and skills. I ask why changing my character from a human to half-elf is 'cheating' but adjusting the very stats and skills of my character after I've already devoted the point isn't (or at the very least, is allowed).
At least the character change has no bearing on the role of my character, no bearing on skills, no bearing on how effective I am (the ability score changes are truly negligible). This 'mistake' being corrected (if it can be called that, as opposed to a cosmetic whim) will not make a character superior or even inferior to their former selves by any noticeable standards, or the people around them. As far as the rest of the community is concerned, it never happened.
And no, I stopped reading because it truly is a poor analogy. To liken a cosmetic change to a character model already being used by players to complete invulnerability or free reign within a game is silly. As silly as if I were attempting to compare a persons desire for a better job with a desire for world domination.
And no, I stopped reading because it truly is a poor analogy. To liken a cosmetic change to a character model already being used by players to complete invulnerability or free reign within a game is silly. As silly as if I were attempting to compare a persons desire for a better job with a desire for world domination.
It is not just a "cosmetic" change. The fact that you claim it is, discredits your entire argument.
It is not just a "cosmetic" change. The fact that you claim it is, discredits your entire argument.
Is it not? Will the ability score differences make my character unable to run content? Will it make me god of all Guardian Fighters? I didn't realize that the race of another person's control wizard would empower me to unlimited heights if I were to suddenly have that power.
Is it not? Will the ability score differences make my character unable to run content? Will it make me god of all Guardian Fighters? I didn't realize that the race of another person's control wizard would empower me to unlimited heights if I were to suddenly have that power.
Nop it is not. Please read through this thread to get a better understanding. Aside from abilities that are specific to each race, there are many decisions made through the leveling journey that are race specific.
Nop it is not. Please read through this thread to get a better understanding. Aside from abilities that are specific to each race, there are many decisions made through the leveling journey that are race specific.
Oh, you mean the quest in tower district for 2k xp I got on my dwarf to go beat up some extra orcs. You're right. That is a significant difference in the paths of our two characters.
Race is meaningless beyond looks. It truly is. The Ability Score differences are negligible. The racial quests are nothing more than a few silver + 10 or so mobs worth of xp differences. There are no racial or faction reputations. There isn't even alignment.
But you're right. Maybe I'm not understanding the power of one race above the others. Tell me how the dwarf cleric is a vastly different beast than the human cleric, and how swapping from one to the other would unravel the material plane that Neverwinter resides in.
bbsooner, I think I've made my point. I really do not want to go back and forth re-hashing minute intricacies. The bottom line is that there are currently valid reasons why this option is not offered. I think that this request would carry much more weight if all we were allowed to have was one character slot. But that is not the case. You are given two free character slots with the option to buy as many as you can afford. If you want to play another race, you are given the option to do so by accessing another character slot.
With those character slots, we are expected to make critical decisions. Upon creation and as we level through to level 60. Be a grown up and make conscientious decision when they are offered to you. If you are unsure, ask a friend. If you have no friends, access the internet. Google is your friend. Along through the level process, make sure you review and re-review, as well as plan ahead, for decision you will need to make. If you are diligent in this endeavor, you should be able to realize when you have made a mistake in your first dozen or so levels. If you are the type that is unable to foresee mistakes and did not realize that you made a mistake in developing your character until you arrived at level cap, and then expect to be bailed out of your mistake through the swipe of a credit card, then you are absolving accountability and expecting entitlements.
Play the game. Accept the challenge. Be accountable. Achieve.
I agree that we've reached an impasse in regards to our disagreement. It's not about making critical decisions (race more critical of a decision that feats?) or even trying to correct some horrendous mistake. It's not about making changes that will effect how my character performs (feat/skill retrains currently in game). It is about finding that I prefer the look of the final set of heavy GWF armor on a half-orc than on my human. Oh, but I suppose I should have googled what the armor looked like prior to making a decision on par with my post-college career selection. On top of which I contest that these 'valid reasons' for the absence of a race-change feature to be negligible at best considering the effect race has on the game, but neither will be convinced otherwise.
I hope you practice what you preach and have kept your characters as they were brought up, with no feat retrains, no skill retrains (even after character balancing). No paragon retrain when we get more. No facial changes. No removing of enchantments. These are all decisions to be made, and living with them is the moral of the story as preached by the majority of posts I've read through in this thread that oppose the race change option. Of course I'd never know for sure (similar to nobody ever knowing if somebody else got a race change), but only you would truly know if you are living by what you spout.
I hope you practice what you preach and have kept your characters as they were brought up, with no feat retrains, no skill retrains (even after character balancing). No paragon retrain when we get more. No facial changes. No removing of enchantments. These are all decisions to be made, and living with them is the moral of the story as preached by the majority of posts I've read through in this thread that oppose the race change option. Of course I'd never know for sure (similar to nobody ever knowing if somebody else got a race change), but only you would truly know if you are living by what you spout.
Of course I do. Why else would i be so vehemently debating the issue. Personally, the fun for me in an MMO is in making decisions beginning with character creation, and sticking with my decisions for better or worse, just as if I was living through those decisions. IMHO, that is the real fun and challenge of an MMO. I am my character. After character creation, this is who I am. After that point, that is my race. I was born into this race and I am proud of my race. If, by chance, I get ideas of changing my race, then I start all over from character creation.
Once I begin my journey, I make decisions and I accept the consequences for choices made, for better or for worse. I have never used and XP scroll. I have always opted to leave a town when logging off rather than acquiring rest XP. I refrain from killing extra mobs if I anticipate that it will cause me to out level content. I don't skip content or take short cuts. No skills/feat retrains. In short, for me, the joy is in the journey, not at arriving at the destination. It is not a race. There is no rush, no stress, no drama. It is a challenge. Pure and simple fun.
Tiefling is a better race for wizard anyways over human... +2 cha +2in... 8% crit at lvl 1!!!!!
Not currently. After the next patch when (if, but I'm hopeful) Tempest Magic gets fixed, it will be. Right now it does not work together with the Tiefling's racial, though, so Human is better, for the time being.
Of course I do. Why else would i be so vehemently debating the issue. Personally, the fun for me in an MMO is in making decisions beginning with character creation, and sticking with my decisions for better or worse, just as if I was living through those decisions. IMHO, that is the real fun and challenge of an MMO. I am my character. After character creation, this is who I am. After that point, that is my race. I was born into this race and I am proud of my race. If, by chance, I get ideas of changing my race, then I start all over from character creation.
Once I begin my journey, I make decisions and I accept the consequences for choices made, for better or for worse. I have never used and XP scroll. I have always opted to leave a town when logging off rather than acquiring rest XP. I refrain from killing extra mobs if I anticipate that it will cause me to out level content. I don't skip content and take no short cuts. In short, for me, the joy is in the journey, not at arriving at the destination. It is not a race. There is no rush, no stress, no drama. It is a challenge. Pure and fun.
While we clearly have different philosophies on where we derive our enjoyment from MMOs, it's moot to compare the two. While I can appreciate your philosophy of character finality I just wish you didn't impose it on my philosophy of player choice. Especially since you would be oblivious to any choices made by players.
Comments
With that said, a few comments on some of the points opposing race changes:
It breaks immersion of my roleplay
How? You likely have never met, or even stopped to notice the people around you to great enough detail that you would know if 'doug was a human yesterday but he's a halfelf today'. Given that character names are not unique, your character would likely just treat them as a new person being met for the first time. Your meta knowledge (which I contest that you wouldn't even have 99% of the time) should remain separate from your character knowledge (if you are roleplaying correctly).
There are race specific quests
So? There is no faction reputation associated with them, and experience gain is moot considering the multiple avenues of optional sources of experience. Once leaving the zone, as far as character development is concerned, as long as you have reached level 'x' how you achiebed that level is meaningless.
Some decisions should have meaning and be unchangable
The decision is no less meaningful for you if you choose not to pay the $10 to change your race. Nobody is forcing this on you. I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of the playerbase would change their race anyway, this is just an option for pwe to make a buck and make some people happy.
What about racial stats
They change too, for better or worse. This is a cosmetically desired change. If the player is unhappy with their stay makeup post change make them buy a stat retrain token.
I don't understand the desire to limit players in cosmetic or other 'gameplay moot' issues.
But i think the respec token should allow you to reroll your starting stats.
I understand your point of view perfectly. But, I would quit as soon as I can see a fat *** half-orc rogue being as good as a halfling or a tiny halfling fighter as good as a dwarf, human or half-orc.
If you kill the RP and lore, the d&d component of this game will be even scarcer.:p
"The harder the game, the better."
So no, race changes are not needed, IMO. If gaining that extra 1%of a stat is THAT important to a player,they should reroll. Consider it a reincarnation spell. ;-)
I'm not an advocate for race changing for stats. I'm an advocate for race changes because somebody would rather play as another race cosmetically. It's for the same reason people want the ability to change their hairstyle or facial features. So when people say 'decisions have to meaningful' I wonder why things like paragon path aren't the target of this 'meaningful decision desire' instead of whether or not I'd rather my character look like an elf instead of half elf since that would, you know, actually be meaningful.
It's funny you say that, cause I had a goliath rogue who always made his sneak/hide checks in one of my pnp games (the same game we had a gnome fighter, a half-orc wizard, a halfling barbarian, and a cookie cutter human cleric). Our group did great. The beauty of pnp is as long as you know what you're doing your race doesn't matter. Don't limit D&D to your preconceived limitations of what should and shouldn't be.
In WoW, for me it just had to be the goblin cleric. ^_^
^This.
Regardless if there is no lore relating to changing race, this is an MMO.
I've already invested countless hours/irl money and AD into gearing my cleric and would really like the option to race change/reroll my stats.
The fact that I initially placed more points into Wisdom because the tool tip explained its a clerics 'main stat', then to find out later that +STR would benefit my spec alot more is another reason.
Basically this..
Lol now that is just foolish. I'm sorry to point this out but I have 4 characters currently and I haven't spent a single penny.
If you have the disposable income that's great but $100 per character is in no way normal for the average player. On top of that as for the original post, I may be wrong but I'm thinking the racials are more useful than the stat bonuses. If you don't like your character delete him/her and start over. It is not hard at all to level and, unless you are antisocial, you should be able to find friends to help get your gear back. I personally don't care if you guys spend $50 to change your race, it won't affect me at all, but to say a free game that is easy to level in is too expensive to play? Foolish...
So if you really want a change of pace and want to play as a different race, what is stopping you from making an alt? You want to play as a different race, play it - start to finish (which, given the class / race quests in the game, is part of it).
So, for you, it might just be a cosmetic choice. For theory crafters, it will be about squeezing 0.1% more dps out of a "most optimal build". For yet another, a way to try and hide themselves (along with a rename token).
Point is, we made choices. Stick with it, even if it isn't the prettiest or most optimal.
You would have a point if we were playing a single player game, but we are not, we are playing an MMO. This means that all of the choices made by all players has a direct impact on the player base as a whole. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, anytime a player is given the option to totally re-do sweeping "corrections" to perceived mistakes that were presented to them as "supposed" critical thinking decisions in their 1-60 leveling journey, and the option is given to allow for those decisions to be re-done by the mere swipe of a credit card, it cheapens the game experience for all of the players that took their critical decisions as serious and final in their leveling journey.
For many of us, making critical decisions through our leveling journey that impact our characters development, and having to deal with the consequences as a result, is what the journey in an MMO is all about. Otherwise, what is the purpose of giving us the option of making decisions as we level when once we get to level cap we can just wipe them away with the swipe of a credit card and re-do them to perfection in a matter of minutes? Decisions "should" have consequences, otherwise ... what is the point?
Now, I am not naive. I am fully aware there are players out there that love this type of cheapening of a game. These are the same type of players who tap into "god modes" and "cheats" in games that offer those shortcuts. So I fully understand that it is appealing to some. Therefore, this post isn't meant to try to convince those players, because I am fully cognizant of that improbability. It is merely intended as a response as to why some of us do not find it desirable.
Regarding the argument that PWE would be able to "make a buck" by offering this option ... of the below listed two options, which one do you think PWE would chose?
1. Selling extra character slots, mounts, AND all the money a player will spend while leveling that character from level 1 to level 60, or ...
2. One $10 Race Change Token to be applied to a ready-made level 60 character in which a player has already spent all the money that was going to be spent for everything needed?
Exactly.
You miss the biggest reason why this is an actual problem. Your character includes data on which quests you've completed. Changing races means that different class quests will be open to you. Means that your character has completed quests that aren't available anymore. Your character might get corrupted. Or worse.
Checking all the possible conflicts is a lot of work. And if you character changes races again? More trouble. And changes back to a prior race? Still more trouble.
That's on top of the work needed to implement race-change.
And for how much money? That's the real question. My guess is, not that much.
I think that Cryptic would find a lot more income from, say, implementing a shared account bank.
Why is it not the same for our feats, skills, (in the future) paragon path (you know, decisions that would legitimately be meaningful). This is a cosmetic change, not a game breaking effect that will reduce your chances at finding a group. It's odd to me that swapping skills and feats infinitely flies with people, but me changing my character from a human to halfelf throws the 'NOPE, YOU MADE A DECISION, ITS DONE' flag.
I kind of stopped reading and went to skimming when you likened the changing of a character's cosmetic appearance to players who enable 'god mode' and other cheats. The comparison is ridiculous.
I ask again why a cosmetic decision like race is considered a 'meaningful decision', but the placing of feats, skills, and paragon is allowed to be redone an infinite amount of times. The shape of my characters head or the size of his model is somehow going to change/lessen the experience for you? Really? What about changing the size of his nose in the face adjuster. I didn't realize my nose was a very meaningful decision and re-doing it cheapens your game experience.
So you're saying that changing racial flags on quests would somehow corrupt the character (the character data I'm assuming)? You realize that its incredibly likely its a simple flag on the quest data that allows it to show up when a race is flagged. Your character data simply carries that flag. Quest completion is likely also just a simple 'completed, not completed' flag that has no bearing on your character data at all post completion. I don't understand how a worry that cryptic's character db tables would somehow meltdown. We're not crossing the streams here. We're not dividing by 0. We're not triggering a nullpointerexception. It's race. An afterthought as far as the data is concerned beyond your character model and setting your beginning ability scores.
No, you stopped reading because the analogy did not agree with your opinion. The analogy is not meant to be an exact equivalent. It is simply meant as an example of the desire for a certain percentage of the player base to want to circumvent the rules of a game and make it easier by employing the use of "god modes" and "cheats."
Had you taken the time to read, and understand, the rest of my post instead of skimming through it because it did not support your point of view, you would have better understood the analogy. And that is that "god modes" and "cheats" afford players cheats that empower them thereby making the game easier to play. A "Race Change" token is similar because it would make the game easier for players because instead of taking the time to make correct critical decisions during the process of creating and developing their character, and understanding that decisions have consequences, they afford a player an easy way out of the mistakes made during their leveling process by buying a "cheat" (ie., Race Change Token) and wiping their mistakes away.
Having said that, I am nevertheless convinced that you will find a reason to stop reading and begin skimming through my post, once you again realize that it does not support your point of view.
And yet, MMOs (especially NW) are full of opportunities to change mistakes in regard to much more pressing features. From de-slotting enchantments, to retraining my feats and skills. I ask why changing my character from a human to half-elf is 'cheating' but adjusting the very stats and skills of my character after I've already devoted the point isn't (or at the very least, is allowed).
At least the character change has no bearing on the role of my character, no bearing on skills, no bearing on how effective I am (the ability score changes are truly negligible). This 'mistake' being corrected (if it can be called that, as opposed to a cosmetic whim) will not make a character superior or even inferior to their former selves by any noticeable standards, or the people around them. As far as the rest of the community is concerned, it never happened.
And no, I stopped reading because it truly is a poor analogy. To liken a cosmetic change to a character model already being used by players to complete invulnerability or free reign within a game is silly. As silly as if I were attempting to compare a persons desire for a better job with a desire for world domination.
It is not just a "cosmetic" change. The fact that you claim it is, discredits your entire argument.
Is it not? Will the ability score differences make my character unable to run content? Will it make me god of all Guardian Fighters? I didn't realize that the race of another person's control wizard would empower me to unlimited heights if I were to suddenly have that power.
Nop it is not. Please read through this thread to get a better understanding. Aside from abilities that are specific to each race, there are many decisions made through the leveling journey that are race specific.
Oh, you mean the quest in tower district for 2k xp I got on my dwarf to go beat up some extra orcs. You're right. That is a significant difference in the paths of our two characters.
Race is meaningless beyond looks. It truly is. The Ability Score differences are negligible. The racial quests are nothing more than a few silver + 10 or so mobs worth of xp differences. There are no racial or faction reputations. There isn't even alignment.
But you're right. Maybe I'm not understanding the power of one race above the others. Tell me how the dwarf cleric is a vastly different beast than the human cleric, and how swapping from one to the other would unravel the material plane that Neverwinter resides in.
With those character slots, we are expected to make critical decisions. Upon creation and as we level through to level 60. Be a grown up and make conscientious decision when they are offered to you. If you are unsure, ask a friend. If you have no friends, access the internet. Google is your friend. Along through the level process, make sure you review and re-review, as well as plan ahead, for decision you will need to make. If you are diligent in this endeavor, you should be able to realize when you have made a mistake in your first dozen or so levels. If you are the type that is unable to foresee mistakes and did not realize that you made a mistake in developing your character until you arrived at level cap, and then expect to be bailed out of your mistake through the swipe of a credit card, then you are absolving accountability and expecting entitlements.
Play the game. Accept the challenge. Be accountable. Achieve.
I hope you practice what you preach and have kept your characters as they were brought up, with no feat retrains, no skill retrains (even after character balancing). No paragon retrain when we get more. No facial changes. No removing of enchantments. These are all decisions to be made, and living with them is the moral of the story as preached by the majority of posts I've read through in this thread that oppose the race change option. Of course I'd never know for sure (similar to nobody ever knowing if somebody else got a race change), but only you would truly know if you are living by what you spout.
Of course I do. Why else would i be so vehemently debating the issue. Personally, the fun for me in an MMO is in making decisions beginning with character creation, and sticking with my decisions for better or worse, just as if I was living through those decisions. IMHO, that is the real fun and challenge of an MMO. I am my character. After character creation, this is who I am. After that point, that is my race. I was born into this race and I am proud of my race. If, by chance, I get ideas of changing my race, then I start all over from character creation.
Once I begin my journey, I make decisions and I accept the consequences for choices made, for better or for worse. I have never used and XP scroll. I have always opted to leave a town when logging off rather than acquiring rest XP. I refrain from killing extra mobs if I anticipate that it will cause me to out level content. I don't skip content or take short cuts. No skills/feat retrains. In short, for me, the joy is in the journey, not at arriving at the destination. It is not a race. There is no rush, no stress, no drama. It is a challenge. Pure and simple fun.
Not currently. After the next patch when (if, but I'm hopeful) Tempest Magic gets fixed, it will be. Right now it does not work together with the Tiefling's racial, though, so Human is better, for the time being.
While we clearly have different philosophies on where we derive our enjoyment from MMOs, it's moot to compare the two. While I can appreciate your philosophy of character finality I just wish you didn't impose it on my philosophy of player choice. Especially since you would be oblivious to any choices made by players.