If Neverwinter is anything like STO or CO (and I'm sure there will be many similarities considering) then most UI elements will probably be able to be hidden at-will by the individual user, XP progress included.
If Neverwinter is anything like STO or CO (and I'm sure there will be many similarities considering) then most UI elements will probably be able to be hidden at-will by the individual user, XP progress included.
Unless hiding the UI is a daily power.
See what I did there?
Set yourself up for an immediate reaction opportunity flame?
"Well that pretty much how it is in ddo u get the bulk of you Xp on quest completion and when you recall it auto rests you so to speak so again im not sure what you would want to change?
You can't have it calculate XP at end of your gaming day that just wouldn't work in a mmo frankly i don't see the point of it other than gives the devs useless meaning less work."
First, no auto rest, but actually having to pay for a room, meal and rest. Then getting the EXP for completion. I know this may seem trivial to some, but IMHO, inns do not have a purpose in MMO's, and neither does food for that matter, and I think that is sad. I know in almost all the PnP games I played, both were huge factors in the game.
Hell, I could see modifications... Stackable
Rest outdoors -5% to end adventure EXP.
Rest in common room of inn, normal end adventure EXP.
Rest in private room with bath, +5% end adventure EXP.
Not eat, -5% to end adventure EXP.
Eat a basic meal/Iron Rations, normal end adventure EXP.
Eat a luxury meal, +5% end adventure EXP.
These could be applied to grinding areas too. No exp until you rest, with the same modifiers as above. Rest outside and no food, -10% experience. Rest outside and a Iron Rations, normal exp.
So easily programmed in too.
"Pretty much like that in ddo you get xp for explorers etc once and the more you level above the area the less Xp you get till eventualy you get none so same as above ?"
Not quite the same... Being able to farm an area, incessantly, and get all your experience for several levels (Albeit later at diminished returns), is the problem. After all, how many plain Kobolds do you have to kill, before you are not learning anything new from them? My numbers suggestion, is an easy tracker to program, and would allow perhaps one level in a grinding area from the creatures there, and then you would have to move on.
The secret of course, would be to have multiple, level tuned, grinding areas. However, the focus should be more on dungeons and quests, and less on running around committing genocide against creatures in a given area.
Seems DDO has done a few steps in the right direction, but they could be improved.
"Well that pretty much how it is in ddo u get the bulk of you Xp on quest completion and when you recall it auto rests you so to speak so again im not sure what you would want to change?
You can't have it calculate XP at end of your gaming day that just wouldn't work in a mmo frankly i don't see the point of it other than gives the devs useless meaning less work."
First, no auto rest, but actually having to pay for a room, meal and rest. Then getting the EXP for completion. I know this may seem trivial to some, but IMHO, inns do not have a purpose in MMO's, and neither does food for that matter, and I think that is sad. I know in almost all the PnP games I played, both were huge factors in the game.
Hell, I could see modifications... Stackable
Rest outdoors -5% to end adventure EXP.
Rest in common room of inn, normal end adventure EXP.
Rest in private room with bath, +5% end adventure EXP.
Not eat, -5% to end adventure EXP.
Eat a basic meal/Iron Rations, normal end adventure EXP.
Eat a luxury meal, +5% end adventure EXP.
These could be applied to grinding areas too. No exp until you rest, with the same modifiers as above. Rest outside and no food, -10% experience. Rest outside and a Iron Rations, normal exp.
So easily programmed in too.
"Pretty much like that in ddo you get xp for explorers etc once and the more you level above the area the less Xp you get till eventualy you get none so same as above ?"
Not quite the same... Being able to farm an area, incessantly, and get all your experience for several levels (Albeit later at diminished returns), is the problem. After all, how many plain Kobolds do you have to kill, before you are not learning anything new from them? My numbers suggestion, is an easy tracker to program, and would allow perhaps one level in a grinding area from the creatures there, and then you would have to move on.
The secret of course, would be to have multiple, level tuned, grinding areas. However, the focus should be more on dungeons and quests, and less on running around committing genocide against creatures in a given area.
Seems DDO has done a few steps in the right direction, but they could be improved.
Hope that explains it better.
Sigh you clearly haven't a clue how ddo works, no one farms explorer areas for xp unless they are missing like 100xp to lvl its just not effective. DDO isn't a korean grind game were you constantly kill random mobs over and over for xp. Its like you take some small fears you have about things you don't want in this game and exaggerate the mechanics out of proportion.
As to the rest of it i really don't see the use of having to "run to an inn" so you can get your xp tell me what is that suppose to achieve other than get us to run around ?
Last thing in ddo you don't rest in the inn but there is a spirit binder that can heal you and "restore" you, for a price ofc.
I don't mean to be harsh on you man but sometimes i think you want a DnD themed sims game rather than an actual DnD MMO game.
I really want to be able to experience this game and all it will have to offer but i don't want to have to micro-manage every little thing.
Currently the game is undergoing a lot of iteration and tweaking, so the design is still pretty malleable. What would be most helpful is hearing from you guys about what would make for a good D&D MMO experience.
Obviously that's a very subjective question, but one of the most difficult things for developers to do when making a new game based on a well established IP is finding the true essence of what makes that IP so appealing. How can we make a video game that captures the best aspects of D&D without just being a carbon copy of it in digital form?
For me, D&D is mostly about the DM/player dynamic... It's like being told a story by a talented storyteller that you're actively taking part in. No video game has been able to quite capture that feeling IMO, but for me that's what draws me to D&D the most.
But how is that best translated into a modern MMO? That's the kind of debate we would like to see in the community
1) I want as much control to craft the story for my players in as easy-to-use a fashion as possible.
2) I want my players to be able to skulk thru dungeons and caverns and cities and hamlets with as much mood (effects, fog, music etc) that I can give them. They should be allowed to take a first person view as easily as 3rd; my players in particular want to feel like THEY ARE THERE not that they are looking down at a miniature or behind an action figure.
3) I want to be able to get a game together reasonably quickly. No player wants to wait 2 months for one game.
4) I want my players to bring their character from one game I made to the next with continuity of stats and inventory.
5) I want, as a DM, to take an active role in my adventures when needed. If I need to BE an NPC and chat with them live and fluidly rather than having everything pre scripted then it should be quick and easy to do so. I also want to be able to ghost and follow / watch their progress when needed too.
6) I need the freedom to name anything I want to. Maybe I want my player to inheri a staff from their now-dead master Wizaldo and name it "Wizaldo's Staff" or something. Whether I'm naming their pet chicken on the farm or the deadly dragon they encounter at max lvl, I need that freedom.
7) I need as much freedom to create my own world as I need to use prefab cities etc. Its the forgotten realms. Maybe I need to just plug in YOUR prefab Shadowdale and spend my time detailing the storyline and npcs happening there. But then again, maybe i want to build my own CandleKeep and make it my idea of this historic locale.
8) cities, villages and plentiful social interiors are just as vital as dungeons. I need shadowdale, candlekeep, etc and plenty of interiors for my players to visit, explore and meet important NPCs in. Just roaming through bricj dungeons wont cut it.
9) I need conversaton control. A window popping open with a wall of text is about as immersive in storyline as hitting my players with a brick. Shot reverse shot, close ups, and subtitled dialogue ---and dialogue choices for my players to make, with a conversation tree that's easy to fill out for me, is a must. this is not a "we'll add it some day down the road" option. D&D is about storytelling and immersive role playing just as much as its about equipping loot and slashing monsters.
10) cut scenes. Choose a location, select camera movement, place actors and give them even simple commands, add music and set when player's will trigger it. Here's an example.
After taking an NPC up on an unrefusable offer of riches for retrieving an ancient relic from the Mountain of Despair, they embark on the long journey. After numerous stops and encounters, they reach the foot of the mountain. Trigger cutscene! The mountain, purplish and backit with orange from the sunset, is in center view. the camera slowly pulls back as dramatic, moody music swells. It reveals our 4 adventurers walking towards the mountain and a faint, evil cackle cant be heard echoing in the distance as the camera fades to black. Cutscene ends and we return to our players at the entrance of the dungeon at the foot of the mountain.
It has to be better than -they walk to the mountain and get a splash screen that says LOADING and POOF theyre in the dungeon.
D&D DMs are artists and storytellers, not just action gamers. Give us the tools and the palettes to paint our stories.
Sigh you clearly haven't a clue how ddo works, no one farms explorer areas for xp unless they are missing like 100xp to lvl its just not effective. DDO isn't a korean grind game were you constantly kill random mobs over and over for xp. Its like you take some small fears you have about things you don't want in this game and exaggerate the mechanics out of proportion.
You are correct, I do not have a clue about SSO... If it is so damn perfect, why do so many complain about it? Why make another game, when you can stay there and play, since you think it so grand.
What I do have experience with are NWN1 PW's, NWN2 PW's, WoW and Ultima Online, as well as tons of non-MMO CRPG's. That said, I do not want what any of those offer, and they all offerred grinding fields of monsters as the main way to level up. BLEAGH.
As to the rest of it i really don't see the use of having to "run to an inn" so you can get your xp tell me what is that suppose to achieve other than get us to run around ?
What does it achieve? How about a gold sink touch of realism, like it was in PnP games. Hell, my DM's usually had us pay room and board for all down periods between dungeons. Of course Barbarians, Druids and Rangers were given exceptions, due to their classes being so closely tied to the outdoors, and their skill sets.
Last thing in ddo you don't rest in the inn but there is a spirit binder that can heal you and "restore" you, for a price ofc..
Again, if DDO is so great, stay there and play it. I would prefer such healing and restorations coming from your God's servants, or the servants of allies of your God. The purpose of an Inn and Food, is to add a sense of believability, RP atmosphere, and yes, a small trickle drain on your treasure supply, to keep the economy of the area going.
Heck, I can see where, due to the population of a world, that an Inn might not have a room available, and you are forced to take lesser accomodations, and thus a penalty to learning from poor sleep and/or food.
Plus, one HUGE RP plus, is the possibility for a villian to POISON the parties food, and hamper their efforts to remove him from his hideout.
Think of the possibilities and the RP immersion such would provide, and not that you deem it to be a minor inconvenience.
I don't mean to be harsh on you man but sometimes i think you want a DnD themed sims game rather than an actual DnD MMO game.
ROFLMAO... D&D Sims. Nice jab. In retort, it seems to me, all you want is another iteration of WoW or DDO. Well, if they are so great, go play them. I want a D&D game that is closer to a PNP experience than a game for Zergers and Uber-Mensches running around like toddlers on a case of Red Bull.
I really want to be able to experience this game and all it will have to offer but i don't want to have to micro-manage every little thing.
Guess what, once you start to go to the local inn every single day, and get a meal and room, you will not see it as micro-managing anything, but accept it as part of the process, like buying new arrows, bolts, healing kits, potions or scrolls in preparation of your next adventure.
Rest outdoors -5% to end adventure EXP.
Rest in common room of inn, normal end adventure EXP.
Rest in private room with bath, +5% end adventure EXP.
Not eat, -5% to end adventure EXP.
Eat a basic meal/Iron Rations, normal end adventure EXP.
Eat a luxury meal, +5% end adventure EXP.
These could be applied to grinding areas too. No exp until you rest, with the same modifiers as above. Rest outside and no food, -10% experience. Rest outside and a Iron Rations, normal exp.
I'd have to agree with the food factor and rest factor, those who do not eat or rest appropriately should get some sort of fatigue penalty, I could see that aspect alone could help the in-game economy a lot, making plat actually worth something.
Even an inn where it takes 5 RL mins to fully heal would be cool, i know a lot of ppl would flame that idea but at least u could get a 5 min break to stand up an walk around while ur guy is healing, kind of enforce video game rest breaks.
I think the PnP rules regarding food and resting should be used rather than inventing XP modifiers. I don't want to see Neverwinter start down the DDO route of gradually tweaking the rules until the game only vaguely resembles D&D.
I think the PnP rules regarding food and resting should be used rather than inventing XP modifiers. I don't want to see Neverwinter start down the DDO route of gradually tweaking the rules until the game only vaguely resembles D&D.
/agree.
im not familiar with 4e in anyway shape or form, i only know 1e-3.5, but i guess im going to have to read up on 4e if thats the rout they r going.:eek:
You are correct, I do not have a clue about SSO... If it is so damn perfect, why do so many complain about it? Why make another game, when you can stay there and play, since you think it so grand.
People need to get over the knee jerk reaction of a DDO refrence and realize that wether or not you personally like it if the game is still going after 6 years people must play it. The point is that its not perfect...at all. So instead of making the same mistakes or worse ones how about we look at what sort of worked and try and improve it for this game.
What I do have experience with are NWN1 PW's, NWN2 PW's, WoW and Ultima Online, as well as tons of non-MMO CRPG's. That said, I do not want what any of those offer, and they all offerred grinding fields of monsters as the main way to level up. BLEAGH.
I want something more akin to a PnP D&D game.
And yet you refuse to recognize that the explorere areas asmodeous is refrencing ARE NOTHING LIKE THOSE GAMES. You can not farm a level or even a good part of a level from a single explorer area. What you can achieve is topping off a level. IIRC, the single largest reward for "slayers" is something like 55-65k exp for 5k kills. Considering this is about 1/5 of a level at the appropriate range so its literally a drop in the bucket. Now these numbers may/may not need adjusting for exp here but the system itself works. You can long on just to go slay some evil for a little while but the real exp (and the only way to really progress) is to group up and run quests.
While you and many others may want a game more akin to PnP D&D the truth of the matter is that it will not happen. Changes will have to be made and things will be different, this is just a fact that unless your willing to accept it your setting yourself up for disappointment.
What does it achieve? How about a gold sink touch of realism, like it was in PnP games. Hell, my DM's usually had us pay room and board for all down periods between dungeons. Of course Barbarians, Druids and Rangers were given exceptions, due to their classes being so closely tied to the outdoors, and their skill sets.
But the difference between what your suggesting and this is that your DM didnt penalize you for going back to the inn. By forcing this your not increasing RP your just adding yet another MMO change that pulls this even further from the PnP ruleset you covet so much.
.... I would prefer such healing and restorations coming from your God's servants, or the servants of allies of your God. The purpose of an Inn and Food, is to add a sense of believability, RP atmosphere, and yes, a small trickle drain on your treasure supply, to keep the economy of the area going.
I'll agree witht he sense of beliveability and the RP atmosphere but these thigns should be available and not rammed down the players throat. However, the trickle drain on cash is laughable at best. The real cost comes from re-supply and resting/eating is not even a factor cash flow wise.
Heck, I can see where, due to the population of a world, that an Inn might not have a room available, and you are forced to take lesser accomodations, and thus a penalty to learning from poor sleep and/or food.
A physical penalty from camping out I can possibly agree to but trying to say that sleeping out side has somehow affected what I learned that day is garbage. I spent 10 years "camping" all over the world and while there were somedays I moved a little slower due to a bad night this was not an every day thing. Now I'm not one of those "But thats not how it works in real life" kinda guys but this is just nonsense.
Also, if you going to put a mechanic into the game that forces players to not be able to find suitable accomidations and then penalize them in regards to exp because of this then your basically <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> the player.
Plus, one HUGE RP plus, is the possibility for a villian to POISON the parties food, and hamper their efforts to remove him from his hideout.
For this I would suggest something that would reguire a player to stop for a "hot meal" every few days because, as any military guy can atest to, you can only eat trail rations for so long
Guess what, once you start to go to the local inn every single day, and get a meal and room, you will not see it as micro-managing anything, but accept it as part of the process, like buying new arrows, bolts, healing kits, potions or scrolls in preparation of your next adventure.
Just because someone gets used to doing something doesnt make it a good idea And just because its "part of the process" doesnt mean its not micro-managment. How you precieve something does weigh in on how you feel about it but it is what it is. I spent 10 years in the military and had many superiors who used a micro-managment style of leadership and guess what....it always sucked. Even thought it is just the nature of the beast that doesnt automatically make it something that people are going to accept even if they get used to it.
I think the PnP rules regarding food and resting should be used rather than inventing XP modifiers. I don't want to see Neverwinter start down the DDO route of gradually tweaking the rules until the game only vaguely resembles D&D.
What rules on food? (Hint: There are none)
As for their resting rules... This link sums it up nicely...
They made D&D into a computer game for table top when they made 4E.
As for tweaking the rules, they always write in a a mechanic for doing just that, usually in the first couple of pages about the rules being "guidelines."
"Three Basic Rules
Along with the core mechanic, three basic principles should
always be remembered. Other rules in the game are based
on these assumptions.
Simple Rules, Many Exceptions: Every class, race, feat,
power, and monster in the D&D game breaks the rules in
some way. From minor to significant, the game is built upon
exception-based rules design. For example, a normal melee
attack always deals a few points of damage, but every class
has powers that ramp up the damage when they get used.
Specific Beats General: If a specific rule contradicts a
general rule, the specific rule wins. For example, you normally
can’t move as part of a regular attack. But if you have
a power that allows you to move and attack, that specific
rule trumps the general rule—when you use that power....."
They also purposely left rest very vague... No mention of need for bedrolls, tents, rooms in inns, etc. Why, because they focused on mimicing a CRPG with the combat aspects, and left the rest for individual DM's to fine tune for their worlds.
So, explain again how adding food and rest rules into the game in any way makes it any less D&D? I would argue it makes it closer to all other D&D versions, with the mechanics of D&D 4E for Combat.
People need to get over the knee jerk reaction of a DDO refrence and realize that wether or not you personally like it if the game is still going after 6 years people must play it. The point is that its not perfect...at all. So instead of making the same mistakes or worse ones how about we look at what sort of worked and try and improve it for this game.
My point exactly. The 4E Rest and recovery rules are vague at best, and can be improved on to be more like every other version of D&D that existed prior. Remember, 4E was designed around the Combat System, and didn't bother for much of anything else, in effect being a great table top miniature game that could also be converted to a CRPG easily.
And yet you refuse to recognize that the explorere areas asmodeous is refrencing ARE NOTHING LIKE THOSE GAMES. You can not farm a level or even a good part of a level from a single explorer area. What you can achieve is topping off a level. IIRC, the single largest reward for "slayers" is something like 55-65k exp for 5k kills. Considering this is about 1/5 of a level at the appropriate range so its literally a drop in the bucket. Now these numbers may/may not need adjusting for exp here but the system itself works. You can long on just to go slay some evil for a little while but the real exp (and the only way to really progress) is to group up and run quests.
Good to know that DDO has this pet peeve of mine from MMORPG's taken care of. That does not mean Neverwinter will follow the same path. Isn't that why we are here, to tell them what we like and dislike, to get the perfect game?:)
While you and many others may want a game more akin to PnP D&D the truth of the matter is that it will not happen. Changes will have to be made and things will be different, this is just a fact that unless your willing to accept it your setting yourself up for disappointment.
Exactly my point. I want a world that you are immersed in, and part of the immersion is not being able to rest after every encounter with a Kobold and reload all you offensive Spells and Healing. I want Wizards and Clerics to have to be frugal with their spells, and use them when they are needed, not to blast every thing that comes in front of them to oblivion. Just like in PnP games from Chainmail through AD&D 3E. In my opinion,D&D 4e oversimplified things in this regard. (From my readings, and comments of others such as this: http://angrydm.com/2011/02/tearing-4...r-resources/1/)
Implementing simple ambiance changes like requiring "Real" rest and a Hot Meal to get the maximum effect of your adventure fits that purpose completely. While, the cheap ******* who sleeps on the hard ground and eats what he scavenges doesn't do as well. (Unless a Druid, Ranger or Barbarian of course.)
But the difference between what your suggesting and this is that your DM didnt penalize you for going back to the inn. By forcing this your not increasing RP your just adding yet another MMO change that pulls this even further from the PnP ruleset you covet so much.
What PnP rules? There are none for food, and the rest ones are a hatchet job at best. Remember, I don't covet the 4E ruleset, I covet the AD&D enterprise, from Chainmail on, and want the best of all in my PnP recreation.
I'll agree witht he sense of beliveability and the RP atmosphere but these thigns should be available and not rammed down the players throat. However, the trickle drain on cash is laughable at best. The real cost comes from re-supply and resting/eating is not even a factor cash flow wise.
Perhaps not at higher levels, but at lower ones, the 5 gold for a Iron Rations, could be the difference between a Sword or a Club as you weapon. Also, the purpose is not the money sink, (but every little bit helps), but the ambiance and atmosphere. I am not saying you have to go to an Inn, in fact, if you have a tent, and Iron Rations, you would get normal experience for a FULL (Read 6 hours) rest in my proposal. However, if you returned to the Inn, had a nice hot meal, bath and comfy bed, you would learn a bit more, and if you had to sleep in the elements without food, you would not do as well.
A physical penalty from camping out I can possibly agree to but trying to say that sleeping out side has somehow affected what I learned that day is garbage. I spent 10 years "camping" all over the world and while there were somedays I moved a little slower due to a bad night this was not an every day thing. Now I'm not one of those "But thats not how it works in real life" kinda guys but this is just nonsense.
As a retired Military man myself, I can tell you the Military Camping is not that rough. I have slept in a foxhole (Thank you 7th I.D.) and lived on MRE's for weeks at a time. Trust me, after the first day, I was not as sharp and efficient as I was before I left, and every day in the field, my skill deteriorated markedly. I have also slept in a GP medium (Thank you 11th Signal Brigade), on a Cot, with HVAC, and eaten two hots a day, and trust me, I was much better for my tasks in those conditions. (Also helped to have hot coffee all the time.
Also, if you going to put a mechanic into the game that forces players to not be able to find suitable accomidations and then penalize them in regards to exp because of this then your basically <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> the player.
What are the Six "P's" you learned in the Military?
**** Poor Planning Promotes Poor Performance.
When the players learn that renting a room for a month at a time, and a hot a day helps them, they will have said accomodations arranged ahead of time, trust me. Or, they will at least ensure they have a Tent, Bedroll and Iron Rations on them so as not to be penalized. (Or a competent (S-4) Logistician, - ie Ranger, Druid or Barbarian, in the party to make those field arrangements for them.
For this I would suggest something that would reguire a player to stop for a "hot meal" every few days because, as any military guy can atest to, you can only eat trail rations for so long
So true... I would suggest that meal be Prunes and Exlax, so your system will restart if it is MRE's...
Just because someone gets used to doing something doesnt make it a good idea And just because its "part of the process" doesnt mean its not micro-managment. How you precieve something does weigh in on how you feel about it but it is what it is. I spent 10 years in the military and had many superiors who used a micro-managment style of leadership and guess what....it always sucked. Even thought it is just the nature of the beast that doesnt automatically make it something that people are going to accept even if they get used to it.
Fair enough, I too had problems with those Micromanaging leaders, and went through great lengths to show them the error of their ways through strict adherence to their orders...
Once had a new Bn Co, who instigated a Formal Pass policy for all travel to the nearest big city 70 miles away. As the Plt Sgt, I voiced my concerns with it, and was told to carry on. So I did.
I went to my Platoon, and asked them who planned on going to the City the upcoming and next two weekends (Them wanting the pass requests two weeks out.) About half the Platoon raised their hands. I then asked again, who, "might" want to go, and another 30% of the platoon raised their hands. I asked on last time, who, if asked if they wanted to go to the city on the weekend with some friends for a major party, event, etc might go, and, knowing what I was getting at, every single hand went up.
I smiled, and said great, I will have three pass forms for each of your to sign by COB, in triplicate (Thank god for Computers, I spent about 1 minute per soldier in my platoon, per pass request, doing this). It is the new Bn CO's policy that you will have one to leave the base by 50 miles or more. So, we will obediently follow his order to the letter. (The soldiers that knew me for a while, laughed when they realized what I was up to.)
At 1700 hrs, I handed my First Sergeant a ream of paper, all 63 of the soldiers in my platoon had requested a passes for the next three weekends, and would request one every weekend, so as to not get in trouble. He laughed, and said something about reminding him to never **** me off, and took them into the Company CO. The 1st Sgt then called the other 3 Plt Sgt's and had them do the exact same thing I had done. This was on a Tuesday, on Friday, the order was rescinded, and everyone was allowed to travel to the city in question.
However, what I am proposing is not micromanaging, it is actually making the players manage their time and resources wisely, and making them plan ahead, while adding some realism and atmosphere to the game.
You are correct, I do not have a clue about SSO... If it is so damn perfect, why do so many complain about it? Why make another game, when you can stay there and play, since you think it so grand.
What I do have experience with are NWN1 PW's, NWN2 PW's, WoW and Ultima Online, as well as tons of non-MMO CRPG's. That said, I do not want what any of those offer, and they all offerred grinding fields of monsters as the main way to level up. BLEAGH.
I want something more akin to a PnP D&D game.
Here we have you been passive aggressive again. Learn to read, i never said ddo was perfect but then i don't take some random <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> i have no clue about and exaggerate it to the point of silliness and then tell others i don't agree with to go play another game. You've basically admitted here you're taking your fears based on past experience from other games and applying it here.
What does it achieve? How about a gold sink touch of realism, like it was in PnP games. Hell, my DM's usually had us pay room and board for all down periods between dungeons. Of course Barbarians, Druids and Rangers were given exceptions, due to their classes being so closely tied to the outdoors, and their skill sets.
This is what i mean about you wanting a sim game, what you call a touch of realism i call exaggerated BS and on the verge of becoming micro management. Have to say your DM was frigging anal and i wouldn't have enjoyed his sessions.
Again, if DDO is so great, stay there and play it. I would prefer such healing and restorations coming from your God's servants, or the servants of allies of your God. The purpose of an Inn and Food, is to add a sense of believability, RP atmosphere, and yes, a small trickle drain on your treasure supply, to keep the economy of the area going. Stop being juvenile i asked you a question that is all, telling me to stay in ddo is stupid, what's to stop me from taking your "logic" and telling you if you like pnp so much stay there and out of video games and mmos ?
Heck, I can see where, due to the population of a world, that an Inn might not have a room available, and you are forced to take lesser accomodations, and thus a penalty to learning from poor sleep and/or food.
Plus, one HUGE RP plus, is the possibility for a villian to POISON the parties food, and hamper their efforts to remove him from his hideout.
Think of the possibilities and the RP immersion such would provide, and not that you deem it to be a minor inconvenience.
Do you really think they will make a game were you NEED to be able to use an inn and then make it so it can be "full" CLEARLY you have no clue LMAO
Its funny when we ask questions like i have often we get a replies saying well its for atmosphere, for believability and RP but what does that mean exactly, not much as what is believable is not the same for all.
ROFLMAO... D&D Sims. Nice jab. In retort, it seems to me, all you want is another iteration of WoW or DDO. Well, if they are so great, go play them. I want a D&D game that is closer to a PNP experience than a game for Zergers and Uber-Mensches running around like toddlers on a case of Red Bull.
Wasn't a jab, its honestly what i get from your posts, you don't wan't this game to be a mmo but more like a sims type thing. Thing is though it WILL BE an mmo get over it. I don't like WoW and would never pay for that junk (although others might love it it's not my thing).
One thing im getting sick from some people in these forums is the hate bandwagon they are on, with their ignorant close minded attitudes when it come to mmo's.
I'd take a good long look in the mirror if i was before calling some people toddlers on red bull. Grow the hell up already.
Guess what, once you start to go to the local inn every single day, and get a meal and room, you will not see it as micro-managing anything, but accept it as part of the process, like buying new arrows, bolts, healing kits, potions or scrolls in preparation of your next adventure.
Guess what i don't want to have to simulate eating and sleeping all the time, its just a stupid waste of time and doesn't add any realism to my gaming just annoyance.
That doesn't mean we don't prepare for quests its one of ddo strong points in fact.
Just don't over exaggerate these things. That's what i see in your posts an over exaggeration of things because you so damned scared this will turn in to WoW.
I do hope they follow the 4e rules as they were made so vague for a damn reason as such leave them equally vague in this game
I'd love to be able to pull out a quote from the rulebooks for you, but unfortunately I don't have access to mine right now. But, from the Quick Start Rules that you posted, the description for the Endurance feat states:
You can hold your breath for long periods of time, forestall the debilitating effects of hunger and thirst, and swim or tread water for extended periods.
Why would this skill exists if there were no debilitating effect? Also, I have a vague recollection of reading about some kind of penalties for taking an extended rest without proper food, drink, peace, and quiet, but again, I can't quote the rule for you, nor can I guarantee the accuracy of that memory. Hopefully someone with access to the rule books will help out regarding the specifics.
So, if you're correct, and there really is no rule detailing the "debilitating effects" that the Endurance skill explicitly allows characters to forestall, then I would approve of creating a rule to do just that. However, I would still argue against xp modifiers, in part because I recall that the rules for XP awards are clearly defined, and in part because XP modifiers don't affect a character's immediate performance, and thus don't seem to me to be "debilitating".
As for their resting rules... This link sums it up nicely...
I personally like 4e's short and extended rest system, but it seems that my understanding of that system differs somewhat from that of the author of the article you linked. For example:
Place a restriction on how many healing surges a PC can spend outside of encounters. For instance, a PC can only spend two healing surges at the end of a short rest and they cannot take another short rest until they’ve had another encounter first.
According to my recollection, there is already an official rule that says that a party is only allowed to take a single short rest at the end of the encounter, and if they want to rest more than that, they have to take an extended rest instead. Also, I recall there being an explicit rule restricting the use of healing surges during a short rest to 1 per short rest in the absence of powers that specifically allowed the use of additional surges. Again, I don't have access to my rulebooks currently, so I can't double check my memory, but that's what I recall.
Aside from that, it's an interesting and somewhat enjoyable article, although I disagree with some aspects of his tactical analysis. Even if we take it as a given that the requirements for taking an extended rest are so trivial that any party can choose to reliably take an extended rest after every encounter, I still disagree with his premise that the best strategy is to burn all your daily powers on each encounter and then take an extended rest to recharge them.
The author trivializes action points and milestones, and while it's true that not all characters will make much use of these mechanics, some characters can benefit greatly from them. There are magical items which explicitly improve in power once one or more milestones have been reached, and there are feats and paragon path powers that enhance the utility of action points, both by increasing the number of action points that can be used and by increasing the benefits from using them.
I could debate other points in the article, but I'm getting tired, and I'm not sure anyone really cares, so I'll just say that in general, I interpret the author's analysis as a preference for a particular play style that I don't acknowledge as being objectively "the best", even from a purely tactical point of view.
They made D&D into a computer game for table top when they made 4E.
By definition, they did not, as a computer game requires a computer to play, and 4e D&D does not. What they did do is make 4e more focused on the mechanics than previous editions, to the point of ruling that you can knock gelatinous cubes prone if a power says that you can, even if it defies all manner of common sense. There are positive and negative consequences to this approach, but I think that discussion is beyond the scope of the issue at hand.
As for tweaking the rules, they always write in a a mechanic for doing just that, usually in the first couple of pages about the rules being "guidelines."
Houseruling is as old as gaming itself, and is not specific to D&D or even roleplaying games. A purist might say that D&D is the set of official rules only, and that once any houserules are introduced, you're dealing with a D&D variant rather than actual D&D. I won't go that far, but I will say that there is a threshold for how much the rules can be changed before people stop considering a game D&D, and that that threshold will differ somewhat from person to person.
On the other hand, powers/feats/etc. that specifically change the way the game works in some way are a different issue entirely. The "Three Basic Rules" that you quoted are a practical necessity in terms of game design for this type of game. The fact that eladrin don't need to sleep doesn't mean that rules for sleeping don't exist or aren't valid, it just means that eladrin are exempt from them, and have a different set of rules to follow instead.
They also purposely left rest very vague... No mention of need for bedrolls, tents, rooms in inns, etc. Why, because they focused on mimicing a CRPG with the combat aspects, and left the rest for individual DM's to fine tune for their worlds.
In which case the role of DM falls upon Cryptic to determine the necessity for such items, but I would still hope they stay as close as possible to PnP rules. For example, I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that without some kind of shelter, a character can't get the peace they need to perform an extended rest in inclement weather, e.g. a tent or room for rain; a bedroll, bed, or campfire for cold; etc.
So, explain again how adding food and rest rules into the game in any way makes it any less D&D? I would argue it makes it closer to all other D&D versions, with the mechanics of D&D 4E for Combat.
In and of itself, it doesn't, and in fact, given the existing D&D content and rules, it's clear that there should be rules for food and rest. It would actually be very weird if there's not, given that such rules are implicitly referenced in the core source material.
However, that's not to say that there aren't conceivable food and rest rules that could be added that would make it less D&D, and those rules would be ones that actively changed other clearly defined rules so that they no longer had the same meaning.
As for making Neverwinter fall somewhere in between 4e and previous editions, i.e. cherry picking certain rules from 4e that we don't like as much as equivalent rules from previous editions, I can't deny the temptation. I, for one, don't care for 4e's alignment system, and much prefer the 2-axis alignment system of 2e and 3.x (more so 3.x... True Neutral instead of Neutral is just weird). But, there may be other people who actually prefer 4e's alignment system (for some reason).
Also, the 4e rules are written with the intent of being used in conjunction with the other 4e rules rather than a hybrid of 4e and previous versions, so I think it's best to stick with 4e for Neverwinter.
I would love to see more specific rules form 4E on food (I am not familar with the rules for 4e, having stopped being able to play PnP games around 3.5.) I have searhced the Internet for rules o food in 4e, and I have not seen any. Therefore, I suspect the Endurance was written in the earlier phases of the game design, and the food/water reference was never removed, or was deemed something for a later book to implement, if at all.
@ Asm0deus - Nice way to respond to your interpreted alleged passive-aggressiveness on my part, with overt bullheaded in your face aggression.
This is not the first time you have reacted in such a manner to perceived insults. Last time you backed down when it was pointed out.
I do not expect nor care if you do now.
Once burned twice wary.
Consider yourself and your responses Persona non-grata (Read: Ignored), until you can grow up and have a civil discourse like an adult, in the manner of Jendrak, Netkaotl, The-Truthseeker and AndreTheGiant to name a few.
I would love to see more specific rules form 4E on food (I am not familar with the rules for 4e, having stopped being able to play PnP games around 3.5.) I have searhced the Internet for rules o food in 4e, and I have not seen any. Therefore, I suspect the Endurance was written in the earlier phases of the game design, and the food/water reference was never removed, or was deemed something for a later book to implement, if at all.
@ Asm0deus - Nice way to respond to your interpreted alleged passive-aggressiveness on my part, with overt bullheaded in your face aggression.
This is not the first time you have reacted in such a manner to perceived insults. Last time you backed down when it was pointed out.
I do not expect nor care if you do now.
Once burned twice wary.
Consider yourself and your responses Persona non-grata (Read: Ignored), until you can grow up and have a civil discourse like an adult, in the manner of Jendrak, Netkaotl, The-Truthseeker and AndreTheGiant to name a few.
Bah <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> you say you want calm polite discourse yet your the one that hasn't been giving it to me, i just responded in kind.
Take your hypocrisy and shove it old man. I posted A perfectly fine post and you took it all wrong and started with the go play some other game ***** and with the WoW kids on red-bull cracks etc etc and SO yes i responded to you aggressively I'M not the one trying to hide my BS here, you are.
But guess what every-time from now on i see you post a bullcrap post saying kids on redbull blah blah blah i will just post old men using walkers blah blah blah...
My point exactly. The 4E Rest and recovery rules are vague at best, and can be improved on to be more like every other version of D&D that existed prior. Remember, 4E was designed around the Combat System, and didn't bother for much of anything else, in effect being a great table top miniature game that could also be converted to a CRPG easily.
Good to know that DDO has this pet peeve of mine from MMORPG's taken care of. That does not mean Neverwinter will follow the same path. Isn't that why we are here, to tell them what we like and dislike, to get the perfect game?:)
Ok then we are on the same page here. It just appeared that from your responses, espically the pointed comments about "why don't you just stay there", that you were all about trashing DDO and not useing it as an example of what worked vs what didnt vs what could be done better for Neverwinter. You could probably do a better job of conveying your intent if you didnt use the above phrases so people dont think your just nerd raging against DDO.
Exactly my point. I want a world that you are immersed in, and part of the immersion is not being able to rest after every encounter with a Kobold and reload all you offensive Spells and Healing. I want Wizards and Clerics to have to be frugal with their spells, and use them when they are needed, not to blast every thing that comes in front of them to oblivion. Just like in PnP games from Chainmail through AD&D 3E. In my opinion,D&D 4e oversimplified things in this regard. (From my readings, and comments of others such as this: http://angrydm.com/2011/02/tearing-4...r-resources/1/)
Implementing simple ambiance changes like requiring "Real" rest and a Hot Meal to get the maximum effect of your adventure fits that purpose completely. While, the cheap ******* who sleeps on the hard ground and eats what he scavenges doesn't do as well. (Unless a Druid, Ranger or Barbarian of course.)
If this is what your are looking for I would suggest not forcing a group to go to a tavern but instead have that as a option. I would also have rest areas available in quests and explorer areas where "camping" could be done. This would replace the "shrine" system from DDO and require groups to secure an area via locking doors (trapper required), guard duty (players would take turns resting), etc. This would also take care of you other issue....
What are the Six "P's" you learned in the Military?
**** Poor Planning Promotes Poor Performance.
When the players learn that renting a room for a month at a time, and a hot a day helps them, they will have said accomodations arranged ahead of time, trust me. Or, they will at least ensure they have a Tent, Bedroll and Iron Rations on them so as not to be penalized. (Or a competent (S-4) Logistician, - ie Ranger, Druid or Barbarian, in the party to make those field arrangements for them.
Were player to properly out fit before leaving for a quest (bedrolls, food, etc...) they wouldnt need to go back to a INN at all until the quest was finished or supplies ran low. You could allow certain classes like ranger, Barbarian, and Druid to scavange some of these supplies for the ill-equiped or enhance the camp site of a well suplied group to fit in the wilderness aspect of those classes.
I have no issue with incorporating the use of inns and other rsting mechanics into Neverwinter. I just feel that trying to
What PnP rules? There are none for food, and the rest ones are a hatchet job at best. Remember, I don't covet the 4E ruleset, I covet the AD&D enterprise, from Chainmail on, and want the best of all in my PnP recreation.
While the only real rules on resting involve casters needing 6hrs, IIRC, before preparing new spells for the day and meeles to avoid fatigue anything you add to them is still changeing the rule set. Yes its a bit of nitpicking but considering the ammount of "DONT CHANGE THE RULES" rants we have seen I though it was relevant to point it out is all.
Perhaps not at higher levels, but at lower ones, the 5 gold for a Iron Rations, could be the difference between a Sword or a Club as you weapon. Also, the purpose is not the money sink, (but every little bit helps), but the ambiance and atmosphere. I am not saying you have to go to an Inn, in fact, if you have a tent, and Iron Rations, you would get normal experience for a FULL (Read 6 hours) rest in my proposal. However, if you returned to the Inn, had a nice hot meal, bath and comfy bed, you would learn a bit more, and if you had to sleep in the elements without food, you would not do as well.
Was meaning to comment on your exact propsal. You make the comment above as well as in the proposal that resting outside and eating Iron rations woud result in normal exp but the "table" you provided contradicts this statement. Are you saying that the food trumps the rest cause they dont add up?
Rest outdoors -5% to end adventure EXP.
Rest in common room of inn, normal end adventure EXP.
Rest in private room with bath, +5% end adventure EXP.
Not eat, -5% to end adventure EXP. Eat a basic meal/Iron Rations, normal end adventure EXP.
Eat a luxury meal, +5% end adventure EXP.
These could be applied to grinding areas too. No exp until you rest, with the same modifiers as above. Rest outside and no food, -10% experience. Rest outside and a Iron Rations, normal exp.
As a retired Military man myself, I can tell you the Military Camping is not that rough. I have slept in a foxhole (Thank you 7th I.D.) and lived on MRE's for weeks at a time. Trust me, after the first day, I was not as sharp and efficient as I was before I left, and every day in the field, my skill deteriorated markedly. I have also slept in a GP medium (Thank you 11th Signal Brigade), on a Cot, with HVAC, and eaten two hots a day, and trust me, I was much better for my tasks in those conditions. (Also helped to have hot coffee all the time.
This is why im all behind a physical penalty such as -2 to-hit and dmg to reflect your slower responses, fatigue, or what ever you wanna call it. I simply have an issue with imposing a negative to exp because while you many be a little off your game there has never been a situation where I made a mistake due to fatigue that I didnt look at later and go "damn that was dumb, better make sure that doesnt happen again". Learning from experiences is not only an in the moment thing but also a review of what happened adn how it could have been doen better, even when you dead tired. At the bare minimum you learn how to compensate for the fatigue and thats still learning.
.....However, what I am proposing is not micromanaging, it is actually making the players manage their time and resources wisely, and making them plan ahead, while adding some realism and atmosphere to the game.
and I'm sure that you Bn CO thought that the requests would help the troops "manage their time and resources wisely, and making them plan ahead". It's still micro-managment when you try and impliment a system to try and control every aspect of a situation.
Ok then we are on the same page here. It just appeared that from your responses, espically the pointed comments about "why don't you just stay there", that you were all about trashing DDO and not useing it as an example of what worked vs what didnt vs what could be done better for Neverwinter. You could probably do a better job of conveying your intent if you didnt use the above phrases so people dont think your just nerd raging against DDO.
Odd that I came off as being anti-DDO. I have NO experience witht he game, and only base what others here have said both good and bad about it.
My comment was more aimed at the poster who kept saying that DDO was so great, and claiming without any shred of evidence, how this game would be like it... This thread is SPECIFICALLY about what we want the new game to be like, and I do not want Dungeon Siege/WoW environment, where you can complete the same thing over and over and over, untilk you get what you want, and where running around all the time, like a toddler on Red Bull is the norm. I would much prefer old men in walkers.
If this is what your are looking for I would suggest not forcing a group to go to a tavern but instead have that as a option. I would also have rest areas available in quests and explorer areas where "camping" could be done. This would replace the "shrine" system from DDO and require groups to secure an area via locking doors (trapper required), guard duty (players would take turns resting), etc. This would also take care of you other issue.....
I can see this, and would support it, provided no experience was gained until a long term rest was accomplished for outdoors hunting fields, or a dungeon was completed. Just like in PnP games at the end of a gaming session.
The keys are food, water, shelter and at least 6 hours rest/meditation (For the elves) before getting experience, and before being recharged with powers and abilities. Not a quick take a knee and run off after every battle, completely refreshed.
Were player to properly out fit before leaving for a quest (bedrolls, food, etc...) they wouldnt need to go back to a INN at all until the quest was finished or supplies ran low. You could allow certain classes like ranger, Barbarian, and Druid to scavange some of these supplies for the ill-equiped or enhance the camp site of a well suplied group to fit in the wilderness aspect of those classes..
Agreed again, and I mentioned those three having abilities to do otherwise.
I have no issue with incorporating the use of inns and other rsting mechanics into Neverwinter. I just feel that trying to....While the only real rules on resting involve casters needing 6hrs, IIRC, before preparing new spells for the day and meeles to avoid fatigue anything you add to them is still changeing the rule set. Yes its a bit of nitpicking but considering the ammount of "DONT CHANGE THE RULES" rants we have seen I though it was relevant to point it out is all..
Seems we are in agreement about the concept, just not if it is changing the rules or not. Fair enough, but in the case of D&D 4e, there really aren't comprehensive rules to cover these things. So, adding to, is not changing the rules at all. Besides, I am not one to say we have to stay 100% to the Rules, but I sure as heck want the basic combat mechanics, classes, and skill set to follow the rules as much as possible.
Was meaning to comment on your exact propsal. You make the comment above as well as in the proposal that resting outside and eating Iron rations woud result in normal exp but the "table" you provided contradicts this statement. Are you saying that the food trumps the rest cause they dont add up?.
Yep, my bad, should be a -5 penalty. Also by outdoors, I meant in the elements, not in a tent. I could imagine pavilians like the nomads of Asia and Middle East used, having the benefit of a Comfy Inn, instead of a tent. Of course, carrying such large things requires pack animals, and a significant outlay of funds.
This is why im all behind a physical penalty such as -2 to-hit and dmg to reflect your slower responses, fatigue, or what ever you wanna call it. I simply have an issue with imposing a negative to exp because while you many be a little off your game there has never been a situation where I made a mistake due to fatigue that I didnt look at later and go "damn that was dumb, better make sure that doesnt happen again". Learning from experiences is not only an in the moment thing but also a review of what happened adn how it could have been doen better, even when you dead tired. At the bare minimum you learn how to compensate for the fatigue and thats still learning..
I could see a penalty as such, over experience point penalties... Though you would have to have a table as such:
No sleep/Sleep exposed = -2
No food/water = -1
Full Sleep in Tent/Cover = -1
Food = 0
Night at Inn/Pavilian Tent = 0
All cumulative of course. So, outdoors exposed and iron rations would be a -2 penalty.....
and I'm sure that you Bn CO thought that the requests would help the troops "manage their time and resources wisely, and making them plan ahead". It's still micro-managment when you try and impliment a system to try and control every aspect of a situation.
No, it was about control, one hour recall, and trying to keep them from having alcohol related incidents in the Big City and fewer driving while tired incidents.
Odd that I came off as being anti-DDO. I have NO experience witht he game, and only base what others here have said both good and bad about it.
My comment was more aimed at the poster who kept saying that DDO was so great, and claiming without any shred of evidence, how this game would be like it... This thread is SPECIFICALLY about what we want the new game to be like, and I do not want Dungeon Siege/WoW environment, where you can complete the same thing over and over and over, untilk you get what you want, and where running around all the time, like a toddler on Red Bull is the norm. I would much prefer old men in walkers.
Fair enough, I would just remind you that there are others who read your posts besides one specific poster who might get the wrong idea.
I can see this, and would support it, provided no experience was gained until a long term rest was accomplished for outdoors hunting fields, or a dungeon was completed. Just like in PnP games at the end of a gaming session....The keys are food, water, shelter and at least 6 hours rest/meditation (For the elves) before getting experience, and before being recharged with powers and abilities. Not a quick take a knee and run off after every battle, completely refreshed.
I think this would be fine. A simple way to do this would be to have exp delivered after you report back to the quest giver as aposed to the DDO method of exp upon completion of the dungeon. you could even have it go as far as the NPC suggesting "you look tired!? Get some rest at the inn and will talk about what happened later" as a way to cue players what they should do. This might put some players off though so I think it could go either way on this one.
Seems we are in agreement about the concept, just not if it is changing the rules or not. Fair enough, but in the case of D&D 4e, there really aren't comprehensive rules to cover these things. So, adding to, is not changing the rules at all. Besides, I am not one to say we have to stay 100% to the Rules, but I sure as heck want the basic combat mechanics, classes, and skill set to follow the rules as much as possible.
Some would say that since there isnt a rule to change then its not changing the rules while others (like myself) view the rules as a whole and any deviation from them is a change. I think this is just on of those things that depends on your perspective and it really isnt somethign that needs to be argued anyways. We will save this drama for when the game starts and the forums get boring
Yep, my bad, should be a -5 penalty. Also by outdoors, I meant in the elements, not in a tent. I could imagine pavilians like the nomads of Asia and Middle East used, having the benefit of a Comfy Inn, instead of a tent. Of course, carrying such large things requires pack animals, and a significant outlay of funds.
No, it was about control, one hour recall, and trying to keep them from having alcohol related incidents in the Big City and fewer driving while tired incidents.
I think we are just gonna have to agree to disagreeon this one
Bah <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> you say you want calm polite discourse yet your the one that hasn't been giving it to me, i just responded in kind.
Take your hypocrisy and shove it old man. { snip}
But guess what every-time from now on i see you post a bullcrap post saying kids on redbull blah blah blah i will just post old men using walkers blah blah blah...
Now this is not cool at all. Nerd-raging over someone's opinion ofa game thats not going to be released for 8+ months? What exactly are you proving, that you are some kind of internet tough guy, hiding in your room under the guise of anonymity?
I know, you arent here to impress anyone except yourself. Have fun with that....
Now this is not cool at all. Nerd-raging over someone's opinion ofa game thats not going to be released for 8+ months? What exactly are you proving, that you are some kind of internet tough guy, hiding in your room under the guise of anonymity?
I know, you arent here to impress anyone except yourself. Have fun with that....
Actually go back and read the previous posts i wasn't nerd raging just reacted badly to a hypocrit.
You are correct, I do not have a clue about SSO... If it is so damn perfect, why do so many complain about it? Why make another game, when you can stay there and play, since you think it so grand.
ROFLMAO... D&D Sims. Nice jab. In retort, it seems to me, all you want is another iteration of WoW or DDO. Well, if they are so great, go play them. I want a D&D game that is closer to a PNP experience than a game for Zergers and Uber-Mensches running around like toddlers on a case of Red Bull.
Your not going to tell me those were not designed to be insulting and illicit a negative reaction from me especially as he already knows how i react to WoW comments
But ya you're right i should have taken the high road like i did previously before with this guy but he has a way of pushing my buttons.
Its funny how no one mentioned the other guys veiled <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> though except for Jendrak.
Its funny how i'm the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> when every time i post something troll boy doesn't like he can say go play another game, put words in my mouth i never said and basically tell me im a WoW zerger and so is anyone that enjoys DDO.
So oh ya put it all on my back and i will even apologize for my reaction to his post.
Heh at least IM man enough to apologize to all but even more so admit to my behavior which is more than i can say for some.
You are correct, I do not have a clue about SSO... If it is so damn perfect, why do so many complain about it? Why make another game, when you can stay there and play, since you think it so grand.
What I do have experience with are NWN1 PW's, NWN2 PW's, WoW and Ultima Online, as well as tons of non-MMO CRPG's. That said, I do not want what any of those offer, and they all offerred grinding fields of monsters as the main way to level up. BLEAGH.
I want something more akin to a PnP D&D game.
I have experience with DDO and tons of rpgs and other mmos.
I wanted a game like you suggest in this quote, but that notion is dead and gone. Its not going to happen. If you only wish to play Neverwinter Night 3 and will not accept any other type of game leave now.... and spare yourself a bursting aorta.
What we are hopefully going to get is Cryptic's best effort to wrap an MMO around a D&D rulebook (I cant even say which edition... just thinking of it gives me gas). Make no mistake, Crypric has a chance to take up what Turbine started... and to do it much better. I'm looking for them to evolve the D&D MMO experience, to utilize more D&D mechanics then ever before.
In essence we are going to get a melding of computer graphic action (combat), which will probably look and sound so real, that it attempts to visualize what we have in our head when we sit at that table and roll real dice.
The reality is that NO DEVELOPER could put together enough dungeons, enough quests to satisfy a lifelong RPG gamer like yourself and I. That my man, is what the foundry is being designed to alleviate. Its the one egg those in DDO land never even thought was possible in an MMO. And its that one egg that has the potential to convert many diehard DDO gamers into Neverwinter gamers.
For the RPG in all of us.. this game should evolve the D&D MMO industry, but we are many years away from any game developer melding the two together so well that we cant tell the difference.
If you have a bit of patience, and see what Cryptic comes up with, you may dissolve many of the same concerns I had with DDO upon its launch, make friends, and enjoy this game for what it will hopefully be, a great, albeit a bit different, D&D online experience.
Actually go back and read the previous posts i wasn't nerd raging just reacted badly to a hypocrit.
I think Cyber Troll is not alone in much of his thoughts. Going to be a major problem for Cryptic. Cyber Troll is the nightmare customer. And its a customer base that needs to be at least partially satisfied for this game to work as well as we all want.
Your problem with Cyber is not what he is trying to say (the imaginary visions he desires for a game thats never gonna happen) but the sarcastic back and forth.
In reality, I think many of us want a game with as much D&D likeness as possible. That means we all have certain things in common. Grind can be minimized, and I'm interested to see, besides the Foundry, how Cryptic plans to address it, and to satisfy the heartbroken and/or downright ****ed off Neverwinter Nights III hopefuls.
I think Cyber Troll is not alone in much of his thoughts. Going to be a major problem for Cryptic. Cyber Troll is the nightmare customer. And its a customer based that needs to be at least partially satisfied for this game to work as well as we all want.
Your problem with Cyber is not what he is trying to say (the imaginary visions he desires for a game thats never gonna happen) but the sarcastic back and forth.
In reality, I think many of us want a game with as much D&D likeness as possible. Grind can be minimized, and I'm interested to see, besides the Foundry, how Cryptic plans to address it, and to satisfy the heartbroken and/or downright ****ed off Neverwinter Nights III hopefuls.
Yes i think just having the foundry will make it so we can various quest so no one will have to repeat the same quest over and over etc. I still would like to be able to repeat quests i enjoyed though without having to roll a new toon.
I also am very curious to see what this will turn out to be. As an ex STO player im also very curious as to what the "improved" foundry will let us do.
Everybody please play nice, even if the other person is perceived rude (including me) thank you.
To summarize my stance on this:
I don't want to be punished if I don't "grind for food."
Doing something that qualifies as "downtime" in a game as necessary is dumb.
If PWE wants to make food offer certain bonuses for eating/drinking (and bonuses/penalties for alcohol) mabye, but unless we're in a situaltion such as a desert, food shouldn't be tracked and considered replenished while near civilization.
All that written, if the devs wanted to have penalties (offset by endurance checks) if one were out of food in a "dungeon" environment when out of rations, I would consider it, but find the idea of spending days to over a week in a place (short of Undermountain) unlikely. It's a long coding process to have a continuous countdown time reset by eating when in dungeons because of the continuous penalties, endurance offset and/or starvation/thirst/death variables to the mix.
Again, I think we are in more agreement than disagreement. I also appreciate your ability to politely agree to disagree, and not take every comment you disagree with as a personal insult. I suspect some of that tact you use here, is due to a certain ten year period of your life. *Salutes*
@ AndretheGiant,
Pretty good observation of my views and desires. Though not sure I am that much of a nightmare customer . I just don't want to see toons running around all the time, in cities, weapons out, nor do I want to see them in Dungeons. (Like I see in too many MMO's now, like WoW, and NWN1 and NWN2 PW's...)
Such actions in a PnP world would get you arrested by the city guard for being a public nuisance at best, breaking laws against having weapon out in public, and potentially murder,manslaughter at worst.
In a PnP Dungeon, 99.999999% of the time, such tactics will get you killed, and unlike a CRPG, you will not just get to click a button and start over, like nothing ever happened. (You have no clue how many characters my first gaming party went through before learning this valuable lesson back in 1978-79.)
Your tagline about "no zergers" says it all to me, that we are of the same mindset in that regard.
@ The-Trushseeker,
This is one aspect, that we are going to have to agree to disagree. It is one of the basics of D&D/AD&D PnP gaming, that I feel is an absolute requirement. You have to be properly nourished and well rested, if you want to increase your odds of survival in a hostile environment. Having enough food on you was always a PnP staple, and keeping track of how much you used was too. Resting was never a quick 5 minutes and run off again, almost completely recharged. It was always try to find a safe location to rest, out of the elements, pull guard duty, eat a meal, and get 8 hours of sleep/meditation.
While eating/resting etc adds to realism, something to think about here is that the game is trying to stick to 4e. It may just be a result of the DMs I had, but rests didn't really take any amount of real world time, nor was there much bonus for eating well (our "bread-barian" discovered the joys of pancakes and.. well... many in game hours later...).
I'd be interested to see effects from drinking, at least, or (and don't take my head off) bonuses for eating. But eating could be rp'd in any tavern (if we're able to sit in chairs). I remember being on an RP server in another mmo where there was a guild entirely devoted to working a tavern- they sat guests, brought drinks and food, and provided entertainment. It wasn't something required but it really did add to the immersion.
Which kinda brings me to a possible new topic that I don't think we've talked about yet: interaction with objects in the game world.
I love little things in games that I can interact with- we should sit IN chairs, not ON them (especially if "sitting" is actually "perching"). Curtains should move if we run into/through them, etc. It's small but, it's something that really adds to the feeling of a real world.
While eating/resting etc adds to realism, something to think about here is that the game is trying to stick to 4e. It may just be a result of the DMs I had, but rests didn't really take any amount of real world time, nor was there much bonus for eating well (our "bread-barian" discovered the joys of pancakes and.. well... many in game hours later...).
I'd be interested to see effects from drinking, at least, or (and don't take my head off) bonuses for eating. But eating could be rp'd in any tavern (if we're able to sit in chairs). I remember being on an RP server in another mmo where there was a guild entirely devoted to working a tavern- they sat guests, brought drinks and food, and provided entertainment. It wasn't something required but it really did add to the immersion.
Which kinda brings me to a possible new topic that I don't think we've talked about yet: interaction with objects in the game world.
I love little things in games that I can interact with- we should sit IN chairs, not ON them (especially if "sitting" is actually "perching"). Curtains should move if we run into/through them, etc. It's small but, it's something that really adds to the feeling of a real world.
Agreed about the DMs and resting part, was like this for me too in pnp sessions. I agree as well that we should be able to interact with in game object in like vin says about the chairs etc.
One thing i would like to add is lets please not turn this game into a lagg fest. Its one thing we can learn not to do from DDO is to just let lagg slide year after year after year like they have done!
Comments
Unless hiding the UI is a daily power.
See what I did there?
Set yourself up for an immediate reaction opportunity flame?
"Well that pretty much how it is in ddo u get the bulk of you Xp on quest completion and when you recall it auto rests you so to speak so again im not sure what you would want to change?
You can't have it calculate XP at end of your gaming day that just wouldn't work in a mmo frankly i don't see the point of it other than gives the devs useless meaning less work."
First, no auto rest, but actually having to pay for a room, meal and rest. Then getting the EXP for completion. I know this may seem trivial to some, but IMHO, inns do not have a purpose in MMO's, and neither does food for that matter, and I think that is sad. I know in almost all the PnP games I played, both were huge factors in the game.
Hell, I could see modifications... Stackable
Rest outdoors -5% to end adventure EXP.
Rest in common room of inn, normal end adventure EXP.
Rest in private room with bath, +5% end adventure EXP.
Not eat, -5% to end adventure EXP.
Eat a basic meal/Iron Rations, normal end adventure EXP.
Eat a luxury meal, +5% end adventure EXP.
These could be applied to grinding areas too. No exp until you rest, with the same modifiers as above. Rest outside and no food, -10% experience. Rest outside and a Iron Rations, normal exp.
So easily programmed in too.
"Pretty much like that in ddo you get xp for explorers etc once and the more you level above the area the less Xp you get till eventualy you get none so same as above ?"
Not quite the same... Being able to farm an area, incessantly, and get all your experience for several levels (Albeit later at diminished returns), is the problem. After all, how many plain Kobolds do you have to kill, before you are not learning anything new from them? My numbers suggestion, is an easy tracker to program, and would allow perhaps one level in a grinding area from the creatures there, and then you would have to move on.
The secret of course, would be to have multiple, level tuned, grinding areas. However, the focus should be more on dungeons and quests, and less on running around committing genocide against creatures in a given area.
Seems DDO has done a few steps in the right direction, but they could be improved.
Hope that explains it better.
Sigh you clearly haven't a clue how ddo works, no one farms explorer areas for xp unless they are missing like 100xp to lvl its just not effective. DDO isn't a korean grind game were you constantly kill random mobs over and over for xp. Its like you take some small fears you have about things you don't want in this game and exaggerate the mechanics out of proportion.
As to the rest of it i really don't see the use of having to "run to an inn" so you can get your xp tell me what is that suppose to achieve other than get us to run around ?
Last thing in ddo you don't rest in the inn but there is a spirit binder that can heal you and "restore" you, for a price ofc.
I don't mean to be harsh on you man but sometimes i think you want a DnD themed sims game rather than an actual DnD MMO game.
I really want to be able to experience this game and all it will have to offer but i don't want to have to micro-manage every little thing.
1) I want as much control to craft the story for my players in as easy-to-use a fashion as possible.
2) I want my players to be able to skulk thru dungeons and caverns and cities and hamlets with as much mood (effects, fog, music etc) that I can give them. They should be allowed to take a first person view as easily as 3rd; my players in particular want to feel like THEY ARE THERE not that they are looking down at a miniature or behind an action figure.
3) I want to be able to get a game together reasonably quickly. No player wants to wait 2 months for one game.
4) I want my players to bring their character from one game I made to the next with continuity of stats and inventory.
5) I want, as a DM, to take an active role in my adventures when needed. If I need to BE an NPC and chat with them live and fluidly rather than having everything pre scripted then it should be quick and easy to do so. I also want to be able to ghost and follow / watch their progress when needed too.
6) I need the freedom to name anything I want to. Maybe I want my player to inheri a staff from their now-dead master Wizaldo and name it "Wizaldo's Staff" or something. Whether I'm naming their pet chicken on the farm or the deadly dragon they encounter at max lvl, I need that freedom.
7) I need as much freedom to create my own world as I need to use prefab cities etc. Its the forgotten realms. Maybe I need to just plug in YOUR prefab Shadowdale and spend my time detailing the storyline and npcs happening there. But then again, maybe i want to build my own CandleKeep and make it my idea of this historic locale.
8) cities, villages and plentiful social interiors are just as vital as dungeons. I need shadowdale, candlekeep, etc and plenty of interiors for my players to visit, explore and meet important NPCs in. Just roaming through bricj dungeons wont cut it.
9) I need conversaton control. A window popping open with a wall of text is about as immersive in storyline as hitting my players with a brick. Shot reverse shot, close ups, and subtitled dialogue ---and dialogue choices for my players to make, with a conversation tree that's easy to fill out for me, is a must. this is not a "we'll add it some day down the road" option. D&D is about storytelling and immersive role playing just as much as its about equipping loot and slashing monsters.
10) cut scenes. Choose a location, select camera movement, place actors and give them even simple commands, add music and set when player's will trigger it. Here's an example.
After taking an NPC up on an unrefusable offer of riches for retrieving an ancient relic from the Mountain of Despair, they embark on the long journey. After numerous stops and encounters, they reach the foot of the mountain. Trigger cutscene! The mountain, purplish and backit with orange from the sunset, is in center view. the camera slowly pulls back as dramatic, moody music swells. It reveals our 4 adventurers walking towards the mountain and a faint, evil cackle cant be heard echoing in the distance as the camera fades to black. Cutscene ends and we return to our players at the entrance of the dungeon at the foot of the mountain.
It has to be better than -they walk to the mountain and get a splash screen that says LOADING and POOF theyre in the dungeon.
D&D DMs are artists and storytellers, not just action gamers. Give us the tools and the palettes to paint our stories.
You are correct, I do not have a clue about SSO... If it is so damn perfect, why do so many complain about it? Why make another game, when you can stay there and play, since you think it so grand.
What I do have experience with are NWN1 PW's, NWN2 PW's, WoW and Ultima Online, as well as tons of non-MMO CRPG's. That said, I do not want what any of those offer, and they all offerred grinding fields of monsters as the main way to level up. BLEAGH.
I want something more akin to a PnP D&D game.
What does it achieve? How about a gold sink touch of realism, like it was in PnP games. Hell, my DM's usually had us pay room and board for all down periods between dungeons. Of course Barbarians, Druids and Rangers were given exceptions, due to their classes being so closely tied to the outdoors, and their skill sets.
Again, if DDO is so great, stay there and play it. I would prefer such healing and restorations coming from your God's servants, or the servants of allies of your God. The purpose of an Inn and Food, is to add a sense of believability, RP atmosphere, and yes, a small trickle drain on your treasure supply, to keep the economy of the area going.
Heck, I can see where, due to the population of a world, that an Inn might not have a room available, and you are forced to take lesser accomodations, and thus a penalty to learning from poor sleep and/or food.
Plus, one HUGE RP plus, is the possibility for a villian to POISON the parties food, and hamper their efforts to remove him from his hideout.
Think of the possibilities and the RP immersion such would provide, and not that you deem it to be a minor inconvenience.
ROFLMAO... D&D Sims. Nice jab. In retort, it seems to me, all you want is another iteration of WoW or DDO. Well, if they are so great, go play them. I want a D&D game that is closer to a PNP experience than a game for Zergers and Uber-Mensches running around like toddlers on a case of Red Bull.
Guess what, once you start to go to the local inn every single day, and get a meal and room, you will not see it as micro-managing anything, but accept it as part of the process, like buying new arrows, bolts, healing kits, potions or scrolls in preparation of your next adventure.
I'd have to agree with the food factor and rest factor, those who do not eat or rest appropriately should get some sort of fatigue penalty, I could see that aspect alone could help the in-game economy a lot, making plat actually worth something.
Even an inn where it takes 5 RL mins to fully heal would be cool, i know a lot of ppl would flame that idea but at least u could get a 5 min break to stand up an walk around while ur guy is healing, kind of enforce video game rest breaks.
/agree.
im not familiar with 4e in anyway shape or form, i only know 1e-3.5, but i guess im going to have to read up on 4e if thats the rout they r going.:eek:
People need to get over the knee jerk reaction of a DDO refrence and realize that wether or not you personally like it if the game is still going after 6 years people must play it. The point is that its not perfect...at all. So instead of making the same mistakes or worse ones how about we look at what sort of worked and try and improve it for this game.
And yet you refuse to recognize that the explorere areas asmodeous is refrencing ARE NOTHING LIKE THOSE GAMES. You can not farm a level or even a good part of a level from a single explorer area. What you can achieve is topping off a level. IIRC, the single largest reward for "slayers" is something like 55-65k exp for 5k kills. Considering this is about 1/5 of a level at the appropriate range so its literally a drop in the bucket. Now these numbers may/may not need adjusting for exp here but the system itself works. You can long on just to go slay some evil for a little while but the real exp (and the only way to really progress) is to group up and run quests.
While you and many others may want a game more akin to PnP D&D the truth of the matter is that it will not happen. Changes will have to be made and things will be different, this is just a fact that unless your willing to accept it your setting yourself up for disappointment.
But the difference between what your suggesting and this is that your DM didnt penalize you for going back to the inn. By forcing this your not increasing RP your just adding yet another MMO change that pulls this even further from the PnP ruleset you covet so much.
I'll agree witht he sense of beliveability and the RP atmosphere but these thigns should be available and not rammed down the players throat. However, the trickle drain on cash is laughable at best. The real cost comes from re-supply and resting/eating is not even a factor cash flow wise.
A physical penalty from camping out I can possibly agree to but trying to say that sleeping out side has somehow affected what I learned that day is garbage. I spent 10 years "camping" all over the world and while there were somedays I moved a little slower due to a bad night this was not an every day thing. Now I'm not one of those "But thats not how it works in real life" kinda guys but this is just nonsense.
Also, if you going to put a mechanic into the game that forces players to not be able to find suitable accomidations and then penalize them in regards to exp because of this then your basically <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> the player.
For this I would suggest something that would reguire a player to stop for a "hot meal" every few days because, as any military guy can atest to, you can only eat trail rations for so long
Just because someone gets used to doing something doesnt make it a good idea And just because its "part of the process" doesnt mean its not micro-managment. How you precieve something does weigh in on how you feel about it but it is what it is. I spent 10 years in the military and had many superiors who used a micro-managment style of leadership and guess what....it always sucked. Even thought it is just the nature of the beast that doesnt automatically make it something that people are going to accept even if they get used to it.
What rules on food? (Hint: There are none)
As for their resting rules... This link sums it up nicely...
http://angrydm.com/2011/02/tearing-4e-a-new-one-short-rests-and-encounter-resources/1/
They made D&D into a computer game for table top when they made 4E.
As for tweaking the rules, they always write in a a mechanic for doing just that, usually in the first couple of pages about the rules being "guidelines."
For instance:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/4e_Rules
Supplemental Variant Rules
Transformational Variant Rules
Radical Variant Rules
Not-Categorized
Plus from page two http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/quickstartrules.pdf
"Three Basic Rules
Along with the core mechanic, three basic principles should
always be remembered. Other rules in the game are based
on these assumptions.
Simple Rules, Many Exceptions: Every class, race, feat,
power, and monster in the D&D game breaks the rules in
some way. From minor to significant, the game is built upon
exception-based rules design. For example, a normal melee
attack always deals a few points of damage, but every class
has powers that ramp up the damage when they get used.
Specific Beats General: If a specific rule contradicts a
general rule, the specific rule wins. For example, you normally
can’t move as part of a regular attack. But if you have
a power that allows you to move and attack, that specific
rule trumps the general rule—when you use that power....."
They also purposely left rest very vague... No mention of need for bedrolls, tents, rooms in inns, etc. Why, because they focused on mimicing a CRPG with the combat aspects, and left the rest for individual DM's to fine tune for their worlds.
So, explain again how adding food and rest rules into the game in any way makes it any less D&D? I would argue it makes it closer to all other D&D versions, with the mechanics of D&D 4E for Combat.
My point exactly. The 4E Rest and recovery rules are vague at best, and can be improved on to be more like every other version of D&D that existed prior. Remember, 4E was designed around the Combat System, and didn't bother for much of anything else, in effect being a great table top miniature game that could also be converted to a CRPG easily.
Good to know that DDO has this pet peeve of mine from MMORPG's taken care of. That does not mean Neverwinter will follow the same path. Isn't that why we are here, to tell them what we like and dislike, to get the perfect game?:)
Exactly my point. I want a world that you are immersed in, and part of the immersion is not being able to rest after every encounter with a Kobold and reload all you offensive Spells and Healing. I want Wizards and Clerics to have to be frugal with their spells, and use them when they are needed, not to blast every thing that comes in front of them to oblivion. Just like in PnP games from Chainmail through AD&D 3E. In my opinion,D&D 4e oversimplified things in this regard. (From my readings, and comments of others such as this: http://angrydm.com/2011/02/tearing-4...r-resources/1/)
Implementing simple ambiance changes like requiring "Real" rest and a Hot Meal to get the maximum effect of your adventure fits that purpose completely. While, the cheap ******* who sleeps on the hard ground and eats what he scavenges doesn't do as well. (Unless a Druid, Ranger or Barbarian of course.)
What PnP rules? There are none for food, and the rest ones are a hatchet job at best. Remember, I don't covet the 4E ruleset, I covet the AD&D enterprise, from Chainmail on, and want the best of all in my PnP recreation.
Perhaps not at higher levels, but at lower ones, the 5 gold for a Iron Rations, could be the difference between a Sword or a Club as you weapon. Also, the purpose is not the money sink, (but every little bit helps), but the ambiance and atmosphere. I am not saying you have to go to an Inn, in fact, if you have a tent, and Iron Rations, you would get normal experience for a FULL (Read 6 hours) rest in my proposal. However, if you returned to the Inn, had a nice hot meal, bath and comfy bed, you would learn a bit more, and if you had to sleep in the elements without food, you would not do as well.
As a retired Military man myself, I can tell you the Military Camping is not that rough. I have slept in a foxhole (Thank you 7th I.D.) and lived on MRE's for weeks at a time. Trust me, after the first day, I was not as sharp and efficient as I was before I left, and every day in the field, my skill deteriorated markedly. I have also slept in a GP medium (Thank you 11th Signal Brigade), on a Cot, with HVAC, and eaten two hots a day, and trust me, I was much better for my tasks in those conditions. (Also helped to have hot coffee all the time.
What are the Six "P's" you learned in the Military?
**** Poor Planning Promotes Poor Performance.
When the players learn that renting a room for a month at a time, and a hot a day helps them, they will have said accomodations arranged ahead of time, trust me. Or, they will at least ensure they have a Tent, Bedroll and Iron Rations on them so as not to be penalized. (Or a competent (S-4) Logistician, - ie Ranger, Druid or Barbarian, in the party to make those field arrangements for them.
So true... I would suggest that meal be Prunes and Exlax, so your system will restart if it is MRE's...
Fair enough, I too had problems with those Micromanaging leaders, and went through great lengths to show them the error of their ways through strict adherence to their orders...
Once had a new Bn Co, who instigated a Formal Pass policy for all travel to the nearest big city 70 miles away. As the Plt Sgt, I voiced my concerns with it, and was told to carry on. So I did.
I went to my Platoon, and asked them who planned on going to the City the upcoming and next two weekends (Them wanting the pass requests two weeks out.) About half the Platoon raised their hands. I then asked again, who, "might" want to go, and another 30% of the platoon raised their hands. I asked on last time, who, if asked if they wanted to go to the city on the weekend with some friends for a major party, event, etc might go, and, knowing what I was getting at, every single hand went up.
I smiled, and said great, I will have three pass forms for each of your to sign by COB, in triplicate (Thank god for Computers, I spent about 1 minute per soldier in my platoon, per pass request, doing this). It is the new Bn CO's policy that you will have one to leave the base by 50 miles or more. So, we will obediently follow his order to the letter. (The soldiers that knew me for a while, laughed when they realized what I was up to.)
At 1700 hrs, I handed my First Sergeant a ream of paper, all 63 of the soldiers in my platoon had requested a passes for the next three weekends, and would request one every weekend, so as to not get in trouble. He laughed, and said something about reminding him to never **** me off, and took them into the Company CO. The 1st Sgt then called the other 3 Plt Sgt's and had them do the exact same thing I had done. This was on a Tuesday, on Friday, the order was rescinded, and everyone was allowed to travel to the city in question.
However, what I am proposing is not micromanaging, it is actually making the players manage their time and resources wisely, and making them plan ahead, while adding some realism and atmosphere to the game.
Guess what i don't want to have to simulate eating and sleeping all the time, its just a stupid waste of time and doesn't add any realism to my gaming just annoyance.
That doesn't mean we don't prepare for quests its one of ddo strong points in fact.
Just don't over exaggerate these things. That's what i see in your posts an over exaggeration of things because you so damned scared this will turn in to WoW.
I do hope they follow the 4e rules as they were made so vague for a damn reason
I'd love to be able to pull out a quote from the rulebooks for you, but unfortunately I don't have access to mine right now. But, from the Quick Start Rules that you posted, the description for the Endurance feat states:
Why would this skill exists if there were no debilitating effect? Also, I have a vague recollection of reading about some kind of penalties for taking an extended rest without proper food, drink, peace, and quiet, but again, I can't quote the rule for you, nor can I guarantee the accuracy of that memory. Hopefully someone with access to the rule books will help out regarding the specifics.
So, if you're correct, and there really is no rule detailing the "debilitating effects" that the Endurance skill explicitly allows characters to forestall, then I would approve of creating a rule to do just that. However, I would still argue against xp modifiers, in part because I recall that the rules for XP awards are clearly defined, and in part because XP modifiers don't affect a character's immediate performance, and thus don't seem to me to be "debilitating".
I personally like 4e's short and extended rest system, but it seems that my understanding of that system differs somewhat from that of the author of the article you linked. For example:
According to my recollection, there is already an official rule that says that a party is only allowed to take a single short rest at the end of the encounter, and if they want to rest more than that, they have to take an extended rest instead. Also, I recall there being an explicit rule restricting the use of healing surges during a short rest to 1 per short rest in the absence of powers that specifically allowed the use of additional surges. Again, I don't have access to my rulebooks currently, so I can't double check my memory, but that's what I recall.
Aside from that, it's an interesting and somewhat enjoyable article, although I disagree with some aspects of his tactical analysis. Even if we take it as a given that the requirements for taking an extended rest are so trivial that any party can choose to reliably take an extended rest after every encounter, I still disagree with his premise that the best strategy is to burn all your daily powers on each encounter and then take an extended rest to recharge them.
The author trivializes action points and milestones, and while it's true that not all characters will make much use of these mechanics, some characters can benefit greatly from them. There are magical items which explicitly improve in power once one or more milestones have been reached, and there are feats and paragon path powers that enhance the utility of action points, both by increasing the number of action points that can be used and by increasing the benefits from using them.
I could debate other points in the article, but I'm getting tired, and I'm not sure anyone really cares, so I'll just say that in general, I interpret the author's analysis as a preference for a particular play style that I don't acknowledge as being objectively "the best", even from a purely tactical point of view.
By definition, they did not, as a computer game requires a computer to play, and 4e D&D does not. What they did do is make 4e more focused on the mechanics than previous editions, to the point of ruling that you can knock gelatinous cubes prone if a power says that you can, even if it defies all manner of common sense. There are positive and negative consequences to this approach, but I think that discussion is beyond the scope of the issue at hand.
Houseruling is as old as gaming itself, and is not specific to D&D or even roleplaying games. A purist might say that D&D is the set of official rules only, and that once any houserules are introduced, you're dealing with a D&D variant rather than actual D&D. I won't go that far, but I will say that there is a threshold for how much the rules can be changed before people stop considering a game D&D, and that that threshold will differ somewhat from person to person.
On the other hand, powers/feats/etc. that specifically change the way the game works in some way are a different issue entirely. The "Three Basic Rules" that you quoted are a practical necessity in terms of game design for this type of game. The fact that eladrin don't need to sleep doesn't mean that rules for sleeping don't exist or aren't valid, it just means that eladrin are exempt from them, and have a different set of rules to follow instead.
In which case the role of DM falls upon Cryptic to determine the necessity for such items, but I would still hope they stay as close as possible to PnP rules. For example, I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that without some kind of shelter, a character can't get the peace they need to perform an extended rest in inclement weather, e.g. a tent or room for rain; a bedroll, bed, or campfire for cold; etc.
In and of itself, it doesn't, and in fact, given the existing D&D content and rules, it's clear that there should be rules for food and rest. It would actually be very weird if there's not, given that such rules are implicitly referenced in the core source material.
However, that's not to say that there aren't conceivable food and rest rules that could be added that would make it less D&D, and those rules would be ones that actively changed other clearly defined rules so that they no longer had the same meaning.
As for making Neverwinter fall somewhere in between 4e and previous editions, i.e. cherry picking certain rules from 4e that we don't like as much as equivalent rules from previous editions, I can't deny the temptation. I, for one, don't care for 4e's alignment system, and much prefer the 2-axis alignment system of 2e and 3.x (more so 3.x... True Neutral instead of Neutral is just weird). But, there may be other people who actually prefer 4e's alignment system (for some reason).
Also, the 4e rules are written with the intent of being used in conjunction with the other 4e rules rather than a hybrid of 4e and previous versions, so I think it's best to stick with 4e for Neverwinter.
Appreciate the calm, polite discourse.
I would love to see more specific rules form 4E on food (I am not familar with the rules for 4e, having stopped being able to play PnP games around 3.5.) I have searhced the Internet for rules o food in 4e, and I have not seen any. Therefore, I suspect the Endurance was written in the earlier phases of the game design, and the food/water reference was never removed, or was deemed something for a later book to implement, if at all.
@ Asm0deus - Nice way to respond to your interpreted alleged passive-aggressiveness on my part, with overt bullheaded in your face aggression.
This is not the first time you have reacted in such a manner to perceived insults. Last time you backed down when it was pointed out.
I do not expect nor care if you do now.
Once burned twice wary.
Consider yourself and your responses Persona non-grata (Read: Ignored), until you can grow up and have a civil discourse like an adult, in the manner of Jendrak, Netkaotl, The-Truthseeker and AndreTheGiant to name a few.
Sadly, WotC seems to be much less open about 4e than they have been with 3.x, which may have something to do with this.
Bah <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> you say you want calm polite discourse yet your the one that hasn't been giving it to me, i just responded in kind.
Take your hypocrisy and shove it old man. I posted A perfectly fine post and you took it all wrong and started with the go play some other game ***** and with the WoW kids on red-bull cracks etc etc and SO yes i responded to you aggressively I'M not the one trying to hide my BS here, you are.
But guess what every-time from now on i see you post a bullcrap post saying kids on redbull blah blah blah i will just post old men using walkers blah blah blah...
Ok then we are on the same page here. It just appeared that from your responses, espically the pointed comments about "why don't you just stay there", that you were all about trashing DDO and not useing it as an example of what worked vs what didnt vs what could be done better for Neverwinter. You could probably do a better job of conveying your intent if you didnt use the above phrases so people dont think your just nerd raging against DDO.
If this is what your are looking for I would suggest not forcing a group to go to a tavern but instead have that as a option. I would also have rest areas available in quests and explorer areas where "camping" could be done. This would replace the "shrine" system from DDO and require groups to secure an area via locking doors (trapper required), guard duty (players would take turns resting), etc. This would also take care of you other issue....
Were player to properly out fit before leaving for a quest (bedrolls, food, etc...) they wouldnt need to go back to a INN at all until the quest was finished or supplies ran low. You could allow certain classes like ranger, Barbarian, and Druid to scavange some of these supplies for the ill-equiped or enhance the camp site of a well suplied group to fit in the wilderness aspect of those classes.
I have no issue with incorporating the use of inns and other rsting mechanics into Neverwinter. I just feel that trying to
While the only real rules on resting involve casters needing 6hrs, IIRC, before preparing new spells for the day and meeles to avoid fatigue anything you add to them is still changeing the rule set. Yes its a bit of nitpicking but considering the ammount of "DONT CHANGE THE RULES" rants we have seen I though it was relevant to point it out is all.
Was meaning to comment on your exact propsal. You make the comment above as well as in the proposal that resting outside and eating Iron rations woud result in normal exp but the "table" you provided contradicts this statement. Are you saying that the food trumps the rest cause they dont add up?
This is why im all behind a physical penalty such as -2 to-hit and dmg to reflect your slower responses, fatigue, or what ever you wanna call it. I simply have an issue with imposing a negative to exp because while you many be a little off your game there has never been a situation where I made a mistake due to fatigue that I didnt look at later and go "damn that was dumb, better make sure that doesnt happen again". Learning from experiences is not only an in the moment thing but also a review of what happened adn how it could have been doen better, even when you dead tired. At the bare minimum you learn how to compensate for the fatigue and thats still learning.
QFT!!!!!:D
and I'm sure that you Bn CO thought that the requests would help the troops "manage their time and resources wisely, and making them plan ahead". It's still micro-managment when you try and impliment a system to try and control every aspect of a situation.
Odd that I came off as being anti-DDO. I have NO experience witht he game, and only base what others here have said both good and bad about it.
My comment was more aimed at the poster who kept saying that DDO was so great, and claiming without any shred of evidence, how this game would be like it... This thread is SPECIFICALLY about what we want the new game to be like, and I do not want Dungeon Siege/WoW environment, where you can complete the same thing over and over and over, untilk you get what you want, and where running around all the time, like a toddler on Red Bull is the norm. I would much prefer old men in walkers.
I can see this, and would support it, provided no experience was gained until a long term rest was accomplished for outdoors hunting fields, or a dungeon was completed. Just like in PnP games at the end of a gaming session.
The keys are food, water, shelter and at least 6 hours rest/meditation (For the elves) before getting experience, and before being recharged with powers and abilities. Not a quick take a knee and run off after every battle, completely refreshed.
Agreed again, and I mentioned those three having abilities to do otherwise.
Seems we are in agreement about the concept, just not if it is changing the rules or not. Fair enough, but in the case of D&D 4e, there really aren't comprehensive rules to cover these things. So, adding to, is not changing the rules at all. Besides, I am not one to say we have to stay 100% to the Rules, but I sure as heck want the basic combat mechanics, classes, and skill set to follow the rules as much as possible.
Yep, my bad, should be a -5 penalty. Also by outdoors, I meant in the elements, not in a tent. I could imagine pavilians like the nomads of Asia and Middle East used, having the benefit of a Comfy Inn, instead of a tent. Of course, carrying such large things requires pack animals, and a significant outlay of funds.
I could see a penalty as such, over experience point penalties... Though you would have to have a table as such:
No sleep/Sleep exposed = -2
No food/water = -1
Full Sleep in Tent/Cover = -1
Food = 0
Night at Inn/Pavilian Tent = 0
All cumulative of course. So, outdoors exposed and iron rations would be a -2 penalty.....
A case of Omelet MRE's for you, and that is all you get to eat.
No, it was about control, one hour recall, and trying to keep them from having alcohol related incidents in the Big City and fewer driving while tired incidents.
Fair enough, I would just remind you that there are others who read your posts besides one specific poster who might get the wrong idea.
I think this would be fine. A simple way to do this would be to have exp delivered after you report back to the quest giver as aposed to the DDO method of exp upon completion of the dungeon. you could even have it go as far as the NPC suggesting "you look tired!? Get some rest at the inn and will talk about what happened later" as a way to cue players what they should do. This might put some players off though so I think it could go either way on this one.
Some would say that since there isnt a rule to change then its not changing the rules while others (like myself) view the rules as a whole and any deviation from them is a change. I think this is just on of those things that depends on your perspective and it really isnt somethign that needs to be argued anyways. We will save this drama for when the game starts and the forums get boring
OK then that makes alot more sense.
As long as there is a way for the properly prepaired, or very skilled in the case of certain classes, to avoid the penalty this would work.
I'll take the -1 thank you
I think we are just gonna have to agree to disagreeon this one
Now this is not cool at all. Nerd-raging over someone's opinion ofa game thats not going to be released for 8+ months? What exactly are you proving, that you are some kind of internet tough guy, hiding in your room under the guise of anonymity?
I know, you arent here to impress anyone except yourself. Have fun with that....
Actually go back and read the previous posts i wasn't nerd raging just reacted badly to a hypocrit.
http://forums.playneverwinter.com/showpost.php?p=90000&postcount=158
Heres a few quotes from it:
Your not going to tell me those were not designed to be insulting and illicit a negative reaction from me especially as he already knows how i react to WoW comments
But ya you're right i should have taken the high road like i did previously before with this guy but he has a way of pushing my buttons.
Its funny how no one mentioned the other guys veiled <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> though except for Jendrak.
Its funny how i'm the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> when every time i post something troll boy doesn't like he can say go play another game, put words in my mouth i never said and basically tell me im a WoW zerger and so is anyone that enjoys DDO.
So oh ya put it all on my back and i will even apologize for my reaction to his post.
Heh at least IM man enough to apologize to all but even more so admit to my behavior which is more than i can say for some.
I have experience with DDO and tons of rpgs and other mmos.
I wanted a game like you suggest in this quote, but that notion is dead and gone. Its not going to happen. If you only wish to play Neverwinter Night 3 and will not accept any other type of game leave now.... and spare yourself a bursting aorta.
What we are hopefully going to get is Cryptic's best effort to wrap an MMO around a D&D rulebook (I cant even say which edition... just thinking of it gives me gas). Make no mistake, Crypric has a chance to take up what Turbine started... and to do it much better. I'm looking for them to evolve the D&D MMO experience, to utilize more D&D mechanics then ever before.
In essence we are going to get a melding of computer graphic action (combat), which will probably look and sound so real, that it attempts to visualize what we have in our head when we sit at that table and roll real dice.
The reality is that NO DEVELOPER could put together enough dungeons, enough quests to satisfy a lifelong RPG gamer like yourself and I. That my man, is what the foundry is being designed to alleviate. Its the one egg those in DDO land never even thought was possible in an MMO. And its that one egg that has the potential to convert many diehard DDO gamers into Neverwinter gamers.
For the RPG in all of us.. this game should evolve the D&D MMO industry, but we are many years away from any game developer melding the two together so well that we cant tell the difference.
If you have a bit of patience, and see what Cryptic comes up with, you may dissolve many of the same concerns I had with DDO upon its launch, make friends, and enjoy this game for what it will hopefully be, a great, albeit a bit different, D&D online experience.
I think Cyber Troll is not alone in much of his thoughts. Going to be a major problem for Cryptic. Cyber Troll is the nightmare customer. And its a customer base that needs to be at least partially satisfied for this game to work as well as we all want.
Your problem with Cyber is not what he is trying to say (the imaginary visions he desires for a game thats never gonna happen) but the sarcastic back and forth.
In reality, I think many of us want a game with as much D&D likeness as possible. That means we all have certain things in common. Grind can be minimized, and I'm interested to see, besides the Foundry, how Cryptic plans to address it, and to satisfy the heartbroken and/or downright ****ed off Neverwinter Nights III hopefuls.
Yes i think just having the foundry will make it so we can various quest so no one will have to repeat the same quest over and over etc. I still would like to be able to repeat quests i enjoyed though without having to roll a new toon.
I also am very curious to see what this will turn out to be. As an ex STO player im also very curious as to what the "improved" foundry will let us do.
To summarize my stance on this:
I don't want to be punished if I don't "grind for food."
Doing something that qualifies as "downtime" in a game as necessary is dumb.
If PWE wants to make food offer certain bonuses for eating/drinking (and bonuses/penalties for alcohol) mabye, but unless we're in a situaltion such as a desert, food shouldn't be tracked and considered replenished while near civilization.
All that written, if the devs wanted to have penalties (offset by endurance checks) if one were out of food in a "dungeon" environment when out of rations, I would consider it, but find the idea of spending days to over a week in a place (short of Undermountain) unlikely. It's a long coding process to have a continuous countdown time reset by eating when in dungeons because of the continuous penalties, endurance offset and/or starvation/thirst/death variables to the mix.
Again, I think we are in more agreement than disagreement. I also appreciate your ability to politely agree to disagree, and not take every comment you disagree with as a personal insult. I suspect some of that tact you use here, is due to a certain ten year period of your life. *Salutes*
@ AndretheGiant,
Pretty good observation of my views and desires. Though not sure I am that much of a nightmare customer
Such actions in a PnP world would get you arrested by the city guard for being a public nuisance at best, breaking laws against having weapon out in public, and potentially murder,manslaughter at worst.
In a PnP Dungeon, 99.999999% of the time, such tactics will get you killed, and unlike a CRPG, you will not just get to click a button and start over, like nothing ever happened. (You have no clue how many characters my first gaming party went through before learning this valuable lesson back in 1978-79.)
Your tagline about "no zergers" says it all to me, that we are of the same mindset in that regard.
@ The-Trushseeker,
This is one aspect, that we are going to have to agree to disagree. It is one of the basics of D&D/AD&D PnP gaming, that I feel is an absolute requirement. You have to be properly nourished and well rested, if you want to increase your odds of survival in a hostile environment. Having enough food on you was always a PnP staple, and keeping track of how much you used was too. Resting was never a quick 5 minutes and run off again, almost completely recharged. It was always try to find a safe location to rest, out of the elements, pull guard duty, eat a meal, and get 8 hours of sleep/meditation.
I'd be interested to see effects from drinking, at least, or (and don't take my head off) bonuses for eating. But eating could be rp'd in any tavern (if we're able to sit in chairs). I remember being on an RP server in another mmo where there was a guild entirely devoted to working a tavern- they sat guests, brought drinks and food, and provided entertainment. It wasn't something required but it really did add to the immersion.
Which kinda brings me to a possible new topic that I don't think we've talked about yet: interaction with objects in the game world.
I love little things in games that I can interact with- we should sit IN chairs, not ON them (especially if "sitting" is actually "perching"). Curtains should move if we run into/through them, etc. It's small but, it's something that really adds to the feeling of a real world.
Agreed about the DMs and resting part, was like this for me too in pnp sessions. I agree as well that we should be able to interact with in game object in like vin says about the chairs etc.
One thing i would like to add is lets please not turn this game into a lagg fest. Its one thing we can learn not to do from DDO is to just let lagg slide year after year after year like they have done!