One thing i would like to add is lets please not turn this game into a lagg fest. Its one thing we can learn not to do from DDO is to just let lagg slide year after year after year like they have done!
That's a tricky one, I think. It comes down to figuring out how to make a good looking game that can run on the most number of machines. As mentioned in another thread, not everyone has super high end gaming machines that can take playing an MMO on the highest settings. Maybe if the difference between low and Ultra (or whatever the highest is) is larger...? But not being a developer I'm not sure how hard that is.
Other than that, most lag is Network lag not server lag. If it's server lag, everyone is gonna be screwed and whinging about it (I've only just started playing DDO so I've not been in any high pop areas where lag may occur- don't kill me!). But Server lag usually gets cleared up pretty quick, considering it buggers everyone.
That's a tricky one, I think. It comes down to figuring out how to make a good looking game that can run on the most number of machines. As mentioned in another thread, not everyone has super high end gaming machines that can take playing an MMO on the highest settings. Maybe if the difference between low and Ultra (or whatever the highest is) is larger...? But not being a developer I'm not sure how hard that is.
Other than that, most lag is Network lag not server lag. If it's server lag, everyone is gonna be screwed and whinging about it (I've only just started playing DDO so I've not been in any high pop areas where lag may occur- don't kill me!). But Server lag usually gets cleared up pretty quick, considering it buggers everyone.
Yes there many different kinds of lagg many times it is the computers problem but the lagg i mean is server lagg. DDO has suffered this and most games eventually fix this problem but DDO has let it slide. Sure it can be connection problems that you usauly can detect via the ping command, it can be you pc etc etc but sometimes it is server side.
For example in subterrane in /loc i2049 to i2052 we often have lag that gets entire 12 man parties wiped lately. Heh is funny when whole parties can't move are floating in air etc etc lol
Yet the same pc can play other mmo's with far more people on screen and no lagg. You can see this in shroud when the chest are generating loot, this lagg im talking about.
The higher pc requirements lagg more than usually can be resolved by lowering the games graphics settings.
Yes there many different kinds of lagg many times it is the computers problem but the lagg i mean is server lagg. DDO has suffered this and most games eventually fix this problem but DDO has let it slide. Sure it can be connection problems that you usauly can detect via the ping command, it can be you pc etc etc but sometimes it is server side.
For example in subterrane in /loc i2049 to i2052 we often have lag that gets entire 12 man parties wiped lately. Heh is funny when whole parties can't move are floating in air etc etc lol
Yet the same pc can play other mmo's with far more people on screen and no lagg. You can see this in shroud when the chest are generating loot, this lagg im talking about.
The higher pc requirements lagg more than usually can be resolved by lowering the games graphics settings.
To me I see Turbine's inability to fix lag a testament to their incompetency. I mean come on, years and years this game has been out and still no fix to a problem that I'm guessing has been around since launch? Srsly Turbine?
Not to mention apparently, if it is believable since a guy in Shroud said this, there is no lag in DDO according to the Dev's... they said so and any lag issues is a result of the user end not on their end. Even though myself and many other can have no lag with much higher quality MMOs that make DDO look retro a couple times over. But nooo according to Turbine it's all on our end though and not theirs at all.
I think part of the problem is that lag can be a really hard thing to diagnose/reproduce. If they have a hard time reproducing it internally, they'd essentially be grasping at straws as to what's causing it. It's an equation with far too many variables. They'd need the tracert of the players experiencing lag, and maybe they could diagnose it from there but unless it's a major server problem, I don't think they would be able to justify the time/money spent =(
Generally though, if you're seeing lag, turn down the game settings, check your internet connection, minimize the downloading done on your connection, make sure you're running the right version of flash and direct X... The number of possible solutions is really... really... varied.
It sucks but imho unless it's severe and persistent, lag isn't something that concerns me.
I think part of the problem is that lag can be a really hard thing to diagnose/reproduce. If they have a hard time reproducing it internally, they'd essentially be grasping at straws as to what's causing it. It's an equation with far too many variables. They'd need the tracert of the players experiencing lag, and maybe they could diagnose it from there but unless it's a major server problem, I don't think they would be able to justify the time/money spent =(
Generally though, if you're seeing lag, turn down the game settings, check your internet connection, minimize the downloading done on your connection, make sure you're running the right version of flash and direct X... The number of possible solutions is really... really... varied.
It sucks but imho unless it's severe and persistent, lag isn't something that concerns me.
Vin do enough raids and you will see and suffer lagg in ddo anyone that says they don't ever have lagg isn't being honest.
Turbine even has told us they have a possible lagg fix in the next patch but no promises. I understand that some my be skeptical so look here, comment by DDO staff:
What im talking about isn't network lag graphical lagg etc ive done tracert pings etc etc amongst other dos commands and the issue is server lagg.
I've played Perfect world back before the International client (was on english MY servers i believe) and even then didn't have lagg like i see in ddo, only lagg i had was my pc and it was graphical lagg as my pc was junk back then.
I've played Perfect world back before the International client (was on english MY servers i believe) and even then didn't have lagg like i see in ddo, only lagg i had was my pc and it was graphical lagg as my pc was junk back then.
Good thing it will be on PWE's servers and not Turbine's!
Not to try and derail this any further but I may have an idea of what that fix is going to be.
Currently, DDO uses instance based areas. These instances are layered on the server so that they all occupy the same space but the individual player can only see/access his specific zone. One major source of "server lag" is when several instances of a dungeon get overlaid on top of each other. This is much more common with popular quests (such as Shroud) hence more visable.
The fix might be to use more of the available server space instead of dog piling these into their assigned zone but I just guessing on that one.
Again, I think we are in more agreement than disagreement. I also appreciate your ability to politely agree to disagree, and not take every comment you disagree with as a personal insult. I suspect some of that tact you use here, is due to a certain ten year period of your life. *Salutes*
@ AndretheGiant,
Pretty good observation of my views and desires. Though not sure I am that much of a nightmare customer . I just don't want to see toons running around all the time, in cities, weapons out, nor do I want to see them in Dungeons. (Like I see in too many MMO's now, like WoW, and NWN1 and NWN2 PW's...)
A
Such actions in a PnP world would get you arrested by the city guard for being a public nuisance at best, breaking laws against having weapon out in public, and potentially murder,manslaughter at worst.
In a PnP Dungeon, 99.999999% of the time, such tactics will get you killed, and unlike a CRPG, you will not just get to click a button and start over, like nothing ever happened. (You have no clue how many characters my first gaming party went through before learning this valuable lesson back in 1978-79.)
Your tagline about "no zergers" says it all to me, that we are of the same mindset in that regard.
@ The-Trushseeker,
This is one aspect, that we are going to have to agree to disagree. It is one of the basics of D&D/AD&D PnP gaming, that I feel is an absolute requirement. You have to be properly nourished and well rested, if you want to increase your odds of survival in a hostile environment. Having enough food on you was always a PnP staple, and keeping track of how much you used was too. Resting was never a quick 5 minutes and run off again, almost completely recharged. It was always try to find a safe location to rest, out of the elements, pull guard duty, eat a meal, and get 8 hours of sleep/meditation.
And having played all the D&D computer AND MMO games, I have yet to see one D&D computer game enforce food/drink (besides Dark Sun which does so limitedly. You use water flasks, can cook a vulture, get food traded (not eaten) like grain and fruit=potions, but that's it.) Even (the video game) Icewindale used rations to reduce (not cure) fatigue only. And what if you have rations but no "water skin" in a computer game? How much water is that, and when does thirst start compared to hunger since it happens a lot faster than starvation? You'll soon find out figuring this out is a ridiculous coding nightmare and that's for single player games, not multi-player!
Coding wise, it doesn't (yet) logisticly work once you go multiplayer to track such things.
It's not like you do on paper or Dark Tower (feeling retro) where you simply update somkething on a sheet (or a pegboard.) There are multiple tracking conditions for food, drink and inebriation. The latter (alcohol) can be done when you have a straight positive ansd negative "effects" buff/debuff. But having hunger AND thirst AND endurance checks AND saving throws (potentially but really Death ST,) and some/all/none of these tracking have to be reset if one eats AND/OR drinks (water,) is a coding MAJOR PITA (That's Pain in the Assuming you can guess the last word without it censoring me.)
As a player of all things D&D and MMO (before these games were even MMO, like MUD and other acronyms that aren't even kept in Wikkis anymore,) I've seen what the technology can do and can't do. But more importantly, I've seen what the D&D computer gamer's world and MMO ONLINE PLAYERS want and don't want.
Respectfully, our gaming development technology isn't easy of programming enough to make it simple to "buy food and drink to stay well." Even when developmentally focused upon, it does not have the D&D computer gaming support. Again, let me stress this is for D&D computer gaming support, including this kind of thing asked about and refused in DDO (for both coding and non-support by customers.)
If you have the tech but not support it's an "easy" add, maybe even a hardcore option. If you have the support but the tech isn't easy, it will be worked on developing because of the demand for "popular realism over simplicity." But what we have here is tech/development engine code coupled with (often) minimal support for food/drink being mandatory to survive in an MMO, even a D&D MMO.
Oc course, if you can get enough people to show interest (at minimum a majority most of the time,) then it could be developed into a future build if not yet implemented. But you'll see a lot of things that make sense in the imagination, are just a chore when you have to do it in a multiplayer environment, as well as what does not simply translate from the tabletop imagination to the unsupported computer/MMO gamer.
But by all means, if you find the support to push this through and make it a NON-GRIND or NON-BUY FOOD IN BULK (or anti-repeat fun task,) then get it through with my and many other role-player's blessings.
And having played all the D&D computer AND MMO games, I have yet to see one D&D computer game enforce food/drink (besides Dark Sun which does so limitedly. You use water flasks, can cook a vulture, get food traded (not eaten) like grain and fruit=potions, but that's it.) Even (the video game) Icewindale used rations to reduce (not cure) fatigue only. And what if you have rations but no "water skin" in a computer game? How much water is that, and when does thirst start compared to hunger since it happens a lot faster than starvation? You'll soon find out figuring this out is a ridiculous coding nightmare and that's for single player games, not multi-player!
Coding wise, it doesn't (yet) logisticly work once you go multiplayer to track such things.
It's not like you do on paper or Dark Tower (feeling retro) where you simply update somkething on a sheet (or a pegboard.) There are multiple tracking conditions for food, drink and inebriation. The latter (alcohol) can be done when you have a straight positive ansd negative "effects" buff/debuff. But having hunger AND thirst AND endurance checks AND saving throws (potentially but really Death ST,) and some/all/none of these tracking have to be reset if one eats AND/OR drinks (water,) is a coding MAJOR PITA (That's Pain in the Assuming you can guess the last word without it censoring me.)
As a player of all things D&D and MMO (before these games were even MMO, like MUD and other acronyms that aren't even kept in Wikkis anymore,) I've seen what the technology can do and can't do. But more importantly, I've seen what the D&D computer gamer's world and MMO ONLINE PLAYERS want and don't want.
Respectfully, our gaming development technology isn't easy of programming enough to make it simple to "buy food and drink to stay well." Even when developmentally focused upon, it does not have the D&D computer gaming support. Again, let me stress this is for D&D computer gaming support, including this kind of thing asked about and refused in DDO (for both coding and non-support by customers.)
If you have the tech but not support it's an "easy" add, maybe even a hardcore option. If you have the support but the tech isn't easy, it will be worked on developing because of the demand for "popular realism over simplicity." But what we have here is tech/development engine code coupled with (often) minimal support for food/drink being mandatory to survive in an MMO, even a D&D MMO.
Oc course, if you can get enough people to show interest (at minimum a majority most of the time,) then it could be developed into a future build if not yet implemented. But you'll see a lot of things that make sense in the imagination, are just a chore when you have to do it in a multiplayer environment, as well as what does not simply translate from the tabletop imagination to the unsupported computer/MMO gamer.
But by all means, if you find the support to push this through and make it a NON-GRIND or NON-BUY FOOD IN BULK (or anti-repeat fun task,) then get it through with my and many other role-player's blessings.
Odd that you think so... We already have mass consumables in many games that are tracked, and their effects on the game can be more diverse. Potions being the first thing that comes to mind, as do Healing Kits, Arrows, Bolts, etc.
It is not that hard to code as you are making it, it is more a case of do the programmers have the task to do it given to them by the management and developement staff. It can all be broken down to 0's and 1's, and done mathematically behind the scenes.
Seriously, I have played many a Hard Core PW on NWN1 and NWN2, and if weekend warrior coders can implement such things, surely professionals can, likely much easier, and with fewer bugs.
Reference your buying in bulk comment. Odd you bring that up, always one of my pet peeves with archers in CRPG. You have to carry a thousand arrows with you every time you decide to go adventure, because your arrow per melee round numbers increase beyond physical reality.
But that is another topic for another thread in another forum.
The problem with any intermittent bug, is isolation. Constant bugs are easier to isolate, as you can continually watch them, and see what happens when you make minor changes.
With Troubleshooting any problem, you should make a change, if it works great, if not, restore it to normal before making another change, and continue until you isolate the problem.
Lag complaints are difficult to bug, because they are intermittent, and often not noticeable in house. (Read: On the Corporate Lan behind the firewall) Additionally many are the fault of ISP's having too many IP's on a segment, poor network design, faulty DNS Servers, etc... When you have a ISP with a large footprint, it is possible for users from diverse areas of a country, who all use the same ISP, to experience problems at the same time, but because there are so many ISP's out there, the users, not the game owners, are unable to make the connection.
Add to this, that often times, a ISP is actually a wing of a larger ISP, and you can see the problem in isolating the problem to the ISP.
I don't buy that implementing food and drink rules would be difficult from a coding standpoint, either for a multiplayer or a single player game. But, then, I don't consider most coding tasks to be difficult....
However, I do agree with with the concern over grindy gameplay chores. But, I think food and drink could be implemented in such a way as to require meaningful gameplay decisions.
Odd that you think so... We already have mass consumables in many games that are tracked, and their effects on the game can be more diverse. Potions being the first thing that comes to mind, as do Healing Kits, Arrows, Bolts, etc.
It is not that hard to code as you are making it, it is more a case of do the programmers have the task to do it given to them by the management and developement staff. It can all be broken down to 0's and 1's, and done mathematically behind the scenes.
Seriously, I have played many a Hard Core PW on NWN1 and NWN2, and if weekend warrior coders can implement such things, surely professionals can, likely much easier, and with fewer bugs.
Reference your buying in bulk comment. Odd you bring that up, always one of my pet peeves with archers in CRPG. You have to carry a thousand arrows with you every time you decide to go adventure, because your arrow per melee round numbers increase beyond physical reality.
But that is another topic for another thread in another forum.
Personally don't like bulk buying but it's done and I now tolerate it. Being a NWN 1 player too, I can see food hardcore done, but supporting it in an MMO may work differently. Personally, I feel we should have the game track our food, but then if we're going all purist, we get into the "turn based" argument vs the "real time" argument and the "reality play support" of "MMO" vs (what I thought when they originally used the term here for) "Co-op". And I have yet to see a large-scale game support food and have infrastructure for thousands (to tens of thousands) do it with the players wanting it. But if they do, and it gets better than a clickfest (slightly worse than a bulkfest in food buying) then I would support it. But when this thing goes multi-server or massive players and (assuming) not 100% instanced, there are scalability issues that will come up.
But one thing I fear will be missing is that table feeling when we enter until we find groups. If they can support food without it feeling like a WoW/UO grind or make it feel like a lot of the NW1's did in the custom jobs, then they can do food if the community is for it.
Else it goes to the custom Foundry games most likely to be "voted" on as a module.
Personally don't like bulk buying but it's done and I now tolerate it. Being a NWN 1 player too, I can see food hardcore done, but supporting it in an MMO may work differently. Personally, I feel we should have the game track our food, but then if we're going all purist, we get into the "turn based" argument vs the "real time" argument and the "reality play support" of "MMO" vs (what I thought when they originally used the term here for) "Co-op". And I have yet to see a large-scale game support food and have infrastructure for thousands (to tens of thousands) do it with the players wanting it. But if they do, and it gets better than a clickfest (slightly worse than a bulkfest in food buying) then I would support it. But when this thing goes multi-server or massive players and (assuming) not 100% instanced, there are scalability issues that will come up.
But one thing I fear will be missing is that table feeling when we enter until we find groups. If they can support food without it feeling like a WoW/UO grind or make it feel like a lot of the NW1's did in the custom jobs, then they can do food if the community is for it.
Else it goes to the custom Foundry games most likely to be "voted" on as a module.
I would be happy with the way they did food in Eye Of The Beholder 1-3......A food bar that show green for not hungry, yellow can eat, red hungry, empty means cant rest to heal or ready spells. They even had a plate to put food on. hahahaha
Currently the game is undergoing a lot of iteration and tweaking, so the design is still pretty malleable. What would be most helpful is hearing from you guys about what would make for a good D&D MMO experience.
Obviously that's a very subjective question, but one of the most difficult things for developers to do when making a new game based on a well established IP is finding the true essence of what makes that IP so appealing. How can we make a video game that captures the best aspects of D&D without just being a carbon copy of it in digital form?
For me, D&D is mostly about the DM/player dynamic... It's like being told a story by a talented storyteller that you're actively taking part in. No video game has been able to quite capture that feeling IMO, but for me that's what draws me to D&D the most.
But how is that best translated into a modern MMO? That's the kind of debate we would like to see in the community
In the PnP game the DM really needs to know what his players want and are motivated by. What are the players goals. Then create a campaign with this in mind. This is very difficult for an mmo because many groups of players have different motivations and goals.
All i can really tell you is the goals and motivation i had and the players i played with had.
1. We wanted to adventure in a world on our own terms not down a linear path set for us. Thus a Campaign setting was best for us. The players were born and raised in the same area thus a City/Town/Village. An Inn that we drank ourselves silly in until we became of age was the start of our career as adventurer's. There would be a board on the wall with a variety of folks looking for adventurers. We would pick one and off we went. It was not always an Inn one memorable adventure started within an Acadamy of Arms and Magic. I think its important That once you pick your adventure once you come back some of the adventures are gone and there are new ones on the board. As a group of players become more advanced and renown more options open up for them for finding adventures. Such as a local Lord, Prominant Merchant, and eventually the Crown or a particular god or faction.
2. We wanted to make choices along the way. Sometimes they ended up being the wrong choice but that is what made it interesting for us. If we failed and had to retreat to rest up and start a new assault they would be fortified and much more alert along with new traps. Or in another instance they got away and we couldn't finish the adventure or it evolved into a much bigger deal. Ill elaborate on one bad choice that i remember well. We were hired by a local Baron to investigate a ruined keep/castle. Anyway we arrive to our destination and we see a beautiful woman in the middle of the courtyard. Sure enough four guys are all goo go eyed while myself and the only woman in our group are wary she sneaks behind and stays in the shadows while i remain on my light warhorse and wait some distance away. I said that i will find a safe place for the horses and pack mules while i really rode my horse to the flank of the Beautiful woman. That beautiful woman turned out to be an ogre mage and the 4 love struck adventureres were all bunched together for the ogre mages cone of cold which basically had them all screaming for the the near frozen clerics heals:D. I charged the Ogre with lance couched while the Thief put some well placed back stabs and backed away just as i got there.
3. We liked all types of dungeons above and below ground. The best are the ones that have most elements in them. Traps, secret doors,hack and slash, puzzles/riddles, Detective work, and using skills and your brain to overcome obstacles.
4. Our goals as adventurer's were for Glory, Renown, Wealth and most importantly a piece of ground we called our own. And finally a Legacy. Dependent on the campaign we either carved out of the wilderness our own holdings or were granted titles and lands from a king or queen. Once we all founded a holding usually a small castle, Temple, Wizard Tower, a dwarf warrior Found a Vein of Gold under a water fall and built a small Dwarf Hold with mine. At this point we would adventure or send one henchman each on an adventure have children once old enough would semi retire our main and another player would DM while we started a whole new campaign with new characters and new adventures.
I would be happy with the way they did food in Eye Of The Beholder 1-3......A food bar that show green for not hungry, yellow can eat, red hungry, empty means cant rest to heal or ready spells. They even had a plate to put food on. hahahaha
Wow, some of the games that I didn't own and didn't play for a long time (and I forgot about) did have the best food layout for D&D computer games.
You convinced me. If an MMO did the food bar I was thinking of (but in a literal "bar" or "tavern,) " it was almost this thing exactly. Mind you, I was thinking of bonuses/penalties, but could accept it as "mandatory" eating this way. (Since MMO games did show "you are just going to have things where eventually only going home to recover here will fully restore.")
However, (I'm not certain if STG did this the right way or not with musicians and "cantinas" and blanking on other MMO games for locations for full recoveries only at a home town or "town Portal" Diablo thing ATM,) would there be some other things that would be fair in D&D that could be done short of across the board -1 or other pentalties to all rolls/checks if people do not go back to food up, or is it simply starve and die checks per DMG?
In the PnP game the DM really needs to know what his players want and are motivated by. What are the players goals. Then create a campaign with this in mind. This is very difficult for an mmo because many groups of players have different motivations and goals.
All i can really tell you is the goals and motivation i had and the players i played with had.
1. We wanted to adventure in a world on our own terms not down a linear path set for us. Thus a Campaign setting was best for us. The players were born and raised in the same area thus a City/Town/Village. An Inn that we drank ourselves silly in until we became of age was the start of our career as adventurer's. There would be a board on the wall with a variety of folks looking for adventurers. We would pick one and off we went. It was not always an Inn one memorable adventure started within an Acadamy of Arms and Magic. I think its important That once you pick your adventure once you come back some of the adventures are gone and there are new ones on the board. As a group of players become more advanced and renown more options open up for them for finding adventures. Such as a local Lord, Prominant Merchant, and eventually the Crown or a particular god or faction.
2. We wanted to make choices along the way. Sometimes they ended up being the wrong choice but that is what made it interesting for us. If we failed and had to retreat to rest up and start a new assault they would be fortified and much more alert along with new traps. Or in another instance they got away and we couldn't finish the adventure or it evolved into a much bigger deal. Ill elaborate on one bad choice that i remember well. We were hired by a local Baron to investigate a ruined keep/castle. Anyway we arrive to our destination and we see a beautiful woman in the middle of the courtyard. Sure enough four guys are all goo go eyed while myself and the only woman in our group are wary she sneaks behind and stays in the shadows while i remain on my light warhorse and wait some distance away. I said that i will find a safe place for the horses and pack mules while i really rode my horse to the flank of the Beautiful woman. That beautiful woman turned out to be an ogre mage and the 4 love struck adventureres were all bunched together for the ogre mages cone of cold which basically had them all screaming for the the near frozen clerics heals:D. I charged the Ogre with lance couched while the Thief put some well placed back stabs and backed away just as i got there.
3. We liked all types of dungeons above and below ground. The best are the ones that have most elements in them. Traps, secret doors,hack and slash, puzzles/riddles, Detective work, and using skills and your brain to overcome obstacles.
4. Our goals as adventurer's were for Glory, Renown, Wealth and most importantly a piece of ground we called our own. And finally a Legacy. Dependent on the campaign we either carved out of the wilderness our own holdings or were granted titles and lands from a king or queen. Once we all founded a holding usually a small castle, Temple, Wizard Tower, a dwarf warrior Found a Vein of Gold under a water fall and built a small Dwarf Hold with mine. At this point we would adventure or send one henchman each on an adventure have children once old enough would semi retire our main and another player would DM while we started a whole new campaign with new characters and new adventures.
The last two posts were important enough and specific enough to have me double post myself. Well thought out examples and excellently described. I fully agree on these points and QFT also! I hope the developers include some (if not all) of what you illustrated here, if not literally then in the spirit of these ideas. Thank you!
In the PnP game the DM really needs to know what his players want and are motivated by. What are the players goals. Then create a campaign with this in mind. This is very difficult for an mmo because many groups of players have different motivations and goals.
All i can really tell you is the goals and motivation i had and the players i played with had.
1. We wanted to adventure in a world on our own terms not down a linear path set for us. Thus a Campaign setting was best for us. The players were born and raised in the same area thus a City/Town/Village. An Inn that we drank ourselves silly in until we became of age was the start of our career as adventurer's. There would be a board on the wall with a variety of folks looking for adventurers. We would pick one and off we went. It was not always an Inn one memorable adventure started within an Acadamy of Arms and Magic. I think its important That once you pick your adventure once you come back some of the adventures are gone and there are new ones on the board. As a group of players become more advanced and renown more options open up for them for finding adventures. Such as a local Lord, Prominant Merchant, and eventually the Crown or a particular god or faction.
2. We wanted to make choices along the way. Sometimes they ended up being the wrong choice but that is what made it interesting for us. If we failed and had to retreat to rest up and start a new assault they would be fortified and much more alert along with new traps. Or in another instance they got away and we couldn't finish the adventure or it evolved into a much bigger deal. Ill elaborate on one bad choice that i remember well. We were hired by a local Baron to investigate a ruined keep/castle. Anyway we arrive to our destination and we see a beautiful woman in the middle of the courtyard. Sure enough four guys are all goo go eyed while myself and the only woman in our group are wary she sneaks behind and stays in the shadows while i remain on my light warhorse and wait some distance away. I said that i will find a safe place for the horses and pack mules while i really rode my horse to the flank of the Beautiful woman. That beautiful woman turned out to be an ogre mage and the 4 love struck adventureres were all bunched together for the ogre mages cone of cold which basically had them all screaming for the the near frozen clerics heals:D. I charged the Ogre with lance couched while the Thief put some well placed back stabs and backed away just as i got there.
3. We liked all types of dungeons above and below ground. The best are the ones that have most elements in them. Traps, secret doors,hack and slash, puzzles/riddles, Detective work, and using skills and your brain to overcome obstacles.
4. Our goals as adventurer's were for Glory, Renown, Wealth and most importantly a piece of ground we called our own. And finally a Legacy. Dependent on the campaign we either carved out of the wilderness our own holdings or were granted titles and lands from a king or queen. Once we all founded a holding usually a small castle, Temple, Wizard Tower, a dwarf warrior Found a Vein of Gold under a water fall and built a small Dwarf Hold with mine. At this point we would adventure or send one henchman each on an adventure have children once old enough would semi retire our main and another player would DM while we started a whole new campaign with new characters and new adventures.
Well said! This really gets at the essence of what players like.
Wow, some of the games that I didn't own and didn't play for a long time (and I forgot about) did have the best food layout for D&D computer games.
You convinced me. If an MMO did the food bar I was thinking of (but in a literal "bar" or "tavern,) " it was almost this thing exactly. Mind you, I was thinking of bonuses/penalties, but could accept it as "mandatory" eating this way. (Since MMO games did show "you are just going to have things where eventually only going home to recover here will fully restore.")
However, (I'm not certain if STG did this the right way or not with musicians and "cantinas" and blanking on other MMO games for locations for full recoveries only at a home town or "town Portal" Diablo thing ATM,) would there be some other things that would be fair in D&D that could be done short of across the board -1 or other pentalties to all rolls/checks if people do not go back to food up, or is it simply starve and die checks per DMG?
I'm not sure there could be another way to apply a "starvation" penalty that would affect everyone equally besides the -1 across the board. Simply because with such a wide variety of character types if you target certain things first you effectively make certain classes not need it as often.
For example, if you specifically targeted str to simulate a weakened status from lack of food melee characters would feel the sting more that an arcane caster would. Yes the caster could carry less but what's a few pounds less gear compared to a -1 to-hit and dmg?
Now you might be able to break up the universal -1 into sub groups like stats, skills, move speed, etc and apply the -1 in stages. For example for 1day w/o food you get a move speed penalty, the 2nd you get a move speed and -1 to all skills and the 3rd you'd have the move speed and skill penalty but now you also have a -1 to all stats that would stack with the skill de-buff. Thoughts?
Wow, some of the games that I didn't own and didn't play for a long time (and I forgot about) did have the best food layout for D&D computer games.
You convinced me. If an MMO did the food bar I was thinking of (but in a literal "bar" or "tavern,) " it was almost this thing exactly. Mind you, I was thinking of bonuses/penalties, but could accept it as "mandatory" eating this way. (Since MMO games did show "you are just going to have things where eventually only going home to recover here will fully restore.")
I haven't played Eye of the Beholder (maybe I should?), so please correct me if I missed the point of your posts.
Eating at a bar or tavern should definitely be an option, and when in town, should probably be the "best" option. However, that shouldn't be the only way to eat. Food rations should definitely be purchasable, but should encumber characters as per PnP rules and should perhaps go bad after a certain amount of time. Also, what about foraging for food or cooking and eating monsters? (Do not eat the green slime....)
However, (I'm not certain if STG did this the right way or not with musicians and "cantinas" and blanking on other MMO games for locations for full recoveries only at a home town or "town Portal" Diablo thing ATM,) would there be some other things that would be fair in D&D that could be done short of across the board -1 or other pentalties to all rolls/checks if people do not go back to food up, or is it simply starve and die checks per DMG?
If the DMG calls for starve and die checks, that's what I'm in favor of. (Stacking) -1 penalties would be possible, but then would there be any practical (non-rp) reason why players shouldn't starve themselves until they failed an endurance check before eating a food ration to remove the penalties? Another option would be to not allow players to take an extended rest unless they had enough food, but that would be a slap in the face to the endurance skill.
I'm not sure there could be another way to apply a "starvation" penalty that would affect everyone equally besides the -1 across the board. Simply because with such a wide variety of character types if you target certain things first you effectively make certain classes not need it as often.
For example, if you specifically targeted str to simulate a weakened status from lack of food melee characters would feel the sting more that an arcane caster would. Yes the caster could carry less but what's a few pounds less gear compared to a -1 to-hit and dmg?
Now you might be able to break up the universal -1 into sub groups like stats, skills, move speed, etc and apply the -1 in stages. For example for 1day w/o food you get a move speed penalty, the 2nd you get a move speed and -1 to all skills and the 3rd you'd have the move speed and skill penalty but now you also have a -1 to all stats that would stack with the skill de-buff. Thoughts?
^^^Absolutely^^^ I could easily support this, especially if combined with a similar modifier for lack of Sleep. (Assuming water part of food that two, but could see a seperate for Water.)
I haven't played Eye of the Beholder (maybe I should?), so please correct me if I missed the point of your posts.
Eating at a bar or tavern should definitely be an option, and when in town, should probably be the "best" option. However, that shouldn't be the only way to eat. Food rations should definitely be purchasable, but should encumber characters as per PnP rules and should perhaps go bad after a certain amount of time. Also, what about foraging for food or cooking and eating monsters? (Do not eat the green slime....)
If the DMG calls for starve and die checks, that's what I'm in favor of. (Stacking) -1 penalties would be possible, but then would there be any practical (non-rp) reason why players shouldn't starve themselves until they failed an endurance check before eating a food ration to remove the penalties? Another option would be to not allow players to take an extended rest unless they had enough food, but that would be a slap in the face to the endurance skill.
^^^Absolutely^^^ I could easily support this, especially if combined with a similar modifier for lack of Sleep. (Assuming water part of food that two, but could see a seperate for Water.)
The summary version:
Starvation, Thirst and Suffocation
When deprived of food, water, or air, the rule of three applies. An adventurer can handle three weeks without food, three days without water, and three minutes without air outside of strenuous situations.
After that, such deprivation is a significant test of a PCs’ stamina. At the end of the time period (three weeks, three days, or three minutes), the character must succeed on a DC 20 Endurance check.
Success buys the character another day (if hungry or thirsty), or round (if unable to breathe). Then the check is repeated at DC 25, then at DC 30, and so on. When a character fails the check, he loses one healing surge and must continue to make checks. A character without healing surges who fails a check takes damage equal to his level.
In strenuous situations, such as combat, going without air is much harder. A character holding his breath during underwater combat, for example, must make a DC 20 Endurance check at the end of his turn in a round where he takes damage.
As with environmental dangers, a character cannot regain healing surges lost to starvation, thirst, or suffocation until he eats a meal, drinks, or gains access to air again, respectively.
A character with 0 or fewer hit points who continues to suffer from one of these effects keeps taking damage as described above until he dies or is rescued.
And this is what I'm trying to consider how. Making it so you have to return outside of "encounter areas" to somewhere "safer" (such as a town or non-combat zone where you could forage for example.)
This needs to be done to support the "follow the rules as closely as possible" credo.
While this works well in (non-computer RL) tabletop sessions, if can penalize in computer games. Would the wizard MMO player be punished because the warrior MMO player egged them on to start their group without enough rations and the warrior just breezes through their warrior endurance checks while the wizard does not?
Then we have to start tracking separate food AND water, and "rations" no longer fit the bill, unless we "house rule" thirst timers as the check for hunger and thirst (three days as we're certainly not allowing three weeks as the baseline.) If not done from three days, how do we start counting ways to carry water without water-skins, which carry more than one day of water in the first place and its weight would be changed from the book?
Trying to keep it balanced for online game MMO play (and these things that happen in MMO and not RL players sitting around with no RL time limit) while closely following the rules (from tabletop) as closely as possible is the goal.
If this is not doable, then do we "substitute" the "death penalty" -1 to all checks and attacks/saves instead as a substitute, or is this not doable without making it (or some other way) a huge pain for players to track making "realism" too much of a burden for fun?
That's the issue I'm seeing with making "tracking rations for survival" such a difficulty ATM.
And this is what I'm trying to consider how. Making it so you have to return outside of "encounter areas" to somewhere "safer" (such as a town or non-combat zone where you could forage for example.)
This needs to be done to support the "follow the rules as closely as possible" credo.
While this works well in (non-computer RL) tabletop sessions, if can penalize in computer games. Would the wizard MMO player be punished because the warrior MMO player egged them on to start their group without enough rations and the warrior just breezes through their warrior endurance checks while the wizard does not?
Then we have to start tracking separate food AND water, and "rations" no longer fit the bill, unless we "house rule" thirst timers as the check for hunger and thirst (three days as we're certainly not allowing three weeks as the baseline.) If not done from three days, how do we start counting ways to carry water without water-skins, which carry more than one day of water in the first place and its weight would be changed from the book?
Trying to keep it balanced for online game MMO play (and these things that happen in MMO and not RL players sitting around with no RL time limit) while closely following the rules (from tabletop) as closely as possible is the goal.
If this is not doable, then do we "substitute" the "death penalty" -1 to all checks and attacks/saves instead as a substitute, or is this not doable without making it (or some other way) a huge pain for players to track making "realism" too much of a burden for fun?
That's the issue I'm seeing with making "tracking rations for survival" such a difficulty ATM.
Thanks for the info. Nice to see that they have rules for the deadly effects of no food, water or air. These however, do not account for the lesser effects of going hungry or thirsty for shorter time periods, on performance.
I see it as an easier solution than you do. I could see going without food for three days starting to give negative modifiers to actions. Water should give negatives after a single day. A -1 per time period, cumulative, to all Attacks, saves and skills would be more than sufficient, and reasonable.
I can think of a couple solutions to the food/water problem, that they had in the Original AD&D, it was a Clerical Spell called Create Food and Water.
They also had a means for Rangers, Druids and Barbarians to scavenge for these when in wilderness areas.
The tracking rations for survival aspect is not that difficult in a CRPG. A Simple Bar that shows how many days of food/water you have, and next to it, one showing when you should eat/drink, just like the Mana/Health/etc bars in many games already.
Yes, a water skin holds a days supply of water, but water is the easiest of the two to get access too. Heck, besides finding it in streams, lakes, etc, you can always have any spell caster cast a spell that would create more than enough for the party. You just refill at every oportunity. I have played in NWN PW's that relied on food and water, and getting water skins refilled was relatively easy. Food on the other hand, was often difficult to get, if you didn't bring enough. In those worlds, no food/water = no rest. Hard to get rejuvenating sleep when you are hungry and thirsty.
Wizards and non-Fighters, are usually just as likely to have a decent Constitution as a Fighter, since Fighters are usually either Strength or Dexterity focussed, and Constitution bonuses to Hit Points are not as needed for them as for a weakly Wizard. Serisouly, a +2 Con mod for a fighter is a 20% bonus, a +2 for a Wizard is a 50% bonus, and for a Rogue is a 33% bonus. Thus Wizards and Rogues get a better ROI for the points spent on Con than a fighter. A Fighter will always have more Hit Points than a Wizard or Rogue, regardless of Constitution, and usually a better Armor Class too.
Thanks for the info. Nice to see that they have rules for the deadly effects of no food, water or air. These however, do not account for the lesser effects of going hungry or thirsty for shorter time periods, on performance.
I see it as an easier solution than you do. I could see going without food for three days starting to give negative modifiers to actions. Water should give negatives after a single day. A -1 per time period, cumulative, to all Attacks, saves and skills would be more than sufficient, and reasonable.
I can think of a couple solutions to the food/water problem, that they had in the Original AD&D, it was a Clerical Spell called Create Food and Water.
They also had a means for Rangers, Druids and Barbarians to scavenge for these when in wilderness areas.
The tracking rations for survival aspect is not that difficult in a CRPG. A Simple Bar that shows how many days of food/water you have, and next to it, one showing when you should eat/drink, just like the Mana/Health/etc bars in many games already.
Yes, a water skin holds a days supply of water, but water is the easiest of the two to get access too. Heck, besides finding it in streams, lakes, etc, you can always have any spell caster cast a spell that would create more than enough for the party. You just refill at every oportunity. I have played in NWN PW's that relied on food and water, and getting water skins refilled was relatively easy. Food on the other hand, was often difficult to get, if you didn't bring enough. In those worlds, no food/water = no rest. Hard to get rejuvenating sleep when you are hungry and thirsty.
Wizards and non-Fighters, are usually just as likely to have a decent Constitution as a Fighter, since Fighters are usually either Strength or Dexterity focussed, and Constitution bonuses to Hit Points are not as needed for them as for a weakly Wizard. Serisouly, a +2 Con mod for a fighter is a 20% bonus, a +2 for a Wizard is a 50% bonus, and for a Rogue is a 33% bonus. Thus Wizards and Rogues get a better ROI for the points spent on Con than a fighter. A Fighter will always have more Hit Points than a Wizard or Rogue, regardless of Constitution, and usually a better Armor Class too.
These are great options, the problem is (besides foraging which is a 4E Nature skill check DC 15 for 1 person 25 for 5 people) being as close to the 4E rules as possible which is the core mantra of Cryptic for this game.
Breaking with 4E for 2E solutions flies in the face of core rules. But as I posted before, where can we recognize the core mechanics and translate them into a MMO environment?
But I guess we'll see what is soon announced for the "changes" in the game in a couple of weeks if the Developer estimated time for more news was accurate. Maybe this food/drink issue will be mentioned there with their solution.
I guess to faithfully implement the PnP rules for hunger, travel time would have to be included in the game as well (e.g. as per Baldur's Gate 2). Also, it requires some forethought to enable "creative" solutions to provisioning, but some of the more obvious ones should be possible (such as to fill a large, watertight container and keep it on a permanent floating disk).
I guess to faithfully implement the PnP rules for hunger, travel time would have to be included in the game as well (e.g. as per Baldur's Gate 2). Also, it requires some forethought to enable "creative" solutions to provisioning, but some of the more obvious ones should be possible (such as to fill a large, watertight container and keep it on a permanent floating disk).
Agreed. Even if this were not done immediately, I think it could work down the line.
What would be most helpful is hearing from you guys about what would make for a good D&D MMO experience.
It has to have this open-world feel to it. Something that's not directed by quests, but rather have quests be designed as encounters with diverse endings that you find yourself stumbling on as you explore the world. (Think of Marl at Feldepost Inn in Baldur's Gate 1 as an example.)
Designing memorable NPCs
Skyrim modding community came up with this idea where players can create themselves as NPCs. But they have no quality control. Some NPCs are weak compared to others, there's a lot of overlap, grammatical errors and other problems.
If the development team did something similar here and served as the filter/quality control, I'm sure the world would feel much richer.
The process should obviously be very honed to avoid spoilers pre-release. Something like an one-way form that asks the dialogue options in several stages and the possible outcomes.
Currently the game is undergoing a lot of iteration and tweaking, so the design is still pretty malleable. What would be most helpful is hearing from you guys about what would make for a good D&D MMO experience.
Obviously that's a very subjective question, but one of the most difficult things for developers to do when making a new game based on a well established IP is finding the true essence of what makes that IP so appealing. How can we make a video game that captures the best aspects of D&D without just being a carbon copy of it in digital form?
For me, D&D is mostly about the DM/player dynamic... It's like being told a story by a talented storyteller that you're actively taking part in. No video game has been able to quite capture that feeling IMO, but for me that's what draws me to D&D the most.
But how is that best translated into a modern MMO? That's the kind of debate we would like to see in the community
One of the best aspects of D&D is being exactly what you want to be. Everyone has a very specific idea of what their character is like: looks, style, speech, habits, etc and they get to be exactly as they imagine themselves. While I know this will never be fully accomplished in a video game, I think customization is very important. And customization that you can see. Sure, there may only be X types of armor, but in each armor set you need to have lots of different looks so players can choose the one that best represents their character. The same should be done with weapons, and all the other equip-able items. The more we can customize our character and make them our own the better. If we get a slot for boots and gloves, I would love to see my characters boots and gloves change design between different ones. I would love to have swords that (either chosen or predetermined) are sheathed on different places of my body (and please, please, lets let them have visible sheaths).
I would love to see a decent character creater that had more than just change "color of X", and cycle through 5 options each for your head, hair, and eyes. For me, an important aspect of D&D is that ability to imagine a character and then bring them to "life".
Comments
That's a tricky one, I think. It comes down to figuring out how to make a good looking game that can run on the most number of machines. As mentioned in another thread, not everyone has super high end gaming machines that can take playing an MMO on the highest settings. Maybe if the difference between low and Ultra (or whatever the highest is) is larger...? But not being a developer I'm not sure how hard that is.
Other than that, most lag is Network lag not server lag. If it's server lag, everyone is gonna be screwed and whinging about it (I've only just started playing DDO so I've not been in any high pop areas where lag may occur- don't kill me!). But Server lag usually gets cleared up pretty quick, considering it buggers everyone.
Yes there many different kinds of lagg many times it is the computers problem but the lagg i mean is server lagg. DDO has suffered this and most games eventually fix this problem but DDO has let it slide. Sure it can be connection problems that you usauly can detect via the ping command, it can be you pc etc etc but sometimes it is server side.
For example in subterrane in /loc i2049 to i2052 we often have lag that gets entire 12 man parties wiped lately. Heh is funny when whole parties can't move are floating in air etc etc lol
Yet the same pc can play other mmo's with far more people on screen and no lagg. You can see this in shroud when the chest are generating loot, this lagg im talking about.
The higher pc requirements lagg more than usually can be resolved by lowering the games graphics settings.
To me I see Turbine's inability to fix lag a testament to their incompetency. I mean come on, years and years this game has been out and still no fix to a problem that I'm guessing has been around since launch? Srsly Turbine?
Not to mention apparently, if it is believable since a guy in Shroud said this, there is no lag in DDO according to the Dev's... they said so and any lag issues is a result of the user end not on their end. Even though myself and many other can have no lag with much higher quality MMOs that make DDO look retro a couple times over. But nooo according to Turbine it's all on our end though and not theirs at all.
Generally though, if you're seeing lag, turn down the game settings, check your internet connection, minimize the downloading done on your connection, make sure you're running the right version of flash and direct X... The number of possible solutions is really... really... varied.
It sucks but imho unless it's severe and persistent, lag isn't something that concerns me.
For those of you following along at home:
NetTest
Graphical Lag
Network Lag
Vin do enough raids and you will see and suffer lagg in ddo anyone that says they don't ever have lagg isn't being honest.
Turbine even has told us they have a possible lagg fix in the next patch but no promises. I understand that some my be skeptical so look here, comment by DDO staff:
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4364481&postcount=22
it's from this thread http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=365315
What im talking about isn't network lag graphical lagg etc ive done tracert pings etc etc amongst other dos commands and the issue is server lagg.
I've played Perfect world back before the International client (was on english MY servers i believe) and even then didn't have lagg like i see in ddo, only lagg i had was my pc and it was graphical lagg as my pc was junk back then.
Good thing it will be on PWE's servers and not Turbine's!
Currently, DDO uses instance based areas. These instances are layered on the server so that they all occupy the same space but the individual player can only see/access his specific zone. One major source of "server lag" is when several instances of a dungeon get overlaid on top of each other. This is much more common with popular quests (such as Shroud) hence more visable.
The fix might be to use more of the available server space instead of dog piling these into their assigned zone but I just guessing on that one.
And having played all the D&D computer AND MMO games, I have yet to see one D&D computer game enforce food/drink (besides Dark Sun which does so limitedly. You use water flasks, can cook a vulture, get food traded (not eaten) like grain and fruit=potions, but that's it.) Even (the video game) Icewindale used rations to reduce (not cure) fatigue only. And what if you have rations but no "water skin" in a computer game? How much water is that, and when does thirst start compared to hunger since it happens a lot faster than starvation? You'll soon find out figuring this out is a ridiculous coding nightmare and that's for single player games, not multi-player!
Coding wise, it doesn't (yet) logisticly work once you go multiplayer to track such things.
It's not like you do on paper or Dark Tower (feeling retro) where you simply update somkething on a sheet (or a pegboard.) There are multiple tracking conditions for food, drink and inebriation. The latter (alcohol) can be done when you have a straight positive ansd negative "effects" buff/debuff. But having hunger AND thirst AND endurance checks AND saving throws (potentially but really Death ST,) and some/all/none of these tracking have to be reset if one eats AND/OR drinks (water,) is a coding MAJOR PITA (That's Pain in the Assuming you can guess the last word without it censoring me.)
As a player of all things D&D and MMO (before these games were even MMO, like MUD and other acronyms that aren't even kept in Wikkis anymore,) I've seen what the technology can do and can't do. But more importantly, I've seen what the D&D computer gamer's world and MMO ONLINE PLAYERS want and don't want.
Respectfully, our gaming development technology isn't easy of programming enough to make it simple to "buy food and drink to stay well." Even when developmentally focused upon, it does not have the D&D computer gaming support. Again, let me stress this is for D&D computer gaming support, including this kind of thing asked about and refused in DDO (for both coding and non-support by customers.)
If you have the tech but not support it's an "easy" add, maybe even a hardcore option. If you have the support but the tech isn't easy, it will be worked on developing because of the demand for "popular realism over simplicity." But what we have here is tech/development engine code coupled with (often) minimal support for food/drink being mandatory to survive in an MMO, even a D&D MMO.
Oc course, if you can get enough people to show interest (at minimum a majority most of the time,) then it could be developed into a future build if not yet implemented. But you'll see a lot of things that make sense in the imagination, are just a chore when you have to do it in a multiplayer environment, as well as what does not simply translate from the tabletop imagination to the unsupported computer/MMO gamer.
But by all means, if you find the support to push this through and make it a NON-GRIND or NON-BUY FOOD IN BULK (or anti-repeat fun task,) then get it through with my and many other role-player's blessings.
Odd that you think so... We already have mass consumables in many games that are tracked, and their effects on the game can be more diverse. Potions being the first thing that comes to mind, as do Healing Kits, Arrows, Bolts, etc.
It is not that hard to code as you are making it, it is more a case of do the programmers have the task to do it given to them by the management and developement staff. It can all be broken down to 0's and 1's, and done mathematically behind the scenes.
Seriously, I have played many a Hard Core PW on NWN1 and NWN2, and if weekend warrior coders can implement such things, surely professionals can, likely much easier, and with fewer bugs.
Reference your buying in bulk comment. Odd you bring that up, always one of my pet peeves with archers in CRPG. You have to carry a thousand arrows with you every time you decide to go adventure, because your arrow per melee round numbers increase beyond physical reality.
But that is another topic for another thread in another forum.
The problem with any intermittent bug, is isolation. Constant bugs are easier to isolate, as you can continually watch them, and see what happens when you make minor changes.
With Troubleshooting any problem, you should make a change, if it works great, if not, restore it to normal before making another change, and continue until you isolate the problem.
Lag complaints are difficult to bug, because they are intermittent, and often not noticeable in house. (Read: On the Corporate Lan behind the firewall) Additionally many are the fault of ISP's having too many IP's on a segment, poor network design, faulty DNS Servers, etc... When you have a ISP with a large footprint, it is possible for users from diverse areas of a country, who all use the same ISP, to experience problems at the same time, but because there are so many ISP's out there, the users, not the game owners, are unable to make the connection.
Add to this, that often times, a ISP is actually a wing of a larger ISP, and you can see the problem in isolating the problem to the ISP.
However, I do agree with with the concern over grindy gameplay chores. But, I think food and drink could be implemented in such a way as to require meaningful gameplay decisions.
Personally don't like bulk buying but it's done and I now tolerate it. Being a NWN 1 player too, I can see food hardcore done, but supporting it in an MMO may work differently. Personally, I feel we should have the game track our food, but then if we're going all purist, we get into the "turn based" argument vs the "real time" argument and the "reality play support" of "MMO" vs (what I thought when they originally used the term here for) "Co-op". And I have yet to see a large-scale game support food and have infrastructure for thousands (to tens of thousands) do it with the players wanting it. But if they do, and it gets better than a clickfest (slightly worse than a bulkfest in food buying) then I would support it. But when this thing goes multi-server or massive players and (assuming) not 100% instanced, there are scalability issues that will come up.
But one thing I fear will be missing is that table feeling when we enter until we find groups. If they can support food without it feeling like a WoW/UO grind or make it feel like a lot of the NW1's did in the custom jobs, then they can do food if the community is for it.
Else it goes to the custom Foundry games most likely to be "voted" on as a module.
I would be happy with the way they did food in Eye Of The Beholder 1-3......A food bar that show green for not hungry, yellow can eat, red hungry, empty means cant rest to heal or ready spells. They even had a plate to put food on. hahahaha
In the PnP game the DM really needs to know what his players want and are motivated by. What are the players goals. Then create a campaign with this in mind. This is very difficult for an mmo because many groups of players have different motivations and goals.
All i can really tell you is the goals and motivation i had and the players i played with had.
1. We wanted to adventure in a world on our own terms not down a linear path set for us. Thus a Campaign setting was best for us. The players were born and raised in the same area thus a City/Town/Village. An Inn that we drank ourselves silly in until we became of age was the start of our career as adventurer's. There would be a board on the wall with a variety of folks looking for adventurers. We would pick one and off we went. It was not always an Inn one memorable adventure started within an Acadamy of Arms and Magic. I think its important That once you pick your adventure once you come back some of the adventures are gone and there are new ones on the board. As a group of players become more advanced and renown more options open up for them for finding adventures. Such as a local Lord, Prominant Merchant, and eventually the Crown or a particular god or faction.
2. We wanted to make choices along the way. Sometimes they ended up being the wrong choice but that is what made it interesting for us. If we failed and had to retreat to rest up and start a new assault they would be fortified and much more alert along with new traps. Or in another instance they got away and we couldn't finish the adventure or it evolved into a much bigger deal. Ill elaborate on one bad choice that i remember well. We were hired by a local Baron to investigate a ruined keep/castle. Anyway we arrive to our destination and we see a beautiful woman in the middle of the courtyard. Sure enough four guys are all goo go eyed while myself and the only woman in our group are wary she sneaks behind and stays in the shadows while i remain on my light warhorse and wait some distance away. I said that i will find a safe place for the horses and pack mules while i really rode my horse to the flank of the Beautiful woman. That beautiful woman turned out to be an ogre mage and the 4 love struck adventureres were all bunched together for the ogre mages cone of cold which basically had them all screaming for the the near frozen clerics heals:D. I charged the Ogre with lance couched while the Thief put some well placed back stabs and backed away just as i got there.
3. We liked all types of dungeons above and below ground. The best are the ones that have most elements in them. Traps, secret doors,hack and slash, puzzles/riddles, Detective work, and using skills and your brain to overcome obstacles.
4. Our goals as adventurer's were for Glory, Renown, Wealth and most importantly a piece of ground we called our own. And finally a Legacy. Dependent on the campaign we either carved out of the wilderness our own holdings or were granted titles and lands from a king or queen. Once we all founded a holding usually a small castle, Temple, Wizard Tower, a dwarf warrior Found a Vein of Gold under a water fall and built a small Dwarf Hold with mine. At this point we would adventure or send one henchman each on an adventure have children once old enough would semi retire our main and another player would DM while we started a whole new campaign with new characters and new adventures.
Wow, some of the games that I didn't own and didn't play for a long time (and I forgot about) did have the best food layout for D&D computer games.
You convinced me. If an MMO did the food bar I was thinking of (but in a literal "bar" or "tavern,) " it was almost this thing exactly. Mind you, I was thinking of bonuses/penalties, but could accept it as "mandatory" eating this way. (Since MMO games did show "you are just going to have things where eventually only going home to recover here will fully restore.")
However, (I'm not certain if STG did this the right way or not with musicians and "cantinas" and blanking on other MMO games for locations for full recoveries only at a home town or "town Portal" Diablo thing ATM,) would there be some other things that would be fair in D&D that could be done short of across the board -1 or other pentalties to all rolls/checks if people do not go back to food up, or is it simply starve and die checks per DMG?
The last two posts were important enough and specific enough to have me double post myself. Well thought out examples and excellently described. I fully agree on these points and QFT also! I hope the developers include some (if not all) of what you illustrated here, if not literally then in the spirit of these ideas. Thank you!
Well said! This really gets at the essence of what players like.
I'm not sure there could be another way to apply a "starvation" penalty that would affect everyone equally besides the -1 across the board. Simply because with such a wide variety of character types if you target certain things first you effectively make certain classes not need it as often.
For example, if you specifically targeted str to simulate a weakened status from lack of food melee characters would feel the sting more that an arcane caster would. Yes the caster could carry less but what's a few pounds less gear compared to a -1 to-hit and dmg?
Now you might be able to break up the universal -1 into sub groups like stats, skills, move speed, etc and apply the -1 in stages. For example for 1day w/o food you get a move speed penalty, the 2nd you get a move speed and -1 to all skills and the 3rd you'd have the move speed and skill penalty but now you also have a -1 to all stats that would stack with the skill de-buff. Thoughts?
I haven't played Eye of the Beholder (maybe I should?), so please correct me if I missed the point of your posts.
Eating at a bar or tavern should definitely be an option, and when in town, should probably be the "best" option. However, that shouldn't be the only way to eat. Food rations should definitely be purchasable, but should encumber characters as per PnP rules and should perhaps go bad after a certain amount of time. Also, what about foraging for food or cooking and eating monsters? (Do not eat the green slime....)
If the DMG calls for starve and die checks, that's what I'm in favor of. (Stacking) -1 penalties would be possible, but then would there be any practical (non-rp) reason why players shouldn't starve themselves until they failed an endurance check before eating a food ration to remove the penalties? Another option would be to not allow players to take an extended rest unless they had enough food, but that would be a slap in the face to the endurance skill.
^^^Absolutely^^^ I could easily support this, especially if combined with a similar modifier for lack of Sleep. (Assuming water part of food that two, but could see a seperate for Water.)
The summary version:
And this is what I'm trying to consider how. Making it so you have to return outside of "encounter areas" to somewhere "safer" (such as a town or non-combat zone where you could forage for example.)
This needs to be done to support the "follow the rules as closely as possible" credo.
While this works well in (non-computer RL) tabletop sessions, if can penalize in computer games. Would the wizard MMO player be punished because the warrior MMO player egged them on to start their group without enough rations and the warrior just breezes through their warrior endurance checks while the wizard does not?
Then we have to start tracking separate food AND water, and "rations" no longer fit the bill, unless we "house rule" thirst timers as the check for hunger and thirst (three days as we're certainly not allowing three weeks as the baseline.) If not done from three days, how do we start counting ways to carry water without water-skins, which carry more than one day of water in the first place and its weight would be changed from the book?
Trying to keep it balanced for online game MMO play (and these things that happen in MMO and not RL players sitting around with no RL time limit) while closely following the rules (from tabletop) as closely as possible is the goal.
If this is not doable, then do we "substitute" the "death penalty" -1 to all checks and attacks/saves instead as a substitute, or is this not doable without making it (or some other way) a huge pain for players to track making "realism" too much of a burden for fun?
That's the issue I'm seeing with making "tracking rations for survival" such a difficulty ATM.
Thanks for the info. Nice to see that they have rules for the deadly effects of no food, water or air. These however, do not account for the lesser effects of going hungry or thirsty for shorter time periods, on performance.
I see it as an easier solution than you do. I could see going without food for three days starting to give negative modifiers to actions. Water should give negatives after a single day. A -1 per time period, cumulative, to all Attacks, saves and skills would be more than sufficient, and reasonable.
I can think of a couple solutions to the food/water problem, that they had in the Original AD&D, it was a Clerical Spell called Create Food and Water.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Create_Food_and_Water
They also had a means for Rangers, Druids and Barbarians to scavenge for these when in wilderness areas.
The tracking rations for survival aspect is not that difficult in a CRPG. A Simple Bar that shows how many days of food/water you have, and next to it, one showing when you should eat/drink, just like the Mana/Health/etc bars in many games already.
Yes, a water skin holds a days supply of water, but water is the easiest of the two to get access too. Heck, besides finding it in streams, lakes, etc, you can always have any spell caster cast a spell that would create more than enough for the party. You just refill at every oportunity. I have played in NWN PW's that relied on food and water, and getting water skins refilled was relatively easy. Food on the other hand, was often difficult to get, if you didn't bring enough. In those worlds, no food/water = no rest. Hard to get rejuvenating sleep when you are hungry and thirsty.
Wizards and non-Fighters, are usually just as likely to have a decent Constitution as a Fighter, since Fighters are usually either Strength or Dexterity focussed, and Constitution bonuses to Hit Points are not as needed for them as for a weakly Wizard. Serisouly, a +2 Con mod for a fighter is a 20% bonus, a +2 for a Wizard is a 50% bonus, and for a Rogue is a 33% bonus. Thus Wizards and Rogues get a better ROI for the points spent on Con than a fighter. A Fighter will always have more Hit Points than a Wizard or Rogue, regardless of Constitution, and usually a better Armor Class too.
These are great options, the problem is (besides foraging which is a 4E Nature skill check DC 15 for 1 person 25 for 5 people) being as close to the 4E rules as possible which is the core mantra of Cryptic for this game.
Breaking with 4E for 2E solutions flies in the face of core rules. But as I posted before, where can we recognize the core mechanics and translate them into a MMO environment?
But I guess we'll see what is soon announced for the "changes" in the game in a couple of weeks if the Developer estimated time for more news was accurate. Maybe this food/drink issue will be mentioned there with their solution.
Agreed. Even if this were not done immediately, I think it could work down the line.
Designing memorable NPCs
Skyrim modding community came up with this idea where players can create themselves as NPCs. But they have no quality control. Some NPCs are weak compared to others, there's a lot of overlap, grammatical errors and other problems.
If the development team did something similar here and served as the filter/quality control, I'm sure the world would feel much richer.
The process should obviously be very honed to avoid spoilers pre-release. Something like an one-way form that asks the dialogue options in several stages and the possible outcomes.
Soooo glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read that!
(Typed out like the old old old version of the game)
Y-O-U S-H-O-T T-H-E T-R-O-L-L W-I-T-H T-H-E -F-L-A-M-E A-R-R-O-W-S R-I-G-H-T B-E-T-W-E-E-N T-H-E E-Y-E-S!
One of the best aspects of D&D is being exactly what you want to be. Everyone has a very specific idea of what their character is like: looks, style, speech, habits, etc and they get to be exactly as they imagine themselves. While I know this will never be fully accomplished in a video game, I think customization is very important. And customization that you can see. Sure, there may only be X types of armor, but in each armor set you need to have lots of different looks so players can choose the one that best represents their character. The same should be done with weapons, and all the other equip-able items. The more we can customize our character and make them our own the better. If we get a slot for boots and gloves, I would love to see my characters boots and gloves change design between different ones. I would love to have swords that (either chosen or predetermined) are sheathed on different places of my body (and please, please, lets let them have visible sheaths).
I would love to see a decent character creater that had more than just change "color of X", and cycle through 5 options each for your head, hair, and eyes. For me, an important aspect of D&D is that ability to imagine a character and then bring them to "life".