test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
To The Developers: Anything we can do to help you along?
Archived Post
Member Posts: 5,050,278 Bounty Hunter
To the developers of Neverwinter:
By now, it's been clear due to the shift in ownership and the change in game from "Co-op" to "MMORPG," the game's release date has been moved to the end of 2012.
What's not clear is if there is anything we the members can do to help you along? Whether it's here or elsewhere, many of us are loyal fans of the D&D game and its mythology, and the community it spawns. If there is something we can do to help you along, let us know.
Now, while I have no control on reply restrictions, I am asking any forum people posting to keep it civil (please no trolling/flaming/anti game/company posting here. If you want to do that, you can make your own thread and see if you can get replies on that.) On that note, to encourge dialouge, please don't rip on other companies, games or people here also. (The last thing I want is this to become a locked thread when this had nothing to do with that. Again, if you have to do that, you can make a thread for that.)
While I understand if this goes to some other tangent and if that mentions negative things, if may, but keep it civil if you must go down that path and please try to keep on this topic's point of us helping out.
But any ideas and suggestions on community support from other members are indeed welcome, as are of course dev feedback replies to this and other responses ending up here.
Thanks.
By now, it's been clear due to the shift in ownership and the change in game from "Co-op" to "MMORPG," the game's release date has been moved to the end of 2012.
What's not clear is if there is anything we the members can do to help you along? Whether it's here or elsewhere, many of us are loyal fans of the D&D game and its mythology, and the community it spawns. If there is something we can do to help you along, let us know.
Now, while I have no control on reply restrictions, I am asking any forum people posting to keep it civil (please no trolling/flaming/anti game/company posting here. If you want to do that, you can make your own thread and see if you can get replies on that.) On that note, to encourge dialouge, please don't rip on other companies, games or people here also. (The last thing I want is this to become a locked thread when this had nothing to do with that. Again, if you have to do that, you can make a thread for that.)
While I understand if this goes to some other tangent and if that mentions negative things, if may, but keep it civil if you must go down that path and please try to keep on this topic's point of us helping out.
But any ideas and suggestions on community support from other members are indeed welcome, as are of course dev feedback replies to this and other responses ending up here.
Thanks.
Post edited by Archived Post on
0
Comments
Obviously that's a very subjective question, but one of the most difficult things for developers to do when making a new game based on a well established IP is finding the true essence of what makes that IP so appealing. How can we make a video game that captures the best aspects of D&D without just being a carbon copy of it in digital form?
For me, D&D is mostly about the DM/player dynamic... It's like being told a story by a talented storyteller that you're actively taking part in. No video game has been able to quite capture that feeling IMO, but for me that's what draws me to D&D the most.
But how is that best translated into a modern MMO? That's the kind of debate we would like to see in the community
They try sound with background and mood music, but that actually masks the sounds....
They have problems with the others, and unfortunately, that is what good GM's/Storytellers add to a PnP game.
So, how do you address this?
Well, for one, sound can be added with a successful graded listen check. Roll against a:
DC 15, you hear the loudest sound, say sound of running water in a nearby stream.
DC 20, you hear the sound of footsteps in that running water. This gives you a Intelligence check at DC 15 to determine the size and number in the group moving in the water.
DC 25, the sound of the whispered voices of the group walking through the running water. This give each character making this Listen Check a DC 15 Intelligence check to detemine not only the size and number of the group, but also their race. If the player speaks the language of the group, they can know their intent too.
The computer makes these checks hidden, and each player would get a specialize message of what they hear, along with the actual sounds.
Smell - More descriptive explanations of smells, that are clues to what is to come. And the means to detect them... For instance, the smell of pipe tobacco giving a character a chance to actively spot/listen for an impending ambush. The smell of roasting meat, telling you of a camp nearby. The smell of rotting flesh, telling you that something had died nearby, and there might be more threats in the area, etc.
Taste - Closely associated with smell, this is more subtle, and you can often taste things in the air your nose does not notice. Let alone tasting things in the water that could provide valuable clues with a successful Intelligence, Survival or Lore check.
Finally, Touch - This is a difficult one to portray, but is best used for finding secret compartments in furniture/chests, as well as secret textures in walls, doors, bas relief, etc that can give clues to the party. Heck, a parchment could have raised watermarks what are unseen to the naked eye, but the fingers could traced them out by feel.
Even if you mostly ignored the last three, adding accurate sound to the game, instead of background cover music, would be a huge addition that I know many would greatly appreciate. Especially if the latent background is birds, crickets, wind in the trees, dripping water in caves, etc... and these additional sounds only appear to the individual when they roll the appropriate Listen Check to hear them.
Hell, this is something that can easily be done without adding any cost to the budget. I'm sure there are tons of DM's on these boards, myself included *hint, hint* that would be willing to do it in exchange for a simple "this dungeon narrated by <player name>" message on entry. You could even use it as a reward in a contest some times for highly anticipated releases as a way to get the community involved.
The Imagination
How to create a sense mystery?
How to generate suspense?
How to make a space come alive?
How to establish 'sense of place'?
Social Engagement
How to generate immediate and
intermediate decision-making?
How to balance independence vs. group-dynamic?
How to encourage problem-solving?
Economy
I suggest sticking to the DnD loot
tables as close as you can. Otherwise,
you'll be vulnerable to criticism.
Evaluation
Is it appropriate?
Is it effective?
This data should be acquired from the community
as a design-feedback loop.
And pay attention to details in the
various environments you design.
I'm a designer/planner.
I understand the creative process (or
often lack-thereof lol) and the
hardships of trying to satisfy clientele.
I'm around... and looking forward
to sharing ideas on development (on all
fronts).
PS. By 'environment', I simply mean a
place: be it a cavern, forest grove, lakeside,
feast-hall, dungeon etc.
...B
2. Did you guys think about something like match making system but for dungeons where you can go with party you created or create slots for other players to join. It's a good solution for people that doesn't have colleagues to play with.
3. Can you cast skills when runing ? (it's not about creating wow game but making weak class's more mobile)
4. I remember that in one of thread there was talk about mercenaries which are fun thing but in mmo can create awesome lags and fps loss if you have to many people in one place. So yes or no ?
5. How about ranking system with dungeons created in Foundry. Maybe best ones should be added to game and people could have access to them via some special portal ?
btw. cryptic guys - i think people need little more info about your view on some parts of the game so later everyone can say +/- of that and how would they see solution for it
I honestly think that a combination of the 2 would be a really good idea. Basically give the players the option of either A) journeying to the quest entrance on their own and maybe earning some extra coin/loot or
Personally I think that an LFM system similar to what DDO runs would be perfect. It allows a leader to basically advertise that he will be running a certain quest, what classes hes lookign for, and what lvls hes looking for. For example a typical LFM would hold this information:
Jendrak->Tomb of Horrors->Clr, Ftr/Barb, Rog, Sorc/Wiz, Bard->lvl 10-14
It also has a tooltip function that allows more info to be presented to people looking at it. If you were to hover over Jendrak for example the tooltip would show exactly howmany people are currently in group, their names, adn what classes they are. Hovering over the quest name provides info like quest lvl and location.
I'm not very familiar with 4e so I dont know if you actually mean skills or spells as they would be in 3.5 and honestly im not sure it matters. For the sake of clarity I'll be useign my knowledge of 3.5 and you can just convert to 4e as appropriate.
I think this should be done on a case by case basis. All spell casting should have some mobility as a base and then the player should be able to improve on this if the desire but I think having any caster types being able to bounce all over the place from lvl 1 would be too much. Skills on the other hand should be a little more restrictive. Such as if you searching for something you shouldnt be moving at all or taking a serious penalty for trying to move and search. However, there are some, such as hide and move silent which should definatly be useable on the move to represent the "OH S***!" response of hearing something comming down the hall.
There is an easy fix to this. Only have them available when actually in a quest. Since they have alrady stated that the quests will probably be instance based you would simply "summon" you hired help, it goes through the quest with you, adn when its over he goes away. There is absolutly no reason to have these things following people around everywhere they go.
Community input can be a double edged sword in this case. While the community can definatly tell you if they like something that doesnt necessarily mean that what they like is good for the game. I think that in this case the game as a whole is probably better off leaving the approval of user created content to the devs and avoiding the "Why does that have 5 stars" drama that will inevitably come along with such a system.
Agreed....but thats what Beta is for. Incidently I'm available if needed
What I mean by this is:
For Rumors & Dungeons: This should be pretty straight forward, party hears rumors of a powerful artifact in a dungeon. They act on the rumor, travel to the dungeon, kill all the current inhabitants, and discover that the powerful artifact is in fact either not there at all, or is in fact something much more mundane and common than advertised in the rumors.
Or when making a decision on how to do something, not always being able to go back and choose another activity after making a decision that was wrong. For instance. You find a statue of a demon radiating faint magic, with a hole in its forehead that appears to be the size of a three nice gems you just found. One of them is Blue, one is Red and one is Green, all are radiating a faint magic,. The Party is offered four options.
1) Place Blue Gem in the Hole.
2) Place Red Gem in the Hole.
3) Place Green Gem in the Hole.
4) Ignore
The problem being, if they had done all their homework, and searched the correct places, using the appropriate sense in certain searches, decifered the written text in a tome they found (That they ignored as being too hard), they would have discovered that the Green one is the correct one for this purpose, and the others would have dire consequences. (Summoning a Balor, Transportation to someplace worst, etc...) Instead, they have a one in three chance of making the right decision. Had they done everything prior, they would have a 100% chance of making the correct decision, and getting the reward.
For NPC Interactions: You have several ways of dealing with an NPC to get more information, Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate. Once you use one of them however, you lose all chance of using the others. Face it, once someone has failed to Intimidate someone, how likely are they to get the desired result by suddenly sweet talking to them? More likely they would get a resonse similar to "I told you to **** of, right! Well **** off!
Better yet, perhaps they get information that helps them get what they are looking for, by using Intimidate for instance, but it is a more circuituous route, with more hazards, than the one they would have gotten by using Diplomacy instead.
The players should be able to get clues as to which tactic would work best with each NPC, from something as simple as a Sense Motive Check.
No save and try again, like in a single player game.
Actions should have consequences, and not everything should be accomplished through brute force, nor everything though other means.
In effect, demand a party have a mix of skills, and not all just the adventuring ones that give in combat or in game advantages all the time (Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Survival, etc...
To this means, I would also expand the skills, to allow many more soft skills (Several more specific Knowledge Skills instead of simple Lore)
If I am not reading your quest text, you are doing something wrong.
Seriously. If I see one more MMO make this mistake I am going to kill someone. If your game is designed such that I can walk up to an NPC, right click him, and click Accept without reading anything about who he is, what's going on, or even what I'm going to get as a reward then you've taken the lazy path.
I'd add the importance of space. Prejt and Jendrak comment on it. And I agree, a combination of travel time and also option to save time with quick travel some how. For me, travel in a game like DDO was spoiled. You missed out on all the fun of getting there. A world like Forgotten Realms is so grand and so loved, that if I can't see it for myself, I'll lose interest fast. It's a big part of what draws me to Neverwinter.
To that point, I think a game like WoW had it right. Size. You can run and travel from A to B, but you have an option to use their horses, or griffons, or whatever also. EQ had it right, with allowing Druids to teleport groups around. These things work wonders, and still allow for the player to explore the vast areas of the game that draw in the likes of rangers and druids in particular.
I for one don't want to run across town, click on a door/portal, and be transported into a new area where I will spend the next two hours. It's convenient, to be sure for the player that needs to get in and get out of the game fast, but for everyone else, it's drab. Let me feel the environment and make it my own. I want to feel as though I live there.
I guess that's it. I want to feel as though I live there. And I typically play a ranger or a druid. So I want the travel, the exploration, the random encounters.
I love all the other suggests as well. Without those things, the game will miss it's lofty potential. I have high hopes, and I know you can't satisfy everybody. But if you can find that good mix, you may have a keeper.
Good luck. I hope you can do it.
^^^*Like Button again*^^^
^^^*Yet another LIKE*^^^
For or five people facing monsters both stationary and wandering Traps Riddles Puzzles memorable NPC's that are more than just Quest/loot vending machines and to be able to actually hear the DM...that was one of DDO's few saving graces that DM s voice gave atmosphere to even basic scenes.
Exactly... Though I would say 4-6 characters.
to continue the fun....
What does it mean ? I did often read that people want some challenge but how it should look like ?
Do we want to see something like zombie mod in call of duty or should we go for God of War solution ?
or maybe something else ?
When I say Big Odds I'm not necessarily speaking of uber Hardcore content...the most challenging Dungeons shouldn't be button mashing and endless waves of trash mobs but something that actually takes ingenuity as well as team work...something I also like are those Gotcha moments like in the Village of Hommlet module...when you find out too late that the Cleric is a cultist and has a hungry Minotaur as a pet.
That's what I mean by Big odds It has to make you feel heroic and when your teaming up like you really need each other for survival....that's how bonds are made.
Yep four to six is a good solid number not too small yet not a small army.
Also, to me one of the key points of attraction in FR are the deities. I would like to see as many NPCs/monsters as possible sport the canon favored weapons of deities, the favored colours (or perhaps priestly vestments as depicted in Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons and Demihuman Deities in 2nd edition).
In the same vein, I'd like to see the terrain features as well follow canon as closely as possible. So I can identify landmarks ingame just by recalling some picture from a sourcebook.
And still following in the same vein - it would be nice to see spawns / quests follow this logic too. If there is a banite temple in the source material, it would be lovely if the vicinity in your game would have higher chance of banite spawns / Bane related quests.
And as I write this, more and more ideas pop to my head. Divine-class NPC's could have higher chance of dropping the deity's favored gems as loot as opposed to other types of gems. For example Banite would drop Black Sapphire, Hematite, Emerald, Bloodstone - whereas priests of Gruumsh would have increased droprate in Jasmals. The information on this can be found in Faiths and Pantheons web enhancement, Deity Do's and Dont's. It's third edition, but I doubt it has changed.
Ahem, so, in short - stick to canon as much as you can.
I wish I'd said many of these things as well Wywernywin!
Well said.
I know this is not canon to FR, nor any of the D&D versions, but it was a house rule for my campaign, and a few campaigns I played in in my years of PnP games. The advantage of the computer doing all these rolls behind the scenes would remove the metagaming aspects that we encountered in the PnP game, and yet would still provide a benefits to like minded individuals working together.
I would like there to be some in game benefits to being the same faith (Or a similar faith in cases like the Triad of Torm, Tyr and Ilmater) to the Cleric casting a spell.
After all, I have a hard time seeing a Cleric of Ilmater healing a follower of Loviatar, or more so, the Gods allowing there spells to work as well for non-followers than for followers, and definately not allowing those followers of their sword enemies to get full effect of their magics.
If the same faith, all healing spells are empowered.
If one alignment shift or less of the Cleric, all healing spells get an extra one HP per dice.
If two alignment shifts of the Cleric, healing spells are normal.
If three or more alignment shifts of the Cleric, all healing spells are -1 hp per dice.
If follower of Dieties enemies (Ilmater/Loviatar for instance), all healing spells heal 1/2 of damage.
Cause Wounds Spells had the following effects -
If same faith no damage is done.
If one alignment shift or less of the Cleric, all cause wounds spells are -1 per dice damage.
If two alignment shifts of the Cleric, normal damage dice.
If three or more alignment shifts of Cleric, +1 per dice damage.
If follower of Dieties enemy(Ilmater/Loviatar for instance), all cause wounds spells are Empowered
Finally, Harm/Heal functioned as normal.
Another thing the Shattered Scrolls/Oblivion, did well, and D&D has historically been very poor at, was address training and access to special organizations (Read: Prestige Classes).
I always had a problem with the "I got "X" Exp I am now a level higher, and better at everything without seeking a mentor to train me in my skills." mentality that came with level advancing in D&D. This was especially troubleing for me when Multi-Classing to a new class or worst, a Prestige Class.
I can kind of understand the, "I have been doing the training and learning while adventuring" argument, given when staying in the same class. But when changing classes, or getting a new Skill or Feat?
I would love to see the following when gaining a new level:
If the level is in the same class, and no new skills or feats are gained. No training required.
If a new class, skill or feat is gained, seek out a teacher and pay a fee to train in that new ability. (It can be assumed that you were training with them while in your non-adventuring, and should even be paid in advance.) Kind of like taking Tai-Kwon-Do classes in the modern world, you pay for the class, take months of training, and eventually get trained to grandmaster. You cannot learn on your own.
Prestige Class access should require seeking out the trainner long before hand, and performing tasks/rituals, to earn the right to become the Prestige Class. That was you cannot easily become a Shadow Thief of Amn, Neverwinter Nine, Harper for instance.
Training should be relatively inexpensive, and as I said above, the time required, absorbed in non-adventuring time. The importance is to promote Role Playing (Since finding the trainers will at first be through locating the correct NPCs, but later, the players will be able to point people in the right direction) and to provide atmosphere to the game. Additionally, it provides feeds into adventures.
Recommended costs (In addition to a required task/quest for the trainer):
New Skill - 100 GP
New Feat - 500 GP
New Core Class - 1000 GP
New Prestige Class - 2500 GP
Another possibility, would be to allow PC's who have at least 10 points in a skill, to teach new characters a skill if they want to. The same with Feats (Simply having the Feat themselves being enough qualification - though not Prestige Feats gained through adventuring.) and Core Classes (Minimum of 5 levels in the Core Class). Though I am not sure allowing them to teach Prestige Classes is a good idea, unless they would still be required to complete the initiation quests.
In most of games you lvl up and out of nowhere you learn new skill or you learn advanced versions of skills even that you never used weaker ones before. It's just very unrealistic and cheap solution...
Perhaps have some quest lines geared towards good and evil. Only good adventurers can play through the good and evil play through the evil. Perhaps have some of the adventures be a "good guy point of view/bad guy point of view" or a series of good and bad adventures leading to a possible pvp battle between the good party and evil party to decide the ultimate outcome of the story arc.
Or even have a system that your actions changes how you are perceived in the world. Good or bad.
Alignment isn't very important in 4e, there's no penalties for not plying your alignment etc like in previous editions.
Strike one against it for me. Not having played 4e, that alone would have been enough to chase me away from it.
That said, that does not mean that alignment and more importantly, Diety allegiance, should not have an impact in any D&D MMO. They have been canon in every previous version of D&D, and they are canon in all the FR books.
For example when a character would acquire enough xp to lvl the would have to go and visit their specific trainer in order to do so. This would eliminate the dreaded mid-dungeon lvl. Multi-classing would be handled the same way, want to add a class then go see their trainer.
Now with regards to having to pay for training....I'm not sure exactly how I feel about this. On one hand I can understand the whole "you gotta pay for my services" line. On the other hand you have the "I'm doing it my way" defense. Bottom line is that both are valid arguments. If a taekwondo (since used earlier) trained fighter kicks you in the face and I kick you in the face both are going to cause serious damage but the taekwondo guys kick will probably look cooler cause he's better trained. Both are effective but he paid alot of money to look good doing it while I just care about the effect.
I would say for simplicity sake just leave the monitary cost off. Besides, oweing the trainer a few "favors" is always a good plot device
one click and traning done ?
Thats not a traning it's only lying to yourself. For me only realistic solution is DungeonSiege I solution. Same as in real life more you train better you get.
Actually it's closer to actual training than you think.
Now befor I get into this let me state how I know. I was a Marine Corp Martial Arts Instructor for 3 years. Part of my job was to teach Marines how to fight. The same principals we used apply to any style of fighting.
Now, Training in an style only shows you the basic manuver wether its a basic trip or an advanced disarm technique. While the teacher is going to ensure you a basic understanding of how a technique is preformed and that you are preforming it effectivly. it's up to you, the student, to figure out how to incorporate it into your specific style and master it. This is accurately represented by the player knowing when to use certain abillities for the best effect.
So, when you take a lvl at the trainer they are showing you the basic skill and through actually game play you are mastering its use. Even the most crudely preformed technique is just as effective when it hits.
Edit: Now aside from that I think this falls into the simplicity trumps realistic anyways. While we want to have as much as possible be true to form if it gets too in depth people will lose intrest and thats not good for anybody.
Your comparison to the guy trained in Tai-kwon-do to kick and the guy who is self taught, brush's over the important aspect. If the Kicker is self taught, he is likely to have some poor technique that will make his kick less effective, and more importantly, open him up for return attacks. You should know this from USMC Martial Arts Training (I was US Army Basic Training Drill Sergeant myself, and I taught proper strikes, mounts, kicks, strangle holds and throws too)
Training in the basics is important, this is where the trainer comes into play, and then mastering those techniques through proper practice and actual use are needed. I specifically did not recommend payment for training in each level in my example, but only for new classes, feats and skills attained in the new level, because of this basic premise.
Example: Joe the Fighter attains 2nd level. If he takes another level in Fighter, he has no costs for the level. He will get a new Feat, so he has to pay to learn that, and since he uses his two points in the same skill, he does not have to pay for training in any skills.
However, lets say he takes a level in Wizard. He has to pay for the Wizard level. He does not get a Feat, so no cost for that. He takes ranks in Concentration and Spellcraft, so has to pay for both of those. From now on, he does not need to pay for ranks in Fighter or Wizard, nor in any of the skills he already has ranks in.
As for the cost, trainers do not do things for free, they have to make a living too. That said, not all payments are in the form of gold. Thus the quest/task from guilds instead.
Of course, any upstanding member of a group, is going to be providing tithes to the organization, so that they can continue to perform their tasks, especially religious orders. Consider such payments for training tithes.