To emphasize a point several have made about narration.
I want players to have to read and listent through the narration for clues, just like in a PnP game. No "Click" past, and have the answers from a list to choose from either when a decision is required that was in the narration/text either. Nope, you should have to type in the answer when needed.
One thing I hate about most Computer RPG's is how they lead you by the nose.
Id like to ask that you give your continued support,
to the game and not fail your D&d fanbase/player fanbase.
I can only give you examples of Trion and there support,
of there MMO, 1 million subs after 6 months, while a cut and
pastes of wow/ect, there support has been.... well the best ive seen,
constant updates weekly, hotfixing and communication with its playerbase,
there are Character build flaws in there system as some have already touched on,
and the level of grinding....:( ,
but they have constantly supported there title,
is this why so many have jumped aboard, i belive its a factor of it.
Thanks to the developers and especially the other members here for the responses!
Now I'm connecting again, I'll add in my say.
*snip*
[*]Seventhly, I agree with what was said before. It would be nice if we had fast travel, but also a slower or longer way to get to the location before the party adventure, with chance of "random encounters" along the way. Whether the journey to the "dungeon" would be instanced, massive or individual, I could not say, but I also agree the "dungeon" should be an instance with parties normally of four to six characters. Of course, solo and/or RAID could exist, but the meat and potatoes should be that four to six characters instanced "dungeon." Note: "Dungeon" doesn't literally have to be that. It could be an abandoned chapel, a haunted grove or anything else. I'm just using it as the archtype word to describe the D&D mission instance.
[*]Finally, a request what not to do. Please don't pick a monster and "spam" it to death in your multiple adventures over and over and over again. Look at DDO and the kolbold. From beginning level to the highest of 3.5's offered (level 20.4,) you never stop seeing kolbolds. While Turbine has done an admirable job trying to explain why the "pest of the monster world" is so prevalent, I'm sick of seeing so many damn kolbolds! Especially when missions needed to be replayed for higher difficulty rewards and additonal xp/treasures needed. Of course, it doesn't literally have to be this monster, but please make sure you try to have a diversity of things to encounter, or only repeat creatures when they're storyarced in adventures for a campaign.
[/LIST]
Finally, anybody else's opinion counts. If you do agree or disagree on something, please explain it constructively.
I agree with all except point seven. I think we shouldn't have fast travel at least how it's usually presented in mmos, gives us an open persistent world we can explore.
If any fast travel is present in the game make it only available via teleport spells etc.
I agree with all except point seven. I think we shouldn't have fast travel at least how it's usually presented in mmos, gives us an open persistent world we can explore.
If any fast travel is present in the game make it only available via teleport spells etc.
I'm asking for the option of both, so those who want a fast route get it and those who want a journey also get it. Why have one or the other when you can have both? Obviously, there will be different camps on this, so please both camps!
I'm asking for the option of both, so those who want a fast route get it and those who want a journey also get it. Why have one or the other when you can have both? Obviously, there will be different camps on this, so please both camps!
You have a point, its my own argument about raids not really affecting immersion working against me LOL. (don't use em if you dont want to)
I guess like others i'm letting my fears run away with me. My thinking was if fast travel is too widely used by all then content for slow travel wont be introduced. Also they may just decide to make it all instanced like DDO.
Sure it prolly have been brought up but want to see Dieties having a purpose or however they benefit the players in the rulebooks. I would love to actually play as a cleric of Tempus with all the perks it brings. OR at least in the lore and a major setting factor.
I'm asking for the option of both, so those who want a fast route get it and those who want a journey also get it. Why have one or the other when you can have both? Obviously, there will be different camps on this, so please both camps!
How about slow travel being the norm, and fast travel available for a small fee. Much like it is often done in ship or caravan travel in many NWN1/NWN2 PW's now.
The reason I say this is, if fast travel is avalailable for free, people will not use slow travel (Except those of us hard core Rp's type who want the immersion, but admit it guys we are not the norm.), and you will end up with the I-95 effect, of missing everything between the cities, while everyone runs about at MACH 3 from jump point to jump point. Bleagh.
I have to say, WoW has this aspect right, and I despise WoW.
Sure it prolly have been brought up but want to see Dieties having a purpose or however they benefit the players in the rulebooks. I would love to actually play as a cleric of Tempus with all the perks it brings. OR at least in the lore and a major setting factor.
I agree completely. I have stated such in another thread, and even given ideas on how to implement such religious canon into play.
Sure it prolly have been brought up but want to see Dieties having a purpose or however they benefit the players in the rulebooks. I would love to actually play as a cleric of Tempus with all the perks it brings. OR at least in the lore and a major setting factor.
I agree completely. I have stated such in another thread, and even given ideas on how to implement such religious canon into play.
After my wizard, my next favlrite was a Follower of Tempus called Bob. Bob was..well..."Dumb as post." but had, let's just say a very high wisdom. What to make of a person who understands the world but is too dumb to properly explain it to his fellow humans. But domains may not come back in 5ed and are definately not in 4th alas. Then again, they may be in 5th ed. Playtest it and feedback it now to Wizards folks.
And for the record, the domains discussion was from our discussion here
How about slow travel being the norm, and fast travel available for a small fee. Much like it is often done in ship or caravan travel in many NWN1/NWN2 PW's now.
The reason I say this is, if fast travel is avalailable for free, people will not use slow travel (Except those of us hard core Rp's type who want the immersion, but admit it guys we are not the norm.), and you will end up with the I-95 effect, of missing everything between the cities, while everyone runs about at MACH 3 from jump point to jump point. Bleagh.
I have to say, WoW has this aspect right, and I despise WoW.
Proposal for elements I would like found in the D&D: Neverwinter Video Game
Part I
Rules:
Core mechanics of the game are the number one part of a D&D experience. The d20 based system is best description of the rules. There are other popular games out now with skill trees and other things that have an over abundant amount of math calculated into their game play. Much of this is an element that is unique to the computer’s processing capability. But the idea that it is the only way to do an MMORPG should be left behind for any D&D video game. The d20 system is the essential element to playing a D&D game. Moving away from this core mechanic takes away the root of playing a D&D versus any other video game system.
Powers and point and click interface in Neverwinter should not be a transfer directly of the D&D rules system. The closest any video game got to this was The Temple of Elemental Evil game. Which was a turn based single player game. I say this because it was the only turn video game from D&D that included a focus on all the skills in a role playing aspect. As much as they are great games NWN and Baulder’s Gate, etc. were real time and did not translate the exact same in combat. (They are all wonderful games that prove a direct translation of D&D is not required to make an outstanding D&D game.)
The purpose of developing the MMORG is not to transfer 4E directly but to make a playable version that provides the same experience as other marketable MMORPGs. To some extent people who do not play D&D should be able to enjoy the product as a MMORPG first then its relationship to the franchise. If this was the other way around the game would not needed to be created. Neverwinter has to be a good MMORPG first, and then it can be a good representation of the franchise. There is already direct translation of the electronic version of the D&D 4E, 3.5, 3e, 2nd and 1st edition available to those players. It is called the D&D Virtual Table Top and is available to subscribers from WOTC.
Many of the powers from 4ed transfer nicely into a video game. Some do not because it would be impossible to transfer their properties into action based. Utility powers are some examples of such problems. For those the game has to look hard at the function of the power. What was the intention of that power and how can it be best translated. Things like marking are going to lose some strategic element that they had on table top. In the game the mark decreases the enemy’s effectiveness towards the other PCs and (based on the intelligence of the creature) the creature would either leave combat and engage the marker or stay and fight the PC. This ability is truly difficult to program to AI and be balanced for a point and click interface. In D&D the mark stays on the opponent as long as the fulfillment of the rule is met.
This simply will not work in the point and click interface. The mark has to be turned into a cool down taunt ability due to the speed of change in the game’s environment. If the mark stayed as a direct translation then AI would have to assign some type of feature to the creature’s intelligence the way a DM does. This simply falls apart because no AI (at the MMORPG level) has the ability to recall the limitations facing its opponents and transfer the best decision based on its constantly change abilities (i.e. cool down of the players abilities & cool down of its own abilities) and calculate a decision for an attack or not attacking. Adjustments are natural, but the root feeling of any D&D game should be found between the pages of a Players handbook.
I would like to see the core mechanics stay much like the d20 system.
One advantage to D&D: Online has been that it kept the d20 rules. Abilities scores and (THACO) combat system were all present to the core mechanic. This rule system should be transferred into the game. D&D should always be about fighters, magic users, thieves, clerics and the polyhedral dice that determine their fate.
I was uncertain about spending time posting my thoughts on a game that may or may not come out. I was also uncertain because of how disappointing DDO is and the amount of WotC input I know this game will get.
I finally decided that it is better to speak and ignored than to be silent. So here goes . . .
I think 4e sucks. Many people will stop there and not read the rest, which is fine. For those that are still reading, I will provide my reasoning. IMO 4e took a flexible tabletop Role Playing Game and turned it into checkers with flavor text. Everything is about spacing and combat now. How many social skills does your Dragonborn Paladin have? We got railroaded into a system based on roles . . . combat roles at the expense of actual roleplaying. After playing DnD for 30 years (wow I am getting old), I can say that this for sure was my least favorite version of the game.
What does this have to do with Neverwinter? WotC has a bad habit of trying to keep everything the same across platforms at the expense of making the best of the medium the product is delivered on. They do this because they think (maybe they are right) it will make them more money. What I fear is that Cyptic will be forced to adopt this mentality and we will have an attempt to translate the concepts from 4e into a MMORPG and the "RPG" will be lost in the translation.
If we ever see any type of text or reference to rolling a d20 in the Neverwinter MMO, then this has happened. We roll D20s in DnD because we need some way to balance our talent against the defenses of our target and add an element of RNG. Computers can do that for you. Use the tools you are given. I can only hope this does not happen and will make some suggestions under that assumption.
So now I will offer my ideas as to how to make Neverwinter a great DnD game. Oh wait. What does "great" mean?
What is the mission of Neverwinter? Is it to make lots of money? Change the concept of an MMORPG? Faithfully translate the 1st edition DnD experience to the small screen? Beat WoW?
Only Cryptic and WotC can answer that. I have made up my own mission and will go off that: the mission of Neverwinter is to create a deeply storied and rich fantasy world based on the Neverwinter lore and to enroll as many subscribers as possible to shape that world's future.
So, based on this mission, to make this game "great" is to have millions of subscribers dazzled by the world of Neverwinter and hungry to become a part of it. That means there needs to be a rich and storied world. The world needs to be undergoing some transition that the players feel they are part of and impacts them. The game needs to be accessible, decipherable and enjoyable to get and retain people to pay for it's upkeep. It also needs to be immersive (you know when you roll out of your buddy's basement after a marathon session and cannot believe it is Sunday?). There should be a hook that sucks you in and keeps you there. In WoW, that is either better gear, killing a big bad guy, a title or some rare "achievement" that makes people say "oooh look at that guy! His sword is so shiny".
That is my initial idea of the stuff it should have. The stuff it should not have?
For starters:
Hexes or squares or some other unit of distance that makes people plan where they are going to step or do math of any kind.
encounters that can only be beaten on way (challenges that can only be overcome by combat)
A city full of portals instead of an actual "massive" world
Daily quests that feel like repetative, painful, boring daily balls of agony
Quest Text that can be ignored or "clicked through"
NPC's without a story
One dimensional character classes that can only survive a walk through the forest if they have 3 other characters with them
A backstory so complicated that you have to read all the Forgotten Realms books to understand who the heck you are talking to
Backstories so simple that we don't care
If you play WoW or DDO then you know what a lot of these are related to. As WoW is the biggest and most successful MMO out there, we should consider it as a source of inspiration for this project, but not as a foundation. WoW is and has been successful for a number of reasons, but one of the biggest is that it was first in class. EQ and others laid the groundwork, but WoW took and existing story and translated it into something massive and immersive. There was a sense of wonder when first playing the game because it was a whole new ballgame with new rules, new scenery, new challenges, but familiar stories. Blizz made something that anyone could pick up and learn quickly, but offered something to the online gaming veterans too. We would be wise to take the good from this story and see if we can make it fit in Neverwinter.
DDO should be examined because it is a close cousin of Neverwinter by way of a shared beginning and set of followers. It was the first real online version of our beloved table top game that tried to put you in the world of dungeons and dragons. DDO the game has been a flop financially and creatively. There are lessons there to be minded when creating Neverwinter. Part of the failure was a result of the problem I noted before; trying to shove the table top concept into a computer game. It don't fit. Part of the failure was trying to be a "WoW plus" and make a repackaged WoW when the original is still there and still has 10 million+ players. And the last issue is the instance based world where you never really have to see another player except when running around town. It takes away the whole point of concept of massive.
So considering the lessons of WoW and DDO combined with my definition of the mission here are the key ideas that need to be addressed:
Subscribers: Sounds silly, but this is of course the thing that will make or break a game. Getting and keeping subscribers. If we want this game to be successful, then we have to understand that the biggest group of reliable subscribers are high school/college age men. At some level, the game has to be targeted to get and keep their attention. WoW did that by introducing titles and achievements, i.e. "things that other people see that make me look cool". Young dudes like people to know that they are good at stuff without having to say that they are good at stuff. Feed this desire by making the game appeal to this mentality with some gimmicks to let them show off. Competition is the other aspect. I like cooperation, but I am an old dude. Most of the young kids like to be able to know that they are beating their buddies into the ground and drool over the leader boards for DPS, Gold, or whatever. Give them some mechanics so that they have a way to feed this desire as well.
We need the old farts too. Us dudes like cooperation and overcoming challenges. We like to feel cool playing with the young kids, but don't want our faces rubbed in all the dumb stuff (see above) that they like. So don't make the game into a fast twitch muscle/high score fest. Give us some difficult problems to solve that require brains and patience. We will keep the young guys organized.
We need female players too. As a middle aged man, I can say with perfect certainty that I have no clue what motivates women of any age and cannot comment on how to attract them to a game.
Immersive: the world needs to feel like it never ends. It should have a ton of areas that have distinct feels and you should be able to spend a couple hours just exploring each one. There should be creatures going about their daily business whether we are there or not and there should be people that need our help whether we ever find them or not. It should breathe and sleep. It should change seasons.
Ideally, the world should have established powers with different goals and desires. These forces should be working against or with each other whether the players engage in their stories or not. If enough players decide to help or hinder the powers of the world, it should shift the story in some way. That is what I mean by a world in transition. Let us be part of the story telling if we choose. And if we choose just to hunt in the forest, the world will not sit still for us. Evil may still find us.
There should be storylines and sidequests buried that we can stumble onto. Not as part of a "track" but that we can complete or not at our choosing. If you choose to complete them, then perhaps you will have additional options or advantages when a challenge presents itself.
There should be shared experiences that we must all go through so that we have common ground and can say "remember when?"
Accessible, decipherable and enjoyable: The bar for entry should be low. Don't make me learn an entire class and world on my first day. Let me figure out how to swing my sword and maybe help a villager with some bandits.
As the game proceeds let us in slowly on the story line, but give us places to go to learn more. As we gather knowledge, give us rewards for remembering that knowledge.
Make mini games inside the game so even when we do not feel like slaying a dragon, we can still do something fun for 20-30 minutes.
The Hook: This is the kicker. What is going to be the goal for the people that strap on the headset and blaze to top level before the sun is down on release day? Gear? Titles? Gold? There is no perfect answer. I would say that a combination of those plus one more thing; power. The power to alter the game in some slight way for the other players. Build a base maybe? Have troops to lend to a conflict? Fund the palace guards so that your queen is harder to kill? Maybe just build a house. Give us a way to leave our mark on the world and a way to maintain that mark. People will log on every day for years just to make sure it is still there.
Hexes or squares or some other unit of distance that makes people plan where they are going to step or do math of any kind.
encounters that can only be beaten on way (challenges that can only be overcome by combat)
A city full of portals instead of an actual "massive" world
Daily quests that feel like repetative, painful, boring daily balls of agony
Quest Text that can be ignored or "clicked through"
NPC's without a story
One dimensional character classes that can only survive a walk through the forest if they have 3 other characters with them
A backstory so complicated that you have to read all the Forgotten Realms books to understand who the heck you are talking to
Backstories so simple that we don't care
If you play WoW or DDO then you know what a lot of these are related to. As WoW is the biggest and most successful MMO out there, we should consider it as a source of inspiration for this project, but not as a foundation. WoW is and has been successful for a number of reasons, but one of the biggest is that it was first in class. EQ and others laid the groundwork, but WoW took and existing story and translated it into something massive and immersive. There was a sense of wonder when first playing the game because it was a whole new ballgame with new rules, new scenery, new challenges, but familiar stories. Blizz made something that anyone could pick up and learn quickly, but offered something to the online gaming veterans too. We would be wise to take the good from this story and see if we can make it fit in Neverwinter.
DDO should be examined because it is a close cousin of Neverwinter by way of a shared beginning and set of followers. It was the first real online version of our beloved table top game that tried to put you in the world of dungeons and dragons. DDO the game has been a flop financially and creatively. There are lessons there to be minded when creating Neverwinter. Part of the failure was a result of the problem I noted before; trying to shove the table top concept into a computer game. It don't fit. Part of the failure was trying to be a "WoW plus" and make a repackaged WoW when the original is still there and still has 10 million+ players. And the last issue is the instance based world where you never really have to see another player except when running around town. It takes away the whole point of concept of massive.
So considering the lessons of WoW and DDO combined with my definition of the mission here are the key ideas that need to be addressed:
Subscribers: Sounds silly, but this is of course the thing that will make or break a game. Getting and keeping subscribers. If we want this game to be successful, then we have to understand that the biggest group of reliable subscribers are high school/college age men. At some level, the game has to be targeted to get and keep their attention. WoW did that by introducing titles and achievements, i.e. "things that other people see that make me look cool". Young dudes like people to know that they are good at stuff without having to say that they are good at stuff. Feed this desire by making the game appeal to this mentality with some gimmicks to let them show off. Competition is the other aspect. I like cooperation, but I am an old dude. Most of the young kids like to be able to know that they are beating their buddies into the ground and drool over the leader boards for DPS, Gold, or whatever. Give them some mechanics so that they have a way to feed this desire as well.
We need the old farts too. Us dudes like cooperation and overcoming challenges. We like to feel cool playing with the young kids, but don't want our faces rubbed in all the dumb stuff (see above) that they like. So don't make the game into a fast twitch muscle/high score fest. Give us some difficult problems to solve that require brains and patience. We will keep the young guys organized.
We need female players too. As a middle aged man, I can say with perfect certainty that I have no clue what motivates women of any age and cannot comment on how to attract them to a game.
Immersive: the world needs to feel like it never ends. It should have a ton of areas that have distinct feels and you should be able to spend a couple hours just exploring each one. There should be creatures going about their daily business whether we are there or not and there should be people that need our help whether we ever find them or not. It should breathe and sleep. It should change seasons.
Ideally, the world should have established powers with different goals and desires. These forces should be working against or with each other whether the players engage in their stories or not. If enough players decide to help or hinder the powers of the world, it should shift the story in some way. That is what I mean by a world in transition. Let us be part of the story telling if we choose. And if we choose just to hunt in the forest, the world will not sit still for us. Evil may still find us.
There should be storylines and sidequests buried that we can stumble onto. Not as part of a "track" but that we can complete or not at our choosing. If you choose to complete them, then perhaps you will have additional options or advantages when a challenge presents itself.
There should be shared experiences that we must all go through so that we have common ground and can say "remember when?"
Accessible, decipherable and enjoyable: The bar for entry should be low. Don't make me learn an entire class and world on my first day. Let me figure out how to swing my sword and maybe help a villager with some bandits.
As the game proceeds let us in slowly on the story line, but give us places to go to learn more. As we gather knowledge, give us rewards for remembering that knowledge.
Make mini games inside the game so even when we do not feel like slaying a dragon, we can still do something fun for 20-30 minutes.
The Hook: This is the kicker. What is going to be the goal for the people that strap on the headset and blaze to top level before the sun is down on release day? Gear? Titles? Gold? There is no perfect answer. I would say that a combination of those plus one more thing; power. The power to alter the game in some slight way for the other players. Build a base maybe? Have troops to lend to a conflict? Fund the palace guards so that your queen is harder to kill? Maybe just build a house. Give us a way to leave our mark on the world and a way to maintain that mark. People will log on every day for years just to make sure it is still there.
Yay i like it, some of the things i have been trying to say but written so much better !
I play almost every mmo with my wife we duo everything, it can be both great and very annoying seriously though i met her in an online game (believe it or not its true !) and so asked her about what she likes in games.
She replied quests that she can do with others but also like you say she likes to have an impact on the game world. Honestly i would assume women like much what we as males enjoy and as such the like and dislike will be equally varied.
Thanks. I was able to sit down and really crank for a bit so it is loooooong.
The more I read about this, the more discouraged I get. Free to play? That forces you into a pay as you go relationship with the players. Yuck. Make it a good MMORPG and make me pay you 15 bucks a month to play it. SWTOR has demonstrated that you can get subscribers to open their wallets if you provide a good quality product. Free play is synonymous with "B Movie" in my mind. Never going to even try to be great.
The silver lining is that Foundry. If it can really make a true FPS style world that we can walk our friends through, then it will be amazing. Does not matter how much WotC forces 4e down our throats.
This will be very interesting now that 5e is just around the corner. What new things lie in store for us as well as what roadblocks await us.
5e is at least a year if not years away from being out in any real form and to be honest....it will not affect Neverwinter.
Simply because to much time has already been spent developing the game with the 4e rule set to even think about rebuilding, and yes it would take a complete rebuild to fit 5e in, it for a rules set that isnt even close to ready.
Simply because to much time has already been spent developing the game with the 4e rule set to even think about rebuilding, and yes it would take a complete rebuild to fit 5e in, it for a rules set that isnt even close to ready.
It would be more than just a complete rebuild- the game would get pushed back significantly. They haven't even started the playtest for 5e afaik (did sign up for it, and really excited to run a campaign!) so having the game released with a solid 5e build by 4q 2013 might even be pushing it.
This doesn't mean that it's stuck with 4e rules though. It's possible that once 5e comes out they may have an expansion or slowly work it in- or not at all: we don't know that 5e would even be reasonable to translate into an mmo.
But as an OT aside- if anyone gets into the 5e testing, let me know- there are some awesome things that can be done with skype and I've been burning to play a bard.
I just want to throw my vote in for better story also... any of the game developers that have not played/worked on Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale should really go play them and take notes. Since this game is supposed to be in 4th Edition rules, I don't think I'll play it, but I figured I'd just add another point in for the story/quest emphasis to keep another DDO failure from popping out of the pit of hopelessness. Also, just an idea: making taverns the official meeting spots for group forming might bring a D&D feel to the game.
I'll vote for good stories too and NPC's that support them.
I'll step out of the box here and suggest the dev's read some of the old Tunnel & Troll's stuff (story plots, mod's etc....) to get a different idea on how a place can come alive.
Also for them to pick up a copy of Drakensang: The Dark Eye and play it. This would be the best example I can think of of NPC's supporting the stories. No wandering NPC's grumbling about guard duty or what not. There you can talk to every NPC. Granted a good number will just have general chat things to say, but others will have hints of places to go, foe's to fight and a few will have direct impact sayings on the story you're working on.
I'd like to see somekind of over-arc story running through the city. Say some murders or theft's. You can do the line if you wish, but aren't required to.
Also alignments should effect your choices. Say you're a neutral evil thief doing the theft story. Well you wouldn't want to catch the bad guys, but join them, where a Pali would want to stop them.
Does anyone think that using 4e as a building block is a good thing? Most of the posts I read (and agree with) are against trying to translate the table top/miniature 4e system into an MMO. If there was a way to get Cryptic to drop this from the game, I would be much more hopeful about the outcome. Make me a Elder scrolls online in a DnD world!!
I'll vote for good stories too and NPC's that support them.
I'll step out of the box here and suggest the dev's read some of the old Tunnel & Troll's stuff (story plots, mod's etc....) to get a different idea on how a place can come alive.
Also for them to pick up a copy of Drakensang: The Dark Eye and play it. This would be the best example I can think of of NPC's supporting the stories. No wandering NPC's grumbling about guard duty or what not. There you can talk to every NPC. Granted a good number will just have general chat things to say, but others will have hints of places to go, foe's to fight and a few will have direct impact sayings on the story you're working on.
I'd like to see somekind of over-arc story running through the city. Say some murders or theft's. You can do the line if you wish, but aren't required to.
Also alignments should effect your choices. Say you're a neutral evil thief doing the theft story. Well you wouldn't want to catch the bad guys, but join them, where a Pali would want to stop them.
Please give us a living, breathing world.
Add to this, some of them, should only have information after you have earned a reputation, and then, only if you have a reputation they identify with.
For instance: Bob the merchant isn't going to hire just any group to rescue his daughter from the kidnappers, he is going to seek out only the best, with the best reputation for doing good. So, to get his notice, your party would have to full fill a number of quests, and do them in an honorable and respectable way. One member in your party has a bad reputation, and he looks elsewhere.
Or, Jim the merchant, may have darker standards, and would not even think of hiring a party with a goody two shoes with a paladin to get his daughter back, he wants blood, and hires hit men to do the dirty work.
Or, Mike the Merchant, having a similar situation, could care less about the morals of the party, he just wants the ones with the best reputation, and would hire either group.
So many more good points. Let me try and get several replies here over three posts based on the 10 K limit and keeping the breaks based on starting at a user's reply. Proactive apologies to spelling which is my weak point and which IE is fighting against incorporating here. I'm using a third party spell checker as well as common sense when I can.
Proposal for elements I would like found in the D&D: Neverwinter Video Game
Part I
Rules:
Core mechanics of the game are the number one part of a D&D experience. The d20 based system is best description of the rules. There are other popular games out now with skill trees and other things that have an over abundant amount of math calculated into their game play. Much of this is an element that is unique to the computer’s processing capability. But the idea that it is the only way to do an MMORPG should be left behind for any D&D video game. The d20 system is the essential element to playing a D&D game. Moving away from this core mechanic takes away the root of playing a D&D versus any other video game system.
Powers and point and click interface in Neverwinter should not be a transfer directly of the D&D rules system. The closest any video game got to this was The Temple of Elemental Evil game. Which was a turn based single player game. I say this because it was the only turn video game from D&D that included a focus on all the skills in a role playing aspect. As much as they are great games NWN and Baulder’s Gate, etc. were real time and did not translate the exact same in combat. (They are all wonderful games that prove a direct translation of D&D is not required to make an outstanding D&D game.)
The purpose of developing the MMORG is not to transfer 4E directly but to make a playable version that provides the same experience as other marketable MMORPGs. To some extent people who do not play D&D should be able to enjoy the product as a MMORPG first then its relationship to the franchise. If this was the other way around the game would not needed to be created. Neverwinter has to be a good MMORPG first, and then it can be a good representation of the franchise. There is already direct translation of the electronic version of the D&D 4E, 3.5, 3e, 2nd and 1st edition available to those players. It is called the D&D Virtual Table Top and is available to subscribers from WOTC.
Excellent points. Except tabletop is only 4E for D&D Insider. A lot of stuff is accurate and noting over asking what is its function as a PnP game rather than a video/MMO game and I'll snip those points and focus on something I noted here about "Marking."
This simply will not work in the point and click interface. The mark has to be turned into a cool down taunt ability due to the speed of change in the game’s environment. [snip] Adjustments are natural, but the root feeling of any D&D game should be found between the pages of a Players handbook.
I would like to see the core mechanics stay much like the d20 system.
This works both on a game explanation level of tabletop, and how to do it as a MMO.
One advantage to D&D: Online has been that it kept the d20 rules. Abilities scores and (THACO) combat system were all present to the core mechanic. This rule system should be transferred into the game. D&D should always be about fighters, magic users, thieves, clerics and the polyhedral dice that determine their fate.
THACO is a 2nd ED rule. "To Hit" is a better way of describing the 4th ed and d20 rules that came from1st ed and (to some level) original D&D before it became AD&D.
But overall, a superb original posting why we need to remember the feel of D&D over the mechanics, yet keep the d20 ruleset intact for gameplay when possible and workable.
I was uncertain about spending time posting my thoughts on a game that may or may not come out. I was also uncertain because of how disappointing DDO is and the amount of WotC input I know this game will get.
I finally decided that it is better to speak and ignored than to be silent. So here goes . . .
Well said. Agreed or not by the majority, everybody should have their say and be tallied up in the end here.
I think 4e sucks. Many people will stop there and not read the rest, which is fine.
Still reading, but do like better descriptive wording over "rules" and/or "sucks." But see my former reply.
For those that are still reading, I will provide my reasoning. IMO 4e took a flexible tabletop Role Playing Game and turned it into checkers with flavor text. Everything is about spacing and combat now. How many social skills does your Dragonborn Paladin have? We got railroaded into a system based on roles . . . combat roles at the expense of actual roleplaying. After playing DnD for 30 years (wow I am getting old), I can say that this for sure was my least favorite version of the game.
It's not like checkers or go fish. Say it everybody, Wizards is trying to make a Magic RPG! I know you want to say it!
Seriously, it WAS simplified to try and get the younger audience, and i actually DO support the character type listings to help players who know they have a style of play and understand what classes may best fit them. The backlash of this is everybody just mindlessly plays the role with no creative interpreting of the powers/skills like older versions.
What does this have to do with Neverwinter? WotC has a bad habit of trying to keep everything the same across platforms at the expense of making the best of the medium the product is delivered on. They do this because they think (maybe they are right) it will make them more money. What I fear is that Cyptic will be forced to adopt this mentality and we will have an attempt to translate the concepts from 4e into a MMORPG and the "RPG" will be lost in the translation.
QFT after watching this from 3.0 to now for D&D as well as M:TG and what Hasbro has decided. The problem is understanding this is NOT a tabletop anymore. a A LOT of things do not translate into a computer code like they can work out by pausing the talking for a moment IC to OOC. Like it or not, some powers/skills/feats don't work in a computer development. NWN showed that.
On the flip side, so did the Baldur's series. But in the long run, looking at Bioware's NW is the best bet (along with what Cryptic has done with prior games,) for what is obtainable and what is doable with the engine/game version used. (Very similar to Champions games from books to computer massive in a way.) But err on the side of the game's feeling rather than a MMO's feeling I think can be agreed upon. Others may debate over wether certain mechanics should be ported or not. such as:
Computers can do that for you. Use the tools you are given. I can only hope this does not happen and will make some suggestions under that assumption.
I happened to like DDO's DM and d20 feel to remind me of this new thing was also D&D. Others rightly note the reason we had the dice was no computer. A possible compromise is to see a dice graphic on certain "rolls" or events. But the line between style and mechinacs in regards to culture blurs here. Proceed with caution PW/Cryptic.
So now I will offer my ideas as to how to make Neverwinter a great DnD game. Oh wait. What does "great" mean?
What is the mission of Neverwinter? [snip] I have made up my own mission and will go off that: the mission of Neverwinter is to create a deeply storied and rich fantasy world based on the Neverwinter lore and to enroll as many subscribers as possible to shape that world's future. [snip] That means there needs to be a rich and storied world. The world needs to be undergoing some transition that the players feel they are part of and impacts them.[snip] It also needs to be immersive (you know when you roll out of your buddy's basement after a marathon session and cannot believe it is Sunday?). There should be a hook that sucks you in and keeps you there. [snip]
Cryptic, make us feel we're a part of the world, not just (re) running missions (over and over again) or this all may fall flat.
The stuff it should not have?
For starters:
Hexes or squares or some other unit of distance that makes people plan where they are going to step or do math of any kind.
encounters that can only be beaten on way (challenges that can only be overcome by combat)
A city full of portals instead of an actual "massive" world
Daily quests that feel like repetative, painful, boring daily balls of agony
Quest Text that can be ignored or "clicked through"
NPC's without a story
One dimensional character classes that can only survive a walk through the forest if they have 3 other characters with them
A backstory so complicated that you have to read all the Forgotten Realms books to understand who the heck you are talking to
Backstories so simple that we don't care
If you play WoW or DDO then you know what a lot of these are related to. As WoW is the biggest and most successful MMO out there, we should consider it as a source of inspiration for this project, but not as a foundation. WoW is and has been successful for a number of reasons, but one of the biggest is that it was first in class. EQ and others laid the groundwork, but WoW took and existing story and translated it into something massive and immersive. There was a sense of wonder when first playing the game because it was a whole new ballgame with new rules, new scenery, new challenges, but familiar stories. Blizz made something that anyone could pick up and learn quickly, but offered something to the online gaming veterans too. We would be wise to take the good from this story and see if we can make it fit in Neverwinter.
QFT nuff said except good work here.
DDO should be examined because it is a close cousin of Neverwinter by way of a shared beginning and set of followers. It was the first real online version of our beloved table top game that tried to put you in the world of dungeons and dragons. DDO the game has been a flop financially and creatively. [snip]
Incorrect. DDO is now a financial success after its move to the FTP market. It nearly went under as a niche before this transition, but is doing well, no matter what one may think of it as a system. Look here to see.
So considering [snip due to incorrect info as noted above] here are the key ideas that need to be addressed:
Subscribers:
[snip due to it's all true for char count. ] Go back and read the OP on subscribers and implement this remembering marketing for the young, the middle aged and females as how not to conflict these three groups as your base. Let me highlight some part that comes up from several posters on this thread including me. I also like the mini-game option too.
Ideally, the world should have established powers with different goals and desires. These forces should be working against or with each other whether the players engage in their stories or not. If enough players decide to help or hinder the powers of the world, it should shift the story in some way. That is what I mean by a world in transition. Let us be part of the story telling if we choose. And if we choose just to hunt in the forest, the world will not sit still for us. Evil may still find us.
There should be storylines and sidequests buried that we can stumble onto. Not as part of a "track" but that we can complete or not at our choosing. If you choose to complete them, then perhaps you will have additional options or advantages when a challenge presents itself.
There should be shared experiences that we must all go through so that we have common ground and can say "remember when?"
[snip]
Make mini games inside the game so even when we do not feel like slaying a dragon, we can still do something fun for 20-30 minutes.
The Hook: This is the kicker. What is going to be the goal for the people that strap on the headset and blaze to top level before the sun is down on release day? Gear? Titles? Gold? There is no perfect answer. I would say that a combination of those plus one more thing; power. The power to alter the game in some slight way for the other players. Build a base maybe? Have troops to lend to a conflict? Fund the palace guards so that your queen is harder to kill? Maybe just build a house. Give us a way to leave our mark on the world and a way to maintain that mark. People will log on every day for years just to make sure it is still there.
Again, make it a shared storyline that is there even when we are not. If the players' (note plural) actions can shape how the land is developed in future releases (such as a certain number of people have chosen x in quests 1 and z in quest 2 etc.) that makes us say, "Because many of us did this, the world ended up this way." In a D&D theme, this is SO much better than a PvP faction/leader-board thing as group involvement. Nothing wrong with some arena play/leader-board OPTION, just remember D&D is a cooperative game setting first.
I just want to throw my vote in for better story also... any of the game developers that have not played/worked on Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale should really go play them and take notes. Since this game is supposed to be in 4th Edition rules, I don't think I'll play it, but I figured I'd just add another point in for the story/quest emphasis to keep another DDO failure from popping out of the pit of hopelessness. Also, just an idea: making taverns the official meeting spots for group forming might bring a D&D feel to the game.
Again, DDO is now a success, but QFT for the NWN IW story theme done right. It's Bioware, no surprise .
I'll vote for good stories too and NPC's that support them.
I'll step out of the box here and suggest the dev's read some of the old Tunnel & Troll's stuff (story plots, mod's etc....) to get a different idea on how a place can come alive.
Also for them to pick up a copy of Drakensang: The Dark Eye and play it. This would be the best example I can think of of NPC's supporting the stories. No wandering NPC's grumbling about guard duty or what not. There you can talk to every NPC. Granted a good number will just have general chat things to say, but others will have hints of places to go, foe's to fight and a few will have direct impact sayings on the story you're working on.
I'd like to see somekind of over-arc story running through the city. Say some murders or theft's. You can do the line if you wish, but aren't required to.
Also alignments should effect your choices. Say you're a neutral evil thief doing the theft story. Well you wouldn't want to catch the bad guys, but join them, where a Pali would want to stop them.
Please give us a living, breathing world.
Just QF fing T. Well done here. THIS also holds true how the BG alignment in story works as well as ST:KOTOR. IF it can be done in an MMO setting (Kinda like a mashup of the BG/ST:TOR I guess,) Great. If the alignment here is too difficult, then so be it. But at least the theme of D&D is expressed very well here.
Does anyone think that using 4e as a building block is a good thing? Most of the posts I read (and agree with) are against trying to translate the table top/miniature 4e system into an MMO. If there was a way to get Cryptic to drop this from the game, I would be much more hopeful about the outcome. Make me a Elder scrolls online in a DnD world!!
We can't win. People first go with the falacy that 4th ed is like an MMO, then ask not to use it in an MMORPG game because people hear it's like an MMO! It's not.
Best example I can give (which what Wizards tried to do with Minatures in 3.5,) is Wizards is trying to get the thrill of collectables and fast combat moments respectively to D&D, possibly to increase the frequency of sales. Power cards and (now more so) fortune cards definately reflect the collectability of the game, and the formerly mentioned powers in their potential card form (notice the powers' layout and shape on the character sheets real and virtual) definately reflect the M:TG layout, sans the graphics.
The sentence flavor describing powers in italics is a lot like that prose used in M:TG cards.
So, is it a good thing? It's a different thing. The hardest thing PW/Cryptic has is this preconception against 4.0. Perception alters reality when it comes to marketing and potentially bad press. No matter how they deal with it, they must or they will fail out of the gate.
And TES' best qualities make it horrible for multiplayer: its open ended game for SINGLE player adventure. It cannot be developed the way it works so well for a persistant world let alone a multiplayer one. Bethesda for years has seen if it can be ported to a multiplayer format and the answer is still no. Dragon Age and others have popped up as alternates, but there's a reason you don't see development of a multi-option of that development level. The years it takes, expect D&D ver 6 to be rolling out if something is released on that scale.
A lot of things I agree with are first or again said here. Either way, read up on the good ideas please (and check the things brought to question; and I accept all the time I'm wrong when applicable .)
From looking through these it doesn't look like it's been mentioned but ....
Soundtrack
Go the extra mile and give us something good. Some of us want to listen to the game, not our itunes or pod's or CD's.
General atmosphere (The BEST example would be the Stygian music in AoC. Very arabic.)
Inn's - the popular one's sound have good upbeat music, if it's a waterfront dive then pick out something dreary to set the scene.
A marketplace - go for a background murmer of voices haggling. Movie trick: get 5 to 10 of your buddies together and have them all say watermelon, watermelon, watermelon over and over softly. Then go 10 or more feet away from them and all you'll hear is murmerring.
And the biggest is don't make them too short (The BEST example would be the Stygian music in AoC. All they are, are very short pieces that play over and over again every 3min's. That get's on the nerves quickly.)
From looking through these it doesn't look like it's been mentioned but ....
Soundtrack
Go the extra mile and give us something good. Some of us want to listen to the game, not our itunes or pod's or CD's.
General atmosphere (The BEST example would be the Stygian music in AoC. Very arabic.)
Inn's - the popular one's sound have good upbeat music, if it's a waterfront dive then pick out something dreary to set the scene.
A marketplace - go for a background murmer of voices haggling. Movie trick: get 5 to 10 of your buddies together and have them all say watermelon, watermelon, watermelon over and over softly. Then go 10 or more feet away from them and all you'll hear is murmerring.
And the biggest is don't make them too short (The BEST example would be the Stygian music in AoC. All they are, are very short pieces that play over and over again every 3min's. That get's on the nerves quickly.)
I've never liked the thought of being the 10 millionth guy to complete the quest. So...
My suggestion to the Devs (should they have time on their hand - and wish to try something a bit different) would be to make 'roguelike' quests - for both single and groups - picked up from bounty boards to perform randomised jobs.. clear this from this dungeon / collect this trinket from this tower etc.
Due to the potential for the users to create so many maps and create key locations within them, you could utilise these for this task, spawning randomised quantities & dificulties to suit the player activating the quest.
This wont have the story driven in-depth feeling that the main quests you produce will have, but will provide a near endless ammount of activities.
As well as dificulty scaling, potentially you could have the option to select short (10 minute) dungeons for those people (as previously mentioned by others) who dont have hours at a time to play with.
Btw ..If you happen to follow Bioware's morrals ideas.. add more grey area.
Comments
I want players to have to read and listent through the narration for clues, just like in a PnP game. No "Click" past, and have the answers from a list to choose from either when a decision is required that was in the narration/text either. Nope, you should have to type in the answer when needed.
One thing I hate about most Computer RPG's is how they lead you by the nose.
Id like to ask that you give your continued support,
to the game and not fail your D&d fanbase/player fanbase.
I can only give you examples of Trion and there support,
of there MMO, 1 million subs after 6 months, while a cut and
pastes of wow/ect, there support has been.... well the best ive seen,
constant updates weekly, hotfixing and communication with its playerbase,
there are Character build flaws in there system as some have already touched on,
and the level of grinding....:( ,
but they have constantly supported there title,
is this why so many have jumped aboard, i belive its a factor of it.
Please DO NOT LET US DOWN
I agree with all except point seven. I think we shouldn't have fast travel at least how it's usually presented in mmos, gives us an open persistent world we can explore.
If any fast travel is present in the game make it only available via teleport spells etc.
I'm asking for the option of both, so those who want a fast route get it and those who want a journey also get it. Why have one or the other when you can have both? Obviously, there will be different camps on this, so please both camps!
You have a point, its my own argument about raids not really affecting immersion working against me LOL. (don't use em if you dont want to)
I guess like others i'm letting my fears run away with me. My thinking was if fast travel is too widely used by all then content for slow travel wont be introduced. Also they may just decide to make it all instanced like DDO.
How about slow travel being the norm, and fast travel available for a small fee. Much like it is often done in ship or caravan travel in many NWN1/NWN2 PW's now.
The reason I say this is, if fast travel is avalailable for free, people will not use slow travel (Except those of us hard core Rp's type who want the immersion, but admit it guys we are not the norm.), and you will end up with the I-95 effect, of missing everything between the cities, while everyone runs about at MACH 3 from jump point to jump point. Bleagh.
I have to say, WoW has this aspect right, and I despise WoW.
I agree completely. I have stated such in another thread, and even given ideas on how to implement such religious canon into play.
After my wizard, my next favlrite was a Follower of Tempus called Bob. Bob was..well..."Dumb as post." but had, let's just say a very high wisdom. What to make of a person who understands the world but is too dumb to properly explain it to his fellow humans. But domains may not come back in 5ed and are definately not in 4th alas. Then again, they may be in 5th ed. Playtest it and feedback it now to Wizards folks.
And for the record, the domains discussion was from our discussion here
Didn't me a prejt already cover this earlier?
But yeah I agree again there should definatly be both available.
Part I
Rules:
Core mechanics of the game are the number one part of a D&D experience. The d20 based system is best description of the rules. There are other popular games out now with skill trees and other things that have an over abundant amount of math calculated into their game play. Much of this is an element that is unique to the computer’s processing capability. But the idea that it is the only way to do an MMORPG should be left behind for any D&D video game. The d20 system is the essential element to playing a D&D game. Moving away from this core mechanic takes away the root of playing a D&D versus any other video game system.
Powers and point and click interface in Neverwinter should not be a transfer directly of the D&D rules system. The closest any video game got to this was The Temple of Elemental Evil game. Which was a turn based single player game. I say this because it was the only turn video game from D&D that included a focus on all the skills in a role playing aspect. As much as they are great games NWN and Baulder’s Gate, etc. were real time and did not translate the exact same in combat. (They are all wonderful games that prove a direct translation of D&D is not required to make an outstanding D&D game.)
The purpose of developing the MMORG is not to transfer 4E directly but to make a playable version that provides the same experience as other marketable MMORPGs. To some extent people who do not play D&D should be able to enjoy the product as a MMORPG first then its relationship to the franchise. If this was the other way around the game would not needed to be created. Neverwinter has to be a good MMORPG first, and then it can be a good representation of the franchise. There is already direct translation of the electronic version of the D&D 4E, 3.5, 3e, 2nd and 1st edition available to those players. It is called the D&D Virtual Table Top and is available to subscribers from WOTC.
Many of the powers from 4ed transfer nicely into a video game. Some do not because it would be impossible to transfer their properties into action based. Utility powers are some examples of such problems. For those the game has to look hard at the function of the power. What was the intention of that power and how can it be best translated. Things like marking are going to lose some strategic element that they had on table top. In the game the mark decreases the enemy’s effectiveness towards the other PCs and (based on the intelligence of the creature) the creature would either leave combat and engage the marker or stay and fight the PC. This ability is truly difficult to program to AI and be balanced for a point and click interface. In D&D the mark stays on the opponent as long as the fulfillment of the rule is met.
This simply will not work in the point and click interface. The mark has to be turned into a cool down taunt ability due to the speed of change in the game’s environment. If the mark stayed as a direct translation then AI would have to assign some type of feature to the creature’s intelligence the way a DM does. This simply falls apart because no AI (at the MMORPG level) has the ability to recall the limitations facing its opponents and transfer the best decision based on its constantly change abilities (i.e. cool down of the players abilities & cool down of its own abilities) and calculate a decision for an attack or not attacking. Adjustments are natural, but the root feeling of any D&D game should be found between the pages of a Players handbook.
I would like to see the core mechanics stay much like the d20 system.
One advantage to D&D: Online has been that it kept the d20 rules. Abilities scores and (THACO) combat system were all present to the core mechanic. This rule system should be transferred into the game. D&D should always be about fighters, magic users, thieves, clerics and the polyhedral dice that determine their fate.
I finally decided that it is better to speak and ignored than to be silent. So here goes . . .
I think 4e sucks. Many people will stop there and not read the rest, which is fine. For those that are still reading, I will provide my reasoning. IMO 4e took a flexible tabletop Role Playing Game and turned it into checkers with flavor text. Everything is about spacing and combat now. How many social skills does your Dragonborn Paladin have? We got railroaded into a system based on roles . . . combat roles at the expense of actual roleplaying. After playing DnD for 30 years (wow I am getting old), I can say that this for sure was my least favorite version of the game.
What does this have to do with Neverwinter? WotC has a bad habit of trying to keep everything the same across platforms at the expense of making the best of the medium the product is delivered on. They do this because they think (maybe they are right) it will make them more money. What I fear is that Cyptic will be forced to adopt this mentality and we will have an attempt to translate the concepts from 4e into a MMORPG and the "RPG" will be lost in the translation.
If we ever see any type of text or reference to rolling a d20 in the Neverwinter MMO, then this has happened. We roll D20s in DnD because we need some way to balance our talent against the defenses of our target and add an element of RNG. Computers can do that for you. Use the tools you are given. I can only hope this does not happen and will make some suggestions under that assumption.
So now I will offer my ideas as to how to make Neverwinter a great DnD game. Oh wait. What does "great" mean?
What is the mission of Neverwinter? Is it to make lots of money? Change the concept of an MMORPG? Faithfully translate the 1st edition DnD experience to the small screen? Beat WoW?
Only Cryptic and WotC can answer that. I have made up my own mission and will go off that: the mission of Neverwinter is to create a deeply storied and rich fantasy world based on the Neverwinter lore and to enroll as many subscribers as possible to shape that world's future.
So, based on this mission, to make this game "great" is to have millions of subscribers dazzled by the world of Neverwinter and hungry to become a part of it. That means there needs to be a rich and storied world. The world needs to be undergoing some transition that the players feel they are part of and impacts them. The game needs to be accessible, decipherable and enjoyable to get and retain people to pay for it's upkeep. It also needs to be immersive (you know when you roll out of your buddy's basement after a marathon session and cannot believe it is Sunday?). There should be a hook that sucks you in and keeps you there. In WoW, that is either better gear, killing a big bad guy, a title or some rare "achievement" that makes people say "oooh look at that guy! His sword is so shiny".
That is my initial idea of the stuff it should have. The stuff it should not have?
For starters:
If you play WoW or DDO then you know what a lot of these are related to. As WoW is the biggest and most successful MMO out there, we should consider it as a source of inspiration for this project, but not as a foundation. WoW is and has been successful for a number of reasons, but one of the biggest is that it was first in class. EQ and others laid the groundwork, but WoW took and existing story and translated it into something massive and immersive. There was a sense of wonder when first playing the game because it was a whole new ballgame with new rules, new scenery, new challenges, but familiar stories. Blizz made something that anyone could pick up and learn quickly, but offered something to the online gaming veterans too. We would be wise to take the good from this story and see if we can make it fit in Neverwinter.
DDO should be examined because it is a close cousin of Neverwinter by way of a shared beginning and set of followers. It was the first real online version of our beloved table top game that tried to put you in the world of dungeons and dragons. DDO the game has been a flop financially and creatively. There are lessons there to be minded when creating Neverwinter. Part of the failure was a result of the problem I noted before; trying to shove the table top concept into a computer game. It don't fit. Part of the failure was trying to be a "WoW plus" and make a repackaged WoW when the original is still there and still has 10 million+ players. And the last issue is the instance based world where you never really have to see another player except when running around town. It takes away the whole point of concept of massive.
So considering the lessons of WoW and DDO combined with my definition of the mission here are the key ideas that need to be addressed:
Subscribers: Sounds silly, but this is of course the thing that will make or break a game. Getting and keeping subscribers. If we want this game to be successful, then we have to understand that the biggest group of reliable subscribers are high school/college age men. At some level, the game has to be targeted to get and keep their attention. WoW did that by introducing titles and achievements, i.e. "things that other people see that make me look cool". Young dudes like people to know that they are good at stuff without having to say that they are good at stuff. Feed this desire by making the game appeal to this mentality with some gimmicks to let them show off. Competition is the other aspect. I like cooperation, but I am an old dude. Most of the young kids like to be able to know that they are beating their buddies into the ground and drool over the leader boards for DPS, Gold, or whatever. Give them some mechanics so that they have a way to feed this desire as well.
We need the old farts too. Us dudes like cooperation and overcoming challenges. We like to feel cool playing with the young kids, but don't want our faces rubbed in all the dumb stuff (see above) that they like. So don't make the game into a fast twitch muscle/high score fest. Give us some difficult problems to solve that require brains and patience. We will keep the young guys organized.
We need female players too. As a middle aged man, I can say with perfect certainty that I have no clue what motivates women of any age and cannot comment on how to attract them to a game.
Immersive: the world needs to feel like it never ends. It should have a ton of areas that have distinct feels and you should be able to spend a couple hours just exploring each one. There should be creatures going about their daily business whether we are there or not and there should be people that need our help whether we ever find them or not. It should breathe and sleep. It should change seasons.
Ideally, the world should have established powers with different goals and desires. These forces should be working against or with each other whether the players engage in their stories or not. If enough players decide to help or hinder the powers of the world, it should shift the story in some way. That is what I mean by a world in transition. Let us be part of the story telling if we choose. And if we choose just to hunt in the forest, the world will not sit still for us. Evil may still find us.
There should be storylines and sidequests buried that we can stumble onto. Not as part of a "track" but that we can complete or not at our choosing. If you choose to complete them, then perhaps you will have additional options or advantages when a challenge presents itself.
There should be shared experiences that we must all go through so that we have common ground and can say "remember when?"
Accessible, decipherable and enjoyable: The bar for entry should be low. Don't make me learn an entire class and world on my first day. Let me figure out how to swing my sword and maybe help a villager with some bandits.
As the game proceeds let us in slowly on the story line, but give us places to go to learn more. As we gather knowledge, give us rewards for remembering that knowledge.
Make mini games inside the game so even when we do not feel like slaying a dragon, we can still do something fun for 20-30 minutes.
The Hook: This is the kicker. What is going to be the goal for the people that strap on the headset and blaze to top level before the sun is down on release day? Gear? Titles? Gold? There is no perfect answer. I would say that a combination of those plus one more thing; power. The power to alter the game in some slight way for the other players. Build a base maybe? Have troops to lend to a conflict? Fund the palace guards so that your queen is harder to kill? Maybe just build a house. Give us a way to leave our mark on the world and a way to maintain that mark. People will log on every day for years just to make sure it is still there.
Yay i like it, some of the things i have been trying to say but written so much better !
I play almost every mmo with my wife we duo everything, it can be both great and very annoying
She replied quests that she can do with others but also like you say she likes to have an impact on the game world. Honestly i would assume women like much what we as males enjoy and as such the like and dislike will be equally varied.
The more I read about this, the more discouraged I get. Free to play? That forces you into a pay as you go relationship with the players. Yuck. Make it a good MMORPG and make me pay you 15 bucks a month to play it. SWTOR has demonstrated that you can get subscribers to open their wallets if you provide a good quality product. Free play is synonymous with "B Movie" in my mind. Never going to even try to be great.
The silver lining is that Foundry. If it can really make a true FPS style world that we can walk our friends through, then it will be amazing. Does not matter how much WotC forces 4e down our throats.
Simply because to much time has already been spent developing the game with the 4e rule set to even think about rebuilding, and yes it would take a complete rebuild to fit 5e in, it for a rules set that isnt even close to ready.
It would be more than just a complete rebuild- the game would get pushed back significantly. They haven't even started the playtest for 5e afaik (did sign up for it, and really excited to run a campaign!) so having the game released with a solid 5e build by 4q 2013 might even be pushing it.
This doesn't mean that it's stuck with 4e rules though. It's possible that once 5e comes out they may have an expansion or slowly work it in- or not at all: we don't know that 5e would even be reasonable to translate into an mmo.
But as an OT aside- if anyone gets into the 5e testing, let me know- there are some awesome things that can be done with skype and I've been burning to play a bard.
I'll step out of the box here and suggest the dev's read some of the old Tunnel & Troll's stuff (story plots, mod's etc....) to get a different idea on how a place can come alive.
Also for them to pick up a copy of Drakensang: The Dark Eye and play it. This would be the best example I can think of of NPC's supporting the stories. No wandering NPC's grumbling about guard duty or what not. There you can talk to every NPC. Granted a good number will just have general chat things to say, but others will have hints of places to go, foe's to fight and a few will have direct impact sayings on the story you're working on.
I'd like to see somekind of over-arc story running through the city. Say some murders or theft's. You can do the line if you wish, but aren't required to.
Also alignments should effect your choices. Say you're a neutral evil thief doing the theft story. Well you wouldn't want to catch the bad guys, but join them, where a Pali would want to stop them.
Please give us a living, breathing world.
Add to this, some of them, should only have information after you have earned a reputation, and then, only if you have a reputation they identify with.
For instance: Bob the merchant isn't going to hire just any group to rescue his daughter from the kidnappers, he is going to seek out only the best, with the best reputation for doing good. So, to get his notice, your party would have to full fill a number of quests, and do them in an honorable and respectable way. One member in your party has a bad reputation, and he looks elsewhere.
Or, Jim the merchant, may have darker standards, and would not even think of hiring a party with a goody two shoes with a paladin to get his daughter back, he wants blood, and hires hit men to do the dirty work.
Or, Mike the Merchant, having a similar situation, could care less about the morals of the party, he just wants the ones with the best reputation, and would hire either group.
Just another .02
Excellent points. Except tabletop is only 4E for D&D Insider. A lot of stuff is accurate and noting over asking what is its function as a PnP game rather than a video/MMO game and I'll snip those points and focus on something I noted here about "Marking."
This works both on a game explanation level of tabletop, and how to do it as a MMO.
THACO is a 2nd ED rule. "To Hit" is a better way of describing the 4th ed and d20 rules that came from1st ed and (to some level) original D&D before it became AD&D.
But overall, a superb original posting why we need to remember the feel of D&D over the mechanics, yet keep the d20 ruleset intact for gameplay when possible and workable.
Well said. Agreed or not by the majority, everybody should have their say and be tallied up in the end here.
Still reading, but do like better descriptive wording over "rules" and/or "sucks." But see my former reply.
It's not like checkers or go fish. Say it everybody, Wizards is trying to make a Magic RPG! I know you want to say it!
Seriously, it WAS simplified to try and get the younger audience, and i actually DO support the character type listings to help players who know they have a style of play and understand what classes may best fit them. The backlash of this is everybody just mindlessly plays the role with no creative interpreting of the powers/skills like older versions.
QFT after watching this from 3.0 to now for D&D as well as M:TG and what Hasbro has decided. The problem is understanding this is NOT a tabletop anymore. a A LOT of things do not translate into a computer code like they can work out by pausing the talking for a moment IC to OOC. Like it or not, some powers/skills/feats don't work in a computer development. NWN showed that.
On the flip side, so did the Baldur's series. But in the long run, looking at Bioware's NW is the best bet (along with what Cryptic has done with prior games,) for what is obtainable and what is doable with the engine/game version used. (Very similar to Champions games from books to computer massive in a way.) But err on the side of the game's feeling rather than a MMO's feeling I think can be agreed upon. Others may debate over wether certain mechanics should be ported or not. such as:
I happened to like DDO's DM and d20 feel to remind me of this new thing was also D&D. Others rightly note the reason we had the dice was no computer. A possible compromise is to see a dice graphic on certain "rolls" or events. But the line between style and mechinacs in regards to culture blurs here. Proceed with caution PW/Cryptic.
Cryptic, make us feel we're a part of the world, not just (re) running missions (over and over again) or this all may fall flat.
QFT nuff said except good work here.
Incorrect. DDO is now a financial success after its move to the FTP market. It nearly went under as a niche before this transition, but is doing well, no matter what one may think of it as a system. Look here to see.
[snip due to it's all true for char count. ] Go back and read the OP on subscribers and implement this remembering marketing for the young, the middle aged and females as how not to conflict these three groups as your base. Let me highlight some part that comes up from several posters on this thread including me. I also like the mini-game option too.
Again, make it a shared storyline that is there even when we are not. If the players' (note plural) actions can shape how the land is developed in future releases (such as a certain number of people have chosen x in quests 1 and z in quest 2 etc.) that makes us say, "Because many of us did this, the world ended up this way." In a D&D theme, this is SO much better than a PvP faction/leader-board thing as group involvement. Nothing wrong with some arena play/leader-board OPTION, just remember D&D is a cooperative game setting first.
Just QF fing T. Well done here. THIS also holds true how the BG alignment in story works as well as ST:KOTOR. IF it can be done in an MMO setting (Kinda like a mashup of the BG/ST:TOR I guess,) Great. If the alignment here is too difficult, then so be it. But at least the theme of D&D is expressed very well here.
We can't win. People first go with the falacy that 4th ed is like an MMO, then ask not to use it in an MMORPG game because people hear it's like an MMO! It's not.
Best example I can give (which what Wizards tried to do with Minatures in 3.5,) is Wizards is trying to get the thrill of collectables and fast combat moments respectively to D&D, possibly to increase the frequency of sales. Power cards and (now more so) fortune cards definately reflect the collectability of the game, and the formerly mentioned powers in their potential card form (notice the powers' layout and shape on the character sheets real and virtual) definately reflect the M:TG layout, sans the graphics.
The sentence flavor describing powers in italics is a lot like that prose used in M:TG cards.
So, is it a good thing? It's a different thing. The hardest thing PW/Cryptic has is this preconception against 4.0. Perception alters reality when it comes to marketing and potentially bad press. No matter how they deal with it, they must or they will fail out of the gate.
And TES' best qualities make it horrible for multiplayer: its open ended game for SINGLE player adventure. It cannot be developed the way it works so well for a persistant world let alone a multiplayer one. Bethesda for years has seen if it can be ported to a multiplayer format and the answer is still no. Dragon Age and others have popped up as alternates, but there's a reason you don't see development of a multi-option of that development level. The years it takes, expect D&D ver 6 to be rolling out if something is released on that scale.
A lot of things I agree with are first or again said here. Either way, read up on the good ideas please (and check the things brought to question; and I accept all the time I'm wrong when applicable
Soundtrack
Go the extra mile and give us something good. Some of us want to listen to the game, not our itunes or pod's or CD's.
General atmosphere (The BEST example would be the Stygian music in AoC. Very arabic.)
Inn's - the popular one's sound have good upbeat music, if it's a waterfront dive then pick out something dreary to set the scene.
A marketplace - go for a background murmer of voices haggling. Movie trick: get 5 to 10 of your buddies together and have them all say watermelon, watermelon, watermelon over and over softly. Then go 10 or more feet away from them and all you'll hear is murmerring.
And the biggest is don't make them too short (The BEST example would be the Stygian music in AoC. All they are, are very short pieces that play over and over again every 3min's. That get's on the nerves quickly.)
Totally.
I think it was Lucas that said
something to this degree:
50% of a movie is the sound.
If I end up enjoying this game immensely,
even with my eyes closed... you've done
something right Devs.
Funny, for all its flaws (they blew it up after all) DDO's marketplace had the best music, and I would LOVE that in an inn and/or bazaar.
- Continent of the Ninth
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=c9+pvp&oq=c9+pvp&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=1120l3500l0l3861l6l6l0l2l2l0l201l626l0.3.1l4l0
- Guild Wars 2
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=guild+wars++pvp&oq=guild+wars++pvp&aq=f&aqi=g4&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=103793l108812l0l109322l15l15l0l6l6l0l228l1187l4.4.1l9l0
- Tera Online
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tera+online+pvp&oq=Tera+online&aq=2&aqi=g10&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=44131l46532l0l49464l11l11l0l5l5l0l205l879l1.4.1l6l0
My suggestion to the Devs (should they have time on their hand - and wish to try something a bit different) would be to make 'roguelike' quests - for both single and groups - picked up from bounty boards to perform randomised jobs.. clear this from this dungeon / collect this trinket from this tower etc.
Due to the potential for the users to create so many maps and create key locations within them, you could utilise these for this task, spawning randomised quantities & dificulties to suit the player activating the quest.
This wont have the story driven in-depth feeling that the main quests you produce will have, but will provide a near endless ammount of activities.
As well as dificulty scaling, potentially you could have the option to select short (10 minute) dungeons for those people (as previously mentioned by others) who dont have hours at a time to play with.
Btw ..If you happen to follow Bioware's morrals ideas.. add more grey area.