I've never liked the thought of being the 10 millionth guy to complete the quest. So...
My suggestion to the Devs (should they have time on their hand - and wish to try something a bit different) would be to make 'roguelike' quests - for both single and groups - picked up from bounty boards to perform randomised jobs.. clear this from this dungeon / collect this trinket from this tower etc.
Due to the potential for the users to create so many maps and create key locations within them, you could utilise these for this task, spawning randomised quantities & dificulties to suit the player activating the quest.
This wont have the story driven in-depth feeling that the main quests you produce will have, but will provide a near endless ammount of activities.
As well as dificulty scaling, potentially you could have the option to select short (10 minute) dungeons for those people (as previously mentioned by others) who dont have hours at a time to play with.
Btw ..If you happen to follow Bioware's morrals ideas.. add more grey area.
For gods sake please no.....if I have to see yet another MMO following the "gather 10 of these" or "kill 10 of these" half assed "quests" I'm gonna shoot someone.
We the player deserve better and you the developer can do better that this.
For gods sake please no.....if I have to see yet another MMO following the "gather 10 of these" or "kill 10 of these" half assed "quests" I'm gonna shoot someone.
We the player deserve better and you the developer can do better that this.
uh.. I didnt mention collect x ammount or kill x ammount.. sounds a little miss-interprited. Dungeons usually have 1 goal at the end, which would be the flag for completion... this was the idea behind it.
Go to dungeon because there is some rare item or mysterious monster ?
DnD is same thing when it comes to how quest look as you have in mmo the only reason why it looks better is because you go for one item not ten and quests are read by game master so they give you feeling of something more real.
I did watch several videos of dnd games and these with wizards of the coast also and quests they create are no different then quest that you have in any mmo but you never give a xxxt to read them.
Go to dungeon because there is some rare item or mysterious monster ?
DnD is same thing when it comes to how quest look as you have in mmo the only reason why it looks better is because you go for one item not ten and quests are read by game master so they give you feeling of something more real.
I did watch several videos of dnd games and these with wizards of the coast also and quests they create are no different then quest that you have in any mmo but you never give a xxxt to read them.
For starters, in most if not all MMO you don't have quests that are purely diplomatic. You either has something to take somewhere or kill something. In DnD you can win purely by diplomacy, as in pc dnd games. MMO's are focused on huge worlds and lots of exploration - that's why diplomacy is rarely there.
Go to dungeon because there is some rare item or mysterious monster ?
DnD is same thing when it comes to how quest look as you have in mmo the only reason why it looks better is because you go for one item not ten and quests are read by game master so they give you feeling of something more real.
I did watch several videos of dnd games and these with wizards of the coast also and quests they create are no different then quest that you have in any mmo but you never give a xxxt to read them.
Quests are totally different plain n simple. Go play DDO if your not grasping how different. For instance Deleras Tomb if you something precise.
For me, the most compelling aspect of D&D is the flexible character creation possibilities. The 4th edition rules have allowed for the widest variety of effective character concepts to date, which is why I've been so desperate for a 4th edition D&D CRPG. (I've spent literally hundreds of hours creating various characters with WotC's 4th edition character generator, just for the fun of it.) It was disappointing to read that there were only a few classes planned for Neverwinter, but I still hold out hope that more will be added in the future. I would certainly be willing to pay for bonus content in the form of additional race and class options added post-launch, provided that the general gameplay is enjoyable.
With that said, in terms of CRPGs, my favorite of all time was Planescape Torment, which only allowed us to choose from one race and three classes. Instead, it provided rich, interesting environments and NPCs and multiple ways of solving problems appropriate for the PC's ability scores. This created the feeling of being immersed into a living world rather than just accomplishing objectives in a game, and also added a lot of replay value. With regards to Neverwinter, this is more a game content issue than a game engine issue, of course, and will largely be in the hands of module creators. However, I think it's critical that we have the tools to make such dynamic choices available to module creators in the most accessible way possible. Dialog trees need to be able to include options that only appear when the PC meets certain prerequisites, which might include skill trainings, skill levels, races, classes, feats, or even equipment worn. (NPC: "I see you're carrying a bow. Our hunting party could use an extra hand, if you have the time.") Scripted events should allow conditional checks based on any of the above, on previous character actions, or on random chance.
Finally, and most importantly, please don't fall into the typical MMORPG trap of making us grind through repetitive content. Nothing will kill my interest in a game faster than that. Smashing barrels is not a compelling gameplay experience, and in no way contributes to a feeling of immersion in an RPG world. Having us repeat the same adventures multiple times in order to accumulate xp/gold/favor/etc. might seem like a viable way to keep us playing longer, but it will have the effect of cheapening the experience of playing those adventures and of making the game boring. Instead, it's better to do the adventure just once per character, so that the next time we play that adventure it will be with a new character, with a different play style, and after some length of time has passed.
Since 4 ed has skill challenges why not use them for quests? Some quests are for fighting, others for skills. Diplomatic, sneaky, insightful - such quests would be fun.
Since 4 ed has skill challenges why not use them for quests? Some quests are for fighting, others for skills. Diplomatic, sneaky, insightful - such quests would be fun.
Not only fun, they would keep us reading and interested.
The failure to challenge us mentally leads to repeated movement rewards. If you can get ahead by faster clicking without reading, the game is a failure before the shrinkwrap comes off.
Setting value on achievements that permanently affect our stats is incentive. If its well written, (read this future foundry users), it gives something worthwhile.
have been one of those who spent hundreds of hours just creating characters using the Wizards D&D Insider 4th ed character creator. Glad to see I'm not alone here
I also am a big fan of skill challenges, and look forward to it being used as an option to combat for rewards/XP.
DDO did an admirable job having possible non-combat secondary goals (one could get XP for) in their mods, but the lack of the skill challenge system until the 4th edition DM2 release made it not an option to initially build into the 3.5 DDO MMORPG game engine (when Wizards was already very restrictive on allowable IP content changes.) That noted, Bioware seemed to preserve the porting to the computer game very well from the tabletop rules so I have no idea why Turbine made their online game so hybrid (compared to the NWN2 original tabletop D&D feel of the game.)
On both a purist level and alternate to combat level, The Temple of Elemental Evil did a great job of preserving the original tabletop game feel and utilizing skills/roleplaying/negotiations for branched outcomes in regards to plot. However, this is just a suggestion what can work on the theme of this game's redevelopment. I do understand ToEE was a single-player game, so the branched outcomes using skills and pathing options would not be so easy, and falls under the same open-ended multi-player difficulties as The Elder Scrolls' Skyrim and Dragon Age II being "converted" to multiplayer.
On the other hand, Star Wars: The Old Republic has shown the MMORPG roleplaying/pathing option can be done; just be wary not to focus on it at the sacrifice of the entire game's quality (as some feel regarding that game.)
I have givin up all hope for this game, even when there is a release, im sure i wont be here
just the sheer fact that there has been NO communication in many many months no footage nothing. i can just see the kind of service will get once the game goes live,
Good bye too all hope too a great Dnd GAME R.I.P Neverwinter - Doom:(
I have givin up all hope for this game, even when there is a release, im sure i wont be here
just the sheer fact that there has been NO communication in many many months no footage nothing. i can just see the kind of service will get once the game goes live,
Good bye too all hope too a great Dnd GAME R.I.P Neverwinter - Doom:(
You'll only need to wait out for 2-3 more months. Stormshade has given that late March/earl April that there will be info given out.
I have givin up all hope for this game, even when there is a release, im sure i wont be here
just the sheer fact that there has been NO communication in many many hours no footage nothing. i can just see the kind of service will get once the game goes live,
Good bye too all hope too a great Dnd GAME R.I.P Neverwinter - Doom:(
(An old DDO joke variant when somebody said good bye and doom.)
Read the Dev tracker. They have responded both recently and consistantly. Even if you don't count January 16, 2012, they have responded three times in the last three days! Oh, and a Developer response was in this thread on January 10, 2012 posted here.
And I'm touched this thread is going 11 pages strong at the time of this reply, but there are other threads in this forum they have responded to more recently.
So you're so busy talking about stuff you didn't bother to check on, speaking fallacy instead of enlightenment.
I have givin up all hope for this game, even when there is a release, im sure i wont be here
just the sheer fact that there has been NO communication in many many months no footage nothing. i can just see the kind of service will get once the game goes live,
Good bye too all hope too a great Dnd GAME R.I.P Neverwinter - Doom:(
(An old DDO joke variant when somebody said good bye and doom.)
Read the Dev tracker. They have responded both recently and consistantly. Even if you don't count January 16, 2012, they have responded three times in the last three days! Oh, and a Developer response was in this thread on January 10, 2012 posted here.
And I'm touched this thread is going 11 pages strong at the time of this reply, but there are other threads in this forum they have responded to more recently.
So you're so busy talking about stuff you didn't bother to check on, speaking fallacy instead of enlightenment.
IMO, You and I have a very diffrent idea as too what dev communication is,
and i have keep up with dev tracker,
and have been playing DDO full time for 5 yrs (so no you cant have my stuff):D
Still waiting for some useful info from the dev team, regardless, from what ive seen and read about point click combat and .. blah im done .. DDO my have tierd me out but it's still by far the best fast past combat DND game out there and now with there new licence with wotc too call them selves DDO with out the ebberon sticker attached , they are going too be the dnd video game for the future. - Doom
I have givin up all hope for this game, even when there is a release, im sure i wont be here
just the sheer fact that there has been NO communication in many many months ....
Well, I saw months and I listed days. Please either update your prior post which was "fixed" by another poster or acknowledge your error stating NO communication was done in "many many" months.
If you wish to ammend your posting to say nothing substantial, I may consider that. Elsewise, it's a bad post on what was descriptively done in contrast to said post. I cut off the goodbye all/doom part, since you're still here. But if you wish to go, I or anybody else will not stop you and respect your decision to depart should you wish that.
ALL classes should be relevant and desired for groups. I would like to see flexibility where you will see a wide variety of characters running around. The big fail in a way is that in PnP you could have a 5 str, but that didn't mean you were gimp. The dice roll was the dice roll.(ok, this may have changed since I never played any rules past 2nd edition)
No eternal grinding for stupid ingredients to make items. Sure make it difficult to get the ingredients, make it take us across the realm, but I don't want to run the same quest over and over to get some stupid chipmunk funk.
If there are quest rewards make them worthwhile. I should be looking forward to seeing what my reward is.
If a quest is to kill someone/thing how can we rerun it? Not sure if it is possible but every now and then I would have something else fill the void created by players removing the pests that are in a dungeon.
No useless skills. If you give us a skill we can use, make it something that is useful more then 50% of the time. It doesn't have to be vital, just make it useful.
Don't class balance, implement the rules and that is how it is.
Once you try and implement class balance there will always be someone complaining. State it early and often that there is no balancing.
You can better use that time to create and develop new content.
Sorry, but the 4th edition setup of all classes casting "spells" of their class (martial for fighter's, arcane for wizards, etc,) was done so everybody would feel in combat they have something to do and is a "built in class balancing feature" of (the non computer game) D&D.
Now, if the Neverwinter MMO game was released and we don't want people to "rebalance" classes down the line to "fix it," I fully agree on that. No good has ever come (to the best of my memory,) from "rebalancing MMO classes."
Sorry, but the 4th edition setup of all classes casting "spells" of their class (martial for fighter's, arcane for wizards, etc,) was done so everybody would feel in combat they have something to do and is a "built in class balancing feature" of (the non computer game) D&D.
Now, if the Neverwinter MMO game was released and we don't want people to "rebalance" classes down the line to "fix it," I fully agree on that. No good has ever come (to the best of my memory,) from "rebalancing MMO classes."
Im pretty sure what he was saying is that the devs shouldnt take it upone them sleves to to try and reblance classes away from the rule set prior to launch and i cant say i disagree.
DnD isnt about class balance, in fact its about class imbalance. By purposefully unbalancing the classes you create a situation where you need others to help you accomplich things. DnD is not and should never be a solo act. Thats what WoW is for
I should check in more often. There's no way I'm wading through 11 pages worth of material. Sorry if I'm quoting someone.
I've had several issues with past D&D games, and they seem to revolve around 2 main issues: social interaction and the unlimited gameplay potential of a tabletop paper&pencil based game being limited by the shortcomings of a programmed electronic experience.
I've played P&P before and it was always with a small cluster of friends. I played NWN 1 and 2 with friends and alone. MMOs are generally played with strangers. I don't like strangers. I play video games in part because I don't have to talk to anyone I don't want to. In an MMO, there's not a lot I can do to avoid the yammering of idiots. Yes, you can switch off zonechat, but if a troll starts hopping on my floater while I'm trying to fish, I can't switch him off (blasted Hordies . . . I blame Loche). How do we stop this? I have no idea. Have an IQ test to buy the game? Is there such a thing as a maturity test? Would it involve speaking to actual women?
On tabletop, you can literally choose to do anything you want. If my players wanted to adopt a dire rat, they could. I wouldn't recommend it, but you could. If my players wanted to go to the (well-named) Wyvern Cliffs as lvl 1 characters, they could. I wouldn't recommend that either. But you had the option. In a video game, even with a DM firing off powers hither and yon, you can't just decide to do whatever whim should come up. You can't program for everything that could possibly come up on tabletop.
I don't know how either of these difficulties can be overcome. They both require either a creative team of massive ability or near infinite processing capacity. Likely both. But they are problems I've seen in previous games, including D&D games and MMOs, that I just couldn't get out of my head. If you were to solve either of them, not only would I be guaranteed to buy the game, but I would happily recommend it on my blog to all 3 of my regular readers.
Like minded people could line up and play if their times and days allow them to do so.
Sounds like you are the DM I would like to have. But I feel your pain but I just don't know how one could do so unless you had control of a room and would ban trouble makers from ruining the fun of others.
Here are some things that I was thinking.
.........................................................................................................
If a quest is to kill someone/thing how can we rerun it? Not sure if it is possible but every now and then I would have something else fill the void created by players removing the pests that are in a dungeon.
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Make zerging useless.
Yes....
I agree with you about re-spawning bad guys with the same stupid minions in a scenario (Used scenario to cover Dungeons, Caverns, Outdoor, City, Castle, Ship, etc).
I would LOVE to see where once you run through a dungeon, you cannot revisit the same dungeon for several levels, when, voila, it suddenly has new occupants, with new defenses, and new treasures.
Yes, you should have "Grinding" areas, that allow people to make some exp, but they should provide little to no treasure, and the exp should be level appropriate and barely enough to make the effort worthwhile, so that people don't farm them.
Zerging (Berzerking)... My pet peeve in PW's and games. First, the default movement should be a walk, not a run like in NWN.
If you run, it should have major penalties to things like Spot, Listen and Search.
Running should also increase your opponents chance to see or hear you and be able to prepare spells/ambushes, etc.
It should also cause you to fatigue, giving you penalties with your attack. Penalties that increase the more and longer you run.
The amount of time you can run, should be dependant on what type of armor you are wearing, and what weapons.
Seeing Full Plate and Tower Shield Fighters wielding Great Axes, Greatswords or Mauls one handed running around liek three year olds on a gallon of Mountain Dew should not occur, except for VERY short distances. (Read: Charging a Foe)
There is a time and place for Zerging, and it should be the starting few minutes of a combat, when it has the shock and awe effect it is designed for.
I agree with you about re-spawning bad guys with the same stupid minions in a scenario (Used scenario to cover Dungeons, Caverns, Outdoor, City, Castle, Ship, etc).
I would LOVE to see where once you run through a dungeon, you cannot revisit the same dungeon for several levels, when, voila, it suddenly has new occupants, with new defenses, and new treasures.
Yes, you should have "Grinding" areas, that allow people to make some exp, but they should provide little to no treasure, and the exp should be level appropriate and barely enough to make the effort worthwhile, so that people don't farm them.
Zerging (Berzerking)... My pet peeve in PW's and games. First, the default movement should be a walk, not a run like in NWN.
If you run, it should have major penalties to things like Spot, Listen and Search.
Running should also increase your opponents chance to see or hear you and be able to prepare spells/ambushes, etc.
It should also cause you to fatigue, giving you penalties with your attack. Penalties that increase the more and longer you run.
The amount of time you can run, should be dependant on what type of armor you are wearing, and what weapons.
Seeing Full Plate and Tower Shield Fighters wielding Great Axes, Greatswords or Mauls one handed running around liek three year olds on a gallon of Mountain Dew should not occur, except for VERY short distances. (Read: Charging a Foe)
There is a time and place for Zerging, and it should be the starting few minutes of a combat, when it has the shock and awe effect it is designed for.
IF you truly believe this everything should be persistent as well and NOT instanced.
Also about the running thing your confusing encumbrance and how it works with your personal desires.
Here is the definition of 4th Edition Run and some information on Endurance showing it no longer is affected by speed, and moving up the Endurance difficulty examples to its top section for this:
Run
You can use an all-out sprint when you really need to cover ground fast. However, this is a dangerous tactic— you have to lower your guard to make your best speed, and you can’t attack very well.
RUN: MOVE ACTION
Speed + 2: Move up to your speed + 2. For example, if your speed is normally 6, you can move up to 8 squares when you run.
–5 Penalty to Attack Rolls: You have a –5 penalty to attack rolls until the start of your next turn.
Grant Combat Advantage: As soon as you begin running, you grant combat advantage to all enemies until the start of your next turn.
Provoke Opportunity Attacks: If you leave a square adjacent to an enemy, that enemy can make an opportunity attack against you.
Endurance
Armor Check Penalty
The Endurance skill is used to stave off ill effects and to push beyond normal physical limits. A creature that has training in Endurance can hold its breath for long periods of time, forestall the debilitating effects of hunger and thirst, and swim or tread water for extended periods. Some hazards—including extreme temperatures, violent weather, and diseases—require creatures to make Endurance checks to resist or delay debilitating effects.
Characters rarely use Endurance actively; the DM directs players to use it in response to certain hazards. Using the skill in that way requires no action, unless otherwise noted. See “Environmental Dangers” and “Disease” for some of the situations that require Endurance checks.
Quaff an entire stein of ale in one go (moderate DC)
Roll down a steep slope without taking damage (moderate DC)
Sustain a swift rowing pace for an extended period (hard DC)
ENVIROMENTAL DANGER
The Endurance skill determines how well a character can withstand such dangers. Every eight hours within an area of environmental danger, the character must succeed on an Endurance check. Each time a character fails, he loses one healing surge. If a character has no healing surges left when he fails a check, he loses hit points equal to his level.
The adventure sets the DC for the Endurance check. Here are some useful benchmarks. When designing your own environmental dangers, rely on the Difficulty Class and Damage by Level table and your common sense.
Condition Endurance DC
Severe weather 20
High altitude 21
Extreme altitude 26
Cold 22
Frigid cold 26
Heat 22
Stifling heat 26
Pervasive smoke or ash 26
Pervasive necromantic energy 31
If a character takes an extended rest while in an area of environmental danger, he recovers healing surges lost in combat but not those lost from failed Endurance checks. During the six hours that include extended rest, the character gets a +2 bonus to Endurance checks because he’s resting and not exerting himself.
If two or more environmental dangers apply at the same time (such as climbing a mountain in a snowstorm), characters make Endurance checks against each danger.
DISEASE
...
Disease Progression: Once you’re infected, make an Endurance check after each extended rest to see if you improve, worsen, or maintain your current condition. A disease specifies two target Endurance DCs: a lower DC to maintain and a higher DC to improve.
Maintain: If the check result beats the lower DC but doesn’t beat the higher one, your condition remains the same.
Improve: If the check result beats the higher DC, your condition improves—move one step to the left on the disease track.
Worsen: If the check result doesn’t beat either DC, your condition worsens—move one step to the right on the disease track.
Cure: When you reach the left edge of the track, you are cured and stop making Endurance checks.
Final State: When you reach the right edge of the track, the final state of the disease takes effect. Once the disease is in its final state, you no longer make Endurance checks to improve. Often, the only way to recover from the final state is through the Cure Disease ritual.
Heal Skill: An ally can use a Heal check in place of your Endurance check to help you recover from a disease, as described in the Player’s Handbook.
STARVATION, THIRST AND SUFFOCATION
When deprived of food, water, or air, the rule of three applies. An adventurer can handle three weeks without food, three days without water, and three minutes without air outside of strenuous situations.
After that, such deprivation is a significant test of a PCs’ stamina. At the end of the time period (three weeks, three days, or three minutes), the character must succeed on a DC 20 Endurance check.
Success buys the character another day (if hungry or thirsty), or round (if unable to breathe). Then the check is repeated at DC 25, then at DC 30, and so on. When a character fails the check, he loses one healing surge and must continue to make checks. A character without healing surges who fails a check takes damage equal to his level.
In strenuous situations, such as combat, going without air is much harder. A character holding his breath during underwater combat, for example, must make a DC 20 Endurance check at the end of his turn in a round where he takes damage.
As with environmental dangers, a character cannot regain healing surges lost to starvation, thirst, or suffocation until he eats a meal, drinks, or gains access to air again, respectively.
A character with 0 or fewer hit points who continues to suffer from one of these effects keeps taking damage as described above until he dies or is rescued
SWIMMING FOR AN HOUR OR MORE
A creature that does not have a swim speed and swims for more than an hour must make an Endurance check.
Action: Free action. The creature makes the check at the end of each hour of swimming.
DC: Use the appropriate DC from the Swim table (page 140) and increase it by 2 for each hour of swimming.
Success: The creature can continue making Athletics checks to swim.
Failure: The creature can’t make any further Athletics checks to swim until after an extended rest. In addition, the creature sinks 1 square and risks suffocation. The creature can still be dragged along by an ally at half speed.
IF you truly believe this everything should be persistent as well and NOT instanced.
Also about the running thing your confusing encumbrance and how it works with your personal desires.
Really, you cannot have Persistent and Instanced at the same time? For each character it is persistent, while in the Multi-Player multiverse, it is Instanced.
No single player would be able to go back through the same dungeon, until it is re-populated at a later level.
No, I am not confusing Encumbrance with my personal desires.
I am stating a physiological fact. If you run everywhere, even with no equipment, you will fatigue faster than if you walk. The more equipment you are carrying while you are running, the faster you will fatigue. Simple physiology.
I have run a half marathon in shorts, running shoes and t-shirt.
I have walked the same distance, wearing slightly more clothing (Long pants, long sleeves shirt, Hiking Biits, Hat and a Camelback with water.)
Guess which one I was exhausted doing, and was technically fatigued after the first mile, and which one I felt fine, with no exhaustion at all?
I have also run/walked 12 miles in under 3 hours, with full "Battle Rattle," (Consisting of Flak Jacket, Kevlar Helmet, Boots, BDU's, LBE, Ruck Sack with 45 lbs of gear, and a "Pig" (M-60 Machine Gun))
Guess which one I was the most exhausted after doing! Yep, the 12 mile Road March with Full Battle rattle. Took a couple of days to recover fully from that one.
Seeing some ****** running everywhere in full plate, with a tower shield, Battle axe and other equipment, and have no adverse affects over their counterpart rogue, wearing Leather Armor and carrying daggers who walked, when they meet the boss is just wrong.
The developers are closly following Wizards in regards to 4E gameplay.
Running has its own game mechanics in regards to penalties and benefits per turn running: the +2 to speed, the -5 to attack rolls, the granting of combat advantage and provoking opportunity attacks if leaving an adjacent square of an enemy when running.
Making additional penalities and/or benefits when there are already specific game modifiers for the running condition goes against what Cryptic plans to do when they will closely folow original 4E game mechanics whenever possible.
Whether one can imagine the penalties also represent the fatuige one will experience when running or it's decided the penalties for running no longer exist like they used to from the previous edition (or somewhere in the middle of these views,) housrule mods are not going to be done unless it's a necessity to port it over from tabletop to computer.
The developers are closly following Wizards in regards to 4E gameplay.
Running has its own game mechanics in regards to penalties and benefits per turn running: the +2 to speed, the -5 to attack rolls, the granting of combat advantage and provoking opportunity attacks if leaving an adjacent square of an enemy when running.
Making additional penalities and/or benefits when there are already specific game modifiers for the running condition goes against what Cryptic plans to do when they will closely folow original 4E game mechanics whenever possible.
Whether one can imagine the penalties also represent the fatuige one will experience when running or it's decided the penalties for running no longer exist like they used to from the previous edition (or somewhere in the middle of these views,) housrule mods are not going to be done unless it's a necessity to port it over from tabletop to computer.
DDO has this att penalty but in an mmo things never work out quite like you think seeing as you can't really make it turn based.
Really, you cannot have Persistent and Instanced at the same time? For each character it is persistent, while in the Multi-Player multiverse, it is Instanced.
No single player would be able to go back through the same dungeon, until it is re-populated at a later level.
No, I am not confusing Encumbrance with my personal desires.
I am stating a . If you run everywhere, even with no equipment, you will fatigue faster than if you walk. The more equipment you are carrying while you are running, the faster you will fatigue. Simple physiology.
I have run a half marathon in shorts, running shoes and t-shirt.
I have walked the same distance, wearing slightly more clothing (Long pants, long sleeves shirt, Hiking Biits, Hat and a Camelback with water.)
Guess which one I was exhausted doing, and was technically fatigued after the first mile, and which one I felt fine, with no exhaustion at all?
I have also run/walked 12 miles in under 3 hours, with full "Battle Rattle," (Consisting of Flak Jacket, Kevlar Helmet, Boots, BDU's, LBE, Ruck Sack with 45 lbs of gear, and a "Pig" (M-60 Machine Gun))
Guess which one I was the most exhausted after doing! Yep, the 12 mile Road March with Full Battle rattle. Took a couple of days to recover fully from that one.
Seeing some ****** running everywhere in full plate, with a tower shield, Battle axe and other equipment, and have no adverse affects over their counterpart rogue, wearing Leather Armor and carrying daggers who walked, when they meet the boss is just wrong.
Physiological fact my HAMSTER. Someone wearing full plate and using a tower shield in game most likely has higher str thus emulating real life (like you seem to want to do all the time) unlike wizzy in robes with low str.
What it come down to if you want realism why the hell are you playing a game that has wizards and monster etc in it?
Like has been said lets leave the HAMSTER house rules out of it. Trying to emulate fatigue in a mmo is just stupid.
Like i have said before why don't we emulate eating, pooping, constipation etc etc while we are at it, just for realism like you keep trying to ram down our throats.
As for persistence if i was really in Neverwinter and went into some caves where some monsters was hiding and killed it other hunters could not come and then kill it would they, hell maybe it might be a race to see which group of adventures found the cave first so THEY killed it.
Following your "reasoning" there should be NO instancing AT ALL.
You keep coming up with half arsed anecdotal reason why so n so would be good for the game. how about we stick to the core dnd rules and leave these house rules out if it.
Like i have said before why don't we emulate eating, pooping, constipation etc etc while we are at it, just for realism like you keep trying to ram down our throats.
...
You keep coming up with half arsed anecdotal reason why so n so would be good for the game. how about we stick to the core dnd rules and leave these house rules out if it.
Actually, there are penalties to move speed from wearing heavier armor iirc.
Plus, it would be endurance not strength, but let's not split hairs.
There is somewhat of a precedent in other games to relate encumbrance and fatigue to run speed. In NWN2 if you were carrying more than your capacity, you would be slowed (I think it was related to dex?) In Silent Hill (I know, way off genre) running for too long would cause adverse effects.
So it's not totally unheard of. It makes sense that a character that is weighed down with heavier armor would have a harder time moving around.
HOWEVER
This may deter people from playing classes that use heavier armor. Tanking is already hard enough, we don't want to scare people away from it at the get go.
Plus, it's entirely reasonable that a person could train extensively in just agility activities while wearing heavy armor- I'd think this would make them likely to resist the negative effects of wearing heavy/restrictive armor. I wouldn't expect back flips though.
A balance might be just having encumbrance, where if you've got too much stuff in your pockets, you're going to be weighed down.
Adventurers carry a lot of gear. When that quantity becomes extreme, it might be enough to slow you
down and otherwise hamper your capabilities. The amount you carry should rarely be an issue, and you don’t need to calculate the weight your character is hauling around unless it’s likely to matter.
More often, you’ll need to know how much weight you can push or drag along the ground—are you strong enough to slide the statue covering the trapdoor? This information is contained in your Strength score.
Multiply your Strength score by 10. That’s the weight, in pounds, that you can carry around without penalty. This amount of weight is considered a normal load.
Double that number (Strength × 20). That’s the maximum weight you can lift off the ground. If you try to carry that weight, though, you’re slowed. Carrying such a load requires both hands, so you’re not particularly effective while you’re doing so. This amount of weight is considered a heavy load.
Five times your normal load (Strength × 50) is the most weight you can push or drag along the ground. You’re slowed if you try to push or drag more weight than you can carry without penalty, and you can’t push or drag such a heavy load over difficult terrain. This amount of weight is referred to as your maximum drag load.
Your DM might rule that you can’t carry certain objects at full speed no matter what your Strength score is, just because they’re so bulky or unwieldy. Your DM can also ask you to make a Strength check to push or to lift something heavy in a stressful situation, such as in the middle of combat.
And there are the feats in regards to armor that eliminate the armor check penalties for skills/speed showing the "training" one can take to become accustomed to being "adapted" in the armor afterr a long period of time:
Armor Finesse
Benefit: You ignore the check penalty for wearing armor.
Heavy Armor Agility
Prerequisite: Strength 15 or Constitution 15
Benefit: You ignore the speed penalty for wearing heavy armor.
Comments
For gods sake please no.....if I have to see yet another MMO following the "gather 10 of these" or "kill 10 of these" half assed "quests" I'm gonna shoot someone.
We the player deserve better and you the developer can do better that this.
uh.. I didnt mention collect x ammount or kill x ammount.. sounds a little miss-interprited. Dungeons usually have 1 goal at the end, which would be the flag for completion... this was the idea behind it.
Go to dungeon because there is some rare item or mysterious monster ?
DnD is same thing when it comes to how quest look as you have in mmo the only reason why it looks better is because you go for one item not ten and quests are read by game master so they give you feeling of something more real.
I did watch several videos of dnd games and these with wizards of the coast also and quests they create are no different then quest that you have in any mmo but you never give a xxxt to read them.
For starters, in most if not all MMO you don't have quests that are purely diplomatic. You either has something to take somewhere or kill something. In DnD you can win purely by diplomacy, as in pc dnd games. MMO's are focused on huge worlds and lots of exploration - that's why diplomacy is rarely there.
Quests are totally different plain n simple. Go play DDO if your not grasping how different. For instance Deleras Tomb if you something precise.
With that said, in terms of CRPGs, my favorite of all time was Planescape Torment, which only allowed us to choose from one race and three classes. Instead, it provided rich, interesting environments and NPCs and multiple ways of solving problems appropriate for the PC's ability scores. This created the feeling of being immersed into a living world rather than just accomplishing objectives in a game, and also added a lot of replay value. With regards to Neverwinter, this is more a game content issue than a game engine issue, of course, and will largely be in the hands of module creators. However, I think it's critical that we have the tools to make such dynamic choices available to module creators in the most accessible way possible. Dialog trees need to be able to include options that only appear when the PC meets certain prerequisites, which might include skill trainings, skill levels, races, classes, feats, or even equipment worn. (NPC: "I see you're carrying a bow. Our hunting party could use an extra hand, if you have the time.") Scripted events should allow conditional checks based on any of the above, on previous character actions, or on random chance.
Finally, and most importantly, please don't fall into the typical MMORPG trap of making us grind through repetitive content. Nothing will kill my interest in a game faster than that. Smashing barrels is not a compelling gameplay experience, and in no way contributes to a feeling of immersion in an RPG world. Having us repeat the same adventures multiple times in order to accumulate xp/gold/favor/etc. might seem like a viable way to keep us playing longer, but it will have the effect of cheapening the experience of playing those adventures and of making the game boring. Instead, it's better to do the adventure just once per character, so that the next time we play that adventure it will be with a new character, with a different play style, and after some length of time has passed.
Not only fun, they would keep us reading and interested.
The failure to challenge us mentally leads to repeated movement rewards. If you can get ahead by faster clicking without reading, the game is a failure before the shrinkwrap comes off.
Setting value on achievements that permanently affect our stats is incentive. If its well written, (read this future foundry users), it gives something worthwhile.
I also am a big fan of skill challenges, and look forward to it being used as an option to combat for rewards/XP.
DDO did an admirable job having possible non-combat secondary goals (one could get XP for) in their mods, but the lack of the skill challenge system until the 4th edition DM2 release made it not an option to initially build into the 3.5 DDO MMORPG game engine (when Wizards was already very restrictive on allowable IP content changes.) That noted, Bioware seemed to preserve the porting to the computer game very well from the tabletop rules so I have no idea why Turbine made their online game so hybrid (compared to the NWN2 original tabletop D&D feel of the game.)
On both a purist level and alternate to combat level, The Temple of Elemental Evil did a great job of preserving the original tabletop game feel and utilizing skills/roleplaying/negotiations for branched outcomes in regards to plot. However, this is just a suggestion what can work on the theme of this game's redevelopment. I do understand ToEE was a single-player game, so the branched outcomes using skills and pathing options would not be so easy, and falls under the same open-ended multi-player difficulties as The Elder Scrolls' Skyrim and Dragon Age II being "converted" to multiplayer.
On the other hand, Star Wars: The Old Republic has shown the MMORPG roleplaying/pathing option can be done; just be wary not to focus on it at the sacrifice of the entire game's quality (as some feel regarding that game.)
just the sheer fact that there has been NO communication in many many months no footage nothing. i can just see the kind of service will get once the game goes live,
Good bye too all hope too a great Dnd GAME R.I.P Neverwinter - Doom:(
You'll only need to wait out for 2-3 more months. Stormshade has given that late March/earl April that there will be info given out.
Fixed that for ya
(An old DDO joke variant when somebody said good bye and doom.)
Read the Dev tracker. They have responded both recently and consistantly. Even if you don't count January 16, 2012, they have responded three times in the last three days! Oh, and a Developer response was in this thread on January 10, 2012 posted here.
And I'm touched this thread is going 11 pages strong at the time of this reply, but there are other threads in this forum they have responded to more recently.
So you're so busy talking about stuff you didn't bother to check on, speaking fallacy instead of enlightenment.
IMO, You and I have a very diffrent idea as too what dev communication is,
and i have keep up with dev tracker,
and have been playing DDO full time for 5 yrs (so no you cant have my stuff):D
Still waiting for some useful info from the dev team, regardless, from what ive seen and read about point click combat and .. blah im done .. DDO my have tierd me out but it's still by far the best fast past combat DND game out there and now with there new licence with wotc too call them selves DDO with out the ebberon sticker attached , they are going too be the dnd video game for the future. - Doom
Well, I saw months and I listed days. Please either update your prior post which was "fixed" by another poster or acknowledge your error stating NO communication was done in "many many" months.
If you wish to ammend your posting to say nothing substantial, I may consider that. Elsewise, it's a bad post on what was descriptively done in contrast to said post. I cut off the goodbye all/doom part, since you're still here. But if you wish to go, I or anybody else will not stop you and respect your decision to depart should you wish that.
ALL classes should be relevant and desired for groups. I would like to see flexibility where you will see a wide variety of characters running around. The big fail in a way is that in PnP you could have a 5 str, but that didn't mean you were gimp. The dice roll was the dice roll.(ok, this may have changed since I never played any rules past 2nd edition)
No eternal grinding for stupid ingredients to make items. Sure make it difficult to get the ingredients, make it take us across the realm, but I don't want to run the same quest over and over to get some stupid chipmunk funk.
If there are quest rewards make them worthwhile. I should be looking forward to seeing what my reward is.
If a quest is to kill someone/thing how can we rerun it? Not sure if it is possible but every now and then I would have something else fill the void created by players removing the pests that are in a dungeon.
No useless skills. If you give us a skill we can use, make it something that is useful more then 50% of the time. It doesn't have to be vital, just make it useful.
Make zerging useless.
Once you try and implement class balance there will always be someone complaining. State it early and often that there is no balancing.
You can better use that time to create and develop new content.
Sorry, but the 4th edition setup of all classes casting "spells" of their class (martial for fighter's, arcane for wizards, etc,) was done so everybody would feel in combat they have something to do and is a "built in class balancing feature" of (the non computer game) D&D.
Now, if the Neverwinter MMO game was released and we don't want people to "rebalance" classes down the line to "fix it," I fully agree on that. No good has ever come (to the best of my memory,) from "rebalancing MMO classes."
Im pretty sure what he was saying is that the devs shouldnt take it upone them sleves to to try and reblance classes away from the rule set prior to launch and i cant say i disagree.
DnD isnt about class balance, in fact its about class imbalance. By purposefully unbalancing the classes you create a situation where you need others to help you accomplich things. DnD is not and should never be a solo act. Thats what WoW is for
I've had several issues with past D&D games, and they seem to revolve around 2 main issues: social interaction and the unlimited gameplay potential of a tabletop paper&pencil based game being limited by the shortcomings of a programmed electronic experience.
I've played P&P before and it was always with a small cluster of friends. I played NWN 1 and 2 with friends and alone. MMOs are generally played with strangers. I don't like strangers. I play video games in part because I don't have to talk to anyone I don't want to. In an MMO, there's not a lot I can do to avoid the yammering of idiots. Yes, you can switch off zonechat, but if a troll starts hopping on my floater while I'm trying to fish, I can't switch him off (blasted Hordies . . . I blame Loche). How do we stop this? I have no idea. Have an IQ test to buy the game? Is there such a thing as a maturity test? Would it involve speaking to actual women?
On tabletop, you can literally choose to do anything you want. If my players wanted to adopt a dire rat, they could. I wouldn't recommend it, but you could. If my players wanted to go to the (well-named) Wyvern Cliffs as lvl 1 characters, they could. I wouldn't recommend that either. But you had the option. In a video game, even with a DM firing off powers hither and yon, you can't just decide to do whatever whim should come up. You can't program for everything that could possibly come up on tabletop.
I don't know how either of these difficulties can be overcome. They both require either a creative team of massive ability or near infinite processing capacity. Likely both. But they are problems I've seen in previous games, including D&D games and MMOs, that I just couldn't get out of my head. If you were to solve either of them, not only would I be guaranteed to buy the game, but I would happily recommend it on my blog to all 3 of my regular readers.
Sounds like you are the DM I would like to have. But I feel your pain but I just don't know how one could do so unless you had control of a room and would ban trouble makers from ruining the fun of others.
Yes....
I agree with you about re-spawning bad guys with the same stupid minions in a scenario (Used scenario to cover Dungeons, Caverns, Outdoor, City, Castle, Ship, etc).
I would LOVE to see where once you run through a dungeon, you cannot revisit the same dungeon for several levels, when, voila, it suddenly has new occupants, with new defenses, and new treasures.
Yes, you should have "Grinding" areas, that allow people to make some exp, but they should provide little to no treasure, and the exp should be level appropriate and barely enough to make the effort worthwhile, so that people don't farm them.
Zerging (Berzerking)... My pet peeve in PW's and games. First, the default movement should be a walk, not a run like in NWN.
If you run, it should have major penalties to things like Spot, Listen and Search.
Running should also increase your opponents chance to see or hear you and be able to prepare spells/ambushes, etc.
It should also cause you to fatigue, giving you penalties with your attack. Penalties that increase the more and longer you run.
The amount of time you can run, should be dependant on what type of armor you are wearing, and what weapons.
Seeing Full Plate and Tower Shield Fighters wielding Great Axes, Greatswords or Mauls one handed running around liek three year olds on a gallon of Mountain Dew should not occur, except for VERY short distances. (Read: Charging a Foe)
There is a time and place for Zerging, and it should be the starting few minutes of a combat, when it has the shock and awe effect it is designed for.
IF you truly believe this everything should be persistent as well and NOT instanced.
Also about the running thing your confusing encumbrance and how it works with your personal desires.
Really, you cannot have Persistent and Instanced at the same time? For each character it is persistent, while in the Multi-Player multiverse, it is Instanced.
No single player would be able to go back through the same dungeon, until it is re-populated at a later level.
No, I am not confusing Encumbrance with my personal desires.
I am stating a physiological fact. If you run everywhere, even with no equipment, you will fatigue faster than if you walk. The more equipment you are carrying while you are running, the faster you will fatigue. Simple physiology.
I have run a half marathon in shorts, running shoes and t-shirt.
I have walked the same distance, wearing slightly more clothing (Long pants, long sleeves shirt, Hiking Biits, Hat and a Camelback with water.)
Guess which one I was exhausted doing, and was technically fatigued after the first mile, and which one I felt fine, with no exhaustion at all?
I have also run/walked 12 miles in under 3 hours, with full "Battle Rattle," (Consisting of Flak Jacket, Kevlar Helmet, Boots, BDU's, LBE, Ruck Sack with 45 lbs of gear, and a "Pig" (M-60 Machine Gun))
Guess which one I was the most exhausted after doing! Yep, the 12 mile Road March with Full Battle rattle. Took a couple of days to recover fully from that one.
Seeing some ****** running everywhere in full plate, with a tower shield, Battle axe and other equipment, and have no adverse affects over their counterpart rogue, wearing Leather Armor and carrying daggers who walked, when they meet the boss is just wrong.
Running has its own game mechanics in regards to penalties and benefits per turn running: the +2 to speed, the -5 to attack rolls, the granting of combat advantage and provoking opportunity attacks if leaving an adjacent square of an enemy when running.
Making additional penalities and/or benefits when there are already specific game modifiers for the running condition goes against what Cryptic plans to do when they will closely folow original 4E game mechanics whenever possible.
Whether one can imagine the penalties also represent the fatuige one will experience when running or it's decided the penalties for running no longer exist like they used to from the previous edition (or somewhere in the middle of these views,) housrule mods are not going to be done unless it's a necessity to port it over from tabletop to computer.
DDO has this att penalty but in an mmo things never work out quite like you think seeing as you can't really make it turn based.
Its already been said this will be action based.
Physiological fact my HAMSTER. Someone wearing full plate and using a tower shield in game most likely has higher str thus emulating real life (like you seem to want to do all the time) unlike wizzy in robes with low str.
What it come down to if you want realism why the hell are you playing a game that has wizards and monster etc in it?
Like has been said lets leave the HAMSTER house rules out of it. Trying to emulate fatigue in a mmo is just stupid.
Like i have said before why don't we emulate eating, pooping, constipation etc etc while we are at it, just for realism like you keep trying to ram down our throats.
As for persistence if i was really in Neverwinter and went into some caves where some monsters was hiding and killed it other hunters could not come and then kill it would they, hell maybe it might be a race to see which group of adventures found the cave first so THEY killed it.
Following your "reasoning" there should be NO instancing AT ALL.
You keep coming up with half arsed anecdotal reason why so n so would be good for the game. how about we stick to the core dnd rules and leave these house rules out if it.
Actually, there are penalties to move speed from wearing heavier armor iirc.
Plus, it would be endurance not strength, but let's not split hairs.
There is somewhat of a precedent in other games to relate encumbrance and fatigue to run speed. In NWN2 if you were carrying more than your capacity, you would be slowed (I think it was related to dex?) In Silent Hill (I know, way off genre) running for too long would cause adverse effects.
So it's not totally unheard of. It makes sense that a character that is weighed down with heavier armor would have a harder time moving around.
HOWEVER
This may deter people from playing classes that use heavier armor. Tanking is already hard enough, we don't want to scare people away from it at the get go.
Plus, it's entirely reasonable that a person could train extensively in just agility activities while wearing heavy armor- I'd think this would make them likely to resist the negative effects of wearing heavy/restrictive armor. I wouldn't expect back flips though.
A balance might be just having encumbrance, where if you've got too much stuff in your pockets, you're going to be weighed down.
And there are the feats in regards to armor that eliminate the armor check penalties for skills/speed showing the "training" one can take to become accustomed to being "adapted" in the armor afterr a long period of time: