I rather play it later and they should only release the game after it has at the very least one BG...
Not having any kind of PVP will turn-off ALOT of potencial players...
Here in Portugal many of my freinds already said they won't even try the game if it doesn't have PVP at launch...
I for one may try it... But won't play for long if there isn't some good PVP options, one can only do PVE for some time before getting extremely bored and move on.
PvP will be introduced early 2013 as it would not be ready for launch for late 2012.
As noted earlier and by developers, the healing surges which did not port well or make sense to players when done in "potion form" were removed and replaced with potions and spells, which have not been mentioned in detail how they work or what their limitations are (if any.)
Finally, (going back to item creation) I realized the crafting may or may not make items that work separately than the way 4E items work, but should be similar to how all the Neverwinter game powers work. But if it is done in any way like DDO's, please start fixing it now, thank you.
After going into wikipedia to learn what all this 4e games are all about, etc...
I have come to the conclusion that it will absolutly not be used in NW,
at least not completly because some of the ideas are suicidal to implement in an sucessfull MMO, like only regaining your HP after a hole day if you don't have potion....
Some of the ideas in 4e seem nice, but others are simply ridiculous for an MMO so i don't expect to see them implemented in this game.
Remenber this is a action MMO, not some board game or co-op multiplayer
and hope NW team rethinks it's aproach of launching the game without PVP.
Wut? you must not play D&D because 4e is the fastest HP recovery ever that has been in D&D. Every iteration before 4e, HP recovery by normal rest was much, much slower.
Wut? you must not play D&D because 4e is the fastest HP recovery ever that has been in D&D. Every iteration before 4e, HP recovery by normal rest was much, much slower.
Please do not defend 4e as some kind of a "better system" by putting down older editions. That's just insulting to many of us that have spent decades playing pnp D&D. If this forum turns into a "4e is the greatest edition of all" website, this game will have no chance to succeed. People that dislike 4e but are willing to maybe give Neverwinter a go, may keep right on walking.
I understand you believe 4e was the best, which is fine. We all have our reasons for having a preferred edition of d&d. 2nd edition was my personal favorite because it incorporated everything just right in me eyes...
However I respect pretty much everyone's reasons why they have a preferred edition. I'd like to see this forum bring together the great many folks that have played pnp, and see them appreciate others experience at the table.
Most MMO playerbases couldnt do it... including DDO's. How about we rise to another level, and become the game community that could.
Please do not defend 4e as some kind of a "better system" by putting down older editions. That's just insulting to many of us that have spent decades playing pnp D&D. If this forum turns into a "4e is the greatest edition of all" website, this game will have no chance to succeed. People that dislike 4e but are willing to maybe give Neverwinter a go, may keep right on walking.
I understand you believe 4e was the best, which is fine. We all have our reasons for having a preferred edition of d&d. 2nd edition was my personal favorite because it incorporated everything just right in me eyes...
However I respect pretty much everyone's reasons why they have a preferred edition. I'd like to see this forum bring together the great many folks that have played pnp, and see them appreciate others experience at the table.
Most MMO playerbases couldnt do it... including DDO's. How about we rise to another level, and become the game community that could.
Andre how about not misreading what was stated. I never claimed 4e was better, I stated that healing in 4e is the fastest of all previous editions. That is a fact, daily healing done in every iteration was a lot slower. There is nothing untrue about that statement as older editions you did heal much slower naturally.
Also, please don't try and act like I have never played any version before. I have. I've been playing since Advanced and quite well have stated I prefer 2nd edition. Now you're being insulting and you aren't bothering reading at this point because you jumped the gun on looking at something. And to be blunt, you were being very disrespectful there since you know full well I've stated in the past that I've been playing for decades, not to mention you didn't actually read what I stated.
On the contrary, I did read what you said. I simply don't believe you are telling enough of the story to substantiate healing surges. There's more to healing surges than how "fast" they are.
I will apologize for jumping on your last comment, even though I thought it was partially justified. For example, you jumped on Cyber Troll for his opinion of 4e crafting, then you jumped on anunnakireturn because he thinks that many rules of 4e wont be used as written in Neverwinter because it would be "suicidal" in the same thread. That kinda talk makes you sound like a crusader or fanboi of 4e, without "taking in" what other people's opinions are who have different experiences than your own. If I have misunderstood your MO then I'm truly sorry.
Lets stay on target. Healing surges.
If you stick to healing surges exactly as written anunnakireturn's right, it doesnt work in a video game format, period.
Lets take a look at healing surges in 4e:
A healing surge heals approximately 1/4th your max health when you use it. There are restrictions on when you can use a healing surge (such as in battle), and some effects can cause you to lose a healing surge without healing (poison, failure in a skill challenge, etc).
The number of healing surges you can use per day depends on your class and constitution modifier. The class you choose sets the base number and you gain a bonus from your constitution, as well as any bonuses from feats or other effects. Any time your constitution modifier rises, your number of surges rises as well.
You cannot simply use a healing surge any time you please during combat. The following situations allow you to use one:
1 You use your second wind.
2 A power (either used by you or an ally) allows you to spend a healing surge. See the section below for a list of these powers.
3 A power, effect, or item requires that you spend a healing surge as a cost (such as to renew an item's power, or to use a potion); doing so does not usually heal HP, at least not the normal amount. Potions use a healing surge to heal a set amount of HP independent of your surge value, be it higher or lower.
You generally regain all your healing surges after completing an extended rest. Some effects like poison or failures in skill challenges (or any other conditions set by your DM) may prevent you from regaining all your surges.
Sound good? Ok heres were things really differ/get bonky:
So everyone can heal in 4e. Even the "dumb" fighter with 6 wisdom.
That's not a whole lot of healing for a major quest/raid if you think about it... things get far more complicated as the party gets attacked and loses surges... especially in 4e where you are basically getting hit each time, and to add insult to injury AC is really DR (Damage Reduction) so the amount of healing required in this game probably superceded the ability of the healing surges..
Many just dont like the concept of healing surges.. others do.. but Cryptic apparently thought it didnt work correctly either for the quests they were developing.
Point taken. What works well on a balanced non-live PnP game doesn't at times hold up on a 2 to 3 times per encounter faster MMO-game version. And calling them surges and having them look like potions can get confusing as Dev-mentioned.
Now if they upped the surge ratio to the PC level ration (60 for 20 Pnp levels,) maybe it could have worked, but I trust Cryptic that it simply didn't work and they went back to classic potions and "healing spells."
All this written, I agree that 4E had the FASTEST healing options of all the standard (non house ruled) editions. Not even going to touch it if it was the best or worst or average.
Well, there are times when you make a stupid comment and want to go back and delete it...
How can I delete my post? Is it possible to delete a post and not just edit it?
Alas, the boards do not have a delete option, but simply edit your "silly" comment away and note that the "comment was deleted." Sorry this setup Cryptic chose does not have a delete post option though.
If you stick to healing surges exactly as written anunnakireturn's right, it doesnt work in a video game format, period.
I have to strongly disagree with this statement. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt that healing surges don't work well for Neverwinter, but to say that they wouldn't work well in any video game of any type? That, I can't accept.
I have to strongly disagree with this statement. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt that healing surges don't work well for Neverwinter, but to say that they wouldn't work well in any video game of any type? That, I can't accept.
Yes, I meant specifically in a D&D adventure game. Other games, who knows.
D&D as you know it, if things dont "feel right", based on years and sometimes decades of playing a certain way, people are going to complain.
That's what makes designing an official D&D product so difficult, most especially an MMO. And just think Nekoatl, hell, the game isnt even out yet!
PS: I think devs are genius for separating themselves recently by making it clear this is not a direct port of 4e rules.
Yes, I meant specifically in a D&D adventure game. Other games, who knows.
Well... I'm not sure what exactly you mean by an "adventure" game, as that genre has been blurred over the decades, but I'll say flat out that I think healing surges would work quite well in a turn-based strategy RPG that faithfully follows the 4e rules.
D&D as you know it, if things dont "feel right", based on years and sometimes decades of playing a certain way, people are going to complain.
True, there's a tendency for D&D players to settle in on a rules edition as a favorite and complain about the other rules editions that do things differently. But, in the case of 4e, many people never gave it a chance... they just read/heard some things that were different from what they were used to, and turned their nose up. In my opinion, if people who do this don't like a game mechanic without ever giving it an honest chance, then I don't think it's fair to site that as a reason why the mechanic itself is flawed.
Well... I'm not sure what exactly you mean by an "adventure" game, as that genre has been blurred over the decades, but I'll say flat out that I think healing surges would work quite well in a turn-based strategy RPG that faithfully follows the 4e rules.
Ok, a D&D MMO. There are only 2. DDO and [soon to be released (r)] Neverwinter. It would never work in DDO, it apparently will not work in Neverwinter, and I cant see it working in any D&D game likely to come out in the future.
Sure it could work in turn based play, but I just dont see any major developer getting behind a turn based D&D game based on 4e. Its just never going to happen (why? - because there's just not enough people that care about 4e specifically). Now Im a huge fan of turn based D&D products, i played and love all of them. In a few years when 5e ships, I would LOVE to see a turn-based game based on those rules... but that's another argument for later in the decade
True, there's a tendency for D&D players to settle in on a rules edition as a favorite and complain about the other rules editions that do things differently. But, in the case of 4e, many people never gave it a chance... they just read/heard some things that were different from what they were used to, and turned their nose up. In my opinion, if people who do this don't like a game mechanic without ever giving it an honest chance, then I don't think it's fair to site that as a reason why the mechanic itself is flawed.
Sure it fair. Remember, those of us that have played a certain way for decades know what we like. We get used to certain establishments. When you rip that core out and build new establishments and call it the same thing, you need to expect folks are going to be turned off.
If its doesn't walk like a duck anymore, doesn't quack like a duck anymore, sure you can call it a duck, but that doesn't mean everyone else will
Can you imagine pen and paper game where u say u want use recovery pontion and then GM look 5 min on watch to say when pontion ends ?
No, there are some elements of any rpg computer game that will never be in pen and paper game because it would be pointless to have it. It works other way also. There is stuf that will never be in PnP game so people that wants copy pnp to computer grounds will never accept stuf that's normal in any other computer rpg game.
I do not want to blame anyone but sometimes we have to chose best solutions based on common sense.
In my view going on mmo it's like taking that duck from lake to desert. Duck can adapt and be different from other ducks or die but die as a true duck. xD
Can you imagine pen and paper game where u say u want use recovery pontion and then GM look 5 min on watch to say when pontion ends ?
No, there are some elements of any rpg computer game that will never be in pen and paper game because it would be pointless to have it. It works other way also. There is stuf that will never be in PnP game so people that wants copy pnp to computer grounds will never accept stuf that's normal in any other computer rpg game.
I do not want to blame anyone but sometimes we have to chose best solutions based on common sense.
In my view going on mmo it's like taking that duck from lake to desert. Duck can adapt and be different from other ducks or die but die as a true duck. xD
Umm, mostly good point but potions are not timed in game or in computer games. Powers are. And in regards to healing surges, you can use as many surges as you wish in rest until you have none left, then you need to extended rest. In combat, powers grant access beyond one/encounter. Since it's a body thing, it doesn't follow item rules.
But the point is strong. You have to adapt to make things work from PnP to computer/live action. Whether you recognize it as the product adapted from is another story.
Sure it fair. Remember, those of us that have played a certain way for decades know what we like. We get used to certain establishments. When you rip that core out and build new establishments and call it the same thing, you need to expect folks are going to be turned off.
I agree that such feelings of resistance to change are to be expected... that's part of human nature. But, I still say that they don't constitute valid evidence that another way of doing things is bad.
Let's take the to-hit roll with regards to Neverwinter as an example. The to-hit roll has been at the heart of every edition of PnP D&D and most D&D computer games as well. But, it looks like it won't be a part of Neverwinter, and that completely changes the game experience.
Now, the to-hit roll is a great game mechanic, as I think we can both agree... and I'm not happy to read that it probably won't be a part of Neverwinter. But, apparently the developers at Cryptic feel that this game will be more fun without it. I don't agree, but let's face it... they, who have experience with both PnP rules and their game engine are in a better position to make this call than I, who have experience with 4e rules but not with their game engine, am.
Now, once Neverwinter is finished and I have a chance to play it, I may find that my concerns were justified and I hate it... or, I may be pleasantly surprised and find that, while it's not what I was hoping for, it's actually a lot of fun. The point is that until I try it, I don't have the right experience to make that kind of call... and if I try to make the call anyway, then anyone who's listening to me should do so with a healthy degree of skepticism.
I agree that such feelings of resistance to change are to be expected... that's part of human nature. But, I still say that they don't constitute valid evidence that another way of doing things is bad.
Let's take the to-hit roll with regards to Neverwinter as an example. The to-hit roll has been at the heart of every edition of PnP D&D and most D&D computer games as well. But, it looks like it won't be a part of Neverwinter, and that completely changes the game experience.
Now, the to-hit roll is a great game mechanic, as I think we can both agree... and I'm not happy to read that it probably won't be a part of Neverwinter. But, apparently the developers at Cryptic feel that this game will be more fun without it. I don't agree, but let's face it... they, who have experience with both PnP rules and their game engine are in a better position to make this call than I, who have experience with 4e rules but not with their game engine, am.
Now, once Neverwinter is finished and I have a chance to play it, I may find that my concerns were justified and I hate it... or, I may be pleasantly surprised and find that, while it's not what I was hoping for, it's actually a lot of fun. The point is that until I try it, I don't have the right experience to make that kind of call... and if I try to make the call anyway, then anyone who's listening to me should do so with a healthy degree of skepticism.
Respectfully, Cryptic hasn't said there will be no to-hit roll and the game was altered for the demo. it may or may not be there.
But I fully support the last paragraph as how we know something. Thank you.
I agree that such feelings of resistance to change are to be expected... that's part of human nature. But, I still say that they don't constitute valid evidence that another way of doing things is bad.
Let's take the to-hit roll with regards to Neverwinter as an example. The to-hit roll has been at the heart of every edition of PnP D&D and most D&D computer games as well. But, it looks like it won't be a part of Neverwinter, and that completely changes the game experience.
Now, the to-hit roll is a great game mechanic, as I think we can both agree... and I'm not happy to read that it probably won't be a part of Neverwinter. But, apparently the developers at Cryptic feel that this game will be more fun without it. I don't agree, but let's face it... they, who have experience with both PnP rules and their game engine are in a better position to make this call than I, who have experience with 4e rules but not with their game engine, am.
Now, once Neverwinter is finished and I have a chance to play it, I may find that my concerns were justified and I hate it... or, I may be pleasantly surprised and find that, while it's not what I was hoping for, it's actually a lot of fun. The point is that until I try it, I don't have the right experience to make that kind of call... and if I try to make the call anyway, then anyone who's listening to me should do so with a healthy degree of skepticism.
Im mostly in agreement with ya, Nekoatl. In fact, in that last paragraph,you show that we are both here, even though theres some major game mechanics issues we probably wont like. But we are still here, eager to play.
You are right, noone knows for sure how a video game will play until you sit down and play.
I will say that does not always apply, and most especially in pnp. To me 4e is not D&D, and the more I study the intricate details, the less i like it.
The good news however Nekoatl, which is what I think is a silver lining, is even if one does NOT like 4e, they may very well like this game. THAT is what I think we should be looking at discussing in the future. How do we bring those to the game that have written off 4e? I think we can... if we respect each other - regardless of who the heck likes or dislikes any edition of tabletop d&d.
Dated but doubtful they did a major revamp of their combat system and the demo just confirms it.
Eurogamer: How are you interpreting the Dungeons & Dragons rules?
Jack Emmert: I would say we're being inspired by D&D, not slavishly trying to copy. Where possible we're trying to use the abilities and powers and monsters and some of their behaviours. But it's not going to be a one-to-one correspondence.
For instance, there's no two-hit roll. We've used boons in a slightly different manner. Hit-points aren't exactly the same. But, by and large, the structure is similar. It's not turn-based.
Eurogamer: Oh, it's action-based? Are there discernible turns - is it all based on a dice-roll system?
Jack Emmert: There are dice rolls going on, but it's not turn-based in the sense that you can pause it. You target something, you attack, you swing. The random aspect is going to be how much damage you do, and that's affected by your feats and abilities.
It's not an action-RPG, but it's also not straight D&D where you roll a die to hit.
Im mostly in agreement with ya, Nekoatl. In fact, in that last paragraph,you show that we are both here, even though theres some major game mechanics issues we probably wont like. But we are still here, eager to play.
Well... to be honest, I'm not really eager to play. Actually, checking these forums has become a part of my daily routine, but... I appreciate your enthusiasm.
You are right, noone knows for sure how a video game will play until you sit down and play.
I will say that does not always apply, and most especially in pnp. To me 4e is not D&D, and the more I study the intricate details, the less i like it.
Well... we all have our ideas about what the essential features of D&D are, and even I, in another thread, said that without to-hit rolls, it's not D&D. These kinds of convictions are, of course, very much a matter of opinion, so there's no point in trying to say that some of them are right and others are wrong.
However, as far as not knowing how game mechanics work until you play them, I do think it applies to PnP mechanics as well. I'm reminded of an article I read a long time ago (when 4e was new) in which the author commented about how he strongly disagreed with many of WotC's design decisions, but could forgive them because they were so much fun to play with.
The good news however Nekoatl, which is what I think is a silver lining, is even if one does NOT like 4e, they may very well like this game. THAT is what I think we should be looking at discussing in the future. How do we bring those to the game that have written off 4e? I think we can... if we respect each other - regardless of who the heck likes or dislikes any edition of tabletop d&d.
Well... 4e was designed to address specific shortcomings in 3.x, including widespread complaints of class imbalances and overpowered multiclassing. I think it succeeded at those goals, but at the same time introduced some new (and in my opinion fun) game mechanics that are hard to wrap our heads around in an RP sense.
The healing surges are a good example of this... what are they supposed to represent, exactly? I don't know if there's really a good answer to that question, but then again, in an old core book (from 2nd edition iirc) there is a discussion about how hit points don't make any sense, but that they are a necessary game mechanic. I mean, if your level 20 character has a max of 100hp and loses 99 of them, he's unhindered in any way... but if he loses 1 more, he's completely incapacitated or dead? Really? The only difference is that the hit points mechanic has propagated throughout the world of RPGs so thoroughly that we don't even question it anymore, whereas with the healing surges, we're seeing them for the first time in 4e.
Neverwinter is going through a similar kind of process, where they're changing and introducing mechanics to fit certain goals to try to make a fun game system. Are they going to make changes that some people won't like? Sure. Are they going to make changes that some people won't accept? Very likely. Does that mean the changes will not be well chosen? Not at all.
So, to answer your question, how can we bring players who hate 4e to Neverwinter? Well... unfortunately, if a player is truly unwilling to give a game system a chance, (s)he will not, regardless of how much someone else tells him/her that it's actually a lot of fun. But, I think Cryptic/PW have the right idea in making it free to play and avoiding barriers to entry. This, in my opinion, is one mistake that WotC made that hurt 4e quite a bit... compared to 3.x, in which they released a lot of information to the public, they've guarded 4e jealously. I can understand, of course, given the competition that has sprung up in the form of Pathfinder... but history teaches many lessons, and one of those lessons is that opening up a system tends to increase its popularity (which is why IBM-compatible PCs became so popular despite having a bass-ackward chip architecture).
Dated but doubtful they did a major revamp of their combat system and the demo just confirms it.
Eurogamer: How are you interpreting the Dungeons & Dragons rules?
Jack Emmert: I would say we're being inspired by D&D, not slavishly trying to copy. Where possible we're trying to use the abilities and powers and monsters and some of their behaviours. But it's not going to be a one-to-one correspondence.
For instance, there's no two-hit roll. We've used boons in a slightly different manner. Hit-points aren't exactly the same. But, by and large, the structure is similar. It's not turn-based.
Eurogamer: Oh, it's action-based? Are there discernible turns - is it all based on a dice-roll system?
Jack Emmert: There are dice rolls going on, but it's not turn-based in the sense that you can pause it. You target something, you attack, you swing. The random aspect is going to be how much damage you do, and that's affected by your feats and abilities.
It's not an action-RPG, but it's also not straight D&D where you roll a die to hit.
Yeah I remember reading that then. Confusing as heck if there was no to ht at all or in the background. At first you think it's not there, then you thik you simply can't see it or pause it. Years later, it's not 100% clear either, and nobody talked about the limitations Atari put on the game to make it the co-op it almost became. I was duped like everybody else.
But I'll wait and see like everybody else as well. SS said now he's back from resting from PAX East, the updates are going to be much more frequent and I think that's likely.
... that's most likely because video games, most especially MMOs has a stigma of focusing far too much on hack n slash.
We all know this game will be for the most part hack n slash. So focusing on other aspects of the game I feel will be very appreciated. Here's some of my ideas:
1. Avoid the Leeeeroooooy!!! factor. Combat techniques besides hack n slash. Useful, powerful crowd control spells can make questing a lot more fun for many.
Don't brush off the combat just yet. "Hack n' slash" is a bit of an oversimplification with our combat system, and even though it's fast paced, it feels very much like a strategic D&D encounter. So far each class the design team as turned out has a distinct and strategically satisfying feel
2. REMOVE the silly Batman/Mortal Combat sparkly combat animations. Spending 4-6 hours of watching flashing lights every swing is going to get old fast. Just cutting back on the color intensity and size of the effect would go a long way to improve this issue.
I would say the videos don't do the effects justice, so we will see what the community says when they get a chance to run the game on their rigs. Also, it will probably help when there's more than one video to watch over and over
3. Create a crafting system that does not break the game economy/auction house. Crafting built into the character, selectable at character creation. DDO failed here, Im hoping you folks will succeed at doing it right.
4. Real guild leader tools. Strong guilds make a strong game. Guild leaders should have an alts database so we know who's alts are who's! There should be an easy way for the guild leader to know if someone left the guild... as well as how long its been since they've "been away".
Noted. BTW have you taken a look at the guild/fleet system in STO? I'm curious what you like/don't like about the guild systems in our other games.
5. A real multi-level dungeon mapping system that can be resized and/or turned off. DDOs mapping was a joke, and still cant handle multiple level dungeons. Naturally locations should remain blacked out if you havent visited. You should also be able to attach notes (think sticky notes or google earth) to any locations, and even save maps.
6. Bards should be master of crowd control, sonic and illusions - More spells that distract and fool the enemy. Mirror image, disguise self, dancing lights, ventriloquism etc. This ties into my wish for more strategy and creative solutions in quest solving.
Dancing lights and ventriloquism? But you were just commenting on the flashy effects?
Seriously though if/when we add a bard class it would be anything but ordinary, especially with the kind of combat we have. hmm... that could get very interesting
7. Alignment consequences - Having choices that open and close future doors. Having some items/quests/paths that can only be gained by certain alignments (beyond needing a 20 UMD to wield Pure Good etc). Making a choice at a point in your character development that will define your future like taking an item that will make an enemy later or making a sacrifice that will gain an ally in the future.
8. Vary quest types - A lot of the fun of P&P was having political quests, outdoor sprawling quests, military battles etc. Quests feel too contained and boxed. I realize that this is a factor of the video game format but some things could be done. Like for example, a military quest where you command troops and give simple orders before the quest starts (where they are deployed, what stance they take (defensive/aggressive etc).
9. Stealth to mean something. What about rangers and rogues? Tracking and outdoor skills aren't used in DDO effectively or at all. That was the ranger's primary strength in P&P.
Stealth currently gives rogues a combat advantage and allows them to approach and engage a battle when it's most advantageous to them. We're still working out what it means outside of combat though.
10. Community involvement. Why stop at the foundry? How about player designed server events. <--- contests/awards for the best designed event that goes to development/storytelling etc.
I'm all for this! The Foundry will hopefully evolve into a system that will allow the community to contribute much more than quests and campaigns, especially when persistent maps enter the picture.
11. We know we are getting a few races. How about the Gnome race? Gnomes are naturally friendly, highly social and fun loving people. They are respected by Elves for their communion with nature and knowledge of arcane magic, admired by Halflings for their humor, and sought out by Dwarves for their gemcutting skills. (masters of illutions) make great bards!
12. Don't let exploiters ruin this game. Stand by your EULA and Code of Conduct.[/COLOR] Make the rules clear, and stand firm. If they break the rules, get rid of them.
Obviously it's a bit too early for us to answer many of these, but thanks for the well thought out post!
Obviously it's a bit too early for us to answer many of these, but thanks for the well thought out post!
in reading the green blurbs i kept seeing the same essential response; we hear you but we're doing it our way anyway.
good luck with that, it made STO exactly the star trek mmo we never wanted. I know im being hard on you, mapolis, but im hoping to jostle you a little here. The D&D crowd is talking about this game -and it isnt good. Well beyond what you're getting on these forums, gamers are just disappointed and expecting a failure. Most of my closest table top friends say they arent even planning on trying it. Im trying to give you a real wake up call here, before its finally just too late.
in reading the green blurbs i kept seeing the same essential response; we hear you but we're doing it our way anyway.
good luck with that, it made STO exactly the star trek mmo we never wanted. I know im being hard on you, mapolis, but im hoping to jostle you a little here. The D&D crowd is talking about this game -and it isnt good. Well beyond what you're getting on these forums, gamers are just disappointed and expecting a failure. Most of my closest table top friends say they arent even planning on trying it. Im trying to give you a real wake up call here, before its finally just too late.
Admenus, you have got to realize this too, that devs can not just concentrate on d&d crowd. Its a hard reality, I know, but you need those other MMO people to create a crowd too, for the game to be crowded enough for profit. So best D&D game would be an execution of pnp which is interesting enough to pull others too. If pnp crowd were enough to sustain a MMO, we would have many of our titles with same exact rulesets in MMO by now.
Admenus, you have got to realize this too, that devs can not just concentrate on d&d crowd. Its a hard reality, I know, but you need those other MMO people to create a crowd too, for the game to be crowded enough for profit. So best D&D game would be an execution of pnp which is interesting enough to pull others too. If pnp crowd were enough to sustain a MMO, we would have many of our titles with same exact rulesets in MMO by now.
in other words, its just another wow clone. whoopee.
in other words, its just another wow clone. whoopee.
It's really not fair to say that at this point. Granted, it won't be a true D&D game in a purist sense, and it very well may not even capture the feel of D&D, but it could still become a much more fun game than WoW, especially if the designers carefully avoid WoW's achilles heel (grind).
in other words, its just another wow clone. whoopee.
*Writes a will, "WoW is not the only MMO"*
*gathers unstable fireblast globes in a crate*
*sits on the crate*
*Lights a cigar and throws it in*
*facepalms*
in other words, its just another wow clone. whoopee.
jeeez, from the video they have out it ALREADY looks better then wow, actual free movement during combat like blocking and being able to dodge blows, no auto attack.....hmmmm I wouldn't call it a wow clone either.
Comments
PvP will be introduced early 2013 as it would not be ready for launch for late 2012.
As noted earlier and by developers, the healing surges which did not port well or make sense to players when done in "potion form" were removed and replaced with potions and spells, which have not been mentioned in detail how they work or what their limitations are (if any.)
Finally, (going back to item creation) I realized the crafting may or may not make items that work separately than the way 4E items work, but should be similar to how all the Neverwinter game powers work. But if it is done in any way like DDO's, please start fixing it now, thank you.
Wut? you must not play D&D because 4e is the fastest HP recovery ever that has been in D&D. Every iteration before 4e, HP recovery by normal rest was much, much slower.
Please do not defend 4e as some kind of a "better system" by putting down older editions. That's just insulting to many of us that have spent decades playing pnp D&D. If this forum turns into a "4e is the greatest edition of all" website, this game will have no chance to succeed. People that dislike 4e but are willing to maybe give Neverwinter a go, may keep right on walking.
I understand you believe 4e was the best, which is fine. We all have our reasons for having a preferred edition of d&d. 2nd edition was my personal favorite because it incorporated everything just right in me eyes...
However I respect pretty much everyone's reasons why they have a preferred edition. I'd like to see this forum bring together the great many folks that have played pnp, and see them appreciate others experience at the table.
Most MMO playerbases couldnt do it... including DDO's. How about we rise to another level, and become the game community that could.
Andre how about not misreading what was stated. I never claimed 4e was better, I stated that healing in 4e is the fastest of all previous editions. That is a fact, daily healing done in every iteration was a lot slower. There is nothing untrue about that statement as older editions you did heal much slower naturally.
Also, please don't try and act like I have never played any version before. I have. I've been playing since Advanced and quite well have stated I prefer 2nd edition. Now you're being insulting and you aren't bothering reading at this point because you jumped the gun on looking at something. And to be blunt, you were being very disrespectful there since you know full well I've stated in the past that I've been playing for decades, not to mention you didn't actually read what I stated.
On the contrary, I did read what you said. I simply don't believe you are telling enough of the story to substantiate healing surges. There's more to healing surges than how "fast" they are.
I will apologize for jumping on your last comment, even though I thought it was partially justified. For example, you jumped on Cyber Troll for his opinion of 4e crafting, then you jumped on anunnakireturn because he thinks that many rules of 4e wont be used as written in Neverwinter because it would be "suicidal" in the same thread. That kinda talk makes you sound like a crusader or fanboi of 4e, without "taking in" what other people's opinions are who have different experiences than your own. If I have misunderstood your MO then I'm truly sorry.
Lets stay on target. Healing surges.
If you stick to healing surges exactly as written anunnakireturn's right, it doesnt work in a video game format, period.
Lets take a look at healing surges in 4e:
A healing surge heals approximately 1/4th your max health when you use it. There are restrictions on when you can use a healing surge (such as in battle), and some effects can cause you to lose a healing surge without healing (poison, failure in a skill challenge, etc).
The number of healing surges you can use per day depends on your class and constitution modifier. The class you choose sets the base number and you gain a bonus from your constitution, as well as any bonuses from feats or other effects. Any time your constitution modifier rises, your number of surges rises as well.
You cannot simply use a healing surge any time you please during combat. The following situations allow you to use one:
1 You use your second wind.
2 A power (either used by you or an ally) allows you to spend a healing surge. See the section below for a list of these powers.
3 A power, effect, or item requires that you spend a healing surge as a cost (such as to renew an item's power, or to use a potion); doing so does not usually heal HP, at least not the normal amount. Potions use a healing surge to heal a set amount of HP independent of your surge value, be it higher or lower.
You generally regain all your healing surges after completing an extended rest. Some effects like poison or failures in skill challenges (or any other conditions set by your DM) may prevent you from regaining all your surges.
Sound good? Ok heres were things really differ/get bonky:
Base surges per class:
Cleric 7
Fighter 9
Paladin 10
Ranger 6
Rogue 6
Warlock 6
Warlord 7
Wizard 6
So everyone can heal in 4e. Even the "dumb" fighter with 6 wisdom.
That's not a whole lot of healing for a major quest/raid if you think about it... things get far more complicated as the party gets attacked and loses surges... especially in 4e where you are basically getting hit each time, and to add insult to injury AC is really DR (Damage Reduction) so the amount of healing required in this game probably superceded the ability of the healing surges..
Many just dont like the concept of healing surges.. others do.. but Cryptic apparently thought it didnt work correctly either for the quests they were developing.
Now if they upped the surge ratio to the PC level ration (60 for 20 Pnp levels,) maybe it could have worked, but I trust Cryptic that it simply didn't work and they went back to classic potions and "healing spells."
All this written, I agree that 4E had the FASTEST healing options of all the standard (non house ruled) editions. Not even going to touch it if it was the best or worst or average.
How can I delete my post? Is it possible to delete a post and not just edit it?
Alas, the boards do not have a delete option, but simply edit your "silly" comment away and note that the "comment was deleted." Sorry this setup Cryptic chose does not have a delete post option though.
I have to strongly disagree with this statement. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt that healing surges don't work well for Neverwinter, but to say that they wouldn't work well in any video game of any type? That, I can't accept.
Yes, I meant specifically in a D&D adventure game. Other games, who knows.
D&D as you know it, if things dont "feel right", based on years and sometimes decades of playing a certain way, people are going to complain.
That's what makes designing an official D&D product so difficult, most especially an MMO. And just think Nekoatl, hell, the game isnt even out yet!
PS: I think devs are genius for separating themselves recently by making it clear this is not a direct port of 4e rules.
Well... I'm not sure what exactly you mean by an "adventure" game, as that genre has been blurred over the decades, but I'll say flat out that I think healing surges would work quite well in a turn-based strategy RPG that faithfully follows the 4e rules.
True, there's a tendency for D&D players to settle in on a rules edition as a favorite and complain about the other rules editions that do things differently. But, in the case of 4e, many people never gave it a chance... they just read/heard some things that were different from what they were used to, and turned their nose up. In my opinion, if people who do this don't like a game mechanic without ever giving it an honest chance, then I don't think it's fair to site that as a reason why the mechanic itself is flawed.
Comments in yellow/green.
No, there are some elements of any rpg computer game that will never be in pen and paper game because it would be pointless to have it. It works other way also. There is stuf that will never be in PnP game so people that wants copy pnp to computer grounds will never accept stuf that's normal in any other computer rpg game.
I do not want to blame anyone but sometimes we have to chose best solutions based on common sense.
In my view going on mmo it's like taking that duck
Umm, mostly good point but potions are not timed in game or in computer games. Powers are. And in regards to healing surges, you can use as many surges as you wish in rest until you have none left, then you need to extended rest. In combat, powers grant access beyond one/encounter. Since it's a body thing, it doesn't follow item rules.
But the point is strong. You have to adapt to make things work from PnP to computer/live action. Whether you recognize it as the product adapted from is another story.
I agree that such feelings of resistance to change are to be expected... that's part of human nature. But, I still say that they don't constitute valid evidence that another way of doing things is bad.
Let's take the to-hit roll with regards to Neverwinter as an example. The to-hit roll has been at the heart of every edition of PnP D&D and most D&D computer games as well. But, it looks like it won't be a part of Neverwinter, and that completely changes the game experience.
Now, the to-hit roll is a great game mechanic, as I think we can both agree... and I'm not happy to read that it probably won't be a part of Neverwinter. But, apparently the developers at Cryptic feel that this game will be more fun without it. I don't agree, but let's face it... they, who have experience with both PnP rules and their game engine are in a better position to make this call than I, who have experience with 4e rules but not with their game engine, am.
Now, once Neverwinter is finished and I have a chance to play it, I may find that my concerns were justified and I hate it... or, I may be pleasantly surprised and find that, while it's not what I was hoping for, it's actually a lot of fun. The point is that until I try it, I don't have the right experience to make that kind of call... and if I try to make the call anyway, then anyone who's listening to me should do so with a healthy degree of skepticism.
Respectfully, Cryptic hasn't said there will be no to-hit roll and the game was altered for the demo. it may or may not be there.
But I fully support the last paragraph as how we know something. Thank you.
Im mostly in agreement with ya, Nekoatl. In fact, in that last paragraph,you show that we are both here, even though theres some major game mechanics issues we probably wont like. But we are still here, eager to play.
You are right, noone knows for sure how a video game will play until you sit down and play.
I will say that does not always apply, and most especially in pnp. To me 4e is not D&D, and the more I study the intricate details, the less i like it.
The good news however Nekoatl, which is what I think is a silver lining, is even if one does NOT like 4e, they may very well like this game. THAT is what I think we should be looking at discussing in the future. How do we bring those to the game that have written off 4e? I think we can... if we respect each other - regardless of who the heck likes or dislikes any edition of tabletop d&d.
Article of no to hit die roll
Dated but doubtful they did a major revamp of their combat system and the demo just confirms it.
Eurogamer: How are you interpreting the Dungeons & Dragons rules?
Jack Emmert: I would say we're being inspired by D&D, not slavishly trying to copy. Where possible we're trying to use the abilities and powers and monsters and some of their behaviours. But it's not going to be a one-to-one correspondence.
For instance, there's no two-hit roll. We've used boons in a slightly different manner. Hit-points aren't exactly the same. But, by and large, the structure is similar. It's not turn-based.
Eurogamer: Oh, it's action-based? Are there discernible turns - is it all based on a dice-roll system?
Jack Emmert: There are dice rolls going on, but it's not turn-based in the sense that you can pause it. You target something, you attack, you swing. The random aspect is going to be how much damage you do, and that's affected by your feats and abilities.
It's not an action-RPG, but it's also not straight D&D where you roll a die to hit.
Well... to be honest, I'm not really eager to play. Actually, checking these forums has become a part of my daily routine, but... I appreciate your enthusiasm.
Well... we all have our ideas about what the essential features of D&D are, and even I, in another thread, said that without to-hit rolls, it's not D&D. These kinds of convictions are, of course, very much a matter of opinion, so there's no point in trying to say that some of them are right and others are wrong.
However, as far as not knowing how game mechanics work until you play them, I do think it applies to PnP mechanics as well. I'm reminded of an article I read a long time ago (when 4e was new) in which the author commented about how he strongly disagreed with many of WotC's design decisions, but could forgive them because they were so much fun to play with.
Well... 4e was designed to address specific shortcomings in 3.x, including widespread complaints of class imbalances and overpowered multiclassing. I think it succeeded at those goals, but at the same time introduced some new (and in my opinion fun) game mechanics that are hard to wrap our heads around in an RP sense.
The healing surges are a good example of this... what are they supposed to represent, exactly? I don't know if there's really a good answer to that question, but then again, in an old core book (from 2nd edition iirc) there is a discussion about how hit points don't make any sense, but that they are a necessary game mechanic. I mean, if your level 20 character has a max of 100hp and loses 99 of them, he's unhindered in any way... but if he loses 1 more, he's completely incapacitated or dead? Really? The only difference is that the hit points mechanic has propagated throughout the world of RPGs so thoroughly that we don't even question it anymore, whereas with the healing surges, we're seeing them for the first time in 4e.
Neverwinter is going through a similar kind of process, where they're changing and introducing mechanics to fit certain goals to try to make a fun game system. Are they going to make changes that some people won't like? Sure. Are they going to make changes that some people won't accept? Very likely. Does that mean the changes will not be well chosen? Not at all.
So, to answer your question, how can we bring players who hate 4e to Neverwinter? Well... unfortunately, if a player is truly unwilling to give a game system a chance, (s)he will not, regardless of how much someone else tells him/her that it's actually a lot of fun. But, I think Cryptic/PW have the right idea in making it free to play and avoiding barriers to entry. This, in my opinion, is one mistake that WotC made that hurt 4e quite a bit... compared to 3.x, in which they released a lot of information to the public, they've guarded 4e jealously. I can understand, of course, given the competition that has sprung up in the form of Pathfinder... but history teaches many lessons, and one of those lessons is that opening up a system tends to increase its popularity (which is why IBM-compatible PCs became so popular despite having a bass-ackward chip architecture).
Yeah I remember reading that then. Confusing as heck if there was no to ht at all or in the background. At first you think it's not there, then you thik you simply can't see it or pause it. Years later, it's not 100% clear either, and nobody talked about the limitations Atari put on the game to make it the co-op it almost became. I was duped like everybody else.
But I'll wait and see like everybody else as well. SS said now he's back from resting from PAX East, the updates are going to be much more frequent and I think that's likely.
Obviously it's a bit too early for us to answer many of these, but thanks for the well thought out post!
in reading the green blurbs i kept seeing the same essential response; we hear you but we're doing it our way anyway.
good luck with that, it made STO exactly the star trek mmo we never wanted. I know im being hard on you, mapolis, but im hoping to jostle you a little here. The D&D crowd is talking about this game -and it isnt good. Well beyond what you're getting on these forums, gamers are just disappointed and expecting a failure. Most of my closest table top friends say they arent even planning on trying it. Im trying to give you a real wake up call here, before its finally just too late.
Admenus, you have got to realize this too, that devs can not just concentrate on d&d crowd. Its a hard reality, I know, but you need those other MMO people to create a crowd too, for the game to be crowded enough for profit. So best D&D game would be an execution of pnp which is interesting enough to pull others too. If pnp crowd were enough to sustain a MMO, we would have many of our titles with same exact rulesets in MMO by now.
in other words, its just another wow clone. whoopee.
It's really not fair to say that at this point. Granted, it won't be a true D&D game in a purist sense, and it very well may not even capture the feel of D&D, but it could still become a much more fun game than WoW, especially if the designers carefully avoid WoW's achilles heel (grind).
God I loved that game. And I am sad it won't get a sequel.
*Writes a will, "WoW is not the only MMO"*
*gathers unstable fireblast globes in a crate*
*sits on the crate*
*Lights a cigar and throws it in*
*facepalms*
jeeez, from the video they have out it ALREADY looks better then wow, actual free movement during combat like blocking and being able to dodge blows, no auto attack.....hmmmm I wouldn't call it a wow clone either.
Why can't you people just let him sulk in his nerd ragy juices? THERE IS NO REASONING IN THE DARK ROOM!