From Beta to about Mod 3? Rhix' Daily Dungeon quest for level 60 characters was stuck on Dread Vault (what my signature refers to...) after that point, it was changed to allow completion of any epic dungeon.
The reward was 1k RAD IIRC, though maybe slightly more.
Leadership today doesnt generate Rough AD though. If it did, many if us wouldn't care about this current issue. Back then, I hit the refining cap every day through leadership and invoking. Any RAD bonus from a dungeon would have been wasted. Now, the bonus is greater and noy taking ul the same slot as what Leadership grants, AD in currency form.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
Entry Level, Easier Level 70 Cloak Tower EPIC dungeon that rewards rare gear or a little better. Better if you gave players something they could use or salvage from it. Get rid of allowing level 70s to queue for leveling dungeons. That's one of the legacies of mod 6 anyway. Could even start letting rare gear drop from mobs at max level like it did before mod 6.
At least make L70s queing for levelling dungeons *enter a level 70 version of the dungeon*.
Very simple: Same dungeon, same maps, same objectives, same EVERYTHING, monsters are level 70 instead of whatever their normal level is, and drop loot like every other level 70 monster in the game. The ending chest has level 70 loot and drops some basic L70 seals.
Just level the monsters up to 70. It'll still be easy compared to MC or VT, but at least it won't be as frustratingly dull for L70 players and as as annoying for levelling players who have L70s stomping their dungeon flat.
Seriously, try it on preview. For a week, set the level of the levelling dungeons to 70, all monsters 70, all players 70, everything, and see if that's not just 10000% better than sending level 70s into level 18 content.
That will not help. You also had players that would roll last and press need, get the item, then leave the party asap. lol That is a loot ninja.
That's why everyone should be rolling Need on all items, always. There are no class-specific drops worth caring about, so "greed" and "pass" are the same thing.
From Beta to about Mod 3? Rhix' Daily Dungeon quest for level 60 characters was stuck on Dread Vault (what my signature refers to...) after that point, it was changed to allow completion of any epic dungeon.
The reward was 1k RAD IIRC, though maybe slightly more.
Leadership today doesnt generate Rough AD though. If it did, many if us wouldn't care about this current issue. Back then, I hit the refining cap every day through leadership and invoking. Any RAD bonus from a dungeon would have been wasted. Now, the bonus is greater and noy taking ul the same slot as what Leadership grants, AD in currency form.
Well, in mod 5, if I remember correctly, you would not get the Daily Dungeon AD reward unless you did VT or MC. And people told me I needed 15k GS for it. Which meant I needed tier 2 epic gear, decent enchantments, most of the boons, and maybe even some artifact gear (just belts and cloaks back then).
Of course, you didn't actually need all that to complete it, it's just that people wanted fast runs.
0
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited September 2017
I wanna say it was 4k for the Daily Dungeon quest for level 60+, like it was 4k for the Daily Foundry quest for level 60+ (do 4 qualifying quests... this iteration of Daily Foundry might have kicked in at a lower level).
Which is a lovely segway into a thought I've been having, if you want to wrangle us into doing content you considered underused by chaining rewards to it, when are you putting some semblance of rewards back into the Foundry? Hmm?
Edit: I am absolutely 100% serious about this, I probably wouldn't have a peep of issues with random queues if there were also some AD rewards for playing daily-qualifying Foundry quests again. But I am only speaking for myself.
@asterdahl If you want to clean this mess, there is a way: Change dungeon quests from stronghold so you automatically will get 10 shards for the first two dungeons/ skirmishes you passed a day. This, and ONLY this, will be a way to calm the community a bit. Maybe.
Did any of you play this game during mod 5 or before? Please share with the class which epic dungeons you could do for a Daily Dungeon AD bonus reward.
But you could get AD from invocation, leadership, selling looted gear, back then.
Those were the days. I used to love running the GG dungeons and getting BIS gear to sell. Only issues were loot ninjas, I can see this coming back with a vengeance. If TonG drops one mark that needs to be rolled on, it will be dog eat dog.
Disable kicking from party once the last boss is defeated.
That will not help. You also had players that would roll last and press need, get the item, then leave the party asap. lol That is a loot ninja.
Oh, right. But I don't think it's hard to program us the ability to have greed only parties. A lot of other games have that option.
That will not help. You also had players that would roll last and press need, get the item, then leave the party asap. lol That is a loot ninja.
That's why everyone should be rolling Need on all items, always. There are no class-specific drops worth caring about, so "greed" and "pass" are the same thing.
Yes, I need on everything unless I notice someone new who thinks it's polite to greed.
* The new anti-leaver penalty; is it being applied to all dungeons or just randoms?
All queues. Keep in mind that in any given queue, half of the players could have come from random queues and half could have queued manually. That's the benefit of the system for even those who are queuing manually.
* Do you still think the leaver penalty is a good idea? As a person who hardly ever leaves a run, I would rather someone who wants to leave can leave and the rest of us can get on with it, rather than have them troll the group or not join in to deliberately elicit a votekick.
Certainly the situation you describe will happen. However, we're confident it will happen less often than people deliberately vote-kicking to suspend the leaver penalty so they can leave when a queue they don't like appears. The leaver penalty is something we have wanted to turn back on in general as we want people to be serious about attempting something before they queue for it, and not simply leave if everyone is not 14k+.
With random queues in places, however, it is absolutely necessary. If it were not in effect, many players would join an epic dungeon queue and leave immediately if they did not get EToS, even if it potentially took them more time to leave and reroll repeatedly than the difference in runtime for whatever they were dropped in to.
We will certainly be monitoring the levels of abuse of players demanding a vote kick. If someone is being hostile or demanding a vote kick in this way be sure to report this as it would qualify as harassment. If you want to leave a queue, you will need to leave normally and suffer the penalty.
* The only time I leave a group is if a player is being offensive in chat or trolling the group - this means I now have to stay and put up with it. Yes, I can block/report them, but do we really want to go that route?
If a player is harassing you, please initiate a vote kick and select harassment as the reason. We also do urge you to report them so we can take further action as necessary.
* Will the vote require a majority (3/5) or a full vote (4/5)?
Vote kick and vote abandon require a simple majority wherein the initiator is automatically counted as a vote for the action. In the case of vote kick, the kickee is automatically counted as a vote against.
* Currently in levelling dungeons there is a 15 minute wait before you can votekick someone. As a run is usually completed in 5 minutes, it means players either quit or have to wait 10 mins at the door if someone is deliberately holding the group up. Can this be shortened to a more reasonable length?
We'll look into this, at the moment we plan to have the vote kick delay on a new member set to 5 minutes, but it's possible that could be adjusted.
Im a returning player, so luckily I have some AD hoarded from my previous play time and recent runs. But man, I'd absolutly hate to be a new player right now... Just wow.
I think there's a bit of confusion about how these changes affect new players. In terms of leveling up, it's easier than ever thanks to the XP bonuses from random queues, this will especially speed things up 60-70 as the values are very high for those ranges.
Upon reaching level 70, you will now only need to run 1 random skirmish and 1 random dungeon to earn the same daily AD bonus as before. Additionally, if you queue for an epic dungeon to work on earning seals, whatever you pick, there will be more players than ever filling into that dungeon so the queue will pop faster, and many of those players will be at least 11k.
Additionally, if you have yet to clear that dungeon, everyone who has will be notified that they will receive a new player bonus if the dungeon is completed successfully on the order of thousands of AD, which will be a motivation to make sure the dungeon is cleared even with a new player.
The issue is that, even for a brand new level 70 character, running pre-70 dungeons is not compelling content. This issue gets more and more severe as a player gears up, and creates a second issue, in that further encouraging level 70 players to queue for low level dungeons means that pre-70 dungeons will no longer be compelling content for low level players either.
We haven't seen the final Patron system for speeding up alt dungeon unlocking yet, but for a brand new toon, unlocking FBI and MSP is a minimum of a month of running dailies, assuming that player can handle SKT and RD as a brand new 70.
Most brand new 70s cannot solo SKT or RD content until they spend weeks gathering IL400+ gear and R7-8 enchants and boons from easier campaigns.
In fact, I know literally no one who has begun SKT and RD campaigns instantly upon reaching level 70. New players start with Tyranny of Dragons, Elemental Evil and Sharandar, (which takes them 2-3 hours a day total for several weeks), then add Dread Ring and Well of Dragons, then add Icewind Dale, then go to SKT and RD only when those are mostly complete.
There's a lot of newer "catch-up" gear, and this is wonderful, but almost none of it is instantly available for new players. They don't have hundreds of spare trade bars sitting around, they don't have a few hundred thousand AD, they don't have 25000 guild marks. They may not even have a guild. Almost universally, these "catch up" item sets are being used for alts, not for new players.
Adding additional incentive for level 70 characters to run boring-AF low level content and ruin actual low-level players' dungeon experience, and simultaneously gating getting appropriately rewarded for Malabog's Castle behind literal months of effort unlocking FBI and MSP combined to be a series of incredibly bizarre decisions that really cannot be defended.
8
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
If you want to clean this mess, there is a way: Change dungeon quests from stronghold so you automatically will get 10 shards for the first two dungeons/ skirmishes you passed a day. This, and ONLY this, will be a way to calm the community a bit. Maybe.
Good grief that's an awfully good idea and follows the KISS principle really well. (I think it's a Temple quest that puts an Influence reward in running Malabog, which is another sticky point for many.)
I wanna say it was 4k for the Daily Dungeon quest for level 60+, like it was 4k for the Daily Foundry quest for level 60+ (do 4 qualifying quests... this iteration of Daily Foundry might have kicked in at a lower level).
Which is a lovely segway into a thought I've been having, if you want to wrangle us into doing content you considered underused by chaining rewards to it, when are you putting some semblance of rewards back into the Foundry? Hmm?
Edit: I am absolutely 100% serious about this, I probably wouldn't have a peep of issues with random queues if there were also some AD rewards for playing daily-qualifying Foundry quests again. But I am only speaking for myself.
At the very least, let us get rare gear from the chests in the Foundry. How about rare gear and a few rank 5s or something? Or bring back AD rewards, but it has to take at least 20-30 minutes to complete the foundry quest. There could also be higher AD rewards for more difficult foundry quests that take longer.
@asterdahl If you want to clean this mess there is a way - change the stronghold clerics quests so you automatically will get 10 shards for the first two passed dungeons/ skirmishes a day.
Yeah, any dungeons or skirmishes, any three campaign quests completed for shards. Maybe more shards if you actually do the recommended dungeon, skirmish, campaign quest of the day. Or how about this? Five shards for doing whatever you want, ten shards for doing the recommended mission?
Like many other's, the only thing I bother with dungeons is because game is very stingy on AD from other sources. Dungeons and skimishes are practically the only source. With current changes, earned AD per time will be drastically reduced.
I'll either will be put in to content in which I'll be dead weight for the group (CN and harder). So I'll waste my time and time of other people.
Or I'll get half of AD reward from dungeon (salvage only). And I consider previous AD reward as somewhat low for time spent.
I'll likely stop doing dungeons with my support and DPS characters. Currently I queue a lot with heals as they get queue fast and I could support group through eToS and easier dungeons just fine. But CN and more complex content cause a problem for me.
So I expect that total amount of people that queue will drop dramatically, and there will be less support chars (some almost guaranted AD will become long and probable AD). I'll will possibly do some lottery and I will leave with penality if it would be dungeon I cannot handle yet waiting for next day to draw chances again. Some people would even drop from game (I'll likely just pause the game doing leadership and some dailies and weaklies in uncompleted campaign). I just hope Cryptic will do some changes with mod 13 (Jan 2018?) seeing people discourgaged from dungeons and leaving.
* The new anti-leaver penalty; is it being applied to all dungeons or just randoms?
All queues. Keep in mind that in any given queue, half of the players could have come from random queues and half could have queued manually. That's the benefit of the system for even those who are queuing manually.
* Do you still think the leaver penalty is a good idea? As a person who hardly ever leaves a run, I would rather someone who wants to leave can leave and the rest of us can get on with it, rather than have them troll the group or not join in to deliberately elicit a votekick.
Certainly the situation you describe will happen. However, we're confident it will happen less often than people deliberately vote-kicking to suspend the leaver penalty so they can leave when a queue they don't like appears. The leaver penalty is something we have wanted to turn back on in general as we want people to be serious about attempting something before they queue for it, and not simply leave if everyone is not 14k+.
With random queues in places, however, it is absolutely necessary. If it were not in effect, many players would join an epic dungeon queue and leave immediately if they did not get EToS, even if it potentially took them more time to leave and reroll repeatedly than the difference in runtime for whatever they were dropped in to.
We will certainly be monitoring the levels of abuse of players demanding a vote kick. If someone is being hostile or demanding a vote kick in this way be sure to report this as it would qualify as harassment. If you want to leave a queue, you will need to leave normally and suffer the penalty.
* The only time I leave a group is if a player is being offensive in chat or trolling the group - this means I now have to stay and put up with it. Yes, I can block/report them, but do we really want to go that route?
If a player is harassing you, please initiate a vote kick and select harassment as the reason. We also do urge you to report them so we can take further action as necessary.
* Will the vote require a majority (3/5) or a full vote (4/5)?
Vote kick and vote abandon require a simple majority wherein the initiator is automatically counted as a vote for the action. In the case of vote kick, the kickee is automatically counted as a vote against.
* Currently in levelling dungeons there is a 15 minute wait before you can votekick someone. As a run is usually completed in 5 minutes, it means players either quit or have to wait 10 mins at the door if someone is deliberately holding the group up. Can this be shortened to a more reasonable length?
We'll look into this, at the moment we plan to have the vote kick delay on a new member set to 5 minutes, but it's possible that could be adjusted.
edit (how did the quote miss the blockquote lol?)
Cool, 5 minute timer on voting is good and I like the previously mentioned 5 minute reconnect timer.
Will you be monitoring both 'kickers and kickees'? It occurs to me that anyone who queues with 2 friends could get into the old habit of booting the 2 others for various reasons, be it any rollable loot, item level discrimination etc.
And thanks for the reply. Whilst I personally would prefer to let leavers just leave, I understand the logic behind the move and hope it works out.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Im a returning player, so luckily I have some AD hoarded from my previous play time and recent runs. But man, I'd absolutly hate to be a new player right now... Just wow.
I think there's a bit of confusion about how these changes affect new players. In terms of leveling up, it's easier than ever thanks to the XP bonuses from random queues, this will especially speed things up 60-70 as the values are very high for those ranges.
Upon reaching level 70, you will now only need to run 1 random skirmish and 1 random dungeon to earn the same daily AD bonus as before. Additionally, if you queue for an epic dungeon to work on earning seals, whatever you pick, there will be more players than ever filling into that dungeon so the queue will pop faster, and many of those players will be at least 11k.
Additionally, if you have yet to clear that dungeon, everyone who has will be notified that they will receive a new player bonus if the dungeon is completed successfully on the order of thousands of AD, which will be a motivation to make sure the dungeon is cleared even with a new player.
The issue is that, even for a brand new level 70 character, running pre-70 dungeons is not compelling content. This issue gets more and more severe as a player gears up, and creates a second issue, in that further encouraging level 70 players to queue for low level dungeons means that pre-70 dungeons will no longer be compelling content for low level players either.
We haven't seen the final Patron system for speeding up alt dungeon unlocking yet, but for a brand new toon, unlocking FBI and MSP is a minimum of a month of running dailies, assuming that player can handle SKT and RD as a brand new 70.
Most brand new 70s cannot solo SKT or RD content until they spend weeks gathering IL400+ gear and R7-8 enchants and boons from easier campaigns.
In fact, I know literally no one who has begun SKT and RD campaigns instantly upon reaching level 70. New players start with Tyranny of Dragons, Elemental Evil and Sharandar, (which takes them 2-3 hours a day total for several weeks), then add Dread Ring and Well of Dragons, then add Icewind Dale, then go to SKT and RD only when those are mostly complete.
There's a lot of newer "catch-up" gear, and this is wonderful, but almost none of it is instantly available for new players. They don't have hundreds of spare trade bars sitting around, they don't have a few hundred thousand AD, they don't have 25000 guild marks. They may not even have a guild. Almost universally, these "catch up" item sets are being used for alts, not for new players.
Adding additional incentive for level 70 characters to run boring-AF low level content and ruin actual low-level players' dungeon experience, and simultaneously gating getting appropriately rewarded for Malabog's Castle behind literal months of effort unlocking FBI and MSP combined to be a series of incredibly bizarre decisions that really cannot be defended.
I say we get rid of allowing lvl 70s to queue for leveling dungeons period.
Actually, I've been thinking that the game might start introducing new players to the idea that they might like to group to do campaign quests. This is an mmorpg, there's nothing wrong with not being able to do everything by yourself. Things that people can't handle by themselves can be handled with a partner or a larger group. Problem is that 1-60 gets people so used to soloing. But the game could start slowly introducing new players to the idea that it's better to group to do content at or around when they hit 70.
There's a lot of newer "catch-up" gear, and this is wonderful, but almost none of it is instantly available for new players.
Players can still run epic content manually to obtain seals of the protector, which can in turn be used to obtain relic armor which is more than sufficient to progress through any of the currently available campaigns.
My point was not that new players can instantly skip to 11k, but that there is actually a reason for them to manually run epic contents they are eligible for to work on advancing to 11k. The point of epic dungeons is not exclusively daily AD bonuses, and you do not need to be 11k to manually queue for something.
I'm a smoker, so I don't like to group for normal quests because I take frequent breaks. But for those of you non-smokers, I don't see anything wrong with forming groups to do SKT and RD. That's what guilds are for, right? Helping each other?
> @asterdahl said: > * The new anti-leaver penalty; is it being applied to all dungeons or just randoms? > > > All queues. Keep in mind that in any given queue, half of the players could have come from random queues and half could have queued manually. That's the benefit of the system for even those who are queuing manually. > * Do you still think the leaver penalty is a good idea? As a person who hardly ever leaves a run, I would rather someone who wants to leave can leave and the rest of us can get on with it, rather than have them troll the group or not join in to deliberately elicit a votekick. > > > Certainly the situation you describe will happen. However, we're confident it will happen less often than people deliberately vote-kicking to suspend the leaver penalty so they can leave when a queue they don't like appears. The leaver penalty is something we have wanted to turn back on in general as we want people to be serious about attempting something before they queue for it, and not simply leave if everyone is not 14k+. > > With random queues in places, however, it is absolutely necessary. If it were not in effect, many players would join an epic dungeon queue and leave immediately if they did not get EToS, even if it potentially took them more time to leave and reroll repeatedly than the difference in runtime for whatever they were dropped in to. > > We will certainly be monitoring the levels of abuse of players demanding a vote kick. If someone is being hostile or demanding a vote kick in this way be sure to report this as it would qualify as harassment. If you want to leave a queue, you will need to leave normally and suffer the penalty. > * The only time I leave a group is if a player is being offensive in chat or trolling the group - this means I now have to stay and put up with it. Yes, I can block/report them, but do we really want to go that route? > > > If a player is harassing you, please initiate a vote kick and select harassment as the reason. We also do urge you to report them so we can take further action as necessary. > * Will the vote require a majority (3/5) or a full vote (4/5)? > > > Vote kick and vote abandon require a simple majority wherein the initiator is automatically counted as a vote for the action. In the case of vote kick, the kickee is automatically counted as a vote against. > * Currently in levelling dungeons there is a 15 minute wait before you can votekick someone. As a run is usually completed in 5 minutes, it means players either quit or have to wait 10 mins at the door if someone is deliberately holding the group up. Can this be shortened to a more reasonable length? > > > We'll look into this, at the moment we plan to have the vote kick delay on a new member set to 5 minutes, but it's possible that could be adjusted.
So, if I ask to be kicked because I know the group cant complete the dungeon, or they can complete it but in a massive time drag. I am harassing the group? Ha,ha what a joke. Then you need to increase all dungeon ilvl by 1500 or more. I public queue everything as a DC, and can tell you numerous times I have been put at last boss and the run time is already at 1 hour or longer for CN and GWD.
Leave the leaver penalty out of game, or you will see 1 of 3 things happen: More premade groups so instance leave can be done no penalty, low gear score toons being kicked as soon as possible, or fine I get a penalty, I switch toons and play or I just TURN OFF the game and maybe come back later, maybe I don't. What I will do with this being implemented is closing my wallet and not spending another dime on this game.
Im a returning player, so luckily I have some AD hoarded from my previous play time and recent runs. But man, I'd absolutly hate to be a new player right now... Just wow.
I think there's a bit of confusion about how these changes affect new players. In terms of leveling up, it's easier than ever thanks to the XP bonuses from random queues, this will especially speed things up 60-70 as the values are very high for those ranges.
Upon reaching level 70, you will now only need to run 1 random skirmish and 1 random dungeon to earn the same daily AD bonus as before. Additionally, if you queue for an epic dungeon to work on earning seals, whatever you pick, there will be more players than ever filling into that dungeon so the queue will pop faster, and many of those players will be at least 11k.
Additionally, if you have yet to clear that dungeon, everyone who has will be notified that they will receive a new player bonus if the dungeon is completed successfully on the order of thousands of AD, which will be a motivation to make sure the dungeon is cleared even with a new player.
I think the confusion extends both ways, with increasing means to fast track to 70 the term "new player" covers a lot if the guys in Sharandar and Dread Ring who'll soon be wondering why only the 12k demigods get a bonus for doing Malabogs. The guys who've been getting a bonus for level appropriate dungeons who were probably looking forward to some similar system being in place for hitting 70. THOSE new players who will still have to run the same leveling dungeons... but at least they will get their turn to be completely overpowered, and get to ruin it for the new sub L70 players.
You still get AD from epic dungeons as long as they always have salvageable gear. Especially if you have key for the second chest. You just don't get as much as the daily bonus reward. It's not like running the dungeon is completely pointless. And newer players can actually get gear they can use from it. It's okay for new players to take a half hour or more to do a dungeon, if they're going to get gear from it that will make them stronger. It's a lot more fun to run a dungeon when you don't have one overpowered person who lives while everyone else dies and kills the last boss him or herself. It might be entertaining for that one person, but the rest of the players don't learn anything. I don't know. The first two mmorpgs I got max level in were Runes of Magic and Everquest 2. Dungeons took a while to complete. Everything wasn't fast, fast, fast, now, now, now. Of course, I didn't have to run the same dungeons over and over if I didn't want to. But you actually don't have to do that in Neverwinter either. You don't have to do anything. Everything you do in the game, you choose to do.
I confess to running alts through levelling dungeons. In my experience, already ~75% of players in levelling dungeons are alt running L70's with an IL between 8k-15k.
A thing to be considered; if these 75% were excluded the waiting time for queues would go up quite a bit lol.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
I confess to running alts through levelling dungeons. In my experience, already ~75% of players in levelling dungeons are alt running L70's with an IL between 8k-15k.
A thing to be considered; if these 75% were excluded the waiting time for queues would go up quite a bit lol.
I never queued for leveling dungeons when I was leveling back in August of 2014. I think I tried once or twice. But I didn't have to. I either joined someone who was trying to form a group or I started recruiting people myself. And that's back when they were five man dungeons. If I'm new to the game, I'd much rather do a dungeon with other people at or around my level than chase a higher level through the dungeon while he or she smashes everything. If that means I need to form my own group, I would (and did) do it.
I confess to running alts through levelling dungeons. In my experience, already ~75% of players in levelling dungeons are alt running L70's with an IL between 8k-15k.
A thing to be considered; if these 75% were excluded the waiting time for queues would go up quite a bit lol.
Yeah, I've spent over a year trying to guilt shame people into at the very least running that stuff with their eye on the fact that its not meant for them, but for the leveling characters and to show appropriate restraint.
Who knew?
Turns out Cloak Tower IS 10k Level 70 material and the right thing to do IS burn through it for AD as quick as you can and then queue for something else that you actually want to do when you've milked it dry.
ETA, but I don't think anyone's talking about excluding them, just not forcing ALL sub 11k characters down that route.
I confess to running alts through levelling dungeons. In my experience, already ~75% of players in levelling dungeons are alt running L70's with an IL between 8k-15k.
A thing to be considered; if these 75% were excluded the waiting time for queues would go up quite a bit lol.
Yeah, I've spent over a year trying to guilt shame people into at the very least running that stuff with their eye on the fact that its not meant for them, but for the leveling characters and to show appropriate restraint.
Who knew?
Turns out Cloak Tower IS 10k Level 70 material and the right thing to do IS burn through it for AD as quick as you can and then queue for something else that you actually want to do when you've milked it dry.
Not the fault of the players though. The game lets them do it. I want the ability of lvl 70s to queue for leveling dungeons removed and, at the very least, lvl 70 versions of all the dungeons. They don't have to be epic.
EDIT: Also, I thought Tyranny of Dragons was more fun when the cultists adjusted to my level rather than adjusting my character to their level. Harder, but I like a challenge.
I confess to running alts through levelling dungeons. In my experience, already ~75% of players in levelling dungeons are alt running L70's with an IL between 8k-15k.
A thing to be considered; if these 75% were excluded the waiting time for queues would go up quite a bit lol.
Yeah, I've spent over a year trying to guilt shame people into at the very least running that stuff with their eye on the fact that its not meant for them, but for the leveling characters and to show appropriate restraint.
Who knew?
Turns out Cloak Tower IS 10k Level 70 material and the right thing to do IS burn through it for AD as quick as you can and then queue for something else that you actually want to do when you've milked it dry.
Not the fault of the players though. The game lets them do it. I want the ability of lvl 70s to queue for leveling dungeons removed and, at the very least, lvl 70 versions of all the dungeons. They don't have to be epic.
In an ideal world, before all this nonsense about random queues, I would have firmly advocated for not letting L70 into leveling dungeons unless queuing with someone of the appropriate level, to allow people to actually help guildies and so on. But right now the status quo looks like bright shiny beacon of common sense.
I confess to running alts through levelling dungeons. In my experience, already ~75% of players in levelling dungeons are alt running L70's with an IL between 8k-15k.
A thing to be considered; if these 75% were excluded the waiting time for queues would go up quite a bit lol.
Yeah, I've spent over a year trying to guilt shame people into at the very least running that stuff with their eye on the fact that its not meant for them, but for the leveling characters and to show appropriate restraint.
Who knew?
Turns out Cloak Tower IS 10k Level 70 material and the right thing to do IS burn through it for AD as quick as you can and then queue for something else that you actually want to do when you've milked it dry.
Not the fault of the players though. The game lets them do it. I want the ability of lvl 70s to queue for leveling dungeons removed and, at the very least, lvl 70 versions of all the dungeons. They don't have to be epic.
In an ideal world, before all this nonsense about random queues, I would have firmly advocated for not letting L70 into leveling dungeons unless queuing with someone of the appropriate level, to allow people to actually help guildies and so on. But right now the status quo looks like bright shiny beacon of common sense.
I've had new players complain about lvl 70s making the dungeons too easy for them more than once though. New players aren't going to immediately understand that they need to form their own group if they want the dungeon to be challenging.
The best solution was provided by lowjohn on page 16 of this thread.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Genuinely new players can't form their own group for Cloak Tower because they're forbidden to talk to anyone.
Bear in mind that they are looking at adjusting the scaling system to make it harder for L70's.
You never know, if they get the balance right these WILL be the new epic dungeons because they'll take longer and we'll get the same old rewards (minus the salvage) and nobody will be able to tell the difference between what we have now and what we'll have then...
It's all very odd.
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The reward was 1k RAD IIRC, though maybe slightly more.
Leadership today doesnt generate Rough AD though. If it did, many if us wouldn't care about this current issue. Back then, I hit the refining cap every day through leadership and invoking. Any RAD bonus from a dungeon would have been wasted. Now, the bonus is greater and noy taking ul the same slot as what Leadership grants, AD in currency form.
Of course, you didn't actually need all that to complete it, it's just that people wanted fast runs.
Which is a lovely segway into a thought I've been having, if you want to wrangle us into doing content you considered underused by chaining rewards to it, when are you putting some semblance of rewards back into the Foundry? Hmm?
Edit: I am absolutely 100% serious about this, I probably wouldn't have a peep of issues with random queues if there were also some AD rewards for playing daily-qualifying Foundry quests again. But I am only speaking for myself.
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If you want to clean this mess, there is a way: Change dungeon quests from stronghold so you automatically will get 10 shards for the first two dungeons/ skirmishes you passed a day. This, and ONLY this, will be a way to calm the community a bit. Maybe.
With random queues in places, however, it is absolutely necessary. If it were not in effect, many players would join an epic dungeon queue and leave immediately if they did not get EToS, even if it potentially took them more time to leave and reroll repeatedly than the difference in runtime for whatever they were dropped in to.
We will certainly be monitoring the levels of abuse of players demanding a vote kick. If someone is being hostile or demanding a vote kick in this way be sure to report this as it would qualify as harassment. If you want to leave a queue, you will need to leave normally and suffer the penalty. If a player is harassing you, please initiate a vote kick and select harassment as the reason. We also do urge you to report them so we can take further action as necessary. Vote kick and vote abandon require a simple majority wherein the initiator is automatically counted as a vote for the action. In the case of vote kick, the kickee is automatically counted as a vote against.
We'll look into this, at the moment we plan to have the vote kick delay on a new member set to 5 minutes, but it's possible that could be adjusted.
We haven't seen the final Patron system for speeding up alt dungeon unlocking yet, but for a brand new toon, unlocking FBI and MSP is a minimum of a month of running dailies, assuming that player can handle SKT and RD as a brand new 70.
Most brand new 70s cannot solo SKT or RD content until they spend weeks gathering IL400+ gear and R7-8 enchants and boons from easier campaigns.
In fact, I know literally no one who has begun SKT and RD campaigns instantly upon reaching level 70. New players start with Tyranny of Dragons, Elemental Evil and Sharandar, (which takes them 2-3 hours a day total for several weeks), then add Dread Ring and Well of Dragons, then add Icewind Dale, then go to SKT and RD only when those are mostly complete.
There's a lot of newer "catch-up" gear, and this is wonderful, but almost none of it is instantly available for new players. They don't have hundreds of spare trade bars sitting around, they don't have a few hundred thousand AD, they don't have 25000 guild marks. They may not even have a guild. Almost universally, these "catch up" item sets are being used for alts, not for new players.
Adding additional incentive for level 70 characters to run boring-AF low level content and ruin actual low-level players' dungeon experience, and simultaneously gating getting appropriately rewarded for Malabog's Castle behind literal months of effort unlocking FBI and MSP combined to be a series of incredibly bizarre decisions that really cannot be defended.
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- I'll either will be put in to content in which I'll be dead weight for the group (CN and harder). So I'll waste my time and time of other people.
- Or I'll get half of AD reward from dungeon (salvage only). And I consider previous AD reward as somewhat low for time spent.
I'll likely stop doing dungeons with my support and DPS characters. Currently I queue a lot with heals as they get queue fast and I could support group through eToS and easier dungeons just fine. But CN and more complex content cause a problem for me.So I expect that total amount of people that queue will drop dramatically, and there will be less support chars (some almost guaranted AD will become long and probable AD). I'll will possibly do some lottery and I will leave with penality if it would be dungeon I cannot handle yet waiting for next day to draw chances again. Some people would even drop from game (I'll likely just pause the game doing leadership and some dailies and weaklies in uncompleted campaign). I just hope Cryptic will do some changes with mod 13 (Jan 2018?) seeing people discourgaged from dungeons and leaving.
edit (how did the quote miss the blockquote lol?)
Cool, 5 minute timer on voting is good and I like the previously mentioned 5 minute reconnect timer.
Will you be monitoring both 'kickers and kickees'? It occurs to me that anyone who queues with 2 friends could get into the old habit of booting the 2 others for various reasons, be it any rollable loot, item level discrimination etc.
And thanks for the reply. Whilst I personally would prefer to let leavers just leave, I understand the logic behind the move and hope it works out.
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Actually, I've been thinking that the game might start introducing new players to the idea that they might like to group to do campaign quests. This is an mmorpg, there's nothing wrong with not being able to do everything by yourself. Things that people can't handle by themselves can be handled with a partner or a larger group. Problem is that 1-60 gets people so used to soloing. But the game could start slowly introducing new players to the idea that it's better to group to do content at or around when they hit 70.
My point was not that new players can instantly skip to 11k, but that there is actually a reason for them to manually run epic contents they are eligible for to work on advancing to 11k. The point of epic dungeons is not exclusively daily AD bonuses, and you do not need to be 11k to manually queue for something.
> * The new anti-leaver penalty; is it being applied to all dungeons or just randoms?
>
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> All queues. Keep in mind that in any given queue, half of the players could have come from random queues and half could have queued manually. That's the benefit of the system for even those who are queuing manually.
> * Do you still think the leaver penalty is a good idea? As a person who hardly ever leaves a run, I would rather someone who wants to leave can leave and the rest of us can get on with it, rather than have them troll the group or not join in to deliberately elicit a votekick.
>
>
> Certainly the situation you describe will happen. However, we're confident it will happen less often than people deliberately vote-kicking to suspend the leaver penalty so they can leave when a queue they don't like appears. The leaver penalty is something we have wanted to turn back on in general as we want people to be serious about attempting something before they queue for it, and not simply leave if everyone is not 14k+.
>
> With random queues in places, however, it is absolutely necessary. If it were not in effect, many players would join an epic dungeon queue and leave immediately if they did not get EToS, even if it potentially took them more time to leave and reroll repeatedly than the difference in runtime for whatever they were dropped in to.
>
> We will certainly be monitoring the levels of abuse of players demanding a vote kick. If someone is being hostile or demanding a vote kick in this way be sure to report this as it would qualify as harassment. If you want to leave a queue, you will need to leave normally and suffer the penalty.
> * The only time I leave a group is if a player is being offensive in chat or trolling the group - this means I now have to stay and put up with it. Yes, I can block/report them, but do we really want to go that route?
>
>
> If a player is harassing you, please initiate a vote kick and select harassment as the reason. We also do urge you to report them so we can take further action as necessary.
> * Will the vote require a majority (3/5) or a full vote (4/5)?
>
>
> Vote kick and vote abandon require a simple majority wherein the initiator is automatically counted as a vote for the action. In the case of vote kick, the kickee is automatically counted as a vote against.
> * Currently in levelling dungeons there is a 15 minute wait before you can votekick someone. As a run is usually completed in 5 minutes, it means players either quit or have to wait 10 mins at the door if someone is deliberately holding the group up. Can this be shortened to a more reasonable length?
>
>
> We'll look into this, at the moment we plan to have the vote kick delay on a new member set to 5 minutes, but it's possible that could be adjusted.
So, if I ask to be kicked because I know the group cant complete the dungeon, or they can complete it but in a massive time drag. I am harassing the group? Ha,ha what a joke.
Then you need to increase all dungeon ilvl by 1500 or more.
I public queue everything as a DC, and can tell you numerous times I have been put at last boss and the run time is already at 1 hour or longer for CN and GWD.
Leave the leaver penalty out of game, or you will see 1 of 3 things happen: More premade groups so instance leave can be done no penalty, low gear score toons being kicked as soon as possible, or fine I get a penalty, I switch toons and play or I just TURN OFF the game and maybe come back later, maybe I don't.
What I will do with this being implemented is closing my wallet and not spending another dime on this game.
Good job devs of making your customers happy.
A thing to be considered; if these 75% were excluded the waiting time for queues would go up quite a bit lol.
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Who knew?
Turns out Cloak Tower IS 10k Level 70 material and the right thing to do IS burn through it for AD as quick as you can and then queue for something else that you actually want to do when you've milked it dry.
ETA, but I don't think anyone's talking about excluding them, just not forcing ALL sub 11k characters down that route.
EDIT: Also, I thought Tyranny of Dragons was more fun when the cultists adjusted to my level rather than adjusting my character to their level. Harder, but I like a challenge.
But right now the status quo looks like bright shiny beacon of common sense.
The best solution was provided by lowjohn on page 16 of this thread.
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You never know, if they get the balance right these WILL be the new epic dungeons because they'll take longer and we'll get the same old rewards (minus the salvage) and nobody will be able to tell the difference between what we have now and what we'll have then...
It's all very odd.
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Xane De Armadeon: CW
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Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox