But all of this efficiency to fun to RAD ratio thing only applies if the only consideration to efficiency is RAD compared to number of runs. Any other typical game metric throws that in a skip. I don't know about anyone else, but there are other things I consider before choosing what Skirmish or Dungeon to queue for to be "efficient". If I'm trying to get Dark Gifts for my guild hall, I'm queuing Dread, if I have a Kessels or Valindra Key I'm queuing those, if I'm trying to get a +5 underdark ring I'm queuing Throne or Prophecy. Or CN. Or... and so on. Patch that in with whatever the cleric needs me to do for Dungeoneer shards and that, "Hey... efficient RAD bonuses... over here... " becomes, "Oh, FFS, I have to run ANOTHER bloody dungeon... to be efficient and earn the RAD I used to get for doing the stuff I need to. I'm so glad they streamlined this and made it more fun and efficient." And while random queuing first MIGHT land me in one of the ones I need/want to do, it is more likely to land me in something else, which might mean I haven't the time to do what I needed to.
It's not JUST about how many RAD the new bonus structure may or may not offer.
And that's before even taking into account having to get 11k IL min AND unlocking all the dungeons for the new system to even apply. Till then the ONLY dungeon bonus is from bullying basics. So until all those criteria are met, there is literally NO chance of random queuing being more efficient when any consideration beyond "how many bonus RAD will I get from this one run?" is taken into account. Because you can't randomly drop on the dungeon you need cos hey... you haven't unlocked the whole range of dungeons yet so it's just basics for you pal.
Because we have moved the entire existing daily bonus's total value down to just the skirmish and dungeon, hopefully people can start to look at the epic dungeon random queue bonus as not something that is being withheld from them if they run an EToS, but something that is a bonus if they run a random epic dungeon having met all the requirements, and were willing to complete whatever came their way. Running EToS or Castle Never, etc. manually will still be a good way to advance your character's equipment, etc.
Obviously it's hard to think this way about the bonuses right now because everyone is used to the way they worked before. But that's why we are continually making adjustments. It's difficult with something like this to imagine how it will feel once it's become part of your normal play experience, or if you're introduce to the system as a first time player without having known the old system.
Could we at least make the queues accept AT LEAST one healer-class, AT LEAST one tank-class?
We are aware that there is some concern that the best groups do not actually currently run 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 DPS. The current meta has evolved this way unintentionally due to the overwhelming power of buffs and debuffs, as opposed to being a distinct direction we were driving in.
This is part of the reason we are continually making adjustments to player powers. The design team is in discussions about what we would like to do long term in regards to how far off the meta is from the original design, but we don't plan to adjust the restrictions at least for launch of the feature. Loose restrictions will create more difficulties in the matchmaking algorithm and slow down the rate at which queues fire, so we'd like to avoid that for now, but we will absolutely monitor the situation.
I believe these are the two areas where the new system is not right. 1. Create a separate category for all epic dungeons that do not require a campaign unlock or remove the campaign unlock from FBI and MSP. You should be creating less incentive for level 70 characters (or "shock" Bots!) to run levelling content. The only way to do this is to encourage them to play level 70 content. I am actually in favour of putting MSP and FBI in a separate category simply because they are quite a bit harder than the other ones, and I think they deserve an additional bonus ad. But that still gives level 70 characters the chance off the bat to run epic content and be rewarded. Please do not force us down the route of the levelling dungeons which are just so ridiculously simple that my pet can solo them (I wish I was joking - I've tried it).
2. Give people to flexibility to q in whatever role they chose. So when you select a q let the player decide what role they want to q as (healer, dps, buffer, tank). Sure - that means people can make different parties, but I am not sure while the old 3 DPS, 1 Tank, 1 Healer model is worth keeping, assuming you encourage people to play together. Yes, buffs/debuffs are overpowered atm but that's a separate issue, but the distinct role of buffer is probably more honest
Because we have moved the entire existing daily bonus's total value down to just the skirmish and dungeon, hopefully people can start to look at the epic dungeon random queue bonus as not something that is being withheld from them if they run an EToS, but something that is a bonus if they run a random epic dungeon having met all the requirements, and were willing to complete whatever came their way. Running EToS or Castle Never, etc. manually will still be a good way to advance your character's equipment, etc.
Obviously it's hard to think this way about the bonuses right now because everyone is used to the way they worked before. But that's why we are continually making adjustments. It's difficult with something like this to imagine how it will feel once it's become part of your normal play experience, or if you're introduce to the system as a first time player without having known the old system.
Could we at least make the queues accept AT LEAST one healer-class, AT LEAST one tank-class?
We are aware that there is some concern that the best groups do not actually currently run 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 DPS. The current meta has evolved this way unintentionally due to the overwhelming power of buffs and debuffs, as opposed to being a distinct direction we were driving in.
This is part of the reason we are continually making adjustments to player powers. The design team is in discussions about what we would like to do long term in regards to how far off the meta is from the original design, but we don't plan to adjust the restrictions at least for launch of the feature. Loose restrictions will create more difficulties in the matchmaking algorithm and slow down the rate at which queues fire, so we'd like to avoid that for now, but we will absolutely monitor the situation.
I believe these are the two areas where the new system is not right. 1. Create a separate category for all epic dungeons that do not require a campaign unlock or remove the campaign unlock from FBI and MSP.
There is a simple solution. When Hero's Accord comes live, simply put all dungeons from FBI onward into that random queue. Keep epic dungeons from Malabog to Castle Never, and bingo. People still need to attain 8400 IL to unlock the Epic Random Queue, but that's nowhere near the ballache of unlocking EVERYTHING as well as gearing up to high heaven.
This is lot of information and to be honest i am totally confused right now. Maybe someone can answer me some simple questions:
1. Will i get RAD in PRIVATE queues anymore (not salvage) like it's now? 2. Will i get my bag of seals in PRIVATE queues anymore like it's now? 3. If both questions above are answered with no this means i can't do daylies from stronghold cleric anymore and get something else except salvage fodder for collecting dungeon shards?
There is a simple solution. When Hero's Accord comes live, simply put all dungeons from FBI onward into that random queue. Keep epic dungeons from Malabog to Castle Never, and bingo. People still need to attain 8400 IL to unlock the Epic Random Queue, but that's nowhere near the ballache of unlocking EVERYTHING as well as gearing up to high heaven.
That's a possible way of doing it - all the stuff with campaign unlocks in one bag. But that means that you have to do all the campaign unlocks before you get rewarded for any of them (and I'm sure there'll be another campaign unlock in mod 13). That seems a bit harsh to me. To me having three categories is simpler and, since it would give people more rAD remove the temptation to run through levelling dungeons with level 70 toons.
This is lot of information and to be honest i am totally confused right now. Maybe someone can answer me some simple questions:
1. Will i get RAD in PRIVATE queues anymore (not salvage) like it's now? 2. Will i get by bag of seals in PRIVATE queues anymore like it's now? 3. If both questions above are answered with no this means i can't do daylies from stronghold cleric anymore and get something else except salvage fodder for collecting dungeon shards?
Is that really it?
As things stand now 1) No 2) No 3) You can do your stronghold quest but you won't get AD for it.
That is why people are upset
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
This is lot of information and to be honest i am totally confused right now. Maybe someone can answer me some simple questions:
1. Will i get RAD in PRIVATE queues anymore (not salvage) like it's now? 2. Will i get by bag of seals in PRIVATE queues anymore like it's now? 3. If both questions above are answered with no this means i can't do daylies from stronghold cleric anymore and get something else except salvage fodder for collecting dungeon shards?
Is that really it?
As things stand now 1) No 2) No 3) You can do your stronghold quest but you won't get AD for it.
That is why people are upset
And i fully understand it.. Thanks for the clarification.
@asterdahl Why you want us to choose between stronghold progression and personal progression? Why you force us to doing random runs? I hate pug runs, i never wanna do this. I want to progress WITH MY GUILD in a dungeon/ skirmish WE choose cause WE want to have fun! It's not fun beeing randomized, it never was. This is one of the most silly ideas all of you ever had.
It's a game, it should make fun. If you want to reward random runners so be it. But don't punish me for doing stuff that i want to do with my friends.
Under the new system, you are rewarded for running content that is no challenge and in the process act in ways that leveling players have often seen as griefing.
In order to make AD from properly scaled content, you are forced to unlock and risk getting thrown into dungeons that most would rather avoid and won't be able to complete.
In order to make AD from skirmishes you have to unlock Chult as well as run POM, which is painful and has been bugged forever.
Now you can earn AD from trials but you have to have unlocked MSVA and be able to complete it.
But most likely the playerbase will start reach a consensus of which content to immediately vote to abandon, wasting everyone's time but bypassing these ridiculous new queues.
The sad thing is that until this new system, I have had a very positive opinion about the direction that the game was headed.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
This is lot of information and to be honest i am totally confused right now. Maybe someone can answer me some simple questions:
1. Will i get RAD in PRIVATE queues anymore (not salvage) like it's now? 2. Will i get by bag of seals in PRIVATE queues anymore like it's now? 3. If both questions above are answered with no this means i can't do daylies from stronghold cleric anymore and get something else except salvage fodder for collecting dungeon shards?
Is that really it?
As things stand now 1) No 2) No 3) You can do your stronghold quest but you won't get AD for it.
That is why people are upset
Point two is incorrect, below is a quote from @asterdahl running an individual epic dungeon you're comfortable running should still be very rewarding for increasing your item level, even if there is no bonus AD. This is because, all other items will still drop, including refinement items as well as seals of the protector which can be used to purchase very powerful equipment.
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Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Under the new system, you are rewarded for running content that is no challenge and in the process act in ways that leveling players have often seen as griefing.
In order to make AD from properly scaled content, you are forced to unlock and risk getting thrown into dungeons that most would rather avoid and won't be able to complete.
In order to make AD from skirmishes you have to unlock Chult as well as run POM, which is painful and has been bugged forever.
Now you can earn AD from trials but you have to have unlocked MSVA and be able to complete it.
But most likely the playerbase will start reach a consensus of which content to immediately vote to abandon, wasting everyone's time but bypassing these ridiculous new queues.
The sad thing is that until this new system, I have had a very positive opinion about the direction that the game was headed.
Same here. I welcomed all the new things they announced for 12b cause they looked really good but this is the worst decision they ever made.
I understand what they're trying to do - helping new people running stuff cause most high end gamers using private chat channels to exclude this unexperienced 'newbies', reducing ADs earned in game so economy will stabilize - but this isn't the right way.
This is lot of information and to be honest i am totally confused right now. Maybe someone can answer me some simple questions:
1. Will i get RAD in PRIVATE queues anymore (not salvage) like it's now? 2. Will i get my bag of seals in PRIVATE queues anymore like it's now? 3. If both questions above are answered with no this means i can't do daylies from stronghold cleric anymore and get something else except salvage fodder for collecting dungeon shards?
Is that really it?
As things stand now 1) No 2) No 3) You can do your stronghold quest but you won't get AD for it.
That is why people are upset
Point two is incorrect, below is a quote from @asterdahl running an individual epic dungeon you're comfortable running should still be very rewarding for increasing your item level, even if there is no bonus AD. This is because, all other items will still drop, including refinement items as well as seals of the protector which can be used to purchase very powerful equipment.
I were talking about the bag of seals not seals as boss drops in general.
The sad thing is that until this new system, I have had a very positive opinion about the direction that the game was headed.
I'm on XB1 and I was actually looking forward to M12. It sounded like a nice direction for progression through the campaign. New gear, dino mount (this alone got most of my guild excited).
Now all of this M12b news has just made me rethink if I even want to bother continuing in the game. This is months away and our guild has already lost players because of all these changes coming down the road. The one common thread in all of their complaints – we've been swindled enough times and they've had it.
There is a simple solution. When Hero's Accord comes live, simply put all dungeons from FBI onward into that random queue. Keep epic dungeons from Malabog to Castle Never, and bingo. People still need to attain 8400 IL to unlock the Epic Random Queue, but that's nowhere near the ballache of unlocking EVERYTHING as well as gearing up to high heaven.
That's a possible way of doing it - all the stuff with campaign unlocks in one bag. But that means that you have to do all the campaign unlocks before you get rewarded for any of them (and I'm sure there'll be another campaign unlock in mod 13). That seems a bit harsh to me. To me having three categories is simpler and, since it would give people more rAD remove the temptation to run through levelling dungeons with level 70 toons.
But that will be the case for ALL dungeons as the current model for Heroes Accord moves forward.As the way its described makes it something of a moveable feast. Say you've unlocked FBI and MSPC... cool, you've got your 11k and going on alright. You're not through with 12 or 12b but that's OK. ToNG is outside the bracket in Heroes Accord, along with the recent Mod 13 content. You, by the grace of devs are hereby granted access to the bonus RAD afforded by the right to Randomly Queue for epic dungeons...
UNTIL Mod 14 or 15 or whenever the day comes. When the required IL moves to 13k. Oh... now ToNG and Mod 13s killer dungeon are no longer the toughest material so they drop into the epic dungeons, and Heroes Accord has a new queue list. What's that? You're not 12k??? You haven't unlocked Mod 13's dungeon yet??? Ohhhh dear... back to basics for you sunshine.
OK... the argument may go, "well... you'll have had time to gain that extra IL to 13k and unlock the dungeons... but lets just consider for a moment the players who are currently about 8k. Every time they get closer to finally getting access to the simple, basic, thing that is the random queue RAD daily bonus... its out of reach again. And EVERY alt you have has to complete the campaign requirement and earn that IL bump.
It was mentioned earlier that for the sake of making some players happy, others have to put up with things they neither want, or like. But I struggle to see who the players are who actually get anything good out of this. It seems more like some players have to put up with something crappy in order for a small group of people to put up with something slightly less crappy. Unless there are a hell of a lot of people who log on to queue and tick EVERY box from Malabog to MSPC and are happy to take whatever comes. Cos THEY are the only people who see a genuine win-win with this.
Cos even the poor buggers crying in the night for people to let them into an FBI queue group... who I assume this whole idea is meant to help... even THEY are going to get shafted on bonus RAD when the random queue drops a bunch of unwilling participants on them. Cos they're queuing for THAT dungeon.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
When we do 2 eToS, we get now both the salvage and the rAD bonus. In the new system I'm forced to the leveling dungeons, due the requirements and the chance to get stuck in some happy places. So no salvage for the same run, and we gonna flood the lowbie dungeons, until I guess the scaling changed and then that will be 'nerfed' again.
He said we will get salvage and seals from the levelling dungeons and with that included we should earn in 1 levelling + 1 skirmish the same AD as we'd get from running x2 currently.
I am a little concerned about what they have in mind for scaling though - hopefully it won't go so far as to significantly increase time spent and even require a proper group mix (hard to do with 3 players lol)
Hmm maybe I've missed it, but leveling dungeons have non-salvageable gear, and adventurers seals. There are some bonus protectors seals from the random queue itself but that's akin to the 1 daily bag of 40 seals we get now the first run, so we can count those 2 out (the bag = random queue seals bonus, independent of the dungeon).
He said he was adding them, I re-read it just to make sure
I also re-read and I'm not seeing where you concluded this from. When describing the earning potential of running one random dungeon and one random skirmish, only the skirmish is mentioned as having potential salvage rewards.
This is lot of information and to be honest i am totally confused right now. Maybe someone can answer me some simple questions:
1. Will i get RAD in PRIVATE queues anymore (not salvage) like it's now? 2. Will i get by bag of seals in PRIVATE queues anymore like it's now? 3. If both questions above are answered with no this means i can't do daylies from stronghold cleric anymore and get something else except salvage fodder for collecting dungeon shards?
Is that really it?
As things stand now 1) No 2) No 3) You can do your stronghold quest but you won't get AD for it.
That is why people are upset
Point two is incorrect, below is a quote from Asterdahl running an individual epic dungeon you're comfortable running should still be very rewarding for increasing your item level, even if there is no bonus AD. This is because, all other items will still drop, including refinement items as well as seals of the protector which can be used to purchase very powerful equipment.
You get seals from bosses and the final chest (need a key) on any run at all. The seal cache automatically awarded on the first run is being rolled into the rewards for random queueing.
One of the main stated goals for this new system was to shorten queue times by encouraging support classes to participate. There's a couple of things going on there. First off, you only NEED those support classes because your algorithm isn't complex enough to sort out which build can actually serve as support classes. Second, since we are mainly talking about leveling dungeons and thus low level players now, if the new player group isn't making enough support classes, is supplementing that with end-game ready tanks and clerics that can accidentally murder everything in the leveling dungeons really the best answer?
Initially, I had voiced support for the idea of getting a bit of a bonus to participate in a system where a group of randoms needed a DC to run a dungeon and I could lend a hand. I do this for people in my guild and alliance every day. I ran a lvl 60 GF and HR through Vault of the Nine last night so they could get their sigils, but I let them do nearly all the work. I buffed them up and carefully dropped Divine Glow so as to hit them but not the mobs they were fighting. They probably could have completed it fine without my help, but they wouldn't have paired up to try unless I had initially offered to help the HR and the GF asked if he could tag along. They got to experience the run mostly as it was designed to be: fairly challenging but with a great reward.
That's not at all what random queues are going to look like. I honestly don't think I would participate because I think, whether a level 40 group needs a DC to start a Pirate King's Retreat or not, they would not enjoy having me be their DC if I ran ahead of them and wiped the dungeon, and most DCs or Tanks wouldn't run these random queues every day holding back so the on-level guys could play their parts. I probably would at first, but I think the charm would wear off. For every leveling character that wants to experience the challenge of an on-level dungeon, there are 40 more that would rather see what kind of damage a high level player can do.
In short, you are not going to get what you want with this plan if you truly want players to play the game as intended.
Somewhere, buried in the early pages of this thread, I tried to explain that the other segments of this proposal, Random Epic Queues and Hero's Accord, needed a second look in order to work, specifically, moving FBI and MSP into Hero's Accord and putting MSVA into its own category since it also requires a campaign unlock, special gear and specific experience to complete.
MANY other people have brought up similar suggestions, and MANY more have pointed out how obviously different FBI and MSP are from the lower epics, yet the only thing @asterdahl has said about it is they aren't willing to acknowledge it.
I'm sorry, but you guys have to if you want this thing to work for the reasons you have stated.
I took a break for a while, so I have yet to unlock MSP, but even when I do, I wouldn't random queue for everything from MC to MSP... it just doesn't make sense. If I feel like pitching in and helping out with an EToS or CN, that's completely different from pugging MSP or FBI. There are three clearly defined difficulty levels post 70, so please let us know you guys see that and explain why your random queue concept ignores it.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Note to people concerned about getting 5 players together (so as to not spoil it for lowbies) and all roles for normal dungeons: These are a 3-player queue, and do not require roles.
Oh yeah... I forgot about Tiamat... Do you guys have data to support its inclusion with the other skirmishes? Earlier I suggested just removing it from the random queue because I just can't see a 25 man pug that requires Tia levels of communication and tactics EVER working, but do you guys actually disagree with that or is Tia included just because its also technically a trial?
Note to people concerned about getting 5 players together (so as to not spoil it for lowbies) and all roles for normal dungeons: These are a 3-player queue, and do not require roles.
Wow... I had forgotten about that. What's the point of any of this then?
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,403Arc User
Oh yeah... I forgot about Tiamat... Do you guys have data to support its inclusion with the other skirmishes? Earlier I suggested just removing it from the random queue because I just can't see a 25 man pug that requires Tia levels of communication and tactics EVER working, but do you guys actually disagree with that or is Tia included just because its also technically a trial?
These days (in PC anyway), Tiamat does not need communication at all. You don't even need 25 capable people. Tiamat is included. However, if you have a party more than 10 people, this party cannot join random queue.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
I am a recently returned player to the game. I am currently sitting on 10k gear score. Now this news is making me think whether returning was a good idea. So I won't be able to continue earning by AD by running epic dungeons like I do, because my gear score is not high enough for all. Also, leaver's penalty doesn't matter. People WILL leave if they get a queue or a dungeon they already know it is impossible to complete with the current group they got. Leaver's penalty will just encourage them to go to something else instead of trying a new queue, that's the only difference.
Im a returning player, so luckily I have some AD hoarded from my previous play time and recent runs. But man, I'd absolutly hate to be a new player right now... Just wow.
(A jadeite is worth 2,500 refinement points (25,000 by current live standards.) (A black pearl is worth 100 refinement points (1,000 by current live standards.) These refinement stones replace a rough AD reward of 5000 and 800 respectively.
A little off topic, but are we really introducing MORE refinement items at the same time we are streamlining refinement?
> @preechr#2215 said: > Note to people concerned about getting 5 players together (so as to not spoil it for lowbies) and all roles for normal dungeons: These are a 3-player queue, and do not require roles. > > Wow... I had forgotten about that. > What's the point of any of this then?
Making Queues pop faster, without regard to viability of the group, how enjoyable the experience is or any other consideration. It is likely that forcing public queues is supposed to stop the 4 support parties. (those will continue as the people running them aren't concerned about a daily RAD reward)
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Oh yeah... I forgot about Tiamat... Do you guys have data to support its inclusion with the other skirmishes? Earlier I suggested just removing it from the random queue because I just can't see a 25 man pug that requires Tia levels of communication and tactics EVER working, but do you guys actually disagree with that or is Tia included just because its also technically a trial?
I think any group that queues with a risk to get to MSVA, can carry Tia.
You get seals from bosses and the final chest (need a key) on any run at all. The seal cache automatically awarded on the first run is being rolled into the rewards for random queueing.
This is correct. There seems to be some misunderstanding about seals. You will still receive all the seals you would normally receive from a run, whether you random queue or not. Only the seal cache is being done away with, and seal bonuses are being added to all random queues (not just epic dungeons.)
There is a simple solution. When Hero's Accord comes live, simply put all dungeons from FBI onward into that random queue. Keep epic dungeons from Malabog to Castle Never, and bingo.
This is something we have absolutely considered. One reason we'd ideally like to avoid this is that hero's accord will provide a bonus cache of seals of the brave. We're not so much concerned that if you may end up in Fangbreaker and be rewarded with seals of the brave (because you needed to meet the requirements for the Tomb regardless) but we do think it will be seriously frustrating that if you want to earn the best daily seals of the brave reward to progress your character, you will queue for a random queue to get the 30 daily seals and may end up in a dungeon that naturally gives no seals of the brave.
On the other hand, we have no plans to break out a third epic dungeon random queue as this complicates rewards even further, muddles up the queues, and makes the daily commitment for those looking to finish all of their random queues even larger.
One thing that's very difficult to keep in mind here is that meeting the 11k requirement is no longer as difficult as it was when many of you met it, and it will be even less so when 12B goes live with the refinement adjustments. When we look at the distribution of player's main characters by item level, the average item level is actually higher than we expected even before Module 12. This applies to future concerns about what happens when Tomb of the Nine Gods and Module 13's content move down to the epic dungeon queue, and something new is put into hero's accord. By that point, reaching 12k will have become significantly easier as well.
None of this is to say that we're not still considering making adjustments. All of your feedback is absolutely appreciated.
At this point the only positive I see is a temporary decrease in botting until new macros are built to account for the system, and that was said to be a happy side-effect, not intended.
Let's all go do Stronghold Siege or Gauntlgrym, guys!
Im a returning player, so luckily I have some AD hoarded from my previous play time and recent runs. But man, I'd absolutly hate to be a new player right now... Just wow.
I think there's a bit of confusion about how these changes affect new players. In terms of leveling up, it's easier than ever thanks to the XP bonuses from random queues, this will especially speed things up 60-70 as the values are very high for those ranges.
Upon reaching level 70, you will now only need to run 1 random skirmish and 1 random dungeon to earn the same daily AD bonus as before. Additionally, if you queue for an epic dungeon to work on earning seals, whatever you pick, there will be more players than ever filling into that dungeon so the queue will pop faster, and many of those players will be at least 11k.
Additionally, if you have yet to clear that dungeon, everyone who has will be notified that they will receive a new player bonus if the dungeon is completed successfully on the order of thousands of AD, which will be a motivation to make sure the dungeon is cleared even with a new player.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
(A jadeite is worth 2,500 refinement points (25,000 by current live standards.) (A black pearl is worth 100 refinement points (1,000 by current live standards.) These refinement stones replace a rough AD reward of 5000 and 800 respectively.
A little off topic, but are we really introducing MORE refinement items at the same time we are streamlining refinement?
They are adding 7 new RP stones (some of which I expect to be extremely rare) and 5 new reagent items but eliminating any new drops of ~20 RP stones entirely, eliminating 9 reagent items, and you won't pick up random enchants or runestones anymore (up to 18 slots for all rank 4s and 5s). It's a genuine streamline and most of the new stones are to fill in gaps in values so that various rewards will retain the same values as current stones.
(A jadeite is worth 2,500 refinement points (25,000 by current live standards.) (A black pearl is worth 100 refinement points (1,000 by current live standards.) These refinement stones replace a rough AD reward of 5000 and 800 respectively.
A little off topic, but are we really introducing MORE refinement items at the same time we are streamlining refinement?
They are adding 7 new RP stones (some of which I expect to be extremely rare) and 5 new reagent items but eliminating any new drops of ~20 RP stones entirely, eliminating 9 reagent items, and you won't pick up random enchants or runestones anymore (up to 18 slots for all rank 4s and 5s). It's a genuine streamline and most of the new stones are to fill in gaps in values so that various rewards will retain the same values as current stones.
How about marks? Do they also stop dropping 3 green, 3 blue and 3 purple marks and replacing them which 3 enchantment stone (green, blue, purple)?
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Comments
whatever..
lots of time invested in a system we do not need.. not even sure what it does really..
they seem hell bent to remove choice from the players.. good luck to that.
Any other typical game metric throws that in a skip.
I don't know about anyone else, but there are other things I consider before choosing what Skirmish or Dungeon to queue for to be "efficient".
If I'm trying to get Dark Gifts for my guild hall, I'm queuing Dread, if I have a Kessels or Valindra Key I'm queuing those, if I'm trying to get a +5 underdark ring I'm queuing Throne or Prophecy. Or CN. Or... and so on.
Patch that in with whatever the cleric needs me to do for Dungeoneer shards and that, "Hey... efficient RAD bonuses... over here... " becomes, "Oh, FFS, I have to run ANOTHER bloody dungeon... to be efficient and earn the RAD I used to get for doing the stuff I need to. I'm so glad they streamlined this and made it more fun and efficient."
And while random queuing first MIGHT land me in one of the ones I need/want to do, it is more likely to land me in something else, which might mean I haven't the time to do what I needed to.
It's not JUST about how many RAD the new bonus structure may or may not offer.
And that's before even taking into account having to get 11k IL min AND unlocking all the dungeons for the new system to even apply. Till then the ONLY dungeon bonus is from bullying basics. So until all those criteria are met, there is literally NO chance of random queuing being more efficient when any consideration beyond "how many bonus RAD will I get from this one run?" is taken into account. Because you can't randomly drop on the dungeon you need cos hey... you haven't unlocked the whole range of dungeons yet so it's just basics for you pal.
1. Create a separate category for all epic dungeons that do not require a campaign unlock or remove the campaign unlock from FBI and MSP.
You should be creating less incentive for level 70 characters (or "shock" Bots!) to run levelling content. The only way to do this is to encourage them to play level 70 content. I am actually in favour of putting MSP and FBI in a separate category simply because they are quite a bit harder than the other ones, and I think they deserve an additional bonus ad. But that still gives level 70 characters the chance off the bat to run epic content and be rewarded. Please do not force us down the route of the levelling dungeons which are just so ridiculously simple that my pet can solo them (I wish I was joking - I've tried it).
2. Give people to flexibility to q in whatever role they chose. So when you select a q let the player decide what role they want to q as (healer, dps, buffer, tank). Sure - that means people can make different parties, but I am not sure while the old 3 DPS, 1 Tank, 1 Healer model is worth keeping, assuming you encourage people to play together. Yes, buffs/debuffs are overpowered atm but that's a separate issue, but the distinct role of buffer is probably more honest
1. Will i get RAD in PRIVATE queues anymore (not salvage) like it's now?
2. Will i get my bag of seals in PRIVATE queues anymore like it's now?
3. If both questions above are answered with no this means i can't do daylies from stronghold cleric anymore and get something else except salvage fodder for collecting dungeon shards?
Is that really it?
edit: Typo
1) No
2) No
3) You can do your stronghold quest but you won't get AD for it.
That is why people are upset
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
@asterdahl
Why you want us to choose between stronghold progression and personal progression? Why you force us to doing random runs? I hate pug runs, i never wanna do this.
I want to progress WITH MY GUILD in a dungeon/ skirmish WE choose cause WE want to have fun! It's not fun beeing randomized, it never was. This is one of the most silly ideas all of you ever had.
It's a game, it should make fun. If you want to reward random runners so be it. But don't punish me for doing stuff that i want to do with my friends.
In order to make AD from properly scaled content, you are forced to unlock and risk getting thrown into dungeons that most would rather avoid and won't be able to complete.
In order to make AD from skirmishes you have to unlock Chult as well as run POM, which is painful and has been bugged forever.
Now you can earn AD from trials but you have to have unlocked MSVA and be able to complete it.
But most likely the playerbase will start reach a consensus of which content to immediately vote to abandon, wasting everyone's time but bypassing these ridiculous new queues.
The sad thing is that until this new system, I have had a very positive opinion about the direction that the game was headed.
running an individual epic dungeon you're comfortable running should still be very rewarding for increasing your item level, even if there is no bonus AD. This is because, all other items will still drop, including refinement items as well as seals of the protector which can be used to purchase very powerful equipment.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
I understand what they're trying to do - helping new people running stuff cause most high end gamers using private chat channels to exclude this unexperienced 'newbies', reducing ADs earned in game so economy will stabilize - but this isn't the right way.
I were talking about the bag of seals not seals as boss drops in general.
Now all of this M12b news has just made me rethink if I even want to bother continuing in the game. This is months away and our guild has already lost players because of all these changes coming down the road. The one common thread in all of their complaints – we've been swindled enough times and they've had it.
Say you've unlocked FBI and MSPC... cool, you've got your 11k and going on alright. You're not through with 12 or 12b but that's OK. ToNG is outside the bracket in Heroes Accord, along with the recent Mod 13 content. You, by the grace of devs are hereby granted access to the bonus RAD afforded by the right to Randomly Queue for epic dungeons...
UNTIL Mod 14 or 15 or whenever the day comes. When the required IL moves to 13k. Oh... now ToNG and Mod 13s killer dungeon are no longer the toughest material so they drop into the epic dungeons, and Heroes Accord has a new queue list.
What's that? You're not 12k??? You haven't unlocked Mod 13's dungeon yet??? Ohhhh dear... back to basics for you sunshine.
OK... the argument may go, "well... you'll have had time to gain that extra IL to 13k and unlock the dungeons... but lets just consider for a moment the players who are currently about 8k. Every time they get closer to finally getting access to the simple, basic, thing that is the random queue RAD daily bonus... its out of reach again. And EVERY alt you have has to complete the campaign requirement and earn that IL bump.
It was mentioned earlier that for the sake of making some players happy, others have to put up with things they neither want, or like. But I struggle to see who the players are who actually get anything good out of this. It seems more like some players have to put up with something crappy in order for a small group of people to put up with something slightly less crappy.
Unless there are a hell of a lot of people who log on to queue and tick EVERY box from Malabog to MSPC and are happy to take whatever comes. Cos THEY are the only people who see a genuine win-win with this.
Cos even the poor buggers crying in the night for people to let them into an FBI queue group... who I assume this whole idea is meant to help... even THEY are going to get shafted on bonus RAD when the random queue drops a bunch of unwilling participants on them. Cos they're queuing for THAT dungeon.
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Initially, I had voiced support for the idea of getting a bit of a bonus to participate in a system where a group of randoms needed a DC to run a dungeon and I could lend a hand. I do this for people in my guild and alliance every day. I ran a lvl 60 GF and HR through Vault of the Nine last night so they could get their sigils, but I let them do nearly all the work. I buffed them up and carefully dropped Divine Glow so as to hit them but not the mobs they were fighting. They probably could have completed it fine without my help, but they wouldn't have paired up to try unless I had initially offered to help the HR and the GF asked if he could tag along. They got to experience the run mostly as it was designed to be: fairly challenging but with a great reward.
That's not at all what random queues are going to look like. I honestly don't think I would participate because I think, whether a level 40 group needs a DC to start a Pirate King's Retreat or not, they would not enjoy having me be their DC if I ran ahead of them and wiped the dungeon, and most DCs or Tanks wouldn't run these random queues every day holding back so the on-level guys could play their parts. I probably would at first, but I think the charm would wear off. For every leveling character that wants to experience the challenge of an on-level dungeon, there are 40 more that would rather see what kind of damage a high level player can do.
In short, you are not going to get what you want with this plan if you truly want players to play the game as intended.
Somewhere, buried in the early pages of this thread, I tried to explain that the other segments of this proposal, Random Epic Queues and Hero's Accord, needed a second look in order to work, specifically, moving FBI and MSP into Hero's Accord and putting MSVA into its own category since it also requires a campaign unlock, special gear and specific experience to complete.
MANY other people have brought up similar suggestions, and MANY more have pointed out how obviously different FBI and MSP are from the lower epics, yet the only thing @asterdahl has said about it is they aren't willing to acknowledge it.
I'm sorry, but you guys have to if you want this thing to work for the reasons you have stated.
I took a break for a while, so I have yet to unlock MSP, but even when I do, I wouldn't random queue for everything from MC to MSP... it just doesn't make sense. If I feel like pitching in and helping out with an EToS or CN, that's completely different from pugging MSP or FBI. There are three clearly defined difficulty levels post 70, so please let us know you guys see that and explain why your random queue concept ignores it.
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What's the point of any of this then?
Tiamat is included. However, if you have a party more than 10 people, this party cannot join random queue.
I am a recently returned player to the game. I am currently sitting on 10k gear score. Now this news is making me think whether returning was a good idea. So I won't be able to continue earning by AD by running epic dungeons like I do, because my gear score is not high enough for all.
Also, leaver's penalty doesn't matter. People WILL leave if they get a queue or a dungeon they already know it is impossible to complete with the current group they got. Leaver's penalty will just encourage them to go to something else instead of trying a new queue, that's the only difference.
Im a returning player, so luckily I have some AD hoarded from my previous play time and recent runs. But man, I'd absolutly hate to be a new player right now... Just wow.
> Note to people concerned about getting 5 players together (so as to not spoil it for lowbies) and all roles for normal dungeons: These are a 3-player queue, and do not require roles.
>
> Wow... I had forgotten about that.
> What's the point of any of this then?
Making Queues pop faster, without regard to viability of the group, how enjoyable the experience is or any other consideration. It is likely that forcing public queues is supposed to stop the 4 support parties. (those will continue as the people running them aren't concerned about a daily RAD reward)
On the other hand, we have no plans to break out a third epic dungeon random queue as this complicates rewards even further, muddles up the queues, and makes the daily commitment for those looking to finish all of their random queues even larger.
One thing that's very difficult to keep in mind here is that meeting the 11k requirement is no longer as difficult as it was when many of you met it, and it will be even less so when 12B goes live with the refinement adjustments. When we look at the distribution of player's main characters by item level, the average item level is actually higher than we expected even before Module 12. This applies to future concerns about what happens when Tomb of the Nine Gods and Module 13's content move down to the epic dungeon queue, and something new is put into hero's accord. By that point, reaching 12k will have become significantly easier as well.
None of this is to say that we're not still considering making adjustments. All of your feedback is absolutely appreciated.
Let's all go do Stronghold Siege or Gauntlgrym, guys!
Upon reaching level 70, you will now only need to run 1 random skirmish and 1 random dungeon to earn the same daily AD bonus as before. Additionally, if you queue for an epic dungeon to work on earning seals, whatever you pick, there will be more players than ever filling into that dungeon so the queue will pop faster, and many of those players will be at least 11k.
Additionally, if you have yet to clear that dungeon, everyone who has will be notified that they will receive a new player bonus if the dungeon is completed successfully on the order of thousands of AD, which will be a motivation to make sure the dungeon is cleared even with a new player.
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