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Removal of Legacy Set Bonuses

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  • karamekoskaramekos Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 47 Arc User
    Clearly the sets are not the root of the problem. The root cause of the problem has already been pointed out in this thread and the other problematic powers have been documented in this thread as well. Furthermore, the removal of the set bonuses will not materially affect end game groups, as the fabricant has documented. My consternation is not about the set bonuses.

    My consternation stems from the way I feel customers are being treated with this change. There's no communication supporting any attempt at a solution other than taking this away from customers. I feel this is an unprecedented customer-caring low. Specifically, this change doesn't appear to be an incremental nerf from X% to X%, only forcible removal. I feel like I'm about to become a victim of cyber-robbery and am helpless to do anything about the situation.

    Tangentially and with limited relevance to the aforementioned points, I'd like to state my intent is not to introduce additional vitriol in the forums. I almost didn't post this because I honestly feel providing feedback in the forums does little to alter anything related to changes in this game and feedback is generally dismissed or unconsidered. Thomas Foss, however, said he spends time reading the forums so I have a renewed sense of hope and feel compelled to invest time documenting feedback.
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    There is way too much power creep in the game and they have to start from somewhere. Obviously to get relevant data about the current status of the game they have to start eliminating outliers whatever the impact is and some of the old equipments definitely are. To be honest even Royal Guard would be an outlier for current combat HRs if losing 50k HP would not be too much of a trade-off for a class that has to stay in melee range all time and has unreliable dodges.
    Taken away that disturbance they'll be able to have more robust data and they need them.
    Overall DPS has to go down a lot, monster damage has to go down, tankiness/mitigation/self healing has to go down too and by the gods most monsters should be controllable even in dungeons (and they should be able to control more the players). This will make dungeons take longer and make the fight more interesting. At that point rewards for dungeons could be upped because as of today it doesn't make sense to have decent rewards in content that you can trash in 15 minutes.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • ajlir#7970 ajlir Member Posts: 367 Arc User


    The bonding will need to be addressed at some point. But don't think they can do much about it in the near future. Lots of whales paid lots of money for their legendary pets and R12 bondings. They have to let them have their fun for a year or two before they can think about nerfing it. People who paid obscene amount of AD for the high set should have invested in bonding instead.

    Anything can happen. And it'll start with Loyal Companion gears.
  • silver11#9318 silver11 Member Posts: 92 Arc User
    I remember when I solo'd the entire lostmauth on my tr in mod 7. I felt accomplished. Then someone said "you used a tank companion it doesnt count", to which I replied you do it then. He couldnt complete it with or without a tank companion. There are always people trying to blame success on something other than hardwork rather than giving praise to those who achieve greatness. Dont stoop to their level. The fact of the matter is the powers we have were given to us. Why would you not use them to their full potential? If that is old sets, bondings, a specific build... whatever it is to help your team finish content quicker, you should do it. Glitches/ exploits (like orcus set one shotting dragons) are one thing, but WAI items? really? I remember when the tr had a weird interaction with the plaguefire. What did they do? destroy the tr instead of fix the interaction. Old sets too good? Destroy! In this age of technology we are giving them the tools to ruin the game we love. Keep testing... keep posting builds to help others. Guess what? Theyll see something actually work good again and another crusade will begin. The way that this game is headed there will be full gwf squads wrecking everything. Why? because gfs, ops, dcs wont have enough of a buff to be worth a spot in a group. Anyway good job, another thing taken away. To do list: bondings, underdark rings working on companions, sh boons, certain artifacts... um thats all I can think of atm. sidenote: i like someones idea of having varying armor sets based on tree taken. However it should be one armor set that works like artifact weapons. Basically you can unlock each tree bonus with cubes of augmentation.
  • edited October 2016
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  • jamesbond007#6020 jamesbond007 Member Posts: 32 Arc User
    Sucks for the players who just recently spent millions of AD on those old sets, good thing I didn't do that. Guess it was just a matter of time before devs took em away.
  • ajlir#7970 ajlir Member Posts: 367 Arc User
    edited October 2016

    there will be full gwf squads...

    GWF is nothing but DPS. If you think this class can replace offensive utility builds, you're dead wrong. And look at
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk33m8eku89oN83jfoU7gNQ

    Being a GWF main myself. I absolutely hate GWF squads in PuGs.
    And I'll report to their guild leaders just how bad they are in dungeons. You kicked me because you left me behind? Sure, I'll destroy your reputation.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLjyMw9lHT0&feature=youtu.be

    FBI in 17:05 without any mod 5 sets. You can very clearly see on the monsters debuff bars than none of the mod 5 sets bonuses are applied and if you don't know what the broken armor or arcane force transference debuff look like, then you shouldn't be giving feedback on mod 5 sets anyhow.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOkpXMgxaRw

    14:44 when you get lucky with commander's strike. It kind of illustrates how broken the skill is in comparison.
  • urabaskurabask Member Posts: 2,923 Arc User
    edited October 2016



    14:44 when you get lucky with commander's strike. It kind of illustrates how broken the skill is in comparison.

    Wouldn't the more logical comparison be to do runs without commanders strike or similarly broken mechanics to illustrate the effect of the removal of HP/HV bonuses in a run? If the whole point of removing the set bonuses is to eventually have gameplay where you have neither these broken mechanics or the set bonuses then it doesn't really make much sense to test them together.
    Post edited by urabask on
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  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    no cause this thread is about old sets. They said they are the main thing letting us clear dungeons so fast. And btw if you read the patchnotes from stormkingsthunder u will see that Commanderstrike is WAI now. It may be to strong but its in fact no bug/exploit or anything like that. So yes they can/should nerf it, but you cant fix something or call it broken when its WAI.
    If you go by the logic of some of the people in this thread we would have to run without any classes to be legit.
  • urabaskurabask Member Posts: 2,923 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    tom#6998 said:

    no cause this thread is about old sets. They said they are the main thing letting us clear dungeons so fast. And btw if you read the patchnotes from stormkingsthunder u will see that Commanderstrike is WAI now. It may be to strong but its in fact no bug/exploit or anything like that. So yes they can/should nerf it, but you cant fix something or call it broken when its WAI.
    If you go by the logic of some of the people in this thread we would have to run without any classes to be legit.

    theFabricant would seem to disagree: http://forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/comment/12889374/#Comment_12889374

    comander's strike does not do any of the thing people in this thread are claming. you need to go read the tool tip. here i will break it down for everyone. mod 9 tool tip: commander's strike "you strike your foe and command your allies to strike the same foe. the next attack each ally makes against that foe deals bonus damage aginst the target for 4 seconds," it says commander's stike will cause hits done by your allies to deal bounse damage not buff there damage. this bonus damage is based off of the gf states and the damage is uneffecteed by the value of the hit. the bonus damage is counted as damage delt by the gf becuase it is damage being delt by the gf. commander's strike is a debuff not a buff. when the debuff is on a target any hits on that target will apply commander's strike no matter how much or how little damage the hits do they will proc commander's strike cuasing it to tick for its damage. mod 10 patch notes copy and pasted: We reworked the buff that Commander’s Strike provides. It now only affects Encounter powers, and it now triggers when hitting any Marked target, instead of needing to specify yet another target with the power. This should make it easier for your teammates to see who to hit to get the benefit. The power also had several bugs that we fixed – it will generate AP now, it will have an activation time, and it will be affected by damage buff, debuffs, and resistance.

    CS is scaling multiple times, if you think 50 million+ hits with it are working as intended, then idk.
    And while they did say that mod 5 sets were letting people clear dungeons too quickly they also said they weren't the only culprit, just the easiest to fix.


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  • hypervoreianhypervoreian Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    tom#6998 said:



    xD i just read u are talking about hadars grasp xD. U sir just earned your Trophy for beeing the silliest human alive.

    Reported.
    personal attacks and insults on innocent players,as myself :/ is not the way to go.Learn to play your class sir,before you start flaming and attacking.And why you went into a rage anyway.Cause i missed a word?it is arms of hadar.


    You said dear player:
    "The vids over our runs will be up soon. What will u blame it on when u see we run totaly legit?
    i wanst using any boss bug mechanics"

    but...


    "Sharpedge Online
    1) Because you need an OP to skip call of winter, speed run = saving time and every second counts.

    2) SW did not use arms of hadar on 2nd or 3rd boss."

    ha ha ha lol :)

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    -------------------------

    As you see dear forumers one member of that runs,clearly bugged the hatti,when he was called for it,he denied it,while the cw of that run,in the video comments accepted it.
    These are the players that sadly give feedback to the devs.Lies lies more lies.No need to watch any new video from them,they will have bugged their run anyway.pitty!!!! :/



  • agilestoagilesto Member Posts: 516 Arc User
    (I don't have any of the old sets)

    That being said, I don't really get it. People are always asking for a more balanced game, and that's normal.
    These sets are old, very old, coming from the very beginning of the game. Their set bonus were creating for a content that is now absolutly outdated. The fact that it still performs well on the new content cannot be WAI, in any way. The set is an old lvl 60, it should not perform on the 70+ content. It's a MMO, gear is supposed to evolve, to get outdated, which means another gear to grind, etc it's the normal life of that kind of game. I don't ask you if you like the set or not, but i'm asking if you find NORMAL that in this kind of game, an old lvl 60 set is BiS over new gear on new content, after years of game evolution ?
    That leads to another problem, that gear now doesn't have personalized set bonus, and i agree that it should be great but that's not the question, it's another topic i'd be glad to participate.
    It was "only" a matter of time (years, but that's how Cryptic works doesn't it ?) before these sets get reworked, removed or nerfed. It was an evidence for every MMO player, because a very old content cannot perform better, cannot be BiS after years of game development and new way more difficult content.

    I see LOTS of people saying that sets souldn't be removed because they are not the root of the problem and their set bonus is not "that" effective. All i can say is : why the hell a problem (because that is a problem) shouldn't be resolved because it's not the most important ? Every problem need to be changed, no regard on it's importance. Today it's removing the old sets, tomorrow it's fixind that broken spell, and so on.
    I agree that developers' reasons are not the best because sets are definitly not the main broken thing at the moment. Another thing is asterdhal said that it was really simple to remove the set bonus, like deleting a line of code. So i'm asking why didn't they do that before, because the topic of these sets is not recent, far from it and i'm pretty sure developpers were aware of it since the 70+ content was released.

    Now considering people who ask for a compensation, i can just laugh. Why should they compensate you ? It's definitly not like the Lostmauth set compensation because elol set was a refining grind, and considering that 99,99% of the middle-end game players were wearing it, it's a normal thing to offer the replacement of that set by another if you want to.
    Now these sets are years old. If you are still wearing it, because it's BiS or almost, then you didn't have to grind or buy any kind of gear, and there were some during the evolution of the game. That means you saved time and money comparing to others. And if you bought the set recently, and you spent millions and millions of AD on it, then it's your own fault. Everyone makes errors, and that's sad, but you should have known that very old sets couldn't be BiS for eternity.
    Now consider the aspect of a "normal" player who grind the new gear because it's better, like a classic evolution of a MMO. Everytime a new gear is released, it's better than the previous one. Do you see any player asking for compensation ? Like thousand of other people, i grinded motes (fire, water and earth) to get new weapons that were BiS. Then Twisted set came out, way better for my class. Should i ask a compensation for that ? Hell no because it's normal. It's sad for me because that means new grind, but it's normal.


    tl;dr : If the set bonus is not that important, why are you that affected ? Old lvl 60 gear still BiS now, isn't it a problem ? Yes, so it should be resolved. Were the old sets the main broken thing ? No, but does that mean it shouldn't be fix ? Neither, it's just a new step on the very long process of balancing the game. Do you need a compensation for it ? No, and i invite you to read before text because i can't resume it ^^ Do you have to get a new gear ? Yes, but i'm pretty sure possessors of the old sets have plenty of AD if they buy it recently or if they are old players so that souldn't be a problem.
    Was just my 2 cents, and i'm sorry for the bad english.
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User

    tom#6998 said:



    xD i just read u are talking about hadars grasp xD. U sir just earned your Trophy for beeing the silliest human alive.

    Reported.
    personal attacks and insults on innocent players,as myself :/ is not the way to go.Learn to play your class sir,before you start flaming and attacking.And why you went into a rage anyway.Cause i missed a word?it is arms of hadar.


    You said dear player:
    "The vids over our runs will be up soon. What will u blame it on when u see we run totaly legit?
    i wanst using any boss bug mechanics"

    but...


    "Sharpedge Online
    1) Because you need an OP to skip call of winter, speed run = saving time and every second counts.

    2) SW did not use arms of hadar on 2nd or 3rd boss."

    ha ha ha lol :)

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    -------------------------

    As you see dear forumers one member of that runs,clearly bugged the hatti,when he was called for it,he denied it,while the cw of that run,in the video comments accepted it.
    These are the players that sadly give feedback to the devs.Lies lies more lies.No need to watch any new video from them,they will have bugged their run anyway.pitty!!!! :/



    videos will be up soon xD implies im talking about our new videos in which arms is alrdy fixed xD. Innocent player? u are blaming others on exploiting without even knowing what u are talking about. And since when is running with an OP exploiting? if we follow your logic we have to run without any classes. Thank god we provide feedback and not people like you who clearly know nothing about the game.
    urabask said:

    tom#6998 said:

    no cause this thread is about old sets. They said they are the main thing letting us clear dungeons so fast. And btw if you read the patchnotes from stormkingsthunder u will see that Commanderstrike is WAI now. It may be to strong but its in fact no bug/exploit or anything like that. So yes they can/should nerf it, but you cant fix something or call it broken when its WAI.
    If you go by the logic of some of the people in this thread we would have to run without any classes to be legit.

    theFabricant would seem to disagree: http://forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/comment/12889374/#Comment_12889374

    comander's strike does not do any of the thing people in this thread are claming. you need to go read the tool tip. here i will break it down for everyone. mod 9 tool tip: commander's strike "you strike your foe and command your allies to strike the same foe. the next attack each ally makes against that foe deals bonus damage aginst the target for 4 seconds," it says commander's stike will cause hits done by your allies to deal bounse damage not buff there damage. this bonus damage is based off of the gf states and the damage is uneffecteed by the value of the hit. the bonus damage is counted as damage delt by the gf becuase it is damage being delt by the gf. commander's strike is a debuff not a buff. when the debuff is on a target any hits on that target will apply commander's strike no matter how much or how little damage the hits do they will proc commander's strike cuasing it to tick for its damage. mod 10 patch notes copy and pasted: We reworked the buff that Commander’s Strike provides. It now only affects Encounter powers, and it now triggers when hitting any Marked target, instead of needing to specify yet another target with the power. This should make it easier for your teammates to see who to hit to get the benefit. The power also had several bugs that we fixed – it will generate AP now, it will have an activation time, and it will be affected by damage buff, debuffs, and resistance.

    CS is scaling multiple times, if you think 50 million+ hits with it are working as intended, then idk.
    And while they did say that mod 5 sets were letting people clear dungeons too quickly they also said they weren't the only culprit, just the easiest to fix.


    Only cause Sharp says its not WAI doesnt mean its WAI. From reading the Tooltip and Patchnotes u cant say its not WAI. We are still waiting for the devs to answer if this is inteded or not.
  • dfncedfnce Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 509 Arc User
    @asterdahl

    It is late but valid call. I wondered if HP set stay in game "as is" forever, it would be still best set in next modules, even if NWO gets another level cap. Developers when moving to mod 6 (and new level cap) didn't removed or correctly adjusted them, which doesn't change fact they don't belong to legitimate way of playing the game.

    HP set is T1 set in pre-mod 6 terminology, not mod 5. It came with closed beta and since that time none of Cleric sets could ever complete with it in "fast run" parties. Every new cleric set which came since public beta was invalidated by effectiveness of HP bonus. Topic of adjustment of bonus of this set appeared on forums before but never solved.
    EX-DL-BtS / ITF-KC-KB / BF-HD-IBS / FtF-IT-ST-Dis / CA-GW-PG
    "When no appropriate rule applies, make one up."
    — (The unwritten rule)


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  • hypervoreianhypervoreian Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    tom#6998 said:



    ...videos will be up soon xD implies im talking about our new videos in which arms is alrdy fixed xD.

    But you said that at 12.58pm while your buddy the Cw posted videos that proved that FBi can be done in a legit way in

    thefabricant Posts: 3,275 Arc User
    7:29AM edited 7:30AM .........

    "FBI in 17:05 without any mod 5 sets."

    ROLFMAO!!!

    What anyone intelligent guy can tell is that Sharp posted videos where natsu used arms of hadar.lol :) lol lol trololol :P

    can at least you two before posting false info in forums agree in what to post and stop embarassing yourselves??
    shame!!!

    First for you Tom cause you indirectly implied you used arms in previous runs "new videos in which arms is alrdy fixed "

    Second for Sharp that posted these videos claiming FBi can be speedrun with out old sets in legit way.But in that videos his buddy used arms of hadaar to bug the giants ...."videos will be up soon xD implies im talking about our new videos "
    .
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    Guy saying that long after Sharp postec the "new" (lol) videos!


    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    lol.ROLFMAO epic fail :P :P :)

    Post edited by hypervoreian on
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  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    yeah and as u can clearly see in the new videos (posted 6:29AM) ARMS DOESNT BUG ANYTHING and in the old vids( the one from Bethel) i TOOK OUT ARMS ON ALL BOSSES WHICH WHERE BUGGED BY THEM ( TURTLE; DRUFFI).
    So from what u are saying using arms now is forbidden cause it bugged the mobs 2 patches ago? you are so hilariuos.
    U failed epic xD maybe learn to read before posting.
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  • torontodavetorontodave Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 992 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    At least with those player powers that might be out of hand, every group potentially has access to that same pool of abilities.

    B)

    NW-DSQ39N5SJ - 'To Infinity, and BEYOND!' - Spelljammer Quest. Skyships, Indiana Jones moments
    NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
    Thanks for all the fish.
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  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    Sharp thinks that tbh, it doesn't matter either way, but sure, if it makes people happy or feel like some good has been done, it can be nerfed.

    Sharp thinks that the only mod 5 set that is actually broken is the fabled set. He also thinks that the high vizier set is of questionable strength, the knight's captain set is balanced and the high prophet set might not even be best in slot.

    Sharp thinks the devs made a mistake with Commander's Strike, they forgot that because the hit it procs off of already scales with buffs, by making CS itself scale with buffs, you making CS essentially benefit twice.

    Sharp thinks that things like CS, the ambush drake, TC, etc should be addressed first.

    Maybe Sharp should
    urabask said:
    stop



    As you see dear forumers one member of that runs,clearly bugged the hatti,when he was called for it,he denied it,while the cw of that run,in the video comments accepted it.

    thinking
    tom#6998 said:



    Only cause Sharp says its not WAI doesnt mean its WAI. From reading the Tooltip and Patchnotes u cant say its not WAI. We are still waiting for the devs to answer if this is inteded or not.

    because other people can think and talk for him.
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    well said :)
  • urabaskurabask Member Posts: 2,923 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    I guess that I'm supposed to wait for you to translate your posts because apparently your English is some sort of magical language whose meaning morphs depending on your mood?
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  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited October 2016

    The gist is-nerf all the buffs and debuffs, fix the bugs, but leave the sets alone. That way, only those with the sets have an advantage.

    No, the gist of it is it would be nice if people would stop quoting me and I could speak for myself >.>

    What I said was:

    It doesn't really matter if the sets are nerfed so sure, why not, if it makes the people who think its huge happy, but it would be nice if long standing issues that actually matter (unlike the sets) were also resolved.
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