3+2 might be interesting indeed. Glad to hear you tested it vs him.
I'm testing stuff too to find out how to adapt my gear choice (soulforged, lathander set). Cause that's the gear i got and can't change it all each module for a new "META". Basically: i thought the build might work better with your specific gear/ choice of stats. Mine is quite different and i noticed this:
- with your build i'm more free, damage is still good but i use restoring strike cause i need to complement my survivability. Sadly, Lathander set+SF<<<<<<eLoL+T.Negation. Once dead, i find myself stripped of all buffs vs a fully buffed enemy. The build basically works for me up to a certain level. Vs BiS enemies i fall short of DPS (i have only 4k ArP at the moment, 12k power, 31% crit chance, cause lathander set gives recovery). Went for CON in place of str for HP+DRI that is not affected by tenacity (i suppose, since it's not ArP). Using SF; i needed larger HP pool. So when facing BiS enemies and paladins, i couldn't really damage them.
Tried following rotation: daggers, daring shout, restoring strike. Double mark with threat rush. Damage increased dramatically, but i lost mobility. Still, the damage from DS mark seems much, much higher than what i achieve with battlefury (25% buff from numbers). And i found out that with such rotation i can take down Paladins and eat HPs from BiS players where i couldn't do the same with BF. I think it's because mark is piercing damage, am i right? Pro: much more damage, can DS right after resurrection--->unstoppable--->second life+i get back the buffs fast Con: loss of BF stamina mobility and freedom/ footwork.
Wanted to see if a BF+double mark combo would still make damage high enough. BF should compensate for the loss of either IBS-RS. I'm doubtful...RS gives me stamina+burst+healing...
So my doubt now is that my gear doesn't fit the build right now. But, DS+executioner's style might buff SS enough to compensate for the loss of RS? While giving me the "advantage" of the double mark and DS determination gain after Lathander's resurrection. I'm not sure...
So basically so far it seems like my gear and lack of higher offensive stats forces me to use daring shout. Doubt is how might work if i give up RS for BF, grab a couple of points from CS and place them on executioner, and deal damage though superbuffed sure strike. Cause, also, it's not just about "stacking" countless scars in a fight: when i "resurrect", countless scars buff is lost, while, if the enemy is (probably) low HP, my executioner's style buff is active. So switching points might be even more valuable for me.
will keep testing.
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
A few things
1. Negation + Feytouch is necessary to mitigate your opponent's dmg, debuffing his dmg while buffing yours, keeps you alive A LOT better than Soulforge, without the "tankibility", you are already disadvantaged.
2. You will always need a damaging encounter, be it Takedown or IBS, Darling Shout is only good debuffing a group of enemies in a big scale fight for your teammate, without a damaging encounter that makes it hard for you to give 'bursts'.
3. Forget about RS, its quickier but it does not deal enough damage. You should relay on Life Steal+Endless Consumption to regain your HP, and Battlefury to regain your stamina. Takedown for consistent push or IBS for heavy burst combos is the way to go, in high level fight even if your enemy only has 10%life left, he could make a fast comback with water wheel+life steals, and RS could just give them the chance for that while IBS would finish them off straight.
4. Darling Shout is good if you can hit your opponent, I have played with Ayroux and Tyrion in many fights, while Darling Shout could debuff me, they often have trouble catching up with me to deal the deadly blows, and if they miss their darling shout, then they are easy target for another 15 seconds. Considering the range of darling shout and the diversity, its not a very ideal choice unless you are in a big scale fight being able to effectively debuff a lot of your enemies for your team.
I may post a few videos about how this build performs against BiS players if I have the chance later...
1. Negation + Feytouch is necessary to mitigate your opponent's dmg, debuffing his dmg while buffing yours, keeps you alive A LOT better than Soulforge, without the "tankibility", you are already disadvantaged.
2. You will always need a damaging encounter, be it Takedown or IBS, Darling Shout is only good debuffing a group of enemies in a big scale fight for your teammate, without a damaging encounter that makes it hard for you to give 'bursts'.
3. Forget about RS, its quickier but it does not deal enough damage. You should relay on Life Steal+Endless Consumption to regain your HP, and Battlefury to regain your stamina. Takedown for consistent push or IBS for heavy burst combos is the way to go, in high level fight even if your enemy only has 10%life left, he could make a fast comback with water wheel+life steals, and RS could just give them the chance for that while IBS would finish them off straight.
4. Darling Shout is good if you can hit your opponent, I have played with Ayroux and Tyrion in many fights, while Darling Shout could debuff me, they often have trouble catching up with me to deal the deadly blows, and if they miss their darling shout, then they are easy target for another 15 seconds. Considering the range of darling shout and the diversity, its not a very ideal choice unless you are in a big scale fight being able to effectively debuff a lot of your enemies for your team.
I may post a few videos about how this build performs against BiS players if I have the chance later...
1) This is necessary only really versus GWFs 1v1. When fighting other classes like CW or HR I think an elven actually out performs since you will always be able to attack. Combined with Daring shout which will WRECK those classes since your ultra tanky, have super high stam regen, and hit like a truck. However that setup is weak versus other GWFs... Versus Battle Fury I think performs better versus other GWFs since you can kite them around however how many times does a 1v1 verse another GWF actually happen in PVP? almost never...
2) Daring Shout can really be excellent. The pros and cons are Battle Fury gives stamina regen for utility while Daring Shout gives more damage and gives allies more damage and gives you a really nice DR boost...
3) Im still a big fan of IBS. Usually in PVP its burst damage that kills players, with things like Elven the impact of Takedown is nullified quite a bit... Thats just me. Also I like being able to smack players for 60-80k hits with IBS
4) Im looking forward to playing you more Icy. Last time we fought I had 300 ping and realized after we played I had messed up feats. I for some reason had Deep gash and no Unfetted Strikes - which gave you perma uptime on Negation + Countless and my run speed was up to 20% lower.... So well see.
I definitely am coming around to the idea of Battle Fury though. Overall the utility it offers is better than Daring Shout. I think the trick is going to be finding that sweet balance between Countless Scars/Exec Style/Relentless.
I think they all warrant some points maybe a 3/3/4 or something. I did notice the first 3 points of Relentless dropped the CD by 1 second per point. The 4 and 5th had a decreasing return.... Countless Scars - youll almost never have 15 stacks up and if you do it means your getting pounded by 2+ players so an added 3%-6% may not really help in the long run. Maybe 4/2/4 makes more sense IDk.... In order to even get 12 stacks of countless you have to get hit every second 2x per second... Most of the time I would bet youll have <10 stacks. So I could see a 3/3/4 being optimal....
Take down has half the base damage of IBS, with this setup you can cast TD more than two times faster then IBS On top missing your opponent it recharges in zero second My GWF 2.3 k crit up to very respectable numbers on soft targets So all in all TD is not that bad as most ppl think, probably never tested themself? IBS is so slow has a long CD and no CC
Post edited by schietindebux on
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
edited October 2015
@ayroux I agree with most you've said, however in my experience BF actually performs even better against most other classes, since you will be able to always sprint right next to them to deal damage, the advantage includes:
- Being able to always sprint right next to them instead of being kited.
- More stamina/sprint allowing higher chance of cancelling CC attacks
- Fast movements allowing us to effectively close the gap and interrupt their rotations
- Battlefury's damage buff is always effective on you unlike Darling Shout that requires a close range and a long cooldown. (I believe Battlefury's effectiveness is 8 seconds, my battlefury's cooldown is about 10 seconds, which means I can almost always benefit from the damage buff and the free stamina refill)
- More stamina also means you will be able to utilise attack patterns that requires more movement (which I have demostrated to Tyrion) this is a noticible tactical advantage.
I believe Darling Shout debuffs your target's defence by approximately 30%, while Battlefury buffs up your damage by approximately 25%, so if we are talking about just the damaging bit, it will be a question about how much Damage resist your target has and how much DPS you can output. In my experience, Darling Shout generally wins on the damaging department.
However, as a matter of fact, Darling Shout does not always hit, and requires close distance, when it misses its a waste of 15 seconds cooldown, whereas Battlefury offers more mobility and the buff is always effective on the user, making it a more reliable encounter overall.
As to using IBS or TD, I personally believe IBS is more effective against GWF while Takedown is better against most other classes (this depends on their builds and fighting style), and this is what I have learnt from my personal experience.
- Damage wise IBS is about 11 seconds cooldown for me, TD is about 5.6 second, which means with the same amount of time, I can either cast 2 TD or 1 IBS, the result of the total damage from the encounters itself is pretty similar, however TD's cooldown resets instantly if missed (with feats) plus it also offers 1~2 seconds CC effect (or 2~4 seconds with 2 TDs) which allows you to throw in a few more Sure Strike, Hidden Dagger or combo with daily more reliably, the total added up damage is generally more than an IBS.
- TD as a "damaging" CC can be casted every 5.5~6 seconds, which allows you to consistently pressure your target making it a noticible tactical advantage, if your TD hits, it stuns the target for 1~2 seconds, which means it only allows your target to move for another 4 seconds before they have to be ready to avoid another attack, this could effectively interrupts your target's rotations.
There are however EXCEPTION, and this is why IBS could sometimes be more effective in some cases.
- If your daily can frequently hit the target and dealing 50% for HP or so, then an IBS could be the finisher straight. (All you need to do is to bring down their HP to ~70%, then one daily + IBS to finish up)
- Opponents like GWF has Unstoppable which gains temp HP and nullifies CC effect, using TD effectively helps them build up determination which means they can go unstoppable more often gaining a lot of temp HP and possibly self-heals from feats, however an IBS while giving them more determination, would only allow them to go unstoppable one time (although it might be longer) but they would have less self-heal and less temp-hp overall, making IBS a more ideal choice against GWFs.
So in conclusion, both TD and IBS are good choices, it depends on the opponent you are facing. I do however agree that finding the 'sweet spot' between Exectioner's Style, Rentless Battlefury and Countless Scars might further fine tune this build (thanks for the input @Pando83 and Ayroux!)
As a side note, Battlefury offers distinctive advantage when you do premade in DOM you could - Switch node to assist faster than any other class (we all know fast and correct switching is often the key of winning premade fights)
- Making some tactics possible, such as sprinting to the middle of two nodes for a quick heal then sprinting back to your node to continue the fight (takes like 5 second, and your node wont be capped that fast) this way your DC wont have to travel too far and can heal the whole team from different nodes more effectively.
- Double sprint to reach a node faster could sometimes make the difference of capping a node or losing a node, and the chance is you would still have stamina left for the incoming fight once you reached the node instead of being CCed upon arrival.
PS: Has anyone tested if you gain 2 stacks of Countless Scar from each hit if opponent uses a FeyTouch/PF/Terror type of enchantment that grants a bonus hit? If it does, then Countless Scar could still be worth 4~5 points...
1) This is necessary only really versus GWFs 1v1. When fighting other classes like CW or HR I think an elven actually out performs since you will always be able to attack. Combined with Daring shout which will WRECK those classes since your ultra tanky, have super high stam regen, and hit like a truck. However that setup is weak versus other GWFs... Versus Battle Fury I think performs better versus other GWFs since you can kite them around however how many times does a 1v1 verse another GWF actually happen in PVP? almost never...
2) Daring Shout can really be excellent. The pros and cons are Battle Fury gives stamina regen for utility while Daring Shout gives more damage and gives allies more damage and gives you a really nice DR boost...
3) Im still a big fan of IBS. Usually in PVP its burst damage that kills players, with things like Elven the impact of Takedown is nullified quite a bit... Thats just me. Also I like being able to smack players for 60-80k hits with IBS
4) Im looking forward to playing you more Icy. Last time we fought I had 300 ping and realized after we played I had messed up feats. I for some reason had Deep gash and no Unfetted Strikes - which gave you perma uptime on Negation + Countless and my run speed was up to 20% lower.... So well see.
I definitely am coming around to the idea of Battle Fury though. Overall the utility it offers is better than Daring Shout. I think the trick is going to be finding that sweet balance between Countless Scars/Exec Style/Relentless.
I think they all warrant some points maybe a 3/3/4 or something. I did notice the first 3 points of Relentless dropped the CD by 1 second per point. The 4 and 5th had a decreasing return.... Countless Scars - youll almost never have 15 stacks up and if you do it means your getting pounded by 2+ players so an added 3%-6% may not really help in the long run. Maybe 4/2/4 makes more sense IDk.... In order to even get 12 stacks of countless you have to get hit every second 2x per second... Most of the time I would bet youll have <10 stacks. So I could see a 3/3/4 being optimal....</p>
Icy i know to compete you need T.Fey+T.Neg, and that the combo T.Fey+T.Neg+eLoL set basically places the user on a different level. I know what i should do to compete at higher levels. But. That means i must use what everyone else uses, the BiS stuff every competitive PvPer must use. I just can't do that. I know it means i'll never be competitive vs BiS players unless the devs actually balance stuff, but i doubt they'll ever do that.
Thing is, given that i just refuse to use blatantly overpowered items (while i understand why the ones competing at the top are basically forced to use them), what i'm trying to do is push the efficiency of something else, which in this case is finding sinergies between Soulforged+Lathander set and powers. I might, probably, soon go for T.Fey, but basically just because even if it's one of the "overpowered trinity" items, i just need that specific enchant effect. Pretty sure they will "fix it" the day i get it however given my "luck" XD.
Once i get wheel to mythic (tried your HD trick but i still don't get the buff often -_-' disappointing. I'm not under "wheel depression", so i should get the buff. Shoot the artifact but...nothing happens.) and T.Fey, i'll rethink the use of RS, but right now what i basically do is compensate a bit the loss of stamina from BF with the stamina gain from RS, while boosting my damage with BF mark that allows me to partially overcome the lack of enough ArP and T.Fey. If i use IBS without BF, i might end up short in stamina (i also have only rank 7 darks in utility and no stamina power up on jewelry). My aim is to basically raise my HP, get LS to 20%, mythic wheel healing with 1 min cooldown, T.SF for 3s CC immunity, raise ArP with SH boon high enough, then rethink the build. T.SF cc immunity is important to me cause that way i can shoot wheel and get the buff without getting CCed and interrupted--->killed right away.
Yeah i figured out that giving up 1 burst encounter won't work. Thanks for the insight on the matter. I think once i get T.Fey and ArP i might switch back to BF and IBS. But right now mark doubled from DS is the only thing that lets me "get through" the defenses of BiS players, where with BF i got the feeling that my stats and enchant didn't allow me to deal enough damage to even scratch them.
I also proposed in the feedback section a way to make Lathander set work without forcing players to go for SF.
I like mobility and footwork from your build more, but as you said, T.Fey and T.Neg are key, and i don't use them both. Will never use them both most likely, hoping for a re-balance of the enchants. What i could consistently do with the build was avoid kiting from other classes and vs GWFs beating them making them unable to land their big hits, as you said, trying to kite their unstoppable to slow down their stacks build-up. I liked that more than a "stationary" build.
Question: powerful challenge, does the feat double buff you if you double mark? Cause the increase in damage with double mark is really high.
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
edited October 2015
added 3 videos doing 1 vs 1 with some of the BiS top GWFs in game, Mjohir (@ayroux, Absolute) and Jasmin (@blackyluke, EoA)
many thx to all And thx for sharing builds like this because it prevents lots of player to post same questions several times Would be good to implement a sticky or subsection for actual builds in this forum in general
Nice fight vs Ayroux. Videos prove that mobility for GWF is very important.
I learned it watching Ayroux GWFvsGWF video during module 2 i believe. And then tried to make it count the most in my fights. Footwork is important but it's for skilled players. It was a pleasure to watch you and ayroux kiting each others, hit and "dodge" until one of the two landed the critical combo.
That video actually shows how skilled GWFs play.
Most GWFs i met in PvP in these 2+ years barely move and their gameplay is brainless, they expect other GWFs to facetank. When you kite them, they insult you saying you "run like a HAMSTER", when instead it's actually that they are too lazy and unskilled to make good use of sprint with some good footwork at the right moment.
Thanks for sharing and posting.
Hope more GWFs watch the videos and learn how to properly play a GWF with skills, and what's the difference between skillful GWFs and brainless GWFs in PvP.
The first video is a pleasure to watch, i'd love to see you and ayroux vs Sobek, which is said to be (and looks like from his videos) one of the most skilled BiS players in the game.
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
You were right about a lot of players underestimating the importance of footwork, and also right about how people whines at this hit-and-run tactic.
As a matter of fact Blackyluke complained just exactly the same thing, so I agreed to fight him in melee range within Hidden Dagger's range (node size) and the result was I beaten him 4 times in a row in melee. (As you can see, one of the videos is done in melee range) This proves, this build can excel even in melee combat range, not just a kiter, but with kiter tactics, its even stronger
Ayroux was not using battlefury until he fought me a week or so ago, as per his previous post, he then see the potential in Battlefury and is now enjoying the speedy fighting style, its great to have him, a very wellknown an experienced GWF recognizing this build
Nice fight vs Ayroux. Videos prove that mobility for GWF is very important.
I learned it watching Ayroux GWFvsGWF video during module 2 i believe. And then tried to make it count the most in my fights. Footwork is important but it's for skilled players. It was a pleasure to watch you and ayroux kiting each others, hit and "dodge" until one of the two landed the critical combo.
That video actually shows how skilled GWFs play.
Most GWFs i met in PvP in these 2+ years barely move and their gameplay is brainless, they expect other GWFs to facetank. When you kite them, they insult you saying you "run like a HAMSTER", when instead it's actually that they are too lazy and unskilled to make good use of sprint with some good footwork at the right moment.
Thanks for sharing and posting.
Hope more GWFs watch the videos and learn how to properly play a GWF with skills, and what's the difference between skillful GWFs and brainless GWFs in PvP.
The first video is a pleasure to watch, i'd love to see you and ayroux vs Sobek, which is said to be (and looks like from his videos) one of the most skilled BiS players in the game.
added 3 videos doing 1 vs 1 with some of the BiS top GWFs in game, Mjohir (@ayroux, Absolute) and Jasmin (@blackyluke, EoA)
Links added to the bottom of first post.
Yeah we definitely had some good games! went back and forth a ton of times, cant wait to test more! I think the "meta" would change drastically with access to the ARP boon and the LS boon (currently have power/HP).
The thing I will say is that overall this build has less "max' damage output however has more utility. The ability to sprint more is crucial for PVP and while Daring Shout does spit out more damage (about 7.3% more from ACT testing) you have to land the shout to mark, and then lose the mobility with Battle Fury where as Battle Fury can be cast away from the target to close the gap and then not require you to spend ~2 seconds of animation time casting daring shout while NEAR the target.
Ive been testing Battle Fury and its definitely fun and worth trying. Still trying to find the "sweet spot" though because it sucks you have yo give up Exec Style and I have yet to test versus classes like CW and HR... Also I am curious to test on a PVP node, I have a suspicion the difference between the two (DS and BF) will be very small on a fight over a PVP node... But considering all I do is get PUGs when I Q it makes ANY build feel like its OP (ROFL).
I think that being aknowledged by and old time GWF BiS player like ayroux is a sign this build is indeed a very effective and good build. Plus it's original.
I thought of this, don't know if it's better or not...
4/5 countless scars (12% DR, faster to stack. If an enemy kites you for 6 seconds you have to rebuild all stacks, so 3% DR loss on a Neg user shouldn't change much)
4/5 focused destroyer: hard to stack in PvP, stacks last for a small amount of time, less reliable than executioner's style that is a solid help to finish off the enemy fast. With 4 points however, you lose only 2,1% DPS at 3 stacks and 5% chance, keeping a solid 20% chance and a 33,3% damage buff. 3/5 with 15% chance is another option but losing more DPS and 15% chance is a bit low may be. so
3/5 focused destroyer might be another option
4/5 relentless battle fury: yeah i know the build is based around BF, but basically you lose 0.5s duration and like 1.6s cooldown reduction which might be inside the "delay" you may have using it (during a fight, you might not use exactly as soon as the cooldown is over if you're busy dodging or fighting)
3/5 Executioner's style: 18% buff on sure strike and IBS, solid, you can finish fights faster with SS and a well placed IBS, which can:
- help more than 3% DR from countless scars - help more than the last point in Focused destroyer which in PvP is less reliable due to stacks lasting not enough - be worth it to just give up a little bit of relentless BF ( 1 point), which might not be that noticeable if you have good enough recovery.
18% damage buff+25% from BF = 43% total buff on SS and on an IBS finisher once your enemy is at lower HP isn't bad right?
What do you think?
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
Executioner Style seem to be able to consistently output more damage when whacking face to face, however smart GWF wont give you much chance to whack face to face unless they are in unstoppable and you are not, when its the other way around, they would dodge away to waste your unstoppable which makes this feat less powerful. Only time I find this feat performing well is only when
1. Both GWFS are whacking face to face even in unstoppable mode (Like said above, the chance is slim vs smart GWFs) 2. Dealing IBS after daily, sometimes it hits very hard (70~80k with just IBS), sometimes it doesn't (15~20k), I am still wondering if its because I land IBS too late and they were already standing causing the IBS to 'deflect' or if its something else...
So far I feel this feat could be useful against OP/GF the less mobile targets, however its still a challenge trying to take down OP or not getting 2 shotted by BiS GFs, which means its hard to really get the full potential of this feat, I need to do more test to find out if there is a way to make it more useful in practical fights.
Other notes
Reducing 2 points in Rentless Battlefury has been a noticible delay in sprint tactic and makes it harder to get the full potential of Takedown.
Reducing 2 points in Countless Scar seem to make no difference in pug fights, but is noticibly taking more dmg while fighting with Lancer yesterday, there was no more 5 minutes fight.
Reducing 1 point in Destoyer's Purpose seem to make little difference.
My experience with the new tweak in 5/5 Exectuioner Style is, it has potential to deal more damage, only if you can consistently spike your target's HP and consideringly high level fight is often touch-based bursts + consistent normal attacks, that makes Executioner Style less useful, but it will be useful against average players that fights you face to face, but you can probably beat them with or without footwork anyway, so it really only makes little difference.
Will do more tests and give more updates later....
I think that being aknowledged by and old time GWF BiS player like ayroux is a sign this build is indeed a very effective and good build. Plus it's original.
I thought of this, don't know if it's better or not...
4/5 countless scars (12% DR, faster to stack. If an enemy kites you for 6 seconds you have to rebuild all stacks, so 3% DR loss on a Neg user shouldn't change much)
4/5 focused destroyer: hard to stack in PvP, stacks last for a small amount of time, less reliable than executioner's style that is a solid help to finish off the enemy fast. With 4 points however, you lose only 2,1% DPS at 3 stacks and 5% chance, keeping a solid 20% chance and a 33,3% damage buff. 3/5 with 15% chance is another option but losing more DPS and 15% chance is a bit low may be. so
3/5 focused destroyer might be another option
4/5 relentless battle fury: yeah i know the build is based around BF, but basically you lose 0.5s duration and like 1.6s cooldown reduction which might be inside the "delay" you may have using it (during a fight, you might not use exactly as soon as the cooldown is over if you're busy dodging or fighting)
3/5 Executioner's style: 18% buff on sure strike and IBS, solid, you can finish fights faster with SS and a well placed IBS, which can:
- help more than 3% DR from countless scars - help more than the last point in Focused destroyer which in PvP is less reliable due to stacks lasting not enough - be worth it to just give up a little bit of relentless BF ( 1 point), which might not be that noticeable if you have good enough recovery.
18% damage buff+25% from BF = 43% total buff on SS and on an IBS finisher once your enemy is at lower HP isn't bad right?
What gems are you using in offence, defense and utility?
offense = silvery and dark to balance Recovery and Armpen defense = dark and savage, balance out the life steal % and max HP for bursts utility = dark, for run speed
Thanks for sharing the results of your test icy! So basically in real fights with good opponents who dodge and move around, expecially at high levels exec style gets less chances to shine. Didn't consider that. New hp/LS boons from sh, when maxed, might give it even less chances to shine. Expecially considering that the buff on a ibs finisher in a SS-daily-ibs combo might be overkill (hitting a low hp enemy for 80k or 50k makes little difference be still dies), and as you described GFs can burst faster and OP is still hard to take down.
So i guess it's clearly bad taking away points from scars and relentless Bf. Might be a bit more viable to balance out with focused destroyer but not sure.
Interesting post. I have been running a similar build of yours. The only similar part is that I am running relentless feat and BF and TD instead the "meta". The reason I been using it is as soon as I touched the unfeatered strikes, I noticed how important this new mobility was adding to my survivality and closing gap (specially versus those meta CWs spamming repels on xbox). However, within my gear range, I have been performing quite good against most players and even other best geared GWFs using the basica FS+IBS. They very rarely can IBS.
One thing, I have been running different boons and enchantments. I am not using recovery at all. honestly, I think recovery is a waste of stats, but that is my opinion, I think it works different for different people. I do however oppose the talk that we lose DPS with this build. Somehow I feel a lot more deadly running this combo than the previous combo with IBS, BF, DARING SHOUT, FS, etc and executioner's style. I haven't missed executioner's style AT ALL. I feel my HD have been hitting really hard, takedown damage has been decent, and I have done up to 70k damage with it on PvP. I have dueled some of the best GWFs of the game running best in slot (ranks 12s, full mystic artifacts, wheels, etc, and legendaries, trans fey, trans negation). And in a particular time I was fighting probably the top one on xbox and I was able to put him really really low. He could not touch me much but he ended up beating me in the end. I couldn't compete against a mystic wheels considering mine was blue at the time (still purple now) And I am running rank 7s, nothing mystic, only my weapon is legendary at the moment. I think people who said the DPS of this build is lacking or that you need IBS to finish opponents are understimating the build. Personally, I think the build has more potential to work better with Darks or Azures on offense slots instead. But that is my opinion. I was kinda wanting to try to hide this build once I figured this out, but then I saw your post and I was like... dam...:(
Gannicus GWF PvP
DENIAL
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
edited October 2015
Yes, I agree with most u said.
As to the question about recovery, I guess its very dependent on your play style, for me, I love to be sprinting nonstop and being able to run in and out from fights, and recovery makes this a lot easier (it mostly helps on 1. Being able to benefit from BF almost all the time 2. More Threatening Rush to help you rush in and out on 'fast-contact' attacks 3. More Hidden Daggers to throw to ensure you always get buffs from HD's damage bonus' and obviously deal more dmg more consistently', the down side is, it would not produce as much BURST damage compare to using Executioner's Style when all buffs are present, however more consistent damage could bring the overall damage very close/similar except it also gives you more flexibility and more control over the field with more sprints/threatening rush/HD.
IMO, 4000~5000 Recovery is enough, the rest is good for azure or dark as you prefer, thanks for sharing your experience using a similar build, but yes, this build can be further tweaked to be played more offensively or defensively depending on how your build your char. In fact I have also previously posted some videos about how this build can go toe to toe in melee range with melee focused BiS GWFs and beat them just as good, unfortunately these videos were removed by the mod on the user's request.
I have in fact tweaked my build 3 more times after I originally posted this build and is now using a even deadlier build. I have had a few encounters 1 shotting some near BiS DCs with either 1 daily or just 1 IBS (dealing about 100~130k just the daily or IBS alone), but I will leave the experiments to you guys
Interesting post. I have been running a similar build of yours. The only similar part is that I am running relentless feat and BF and TD instead the "meta". The reason I been using it is as soon as I touched the unfeatered strikes, I noticed how important this new mobility was adding to my survivality and closing gap (specially versus those meta CWs spamming repels on xbox). However, within my gear range, I have been performing quite good against most players and even other best geared GWFs using the basica FS+IBS. They very rarely can IBS.
One thing, I have been running different boons and enchantments. I am not using recovery at all. honestly, I think recovery is a waste of stats, but that is my opinion, I think it works different for different people. I do however oppose the talk that we lose DPS with this build. Somehow I feel a lot more deadly running this combo than the previous combo with IBS, BF, DARING SHOUT, FS, etc and executioner's style. I haven't missed executioner's style AT ALL. I feel my HD have been hitting really hard, takedown damage has been decent, and I have done up to 70k damage with it on PvP. I have dueled some of the best GWFs of the game running best in slot (ranks 12s, full mystic artifacts, wheels, etc, and legendaries, trans fey, trans negation). And in a particular time I was fighting probably the top one on xbox and I was able to put him really really low. He could not touch me much but he ended up beating me in the end. I couldn't compete against a mystic wheels considering mine was blue at the time (still purple now) And I am running rank 7s, nothing mystic, only my weapon is legendary at the moment. I think people who said the DPS of this build is lacking or that you need IBS to finish opponents are understimating the build. Personally, I think the build has more potential to work better with Darks or Azures on offense slots instead. But that is my opinion. I was kinda wanting to try to hide this build once I figured this out, but then I saw your post and I was like... dam...:(
Hello Icedrake, wanted to telling u the i like your playStyle and the build itself, i will definitely try it out. currently i got a completely different build which works for me fine, so this is not a reason why i want to try ur's im just more than curious how it will work for me hehe, for example i actually don't use "battle fury" on fights and if i used it, is it just for running away lol,
well i'm planning to make some changes with the upcoming 2xRP,
I Notice that you also make some changes on the Live Server to this build, like ur rolls, (from Dex to STR) Did you also change some Feats and Boons?
---
got to 2 small questions,
Eleven haste ist really noticeable than 1,6k HP?
that 1Point on Heroic "Armor specialization", for me feels like a wasted point, 5% Unstoppable action sounds for me reasonable, what's your reason for?
well thank's for reading-
<::::::[]==0 GwF 0==[]::::::> ● Still waiting for the promised Improvement ●
0
icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
edited October 2015
Yes I made some adjustments to my build, changed from Dex to STR and also made some changes to the feats, however boons are generally still the same, its only the stats and feats that I tweaked
Elven Haste - honestly I am not sure if it makes much difference if any, however I have enough HP (14.2k) so I would rather choose something that is more offensive than defensive.
Basically I changed my build from mid dps - high mobility to high dps - mid~high mobility
Unstoppable Action - although not fully tested but judging from the feat's description I personally dont think it's gonna be that useful, cus 1. Its only effective when you are on Unstoppable. 2. Each point only gives you 5% extra AP (based on the AP you actually gained during unstoppable), which means if you gain a 10%AP during you 5 seconds unstoppable, you now gain 10.5% AP (correct me if I am wrong...) and that seems to be very underwhelming to me...) If we get additional FLAT 5% AP each point invested each time we use Unstoppable, then that would make some difference.... not sure, might test it out later
Edit: come to think about it, I probably wont bother, cus its only 1 point, I have invested 2 other points into Con bonus feats (whatever feat its called) and I would like those two points to stay there, considering AP is so easily gained with Recovery and such, I guess even if its 5% flat its probably not gonna make much diff
Hello Icedrake, wanted to telling u the i like your playStyle and the build itself, i will definitely try it out. currently i got a completely different build which works for me fine, so this is not a reason why i want to try ur's im just more than curious how it will work for me hehe, for example i actually don't use "battle fury" on fights and if i used it, is it just for running away lol,
well i'm planning to make some changes with the upcoming 2xRP,
I Notice that you also make some changes on the Live Server to this build, like ur rolls, (from Dex to STR) Did you also change some Feats and Boons?
---
got to 2 small questions,
Eleven haste ist really noticeable than 1,6k HP?
that 1Point on Heroic "Armor specialization", for me feels like a wasted point, 5% Unstoppable action sounds for me reasonable, what's your reason for?
Yes I made some adjustments to my build, changed from Dex to STR and also made some changes to the feats, however boons are generally still the same, its only the stats and feats that I tweaked
Elven Haste - honestly I am not sure if it makes much difference if any, however I have enough HP (14.2k) so I would rather choose something that is more offensive than defensive.
Basically I changed my build from mid dps - high mobility to high dps - mid~high mobility
Unstoppable Action - although not fully tested but judging from the feat's description I personally dont think it's gonna be that useful, cus 1. Its only effective when you are on Unstoppable. 2. Each point only gives you 5% extra AP (based on the AP you actually gained during unstoppable), which means if you gain a 10%AP during you 5 seconds unstoppable, you now gain 10.5% AP (correct me if I am wrong...) and that seems to be very underwhelming to me...) If we get additional FLAT 5% AP each point invested each time we use Unstoppable, then that would make some difference.... not sure, might test it out later
Edit: come to think about it, I probably wont bother, cus its only 1 point, I have invested 2 other points into Con bonus feats (whatever feat its called) and I would like those two points to stay there, considering AP is so easily gained with Recovery and such, I guess even if its 5% flat its probably not gonna make much diff
Hello Icedrake, wanted to telling u the i like your playStyle and the build itself, i will definitely try it out. currently i got a completely different build which works for me fine, so this is not a reason why i want to try ur's im just more than curious how it will work for me hehe, for example i actually don't use "battle fury" on fights and if i used it, is it just for running away lol,
well i'm planning to make some changes with the upcoming 2xRP,
I Notice that you also make some changes on the Live Server to this build, like ur rolls, (from Dex to STR) Did you also change some Feats and Boons?
---
got to 2 small questions,
Eleven haste ist really noticeable than 1,6k HP?
that 1Point on Heroic "Armor specialization", for me feels like a wasted point, 5% Unstoppable action sounds for me reasonable, what's your reason for?
well thank's for reading-
what about con? I was used to run CON DEX prior mod 6. However, I noticed CON give me little noticeable bonus on HP in mod 6, so I started run full dex / str. So I did not even put constituition focus. anything I am missing, or you going con for the RI? also one thing I run with this build is weapon mastery, This build since allows more sprints make it possible to run weapon mastery without the trouble of not reach your target or to not evade your opponent attacks, unlikely the other traditional builds where dropping bravery highly make you a easy target for the loss of mobility and deflection. I wonder if this is something to do with your change for "high dps and lower a little bit of your mobility".
Gannicus GWF PvP
DENIAL
0
icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
edited October 2015
Yes my existing build is a balance between Recovery, RI for offensive, Max HP/Life Steal (140k HP / 21% LL) for defensive, with the tweak between a few Feats to balance the recovery speed vs damage output/countless scar (only running 3/5 now), and the new build is dealing about 15~20% more dmg, however only 80~90% the mobility compare the the build I initially posted) The new build is essentially the same as old build but with a little tweak in feats and enchantments only.
Personally I think I would switch my build again to get 10~15% more dmg but 90~95% as mobile as the old build, and I hope you guys have fun with the tweakings
I am not gonna explain things in detail as its too much to explain, but in short, CON is good.
Yes I made some adjustments to my build, changed from Dex to STR and also made some changes to the feats, however boons are generally still the same, its only the stats and feats that I tweaked
Elven Haste - honestly I am not sure if it makes much difference if any, however I have enough HP (14.2k) so I would rather choose something that is more offensive than defensive.
Basically I changed my build from mid dps - high mobility to high dps - mid~high mobility
Unstoppable Action - although not fully tested but judging from the feat's description I personally dont think it's gonna be that useful, cus 1. Its only effective when you are on Unstoppable. 2. Each point only gives you 5% extra AP (based on the AP you actually gained during unstoppable), which means if you gain a 10%AP during you 5 seconds unstoppable, you now gain 10.5% AP (correct me if I am wrong...) and that seems to be very underwhelming to me...) If we get additional FLAT 5% AP each point invested each time we use Unstoppable, then that would make some difference.... not sure, might test it out later
Edit: come to think about it, I probably wont bother, cus its only 1 point, I have invested 2 other points into Con bonus feats (whatever feat its called) and I would like those two points to stay there, considering AP is so easily gained with Recovery and such, I guess even if its 5% flat its probably not gonna make much diff
Hello Icedrake, wanted to telling u the i like your playStyle and the build itself, i will definitely try it out. currently i got a completely different build which works for me fine, so this is not a reason why i want to try ur's im just more than curious how it will work for me hehe, for example i actually don't use "battle fury" on fights and if i used it, is it just for running away lol,
well i'm planning to make some changes with the upcoming 2xRP,
I Notice that you also make some changes on the Live Server to this build, like ur rolls, (from Dex to STR) Did you also change some Feats and Boons?
---
got to 2 small questions,
Eleven haste ist really noticeable than 1,6k HP?
that 1Point on Heroic "Armor specialization", for me feels like a wasted point, 5% Unstoppable action sounds for me reasonable, what's your reason for?
well thank's for reading-
what about con? I was used to run CON DEX prior mod 6. However, I noticed CON give me little noticeable bonus on HP in mod 6, so I started run full dex / str. So I did not even put constituition focus. anything I am missing, or you going con for the RI? also one thing I run with this build is weapon mastery, This build since allows more sprints make it possible to run weapon mastery without the trouble of not reach your target or to not evade your opponent attacks, unlikely the other traditional builds where dropping bravery highly make you a easy target for the loss of mobility and deflection. I wonder if this is something to do with your change for "high dps and lower a little bit of your mobility".
Yes my existing build is a balance between Recovery, RI for offensive, Max HP/Life Steal (140k HP / 21% LL) for defensive, with the tweak between a few Feats to balance the recovery speed vs damage output/countless scar (only running 3/5 now), and the new build is dealing about 15~20% more dmg, however only 80~90% the mobility compare the the build I initially posted) The new build is essentially the same as old build but with a little tweak in feats and enchantments only.
Personally I think I would switch my build again to get 10~15% more dmg but 90~95% as mobile as the old build, and I hope you guys have fun with the tweakings
I am not gonna explain things in detail as its too much to explain, but in short, CON is good.
Yes I made some adjustments to my build, changed from Dex to STR and also made some changes to the feats, however boons are generally still the same, its only the stats and feats that I tweaked
Elven Haste - honestly I am not sure if it makes much difference if any, however I have enough HP (14.2k) so I would rather choose something that is more offensive than defensive.
Basically I changed my build from mid dps - high mobility to high dps - mid~high mobility
Unstoppable Action - although not fully tested but judging from the feat's description I personally dont think it's gonna be that useful, cus 1. Its only effective when you are on Unstoppable. 2. Each point only gives you 5% extra AP (based on the AP you actually gained during unstoppable), which means if you gain a 10%AP during you 5 seconds unstoppable, you now gain 10.5% AP (correct me if I am wrong...) and that seems to be very underwhelming to me...) If we get additional FLAT 5% AP each point invested each time we use Unstoppable, then that would make some difference.... not sure, might test it out later
Edit: come to think about it, I probably wont bother, cus its only 1 point, I have invested 2 other points into Con bonus feats (whatever feat its called) and I would like those two points to stay there, considering AP is so easily gained with Recovery and such, I guess even if its 5% flat its probably not gonna make much diff
Hello Icedrake, wanted to telling u the i like your playStyle and the build itself, i will definitely try it out. currently i got a completely different build which works for me fine, so this is not a reason why i want to try ur's im just more than curious how it will work for me hehe, for example i actually don't use "battle fury" on fights and if i used it, is it just for running away lol,
well i'm planning to make some changes with the upcoming 2xRP,
I Notice that you also make some changes on the Live Server to this build, like ur rolls, (from Dex to STR) Did you also change some Feats and Boons?
---
got to 2 small questions,
Eleven haste ist really noticeable than 1,6k HP?
that 1Point on Heroic "Armor specialization", for me feels like a wasted point, 5% Unstoppable action sounds for me reasonable, what's your reason for?
well thank's for reading-
what about con? I was used to run CON DEX prior mod 6. However, I noticed CON give me little noticeable bonus on HP in mod 6, so I started run full dex / str. So I did not even put constituition focus. anything I am missing, or you going con for the RI? also one thing I run with this build is weapon mastery, This build since allows more sprints make it possible to run weapon mastery without the trouble of not reach your target or to not evade your opponent attacks, unlikely the other traditional builds where dropping bravery highly make you a easy target for the loss of mobility and deflection. I wonder if this is something to do with your change for "high dps and lower a little bit of your mobility".
True. I have been tweaking some too. I went back to CON, and I did feel a lot more DPS. My best bet is that the RI from CON is not affected by ArP Resistance from tenacity, which makes sense since it doesn't come from the armor pen stats. It is so hard to tweak those feats, I keep switching builds but I doesn't really feel a lot of change between those tweaks. I do feel a lot the loss of the relentless battlefury points. Specially on sweaty premades, the double sprinting has granted my team some victories for fast caps.
Relentless battlefury is just a very nice Option, facing a Team with classes like WL, CW, Hunter etc. You take BF, facing GF OP daring shout and double mark instead Being 100% more mobile and close the distance by Sprint+TR just makes the difference
After reading this build I figured I would give a try. I liked the idea of most of the damage coming from at wills and not being so dependent on landing an encounter. I have a 2.7k ilvl so going up against top guys I normally get mowed down pretty good. I have 11k Power, 9k crit and 8k AP 10% life steal, 32 base deflection, normal negation and greater vorpal with LM set. Its not exactly what Icey is running. When I first tried it I didn't like it all that much. BF, TD, and Hidden was what I started with. Changing TD to IBS was no better. From my previous build it appeared that I gave up dps and I didn't gain anymore survivability in a fight. Getting out of a fight was good, but staying in one, not so much. So I switched to restoring strike and I liked it better. For me staying alive longer is better since I can't just rush in and blow stuff up yet.
Then I started thinking if I could up my dps even more. There was some discussion in the thread on which is better battle-fury or daring shout so I decided to just use both. With Threatening rush it seemed like I could really add up the dps. I also use the Lantern of Revelation for my active artifact that lets me increase my dps by 16% for 6s along with warriors courage and Bravery.
My initial worry was not being able to land Daring shout which didn't turn out to be a problem. Rotation is Threatening Rush, Daring Shout, Battle-Fury, Hidden daggers, a few attacks then I go unstoppable and use the Lantern if available. All of my attacks are landing harder which is giving me for life stolen which is allowing me to survive longer. I have gone up against a few GWFs 3k with Fey touch and a better negation and I am winning more than loosing. Going up against a 4k GWF, I am surving for a while, 10-20, seconds which is better than the 2 seconds before. If you go this route you will want to throw in a few points executioner style. Quite happy with the results so far.
I kept CON high even in module 6-SH. I thought its DRI would not get affected by Tenacity ArP resistance and perhaps be useful in PvP. Plus every bit of HP counts for me. Since i wasn't sure i made a balanced build with everything above 20 (STR, CON, DEX).
sometimes I use daring shout, and it performs kinda of great. It really boosts my damage, but the tooltip says it boosts the damage (by reducing the target's dr) just until I get attacked. But it feels that the damage boost remains even after I am attacked. someone can confirm that?
Comments
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
Glad to hear you tested it vs him.
I'm testing stuff too to find out how to adapt my gear choice (soulforged, lathander set). Cause that's the gear i got and can't change it all each module for a new "META".
Basically: i thought the build might work better with your specific gear/ choice of stats.
Mine is quite different and i noticed this:
- with your build i'm more free, damage is still good but i use restoring strike cause i need to complement my survivability. Sadly, Lathander set+SF<<<<<<eLoL+T.Negation. Once dead, i find myself stripped of all buffs vs a fully buffed enemy. The build basically works for me up to a certain level. Vs BiS enemies i fall short of DPS (i have only 4k ArP at the moment, 12k power, 31% crit chance, cause lathander set gives recovery).
Went for CON in place of str for HP+DRI that is not affected by tenacity (i suppose, since it's not ArP). Using SF; i needed larger HP pool. So when facing BiS enemies and paladins, i couldn't really damage them.
Tried following rotation: daggers, daring shout, restoring strike. Double mark with threat rush. Damage increased dramatically, but i lost mobility. Still, the damage from DS mark seems much, much higher than what i achieve with battlefury (25% buff from numbers).
And i found out that with such rotation i can take down Paladins and eat HPs from BiS players where i couldn't do the same with BF. I think it's because mark is piercing damage, am i right?
Pro: much more damage, can DS right after resurrection--->unstoppable--->second life+i get back the buffs fast
Con: loss of BF stamina mobility and freedom/ footwork.
Wanted to see if a BF+double mark combo would still make damage high enough. BF should compensate for the loss of either IBS-RS. I'm doubtful...RS gives me stamina+burst+healing...
So my doubt now is that my gear doesn't fit the build right now. But, DS+executioner's style might buff SS enough to compensate for the loss of RS? While giving me the "advantage" of the double mark and DS determination gain after Lathander's resurrection. I'm not sure...
So basically so far it seems like my gear and lack of higher offensive stats forces me to use daring shout. Doubt is how might work if i give up RS for BF, grab a couple of points from CS and place them on executioner, and deal damage though superbuffed sure strike.
Cause, also, it's not just about "stacking" countless scars in a fight: when i "resurrect", countless scars buff is lost, while, if the enemy is (probably) low HP, my executioner's style buff is active.
So switching points might be even more valuable for me.
will keep testing.
1. Negation + Feytouch is necessary to mitigate your opponent's dmg, debuffing his dmg while buffing yours, keeps you alive A LOT better than Soulforge, without the "tankibility", you are already disadvantaged.
2. You will always need a damaging encounter, be it Takedown or IBS, Darling Shout is only good debuffing a group of enemies in a big scale fight for your teammate, without a damaging encounter that makes it hard for you to give 'bursts'.
3. Forget about RS, its quickier but it does not deal enough damage. You should relay on Life Steal+Endless Consumption to regain your HP, and Battlefury to regain your stamina. Takedown for consistent push or IBS for heavy burst combos is the way to go, in high level fight even if your enemy only has 10%life left, he could make a fast comback with water wheel+life steals, and RS could just give them the chance for that while IBS would finish them off straight.
4. Darling Shout is good if you can hit your opponent, I have played with Ayroux and Tyrion in many fights, while Darling Shout could debuff me, they often have trouble catching up with me to deal the deadly blows, and if they miss their darling shout, then they are easy target for another 15 seconds. Considering the range of darling shout and the diversity, its not a very ideal choice unless you are in a big scale fight being able to effectively debuff a lot of your enemies for your team.
I may post a few videos about how this build performs against BiS players if I have the chance later...
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
2) Daring Shout can really be excellent. The pros and cons are Battle Fury gives stamina regen for utility while Daring Shout gives more damage and gives allies more damage and gives you a really nice DR boost...
3) Im still a big fan of IBS. Usually in PVP its burst damage that kills players, with things like Elven the impact of Takedown is nullified quite a bit... Thats just me. Also I like being able to smack players for 60-80k hits with IBS
4) Im looking forward to playing you more Icy. Last time we fought I had 300 ping and realized after we played I had messed up feats. I for some reason had Deep gash and no Unfetted Strikes - which gave you perma uptime on Negation + Countless and my run speed was up to 20% lower.... So well see.
I definitely am coming around to the idea of Battle Fury though. Overall the utility it offers is better than Daring Shout. I think the trick is going to be finding that sweet balance between Countless Scars/Exec Style/Relentless.
I think they all warrant some points maybe a 3/3/4 or something. I did notice the first 3 points of Relentless dropped the CD by 1 second per point. The 4 and 5th had a decreasing return.... Countless Scars - youll almost never have 15 stacks up and if you do it means your getting pounded by 2+ players so an added 3%-6% may not really help in the long run. Maybe 4/2/4 makes more sense IDk.... In order to even get 12 stacks of countless you have to get hit every second 2x per second... Most of the time I would bet youll have <10 stacks. So I could see a 3/3/4 being optimal....
On top missing your opponent it recharges in zero second
My GWF 2.3 k crit up to very respectable numbers on soft targets
So all in all TD is not that bad as most ppl think, probably never tested themself?
IBS is so slow has a long CD and no CC
- Being able to always sprint right next to them instead of being kited.
- More stamina/sprint allowing higher chance of cancelling CC attacks
- Fast movements allowing us to effectively close the gap and interrupt their rotations
- Battlefury's damage buff is always effective on you unlike Darling Shout that requires a close range and a long cooldown. (I believe Battlefury's effectiveness is 8 seconds, my battlefury's cooldown is about 10 seconds, which means I can almost always benefit from the damage buff and the free stamina refill)
- More stamina also means you will be able to utilise attack patterns that requires more movement (which I have demostrated to Tyrion) this is a noticible tactical advantage.
I believe Darling Shout debuffs your target's defence by approximately 30%, while Battlefury buffs up your damage by approximately 25%, so if we are talking about just the damaging bit, it will be a question about how much Damage resist your target has and how much DPS you can output. In my experience, Darling Shout generally wins on the damaging department.
However, as a matter of fact, Darling Shout does not always hit, and requires close distance, when it misses its a waste of 15 seconds cooldown, whereas Battlefury offers more mobility and the buff is always effective on the user, making it a more reliable encounter overall.
As to using IBS or TD, I personally believe IBS is more effective against GWF while Takedown is better against most other classes (this depends on their builds and fighting style), and this is what I have learnt from my personal experience.
- Damage wise
IBS is about 11 seconds cooldown for me, TD is about 5.6 second, which means with the same amount of time, I can either cast 2 TD or 1 IBS, the result of the total damage from the encounters itself is pretty similar, however TD's cooldown resets instantly if missed (with feats) plus it also offers 1~2 seconds CC effect (or 2~4 seconds with 2 TDs) which allows you to throw in a few more Sure Strike, Hidden Dagger or combo with daily more reliably, the total added up damage is generally more than an IBS.
- TD as a "damaging" CC can be casted every 5.5~6 seconds, which allows you to consistently pressure your target making it a noticible tactical advantage, if your TD hits, it stuns the target for 1~2 seconds, which means it only allows your target to move for another 4 seconds before they have to be ready to avoid another attack, this could effectively interrupts your target's rotations.
There are however EXCEPTION, and this is why IBS could sometimes be more effective in some cases.
- If your daily can frequently hit the target and dealing 50% for HP or so, then an IBS could be the finisher straight. (All you need to do is to bring down their HP to ~70%, then one daily + IBS to finish up)
- Opponents like GWF has Unstoppable which gains temp HP and nullifies CC effect, using TD effectively helps them build up determination which means they can go unstoppable more often gaining a lot of temp HP and possibly self-heals from feats, however an IBS while giving them more determination, would only allow them to go unstoppable one time (although it might be longer) but they would have less self-heal and less temp-hp overall, making IBS a more ideal choice against GWFs.
So in conclusion, both TD and IBS are good choices, it depends on the opponent you are facing. I do however agree that finding the 'sweet spot' between Exectioner's Style, Rentless Battlefury and Countless Scars might further fine tune this build (thanks for the input @Pando83 and Ayroux!)
As a side note, Battlefury offers distinctive advantage when you do premade in DOM you could
- Switch node to assist faster than any other class (we all know fast and correct switching is often the key of winning premade fights)
- Making some tactics possible, such as sprinting to the middle of two nodes for a quick heal then sprinting back to your node to continue the fight (takes like 5 second, and your node wont be capped that fast) this way your DC wont have to travel too far and can heal the whole team from different nodes more effectively.
- Double sprint to reach a node faster could sometimes make the difference of capping a node or losing a node, and the chance is you would still have stamina left for the incoming fight once you reached the node instead of being CCed upon arrival.
PS: Has anyone tested if you gain 2 stacks of Countless Scar from each hit if opponent uses a FeyTouch/PF/Terror type of enchantment that grants a bonus hit? If it does, then Countless Scar could still be worth 4~5 points...
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
I know what i should do to compete at higher levels. But. That means i must use what everyone else uses, the BiS stuff every competitive PvPer must use. I just can't do that. I know it means i'll never be competitive vs BiS players unless the devs actually balance stuff, but i doubt they'll ever do that.
Thing is, given that i just refuse to use blatantly overpowered items (while i understand why the ones competing at the top are basically forced to use them), what i'm trying to do is push the efficiency of something else, which in this case is finding sinergies between Soulforged+Lathander set and powers. I might, probably, soon go for T.Fey, but basically just because even if it's one of the "overpowered trinity" items, i just need that specific enchant effect. Pretty sure they will "fix it" the day i get it however given my "luck" XD.
Once i get wheel to mythic (tried your HD trick but i still don't get the buff often -_-' disappointing. I'm not under "wheel depression", so i should get the buff. Shoot the artifact but...nothing happens.) and T.Fey, i'll rethink the use of RS, but right now what i basically do is compensate a bit the loss of stamina from BF with the stamina gain from RS, while boosting my damage with BF mark that allows me to partially overcome the lack of enough ArP and T.Fey. If i use IBS without BF, i might end up short in stamina (i also have only rank 7 darks in utility and no stamina power up on jewelry).
My aim is to basically raise my HP, get LS to 20%, mythic wheel healing with 1 min cooldown, T.SF for 3s CC immunity, raise ArP with SH boon high enough, then rethink the build. T.SF cc immunity is important to me cause that way i can shoot wheel and get the buff without getting CCed and interrupted--->killed right away.
Yeah i figured out that giving up 1 burst encounter won't work. Thanks for the insight on the matter. I think once i get T.Fey and ArP i might switch back to BF and IBS. But right now mark doubled from DS is the only thing that lets me "get through" the defenses of BiS players, where with BF i got the feeling that my stats and enchant didn't allow me to deal enough damage to even scratch them.
I also proposed in the feedback section a way to make Lathander set work without forcing players to go for SF.
I like mobility and footwork from your build more, but as you said, T.Fey and T.Neg are key, and i don't use them both. Will never use them both most likely, hoping for a re-balance of the enchants. What i could consistently do with the build was avoid kiting from other classes and vs GWFs beating them making them unable to land their big hits, as you said, trying to kite their unstoppable to slow down their stacks build-up. I liked that more than a "stationary" build.
Question: powerful challenge, does the feat double buff you if you double mark? Cause the increase in damage with double mark is really high.
Links added to the bottom of first post.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
(There is an epic 18 minutes fight...!)
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
And thx for sharing builds like this because it prevents lots of player to post same questions several times
Would be good to implement a sticky or subsection for actual builds in this forum in general
Videos prove that mobility for GWF is very important.
I learned it watching Ayroux GWFvsGWF video during module 2 i believe. And then tried to make it count the most in my fights. Footwork is important but it's for skilled players. It was a pleasure to watch you and ayroux kiting each others, hit and "dodge" until one of the two landed the critical combo.
That video actually shows how skilled GWFs play.
Most GWFs i met in PvP in these 2+ years barely move and their gameplay is brainless, they expect other GWFs to facetank. When you kite them, they insult you saying you "run like a HAMSTER", when instead it's actually that they are too lazy and unskilled to make good use of sprint with some good footwork at the right moment.
Thanks for sharing and posting.
Hope more GWFs watch the videos and learn how to properly play a GWF with skills, and what's the difference between skillful GWFs and brainless GWFs in PvP.
The first video is a pleasure to watch, i'd love to see you and ayroux vs Sobek, which is said to be (and looks like from his videos) one of the most skilled BiS players in the game.
As a matter of fact Blackyluke complained just exactly the same thing, so I agreed to fight him in melee range within Hidden Dagger's range (node size) and the result was I beaten him 4 times in a row in melee. (As you can see, one of the videos is done in melee range) This proves, this build can excel even in melee combat range, not just a kiter, but with kiter tactics, its even stronger
Ayroux was not using battlefury until he fought me a week or so ago, as per his previous post, he then see the potential in Battlefury and is now enjoying the speedy fighting style, its great to have him, a very wellknown an experienced GWF recognizing this build
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
The thing I will say is that overall this build has less "max' damage output however has more utility. The ability to sprint more is crucial for PVP and while Daring Shout does spit out more damage (about 7.3% more from ACT testing) you have to land the shout to mark, and then lose the mobility with Battle Fury where as Battle Fury can be cast away from the target to close the gap and then not require you to spend ~2 seconds of animation time casting daring shout while NEAR the target.
Ive been testing Battle Fury and its definitely fun and worth trying. Still trying to find the "sweet spot" though because it sucks you have yo give up Exec Style and I have yet to test versus classes like CW and HR... Also I am curious to test on a PVP node, I have a suspicion the difference between the two (DS and BF) will be very small on a fight over a PVP node... But considering all I do is get PUGs when I Q it makes ANY build feel like its OP (ROFL).
I think that being aknowledged by and old time GWF BiS player like ayroux is a sign this build is indeed a very effective and good build. Plus it's original.
I thought of this, don't know if it's better or not...
4/5 countless scars (12% DR, faster to stack. If an enemy kites you for 6 seconds you have to rebuild all stacks, so 3% DR loss on a Neg user shouldn't change much)
4/5 focused destroyer: hard to stack in PvP, stacks last for a small amount of time, less reliable than executioner's style that is a solid help to finish off the enemy fast. With 4 points however, you lose only 2,1% DPS at 3 stacks and 5% chance, keeping a solid 20% chance and a 33,3% damage buff. 3/5 with 15% chance is another option but losing more DPS and 15% chance is a bit low may be.
so
3/5 focused destroyer might be another option
4/5 relentless battle fury: yeah i know the build is based around BF, but basically you lose 0.5s duration and like 1.6s cooldown reduction which might be inside the "delay" you may have using it (during a fight, you might not use exactly as soon as the cooldown is over if you're busy dodging or fighting)
3/5 Executioner's style: 18% buff on sure strike and IBS, solid, you can finish fights faster with SS and a well placed IBS, which can:
- help more than 3% DR from countless scars
- help more than the last point in Focused destroyer which in PvP is less reliable due to stacks lasting not enough
- be worth it to just give up a little bit of relentless BF ( 1 point), which might not be that noticeable if you have good enough recovery.
18% damage buff+25% from BF = 43% total buff on SS and on an IBS finisher once your enemy is at lower HP isn't bad right?
What do you think?
1. Both GWFS are whacking face to face even in unstoppable mode (Like said above, the chance is slim vs smart GWFs)
2. Dealing IBS after daily, sometimes it hits very hard (70~80k with just IBS), sometimes it doesn't (15~20k), I am still wondering if its because I land IBS too late and they were already standing causing the IBS to 'deflect' or if its something else...
So far I feel this feat could be useful against OP/GF the less mobile targets, however its still a challenge trying to take down OP or not getting 2 shotted by BiS GFs, which means its hard to really get the full potential of this feat, I need to do more test to find out if there is a way to make it more useful in practical fights.
Other notes
Reducing 2 points in Rentless Battlefury has been a noticible delay in sprint tactic and makes it harder to get the full potential of Takedown.
Reducing 2 points in Countless Scar seem to make no difference in pug fights, but is noticibly taking more dmg while fighting with Lancer yesterday, there was no more 5 minutes fight.
Reducing 1 point in Destoyer's Purpose seem to make little difference.
My experience with the new tweak in 5/5 Exectuioner Style is, it has potential to deal more damage, only if you can consistently spike your target's HP and consideringly high level fight is often touch-based bursts + consistent normal attacks, that makes Executioner Style less useful, but it will be useful against average players that fights you face to face, but you can probably beat them with or without footwork anyway, so it really only makes little difference.
Will do more tests and give more updates later....
here. Just, you know...as a reminder.
I think that being aknowledged by and old time GWF BiS player like ayroux is a sign this build is indeed a very effective and good build. Plus it's original.
I thought of this, don't know if it's better or not...
4/5 countless scars (12% DR, faster to stack. If an enemy kites you for 6 seconds you have to rebuild all stacks, so 3% DR loss on a Neg user shouldn't change much)
4/5 focused destroyer: hard to stack in PvP, stacks last for a small amount of time, less reliable than executioner's style that is a solid help to finish off the enemy fast. With 4 points however, you lose only 2,1% DPS at 3 stacks and 5% chance, keeping a solid 20% chance and a 33,3% damage buff. 3/5 with 15% chance is another option but losing more DPS and 15% chance is a bit low may be.
so
3/5 focused destroyer might be another option
4/5 relentless battle fury: yeah i know the build is based around BF, but basically you lose 0.5s duration and like 1.6s cooldown reduction which might be inside the "delay" you may have using it (during a fight, you might not use exactly as soon as the cooldown is over if you're busy dodging or fighting)
3/5 Executioner's style: 18% buff on sure strike and IBS, solid, you can finish fights faster with SS and a well placed IBS, which can:
- help more than 3% DR from countless scars
- help more than the last point in Focused destroyer which in PvP is less reliable due to stacks lasting not enough
- be worth it to just give up a little bit of relentless BF ( 1 point), which might not be that noticeable if you have good enough recovery.
18% damage buff+25% from BF = 43% total buff on SS and on an IBS finisher once your enemy is at lower HP isn't bad right?
What do you think?
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
defense = dark and savage, balance out the life steal % and max HP for bursts
utility = dark, for run speed
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
So basically in real fights with good opponents who dodge and move around, expecially at high levels exec style gets less
chances to shine. Didn't consider that. New hp/LS boons from sh, when maxed, might give it even less chances to shine.
Expecially considering that the buff on a ibs finisher in a SS-daily-ibs combo might be overkill (hitting a low hp enemy for 80k or 50k makes little difference be still dies), and as you described GFs can burst faster and OP is still hard to take down.
So i guess it's clearly bad taking away points from scars and relentless Bf. Might be a bit more viable to balance out with focused destroyer but not sure.
Thanks again for testing it and sharing!
One thing, I have been running different boons and enchantments. I am not using recovery at all. honestly, I think recovery is a waste of stats, but that is my opinion, I think it works different for different people. I do however oppose the talk that we lose DPS with this build. Somehow I feel a lot more deadly running this combo than the previous combo with IBS, BF, DARING SHOUT, FS, etc and executioner's style. I haven't missed executioner's style AT ALL. I feel my HD have been hitting really hard, takedown damage has been decent, and I have done up to 70k damage with it on PvP.
I have dueled some of the best GWFs of the game running best in slot (ranks 12s, full mystic artifacts, wheels, etc, and legendaries, trans fey, trans negation). And in a particular time I was fighting probably the top one on xbox and I was able to put him really really low. He could not touch me much but he ended up beating me in the end. I couldn't compete against a mystic wheels considering mine was blue at the time (still purple now) And I am running rank 7s, nothing mystic, only my weapon is legendary at the moment.
I think people who said the DPS of this build is lacking or that you need IBS to finish opponents are understimating the build. Personally, I think the build has more potential to work better with Darks or Azures on offense slots instead. But that is my opinion. I was kinda wanting to try to hide this build once I figured this out, but then I saw your post and I was like... dam...:(
DENIAL
As to the question about recovery, I guess its very dependent on your play style, for me, I love to be sprinting nonstop and being able to run in and out from fights, and recovery makes this a lot easier (it mostly helps on 1. Being able to benefit from BF almost all the time 2. More Threatening Rush to help you rush in and out on 'fast-contact' attacks 3. More Hidden Daggers to throw to ensure you always get buffs from HD's damage bonus' and obviously deal more dmg more consistently', the down side is, it would not produce as much BURST damage compare to using Executioner's Style when all buffs are present, however more consistent damage could bring the overall damage very close/similar except it also gives you more flexibility and more control over the field with more sprints/threatening rush/HD.
IMO, 4000~5000 Recovery is enough, the rest is good for azure or dark as you prefer, thanks for sharing your experience using a similar build, but yes, this build can be further tweaked to be played more offensively or defensively depending on how your build your char. In fact I have also previously posted some videos about how this build can go toe to toe in melee range with melee focused BiS GWFs and beat them just as good, unfortunately these videos were removed by the mod on the user's request.
I have in fact tweaked my build 3 more times after I originally posted this build and is now using a even deadlier build. I have had a few encounters 1 shotting some near BiS DCs with either 1 daily or just 1 IBS (dealing about 100~130k just the daily or IBS alone), but I will leave the experiments to you guys
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
Hello Icedrake, wanted to telling u the i like your playStyle and the build itself, i will definitely try it out.
currently i got a completely different build which works for me fine, so this is not a reason
why i want to try ur's im just more than curious how it will work for me hehe,
for example i actually don't use "battle fury" on fights and if i used it,
is it just for running away lol,
well i'm planning to make some changes with the upcoming 2xRP,
I Notice that you also make some changes on the Live Server to this build, like ur rolls, (from Dex to STR)
Did you also change some Feats and Boons?
---
got to 2 small questions,
Eleven haste ist really noticeable than 1,6k HP?
that 1Point on Heroic "Armor specialization", for me feels like a wasted point,
5% Unstoppable action sounds for me reasonable, what's your reason for?
well thank's for reading-
Elven Haste - honestly I am not sure if it makes much difference if any, however I have enough HP (14.2k) so I would rather choose something that is more offensive than defensive.
Basically I changed my build from mid dps - high mobility to high dps - mid~high mobility
Unstoppable Action - although not fully tested but judging from the feat's description I personally dont think it's gonna be that useful, cus
1. Its only effective when you are on Unstoppable.
2. Each point only gives you 5% extra AP (based on the AP you actually gained during unstoppable), which means if you gain a 10%AP during you 5 seconds unstoppable, you now gain 10.5% AP (correct me if I am wrong...) and that seems to be very underwhelming to me...) If we get additional FLAT 5% AP each point invested each time we use Unstoppable, then that would make some difference.... not sure, might test it out later
Edit: come to think about it, I probably wont bother, cus its only 1 point, I have invested 2 other points into Con bonus feats (whatever feat its called) and I would like those two points to stay there, considering AP is so easily gained with Recovery and such, I guess even if its 5% flat its probably not gonna make much diff
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
anything I am missing, or you going con for the RI?
also one thing I run with this build is weapon mastery, This build since allows more sprints make it possible to run weapon mastery without the trouble of not reach your target or to not evade your opponent attacks, unlikely the other traditional builds where dropping bravery highly make you a easy target for the loss of mobility and deflection.
I wonder if this is something to do with your change for "high dps and lower a little bit of your mobility".
DENIAL
Personally I think I would switch my build again to get 10~15% more dmg but 90~95% as mobile as the old build, and I hope you guys have fun with the tweakings
I am not gonna explain things in detail as its too much to explain, but in short, CON is good.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
It is so hard to tweak those feats, I keep switching builds but I doesn't really feel a lot of change between those tweaks. I do feel a lot the loss of the relentless battlefury points. Specially on sweaty premades, the double sprinting has granted my team some victories for fast caps.
DENIAL
Being 100% more mobile and close the distance by Sprint+TR just makes the difference
Then I started thinking if I could up my dps even more. There was some discussion in the thread on which is better battle-fury or daring shout so I decided to just use both. With Threatening rush it seemed like I could really add up the dps. I also use the Lantern of Revelation for my active artifact that lets me increase my dps by 16% for 6s along with warriors courage and Bravery.
My initial worry was not being able to land Daring shout which didn't turn out to be a problem. Rotation is Threatening Rush, Daring Shout, Battle-Fury, Hidden daggers, a few attacks then I go unstoppable and use the Lantern if available. All of my attacks are landing harder which is giving me for life stolen which is allowing me to survive longer. I have gone up against a few GWFs 3k with Fey touch and a better negation and I am winning more than loosing. Going up against a 4k GWF, I am surving for a while, 10-20, seconds which is better than the 2 seconds before. If you go this route you will want to throw in a few points executioner style. Quite happy with the results so far.
Mukluk
DENIAL