Stacking piercing damage like you say can be quite tricky, and honestly, building those stacks up or down from 10 or 100% just tells me whether to hit SE right now or later. There is nothing preventing a TR from timing the hardest hitting power when piercing is at 100%. And there will still be 100K SEs, and there will still be crying.
What I propose is to make piercing physical damage with a twist. As physical damage, it will be affected by tenacity DR, base DR, buff DR and enchantments. Around 50-80% nerf. Isn't that what everybody was asking in the first place? We can say we want it gone all we want, but if the devs disagree, it is there to stay.
But to render piercing that way is to defy the meaning and logic of "piercing" for all intents and purposes. If it's piercing, then it's supposed to pierce something.
Take, EAS, it makes a perfect example;
3 stacks Empowered AS absorbs 9% of max HP per hit. It grants 40% damage resistance.
SO Piercing damage (1500 damage) x (ignores DR) - Damage absorbed = 0 damage
SO Piercing damage (1500 damage) x ( 1 - 0.4 Tenacity DR) x ( 1 - 0.1 base DR ) x ( 1 - 0.4 AS DR) - (ignore damage absorb) = 486 damage
100K SE ( ignores DR ) - Damage absorbed = 90K
100K SE x ( 1 - 0.4 Tenacity DR) x ( 1 - 0.1 base DR ) x ( 1 - 0.4 AS DR) - (ignore damage absorb) = 32,400
I've always supported my statements with careful study, and when I say it feels better, it often does. It's not an argument whether some shields or absorbs already have a counter or not. It's about getting something useful out of a "piercing nerf" in the name of balance.
If all you want is to take something away and leave all of my problems intact, then you are not after balance, you just want open-hunting season on all TRs. You certainly have some pent-up revenge issues going on.
I also gave 0 fks and moved on to another game. If they don't respect their players and won't fix things like piercing damage that the whole playerbase has been against since mod 4, then there's no point in wasting my time and money here.
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
Would be a nice buff if Sprint can has the Dodge effect :>
New boons are huge indirect nerf to TR. 16% crit dmg reduction (TR have 100% crit chance in stealth0, 32k? HP boost and Stamina drains so TR cant dodge anymore.
There's no way you can get 1 shoted by SE once you get these, because EHP bonus is a lot higher than dmg bonus.
Actually, there is only 2 classes who are directly in danger against SE
Sw and gwf ( the other class can dodge it or mitigate damage, it's not that hard unless for deaf...)
Gwf could but only with some luck and unstoppable, which will happen 1/100(0)
Sw got poor basic defense, so even if there was not piercing damage, they would take almost same amount of damage
Gwf are indeed directly impacted against that skill ( but, correct me if i'm wrong, there is not much skill from any class that can easy kill a gwf without allowing them to escape)
So, i think that instead of remove piercing damage they should reduce some things :
- direct damage ( like they did for DJ's paladin )
- remove the additional bonus that allow a tr to use a second Se if they hited a target with low hp
And in front of that, dc's sigil is a real problem for it ( like for paladin, and anyway, this artifact is a real problem for many reason.) ), it just allows tr to spam daily
Actually, there is only 2 classes who are directly in danger against SE
Sw and gwf ( the other class can dodge it or mitigate damage, it's not that hard unless for deaf...)
Gwf could but only with some luck and unstoppable, which will happen 1/100(0)
Sw got poor basic defense, so even if there was not piercing damage, they would take almost same amount of damage
Gwf are indeed directly impacted against that skill ( but, correct me if i'm wrong, there is not much skill from any class that can easy kill a gwf without allowing them to escape)
So, i think that instead of remove piercing damage they should reduce some things :
- direct damage ( like they did for DJ's paladin )
- remove the additional bonus that allow a tr to use a second Se if they hited a target with low hp
And in front of that, dc's sigil is a real problem for it ( like for paladin, and anyway, this artifact is a real problem for many reason.) ), it just allows tr to spam daily
This is entirely untrue, it is a danger to everyone minus perhaps unkillable DCs and OPs.
The classes that can dodge it is certainly easier on, but any TR that can count can simply time his SE for when dodging is not an option.
GF and OP also have no dodge, they both have block but block is runs out and while it is active they can do literally nothing they are not a threat. The OP are unkillable but soon as they nerf their godhood if would be a massive problem for them as well. The real problem is in team matches when suddenly CC is everywhere and its easy for a TR to get behind you in the case of a GF so guard is worthless at that point. Or with a TR that is suing bilethorn and which slows your movement to basically nothing so again your guard is worthless.
The fact is massive attacks which ignore DR and long duration CC like extended daze needs to be removed from PVP.
And I'm posting on here again. I hate myself. Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag is partly to blame because I can't even do a single quest without rubberbanding, so I'm stuck here reading the bickering on the forums. So yeah, let me join the bickering.
The most pressing imbalance with Shocking Execution (coming from an experienced TR who played all possible TR builds out there since BETA, sabo, SE, WK builds no exception) is that...
It's too easy. I'm going to cover two points to describe that.
Point 1;
There are currently only three powers (or combo if you will) that rivals the damage we can do; the IBS, the GF combo, Ice Knife. Damage-wise if we compare it post-mitigation, factoring buffs and debuffs, those are the only skills that's possible to set up to hit as hard as a "normal" Shocking Execution. I say normal, not the First Strike 130K SE one.
However, IBS, for example, takes 4635713464513245 stacks of various buffs to set up. Bull Charge/Anvil of Doom takes a bit of min-maxing and good timing. Ice Knife, well, you won't have trouble finding a CW who would tell you that landing a good Ice Knife isn't easy.
Shocking Execution does 50K on average, with just a press of a button, top it off with the DC artifact and you have another shot. Soulforged? Doesn't matter, daily again.
Point 2; Factoring skill
We can all agree that pressing one button takes no skill. It doesn't mean you're dumb. You could be smart. You could be the best TR player on the server. Introduce a simple math;
Every troll-brained idiot says (by default) that you can't be a skilled player if you are MI/TR using SE. Prove you wrong. You're welcome.
[*] Animation cancel SE by dodging. Built properly, your TR can outdodge any other class and time the hit just as they are out of stamina. It doesn't matter if you are a SW without a real dodge or an HR.
[*] "Exploit" the first strike bug, where if you swap First Strike in and out before entering combat, you still have its bonus active.
[*] Or do it the non exploitative way: Reset First Strike. Daily up > Stealth > disengage combat briefly to re-contest the node as soon as HD debuff drops > Shocking Execution ... SigDiv > repeat.
Not every TR can do all of the above, but if you're faced with one that can, it becomes an entirely different playing field where TR=God, You=Worm.
On a final note, one of the best counters to SE is a permadodge Elven build of any class (besides SW and GWF).
Since nothing but prone works on them, any assortment of classes that does not have PvP prones (even with some prones, unless you have enough of them to chain) and it basically comes down to the shielding technique of the GF. If he turns correctly and fast enough, nothing brings the shield down. He's not CCd. His stamina also comes back a lot faster.
So if he manages a perfect turn/facing every time, then you could have 3~4 people on him and still get washed out.
...backpedal to force enemies in fron of your frontal 180d - turn and block, turn and block, wait for recharge of major powers - go into combo, one guy down -- rinse and repeat until all those 3~4 dead.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
SE outgoing DMG is way too high,
it's not a QQ or hating whatever, this is a simple TRUE!
GO on PvP and see by your own, if you think i'm wrong,
I'm calling for a fairly balanced that's all.
There's no other daily which is doing that high mount on DMG like SE.
100-80k HP FOR for a single SE. seriously it crazy. (mainly because of Piercing dmg + MAX crit)
I don't see, what kind of gameplay is this?,
when u just need 1 daily to Win...
how it works: (mostly)
1. TR comes in stealth and use the ES daily immediately, so you lost over -80% HP been Lucky of not 1-Shot or higher,
than cloud spam and you're dead, that's it .
is this how TR supposed to be?
So basically,
Tr just need SE + CoS nothing else to kill enemies.
(Mostly SE alone is more than enough to kill enemies)
(CoS the same around 12k DMG for a single knife., of course CoS its just to be sure that you're
enemy is definitely dead,)
---
I told on other threads,
If the Devs won't nothing change and let the TR Stay with All the FREE dmg, than give us a new "Stat" which "Resist Pierding dmg"
So TR can keep his piercing and we have a "Possibility to Defend us",
and not being.. just a FREE target.
<::::::[]==0 GwF 0==[]::::::> ● Still waiting for the promised Improvement ● xgrandz02
Comments
What I propose is to make piercing physical damage with a twist. As physical damage, it will be affected by tenacity DR, base DR, buff DR and enchantments. Around 50-80% nerf. Isn't that what everybody was asking in the first place? We can say we want it gone all we want, but if the devs disagree, it is there to stay.
But to render piercing that way is to defy the meaning and logic of "piercing" for all intents and purposes. If it's piercing, then it's supposed to pierce something.
Take, EAS, it makes a perfect example;
I've always supported my statements with careful study, and when I say it feels better, it often does. It's not an argument whether some shields or absorbs already have a counter or not. It's about getting something useful out of a "piercing nerf" in the name of balance.
If all you want is to take something away and leave all of my problems intact, then you are not after balance, you just want open-hunting season on all TRs. You certainly have some pent-up revenge issues going on.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
actually u r right, it was AD&D but I forgot which edition I played. Back then there was no Tiamat, she was called Dark Tahkesis
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
There's no way you can get 1 shoted by SE once you get these, because EHP bonus is a lot higher than dmg bonus.
Actually, there is only 2 classes who are directly in danger against SE
Sw and gwf ( the other class can dodge it or mitigate damage, it's not that hard unless for deaf...)
Gwf could but only with some luck and unstoppable, which will happen 1/100(0)
Sw got poor basic defense, so even if there was not piercing damage, they would take almost same amount of damage
Gwf are indeed directly impacted against that skill ( but, correct me if i'm wrong, there is not much skill from any class that can easy kill a gwf without allowing them to escape)
So, i think that instead of remove piercing damage they should reduce some things :
- direct damage ( like they did for DJ's paladin )
- remove the additional bonus that allow a tr to use a second Se if they hited a target with low hp
And in front of that, dc's sigil is a real problem for it ( like for paladin, and anyway, this artifact is a real problem for many reason.) ), it just allows tr to spam daily
This is entirely untrue, it is a danger to everyone minus perhaps unkillable DCs and OPs.
The classes that can dodge it is certainly easier on, but any TR that can count can simply time his SE for when dodging is not an option.
GF and OP also have no dodge, they both have block but block is runs out and while it is active they can do literally nothing they are not a threat. The OP are unkillable but soon as they nerf their godhood if would be a massive problem for them as well. The real problem is in team matches when suddenly CC is everywhere and its easy for a TR to get behind you in the case of a GF so guard is worthless at that point. Or with a TR that is suing bilethorn and which slows your movement to basically nothing so again your guard is worthless.
The fact is massive attacks which ignore DR and long duration CC like extended daze needs to be removed from PVP.
The most pressing imbalance with Shocking Execution (coming from an experienced TR who played all possible TR builds out there since BETA, sabo, SE, WK builds no exception) is that...
It's too easy. I'm going to cover two points to describe that.
Point 1;
There are currently only three powers (or combo if you will) that rivals the damage we can do; the IBS, the GF combo, Ice Knife. Damage-wise if we compare it post-mitigation, factoring buffs and debuffs, those are the only skills that's possible to set up to hit as hard as a "normal" Shocking Execution. I say normal, not the First Strike 130K SE one.
However, IBS, for example, takes 4635713464513245 stacks of various buffs to set up. Bull Charge/Anvil of Doom takes a bit of min-maxing and good timing. Ice Knife, well, you won't have trouble finding a CW who would tell you that landing a good Ice Knife isn't easy.
Shocking Execution does 50K on average, with just a press of a button, top it off with the DC artifact and you have another shot. Soulforged? Doesn't matter, daily again.
Point 2; Factoring skill
We can all agree that pressing one button takes no skill. It doesn't mean you're dumb. You could be smart. You could be the best TR player on the server. Introduce a simple math;
Shocking Execution = overpowered
Shocking Execution + Skilled Player = nuclear
Every troll-brained idiot says (by default) that you can't be a skilled player if you are MI/TR using SE. Prove you wrong. You're welcome.
[*] Animation cancel SE by dodging. Built properly, your TR can outdodge any other class and time the hit just as they are out of stamina. It doesn't matter if you are a SW without a real dodge or an HR.
[*] "Exploit" the first strike bug, where if you swap First Strike in and out before entering combat, you still have its bonus active.
[*] Or do it the non exploitative way: Reset First Strike. Daily up > Stealth > disengage combat briefly to re-contest the node as soon as HD debuff drops > Shocking Execution ... SigDiv > repeat.
Not every TR can do all of the above, but if you're faced with one that can, it becomes an entirely different playing field where TR=God, You=Worm.
On a final note, one of the best counters to SE is a permadodge Elven build of any class (besides SW and GWF).
/end_of_bickering
SW and GWF are not the only classes without dodge lol
Ooh Ive yet to see an Elven wearing GF. :O
I've seen some.
Since nothing but prone works on them, any assortment of classes that does not have PvP prones (even with some prones, unless you have enough of them to chain) and it basically comes down to the shielding technique of the GF. If he turns correctly and fast enough, nothing brings the shield down. He's not CCd. His stamina also comes back a lot faster.
So if he manages a perfect turn/facing every time, then you could have 3~4 people on him and still get washed out.
...backpedal to force enemies in fron of your frontal 180d - turn and block, turn and block, wait for recharge of major powers - go into combo, one guy down -- rinse and repeat until all those 3~4 dead.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
SE outgoing DMG is way too high,
it's not a QQ or hating whatever, this is a simple TRUE!
GO on PvP and see by your own, if you think i'm wrong,
I'm calling for a fairly balanced that's all.
There's no other daily which is doing that high mount on DMG like SE.
100-80k HP FOR for a single SE. seriously it crazy. (mainly because of Piercing dmg + MAX crit)
I don't see, what kind of gameplay is this?,
when u just need 1 daily to Win...
how it works: (mostly)
1. TR comes in stealth and use the ES daily immediately, so you lost over -80% HP been Lucky of not 1-Shot or higher,
than cloud spam and you're dead, that's it .
is this how TR supposed to be?
So basically,
Tr just need SE + CoS nothing else to kill enemies.
(Mostly SE alone is more than enough to kill enemies)
(CoS the same around 12k DMG for a single knife., of course CoS its just to be sure that you're
enemy is definitely dead,)
---
I told on other threads,
If the Devs won't nothing change and let the TR Stay with All the FREE dmg,
than give us a new "Stat" which "Resist Pierding dmg"
So TR can keep his piercing and we have a "Possibility to Defend us",
and not being.. just a FREE target.