I do not understand how such a strong character like the Rogue can exist in a game like this. The class is invisible to and after attacks still remains invisible. Play this game a little less than a month and all PVP I lose ugly to rogue. For me can not afford to play PVP why Whenever there is a rogue I already know I'll lose. The equipment need not be very strong, but the rogue has a lot more advantages in pvp than other classes.
I do not understand how such a strong character like the Rogue can exist in a game like this. The class is invisible to and after attacks still remains invisible. Play this game a little less than a month and all PVP I lose ugly to rogue. For me can not afford to play PVP why Whenever there is a rogue I already know I'll lose. The equipment need not be very strong, but the rogue has a lot more advantages in pvp than other classes.
That sucks for the game !!
Have you ever considered the possibility hoiw it'd be frustrating for the other guy if his class was so weak as to be defeated by someone who has played this game for a little less than a month?
How can you be sure that the reason you lose is not because you are inexperienced and bad? You said yourself you've played the game less than a month. Do you expect to be able to defeat other people with that kind of experience?
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The most pressing imbalance with Shocking Execution is that...
First Strike works with it. That's all that really needs a fix, make it so First Strike doesn't work with piercing.
First Strike is the enabler for all those high damage blows from Shocking Execution.
I personally feel that passive is useless outside of a SE-focused build, and wish it was replaced with something better.
Agreed, totally. A 4/4 First Strike was also a 15% buff to SE's base damage. On the other hand... You'd only see First Strike SE in gaunt. Nobody ever uses it as a primary rotation in dom (or nobody should). But in domination, I've also seen sabos do consistent 80K SE without First Strike.
Best solution just remove piercing damage. SE must respect defence/deflect/tenacity like every single daily on every class. 13 pages and nothing done. That's big LOL.
Rather, the devs themselves respect the implications behind stuff like the concept of "piercing", which is basically just another word to explain "armour piercing attacks" which other MMOGs also have.
These types of attacks have been long a part of MMOGs, and their implications are clear in that it is a method to allow for people to deal low/mediocre but consistent amount of damage against particularly tough opponents.
Therefore, most normal attacks hit way harder, but become unreliable against strong defense. In contrast "armour piercing" type of attacks usually deal significantly lower damage, but against very high defense it can be more efficient than using normal attacks. That's the way it should be conceptually set up.
A good example of piercing damage that is not overboard would be the HR's Longshot in the Archery feat, or the Oppressive Darkness class feature the TRs have. These are all low damage, but against very high deflect chance or very high DR it still allows the class to deal some amount of consistent damage.
In this aspect, the problem with SO and SE is pretty much obvious, especially so with SE. A 80~100k attack that simply ignores mitigation?
Preposterous.
They should make SE respect DR... and then allow a progressive "piercing" upto 40% according to enemy HP, so if the target has 100% HP, then 0% piercing. If the opponent has 50% or lower HP, then 40% of SE damage is counted as "piercing".
For example:
1. SE deals 100k damage
2. Opponent has 80% DR
3. If opponnet has 100% HP, SE hits for 100k x 0.2 = 20k damage
4. If opponent has 75% HP, 20% of SE is piercing = (100k x 0.2) + (80k x 0.2) = 20k + 16k = 36k
5. If opponent has 50% HP or less, 40% of SE is piercing = (100k x 0.4) + (60k x 0.2) = 40k + 12k = 52k
IMO around this type of damage is acceptable in PvP. With all the buffs to make a strong hit against the toughest of classes with 80% DR, a woppin' 50k-ish damage when the TR works his butt off to bring it down to less than half HP.
Instead, the idiocy of a first-hit 80k~100k attack when the fight begins?
It's just bullkrap.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
What i do not get, following Roman's statement, is that DEVs are not moving a single finger at all AFTER not just 13 pages on this thread, but all complains about this power all over the forum. Is that hard to understand that a power dealing 100k of non-mitigable damage is BAD???
SE is discussed since .... December 2015
It's an unilateral discussion , no Dev seems to be aware of, since there never appeared any statement
Or did anyone give any statement?
I do not understand how such a strong character like the Rogue can exist in a game like this. The class is invisible to and after attacks still remains invisible. Play this game a little less than a month and all PVP I lose ugly to rogue. For me can not afford to play PVP why Whenever there is a rogue I already know I'll lose. The equipment need not be very strong, but the rogue has a lot more advantages in pvp than other classes.
That sucks for the game !!
Have you ever considered the possibility hoiw it'd be frustrating for the other guy if his class was so weak as to be defeated by someone who has played this game for a little less than a month?
How can you be sure that the reason you lose is not because you are inexperienced and bad? You said yourself you've played the game less than a month. Do you expect to be able to defeat other people with that kind of experience?
Hello kweassa,
I agree with you mate, I think que may have exaggerated in my opinion. There are other ways to play a balance in pvp.
A good balance of powers in pvp, would be at least the server does not put such strong players against other weak.
I'm not weak in the game, I am balanced. I have no experience in the game, but I will learn.
I know. Forum whiners got two types: the ones that actually know their sh*t and the ones that are just clueless, often inexperienced.
~ The ones who know, they are right. We agree with them. The semi-perma ITC is bad. Piercing from SE has to go. SW/GWF needs a better dodge. CoS and LostM shouldn't be spammable etc etc...
~ The clueless ones, they can't even tell what kind of TR killed them. They just recognize the blue class icon and then run to the forums. I switch builds a lot, because I get bored quick. I have been on the receiving end of may hate PMs, and the most interesting goes this way:
???: "Go F yourself TR you 0 skill n**b."
ME: "Do you even realize I'm Scoundrel" /or "not using SE" or "I'm Whisperknife" etc etc
???: "You're a TR"
ME: "..."
I'm not weak in the game, I am balanced. I have no experience in the game, but I will learn.
With utter respect towards you and not a single ounce of disrespect intended, truthfully speaking, sir, I find that highly improbable and thus, highly incredible.
In my book, newbies are newbies because they don't perceive just how much difference there is between a new guy and an experienced veteran. Even assuming the exact same gear, there's just no comparison. The moment when somebody realizes this, that's the moment when that guy's no longer a newbie, and its from that point on, his skill and understanding in PvP can finally grow.
4~5 weeks isn't enough time to make someone competitive in any game, even if that someone has prior PvP experience in other games.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I'm not weak in the game, I am balanced. I have no experience in the game, but I will learn.
With utter respect towards you and not a single ounce of disrespect intended, truthfully speaking, sir, I find that highly improbable and thus, highly incredible.
In my book, newbies are newbies because they don't perceive just how much difference there is between a new guy and an experienced veteran. Even assuming the exact same gear, there's just no comparison. The moment when somebody realizes this, that's the moment when that guy's no longer a newbie, and its from that point on, his skill and understanding in PvP can finally grow.
4~5 weeks isn't enough time to make someone competitive in any game, even if that someone has prior PvP experience in other games.
Good points.
I started this game absolutely zero knowledge on all the acronyms on chat. I was freaking out wtf DC PK CW DS FF CN meant. I died to a boss and walked out the Mad Dragon's entrance trying to get back to my team, a party member had to go out and pick me up. You see, they were pretty n**b too because they didn't know to tell me what "Return to Instance" was. GG. Mark of the newbies. I didn't consider myself getting any good until 1 or 2 modules later. That's when I've played all the classes to as far as needed to study mechanics. And then do it every now and then with every class rebalancing going on. Cost me a fortune in respecs to figure out a build, only to do it again next module.
It's also a problem with artifacts, pop your mythical cleric artifact and your one shotting every minute or damn close to one shotting.
I play against a TR from a pvp guild who literally runs away if he can't kill my GF because of my shield, comes back 30 seconds later and SE me when I have no idea he's there and I'm dead. 136k dmg, TR are hard without SE, add that in and it's just easy mode.
The class with the most advantages, by far, is the CW.
Are you serious right now? CW? CW is back to being the quiet little caster it once was before. Basically any class can give a CW a run for his money at decent gear, even the Scourge Warlock.
With Negation being affected by armorpen, CW isn't THAT threatening anymore. Some classes cut through shield like its paper, such as GF/GWF/TR.
Maybe against these green geared pugs, that's where Disintegrate actually distintegrates. But CW isn't the powerhouse it used to be in module 4 and 5. It needs to teleport around and actually pay attention now.
Beta player
One of the many Control Wizards that misses Shard Of The Endless Avalanche. RIP Shard (Beta-Mod3)
Let me just say the argument is not whether either of our classes rely on certain feats, enchantments or mechanic to perform fully. Regardless of that being Trans Neg/Feytouched, Thorned Roots, Shield, or piercing. The point is, these are all broken things, some more broken than the others. It's a game of is my sh*t more broken than yours.
GWFs in the BiS tier that don't use Negation and Feytouched is zero to none. Why? Because it's the only thing that works. That's the fact. Something works. The fact that not all GWFs have that setup does not defend that the setup itself is OP, therefore the majority of remaining GWFs using it can freely come in here to say that they are weak without it. News flash, they have it.
Likewise, TRs. The larger abuse factor with Shadowy Opportunity and Shocking Execution is owed mostly to the Lostmauth set and Sigil of Devoted. Like trans neg and fey, both accessible to all classes. However, like for GWFs, this setup is not BiS for everyone. You GWFs can't use LoL/SigDiv to the same OP sh*t extent that we can. And we can't use Trans neg/fey to the same brokeness that you can. TR damage is garbage without piercing, our Lashing Blade hits like a pillow. But that is not an appropriate point of comparison because what we're discussing is the absolute maximum fotm that works.
CWs not using shield possibly Oppressors too don't come in here to complain their class is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, because they have something that works.
Trapper is what works for HRs, so you can't blame them either.
In short, leave the non negation-fey, non SE-abusing, non-trapper or shield-tabbed players out of the discussion. Just take all the broken krap put them in a bucket and see who comes out on top. My guess is TR, closely followed by GWF, and then HR and CW along with OPs and DCs.
Comments
That sucks for the game !!
Have you ever considered the possibility hoiw it'd be frustrating for the other guy if his class was so weak as to be defeated by someone who has played this game for a little less than a month?
How can you be sure that the reason you lose is not because you are inexperienced and bad? You said yourself you've played the game less than a month. Do you expect to be able to defeat other people with that kind of experience?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
First Strike works with it. That's all that really needs a fix, make it so First Strike doesn't work with piercing.
First Strike is the enabler for all those high damage blows from Shocking Execution.
I personally feel that passive is useless outside of a SE-focused build, and wish it was replaced with something better.
Agreed, totally. A 4/4 First Strike was also a 15% buff to SE's base damage. On the other hand... You'd only see First Strike SE in gaunt. Nobody ever uses it as a primary rotation in dom (or nobody should). But in domination, I've also seen sabos do consistent 80K SE without First Strike.
Rather, the devs themselves respect the implications behind stuff like the concept of "piercing", which is basically just another word to explain "armour piercing attacks" which other MMOGs also have.
These types of attacks have been long a part of MMOGs, and their implications are clear in that it is a method to allow for people to deal low/mediocre but consistent amount of damage against particularly tough opponents.
Therefore, most normal attacks hit way harder, but become unreliable against strong defense. In contrast "armour piercing" type of attacks usually deal significantly lower damage, but against very high defense it can be more efficient than using normal attacks. That's the way it should be conceptually set up.
A good example of piercing damage that is not overboard would be the HR's Longshot in the Archery feat, or the Oppressive Darkness class feature the TRs have. These are all low damage, but against very high deflect chance or very high DR it still allows the class to deal some amount of consistent damage.
In this aspect, the problem with SO and SE is pretty much obvious, especially so with SE. A 80~100k attack that simply ignores mitigation?
Preposterous.
They should make SE respect DR... and then allow a progressive "piercing" upto 40% according to enemy HP, so if the target has 100% HP, then 0% piercing. If the opponent has 50% or lower HP, then 40% of SE damage is counted as "piercing".
For example:
1. SE deals 100k damage
2. Opponent has 80% DR
3. If opponnet has 100% HP, SE hits for 100k x 0.2 = 20k damage
4. If opponent has 75% HP, 20% of SE is piercing = (100k x 0.2) + (80k x 0.2) = 20k + 16k = 36k
5. If opponent has 50% HP or less, 40% of SE is piercing = (100k x 0.4) + (60k x 0.2) = 40k + 12k = 52k
IMO around this type of damage is acceptable in PvP. With all the buffs to make a strong hit against the toughest of classes with 80% DR, a woppin' 50k-ish damage when the TR works his butt off to bring it down to less than half HP.
Instead, the idiocy of a first-hit 80k~100k attack when the fight begins?
It's just bullkrap.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
SE is discussed since .... December 2015
It's an unilateral discussion , no Dev seems to be aware of, since there never appeared any statement
Or did anyone give any statement?
Hello kweassa,
I agree with you mate, I think que may have exaggerated in my opinion. There are other ways to play a balance in pvp.
A good balance of powers in pvp, would be at least the server does not put such strong players against other weak.
I'm not weak in the game, I am balanced. I have no experience in the game, but I will learn.
I know. Forum whiners got two types: the ones that actually know their sh*t and the ones that are just clueless, often inexperienced.
~ The ones who know, they are right. We agree with them. The semi-perma ITC is bad. Piercing from SE has to go. SW/GWF needs a better dodge. CoS and LostM shouldn't be spammable etc etc...
~ The clueless ones, they can't even tell what kind of TR killed them. They just recognize the blue class icon and then run to the forums. I switch builds a lot, because I get bored quick. I have been on the receiving end of may hate PMs, and the most interesting goes this way:
???: "Go F yourself TR you 0 skill n**b."
ME: "Do you even realize I'm Scoundrel" /or "not using SE" or "I'm Whisperknife" etc etc
???: "You're a TR"
ME: "..."
With utter respect towards you and not a single ounce of disrespect intended, truthfully speaking, sir, I find that highly improbable and thus, highly incredible.
In my book, newbies are newbies because they don't perceive just how much difference there is between a new guy and an experienced veteran. Even assuming the exact same gear, there's just no comparison. The moment when somebody realizes this, that's the moment when that guy's no longer a newbie, and its from that point on, his skill and understanding in PvP can finally grow.
4~5 weeks isn't enough time to make someone competitive in any game, even if that someone has prior PvP experience in other games.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Good points.
I started this game absolutely zero knowledge on all the acronyms on chat. I was freaking out wtf DC PK CW DS FF CN meant. I died to a boss and walked out the Mad Dragon's entrance trying to get back to my team, a party member had to go out and pick me up. You see, they were pretty n**b too because they didn't know to tell me what "Return to Instance" was. GG. Mark of the newbies. I didn't consider myself getting any good until 1 or 2 modules later. That's when I've played all the classes to as far as needed to study mechanics. And then do it every now and then with every class rebalancing going on. Cost me a fortune in respecs to figure out a build, only to do it again next module.
I play against a TR from a pvp guild who literally runs away if he can't kill my GF because of my shield, comes back 30 seconds later and SE me when I have no idea he's there and I'm dead. 136k dmg, TR are hard without SE, add that in and it's just easy mode.
Are you serious right now? CW? CW is back to being the quiet little caster it once was before. Basically any class can give a CW a run for his money at decent gear, even the Scourge Warlock.
With Negation being affected by armorpen, CW isn't THAT threatening anymore. Some classes cut through shield like its paper, such as GF/GWF/TR.
Maybe against these green geared pugs, that's where Disintegrate actually distintegrates. But CW isn't the powerhouse it used to be in module 4 and 5. It needs to teleport around and actually pay attention now.
One of the many Control Wizards that misses Shard Of The Endless Avalanche. RIP Shard (Beta-Mod3)
Let me just say the argument is not whether either of our classes rely on certain feats, enchantments or mechanic to perform fully. Regardless of that being Trans Neg/Feytouched, Thorned Roots, Shield, or piercing. The point is, these are all broken things, some more broken than the others. It's a game of is my sh*t more broken than yours.
GWFs in the BiS tier that don't use Negation and Feytouched is zero to none. Why? Because it's the only thing that works. That's the fact. Something works. The fact that not all GWFs have that setup does not defend that the setup itself is OP, therefore the majority of remaining GWFs using it can freely come in here to say that they are weak without it. News flash, they have it.
Likewise, TRs. The larger abuse factor with Shadowy Opportunity and Shocking Execution is owed mostly to the Lostmauth set and Sigil of Devoted. Like trans neg and fey, both accessible to all classes. However, like for GWFs, this setup is not BiS for everyone. You GWFs can't use LoL/SigDiv to the same OP sh*t extent that we can. And we can't use Trans neg/fey to the same brokeness that you can. TR damage is garbage without piercing, our Lashing Blade hits like a pillow. But that is not an appropriate point of comparison because what we're discussing is the absolute maximum fotm that works.
CWs not using shield possibly Oppressors too don't come in here to complain their class is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, because they have something that works.
Trapper is what works for HRs, so you can't blame them either.
In short, leave the non negation-fey, non SE-abusing, non-trapper or shield-tabbed players out of the discussion. Just take all the broken krap put them in a bucket and see who comes out on top. My guess is TR, closely followed by GWF, and then HR and CW along with OPs and DCs.