First of all, great stuff on the notes and seems like a lot of progress is being made with these changes.
I finally got around re-testing some stuff after being a way for a couple of days (but still need to get around trying out some other stuff when I get the chance). I've been trying out Concentration, Compassion and Manipulator as possible forms for my main and this have been my impressions so far in terms of stacking:
Concentration and Compassion seem to stack pretty well. I will not get stacks constantly but I seem to be able to get and maintain stacks fairly well throughout the fight, with slow but steady increases that get lost if I spend too much time doing something other than what generates stacks. Compassion seems a little easier to stack, though, since I can simply let the enemies hit me then heal my own sell up till I build up a nice stack of them.
But still, they both seem to grand more or less comparable stacks for the time and effort spent to build them up. Though, admitedly, Compassion seems to be noticeably easier to stack and maintain, but not by a drastic margin compared to Concentration.
Manipulator, on the other hand, is a mess... I thought taking a break from the game might let me catch something I may have missed first time I tried this Form, but honestly I still don't see it. Stacking-wise, it lags FAR behind the other two by a REALLY long distance. Getting just two stacks of Manipulator is a constant struggle to try to hold your enemies while they pound you, and if you spend any effort actually trying to defend or heal your self (since simply holding them down and doing nothing is not the best strategy) or simply getting knocked around too much (I like to test agains Demon at the PH just because of their knocks) can lead you to loose all your stacks.
Manipulator stacks:
Take too much time and effort to build
Are hard to maintain
Have no alternate ways to stack
- Take too much time and effort to build--only a full charge or maintain of a "hold" will grant you one single stack, a lot of holds seem to take a significant time to fully hold or maintain (comparable to Gigabolt and Force Cascade, rather than the faster charged attack powers in most sets)
- Are hard to maintain (at least while soloing a 5-man instance at the PH) despite their supposedly longer duration, since you actually have to do other stuff in a fight (like attack, move around, block, heal yourself, get knocked around, etc.) and its sometimes difficult to get a full charge or maintain before being interrumpted by attacks, knocks--even enemy holds--all of which can prevent you from using your holds in time (this is sort of related to the point above).
- Have no alternate ways to stack--Enrage and Concentration have a bunch of powers that add stacks in addition to normal ways the Forms gain stacks, the Infernal forms are also getting a similar treatment now, Manipulator gets nothing.
At least against PH instance mobs, Concentration and Compassion seem to yeild FAR greater and more noticeable and consistent benefits in PvE. On its current form, I would NOT take Manipulator over Concentration or Compassion for my character, not matter how much I'd like to specialize her as a controller instead of a healer or dps.
I'm not sure what exactly could be done to help Manipulator in some way, but some things that occur to me include:
Gaining Stacks: You gain a stack of Manipulator whenever you half charge or maintain a power for at least 4 ticks. Alternate Stacking: You gain a stack of Manipulator every time you Disorient* an enemy.
*this one's kinda meh for me, since I dont have any powers (unless I take Sleep, which might be a consideration) that have it, but I figured that it might work, since its a Telepathy debuff and seems to work thematically with controls
Naw, it accounts for the two that do the same function. The Elusive Monk and Laser Knight are both 3 point. Don't know why, but they are.
*shrug*
Because LK and EM are significantly more powerful than force sheath and TK shield (because of how they work) and if your build is setup correctly LK and EM effects are always on in combat as opposed to having to be constantly reactivated by toggling your block. That's why they cost different amounts of adv points. You essentially have a temporary weaker linger effect versus an always on stronger effect.
Honestly, with the energy return on Force Sheath it's a blessing that it's only 1 point.,,and this coming from someone who uses it on his main.
Problems with the new version
-Concentration Scaling:
It scales with Int and Ego. Just taking into account that the Scourge AT has none of these 2 stats as its Supers, you're already taking away the bonus Toxic Damage from the Form, and without a good source of Int or Ego, effectively reducing the form's ability to buff damage by quite alot. Personally, my SS are Con/Pres/Rec. I've noticed alot of people run Con/Dex/Rec.
So you've given us a form that scales with stats most of us don't use on that Powerset.
-Stacking
Before, it was 5 stacks of concentrated damage, now its 8 stacks of weaker damage. So basically where before I only had to get 5 poisons to full power, now I have to poison atleast 8 times before I hit max. Which means it takes more time to build up to full power. And with a Pestilence build, you honestly don't even hit max until 10 Poison happen, so that early burst with Infernal Strength was always useful.
-Wasn't Broke, don't fix it.
Many of us have been asking, why did this power need to get changed? It wasn't broken, wasn't misbehaving, everyone was happy with it since the Infernal Pass. And now you've decided that just because Enrage needed to changed and you were adding a Ranged Damage Form that all ranged damage needed to be under that form. But lets be clear, it doesn't. Infernal's Toggle is only going to be useful to Infernal because of the Poison. So I don't get why the change to what the form stacked needed to happen, because no one else is going to be able to use it.
I supposed I understand that you have the mistaken opinion that people who used Ranged powersets are going to have huge ammounts of Ego to scale Concentration, but that's honestly not the case.
Most of us are aware of the diminishing retunrs of Ego and only have it around 90 statwise. Intelligence is un-needed in Infernal with Supernatural Power keeping us from needing lowered energy costs and most of using REC to scale with the Energy Unlock anyway.
Final notes:
If you are going to force the Concentration change to Aspect of the Infernal
-Make Concentration on Aspect scale with different stats. (Con, Rec).
or
-Return the Toxic Damage additive from the original skill.
But I still hope you repeal this change. Its not helping anyone.
Force Sheathe and TK Reinforcement are both 1 Point Advantages.
Does the autormatic trigger really account for 2 points?
Let's not forget Ebon Void which can grant you +100% damage resistance with 10 stacks of voracious darkness for 1 point.
So please devs, make this new adv of Energy Shield a 1 point as well, so players don't stick with the still most useful 3 ones of Force, Darkness and TK.
Also would it be possible to give the other shields a useful adv as well so they can get more love?
Umm... I still dont get how Compassion works.
Is it truly gain stacks EVERY time you heal/healed? Or im wrong? O_o
Becouse tests are showing, that Compassion need a few seconds to trigger next stack. Even with tick per 0,5 seconds.
that's actually just a chance to gain an additional stack besides the one you normally get as in the 20/40% chance from ranking it is to gain 2 stacks at once instead of one.
Umm... I still dont get how Compassion works.
Is it truly gain stacks EVERY time you heal/healed? Or im wrong? O_o
Becouse tests are showing, that Compassion need a few seconds to trigger next stack. Even with tick per 0,5 seconds.
Every time you use a Heal Skill that ACTUALLY heals. You can't use it on someone at full health and still get a stack. Think the same terms as the EB on Celestial. You don't actually get Energy unless you cause a heal.
Problems with the new version
-Concentration Scaling:
It scales with Int and Ego. Just taking into account that the Scourge AT has none of these 2 stats as its Supers, you're already taking away the bonus Toxic Damage from the Form, and without a good source of Int or Ego, effectively reducing the form's ability to buff damage by quite alot. Personally, my SS are Con/Pres/Rec. I've noticed alot of people run Con/Dex/Rec.
So you've given us a form that scales with stats most of us don't use on that Powerset.
-Stacking
Before, it was 5 stacks of concentrated damage, now its 8 stacks of weaker damage. So basically where before I only had to get 5 poisons to full power, now I have to poison atleast 8 times before I hit max. Which means it takes more time to build up to full power. And with a Pestilence build, you honestly don't even hit max until 10 Poison happen, so that early burst with Infernal Strength was always useful.
-Wasn't Broke, don't fix it.
Many of us have been asking, why did this power need to get changed? It wasn't broken, wasn't misbehaving, everyone was happy with it since the Infernal Pass. And now you've decided that just because Enrage needed to changed and you were adding a Ranged Damage Form that all ranged damage needed to be under that form. But lets be clear, it doesn't. Infernal's Toggle is only going to be useful to Infernal because of the Poison. So I don't get why the change to what the form stacked needed to happen, because no one else is going to be able to use it.
I supposed I understand that you have the mistaken opinion that people who used Ranged powersets are going to have huge ammounts of Ego to scale Concentration, but that's honestly not the case.
Most of us are aware of the diminishing retunrs of Ego and only have it around 90 statwise. Intelligence is un-needed in Infernal with Supernatural Power keeping us from needing lowered energy costs and most of using REC to scale with the Energy Unlock anyway.
Final notes:
If you are going to force the Concentration change to Aspect of the Infernal
-Make Concentration on Aspect scale with different stats. (Con, Rec).
or
-Return the Toxic Damage additive from the original skill.
But I still hope you repeal this change. Its not helping anyone.
/signed 100 times ( what a surprise )
Also .. another problem at the moment is :
Epidemic builds up Concentration
Defile builds Infernal Strength
Devour Essence does nothing
So to keep up my stacks i need to switch from DE to Epidemic for a while, then charge a half Defile,
and then go back to DE. This is really chaotic to maintain.
Alternative : take directly Concentration .. but that doesn't trigger at all at the moment on Epidemic or DE.
Also .. i have Infernals with Invuln, Pestilence, Ice-Form and Fire-Form .. all use DEX / CON / REC.
Switching from DEX to EGO may however work but with a loss of 15-20% crit severity.
Every time you use a Heal Skill that ACTUALLY heals. You can't use it on someone at full health and still get a stack. Think the same terms as the EB on Celestial. You don't actually get Energy unless you cause a heal.
Thats the problem. I was made tests in PH battle station under a half HP bar. So my tests was clear.
All of my heals are made pause in gaining stacks.
All powers have tick 0,5 sec. So its should be gained very fast.
But... Still have a pause in few seconds. 4 or 5. Didn't count actually.
1.) Ego Storm full maintain -- still fail
2.) Trick Arrow -- still fail (full charged)
3.) Stun won't apply additional stack -- ex: full charged dragon kick
The description of Manipulator on Trainer:
....whenever you fully charge or maintain a hold power. You can gain up to eight stacks of this buff.
The description of Manipulator on Quick Bar:
....whenever you attempt to control an enemy, you can an additional stack of Manipulator.
More interesting: Sleep: Ego Sleep -- can trigger an additional buff.
Confuse .... (yes, confuse): Mind Lock and Urthona' Charm both can trigger additional buff.
And it is confirmed that Manipulator does increase the durations
Then, which description is correct?
If it is "attempt to control"
Then all relevant powers should be able to trigger manipulator. Including click hold, stun and many other CC powers. There shouldn't be a "fully charge" limit -- once you hold or apply a CC effect to your enemy, an additional stack should be triggered. There also shouldn't be a "damage interruption" limit -- while CC powers can be click powers
If it is "fully charge or maintain a HOLD power"
Then it is significant that there are some irrelevant powers (sleep and confuse) invloving in, and some powers such as Trick Arrow, Ego Storm and charged Stun powers aren't counted in. It is also impracticable to ask player fully charge or maintain a power during a battle without receiving any damage. And ....c'mon, you design that if foe's' struggling strength is great enough, maintain hold will be interrupted -- you don't even need to suffer damage. Hold a Supervillain during a battle? You must be joking, right?!
Power Armor: Minigun: Infared Guidance System: New advantage. Increases radius to 5 feet.
Power Armor: Energy Shield: Phalanx Defense System: New advantage. Using Power Armor Slot (Chest, Hand, or Shoulder) attacks will activate a small defensive buff for a few seconds.
I am happy over this.Out of curiosity though what were the various range per point ideas you were tossing about though? Might be agood way to get simple quick community opinion feedback. Personally I like it as is, lets me get debuff and challenging advantages as well.
Also, minor bug? I think.... Infernal Blast seems to not be refreshing poisons besides the basic deadly poison one. Namely the defile basic / adv ones aren't working except some times it is, or sometimes it refreshes the debuff icon but doesnt really refresh.
Further sometimes if there are multiple infernal builds the debuffs stacks split which bizarrely means only your deadly poisons get refreshed instead of everyones. Sorta prefer it that way to be honest because it lets me easily see if I'm at my 10 or not but a bug is a bug.... granted good luck reproducing this second one, had little success other then it randomly happening. Obviously more noticeable on big giant targets when you can build stacks of poison.
Every time you use a Heal Skill that ACTUALLY heals. You can't use it on someone at full health and still get a stack. Think the same terms as the EB on Celestial. You don't actually get Energy unless you cause a heal.
Haven't tested it as of this patch but the one before it you COULD build stacks on full hp targets with heals but ONLY if it wasnt you, ie pet / another player at 100% gets healed by you then you gain a stack. Healing yourself only worked if you were hurt. But that might have been fixed and well no idea if that was intentional or not (hope it was)
As for the people saying the control one is too hard to maintain, its got a 60 second timer and combined with holds that don't do damage, which is most of them, you can easily have this up forever just by holding a chair while you wait for whatever is stopping you from fighting more. That said building it is alot harder and perhaps the only toggle I'd like to see with either a 1 second gap between stack gains or none at all.
Self portion: 12% Recharge and Cost, 0.37% Charge
Ally portion: 7.4% Recharge and Cost, 0% Charge
Supporter:
Self Portion: 11% Recharge and Cost, 0.32% Charge
Ally Portion: 19% Recharge and Cost, 0% Charge
I don't think the numbers of charge reduction are correct. Even if it can be scaled by SS, it will just provide 1~2% to self, and about 1% to ally. Then we can reduce the charge time of a hold power from 1.83s to 1.79s. How wonderful !!!
Please, rejudge the number of charge reduction. The current numbers provide nearly nothing -- you can't even feel the difference.
Lightning Arc doesn't heal you while you dps with it.
It also roots you.
Akinos has already expressed his lack of interest in balance related commentary, so I was happy to drop it. But if you want to keep throwing out poor comparisons in hopes of distracting me from the fact that CC-DE is ridiculous eazy mode tanking, go ahead and keep trying.
Hey guys, I have been playing with Aura of Ebon Destruction today and have a change I think will provide that little extra OOMPH its been needing! Keep the feedback coming!
Aura of Ebon Destruction:
-*NEW* This power now causes affected players to deal additional Magic damage when they land a critical hit. This may occur twice every 6 seconds.
Actually, I've got a question about the Aura of Ebon Destruction thing, now that it's there. Is it just affected players, like G-Crush said, or is it affected allies? If the latter...well, my AoED petmistress character might start suddenly looking a lot more appealing, and I'm gonna need to rethink her specs a bit. if the former...can it end up as the latter, pwetty pwease G?
Anyways...
I'll also admit that I'm kinda confused as to why the specialized Aspects need to be changed to conform to the general Form stacks. I get why Aggressor's gone (sort of), but Aspect of the Infernal worked very well for the Infernal set, which it was kinda for. If anything else in the game actually applied stacks of poison instead of just stack-of-poison-like independent dots (I'M LOOKING AT YOU, TOXIC NANITES O_O), I might have been able to see it as a sort of weird, less-effective alternative choice for screwy off-build Archery characters or something...but as it stands, it just kinda strikes me as nerfhammering Infernal (and Bestial, all things depending on) for no real reason.
Infernal, alright. I get that folks wanted it nerfed back down - even if I don't agree - but poor Bestial needs all the help it can get, not a club in the facemeats.
I'll also admit that I'm kinda confused as to why the specialized Aspects need to be changed to conform to the general Form stacks.
Because A: Regularity and B: Form style toggles are more cross set friendly. CO is a Freeform game at its heart, buff powers that by large and far only work with their own powerset are bad.
Because A: Regularity and B: Form style toggles are more cross set friendly. CO is a Freeform game at its heart, buff powers that by large and far only work with their own powerset are bad.
Except, as stated in my post a few pages back
Concentration DOES NOT work with Infernal.
Also, you mean how Focus Forms only seem to work with Martial Arts or Enrage mainly only works in Might.
Because A: Regularity and B: Form style toggles are more cross set friendly. CO is a Freeform game at its heart, buff powers that by large and far only work with their own powerset are bad.
Can understand when they don't want to create more of them, but they don't remove Aspect totally, they
just change how it works, but no non-infernal will ever take it since it still works on poison.
And in the current state Infernals can't even have a damage boost when only using DE, and not cycling
through Epidemic and Defile every now and then.
Also, you mean how Focus Forms only seem to work with Martial Arts or Enrage mainly only works in Might.
But no, Ranged should all be under one Form.
Yes, it does. Infernal is a ranged damage set and Concentration is a ranged damage buff. The AT may need some adjustments or the toggle may need alternate scaling, but there is no reason why concentration wouldn't work with infernal powers, even right now as a Freeform.
Also, MA has knocks in it, and three of the four focus toggles can work with might, one of them almost being tailored for it. While some combos might take a little work build or playstyle wise, the point is they are cross framework friendly which is more than can be said about any of the Aspect style toggles, minus maybe Aggressor- which is now an active offense.
Yes, it does. Infernal is a ranged damage set and Concentration is a ranged damage buff. The AT may need some adjustments or the toggle may need alternate scaling, but there is no reason why concentration wouldn't work with infernal powers, even right now as a Freeform.
That's exactly my point. It doesn't work as it is.
But Infernal Strength did, already. There was nothing about it that didn't work, as is.
There was nothing about it that would have been broken next to Concentration.
There was nothing Infernal Strength was doing that Concentration can't end up doing with the proper scaling.
The only reasoning behind this seemes to be to prevent the possible combination of someone getting a stack of Concentration along side stacks of Infernal Strength.
So basically the logic behind changing it is flawed.
Also, you mean how Focus Forms only seem to work with Martial Arts or Enrage mainly only works in Might.
This is very much news to me. Been using Focus forms with Bestial, Supernatural and Brick for a very long time now and I think people using Enrage with ranged builds should need no introduction by now. The new changes to both are still going to allow this for many sets. People have even been using Focus forms for ranged sets as energy unlocks for a long time now too...and now if they do so they'll even get a damage buff as well.
This is very much news to me. Been using Focus forms with Bestial, Supernatural and Brick for a very long time now and I think people using Enrage with ranged builds should need no introduction by now. The new changes to both are still going to allow this for many sets. People have even been using Focus forms for ranged sets as energy unlocks for a long time now too...and now if they do so they'll even get a damage buff as well.
Which is great, a Ranged Damage Form is perfectly fine. For the sets that didn't have one.
There is still no reason why they had to break Aspect of the Infernal to give everyone else a Damage form.
Problems with the new version
-Concentration Scaling:
It scales with Int and Ego. Just taking into account that the Scourge AT has none of these 2 stats as its Supers, you're already taking away the bonus Toxic Damage from the Form, and without a good source of Int or Ego, effectively reducing the form's ability to buff damage by quite alot. Personally, my SS are Con/Pres/Rec. I've noticed alot of people run Con/Dex/Rec.
So you've given us a form that scales with stats most of us don't use on that Powerset.
-Stacking
Before, it was 5 stacks of concentrated damage, now its 8 stacks of weaker damage. So basically where before I only had to get 5 poisons to full power, now I have to poison atleast 8 times before I hit max. Which means it takes more time to build up to full power. And with a Pestilence build, you honestly don't even hit max until 10 Poison happen, so that early burst with Infernal Strength was always useful.
-Wasn't Broke, don't fix it.
Many of us have been asking, why did this power need to get changed? It wasn't broken, wasn't misbehaving, everyone was happy with it since the Infernal Pass. And now you've decided that just because Enrage needed to changed and you were adding a Ranged Damage Form that all ranged damage needed to be under that form. But lets be clear, it doesn't. Infernal's Toggle is only going to be useful to Infernal because of the Poison. So I don't get why the change to what the form stacked needed to happen, because no one else is going to be able to use it.
I supposed I understand that you have the mistaken opinion that people who used Ranged powersets are going to have huge ammounts of Ego to scale Concentration, but that's honestly not the case.
Most of us are aware of the diminishing retunrs of Ego and only have it around 90 statwise. Intelligence is un-needed in Infernal with Supernatural Power keeping us from needing lowered energy costs and most of using REC to scale with the Energy Unlock anyway.
Final notes:
If you are going to force the Concentration change to Aspect of the Infernal
-Make Concentration on Aspect scale with different stats. (Con, Rec).
or
-Return the Toxic Damage additive from the original skill.
But I still hope you repeal this change. Its not helping anyone.
THE AT IS REC/CON/EGO
DO YOUR RESEARCH FIRST B4 SAYING CRAP LIKE THIS :mad:
So basically the logic behind changing it is flawed.
No, no it's really not. I explained why, and you brushed it off with something that's completely irrelevant to the good, sensible reasoning behind said changes.
No, no it's really not. I explained why, and you brushed it off with something that's completely irrelevant to the good, sensible reasoning behind said changes.
While some combos might take a little work build or playstyle wise, the point is they are cross framework friendly which is more than can be said about any of the Aspect style toggles, minus maybe Aggressor- which is now an active offense.
Except that Aspect of the Infernal still builds its Concentration off Poison, which means its the ONLY one that can use it.
Unless you know of another Powerset that uses poison? So again, there was no point in changing the Aspect because you just changed what it stacked, not how it did it, or what powers could stack it.
I'm sorry, I could of sworn I said this applied to Concentration, unless of course you're planning on taking the Ranged Damage Form for Fighting Claws.
Personally I'd be taking Beastial if you're gonna do an Aspect.
well you tried to use misinformation to justify an unneeded change. Infernal is pretty friggin OP dmg wise anyway
And how is scaleing off ego ANY different than enrage scaling off str
You obviously didn't read past that point, so reply after you do.
The grand majority of people who play Infernal do not use Ego as a main stat (outside of the AT).
If they are going to keep the Concentration stacking for Aspect, then it needs to scale off CON or REC.
(But only for Aspect. It can scale normally off Ego and Int for Concentration itself).
Please don't blame me because you repeatedly post stuff that's flat wrong due to a lack of fact checking on your part. In the last couple of days alone you've posted.
1) The latest bit about the scourge AT and its stats
2) Field Surge applying on top of PFF when it applied under it
3) PFF not having any recent changes when the On Alert patch notes would have told you otherwise.
4) Focus forms only working with MA when they work with any melee, most ranged and also one of them works with anyone using dodge regardless.
5) Enrage only working with might which really shouldn't need an explanation.
I'm sorry, I could of sworn I said this applied to Concentration, unless of course you're planning on taking the Ranged Damage Form for Fighting Claws.
Personally I'd be taking Beastial if you're gonna do an Aspect.
I might take the ranged damage form on a claws build depending on what else I'm doing with it. But I thought the question was specifically about knowing if another set that uses poison? Well...does claws poison count as being in aother set or not and does that poison work? If so, then there is another set that can use it. If not, then no.
Except that Aspect of the Infernal still builds its Concentration off Poison, which means its the ONLY one that can use it.
Unless you know of another Powerset that uses poison? So again, there was no point in changing the Aspect because you just changed what it stacked, not how it did it, or what powers could stack it.
Yes, and if it was my call, it would also build stacks off attacks being used at range and possibly some other cross set mechanic.
However, even so, the damage buff granted by the toggle still works for powers that aren't infernal. Do have some reading comprehension, as I specifically stated:
While some combos might take a little work build or playstyle wise, the point is they are cross framework friendly
Earlier, and it still applies. While Infernal/Whatever hybrids will have to cycle their Infernal attacks in frequently to build and keep stacks, the simple fact is the buff they get from this effects everything. Which is not the case with any of the Aspect style toggles on live.
Also, FYI, Ego is a good stat now. Its tree has nice options in it, and its inherent bonuses are extremely attractive in many builds.
Yes, and if it was my call, it would also build stacks off attacks being used at range and possibly some other cross set mechanic.
However, even so, the damage buff granted by the toggle still works for powers that aren't infernal. Do have some reading comprehension, as I specifically stated:
Earlier, and it still applies. While Infernal/Whatever hybrids will have to cycle their Infernal attacks in frequently to build and keep stacks, the simple fact is the buff they get from this effects everything. Which is not the case with any of the Aspect style toggles on live.
Also, FYI, Ego is a good stat now. Its tree has nice options in it, and its inherent bonuses are extremely attractive in many builds.
Regardless. Its once again asking for a gigantic restatting/rebuilding when it would just be easier to have the Aspect Toggle scale off different stats.
The only reason the idea is currently viable is because of the AT having EGO. If it was build CON/REC/DEX like most people have (Beldin said this I believe) then the AT would have to be changed to fit the Form, just like all the Freeforms who don't put much into Ego.
As I recall, Poison isn't effected by Ego, but I'm not 100% on that. It only scales off itself and any Toxic Damage addition? As such, I believe that then Poison is probably taking a hit off the loss of the +Toxic Damage loss from Aspect.
Aswell as that Concentration would do nothing for the Poison itself either, correct.
Granted I understand, that mechanic needs very little help, but its still taking a 15% damage hit.
Honestly is it really such a ball breaking problem to have the Aspect scaled off different stats than Concentration is?
Ok .. here again the current state of Infernal and the Forms :
Aspect of the Infernal :
Using DE .. no stacks at all
Epidemic .. builds up Concentration
Defile charges .. build up Infernal Strength
But hey .. if you manage to keep both stacks up then its nice
Concentration-Toggle :
DE and Epidemic .. don't build stacks at all
Defile charges .. build up conentration
In the current state, and since i prefer DEX / CON / REC i will at least switch to Form of the Tempest on my
defense chars .. but wait .. if they really make DE a ranged power now, then thats also bad.
Offense chars who use DE only for finishing Bosses maybe will be respeced to EGO / CON / REC .. not sure.
So .. at the moment i can maybe only hope that the fix the Concentration-Toggle so that all powers will
be able to build up stacks.
While this didn't make it into the current PTS build, I am quite concerned that this is far too much time to build stacks when compared to other similar toggles.
Form of the Swordsman: can stack Focus as fast as character can make people bleed.
Form of the Tempest: I'd say the dedicated melee DPS with a DEX primary floats about a 35-50% crit chance for their primary attack. Taps roll in at just over half a second roughly so its quick to build stacks.
Form of the Tiger: A half-charge is required to gain a single stack. Dragon's Claws has a 0.83 charge time meaning, including activation, you're looking a a new stack every second at best.. one and a half to two seconds for your typical melee charge power.
And on top of this, while they share the same 'rank equaling stacks' mechanic as Enrage, Enrage doesn't share the bonus chance on rank up to gain an additional stack.
I suggest that the stacking for Enrage on knock be limited to stacking every 2 seconds at worst.
You can still stack Enrage as fast as you always could using the existing powers (e.g., roomsweeper, havoc stomp). The knock is on top of that. My understanding of the patch note is the internal cooldown is only applied to the knock portion (which prevents things like Roomsweeper granting 6 stacks when you AOE + Knock a group of three mobs). Whether it is 2 seconds or 4 seconds? Meh.
Not according to Kenpo, apparently he can make it work with one Fighting Claws skill.
:rolleyes:
Possibly, never tried. All depends on if that poison counts. If it does, the skill that applies it can do it fairly reliably and quickly. Would work fine on a hybrid build in theory. Considering that it's listed effect is deadly poison it should work.
Comments
Force Sheathe and TK Reinforcement are both 1 Point Advantages.
Does the autormatic trigger really account for 2 points?
Naw, it accounts for the two that do the same function. The Elusive Monk and Laser Knight are both 3 point. Don't know why, but they are.
*shrug*
I finally got around re-testing some stuff after being a way for a couple of days (but still need to get around trying out some other stuff when I get the chance). I've been trying out Concentration, Compassion and Manipulator as possible forms for my main and this have been my impressions so far in terms of stacking:
Concentration and Compassion seem to stack pretty well. I will not get stacks constantly but I seem to be able to get and maintain stacks fairly well throughout the fight, with slow but steady increases that get lost if I spend too much time doing something other than what generates stacks. Compassion seems a little easier to stack, though, since I can simply let the enemies hit me then heal my own sell up till I build up a nice stack of them.
But still, they both seem to grand more or less comparable stacks for the time and effort spent to build them up. Though, admitedly, Compassion seems to be noticeably easier to stack and maintain, but not by a drastic margin compared to Concentration.
Manipulator, on the other hand, is a mess... I thought taking a break from the game might let me catch something I may have missed first time I tried this Form, but honestly I still don't see it. Stacking-wise, it lags FAR behind the other two by a REALLY long distance. Getting just two stacks of Manipulator is a constant struggle to try to hold your enemies while they pound you, and if you spend any effort actually trying to defend or heal your self (since simply holding them down and doing nothing is not the best strategy) or simply getting knocked around too much (I like to test agains Demon at the PH just because of their knocks) can lead you to loose all your stacks.
Manipulator stacks:
- Take too much time and effort to build--only a full charge or maintain of a "hold" will grant you one single stack, a lot of holds seem to take a significant time to fully hold or maintain (comparable to Gigabolt and Force Cascade, rather than the faster charged attack powers in most sets)
- Are hard to maintain (at least while soloing a 5-man instance at the PH) despite their supposedly longer duration, since you actually have to do other stuff in a fight (like attack, move around, block, heal yourself, get knocked around, etc.) and its sometimes difficult to get a full charge or maintain before being interrumpted by attacks, knocks--even enemy holds--all of which can prevent you from using your holds in time (this is sort of related to the point above).
- Have no alternate ways to stack--Enrage and Concentration have a bunch of powers that add stacks in addition to normal ways the Forms gain stacks, the Infernal forms are also getting a similar treatment now, Manipulator gets nothing.
At least against PH instance mobs, Concentration and Compassion seem to yeild FAR greater and more noticeable and consistent benefits in PvE. On its current form, I would NOT take Manipulator over Concentration or Compassion for my character, not matter how much I'd like to specialize her as a controller instead of a healer or dps.
I'm not sure what exactly could be done to help Manipulator in some way, but some things that occur to me include:
Gaining Stacks: You gain a stack of Manipulator whenever you half charge or maintain a power for at least 4 ticks.
Alternate Stacking: You gain a stack of Manipulator every time you Disorient* an enemy.
*this one's kinda meh for me, since I dont have any powers (unless I take Sleep, which might be a consideration) that have it, but I figured that it might work, since its a Telepathy debuff and seems to work thematically with controls
Because LK and EM are significantly more powerful than force sheath and TK shield (because of how they work) and if your build is setup correctly LK and EM effects are always on in combat as opposed to having to be constantly reactivated by toggling your block. That's why they cost different amounts of adv points. You essentially have a temporary weaker linger effect versus an always on stronger effect.
Honestly, with the energy return on Force Sheath it's a blessing that it's only 1 point.,,and this coming from someone who uses it on his main.
Problems with the new version
-Concentration Scaling:
It scales with Int and Ego. Just taking into account that the Scourge AT has none of these 2 stats as its Supers, you're already taking away the bonus Toxic Damage from the Form, and without a good source of Int or Ego, effectively reducing the form's ability to buff damage by quite alot. Personally, my SS are Con/Pres/Rec. I've noticed alot of people run Con/Dex/Rec.
So you've given us a form that scales with stats most of us don't use on that Powerset.
-Stacking
Before, it was 5 stacks of concentrated damage, now its 8 stacks of weaker damage. So basically where before I only had to get 5 poisons to full power, now I have to poison atleast 8 times before I hit max. Which means it takes more time to build up to full power. And with a Pestilence build, you honestly don't even hit max until 10 Poison happen, so that early burst with Infernal Strength was always useful.
-Wasn't Broke, don't fix it.
Many of us have been asking, why did this power need to get changed? It wasn't broken, wasn't misbehaving, everyone was happy with it since the Infernal Pass. And now you've decided that just because Enrage needed to changed and you were adding a Ranged Damage Form that all ranged damage needed to be under that form. But lets be clear, it doesn't. Infernal's Toggle is only going to be useful to Infernal because of the Poison. So I don't get why the change to what the form stacked needed to happen, because no one else is going to be able to use it.
I supposed I understand that you have the mistaken opinion that people who used Ranged powersets are going to have huge ammounts of Ego to scale Concentration, but that's honestly not the case.
Most of us are aware of the diminishing retunrs of Ego and only have it around 90 statwise. Intelligence is un-needed in Infernal with Supernatural Power keeping us from needing lowered energy costs and most of using REC to scale with the Energy Unlock anyway.
Final notes:
If you are going to force the Concentration change to Aspect of the Infernal
-Make Concentration on Aspect scale with different stats. (Con, Rec).
or
-Return the Toxic Damage additive from the original skill.
But I still hope you repeal this change. Its not helping anyone.
So please devs, make this new adv of Energy Shield a 1 point as well, so players don't stick with the still most useful 3 ones of Force, Darkness and TK.
Also would it be possible to give the other shields a useful adv as well so they can get more love?
Is it truly gain stacks EVERY time you heal/healed? Or im wrong? O_o
Becouse tests are showing, that Compassion need a few seconds to trigger next stack. Even with tick per 0,5 seconds.
oic thanks so much for the clarification.
Every time you use a Heal Skill that ACTUALLY heals. You can't use it on someone at full health and still get a stack. Think the same terms as the EB on Celestial. You don't actually get Energy unless you cause a heal.
/signed 100 times ( what a surprise
Also .. another problem at the moment is :
Epidemic builds up Concentration
Defile builds Infernal Strength
Devour Essence does nothing
So to keep up my stacks i need to switch from DE to Epidemic for a while, then charge a half Defile,
and then go back to DE. This is really chaotic to maintain.
Alternative : take directly Concentration .. but that doesn't trigger at all at the moment on Epidemic or DE.
Also .. i have Infernals with Invuln, Pestilence, Ice-Form and Fire-Form .. all use DEX / CON / REC.
Switching from DEX to EGO may however work but with a loss of 15-20% crit severity.
Thats the problem. I was made tests in PH battle station under a half HP bar. So my tests was clear.
All of my heals are made pause in gaining stacks.
All powers have tick 0,5 sec. So its should be gained very fast.
But... Still have a pause in few seconds. 4 or 5. Didn't count actually.
However,
1.) Ego Storm full maintain -- still fail
2.) Trick Arrow -- still fail (full charged)
3.) Stun won't apply additional stack -- ex: full charged dragon kick
The description of Manipulator on Trainer:
....whenever you fully charge or maintain a hold power. You can gain up to eight stacks of this buff.
The description of Manipulator on Quick Bar:
....whenever you attempt to control an enemy, you can an additional stack of Manipulator.
More interesting:
Sleep: Ego Sleep -- can trigger an additional buff.
Confuse .... (yes, confuse): Mind Lock and Urthona' Charm both can trigger additional buff.
And it is confirmed that Manipulator does increase the durations
Then, which description is correct?
If it is "attempt to control"
Then all relevant powers should be able to trigger manipulator. Including click hold, stun and many other CC powers. There shouldn't be a "fully charge" limit -- once you hold or apply a CC effect to your enemy, an additional stack should be triggered. There also shouldn't be a "damage interruption" limit -- while CC powers can be click powers
If it is "fully charge or maintain a HOLD power"
Then it is significant that there are some irrelevant powers (sleep and confuse) invloving in, and some powers such as Trick Arrow, Ego Storm and charged Stun powers aren't counted in. It is also impracticable to ask player fully charge or maintain a power during a battle without receiving any damage. And ....c'mon, you design that if foe's' struggling strength is great enough, maintain hold will be interrupted -- you don't even need to suffer damage. Hold a Supervillain during a battle? You must be joking, right?!
I am happy over this.Out of curiosity though what were the various range per point ideas you were tossing about though? Might be agood way to get simple quick community opinion feedback. Personally I like it as is, lets me get debuff and challenging advantages as well.
Also, minor bug? I think.... Infernal Blast seems to not be refreshing poisons besides the basic deadly poison one. Namely the defile basic / adv ones aren't working except some times it is, or sometimes it refreshes the debuff icon but doesnt really refresh.
Further sometimes if there are multiple infernal builds the debuffs stacks split which bizarrely means only your deadly poisons get refreshed instead of everyones. Sorta prefer it that way to be honest because it lets me easily see if I'm at my 10 or not but a bug is a bug.... granted good luck reproducing this second one, had little success other then it randomly happening. Obviously more noticeable on big giant targets when you can build stacks of poison.
Haven't tested it as of this patch but the one before it you COULD build stacks on full hp targets with heals but ONLY if it wasnt you, ie pet / another player at 100% gets healed by you then you gain a stack. Healing yourself only worked if you were hurt. But that might have been fixed and well no idea if that was intentional or not (hope it was)
As for the people saying the control one is too hard to maintain, its got a 60 second timer and combined with holds that don't do damage, which is most of them, you can easily have this up forever just by holding a chair while you wait for whatever is stopping you from fighting more. That said building it is alot harder and perhaps the only toggle I'd like to see with either a 1 second gap between stack gains or none at all.
(No talent, no spec, no SS, at lvl 40)
Self portion: 12% Recharge and Cost, 0.37% Charge
Ally portion: 7.4% Recharge and Cost, 0% Charge
Supporter:
Self Portion: 11% Recharge and Cost, 0.32% Charge
Ally Portion: 19% Recharge and Cost, 0% Charge
I don't think the numbers of charge reduction are correct. Even if it can be scaled by SS, it will just provide 1~2% to self, and about 1% to ally. Then we can reduce the charge time of a hold power from 1.83s to 1.79s. How wonderful !!!
Please, rejudge the number of charge reduction. The current numbers provide nearly nothing -- you can't even feel the difference.
Exactly Tom.
You put a smile on my face
Anyways...
I'll also admit that I'm kinda confused as to why the specialized Aspects need to be changed to conform to the general Form stacks. I get why Aggressor's gone (sort of), but Aspect of the Infernal worked very well for the Infernal set, which it was kinda for. If anything else in the game actually applied stacks of poison instead of just stack-of-poison-like independent dots (I'M LOOKING AT YOU, TOXIC NANITES O_O), I might have been able to see it as a sort of weird, less-effective alternative choice for screwy off-build Archery characters or something...but as it stands, it just kinda strikes me as nerfhammering Infernal (and Bestial, all things depending on) for no real reason.
Infernal, alright. I get that folks wanted it nerfed back down - even if I don't agree - but poor Bestial needs all the help it can get, not a club in the facemeats.
Because A: Regularity and B: Form style toggles are more cross set friendly. CO is a Freeform game at its heart, buff powers that by large and far only work with their own powerset are bad.
Except, as stated in my post a few pages back
Concentration DOES NOT work with Infernal.
Also, you mean how Focus Forms only seem to work with Martial Arts or Enrage mainly only works in Might.
But no, Ranged should all be under one Form.
Can understand when they don't want to create more of them, but they don't remove Aspect totally, they
just change how it works, but no non-infernal will ever take it since it still works on poison.
And in the current state Infernals can't even have a damage boost when only using DE, and not cycling
through Epidemic and Defile every now and then.
Yes, it does. Infernal is a ranged damage set and Concentration is a ranged damage buff. The AT may need some adjustments or the toggle may need alternate scaling, but there is no reason why concentration wouldn't work with infernal powers, even right now as a Freeform.
Also, MA has knocks in it, and three of the four focus toggles can work with might, one of them almost being tailored for it. While some combos might take a little work build or playstyle wise, the point is they are cross framework friendly which is more than can be said about any of the Aspect style toggles, minus maybe Aggressor- which is now an active offense.
It actually does not trigger new stacks with the concentration buff if you use DE or Epidemic. Only charging Defile works at the moment.
That's exactly my point. It doesn't work as it is.
But Infernal Strength did, already. There was nothing about it that didn't work, as is.
There was nothing about it that would have been broken next to Concentration.
There was nothing Infernal Strength was doing that Concentration can't end up doing with the proper scaling.
The only reasoning behind this seemes to be to prevent the possible combination of someone getting a stack of Concentration along side stacks of Infernal Strength.
So basically the logic behind changing it is flawed.
This is very much news to me. Been using Focus forms with Bestial, Supernatural and Brick for a very long time now and I think people using Enrage with ranged builds should need no introduction by now. The new changes to both are still going to allow this for many sets. People have even been using Focus forms for ranged sets as energy unlocks for a long time now too...and now if they do so they'll even get a damage buff as well.
Which is great, a Ranged Damage Form is perfectly fine. For the sets that didn't have one.
There is still no reason why they had to break Aspect of the Infernal to give everyone else a Damage form.
THE AT IS REC/CON/EGO
DO YOUR RESEARCH FIRST B4 SAYING CRAP LIKE THIS :mad:
No, no it's really not. I explained why, and you brushed it off with something that's completely irrelevant to the good, sensible reasoning behind said changes.
I didn't see that Ego was the third stat
Btw did you miss that part below about not taking much EGO on a Freeform cause we know better?
Oh and calm the hell down.
Except that Aspect of the Infernal still builds its Concentration off Poison, which means its the ONLY one that can use it.
Unless you know of another Powerset that uses poison? So again, there was no point in changing the Aspect because you just changed what it stacked, not how it did it, or what powers could stack it.
You mean the AT does automatically have the stats required? Shocking...not really.
You mean you needed to post a sarcastic snide comment that in no way makes me any less right?
Shocking.
Does fighting claws' poison count?
I'm sorry, I could of sworn I said this applied to Concentration, unless of course you're planning on taking the Ranged Damage Form for Fighting Claws.
Personally I'd be taking Beastial if you're gonna do an Aspect.
And how is scaleing off ego ANY different than enrage scaling off str
You obviously didn't read past that point, so reply after you do.
The grand majority of people who play Infernal do not use Ego as a main stat (outside of the AT).
If they are going to keep the Concentration stacking for Aspect, then it needs to scale off CON or REC.
(But only for Aspect. It can scale normally off Ego and Int for Concentration itself).
Please don't blame me because you repeatedly post stuff that's flat wrong due to a lack of fact checking on your part. In the last couple of days alone you've posted.
1) The latest bit about the scourge AT and its stats
2) Field Surge applying on top of PFF when it applied under it
3) PFF not having any recent changes when the On Alert patch notes would have told you otherwise.
4) Focus forms only working with MA when they work with any melee, most ranged and also one of them works with anyone using dodge regardless.
5) Enrage only working with might which really shouldn't need an explanation.
Please just check your facts.
I might take the ranged damage form on a claws build depending on what else I'm doing with it. But I thought the question was specifically about knowing if another set that uses poison? Well...does claws poison count as being in aother set or not and does that poison work? If so, then there is another set that can use it. If not, then no.
Yes, and if it was my call, it would also build stacks off attacks being used at range and possibly some other cross set mechanic.
However, even so, the damage buff granted by the toggle still works for powers that aren't infernal. Do have some reading comprehension, as I specifically stated:
Earlier, and it still applies. While Infernal/Whatever hybrids will have to cycle their Infernal attacks in frequently to build and keep stacks, the simple fact is the buff they get from this effects everything. Which is not the case with any of the Aspect style toggles on live.
Also, FYI, Ego is a good stat now. Its tree has nice options in it, and its inherent bonuses are extremely attractive in many builds.
PPL HATE SSING REC >_>
Regardless. Its once again asking for a gigantic restatting/rebuilding when it would just be easier to have the Aspect Toggle scale off different stats.
The only reason the idea is currently viable is because of the AT having EGO. If it was build CON/REC/DEX like most people have (Beldin said this I believe) then the AT would have to be changed to fit the Form, just like all the Freeforms who don't put much into Ego.
As I recall, Poison isn't effected by Ego, but I'm not 100% on that. It only scales off itself and any Toxic Damage addition? As such, I believe that then Poison is probably taking a hit off the loss of the +Toxic Damage loss from Aspect.
Aswell as that Concentration would do nothing for the Poison itself either, correct.
Granted I understand, that mechanic needs very little help, but its still taking a 15% damage hit.
Honestly is it really such a ball breaking problem to have the Aspect scaled off different stats than Concentration is?
Again, read. I was only talking about changing the scaling as it applied to Aspect of the Infernal's Concentration Stacks.
Not the Concentration Form itself, which would still use INT/EGO.
And guess what, Infernals don't hate SSing REC, that's kinda the point. Its what Supernatural Power scales off of.
The funny thing is .. the official Website still only shows CON / REC :rolleyes:
http://www.champions-online.com/archetypes/scourge
Ok .. here again the current state of Infernal and the Forms :
Aspect of the Infernal :
Using DE .. no stacks at all
Epidemic .. builds up Concentration
Defile charges .. build up Infernal Strength
But hey .. if you manage to keep both stacks up then its nice
Concentration-Toggle :
DE and Epidemic .. don't build stacks at all
Defile charges .. build up conentration
In the current state, and since i prefer DEX / CON / REC i will at least switch to Form of the Tempest on my
defense chars .. but wait .. if they really make DE a ranged power now, then thats also bad.
Offense chars who use DE only for finishing Bosses maybe will be respeced to EGO / CON / REC .. not sure.
So .. at the moment i can maybe only hope that the fix the Concentration-Toggle so that all powers will
be able to build up stacks.
Nope, just counter intelligence. :rolleyes:
Non infernals screw up themself already if they pick aspect of the Infernal
Not according to Kenpo, apparently he can make it work with one Fighting Claws skill.
:rolleyes:
You can still stack Enrage as fast as you always could using the existing powers (e.g., roomsweeper, havoc stomp). The knock is on top of that. My understanding of the patch note is the internal cooldown is only applied to the knock portion (which prevents things like Roomsweeper granting 6 stacks when you AOE + Knock a group of three mobs). Whether it is 2 seconds or 4 seconds? Meh.
Even if .. and even if something like Toxic Nanites may work .. with Claws i would still take of course
MA-Forms.
Possibly, never tried. All depends on if that poison counts. If it does, the skill that applies it can do it fairly reliably and quickly. Would work fine on a hybrid build in theory. Considering that it's listed effect is deadly poison it should work.