You're concerned about the heroic nature of draining life essence out of someone...
But not entirely worried about setting them on fire, using high explosives on them, firing energy beams, electrocution, ice cold enough to stay solid despite any sign of ambient temperatures (including in the center of a volcano), bullets, edged weapons, hammers swung around one-handed with ease while being larger then sledgehammers, and hitting them hard enough to send them at least fifty feet into the air before landing?
I dunno, I'd have bigger health concerns before Devour Essence started to bother me. There's a clear non-lethality point with it that's not really found in a lot of other sets.
I also can't get over Devour Essence even being in this game. It's a really cool power, but it's so... un-heroic. Whenever I use it I'm always like "Oh, I'm just like... sucking out their energy... right? They're just taking a little nap, right? Right? oh god I'm a monster"
And you're doing what otherwise? Shooting them with rubber bullets? Are all of your arrows set to stun? Is your huge, sharp sword made of a magical metal that only causes bruising?
I'd learn about tactical positioning if it were required here, but it's not. Seeing as all the encounters only require that I stand still and run a rotation there's no point. If there was I wouldn't have been tanking Kiga while pressing two buttons...and I *think* I saw you there. I'd have been moving around trying to avoid big attacks or changing my range if range had some advantage. Instead, it was plant feet and press 3 and 4.
Grats on keeping agro off of us (don't remember your toon's name). Now try his dogs (tele/quij/mega d/jack fool/ bronzy/etc) with a range toon on an offensive passive without any CON/tank just for fun, then tell me about tactics... Tanking kiga is easy mode with any powers not just 2. And why are you defending a point that u know is wrong? The point of doing the highest dps possible is to get the loots for yourself/team, tanking kiga with 2 buttons does not get you the loot against most teams especially against ours. So my point again was(forgot already) don't make that block adv for all range because range is awesome... and also make targeting computer more awesome please. Or do it... it doesn't really matter anyways
Maybe it's just the fear that if the new LK advantage was open to all ranged character, Energy Shield would suddenly become the only existing block enhancer in the game? :eek:
You're concerned about the heroic nature of draining life essence out of someone...
But not entirely worried about setting them on fire, using high explosives on them, firing energy beams, electrocution, ice cold enough to stay solid despite any sign of ambient temperatures (including in the center of a volcano), bullets, edged weapons, hammers swung around one-handed with ease while being larger then sledgehammers, and hitting them hard enough to send them at least fifty feet into the air before landing?
I tend to just explain my characters' attacks away as being "take downs" kind of like how Infamous and Arkham Asylum/City do it. I guess I theoretically DID attack them with lethal force, but that experience bonus plainly says "Take Down" so I guess they're okay!
And knockback always circles back from being horrible to being hilarious because I imagine all the bad guys landing on their keys.
Force Sheath, Voracious Darkness, Laser Knight, Elusive Monk are all the good Block Enhancer advantages.
However, a couple of the non-advantaged options aren't half bad. Retaliation for instance, which effectively turns your block into an ONH damage boost.
I tend to just explain my characters' attacks away as being "take downs" kind of like how Infamous and Arkham Asylum/City do it. I guess I theoretically DID attack them with lethal force, but that experience bonus plainly says "Take Down" so I guess they're okay!
And knockback always circles back from being horrible to being hilarious because I imagine all the bad guys landing on their keys.
It was more a general jab at 'heroic' powersets anyway. At least in the lower levels of any superhero game, you're essentially attacking +1 (hopefully) human mooks who while good enough to be a threat requiring superheroic assistance, are still human at the end of the day and have no real advantages other then being particularly aggressive or nasty individuals. Some of them might border on low levels of Charls Atlas superpowers, but considering the things levied against them that advantage isn't going to spare them a lengthy hospital stay or worse in reality.
Superheroism by definition has unrealistic expectations of lethality, and I don't necessarily think a life-essence drain is the most obvious example of that (though it does rate, it's just not the most immediately obvious issue mostly due to how rare it shows up in superpowered fiction; It's something you see more on darker, edgier anti-heroes or some particular villians).
Now try his dogs (tele/quij/mega d/jack fool/ bronzy/etc) with a range toon on an offensive passive without any CON/tank just for fun, then tell me about tactics...
I've done all of that before which is exactly why I don't buy the ranged greater than melee argument. And me asking for people to qualify that stance with actual numbers and such and getting nothing but some questionable shots at me instead isn't helping.
Since this keeps coming up, I don't use CON for health. I use it for scaling things that go with CON, usually Nimble Mind. Not that it even matters or is germane to the question people keep sidestepping.
Range greater than melee and therefore doesn't deserve an analogous option. OK, why? Explain why and explain why running 3 toggles simultaneously is OK but using the same thing with oh..I don't know...snowstorm by itself is overpowered and imbalanced. That's the question that keeps getting avoided. Saying "durr hurr, you use CON" isn't answering it.
Devour Essence reminds me of The Lady Grey's signature power "Aging Touch" from City of Heroes. Nothing screams heroic like stealing the the life-years away from your adversary. But seriously, there's plenty of "heroes" throughout comics who use deadly weapons and powers.
Devour Essence reminds me of The Lady Grey's signature power "Aging Touch" from City of Heroes. Nothing screams heroic like stealing the the life-years away from your adversary. But seriously, there's plenty of "heroes" throughout comics who use deadly weapons and powers.
I've done all of that before which is exactly why I don't buy the ranged greater than melee argument. And me asking for people to qualify that stance with actual numbers and such and getting nothing but some questionable shots at me instead isn't helping.
Since this keeps coming up, I don't use CON for health. I use it for scaling things that go with CON, usually Nimble Mind. Not that it even matters or is germane to the question people keep sidestepping.
Range greater than melee and therefore doesn't deserve an analogous option. OK, why? Explain why and explain why running 3 toggles simultaneously is OK but using the same thing with oh..I don't know...snowstorm by itself is overpowered and imbalanced. That's the question that keeps getting avoided. Saying "durr hurr, you use CON" isn't answering it.
Not going to post numbers... i'm not that king of person. I AM LAZY AND NOT a name that rhymes with FALI". Also never said anything about range > melee or about 3 toggles. I said... you know what I don't remember what i said now. But the fact that u use con (for whatever reason) + offensive passives in hybrid role is why u can't see the need for some tactics. But keep coming with examples (tanking kigs) that do not have anything to do with my point about tactics. Ah, I remember now... keep that block adv for PA or not whatever. And give target computer some love please, any love...
Not going to post numbers... i'm not that king of person. I AM LAZY AND NOT a name that rhymes with FALI". Also never said anything about range > melee or about 3 toggles. I said... you know what I don't remember what i said now. But the fact that u use con (for whatever reason) + offensive passives in hybrid role is why u can't see the need for some tactics.
So nothing objective, just 'UR BAD BECUZ IM GUD AND SEZ U ARE'.
While cute, none of that is constructive. How about we focus on keeping things both constructive and objective, and if you have further personal issues, you keep it to PMs or move it somewhere more appropriate (though I'm not sure we have an appropriate place for that jazz).
So nothing objective, just 'UR BAD BECUZ IM GUD AND SEZ U ARE'.
While cute, none of that is constructive. How about we focus on keeping things both constructive and objective, and if you have further personal issues, you keep it to PMs or move it somewhere more appropriate (though I'm not sure we have an appropriate place for that jazz).
If all of your special tactics are rendered unnecessary by a simple stat selection then the tactics are meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
With that said. Locking an advantage to only work with another separate power active? No. That's heading down the opposite road of creativity and freeform power selection. No need to add more things like that than there already are. Adding an advantage like that to TC in place of going R3? Sure why not.
One, that's irrelevant to the point I made and still not constructive or objective.
For two, you're the one that initially started that particular line of conversation when he asked for further, objective clarification that you've since admitted you don't have.
So it's both irrelevant and incorrect.
Unless you have something more concrete to say that definatively Ranged is at such an obvious advantage that the locking of the advantage in question to just one powerset makes sense at all (doubtful given your previously mentioned admission), I don't see the point in discussing the issue with you (in specific) further. :U
Nevermind that there's already a good case example for a +Defense increase for characters, period (Force Sheathe) that does so already (to my closest approximation, until we get solid numbers on the exact benefit provided by the new Energy Shield advantage), for one point, that also increases energy returns so long as you tap the Block button once every 8 seconds. Meaning it already functionally exists with a second benefit.
I don't see the big deal in unlocking it for Ranged in general, or just maintained powers (which would benefit melee AND ranged).
I'm pretty sure the mods won't let me speculate on that one without an infraction. Note, not the link I wanted to give, but the one least likely to get me in trouble later.
Haha... for all the testing and videos and guides you make, I think yous should have a better understanding of PVE tactics. All i do is PVE, min/max PVE (retarded i know). Stop making hybrid builds with offensive passives + CON and maybe you can learn about tactical positioning to keep you alive. DPS DPS DPS!!! hehe.
In the end it doesn't really matter if it stays in PA or not... you will keep making those videos that help lots of ppl and I will keep making my dps toons and have lots of fun as well. About your reply all I can say is, I should have just kept my mouth shut, why even bother... next time you are on lets do some nemcon runs and have fun. I'll play my way and u play your way. Then only one getting his **** kicked is going to be Destroyer.
Help me help you help us? what? Yeah... something constructive mmmm. Fire all Weapons is too strong in my opinion. It can wipe 10 dummies(33k HP) in the PH in one click every 32 seconds.
So I got off my **** and made a test for it. Min/max PA build:
Int/dex/rec SS with 503int 135dex 68rec all other stats at 10. Targeting Computer in range damage role. Parsed 4 times on a single dummy.
1st test - 9.1k dps
2nd test - 6.7k dps
3rd test - 9.4k dps
4th test - 9.3k dps
How you like them apples, it feels good to contribute hehe... Over powered or working as intended?
so both of you ONLY PVE right?... yea... right :rolleyes:
Yup I'm all PVE ask any one who knows me. I was just PVP-ing till i got most of my SG mates cool power replacers. I have not played a single PVP match after I got all that I wanted. Stop asking me about my builds (inside joke) hehe... just kidding man.
As everyone knows, the best way to test sustained DPS is to spend 20 seconds attacking something. :rolleyes:
4 seconds actually...
edit: I'm too slow for your logic... it took me about 5 minutes to really understand what you meant. I'm not going to stand there and start my parser, attack for 5 seconds, stop parser wait 32 seconds and repeat more than 5 times to get a more accurate test for you. You can do that or just take it for what it is... or not. Either way, where the f... is Mechassassin? hehe
So, you're getting... 9kish average burst DPS for 4 seconds, and then nothing for ~32 seconds? That's 36,000 damage over that entire time span, bringing it's DPS over time down to about 1.1kdps.
I dunno. How does that compete with some of the T4 powers that are similarly shackled with long cooldowns? I won't deny that the burst is somewhat interesting, but I'm also curious how much that's worth on fights that really matter in the long run...
EDIT: Actual average is 8.625k DPS for 34,500 approximate damage and a final total of 1.07kdps between cooldowns provided you can get it to recharge in 32 seconds.
edit: I'm too slow for your logic... it took me about 5 minutes to really understand what you meant. I'm not going to stand there and start my parser, attack for 5 seconds, stop parser wait 32 seconds and repeat more than 5 times to get a more accurate test for you. You can do that or just take it for what it is... or not. Either way, where the f... is Mechassassin? hehe
Well that's what you need to do to find out how much average DPS it does. Or you can just look at the tooltip and factor in your crit and be done with it.
So, you're getting... 9kish average burst DPS for 4 seconds, and then nothing for ~32 seconds? That's 36,000 damage over that entire time span, bringing it's DPS over time down to about 1.1kdps.
I dunno. How does that compete with some of the T4 powers that are similarly shackled with long cooldowns? I won't deny that the burst is somewhat interesting, but I'm also curious how much that's worth on fights that really matter in the long run...
EDIT: Actual average is 8.625k DPS for 34,500 approximate damage and a final total of 1.07kdps between cooldowns provided you can get it to recharge in 32 seconds.
Your math confuses me. This is what i did (so there is some small human error), turn parser on and started attack at the same time. When dummy dies I turn parser off thus giving me the dps for that attack. All other stuff is not important. Its a spike with that much (8.625k dps according to you cause i suck at math) dps that can be activated every 32 seconds(with my test build), hits 10 targets at 50' range. My opinion ids that it is awesome/OP what is yours? And it's not a T4 power...
Well that's what you need to do to find out how much average DPS it does. Or you can just look at the tooltip and factor in your crit and be done with it.
Your math confuses me. This is what i did (so there is some small human error), turn parser on and started attack at the same time. When dummy dies I turn parser off thus giving me the dps for that attack. All other stuff is not important. Its a spike with that much (8.625k dps according to you cause i suck at math) dps that can be activated every 32 seconds(with my test build), hits 10 targets at 50' range. My opinion ids that it is awesome/OP what is yours? And it's not a T4 power...
I don't see where it's too confusing. You only looked at the burst DPS, that is to say, the DPS the power does per activation. That's not the total 'true' DPS of the power (or sustained DPS), just the power you get for that one activation. It then goes on cooldown for a set period (90s base, you got it it down closer to 32s) in which case you can't use it any more. Because of that cooldown, it can afford to have a higher damage during it's activation, because over time you're only using it once per cooldown.
That reduces it's total damage per second, over time, from activation to the time you can fire it again, to ~1.07kdps, or somewhat less or approximate then I can get with the new Eye Beams (Hooray, eye beams!). The burst damage it can do is only significant on fights that don't last all that long to start with (over in 32s from start to finish), and while it is giving you a 1.07kdps increase over that time... that's not really contributing a whole lot when you can do functionally more then that in the same time period running Concussor/Eye/Chest Beam.
The net effect it has isn't that great.
The only reason I suggested measuring it's total net affect against T4 powers is because, afaik, those are the only other powers in the game that are both damage effects, and have cooldowns of similar lengths. You can probably still net some impressive damage off Fury of the Dragon or Unleashed Rage, but the cooldown means that burst damage doesn't account for jack, and that's generally why those powers are considered underperforming (they don't do near enough damage per cooldown to make them worth it).
My unprofessional opinion is that while it bursts high, it's sustained DPS is crap, and nothing more.
EDIT: For PVP concerns... it's also easily shut down by CC. If you don't complete a maintain, it does far less damage, after all.
This is all tested using Soviet Assault's stats/builds from earlier (213CON, 205INT, 166END - note that she's a Tank character first, and DPS second). All powers are Rank 3 (including Concentration and Targeting Computer) for comparison's sake. All numbers are with Concentration stacked to 3 only. This is comparitive damage only, and this note here is specifically designed to point this out.
There are two batteries of tests with two different power setups - one using Power Gauntlet, Micromunitions, and Minigun and the other using Concussor Beams, Eye Beams, and Chest Beam in both the Tank role (Tank/Invulnerability) and the Ranged DPS role (Targeting Computer/Ranged). The former is centered on AoE damage as near as can be accomplished (there is no Hand Slot power for AoE at the moment until Tactical Missles is fixed; I subbed Power Gauntlet in for that here), the latter on single targets. The debuff from Chest Beam is not factored into this. Critical hits are also not factored in (because in all cases Soviet Assault has negligible critical hit damage).
The cooldown for Fire All Weapons in this setup is 56s.
Tank Role-
Power Gauntlet: 714dps
Micromunitions: 466dps
Minigun: 684dps Total - 1864dps
DPS Role-
Power Gauntlet: 1172dps
Micromunitions: 769dps
Minigun: 1128dps Total - 3069dps
Concussor: 1384dps
Eye Beam: 1026dps
Chest Beam: 1794dps Total - 4174dps
Fire All Weapons - 3076dps
CONCLUSION: For burst instances only, Fire All Weapons is comparable to running all the relevant DPS toggles over it's duration. However, on single targets, it falls woefully behind in both sustained DPS and burst DPS over the other options presented to you. Usability may make it an option on multi-target fights, or any fights that have smaller targets that need to be removed quickly.
I think it's perfectly fine as it is, though it could probably use a slight damage reduction (5-10% maybe?) to even things out a bit. Likely not, though. (NOTE: This is made assuming that Tactical Missle's AoE portion will be less then the relevant DPS used in the above statement - until we get a full, working version of that I can't really do more then guesstimate. I don't expect it to be a realistic AoE decrease of approximately more than 30% overall. Still makes things fairly close though, and doesn't change the ST figures any. You can probably cut PG's numbers by 50% to compensate if you want.)
EDIT: Amusing footnote - the switch to Ranged DPS role and from Invulnerability -> Targeting Computer netted only a 40% damage increase on the relevant powers. Why hello there soft cap!
I don't see where it's too confusing. You only looked at the burst DPS, that is to say, the DPS the power does per activation. That's not the total 'true' DPS of the power (or sustained DPS), just the power you get for that one activation. It then goes on cooldown for a set period (90s base, you got it it down closer to 32s) in which case you can't use it any more. Because of that cooldown, it can afford to have a higher damage during it's activation, because over time you're only using it once per cooldown.
That reduces it's total damage per second, over time, from activation to the time you can fire it again, to ~1.07kdps, or somewhat less or approximate then I can get with the new Eye Beams (Hooray, eye beams!). The burst damage it can do is only significant on fights that don't last all that long to start with (over in 32s from start to finish), and while it is giving you a 1.07kdps increase over that time... that's not really contributing a whole lot when you can do functionally more then that in the same time period running Concussor/Eye/Chest Beam.
So if i understand you... on my 6k sustained dps toon if i just add this one power (and move some synergies around) i get 7k sustained dps on a single target. And i can basically kill any 10 mobs (not bosses) every 32 seconds at a safe distance. Sweet...
So if i understand you... on my 6k sustained dps toon if i just add this one power (and move some synergies around) i get 7k sustained dps on a single target. And i can basically kill any 10 mobs (not bosses) every 32 seconds at a safe distance. Sweet...
Not quite. See above.
On single targets, it's not worth the effort over using a dedicated Single Target damage setup already in Power Armor. On AoE, it's at least comparable to what Power Armor can already do by itself, except it has a usability increase.
Difference being that the AoE setup from Power Armor can do it on every fight, and not just every 3rd fight (assuming it takes you 4 seconds to blow up 10 mobs, the next group is going to take you longer without that one power if it's the only power you're using for AoE. Which would be stupid).
There are two batteries of tests with two different power setups - one using Power Gauntlet, Micromunitions, and Minigun and the other using Concussor Beams, Eye Beams, and Chest Beam in both the Tank role (Tank/Invulnerability) and the Ranged DPS role (Targeting Computer/Ranged). The former is centered on AoE damage as near as can be accomplished (there is no Hand Slot power for AoE at the moment until Tactical Missles is fixed; I subbed Power Gauntlet in for that here), the latter on single targets. The debuff from Chest Beam is not factored into this. Critical hits are also not factored in (because in all cases Soviet Assault has negligible critical hit damage).
You know what I love about Power Armor? Two of your "single target" attacks are AOEs. (This makes the couple of spec choices that buff AOEs especially good.)
(Note that Tactical Missiles w/ Advantage is not currently counting as an AOE for specialization purposes.)
You know what I love about Power Armor? Two of your "single target" attacks are AOEs. (This makes the couple of spec choices that buff AOEs especially good.)
(Note that Tactical Missiles w/ Advantage is not currently counting as an AOE for specialization purposes.)
Well, realistically, you can swap them all around if you want. I tried to get as many number grabs as I could, and that's why I ended up taking almost every power option available.
I think you can probably do better then what I have listed, because I left things like Shoulder Launcher out of the equation when I got the dataz.
Also, I keep forgetting Eye Beams technically is an AoE after the first few seconds. >_>
And yeah. Until Tactical Missles is working properly, I'm not really going to try and factor it into things. Which leaves guesstimation (added that part to the conclusion in an edit).
I'm still trying to wrap my brain around Phalanx Defense System. When this came up I suggested having it open to all ranged attacks as a ranged analogue for Elusive Monk and Laser Knight. I was met with some opposition saying that it would be overpowered and imbalanced if it were allowed outside of PA.
So let me get this together. A defensive block advantage that can be activated with three ranged attacks running simultaneously is OK (no one opposed this during this discussion). But having that same capability on other sets that can only run one maintain at a time (due to the lack of the slot system in other sets) is overpowered and imbalanced. Note: In the rare case of toggles like Sparkstorm and lingers like Snowstorm you can sidestep this, I know this.
I'm not following this. Some one help me out here. What am I missing?
Instinct to balance through 'restricted to x sets' no matter how many examples it never works.
Bug: Sword cyclone, spark storm, celestial conduit, conflagration, ego blade frenzy, one hundred hands do not activate overdrive
This is from the powers i tested also including lead tempest, shuriken storm, hurricane, avalanche, storm of arrows, shadow embrace, ebon rift, assault rifle, two gun mojo, lightning storm, lightning arc, telekinetic assault, Gatling gun and eye of the storm which do work with overdrive so those are fine.
Comments
But not entirely worried about setting them on fire, using high explosives on them, firing energy beams, electrocution, ice cold enough to stay solid despite any sign of ambient temperatures (including in the center of a volcano), bullets, edged weapons, hammers swung around one-handed with ease while being larger then sledgehammers, and hitting them hard enough to send them at least fifty feet into the air before landing?
I dunno, I'd have bigger health concerns before Devour Essence started to bother me. There's a clear non-lethality point with it that's not really found in a lot of other sets.
Grats on keeping agro off of us (don't remember your toon's name). Now try his dogs (tele/quij/mega d/jack fool/ bronzy/etc) with a range toon on an offensive passive without any CON/tank just for fun, then tell me about tactics... Tanking kiga is easy mode with any powers not just 2. And why are you defending a point that u know is wrong? The point of doing the highest dps possible is to get the loots for yourself/team, tanking kiga with 2 buttons does not get you the loot against most teams especially against ours. So my point again was(forgot already) don't make that block adv for all range because range is awesome... and also make targeting computer more awesome please. Or do it... it doesn't really matter anyways
Force Sheathe is pretty popular, I hear...
And knockback always circles back from being horrible to being hilarious because I imagine all the bad guys landing on their keys.
Force Sheath, Voracious Darkness, Laser Knight, Elusive Monk are all the good Block Enhancer advantages.
However, a couple of the non-advantaged options aren't half bad. Retaliation for instance, which effectively turns your block into an ONH damage boost.
This has come to mind on more than one occasion:
"Hey look, some guys are engaged in nothing more offensive than loitering in that parking lot over there."
*revs up the chiansaw*
"I likes it when the blood flies..."
It was more a general jab at 'heroic' powersets anyway. At least in the lower levels of any superhero game, you're essentially attacking +1 (hopefully) human mooks who while good enough to be a threat requiring superheroic assistance, are still human at the end of the day and have no real advantages other then being particularly aggressive or nasty individuals. Some of them might border on low levels of Charls Atlas superpowers, but considering the things levied against them that advantage isn't going to spare them a lengthy hospital stay or worse in reality.
Superheroism by definition has unrealistic expectations of lethality, and I don't necessarily think a life-essence drain is the most obvious example of that (though it does rate, it's just not the most immediately obvious issue mostly due to how rare it shows up in superpowered fiction; It's something you see more on darker, edgier anti-heroes or some particular villians).
I've done all of that before which is exactly why I don't buy the ranged greater than melee argument. And me asking for people to qualify that stance with actual numbers and such and getting nothing but some questionable shots at me instead isn't helping.
Since this keeps coming up, I don't use CON for health. I use it for scaling things that go with CON, usually Nimble Mind. Not that it even matters or is germane to the question people keep sidestepping.
Range greater than melee and therefore doesn't deserve an analogous option. OK, why? Explain why and explain why running 3 toggles simultaneously is OK but using the same thing with oh..I don't know...snowstorm by itself is overpowered and imbalanced. That's the question that keeps getting avoided. Saying "durr hurr, you use CON" isn't answering it.
I personally start thinking of this guy.
Or this one.
I could go on. But, those are the first two immediately obvious ones to me.
EDIT: Specifically, Morbius has been shown on occasion to drain blood through his hands. Though it varies a LOT based on medium.
Not going to post numbers... i'm not that king of person. I AM LAZY AND NOT a name that rhymes with FALI". Also never said anything about range > melee or about 3 toggles. I said... you know what I don't remember what i said now. But the fact that u use con (for whatever reason) + offensive passives in hybrid role is why u can't see the need for some tactics. But keep coming with examples (tanking kigs) that do not have anything to do with my point about tactics. Ah, I remember now... keep that block adv for PA or not whatever. And give target computer some love please, any love...
So nothing objective, just 'UR BAD BECUZ IM GUD AND SEZ U ARE'.
While cute, none of that is constructive. How about we focus on keeping things both constructive and objective, and if you have further personal issues, you keep it to PMs or move it somewhere more appropriate (though I'm not sure we have an appropriate place for that jazz).
He started it mommmmm... more pop tarts please.
...Where does she even keep those!?
If all of your special tactics are rendered unnecessary by a simple stat selection then the tactics are meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
With that said. Locking an advantage to only work with another separate power active? No. That's heading down the opposite road of creativity and freeform power selection. No need to add more things like that than there already are. Adding an advantage like that to TC in place of going R3? Sure why not.
LOL
One, that's irrelevant to the point I made and still not constructive or objective.
For two, you're the one that initially started that particular line of conversation when he asked for further, objective clarification that you've since admitted you don't have.
So it's both irrelevant and incorrect.
Unless you have something more concrete to say that definatively Ranged is at such an obvious advantage that the locking of the advantage in question to just one powerset makes sense at all (doubtful given your previously mentioned admission), I don't see the point in discussing the issue with you (in specific) further. :U
Nevermind that there's already a good case example for a +Defense increase for characters, period (Force Sheathe) that does so already (to my closest approximation, until we get solid numbers on the exact benefit provided by the new Energy Shield advantage), for one point, that also increases energy returns so long as you tap the Block button once every 8 seconds. Meaning it already functionally exists with a second benefit.
I don't see the big deal in unlocking it for Ranged in general, or just maintained powers (which would benefit melee AND ranged).
http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=144965
http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=147567
so both of you ONLY PVE right?... yea... right :rolleyes:
So I got off my **** and made a test for it. Min/max PA build:
Int/dex/rec SS with 503int 135dex 68rec all other stats at 10. Targeting Computer in range damage role. Parsed 4 times on a single dummy.
1st test - 9.1k dps
2nd test - 6.7k dps
3rd test - 9.4k dps
4th test - 9.3k dps
How you like them apples, it feels good to contribute hehe... Over powered or working as intended?
Yup I'm all PVE ask any one who knows me. I was just PVP-ing till i got most of my SG mates cool power replacers. I have not played a single PVP match after I got all that I wanted. Stop asking me about my builds (inside joke) hehe... just kidding man.
If you don't mind my asking, what caused that anomaly? Or is that just a typo?
2nd test only had 4 crits the rest had 6-7 crits...
4 seconds actually...
edit: I'm too slow for your logic... it took me about 5 minutes to really understand what you meant. I'm not going to stand there and start my parser, attack for 5 seconds, stop parser wait 32 seconds and repeat more than 5 times to get a more accurate test for you. You can do that or just take it for what it is... or not. Either way, where the f... is Mechassassin? hehe
So, you're getting... 9kish average burst DPS for 4 seconds, and then nothing for ~32 seconds? That's 36,000 damage over that entire time span, bringing it's DPS over time down to about 1.1kdps.
I dunno. How does that compete with some of the T4 powers that are similarly shackled with long cooldowns? I won't deny that the burst is somewhat interesting, but I'm also curious how much that's worth on fights that really matter in the long run...
EDIT: Actual average is 8.625k DPS for 34,500 approximate damage and a final total of 1.07kdps between cooldowns provided you can get it to recharge in 32 seconds.
Well that's what you need to do to find out how much average DPS it does. Or you can just look at the tooltip and factor in your crit and be done with it.
Your math confuses me. This is what i did (so there is some small human error), turn parser on and started attack at the same time. When dummy dies I turn parser off thus giving me the dps for that attack. All other stuff is not important. Its a spike with that much (8.625k dps according to you cause i suck at math) dps that can be activated every 32 seconds(with my test build), hits 10 targets at 50' range. My opinion ids that it is awesome/OP what is yours? And it's not a T4 power...
I'm using a parser... math is my enemy.
I don't see where it's too confusing. You only looked at the burst DPS, that is to say, the DPS the power does per activation. That's not the total 'true' DPS of the power (or sustained DPS), just the power you get for that one activation. It then goes on cooldown for a set period (90s base, you got it it down closer to 32s) in which case you can't use it any more. Because of that cooldown, it can afford to have a higher damage during it's activation, because over time you're only using it once per cooldown.
That reduces it's total damage per second, over time, from activation to the time you can fire it again, to ~1.07kdps, or somewhat less or approximate then I can get with the new Eye Beams (Hooray, eye beams!). The burst damage it can do is only significant on fights that don't last all that long to start with (over in 32s from start to finish), and while it is giving you a 1.07kdps increase over that time... that's not really contributing a whole lot when you can do functionally more then that in the same time period running Concussor/Eye/Chest Beam.
The net effect it has isn't that great.
The only reason I suggested measuring it's total net affect against T4 powers is because, afaik, those are the only other powers in the game that are both damage effects, and have cooldowns of similar lengths. You can probably still net some impressive damage off Fury of the Dragon or Unleashed Rage, but the cooldown means that burst damage doesn't account for jack, and that's generally why those powers are considered underperforming (they don't do near enough damage per cooldown to make them worth it).
My unprofessional opinion is that while it bursts high, it's sustained DPS is crap, and nothing more.
EDIT: For PVP concerns... it's also easily shut down by CC. If you don't complete a maintain, it does far less damage, after all.
There are two batteries of tests with two different power setups - one using Power Gauntlet, Micromunitions, and Minigun and the other using Concussor Beams, Eye Beams, and Chest Beam in both the Tank role (Tank/Invulnerability) and the Ranged DPS role (Targeting Computer/Ranged). The former is centered on AoE damage as near as can be accomplished (there is no Hand Slot power for AoE at the moment until Tactical Missles is fixed; I subbed Power Gauntlet in for that here), the latter on single targets. The debuff from Chest Beam is not factored into this. Critical hits are also not factored in (because in all cases Soviet Assault has negligible critical hit damage).
The cooldown for Fire All Weapons in this setup is 56s.
Tank Role-
Power Gauntlet: 714dps
Micromunitions: 466dps
Minigun: 684dps
Total - 1864dps
Concussor: 838dps
Eye Beam: 620dps
Chest Beam: 1086dps
Total - 2544dps
Fire All Weapons - 1862dps
DPS Role-
Power Gauntlet: 1172dps
Micromunitions: 769dps
Minigun: 1128dps
Total - 3069dps
Concussor: 1384dps
Eye Beam: 1026dps
Chest Beam: 1794dps
Total - 4174dps
Fire All Weapons - 3076dps
CONCLUSION: For burst instances only, Fire All Weapons is comparable to running all the relevant DPS toggles over it's duration. However, on single targets, it falls woefully behind in both sustained DPS and burst DPS over the other options presented to you. Usability may make it an option on multi-target fights, or any fights that have smaller targets that need to be removed quickly.
I think it's perfectly fine as it is, though it could probably use a slight damage reduction (5-10% maybe?) to even things out a bit. Likely not, though. (NOTE: This is made assuming that Tactical Missle's AoE portion will be less then the relevant DPS used in the above statement - until we get a full, working version of that I can't really do more then guesstimate. I don't expect it to be a realistic AoE decrease of approximately more than 30% overall. Still makes things fairly close though, and doesn't change the ST figures any. You can probably cut PG's numbers by 50% to compensate if you want.)
EDIT: Amusing footnote - the switch to Ranged DPS role and from Invulnerability -> Targeting Computer netted only a 40% damage increase on the relevant powers. Why hello there soft cap!
So if i understand you... on my 6k sustained dps toon if i just add this one power (and move some synergies around) i get 7k sustained dps on a single target. And i can basically kill any 10 mobs (not bosses) every 32 seconds at a safe distance. Sweet...
Not quite. See above.
On single targets, it's not worth the effort over using a dedicated Single Target damage setup already in Power Armor. On AoE, it's at least comparable to what Power Armor can already do by itself, except it has a usability increase.
Difference being that the AoE setup from Power Armor can do it on every fight, and not just every 3rd fight (assuming it takes you 4 seconds to blow up 10 mobs, the next group is going to take you longer without that one power if it's the only power you're using for AoE. Which would be stupid).
You know what I love about Power Armor? Two of your "single target" attacks are AOEs. (This makes the couple of spec choices that buff AOEs especially good.)
(Note that Tactical Missiles w/ Advantage is not currently counting as an AOE for specialization purposes.)
Well, realistically, you can swap them all around if you want. I tried to get as many number grabs as I could, and that's why I ended up taking almost every power option available.
I think you can probably do better then what I have listed, because I left things like Shoulder Launcher out of the equation when I got the dataz.
Also, I keep forgetting Eye Beams technically is an AoE after the first few seconds. >_>
And yeah. Until Tactical Missles is working properly, I'm not really going to try and factor it into things. Which leaves guesstimation (added that part to the conclusion in an edit).
Instinct to balance through 'restricted to x sets' no matter how many examples it never works.
This is from the powers i tested also including lead tempest, shuriken storm, hurricane, avalanche, storm of arrows, shadow embrace, ebon rift, assault rifle, two gun mojo, lightning storm, lightning arc, telekinetic assault, Gatling gun and eye of the storm which do work with overdrive so those are fine.
It is currently the most energy hungry ranged cone maintain, and I was wondering if something can be done about that.
THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Considering the thing roots you anyway...
With the Circle you get an infinite maintain.