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Philosophical Debate: Would you consider this an “exploit”?

People cry foul all the time about other peoples’ builds. I used to. But then I realized that every player I encountered who got to the endgame had gotten there a different way, learning different tricks, using different tools, and sometimes with a bit of ingenuity that shines and becomes popular among the community. Part of being a member of this community, in fact, is the wealth of information which emerges about every possible build. Lots of good info.

So I try not to judge questionable tactics and instead treat them as inventions which should be tested to see if the allow fair play.

I’ve seen varied and impressive builds. But in combat I have encountered a phenomenon that I’m up in the air about. So I’d like your input and maybe some insight into what you consider “fair play,” and what you consider an “exploit,” particularly with respect to how you interpret the rules or lack thereof as you know them to exist.

Here’s the scenario. Let’s say that there’s a doff that causes the activation of Auxiliary Power to Structural Integrity (a2s) to placate your next attacker. And let’s say that you have acquired traits/consoles/boosts which allowed you to keep a2s on in lowest possible cool down, such that it could placate an attacker twice in the span of 10-12 seconds (maybe faster). Fair enough, I suppose, the player learned a way to placate through an obscure combination. There’s still enough time to get attacks in, so if you can’t manage to do that, you’ve been bested. So if it is possible to get past the placates it’s fair game? Right?

But then let’s put this in a team vs team environment. Let’s say a2s player’s build got popular among players in his fleet, and when teaming together they all roll into battle as a tightly knit group, never far apart, all with powerful cannon loadouts with pen, all capable of activating a2s nearly continuously, likely set to a macro so that the player doesn’t even bother to time a2s while lining up shots with his teammates.

I have encountered this particular cloud of confusion and doom. Flying into the ball of ships begins when you select your first target. You fly into the fray and -bam—bam— you get two shots off, but suddenly you’ve been placated and auto select another target as the other player zips off. You try to fire at that one. Placate; new target. You try to fire. Placate; new target. And it doesn’t end until you get cannoned to death from behind by three members of the team. In fact, the team gets more proficient at maintaining its placate ball the longer the match goes. You attack, get a few shots off, get placates 5 times, and you die.

So, what do you think about the logical conclusion of the a2s/placate combination with relation to 1v1 or 5v5 or battlezone play? Is this fair play? Is it an exploit? I’m curious what you think, whether you PvP or not, and based on what you’ve seen in the larger gamersphere.
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Comments

  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 44,790 Arc User
    That is a very clever tactic honestly. Although the duration of the placate could be mitigated through other means. Sci Team should be able to clear the placate, I think there are ways to resist placate, and ways to decrease the duration of a placate you recieve.

    In a way, PvP, and this is coming from a PvEer, is an arms race. One side figures out the next big killer build, the other figures out how to counter it. We've seen similar things in the past with meta builds.

    There was a time where Escorts were the top DPS ships in the game, hence why some called it Escorts Online back in the day.
    There was a time where Aux2Batt builds were the meta, and any ship that could support them were the go to ship.
    Right now, we're still in a Cruiser/FAW phase I believe. Anything and everything that can augment Beam Fire at Will.
    There are even some really nasty Gravity Well builds out there too that can ruin someone's day.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
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  • mattjohnsonvamattjohnsonva Member Posts: 4,705 Arc User
    Blame Cryptic for introducing ridiculous mechanics that can be more or less constantly employed. In our fleet that DOFF is not allowed in Fleet PvP but sadly it's just another reason many don't bother with arenas. If you must go up against them then there are attacks that don't really care about placate, AoE, Sci spam and of course you can always do exactly the same. It's not an exploit, but it is poor game design.
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 6,115 Arc User
    edited December 2017
    Wrestling ref: "I'll allow it!"

    Random PUG vs. coordinated team seems like a recipe for slaughter as long as the team has a half-decent strategy of some kind.

    Some strategies might feel more "cheap" than others, but your pack of lone wolf puggies is going to be blowing up good either way.
  • nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,629 Arc User
    I have a carrier build that uses this. Is it cheese? A little I suppose, but it can be overcome. The first time I encountered the build I managed to defeat the guy by being careful and taking my time.
    Tza0PEl.png
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 4,756 Arc User
    Well...what they are doing is not being very conducive to fair play .... but they are not using the game program in a way that it was not meant to be used.

    The Devs will have to step in and decide on how to apply game rules to this..and if it needs to be changed.

    I will note that this is not the first time someone has mentioned a problem with this placate doff in the forums.
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  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 6,677 Arc User
    Not this again. A2SIF has a 15 second global, AT BEST you can get it to go off every 15 seconds.

    There are ways out of this...like pop an invul ability and cloak. If you are in a zip escort, just outrun them until the effects wear off. Use PBAOE to ruin their day. Have high controlX so the placate basically does nothing. PvP is a game of rock, papper, scissor, lizard, spock. Some things win vs other things. There are just things that beat other things and get beaten by these different other things. If you can't figure out a way to deal with things, than PvP ain't for you.
  • kyle223catkyle223cat Member Posts: 559 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Not this again. A2SIF has a 15 second global, AT BEST you can get it to go off every 15 seconds.

    There are ways out of this...like pop an invul ability and cloak. If you are in a zip escort, just outrun them until the effects wear off. Use PBAOE to ruin their day. Have high controlX so the placate basically does nothing. PvP is a game of rock, papper, scissor, lizard, spock. Some things win vs other things. There are just things that beat other things and get beaten by these different other things. If you can't figure out a way to deal with things, than PvP ain't for you.

    Aux2SIF has a 10 second global cooldown.
    star-trek-enterprise-animated-gif-33.gif
  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 6,677 Arc User
    kyle223cat wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Not this again. A2SIF has a 15 second global, AT BEST you can get it to go off every 15 seconds.

    There are ways out of this...like pop an invul ability and cloak. If you are in a zip escort, just outrun them until the effects wear off. Use PBAOE to ruin their day. Have high controlX so the placate basically does nothing. PvP is a game of rock, papper, scissor, lizard, spock. Some things win vs other things. There are just things that beat other things and get beaten by these different other things. If you can't figure out a way to deal with things, than PvP ain't for you.

    Aux2SIF has a 10 second global cooldown.

    Opps. You are right. Also for some reason I was thinking of A2D with 30 second normal...which is still wrong as that is also a 10 second global which for some reason I keep thinking is 15. But yeah error on my part on that. Still same dealie.
  • baudlbaudl Member Posts: 3,973 Arc User
    Blame Cryptic for introducing ridiculous mechanics that can be more or less constantly employed. In our fleet that DOFF is not allowed in Fleet PvP but sadly it's just another reason many don't bother with arenas. If you must go up against them then there are attacks that don't really care about placate, AoE, Sci spam and of course you can always do exactly the same. It's not an exploit, but it is poor game design.

    agreed. definitely not an exploit, but through the introduction of such mechanics, PVP has become something that needs deep knowledge of these ridiculous game mechanics to keep up and ontop of that, they are ever changing. For me it has become too complex or time consuming, which would require me to invest a lot more time into the game than what I would ever like to invest.
    As I have mentioned many times before, this is the main reason why PVP in this game is dead (to me). Should they ever go down the route of premade builds and ships for PVP scenarios that incorporate some PVE elements, I'd try it out.
    Go pro or go home
  • postinggumpostinggum Member Posts: 1,109 Arc User
    Maybe you can hit them with disables before they hit you with placate, there are a bunch of things with disable, then thrown in some OP drain, so even when they are active they aren't really able to do much.

    Either use their proximity against them or apply some aggressive TBR.
  • sophlogimosophlogimo Member Posts: 6,380 Arc User
    It is not an exploit, most definitely not. However, it could be taken as a guide on how to NOT use STO: For PvP.
    DPS derives from gear, and gear alone.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,604 Arc User
    the very definition of an exploit is the usage of an unintended design flaw in something for the sole use of taking advantage of it and reaping full rewards while disadvantaging other consumers who are not taking advantage of it. however some people colour the view of a stright up exloit with their opinion and the human aspect will always have those who think it isn't an exploit (when in reality it is) and those who do think it is an exploit with this tug of war in between, none of that really matters if it is unintended and needs to be looked into.

    STO has a few exploits in the game that Cryptic havent done anything about like the jumping mechanic in the competitive winter race for example or the blantant use of the ignore feature as an abuse tool and the abuse in the last player waving to be ready for the fastest game on ice race gets to hit the track leaving the original player standing around until they can get into the race at a later point.

    no game is free of these pesky exploits unfortunately as each new patch or content release by have such a thing, that is the risk that is ran.
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  • vetteguy904vetteguy904 Member Posts: 2,588 Arc User
    I will agree with the above statement that it is a brillinat tactic. that said, in my experience, MOST of that type of thing in this game has always been Placate for 10s (1/2 vs player) with immunity for next XX seconds)
    I bolded the last because that's the mechanic that prevents exactly the scenario the OP describes. if the mechanic has that in the description,and it's not working IMHO, it's an exploit. if it's NOT in the power description, then it's an oversight. if the Devs fix it or not is up to the devs. I won't say "it's not fair". lifes not fair.
    leck2.gif

  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 7,700 Arc User
    I don't consider anything to be an "exploit." It's just scrub whine to call things "unfair."

    It's the devs' business and only the devs' business to decide how the game is supposed to work. Players can offer opinions, but don't get to make rules. If the devs think something should work differently, they'll change it. Otherwise, what's in the game is what's in the game.
  • disqord#9557 disqord Member Posts: 436 Arc User
    Is it an exploit? No.
    Is it unbalanced, unfair, and generally unfun to fight? Yes.
  • postinggumpostinggum Member Posts: 1,109 Arc User
    If you had two teams with everyone placating 40% of the time, plus FBP spamming and stacking other 'you can barely get me tactics' the match would be a grind.
  • djf021djf021 Member Posts: 1,227 Arc User
    edited December 2017
    warpangel wrote: »
    I don't consider anything to be an "exploit." It's just scrub whine to call things "unfair."

    It's the devs' business and only the devs' business to decide how the game is supposed to work. Players can offer opinions, but don't get to make rules. If the devs think something should work differently, they'll change it. Otherwise, what's in the game is what's in the game.

    I tend to agree. Maybe I'm one of those "people who say an exploit isn't an exploit when it really is", but I tend to think if the game allows it, it should be fair game. Others can use it just as much as I can. If the devs don't want it to work that way, they'll change something.
    But if I find out I can do something that gives me an edge that other people don't know about, you can bet I'll use it.
    And I don't even PVP.
    Post edited by djf021 on
    C4117709-1498929112732780large.jpg

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  • echattyechatty Member Posts: 3,425 Arc User
    djf021 wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    I don't consider anything to be an "exploit." It's just scrub whine to call things "unfair."

    It's the devs' business and only the devs' business to decide how the game is supposed to work. Players can offer opinions, but don't get to make rules. If the devs think something should work differently, they'll change it. Otherwise, what's in the game is what's in the game.

    I tend to agree. Maybe I'm one of those "people who say an exploit isn't an exploit when it really is", but I tend to think if the game allows it, it should be fair game. Others can use it just as much as I can. If the devs don't want it to work that way, they'll change something.
    But if I find out I can do something that gives me an edge that other people don't know about, you can bet I'll use it.
    And I don't even PVP.

    This. I don't PvP either, but if I can use an exploit playing the parts I play? Sure, I'll use it as long as the devs allow it. Will I moan and complain if they decide to nerf said exploit? No. I'll simply adapt and go on.
    Now a LTS and loving it.

    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.

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  • djf021djf021 Member Posts: 1,227 Arc User
    echatty wrote: »
    djf021 wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    I don't consider anything to be an "exploit." It's just scrub whine to call things "unfair."

    It's the devs' business and only the devs' business to decide how the game is supposed to work. Players can offer opinions, but don't get to make rules. If the devs think something should work differently, they'll change it. Otherwise, what's in the game is what's in the game.

    I tend to agree. Maybe I'm one of those "people who say an exploit isn't an exploit when it really is", but I tend to think if the game allows it, it should be fair game. Others can use it just as much as I can. If the devs don't want it to work that way, they'll change something.
    But if I find out I can do something that gives me an edge that other people don't know about, you can bet I'll use it.
    And I don't even PVP.

    I'll simply adapt and go on.

    Exactly.
    C4117709-1498929112732780large.jpg

    Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference.
    -Captain James T. Kirk
  • gothicsharkgothicshark Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited January 1
    placate combination with relation to 1v1 or 5v5 or battlezone play? Is this fair play? Is it an exploit?

    Never been a fan of Crowd control in a PVP enviroment in the first place, as it eliminates skill as a deciding factor.

    Is it an exploit, possibly. Is it something that should be nerfed for everyone in the community. No. as I have said in the past on many games, powers and abilities in PVE should not work the same in PVP, crowd control being one which should never be aimed at the player. Stun locks kill the game.

    ---

    And I should say, back in the day I used the hell out of CC in WOW pvp. I also realize it's why people stop having fun and become angry. PVP should be one sided, but in that it's one sided to the skilled player, not the one with the best CC.
  • patrickngopatrickngo Member Posts: 9,137 Arc User
    People cry foul all the time about other peoples’ builds. I used to. But then I realized that every player I encountered who got to the endgame had gotten there a different way, learning different tricks, using different tools, and sometimes with a bit of ingenuity that shines and becomes popular among the community. Part of being a member of this community, in fact, is the wealth of information which emerges about every possible build. Lots of good info.

    So I try not to judge questionable tactics and instead treat them as inventions which should be tested to see if the allow fair play.

    I’ve seen varied and impressive builds. But in combat I have encountered a phenomenon that I’m up in the air about. So I’d like your input and maybe some insight into what you consider “fair play,” and what you consider an “exploit,” particularly with respect to how you interpret the rules or lack thereof as you know them to exist.

    Here’s the scenario. Let’s say that there’s a doff that causes the activation of Auxiliary Power to Structural Integrity (a2s) to placate your next attacker. And let’s say that you have acquired traits/consoles/boosts which allowed you to keep a2s on in lowest possible cool down, such that it could placate an attacker twice in the span of 10-12 seconds (maybe faster). Fair enough, I suppose, the player learned a way to placate through an obscure combination. There’s still enough time to get attacks in, so if you can’t manage to do that, you’ve been bested. So if it is possible to get past the placates it’s fair game? Right?

    But then let’s put this in a team vs team environment. Let’s say a2s player’s build got popular among players in his fleet, and when teaming together they all roll into battle as a tightly knit group, never far apart, all with powerful cannon loadouts with pen, all capable of activating a2s nearly continuously, likely set to a macro so that the player doesn’t even bother to time a2s while lining up shots with his teammates.

    I have encountered this particular cloud of confusion and doom. Flying into the ball of ships begins when you select your first target. You fly into the fray and -bam—bam— you get two shots off, but suddenly you’ve been placated and auto select another target as the other player zips off. You try to fire at that one. Placate; new target. You try to fire. Placate; new target. And it doesn’t end until you get cannoned to death from behind by three members of the team. In fact, the team gets more proficient at maintaining its placate ball the longer the match goes. You attack, get a few shots off, get placates 5 times, and you die.

    So, what do you think about the logical conclusion of the a2s/placate combination with relation to 1v1 or 5v5 or battlezone play? Is this fair play? Is it an exploit? I’m curious what you think, whether you PvP or not, and based on what you’ve seen in the larger gamersphere.

    is it an 'exploit'? no. But it does work to the core intent of designing something LIKE THAT in a game that includes PvP. It helps to push players away from PvP, and thus, fulfills its core intent.
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  • bossheisenbergbossheisenberg Member Posts: 479 Arc User
    People cry foul all the time about other peoples’ builds. I used to. But then I realized that every player I encountered who got to the endgame had gotten there a different way, learning different tricks, using different tools, and sometimes with a bit of ingenuity that shines and becomes popular among the community. Part of being a member of this community, in fact, is the wealth of information which emerges about every possible build. Lots of good info.

    So I try not to judge questionable tactics and instead treat them as inventions which should be tested to see if the allow fair play.

    I’ve seen varied and impressive builds. But in combat I have encountered a phenomenon that I’m up in the air about. So I’d like your input and maybe some insight into what you consider “fair play,” and what you consider an “exploit,” particularly with respect to how you interpret the rules or lack thereof as you know them to exist.

    Here’s the scenario. Let’s say that there’s a doff that causes the activation of Auxiliary Power to Structural Integrity (a2s) to placate your next attacker. And let’s say that you have acquired traits/consoles/boosts which allowed you to keep a2s on in lowest possible cool down, such that it could placate an attacker twice in the span of 10-12 seconds (maybe faster). Fair enough, I suppose, the player learned a way to placate through an obscure combination. There’s still enough time to get attacks in, so if you can’t manage to do that, you’ve been bested. So if it is possible to get past the placates it’s fair game? Right?

    But then let’s put this in a team vs team environment. Let’s say a2s player’s build got popular among players in his fleet, and when teaming together they all roll into battle as a tightly knit group, never far apart, all with powerful cannon loadouts with pen, all capable of activating a2s nearly continuously, likely set to a macro so that the player doesn’t even bother to time a2s while lining up shots with his teammates.

    I have encountered this particular cloud of confusion and doom. Flying into the ball of ships begins when you select your first target. You fly into the fray and -bam—bam— you get two shots off, but suddenly you’ve been placated and auto select another target as the other player zips off. You try to fire at that one. Placate; new target. You try to fire. Placate; new target. And it doesn’t end until you get cannoned to death from behind by three members of the team. In fact, the team gets more proficient at maintaining its placate ball the longer the match goes. You attack, get a few shots off, get placates 5 times, and you die.

    So, what do you think about the logical conclusion of the a2s/placate combination with relation to 1v1 or 5v5 or battlezone play? Is this fair play? Is it an exploit? I’m curious what you think, whether you PvP or not, and based on what you’ve seen in the larger gamersphere.

    That Krenim Aux2SIF doff is not the only placate in the game. I believe one of the miracle worker abilities placates AND confuses. There's that polaron rep weapon that has a placate proc, new breen winter ship has a placate console, the Miradorn raider console placates, etc. I think it's one of the few means of defense for smaller ships that can't absorb that much damage.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 44,790 Arc User
    The Plesh Tral console is no different than the Plesh Brek one that's been in game for a few years now, other than it now has a passive like most T6 consoles. The T5 variant was just the clicky.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • kiralynkiralyn Member Posts: 1,079 Arc User
    Sounds like "pvp is annoying" and "pug vs coordinated team in pvp = slaughter", not "exploit" /shrug


    (also sounds like why some MMO's pvp systems introduced diminishing returns to crowd control abilities in PvP. Because folks have always been annoyed at being stunlocked/chain-feared/etc in battlegrounds.)
  • admrenlarreckadmrenlarreck Member Posts: 2,041 Arc User
    You go into PVP and expect fair play?

    No such thing in this game.
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 44,790 Arc User
    You go into PVP and expect fair play?

    No such thing in this game.

    No such thing in WoW either.
    My experience with two Death Knights doing the "Get Over Here" one after another.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • vampeiyrevampeiyre Member Posts: 561 Arc User
    As an Engineer who uses the ASIF placate DOFF with the Prevailing Fortified engine in PvP all the time, I'll give you my perspective on it:

    I notice the only people you hear crying about this in Ker'rat or an Arena match are Tac officers, usually Romulan Tac officers, who are irritated that there is finally a fair counter to their shield and armor-penetrating alpha strikes. They apparently don't have a problem thinking their attacks should ignore shields, armor, and resists though. Funny, that.

    Does that answer you question sufficiently? One "fair" imbalanced game mechanic will always beget another equal opposite, so be careful what crutch you decide to lean on, it will eventually get kicked out from under you.
    "I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am."
  • captainwellscaptainwells Member Posts: 411 Arc User
    Here’s the scenario............Is this fair play? Is it an exploit?

    I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you generally wish to know a variety of opinions over the situation that you've faced. Honestly, I'm just not that good at figuring out the technical nitty gritty of battle tactics for pvp stuff (me being here primarily for the rpg story aspects), so I applaud any group of gamers who diligently worked to discover a way to dominate, abuse, and/or crush their opponents. I mean that is the whole point isn't it?

    I often find those who cry foul ball over effective techniques a bit curious. Would they not have done the very same thing as their skilled opponents had they themselves uncovered such a decent tactic or are they suggesting that anonymous gamers dispersed across the entire world should all hold with some unknown Marquess of Queensberry-style rules to avoid succeeding?



  • usskentuckyusskentucky Member Posts: 402 Arc User
    Thanks for the feedback everyone! Seems to be the consensus that there is no way to cheat at the game unless an item/ability is officially broken and acknowledged by the devs as such. I’ve always held off on things like the dyson rep shield refrequencers, tholian sticky web, and these a2s doffs because they can be used to kill a player without the player really having a chance to fight back. It must be a very vocal minority of players pushing for limitations to what is considered “fair play.” I will gladly stop handicapping myself.
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