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Philosophical Debate: Would you consider this an “exploit”?
usskentucky
Member Posts: 402 Arc User
People cry foul all the time about other peoples’ builds. I used to. But then I realized that every player I encountered who got to the endgame had gotten there a different way, learning different tricks, using different tools, and sometimes with a bit of ingenuity that shines and becomes popular among the community. Part of being a member of this community, in fact, is the wealth of information which emerges about every possible build. Lots of good info.
So I try not to judge questionable tactics and instead treat them as inventions which should be tested to see if the allow fair play.
I’ve seen varied and impressive builds. But in combat I have encountered a phenomenon that I’m up in the air about. So I’d like your input and maybe some insight into what you consider “fair play,” and what you consider an “exploit,” particularly with respect to how you interpret the rules or lack thereof as you know them to exist.
Here’s the scenario. Let’s say that there’s a doff that causes the activation of Auxiliary Power to Structural Integrity (a2s) to placate your next attacker. And let’s say that you have acquired traits/consoles/boosts which allowed you to keep a2s on in lowest possible cool down, such that it could placate an attacker twice in the span of 10-12 seconds (maybe faster). Fair enough, I suppose, the player learned a way to placate through an obscure combination. There’s still enough time to get attacks in, so if you can’t manage to do that, you’ve been bested. So if it is possible to get past the placates it’s fair game? Right?
But then let’s put this in a team vs team environment. Let’s say a2s player’s build got popular among players in his fleet, and when teaming together they all roll into battle as a tightly knit group, never far apart, all with powerful cannon loadouts with pen, all capable of activating a2s nearly continuously, likely set to a macro so that the player doesn’t even bother to time a2s while lining up shots with his teammates.
I have encountered this particular cloud of confusion and doom. Flying into the ball of ships begins when you select your first target. You fly into the fray and -bam—bam— you get two shots off, but suddenly you’ve been placated and auto select another target as the other player zips off. You try to fire at that one. Placate; new target. You try to fire. Placate; new target. And it doesn’t end until you get cannoned to death from behind by three members of the team. In fact, the team gets more proficient at maintaining its placate ball the longer the match goes. You attack, get a few shots off, get placates 5 times, and you die.
So, what do you think about the logical conclusion of the a2s/placate combination with relation to 1v1 or 5v5 or battlezone play? Is this fair play? Is it an exploit? I’m curious what you think, whether you PvP or not, and based on what you’ve seen in the larger gamersphere.
So I try not to judge questionable tactics and instead treat them as inventions which should be tested to see if the allow fair play.
I’ve seen varied and impressive builds. But in combat I have encountered a phenomenon that I’m up in the air about. So I’d like your input and maybe some insight into what you consider “fair play,” and what you consider an “exploit,” particularly with respect to how you interpret the rules or lack thereof as you know them to exist.
Here’s the scenario. Let’s say that there’s a doff that causes the activation of Auxiliary Power to Structural Integrity (a2s) to placate your next attacker. And let’s say that you have acquired traits/consoles/boosts which allowed you to keep a2s on in lowest possible cool down, such that it could placate an attacker twice in the span of 10-12 seconds (maybe faster). Fair enough, I suppose, the player learned a way to placate through an obscure combination. There’s still enough time to get attacks in, so if you can’t manage to do that, you’ve been bested. So if it is possible to get past the placates it’s fair game? Right?
But then let’s put this in a team vs team environment. Let’s say a2s player’s build got popular among players in his fleet, and when teaming together they all roll into battle as a tightly knit group, never far apart, all with powerful cannon loadouts with pen, all capable of activating a2s nearly continuously, likely set to a macro so that the player doesn’t even bother to time a2s while lining up shots with his teammates.
I have encountered this particular cloud of confusion and doom. Flying into the ball of ships begins when you select your first target. You fly into the fray and -bam—bam— you get two shots off, but suddenly you’ve been placated and auto select another target as the other player zips off. You try to fire at that one. Placate; new target. You try to fire. Placate; new target. And it doesn’t end until you get cannoned to death from behind by three members of the team. In fact, the team gets more proficient at maintaining its placate ball the longer the match goes. You attack, get a few shots off, get placates 5 times, and you die.
So, what do you think about the logical conclusion of the a2s/placate combination with relation to 1v1 or 5v5 or battlezone play? Is this fair play? Is it an exploit? I’m curious what you think, whether you PvP or not, and based on what you’ve seen in the larger gamersphere.
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Comments
In a way, PvP, and this is coming from a PvEer, is an arms race. One side figures out the next big killer build, the other figures out how to counter it. We've seen similar things in the past with meta builds.
There was a time where Escorts were the top DPS ships in the game, hence why some called it Escorts Online back in the day.
There was a time where Aux2Batt builds were the meta, and any ship that could support them were the go to ship.
Right now, we're still in a Cruiser/FAW phase I believe. Anything and everything that can augment Beam Fire at Will.
There are even some really nasty Gravity Well builds out there too that can ruin someone's day.
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Random PUG vs. coordinated team seems like a recipe for slaughter as long as the team has a half-decent strategy of some kind.
Some strategies might feel more "cheap" than others, but your pack of lone wolf puggies is going to be blowing up good either way.
The Devs will have to step in and decide on how to apply game rules to this..and if it needs to be changed.
I will note that this is not the first time someone has mentioned a problem with this placate doff in the forums.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Aux2SIF has a 10 second global cooldown.
agreed. definitely not an exploit, but through the introduction of such mechanics, PVP has become something that needs deep knowledge of these ridiculous game mechanics to keep up and ontop of that, they are ever changing. For me it has become too complex or time consuming, which would require me to invest a lot more time into the game than what I would ever like to invest.
As I have mentioned many times before, this is the main reason why PVP in this game is dead (to me). Should they ever go down the route of premade builds and ships for PVP scenarios that incorporate some PVE elements, I'd try it out.
Either use their proximity against them or apply some aggressive TBR.
STO has a few exploits in the game that Cryptic havent done anything about like the jumping mechanic in the competitive winter race for example or the blantant use of the ignore feature as an abuse tool and the abuse in the last player waving to be ready for the fastest game on ice race gets to hit the track leaving the original player standing around until they can get into the race at a later point.
no game is free of these pesky exploits unfortunately as each new patch or content release by have such a thing, that is the risk that is ran.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I bolded the last because that's the mechanic that prevents exactly the scenario the OP describes. if the mechanic has that in the description,and it's not working IMHO, it's an exploit. if it's NOT in the power description, then it's an oversight. if the Devs fix it or not is up to the devs. I won't say "it's not fair". lifes not fair.
It's the devs' business and only the devs' business to decide how the game is supposed to work. Players can offer opinions, but don't get to make rules. If the devs think something should work differently, they'll change it. Otherwise, what's in the game is what's in the game.
Is it unbalanced, unfair, and generally unfun to fight? Yes.
I tend to agree. Maybe I'm one of those "people who say an exploit isn't an exploit when it really is", but I tend to think if the game allows it, it should be fair game. Others can use it just as much as I can. If the devs don't want it to work that way, they'll change something.
But if I find out I can do something that gives me an edge that other people don't know about, you can bet I'll use it.
And I don't even PVP.
Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference.
-Captain James T. Kirk
This. I don't PvP either, but if I can use an exploit playing the parts I play? Sure, I'll use it as long as the devs allow it. Will I moan and complain if they decide to nerf said exploit? No. I'll simply adapt and go on.
Exactly.
Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference.
-Captain James T. Kirk
Never been a fan of Crowd control in a PVP enviroment in the first place, as it eliminates skill as a deciding factor.
Is it an exploit, possibly. Is it something that should be nerfed for everyone in the community. No. as I have said in the past on many games, powers and abilities in PVE should not work the same in PVP, crowd control being one which should never be aimed at the player. Stun locks kill the game.
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And I should say, back in the day I used the hell out of CC in WOW pvp. I also realize it's why people stop having fun and become angry. PVP should be one sided, but in that it's one sided to the skilled player, not the one with the best CC.
That Krenim Aux2SIF doff is not the only placate in the game. I believe one of the miracle worker abilities placates AND confuses. There's that polaron rep weapon that has a placate proc, new breen winter ship has a placate console, the Miradorn raider console placates, etc. I think it's one of the few means of defense for smaller ships that can't absorb that much damage.
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colored text = mod mode
(also sounds like why some MMO's pvp systems introduced diminishing returns to crowd control abilities in PvP. Because folks have always been annoyed at being stunlocked/chain-feared/etc in battlegrounds.)
No such thing in this game.
Fleet leader Nova Elite
Fleet Leader House of Nova elite
@ren_larreck
No such thing in WoW either.
My experience with two Death Knights doing the "Get Over Here" one after another.
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colored text = mod mode
I notice the only people you hear crying about this in Ker'rat or an Arena match are Tac officers, usually Romulan Tac officers, who are irritated that there is finally a fair counter to their shield and armor-penetrating alpha strikes. They apparently don't have a problem thinking their attacks should ignore shields, armor, and resists though. Funny, that.
Does that answer you question sufficiently? One "fair" imbalanced game mechanic will always beget another equal opposite, so be careful what crutch you decide to lean on, it will eventually get kicked out from under you.
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you generally wish to know a variety of opinions over the situation that you've faced. Honestly, I'm just not that good at figuring out the technical nitty gritty of battle tactics for pvp stuff (me being here primarily for the rpg story aspects), so I applaud any group of gamers who diligently worked to discover a way to dominate, abuse, and/or crush their opponents. I mean that is the whole point isn't it?
I often find those who cry foul ball over effective techniques a bit curious. Would they not have done the very same thing as their skilled opponents had they themselves uncovered such a decent tactic or are they suggesting that anonymous gamers dispersed across the entire world should all hold with some unknown Marquess of Queensberry-style rules to avoid succeeding?