I have nothing against PvP in general, I just don't enjoy doing it myself, so I don't. As long as it isn't a required activity in the game I'm happy to let it stay around for those who enjoy it.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
The main issue with all of the stuff people have been talking about is the same it has been for almost 8 years now. Cryptic simply doesn't really care all that much about pvp. I mean clearly in 8 years we have gotten a solo duo que... a few minor fixes and changes... and a score board that has at this point been broken for what going on 2 years ? lol
What is hillarious is they spend near to zero of their resources on PvP... yet are more then happy to take our money. No PvE only player is using the aux to sif placate doff or the invincible trait (I mean seriously I can count the times I have been at zero hull in PvE in 8 years on one hand)... the placate doff is useless for pve placates one target once every 10s at best. In PvE that is completely pointless and a waste of the 30-60 mil EC you would pay for the doff. There are plenty of examples of gear and traits that are clearly only any good for PvP. Cryptic ensures they keep releasing stupidly broken traits doffs and gear which have become basically required for PvP at different points in the games life... and yet spend very little time even fixing major bugs for PvP players. Kerrat is a broken mess that has had promised fixes multiple times over the years... the arena score board.... Balance hahaha why even talk about balance at this point they can't even be bothered to fix game breaking bugs.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Frankly, @patrickngo, I don't think they put that much thought into it at all.
I doubt they plan to do something to be malicious toward only one group of players (PvPers). Though it may feel like they are, because of the way the additions impact the game.
I think it is more along the lines of: cool, we can add this, I just copied it from an idea from some other game we are playing (because I never hear them talk about playing STO, any more). Think about it: do they have the time or the resources or the talent to be creating "new" assets for the game....And mapping out the demise of PvP, simultaneously?
And at this point, there is so many combinations possible, at so many different levels...I don't think the Devs can possibly keep up with all the ways players are going to use things, anyways. So they just release things by some production time line....in a state they think will be OK.
Only thing I feel is wrong: allowing problems stay in play for so long before they mention a correction will be heading to Holodeck. Turning a blind eye toward things being broken for years and letting it come into common use before a "balance pass". It is crazy stupid.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
that happens in ALL games, though - not just ones that don't have a large enough dev team for the game they're working, but the ones that have dozens if not hundreds devoted to just ONE game
how long was the insanely-overpowered wizard passive Critical Mass allowed to remain so in D3 before blizzard finally redesigned it? (and they had to redesign it because any amount of nerfing to it would still have rendered it a must-have the way it originally worked) it may not have been 'years', but it was certainly a good while
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Frankly, @patrickngo, I don't think they put that much thought into it at all.
I doubt they plan to do something to be malicious toward only one group of players (PvPers). Though it may feel like they are, because of the way the additions impact the game.
I think it is more along the lines of: cool, we can add this, I just copied it from an idea from some other game we are playing (because I never hear them talk about playing STO, any more). Think about it: do they have the time or the resources or the talent to be creating "new" assets for the game....And mapping out the demise of PvP, simultaneously?
And at this point, there is so many combinations possible, at so many different levels...I don't think the Devs can possibly keep up with all the ways players are going to use things, anyways. So they just release things by some production time line....in a state they think will be OK.
Only thing I feel is wrong: allowing problems stay in play for so long before they mention a correction will be heading to Holodeck. Turning a blind eye toward things being broken for years and letting it come into common use before a "balance pass". It is crazy stupid.
In other words, you are saying, the Devs put no thought into what they do except to plagiarize from other games because they think it is cool.
Of course they can't keep up with all the ways that players are going to use things.. they just keep adding more stuff and compounding the issue rather than making it better. They release things by a production timeline in a state they think will be OK which is a quality control issue. All they have to do is wait longer on tribble once they deploy a new item, ability, power, spec, or rep and see the damage messages that occur when people, who have no life, and all they do is look for the next exploit in this game, test it on tribble. But they don't even do that most of the time, and it is very apparent that they don't when something like cold-hearted breen trait, placates, or viral engine overload is released.
I also agree with you that it takes too long for them to correct an issue. What they truly fail to realize is that going back and fixing problems to make the game better than it is for paying customers like me will keep people in the game far longer than trying to cram the next money scam down player throats. I take months, or in the last case, 1.5 years breaks into between the game because I get so tired of cryptic and PWE's approach to this game that I get fed up with them. So for that 1.5 years, they don't make any money from me and when I come back, I get to cherry pick the best stuff based upon player feedback, so I don't even buy everything they would like me to.
What cryptic should really look at is.. why sales for certain items are exceptional.. that might be a red flag that something else is going on given the first sentence of my response, because truly.. nothing is a "must buy" in this game and if it is, it means cryptic's quality control has failed and they put no thought into it.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
But things should be "must buy." Every new thing should be the absolute best for something, if it isn't entirely cosmetic. What's the point of getting anything at all, if it isn't better than what you have already?
I agree, letting something like leech or embassy consoles be best-in-slot for years then nerfing is stupid...they should've been made obsolete by something new, many times over.
But things should be "must buy." Every new thing should be the absolute best for something, if it isn't entirely cosmetic. What's the point of getting anything at all, if it isn't better than what you have already?
I agree, letting something like leech or embassy consoles be best-in-slot for years then nerfing is stupid...they should've been made obsolete by something new, many times over.
That is the definition of power creep and what cryptic hopes you believe and act on. Then, as mentioned in a previous post, cryptic nerfs it 3 months later to introduce the next cycle of power creep. In other words, you are no longer getting what you paid for because in the fine print on any news page that exists, they say that the items on that page are subject to nerf at any time and at cryptic's whim. Perhaps if they "put thought" (yes.. that old phrase again) into these items to begin with, they wouldn't have to nerf them. So many problems at cryptic.
leech was purchased with pure money.. before the dilithium exchange even existed. I think it was wrong to nerf leech as any consoles released on, formerly known as cstore ships, are in a different class of this game, but embassy consoles are a different story and agree with you. See.. f2p creates a bunch of confusion. I agree that cryptic has the right to nerf items after f2p was announced, but items released before that and purchased with pure money are a different class... especially given how many years it existed in the same state.
In any case, it is very clear that cryptic focuses 98% on shoving money items down our throats, but doesn't focus on some basic problems with the game because they deem that the player base can 'deal with them' The Pvp scoreboard.. still decloaking during dialog interactions, abilities and debuffs that can't be countered.. lack of thought.. lack of foresight, lack of caring, lack of quality control, laziness... Guess we will all just wait until the next money grab chokes us.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
But things should be "must buy." Every new thing should be the absolute best for something, if it isn't entirely cosmetic. What's the point of getting anything at all, if it isn't better than what you have already?
I agree, letting something like leech or embassy consoles be best-in-slot for years then nerfing is stupid...they should've been made obsolete by something new, many times over.
No. Because devaluing people's existing purchases, and giving them the knowledge that their next purchase will also be devalued by the release after that, doesn't make people keep buying more new stuff. It makes them stop buying anything, because they know there's no point in buying anything else.
Why buy anything, which will be rendered obsolete, by something which will be rendered obsolete by something else?
People don't play this game as a way of burning through their disposable income, they play it because they love Star Trek, because they enjoy the game, and because they like the ships and crews which they can put together.
For example, I didn't buy* my AoY toon an Andrea with the thought that she'll be a 'good enough placeholder' till the next android is released (perhaps it'll be Airiam) I bought her, because she's Andrea and because I expect her to be fit for the intended purpose and not need replacing
*And yes, I bought her with cash-money to zen to dill to fleet credits (ie waiting for fleet projects to be available to make said conversion-by-donation) Not grinding, purchasing. A deliberate spending of money, which meant I couldn't spend it on something else. The amount of money some spend on their builds, is both beyond my means, but also clearly intentional. They don't pay because they want to spend money, they pay because they don't want to spend who knows how long grinding for [ItemofChoice], and know they can buy it. That won't happen if new stuff always renders the old stuff obsolete.
Yes, new stuff is good (such as the omni-beam from Beyond The Nexus) but such new stuff has to complement the existing options, not render them obsolete, or people will see cash-grabs as cash-grabs and close their wallets
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
But things should be "must buy." Every new thing should be the absolute best for something, if it isn't entirely cosmetic. What's the point of getting anything at all, if it isn't better than what you have already?
I agree, letting something like leech or embassy consoles be best-in-slot for years then nerfing is stupid...they should've been made obsolete by something new, many times over.
No. Because devaluing people's existing purchases, and giving them the knowledge that their next purchase will also be devalued by the release after that, doesn't make people keep buying more new stuff. It makes them stop buying anything, because they know there's no point in buying anything else.
Why buy anything, which will be rendered obsolete, by something which will be rendered obsolete by something else?
Because you need it to accomplish something in the game. Just as you will need something new to accomplish something else in the future.
People don't play this game as a way of burning through their disposable income, they play it because they love Star Trek, because they enjoy the game, and because they like the ships and crews which they can put together.
For example, I didn't buy* my AoY toon an Andrea with the thought that she'll be a 'good enough placeholder' till the next android is released (perhaps it'll be Airiam) I bought her, because she's Andrea and because I expect her to be fit for the intended purpose and not need replacing
I didn't buy Andrea with any toon because she's just another boff just like any boff and doesn't accomplish anything a free boff couldn't do just as well.
Just like pretty much everything in STO except the cosmetics.
*And yes, I bought her with cash-money to zen to dill to fleet credits (ie waiting for fleet projects to be available to make said conversion-by-donation) Not grinding, purchasing. A deliberate spending of money, which meant I couldn't spend it on something else. The amount of money some spend on their builds, is both beyond my means, but also clearly intentional. They don't pay because they want to spend money, they pay because they don't want to spend who knows how long grinding for [ItemofChoice], and know they can buy it. That won't happen if new stuff always renders the old stuff obsolete.
Yes, new stuff is good (such as the omni-beam from Beyond The Nexus) but such new stuff has to complement the existing options, not render them obsolete, or people will see cash-grabs as cash-grabs and close their wallets
Every F2P game I've ever played says you're wrong.
People don't get things, whether through gameplay or purchase, to use them next year. They get things they need now. Or they don't. Which is basically what I said in the event reward thread...it's sad the rewards are so poor and unnecessary they need a crutch like exclusivity to discourage people from leaving it to "next year."
Yes, new stuff will complement previous stuff, as well as have different purposes for different things and different content requiring different builds (at least in games where content requires something, not just a little DPS to kill enemies with). Smart developer even works in ways to still encourage people to earn/buy the old things even after they stop being slot-worthy by themselves (like for cosmetic options or collectables). But given enough new stuff, old stuff must inevitably be surpassed at some point. If the old stuff continues to be the best forever despite round after round of new stuff, that means there's something wrong with the new stuff. That the leech, for example, had survived for so many years and still be a topic when it was nerfed is a clear failure to create better things.
SO..I only read the first page..
Aux2Sif doff = Countered by E-team....Tho the placates + Battle cloak make an interesting hit and run tactic..Just saying..
Immunites= Countered by Buff removing abilities.. Intel suites (Full intel ships just not sure what type of buff immunites are)...Subnuke Carrier Wave (Lt Intel Seat min) ..Subnuke (Sci capt only)
But things should be "must buy." Every new thing should be the absolute best for something, if it isn't entirely cosmetic. What's the point of getting anything at all, if it isn't better than what you have already?
I agree, letting something like leech or embassy consoles be best-in-slot for years then nerfing is stupid...they should've been made obsolete by something new, many times over.
No. Because devaluing people's existing purchases, and giving them the knowledge that their next purchase will also be devalued by the release after that, doesn't make people keep buying more new stuff. It makes them stop buying anything, because they know there's no point in buying anything else.
Why buy anything, which will be rendered obsolete, by something which will be rendered obsolete by something else?
Because you need it to accomplish something in the game. Just as you will need something new to accomplish something else in the future.
I'm sorry, but that isn't a good enough justification. Especially not for a game which is free to play.
People don't play this game as a way of burning through their disposable income, they play it because they love Star Trek, because they enjoy the game, and because they like the ships and crews which they can put together.
For example, I didn't buy* my AoY toon an Andrea with the thought that she'll be a 'good enough placeholder' till the next android is released (perhaps it'll be Airiam) I bought her, because she's Andrea and because I expect her to be fit for the intended purpose and not need replacing
I didn't buy Andrea with any toon because she's just another boff just like any boff and doesn't accomplish anything a free boff couldn't do just as well.
Just like pretty much everything in STO except the cosmetics.
How many free boffs can reboot/resurrect themselves? Nelen Exil (whos missions haven't appeared for me when playing through) is the only one I know of. AFAIK, only LTS players can have androids (other than Andrea) How about holo-Leeta? Or photonic bridge officers? They are also, not free boffs. So, yes, Andrea absolutely does have a unique ability, beyond mere cosmetics, which make her worth (IMO) acquiring. And, as I said: I didn't buy her, with the intention of replacing her WithABetterAndroid after a few levels.
*And yes, I bought her with cash-money to zen to dill to fleet credits (ie waiting for fleet projects to be available to make said conversion-by-donation) Not grinding, purchasing. A deliberate spending of money, which meant I couldn't spend it on something else. The amount of money some spend on their builds, is both beyond my means, but also clearly intentional. They don't pay because they want to spend money, they pay because they don't want to spend who knows how long grinding for [ItemofChoice], and know they can buy it. That won't happen if new stuff always renders the old stuff obsolete.
Yes, new stuff is good (such as the omni-beam from Beyond The Nexus) but such new stuff has to complement the existing options, not render them obsolete, or people will see cash-grabs as cash-grabs and close their wallets
Every F2P game I've ever played says you're wrong.
People don't get things, whether through gameplay or purchase, to use them next year. They get things they need now. Or they don't.
I disagree. I bought a set of TR-116bs* for both my KDF Science, and FedJoined Trill characters, in anticipation of them reaching the Borg Arc. I bought them while I had the spare cash, then left them in their bank (I also banked some Epic MkXII kit modules for when they hit the rank to use them.)
You do people a grave disservice by thinking that they can't plan for the future.
The notion you're connecting to, is the idea of 'mission specific gear', and if said gear needed for the next mission isn't delivered for free in the current mission, that makes it a pay wall... The issue of pay walls in F2P games is another discussion. However, I (and I presume others) don't expect my gear purchases to rendered obsolete by future content. For example, my AoY character has a full set of Fleet phaser cannons and turrets on his Avenger. The ship has been upgraded, so should be able to handle the forseable content, and personal tolerance for respawns will determine at what point I upgrade that ship to an Arbiter (or something else) However, those phaser cannons (especially if I was to upgrade them all to Epic) I would expect to handle future content. I wouldn't expect future content, to necessitate me replacing them with yet another tier of fleet rarity, or say, a set of AllNewDiscoverse phasers with the [BurnhamEffect] mod, just to take down the new content.
I guess what we're talking about, is the difference between investing/delaying gratification, in favor of spending/'living in the now'... I'm happy to spend money on the game, but I would rather be investing my money in purchases which will have some long-term viability, rather than wasting it on ShineyOfTheWeek, which will need replacing with NextWeeksShiney, which will then need replacing with ShineyAfterNext
Additionally' did every other f2p game you've played, have +50 years of franchise history behind them? Because if not, then they're not comparable, because the reasons why people play them (or more importantly keep or stop playing them) will be different.
*As a sidenote, I sold the KDF's rifles, because I needed the EC for WinterEvent items, which were limited-time availability, and I didn't have the spare cash to hand. When I then did have the spare cash, I repurchased the rifles, and so they're now ready to tackle the Borg Arc (well, when I buy her a new ship, but that's another matter)
Which is basically what I said in the event reward thread...it's sad the rewards are so poor and unnecessary they need a crutch like exclusivity to discourage people from leaving it to "next year."
I don't think I saw those comments. I don't have an issue with exclusivity being used as a motivating factor. I'm having a blast with Sompek, even though I have absolutely no intention of getting the weapon (With the exception of my Orion Slaver, I don't use miniguns, and he rarely uses his...) However, I do think that rewarded items need to be worth the time put in/worth acquiring
Yes, new stuff will complement previous stuff, as well as have different purposes for different things and different content requiring different builds (at least in games where content requires something, not just a little DPS to kill enemies with). Smart developer even works in ways to still encourage people to earn/buy the old things even after they stop being slot-worthy by themselves (like for cosmetic options or collectables). But given enough new stuff, old stuff must inevitably be surpassed at some point. If the old stuff continues to be the best forever despite round after round of new stuff, that means there's something wrong with the new stuff. That the leech, for example, had survived for so many years and still be a topic when it was nerfed is a clear failure to create better things.
Must it? I disagree. You're looking at things (or at least seem to be) with the notion that New=Better.
However, that's not always the case.
New can certainly = different and still be equally valid. It doesn't necessarily have to be better, just to be a valid option or for someone to buy it.
We shouldn't, for example, have to buy a whole new set of phased kedion weapons, just to deal with Season 16:Rise of the Androids. While the procs and properties of phased kedion weapons may be different to existing weapons, they shouldn't be mandatory, because Season 16 intentionally renders the previous weapon types obsolete. There's a difference between relying on an audience's willingness to engage, and Milking it beyond the bounds of reasonability
For example, I was recently considering switching out a set of vr mk xii phasers on one of my FunBuilds, with the equivalent grade pulse phaser arrays. When I actually looked into the damage stats, they were the same for both types of phaser. I like the effect of the pulse phaser arrays, but I don't like it enough to blow that much EC on what would amount to a purely cosmetic alteration.
I don't think that's the same issue as with the leech, because that was apparently a coding error which gave that console crazy performance it wasn't intended to have, and which the devs left for ages, before correcting it (and thus wasting the money of everyone who had subsequently bought it as a WonderConsole)
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I agree with silverlobes. New stuff doesn't necessarily have to be *better* than the old stuff, just different. I still get along just fine when I decide to fly one of my T5-U ships in content. It may be because I play normal difficulty but still, I can fly just about any ship and do what I want with it.
If the day came where everything I ever owned becomes obsolete and I'd have to buy some new shiny to get along in game content, that would be the day I would leave the game. My stuff I already have is not 'obsolete' just because some new shiny comes out.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
I agree with silverlobes. New stuff doesn't necessarily have to be *better* than the old stuff, just different. I still get along just fine when I decide to fly one of my T5-U ships in content. It may be because I play normal difficulty but still, I can fly just about any ship and do what I want with it.
If the day came where everything I ever owned becomes obsolete and I'd have to buy some new shiny to get along in game content, that would be the day I would leave the game. My stuff I already have is not 'obsolete' just because some new shiny comes out.
This is what I'm talking about I'm curious to see at what point my AoY's T5-U needs substituting for something with a stronger hull, a bit like the fun of the No Captain challenge, and at what points I've had to upgrade her gear and ships to keep progressing towards L60. Once she hits L60, I'm bringing her back into play completely My AoY, he's already at L60, but not all the way through the available missions, so I'm curious to see how the ship handles the Delta Quadrant
With some of my FunBuilds (on my Overflow Bag-locked character) I've recently been looking at low tier ships and Fleet consoles, to get a good competetive balance for the Deep Space Encounters, and something I have noticed, is that some of the stuff like the Xenotech modules, there's other Fleet stuff available which can do a better job. By the time people start looking at Fleet Gear, I think they tend to be at a point in the game where they not only know what they're doing, but that they have a more comprehensive view of how they want their gear to perform, than a FreshNewPlayer has. Those are people making deliberate purchases, because ConsoleX will have YEffect, and it costs them (in time or money) to acquire it.
Digital content is a funny thing, as although developers do have the legal right to be able to change said content, the question really is one of ethics and morality, and 'is it right to alter the effect of a piece of content, Just Because they want to inteoduce new content, which will require the player to buy new content, just to remain viable?' Of course, we're not going to get an answer to that question here, but that is, fundamentally, the heart of the matter
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Oh, no doubt. But if it happens-if I do have to buy new stuff to stay viable-then I say goodbye to STO.
I definitely understand that sentiment, and to an extent, I agree, I'm just not 100% sure of where my 'that's it, I quit...' point is. Previously, I would have thought it would be if I couldn't play with my favorite character. Then a glitch meant that I couldn't use them for a lot of content, like storyline or queues, or even foundry. I created an alt, and transfered a lot of EC acros, recycled almost everything the character had picked up in the game (just before Mirrors and Smoke was released, so pretty much everything available up to that point) and then I found out, I can still do Deep Space Encounters, or Nimbus III/Kobalistan... All that gear gone (other than the few things I kept, in the hope that the glitch might be fixable) So having passed my own point of no-return, I would say, that if things ever do happen which push you to that point, just see what you can do, and see if that's enough to maintain your interest, before walking away
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
But things should be "must buy." Every new thing should be the absolute best for something, if it isn't entirely cosmetic. What's the point of getting anything at all, if it isn't better than what you have already?
I agree, letting something like leech or embassy consoles be best-in-slot for years then nerfing is stupid...they should've been made obsolete by something new, many times over.
No. Because devaluing people's existing purchases, and giving them the knowledge that their next purchase will also be devalued by the release after that, doesn't make people keep buying more new stuff. It makes them stop buying anything, because they know there's no point in buying anything else.
Why buy anything, which will be rendered obsolete, by something which will be rendered obsolete by something else?
Because you need it to accomplish something in the game. Just as you will need something new to accomplish something else in the future.
I'm sorry, but that isn't a good enough justification. Especially not for a game which is free to play.
Reality doesn't need to be justified. It is.
People don't play this game as a way of burning through their disposable income, they play it because they love Star Trek, because they enjoy the game, and because they like the ships and crews which they can put together.
For example, I didn't buy* my AoY toon an Andrea with the thought that she'll be a 'good enough placeholder' till the next android is released (perhaps it'll be Airiam) I bought her, because she's Andrea and because I expect her to be fit for the intended purpose and not need replacing
I didn't buy Andrea with any toon because she's just another boff just like any boff and doesn't accomplish anything a free boff couldn't do just as well.
Just like pretty much everything in STO except the cosmetics.
How many free boffs can reboot/resurrect themselves? Nelen Exil (whos missions haven't appeared for me when playing through) is the only one I know of. AFAIK, only LTS players can have androids (other than Andrea) How about holo-Leeta? Or photonic bridge officers? They are also, not free boffs. So, yes, Andrea absolutely does have a unique ability, beyond mere cosmetics, which make her worth (IMO) acquiring. And, as I said: I didn't buy her, with the intention of replacing her WithABetterAndroid after a few levels.
So what? What can you do with this ability that you can't do without? Nothing. Which is why I didn't buy her at all.
*And yes, I bought her with cash-money to zen to dill to fleet credits (ie waiting for fleet projects to be available to make said conversion-by-donation) Not grinding, purchasing. A deliberate spending of money, which meant I couldn't spend it on something else. The amount of money some spend on their builds, is both beyond my means, but also clearly intentional. They don't pay because they want to spend money, they pay because they don't want to spend who knows how long grinding for [ItemofChoice], and know they can buy it. That won't happen if new stuff always renders the old stuff obsolete.
Yes, new stuff is good (such as the omni-beam from Beyond The Nexus) but such new stuff has to complement the existing options, not render them obsolete, or people will see cash-grabs as cash-grabs and close their wallets
Every F2P game I've ever played says you're wrong.
People don't get things, whether through gameplay or purchase, to use them next year. They get things they need now. Or they don't.
I disagree. I bought a set of TR-116bs* for both my KDF Science, and FedJoined Trill characters, in anticipation of them reaching the Borg Arc. I bought them while I had the spare cash, then left them in their bank (I also banked some Epic MkXII kit modules for when they hit the rank to use them.)
You do people a grave disservice by thinking that they can't plan for the future.[/quote]
So? You don't need TR-116's for anything either.
The notion you're connecting to, is the idea of 'mission specific gear', and if said gear needed for the next mission isn't delivered for free in the current mission, that makes it a pay wall... The issue of pay walls in F2P games is another discussion. However, I (and I presume others) don't expect my gear purchases to rendered obsolete by future content. For example, my AoY character has a full set of Fleet phaser cannons and turrets on his Avenger. The ship has been upgraded, so should be able to handle the forseable content, and personal tolerance for respawns will determine at what point I upgrade that ship to an Arbiter (or something else) However, those phaser cannons (especially if I was to upgrade them all to Epic) I would expect to handle future content. I wouldn't expect future content, to necessitate me replacing them with yet another tier of fleet rarity, or say, a set of AllNewDiscoverse phasers with the [BurnhamEffect] mod, just to take down the new content.
I don't think there should even exist a ship that could handle all current content with the same configuration much less all forseeable content. It's boring.
I guess what we're talking about, is the difference between investing/delaying gratification, in favor of spending/'living in the now'... I'm happy to spend money on the game, but I would rather be investing my money in purchases which will have some long-term viability, rather than wasting it on ShineyOfTheWeek, which will need replacing with NextWeeksShiney, which will then need replacing with ShineyAfterNext
No, what we're talking about is Easy Mode vs interesting challenges that require planning and preparation to overcome. About rewards and purchases that are meaningful and necessary instead of an endless string of generic "options" that don't really matter for anything but cosmetics.
Which is basically what I said in the event reward thread...it's sad the rewards are so poor and unnecessary they need a crutch like exclusivity to discourage people from leaving it to "next year."
I don't think I saw those comments. I don't have an issue with exclusivity being used as a motivating factor. I'm having a blast with Sompek, even though I have absolutely no intention of getting the weapon (With the exception of my Orion Slaver, I don't use miniguns, and he rarely uses his...) However, I do think that rewarded items need to be worth the time put in/worth acquiring
Yes, they need to. But they aren't. And exclusivity doesn't really work as a motivating factor, because people who don't want the event rewards now probably don't want them, period. On the other hand, collectors don't start playing old games like this at all if it means they've already lost years of items. It's a lose-lose proposition. But it's apparently all they have. And that's sad.
Yes, new stuff will complement previous stuff, as well as have different purposes for different things and different content requiring different builds (at least in games where content requires something, not just a little DPS to kill enemies with). Smart developer even works in ways to still encourage people to earn/buy the old things even after they stop being slot-worthy by themselves (like for cosmetic options or collectables). But given enough new stuff, old stuff must inevitably be surpassed at some point. If the old stuff continues to be the best forever despite round after round of new stuff, that means there's something wrong with the new stuff. That the leech, for example, had survived for so many years and still be a topic when it was nerfed is a clear failure to create better things.
Must it? I disagree. You're looking at things (or at least seem to be) with the notion that New=Better.
However, that's not always the case.
New can certainly = different and still be equally valid. It doesn't necessarily have to be better, just to be a valid option or for someone to buy it.
Like I said, "different" would still be better for something. Except there is no "different" in STO, because plain old DPS decices everything. New stuff is either better for your DPS or it isn't.
You never need different ship for different task, you never need to select bridge officers to best fit a given job, never need to consider what weapons or abilities are effective against which enemies or counters to enemy abilities, nothing. Enemies don't even have different elemental resistances. Just show up in whatever and button-mash a bit, you win.
We shouldn't, for example, have to buy a whole new set of phased kedion weapons, just to deal with Season 16:Rise of the Androids. While the procs and properties of phased kedion weapons may be different to existing weapons, they shouldn't be mandatory, because Season 16 intentionally renders the previous weapon types obsolete. There's a difference between relying on an audience's willingness to engage, and Milking it beyond the bounds of reasonability
Yes, we really should. Different weapons, different ships, different builds, should be the best for different content. Not generic boring one-size-fits-all. And there should absolutely be content you can't win with the wrong build. Most importantly, winning that content should reward something that makes it all worth it.
For example, I was recently considering switching out a set of vr mk xii phasers on one of my FunBuilds, with the equivalent grade pulse phaser arrays. When I actually looked into the damage stats, they were the same for both types of phaser. I like the effect of the pulse phaser arrays, but I don't like it enough to blow that much EC on what would amount to a purely cosmetic alteration.
I, on the other hand, have long decided that the cosmetics are the only reason to buy new weapons at all, because otherwise they're all the same and who cares I can curbstomp all the relevant content with whatever random junk.
I don't think that's the same issue as with the leech, because that was apparently a coding error which gave that console crazy performance it wasn't intended to have, and which the devs left for ages, before correcting it (and thus wasting the money of everyone who had subsequently bought it as a WonderConsole)
As far as I'm concerned, any effect that's "left in" is there on purpose no matter what they say. Actions speak louder than words. But yet again, it's sad they declare the things people are actually enthusiastic about as errors to be fixed rather than successes to be built on.
Way I see it, people have different opinions on what they like/dislike about STO. It doesn't make any one person right versus another person who has differing opinions. We all do what makes us happy in the game.
Oh, no doubt. But if it happens-if I do have to buy new stuff to stay viable-then I say goodbye to STO.
I definitely understand that sentiment, and to an extent, I agree, I'm just not 100% sure of where my 'that's it, I quit...' point is. Previously, I would have thought it would be if I couldn't play with my favorite character. Then a glitch meant that I couldn't use them for a lot of content, like storyline or queues, or even foundry. I created an alt, and transfered a lot of EC acros, recycled almost everything the character had picked up in the game (just before Mirrors and Smoke was released, so pretty much everything available up to that point) and then I found out, I can still do Deep Space Encounters, or Nimbus III/Kobalistan... All that gear gone (other than the few things I kept, in the hope that the glitch might be fixable) So having passed my own point of no-return, I would say, that if things ever do happen which push you to that point, just see what you can do, and see if that's enough to maintain your interest, before walking away
Thank you. I will definitely think long and hard about what to do should I ever reach the "That's it..." sentiment. So far I haven't reached it because I enjoy the DSEs, Nimbus, even the Deferi dailies sometimes. I enjoy visiting the mine, social hubs, crafting and lots of stuff that has nothing to do with story content.
I believe I'll be with STO for a long time. It was the best investment my best friend made when she bought me the lifer. She hasn't regretted getting it for me and I will always be forever grateful to her generosity. I am also forever grateful to some other friends who gifted me with things they could have sold for major EC in the game. Ships, weapons, other stuff. I never look a gift horse in the mouth and I even freely give when I can with no expectations of reimbursement.
Hope to see you ingame sometime
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
Way I see it, people have different opinions on what they like/dislike about STO. It doesn't make any one person right versus another person who has differing opinions. We all do what makes us happy in the game.
Yes. Ideally, there would be different content and difficulty levels for different people and playstyles.
> @botanybang said: > I was wondering where philosophy comes into this philosophical debate?
I believe it was Foucault’s repressive hypothesis which stated that cultural taboos around sexuality result in power structures which regulate and reinforce morality. Power Creep in STO could be read similarly: OP item gets released; player learns to troll with it; player is policed by community; item becomes taboo; more players want it; more players get it; Cryptic nerfs and repeats, selling more taboo and gaining more power in the process. In this way, Cryptic is the hegemonic power structure.
But things should be "must buy." Every new thing should be the absolute best for something, if it isn't entirely cosmetic. What's the point of getting anything at all, if it isn't better than what you have already?
I agree, letting something like leech or embassy consoles be best-in-slot for years then nerfing is stupid...they should've been made obsolete by something new, many times over.
No. Because devaluing people's existing purchases, and giving them the knowledge that their next purchase will also be devalued by the release after that, doesn't make people keep buying more new stuff. It makes them stop buying anything, because they know there's no point in buying anything else.
Why buy anything, which will be rendered obsolete, by something which will be rendered obsolete by something else?
Because you need it to accomplish something in the game. Just as you will need something new to accomplish something else in the future.
I'm sorry, but that isn't a good enough justification. Especially not for a game which is free to play.
Reality doesn't need to be justified. It is.
If Cryptic wants the players to keep paying, then yes, they do need to justify why those spends are justified and necessary.
People don't play this game as a way of burning through their disposable income, they play it because they love Star Trek, because they enjoy the game, and because they like the ships and crews which they can put together.
For example, I didn't buy* my AoY toon an Andrea with the thought that she'll be a 'good enough placeholder' till the next android is released (perhaps it'll be Airiam) I bought her, because she's Andrea and because I expect her to be fit for the intended purpose and not need replacing
I didn't buy Andrea with any toon because she's just another boff just like any boff and doesn't accomplish anything a free boff couldn't do just as well.
Just like pretty much everything in STO except the cosmetics.
How many free boffs can reboot/resurrect themselves? Nelen Exil (whos missions haven't appeared for me when playing through) is the only one I know of. AFAIK, only LTS players can have androids (other than Andrea) How about holo-Leeta? Or photonic bridge officers? They are also, not free boffs. So, yes, Andrea absolutely does have a unique ability, beyond mere cosmetics, which make her worth (IMO) acquiring. And, as I said: I didn't buy her, with the intention of replacing her WithABetterAndroid after a few levels.
So what? What can you do with this ability that you can't do without? Nothing. Which is why I didn't buy her at all.
So, I proved you wrong, that's 'what'. You claimed "I didn't buy Andrea with any toon because she's just another boff just like any boff and doesn't accomplish anything a free boff couldn't do just as well.".
I pointed out that Andrea does have an ability which free boffs don't have. So don't now try to shift the goalposts by deflecting that you consider the ability unessential. That's not the point, and is a very disingenuous, slippery evasion. The point was, she does have an ability which free boffs don't have: That point stands.
*And yes, I bought her with cash-money to zen to dill to fleet credits (ie waiting for fleet projects to be available to make said conversion-by-donation) Not grinding, purchasing. A deliberate spending of money, which meant I couldn't spend it on something else. The amount of money some spend on their builds, is both beyond my means, but also clearly intentional. They don't pay because they want to spend money, they pay because they don't want to spend who knows how long grinding for [ItemofChoice], and know they can buy it. That won't happen if new stuff always renders the old stuff obsolete.
Yes, new stuff is good (such as the omni-beam from Beyond The Nexus) but such new stuff has to complement the existing options, not render them obsolete, or people will see cash-grabs as cash-grabs and close their wallets
Every F2P game I've ever played says you're wrong.
People don't get things, whether through gameplay or purchase, to use them next year. They get things they need now. Or they don't.
I disagree. I bought a set of TR-116bs* for both my KDF Science, and FedJoined Trill characters, in anticipation of them reaching the Borg Arc. I bought them while I had the spare cash, then left them in their bank (I also banked some Epic MkXII kit modules for when they hit the rank to use them.)
You do people a grave disservice by thinking that they can't plan for the future.
So? You don't need TR-116's for anything either.
So, I again, proved you wrong in your claim that players don't buy things to use in the future. Wether you consider that TR-116's are 'needed' is irrelevant. I 'bought stuff' for my character to use at a later point in the game, and I doubt I am the only player who does that. Having a set of TR-116's may not be essential to the progression of the game, but they do make Borg ground content easier. They are something well-suited to that content. Specific gear, for specific content: Something you are saying is important, and keeps things interesting. More on that in a moment...
The notion you're connecting to, is the idea of 'mission specific gear', and if said gear needed for the next mission isn't delivered for free in the current mission, that makes it a pay wall... The issue of pay walls in F2P games is another discussion. However, I (and I presume others) don't expect my gear purchases to rendered obsolete by future content. For example, my AoY character has a full set of Fleet phaser cannons and turrets on his Avenger. The ship has been upgraded, so should be able to handle the forseable content, and personal tolerance for respawns will determine at what point I upgrade that ship to an Arbiter (or something else) However, those phaser cannons (especially if I was to upgrade them all to Epic) I would expect to handle future content. I wouldn't expect future content, to necessitate me replacing them with yet another tier of fleet rarity, or say, a set of AllNewDiscoverse phasers with the [BurnhamEffect] mod, just to take down the new content.
I don't think there should even exist a ship that could handle all current content with the same configuration much less all forseeable content. It's boring.
You already made the claim that there's no need for specific gear for specific content, so you can't now try and make the claim that varied loads 'keeps things interesting', while simultaneously denying that a type of content-specific gear is necessary or relevant to the discussion. Which claim do you wish to concede? That TR-116's aren't necessary* for Borg content, or that varied gear loads keep things from being boring?
(*No, not AbsolutelyESSENTIAL but they definitely fall under the category of 'theme specific gear')
I guess what we're talking about, is the difference between investing/delaying gratification, in favor of spending/'living in the now'... I'm happy to spend money on the game, but I would rather be investing my money in purchases which will have some long-term viability, rather than wasting it on ShineyOfTheWeek, which will need replacing with NextWeeksShiney, which will then need replacing with ShineyAfterNext
No, what we're talking about is Easy Mode vs interesting challenges that require planning and preparation to overcome. About rewards and purchases that are meaningful and necessary instead of an endless string of generic "options" that don't really matter for anything but cosmetics.
So like I illustrated with the TR-116's: An option which requires planning and preparation to obtain, and which is specifically geared towards a set of content. IMO, not having to worry about hitting a remodulator every five shots, means I can focus on other aspects of the mission and actually enjoy it, and find it interesting...
Which is basically what I said in the event reward thread...it's sad the rewards are so poor and unnecessary they need a crutch like exclusivity to discourage people from leaving it to "next year."
I don't think I saw those comments. I don't have an issue with exclusivity being used as a motivating factor. I'm having a blast with Sompek, even though I have absolutely no intention of getting the weapon (With the exception of my Orion Slaver, I don't use miniguns, and he rarely uses his...) However, I do think that rewarded items need to be worth the time put in/worth acquiring
Yes, they need to. But they aren't. And exclusivity doesn't really work as a motivating factor, because people who don't want the event rewards now probably don't want them, period. On the other hand, collectors don't start playing old games like this at all if it means they've already lost years of items. It's a lose-lose proposition. But it's apparently all they have. And that's sad.
Are you claiming that there are no new players starting to play STO? Exclusive content, will always be relevant to new players. Will I run the Winter Event next year? Probably not, unless I have a new character in need of things like the cryoplasma warpcore. But I'm sure new players would like to acquire said content. I didn't feel the need to buy a load of Phoenix boxes (although I would like Red Matter Capacitors for all my alts) because I wasn't in the mood to throw away the dil on RNGesus just to get the upgrade tokens. The tokens would be helpful, but I had other more important things to do with the dil. But I think they're a great way for players to get things which they couldn't usually get, like the shotgun, for example. Or these mission replays to get the Ophidian cane, or the Breen or Reman boffs: Only worth doing if one needs those rewards, but it's still good that the options be available for those players who otherwise couldn't get them (because they're new players)
Yes, new stuff will complement previous stuff, as well as have different purposes for different things and different content requiring different builds (at least in games where content requires something, not just a little DPS to kill enemies with). Smart developer even works in ways to still encourage people to earn/buy the old things even after they stop being slot-worthy by themselves (like for cosmetic options or collectables). But given enough new stuff, old stuff must inevitably be surpassed at some point. If the old stuff continues to be the best forever despite round after round of new stuff, that means there's something wrong with the new stuff. That the leech, for example, had survived for so many years and still be a topic when it was nerfed is a clear failure to create better things.
Must it? I disagree. You're looking at things (or at least seem to be) with the notion that New=Better.
However, that's not always the case.
New can certainly = different and still be equally valid. It doesn't necessarily have to be better, just to be a valid option or for someone to buy it.
Like I said, "different" would still be better for something. Except there is no "different" in STO, because plain old DPS decices everything. New stuff is either better for your DPS or it isn't.
You never need different ship for different task, you never need to select bridge officers to best fit a given job, never need to consider what weapons or abilities are effective against which enemies or counters to enemy abilities, nothing. Enemies don't even have different elemental resistances. Just show up in whatever and button-mash a bit, you win.
Again, Borg, and TR-116's and other kinetic weapons. Cardassian Galors like using FBP, so hitting them with rapid-firing cannons, pounds the player as well. Don't Voth also do something similar with reflecting weapons fire back? Loading cannons or turrets onto a ship, means using a boff with cannon rapid fire to maximize the potential of the weapon. As I observed in the No Captain Challenge thread, in "Taris", it's more beneficial to have the Lt Sci seat as tractor beam repulsors (to keep away the D'deridex's torpedoes) than feedback pulse. For you to claim "You never need different ship for different task, you never need to select bridge officers to best fit a given job, never need to consider what weapons or abilities are effective against which enemies or counters to enemy abilities, nothing." is observably false.
Unless, of course, you're using a DPSMegaBuild, with output so high that it doesn't matter what kind or type of damage you're flavor is, the Amount of the Output, is enough to vape the target... And in which case, you're refering to a very specific set of players, not the majority, who don't have those kind of vape-builds...
We shouldn't, for example, have to buy a whole new set of phased kedion weapons, just to deal with Season 16:Rise of the Androids. While the procs and properties of phased kedion weapons may be different to existing weapons, they shouldn't be mandatory, because Season 16 intentionally renders the previous weapon types obsolete. There's a difference between relying on an audience's willingness to engage, and Milking it beyond the bounds of reasonability
Yes, we really should. Different weapons, different ships, different builds, should be the best for different content. Not generic boring one-size-fits-all. And there should absolutely be content you can't win with the wrong build. Most importantly, winning that content should reward something that makes it all worth it.
So are you advocating paywalls in a game which is F2P?
I don't have an issue with gear which is better suited to a particular type of content than other gear. I don't have issue with paying for Better Gear to tackle content or new content and making it easier, but that is very different to Having To Buy new Specific Gear just to progress. It's also very different, to the notion of buying A Piece of Gear, knowing full well that it will be rendered Obsolete by Another Piece of Gear, which will ALSO be rendered obsolete by Yet Another Piece of Gear (each of which, has had to be paid for rather than delivered via previous mission rewards, or ground for) and the arrogance to assume that players will just Keep Buying 'because it's Star Trek'.
You might like wasting money, I don't. I don't know many others who do.
Remind me what the Player Reaction was to Delta Rising, where people had to significantly upgrade and alter their gear and T5s were rendered obsolete for T6s. Or to last year's nerfrebalance.
Did the players love it, or did the game haemorrhage players as a result?
For example, I was recently considering switching out a set of vr mk xii phasers on one of my FunBuilds, with the equivalent grade pulse phaser arrays. When I actually looked into the damage stats, they were the same for both types of phaser. I like the effect of the pulse phaser arrays, but I don't like it enough to blow that much EC on what would amount to a purely cosmetic alteration.
I, on the other hand, have long decided that the cosmetics are the only reason to buy new weapons at all, because otherwise they're all the same and who cares I can curbstomp all the relevant content with whatever random junk.
Different strokes for different folks... I'm all for Space Barbie, but that's not what I was talking about.
I was talking about not being able to justify the cost (at the time) for something purely cosmetic. Now spending out on a different type of weapons, like Cardassian Spiral Wave Disruptors, for example, which will have a different effect, that is a different matter. And one of personal choice.
But again, the point is not about wanting to, but that having to, and introducing powercreep paywalls in a game which is F2P, is a dishonest and manipulative practice, which is taking advantage of the playerbase in an unreasonable manner, 'because it's Star Trek'. This is why I pointed out that it's not possible to compare the other F2P games you mentioned, to STO, because people will play and keep playing STO 'because it's Star Trek', with an extent of personal investment, which they wouldn't have for another similar game, such as, say, Neverwinter, or WoW or EvE: They play 'because it's Star Trek', and to exploit that 'willingness to engage', risks killing the goose which lays the golden egg.
I don't think that's the same issue as with the leech, because that was apparently a coding error which gave that console crazy performance it wasn't intended to have, and which the devs left for ages, before correcting it (and thus wasting the money of everyone who had subsequently bought it as a WonderConsole)
As far as I'm concerned, any effect that's "left in" is there on purpose no matter what they say. Actions speak louder than words. But yet again, it's sad they declare the things people are actually enthusiastic about as errors to be fixed rather than successes to be built on.
Well, that's certainly your prerogative to think that, but that really is just your own assumption about the situation. What the devs say or do (or rather don't do) on the subject, is the real truth of the situation, and what we have to take as such.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
> @botanybang said:
> I was wondering where philosophy comes into this philosophical debate?
I believe it was Foucault’s repressive hypothesis which stated that cultural taboos around sexuality result in power structures which regulate and reinforce morality. Power Creep in STO could be read similarly: OP item gets released; player learns to troll with it; player is policed by community; item becomes taboo; more players want it; more players get it; Cryptic nerfs and repeats, selling more taboo and gaining more power in the process. In this way, Cryptic is the hegemonic power structure.
I believe you your thinking is too restricted. You take Foucault for face value, ignoring that most of his theorems can be easily
recognized as Heideggers ontological understanding of being. But if you replace Foucault's "power" with "being" you have an original Heidegger, who was recognised as being the philosopher of the third reich. What Cryptic does is generally not ontological, but buisiness-derived. Trying to understand this, it's more feasible to take a dialectical approach based on Hegel, combined with Adorno's turnover to materialism.
But I don't think such a discussion was intended with thread creation...
Things like this is why PVP needs to be either removed or fixed with white non customized ships. PVP needs to be pilot skill not ship build. Level the field to even ground. Until this is done PVP is going to be ignored by most.
Comments
What is hillarious is they spend near to zero of their resources on PvP... yet are more then happy to take our money. No PvE only player is using the aux to sif placate doff or the invincible trait (I mean seriously I can count the times I have been at zero hull in PvE in 8 years on one hand)... the placate doff is useless for pve placates one target once every 10s at best. In PvE that is completely pointless and a waste of the 30-60 mil EC you would pay for the doff. There are plenty of examples of gear and traits that are clearly only any good for PvP. Cryptic ensures they keep releasing stupidly broken traits doffs and gear which have become basically required for PvP at different points in the games life... and yet spend very little time even fixing major bugs for PvP players. Kerrat is a broken mess that has had promised fixes multiple times over the years... the arena score board.... Balance hahaha why even talk about balance at this point they can't even be bothered to fix game breaking bugs.
you do realize his most recent post was a little over a month ago, right? so clearly he HAS been seen since march and is still working for cryptic
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I doubt they plan to do something to be malicious toward only one group of players (PvPers). Though it may feel like they are, because of the way the additions impact the game.
I think it is more along the lines of: cool, we can add this, I just copied it from an idea from some other game we are playing (because I never hear them talk about playing STO, any more). Think about it: do they have the time or the resources or the talent to be creating "new" assets for the game....And mapping out the demise of PvP, simultaneously?
And at this point, there is so many combinations possible, at so many different levels...I don't think the Devs can possibly keep up with all the ways players are going to use things, anyways. So they just release things by some production time line....in a state they think will be OK.
Only thing I feel is wrong: allowing problems stay in play for so long before they mention a correction will be heading to Holodeck. Turning a blind eye toward things being broken for years and letting it come into common use before a "balance pass". It is crazy stupid.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
how long was the insanely-overpowered wizard passive Critical Mass allowed to remain so in D3 before blizzard finally redesigned it? (and they had to redesign it because any amount of nerfing to it would still have rendered it a must-have the way it originally worked) it may not have been 'years', but it was certainly a good while
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
In other words, you are saying, the Devs put no thought into what they do except to plagiarize from other games because they think it is cool.
Of course they can't keep up with all the ways that players are going to use things.. they just keep adding more stuff and compounding the issue rather than making it better. They release things by a production timeline in a state they think will be OK which is a quality control issue. All they have to do is wait longer on tribble once they deploy a new item, ability, power, spec, or rep and see the damage messages that occur when people, who have no life, and all they do is look for the next exploit in this game, test it on tribble. But they don't even do that most of the time, and it is very apparent that they don't when something like cold-hearted breen trait, placates, or viral engine overload is released.
I also agree with you that it takes too long for them to correct an issue. What they truly fail to realize is that going back and fixing problems to make the game better than it is for paying customers like me will keep people in the game far longer than trying to cram the next money scam down player throats. I take months, or in the last case, 1.5 years breaks into between the game because I get so tired of cryptic and PWE's approach to this game that I get fed up with them. So for that 1.5 years, they don't make any money from me and when I come back, I get to cherry pick the best stuff based upon player feedback, so I don't even buy everything they would like me to.
What cryptic should really look at is.. why sales for certain items are exceptional.. that might be a red flag that something else is going on given the first sentence of my response, because truly.. nothing is a "must buy" in this game and if it is, it means cryptic's quality control has failed and they put no thought into it.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
I agree, letting something like leech or embassy consoles be best-in-slot for years then nerfing is stupid...they should've been made obsolete by something new, many times over.
That is the definition of power creep and what cryptic hopes you believe and act on. Then, as mentioned in a previous post, cryptic nerfs it 3 months later to introduce the next cycle of power creep. In other words, you are no longer getting what you paid for because in the fine print on any news page that exists, they say that the items on that page are subject to nerf at any time and at cryptic's whim. Perhaps if they "put thought" (yes.. that old phrase again) into these items to begin with, they wouldn't have to nerf them. So many problems at cryptic.
leech was purchased with pure money.. before the dilithium exchange even existed. I think it was wrong to nerf leech as any consoles released on, formerly known as cstore ships, are in a different class of this game, but embassy consoles are a different story and agree with you. See.. f2p creates a bunch of confusion. I agree that cryptic has the right to nerf items after f2p was announced, but items released before that and purchased with pure money are a different class... especially given how many years it existed in the same state.
In any case, it is very clear that cryptic focuses 98% on shoving money items down our throats, but doesn't focus on some basic problems with the game because they deem that the player base can 'deal with them' The Pvp scoreboard.. still decloaking during dialog interactions, abilities and debuffs that can't be countered.. lack of thought.. lack of foresight, lack of caring, lack of quality control, laziness... Guess we will all just wait until the next money grab chokes us.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
No. Because devaluing people's existing purchases, and giving them the knowledge that their next purchase will also be devalued by the release after that, doesn't make people keep buying more new stuff. It makes them stop buying anything, because they know there's no point in buying anything else.
Why buy anything, which will be rendered obsolete, by something which will be rendered obsolete by something else?
People don't play this game as a way of burning through their disposable income, they play it because they love Star Trek, because they enjoy the game, and because they like the ships and crews which they can put together.
For example, I didn't buy* my AoY toon an Andrea with the thought that she'll be a 'good enough placeholder' till the next android is released (perhaps it'll be Airiam) I bought her, because she's Andrea and because I expect her to be fit for the intended purpose and not need replacing
*And yes, I bought her with cash-money to zen to dill to fleet credits (ie waiting for fleet projects to be available to make said conversion-by-donation) Not grinding, purchasing. A deliberate spending of money, which meant I couldn't spend it on something else. The amount of money some spend on their builds, is both beyond my means, but also clearly intentional. They don't pay because they want to spend money, they pay because they don't want to spend who knows how long grinding for [ItemofChoice], and know they can buy it. That won't happen if new stuff always renders the old stuff obsolete.
Yes, new stuff is good (such as the omni-beam from Beyond The Nexus) but such new stuff has to complement the existing options, not render them obsolete, or people will see cash-grabs as cash-grabs and close their wallets
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I didn't buy Andrea with any toon because she's just another boff just like any boff and doesn't accomplish anything a free boff couldn't do just as well.
Just like pretty much everything in STO except the cosmetics.
Every F2P game I've ever played says you're wrong.
People don't get things, whether through gameplay or purchase, to use them next year. They get things they need now. Or they don't. Which is basically what I said in the event reward thread...it's sad the rewards are so poor and unnecessary they need a crutch like exclusivity to discourage people from leaving it to "next year."
Yes, new stuff will complement previous stuff, as well as have different purposes for different things and different content requiring different builds (at least in games where content requires something, not just a little DPS to kill enemies with). Smart developer even works in ways to still encourage people to earn/buy the old things even after they stop being slot-worthy by themselves (like for cosmetic options or collectables). But given enough new stuff, old stuff must inevitably be surpassed at some point. If the old stuff continues to be the best forever despite round after round of new stuff, that means there's something wrong with the new stuff. That the leech, for example, had survived for so many years and still be a topic when it was nerfed is a clear failure to create better things.
Aux2Sif doff = Countered by E-team....Tho the placates + Battle cloak make an interesting hit and run tactic..Just saying..
Immunites= Countered by Buff removing abilities.. Intel suites (Full intel ships just not sure what type of buff immunites are)...Subnuke Carrier Wave (Lt Intel Seat min) ..Subnuke (Sci capt only)
Rouge Sto Wiki Editor.
How many free boffs can reboot/resurrect themselves? Nelen Exil (whos missions haven't appeared for me when playing through) is the only one I know of. AFAIK, only LTS players can have androids (other than Andrea) How about holo-Leeta? Or photonic bridge officers? They are also, not free boffs. So, yes, Andrea absolutely does have a unique ability, beyond mere cosmetics, which make her worth (IMO) acquiring. And, as I said: I didn't buy her, with the intention of replacing her WithABetterAndroid after a few levels.
I disagree. I bought a set of TR-116bs* for both my KDF Science, and FedJoined Trill characters, in anticipation of them reaching the Borg Arc. I bought them while I had the spare cash, then left them in their bank (I also banked some Epic MkXII kit modules for when they hit the rank to use them.)
You do people a grave disservice by thinking that they can't plan for the future.
The notion you're connecting to, is the idea of 'mission specific gear', and if said gear needed for the next mission isn't delivered for free in the current mission, that makes it a pay wall... The issue of pay walls in F2P games is another discussion. However, I (and I presume others) don't expect my gear purchases to rendered obsolete by future content. For example, my AoY character has a full set of Fleet phaser cannons and turrets on his Avenger. The ship has been upgraded, so should be able to handle the forseable content, and personal tolerance for respawns will determine at what point I upgrade that ship to an Arbiter (or something else) However, those phaser cannons (especially if I was to upgrade them all to Epic) I would expect to handle future content. I wouldn't expect future content, to necessitate me replacing them with yet another tier of fleet rarity, or say, a set of AllNewDiscoverse phasers with the [BurnhamEffect] mod, just to take down the new content.
I guess what we're talking about, is the difference between investing/delaying gratification, in favor of spending/'living in the now'... I'm happy to spend money on the game, but I would rather be investing my money in purchases which will have some long-term viability, rather than wasting it on ShineyOfTheWeek, which will need replacing with NextWeeksShiney, which will then need replacing with ShineyAfterNext
Additionally' did every other f2p game you've played, have +50 years of franchise history behind them? Because if not, then they're not comparable, because the reasons why people play them (or more importantly keep or stop playing them) will be different.
*As a sidenote, I sold the KDF's rifles, because I needed the EC for WinterEvent items, which were limited-time availability, and I didn't have the spare cash to hand. When I then did have the spare cash, I repurchased the rifles, and so they're now ready to tackle the Borg Arc (well, when I buy her a new ship, but that's another matter)
I don't think I saw those comments. I don't have an issue with exclusivity being used as a motivating factor. I'm having a blast with Sompek, even though I have absolutely no intention of getting the weapon (With the exception of my Orion Slaver, I don't use miniguns, and he rarely uses his...) However, I do think that rewarded items need to be worth the time put in/worth acquiring
Must it? I disagree. You're looking at things (or at least seem to be) with the notion that New=Better.
However, that's not always the case.
New can certainly = different and still be equally valid. It doesn't necessarily have to be better, just to be a valid option or for someone to buy it.
We shouldn't, for example, have to buy a whole new set of phased kedion weapons, just to deal with Season 16:Rise of the Androids. While the procs and properties of phased kedion weapons may be different to existing weapons, they shouldn't be mandatory, because Season 16 intentionally renders the previous weapon types obsolete. There's a difference between relying on an audience's willingness to engage, and Milking it beyond the bounds of reasonability
For example, I was recently considering switching out a set of vr mk xii phasers on one of my FunBuilds, with the equivalent grade pulse phaser arrays. When I actually looked into the damage stats, they were the same for both types of phaser. I like the effect of the pulse phaser arrays, but I don't like it enough to blow that much EC on what would amount to a purely cosmetic alteration.
I don't think that's the same issue as with the leech, because that was apparently a coding error which gave that console crazy performance it wasn't intended to have, and which the devs left for ages, before correcting it (and thus wasting the money of everyone who had subsequently bought it as a WonderConsole)
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
If the day came where everything I ever owned becomes obsolete and I'd have to buy some new shiny to get along in game content, that would be the day I would leave the game. My stuff I already have is not 'obsolete' just because some new shiny comes out.
With some of my FunBuilds (on my Overflow Bag-locked character) I've recently been looking at low tier ships and Fleet consoles, to get a good competetive balance for the Deep Space Encounters, and something I have noticed, is that some of the stuff like the Xenotech modules, there's other Fleet stuff available which can do a better job. By the time people start looking at Fleet Gear, I think they tend to be at a point in the game where they not only know what they're doing, but that they have a more comprehensive view of how they want their gear to perform, than a FreshNewPlayer has. Those are people making deliberate purchases, because ConsoleX will have YEffect, and it costs them (in time or money) to acquire it.
Digital content is a funny thing, as although developers do have the legal right to be able to change said content, the question really is one of ethics and morality, and 'is it right to alter the effect of a piece of content, Just Because they want to inteoduce new content, which will require the player to buy new content, just to remain viable?' Of course, we're not going to get an answer to that question here, but that is, fundamentally, the heart of the matter
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
So what? What can you do with this ability that you can't do without? Nothing. Which is why I didn't buy her at all.
I disagree. I bought a set of TR-116bs* for both my KDF Science, and FedJoined Trill characters, in anticipation of them reaching the Borg Arc. I bought them while I had the spare cash, then left them in their bank (I also banked some Epic MkXII kit modules for when they hit the rank to use them.)
You do people a grave disservice by thinking that they can't plan for the future.[/quote]
So? You don't need TR-116's for anything either.
I don't think there should even exist a ship that could handle all current content with the same configuration much less all forseeable content. It's boring.
No, what we're talking about is Easy Mode vs interesting challenges that require planning and preparation to overcome. About rewards and purchases that are meaningful and necessary instead of an endless string of generic "options" that don't really matter for anything but cosmetics.
Yes, they need to. But they aren't. And exclusivity doesn't really work as a motivating factor, because people who don't want the event rewards now probably don't want them, period. On the other hand, collectors don't start playing old games like this at all if it means they've already lost years of items. It's a lose-lose proposition. But it's apparently all they have. And that's sad.
Like I said, "different" would still be better for something. Except there is no "different" in STO, because plain old DPS decices everything. New stuff is either better for your DPS or it isn't.
You never need different ship for different task, you never need to select bridge officers to best fit a given job, never need to consider what weapons or abilities are effective against which enemies or counters to enemy abilities, nothing. Enemies don't even have different elemental resistances. Just show up in whatever and button-mash a bit, you win.
Yes, we really should. Different weapons, different ships, different builds, should be the best for different content. Not generic boring one-size-fits-all. And there should absolutely be content you can't win with the wrong build. Most importantly, winning that content should reward something that makes it all worth it.
I, on the other hand, have long decided that the cosmetics are the only reason to buy new weapons at all, because otherwise they're all the same and who cares I can curbstomp all the relevant content with whatever random junk.
As far as I'm concerned, any effect that's "left in" is there on purpose no matter what they say. Actions speak louder than words. But yet again, it's sad they declare the things people are actually enthusiastic about as errors to be fixed rather than successes to be built on.
Thank you. I will definitely think long and hard about what to do should I ever reach the "That's it..." sentiment. So far I haven't reached it because I enjoy the DSEs, Nimbus, even the Deferi dailies sometimes. I enjoy visiting the mine, social hubs, crafting and lots of stuff that has nothing to do with story content.
I believe I'll be with STO for a long time. It was the best investment my best friend made when she bought me the lifer. She hasn't regretted getting it for me and I will always be forever grateful to her generosity. I am also forever grateful to some other friends who gifted me with things they could have sold for major EC in the game. Ships, weapons, other stuff. I never look a gift horse in the mouth and I even freely give when I can with no expectations of reimbursement.
Hope to see you ingame sometime
> I was wondering where philosophy comes into this philosophical debate?
I believe it was Foucault’s repressive hypothesis which stated that cultural taboos around sexuality result in power structures which regulate and reinforce morality. Power Creep in STO could be read similarly: OP item gets released; player learns to troll with it; player is policed by community; item becomes taboo; more players want it; more players get it; Cryptic nerfs and repeats, selling more taboo and gaining more power in the process. In this way, Cryptic is the hegemonic power structure.
So, I proved you wrong, that's 'what'. You claimed "I didn't buy Andrea with any toon because she's just another boff just like any boff and doesn't accomplish anything a free boff couldn't do just as well.".
I pointed out that Andrea does have an ability which free boffs don't have. So don't now try to shift the goalposts by deflecting that you consider the ability unessential. That's not the point, and is a very disingenuous, slippery evasion. The point was, she does have an ability which free boffs don't have: That point stands.
So, I again, proved you wrong in your claim that players don't buy things to use in the future. Wether you consider that TR-116's are 'needed' is irrelevant. I 'bought stuff' for my character to use at a later point in the game, and I doubt I am the only player who does that. Having a set of TR-116's may not be essential to the progression of the game, but they do make Borg ground content easier. They are something well-suited to that content. Specific gear, for specific content: Something you are saying is important, and keeps things interesting. More on that in a moment...
You already made the claim that there's no need for specific gear for specific content, so you can't now try and make the claim that varied loads 'keeps things interesting', while simultaneously denying that a type of content-specific gear is necessary or relevant to the discussion. Which claim do you wish to concede? That TR-116's aren't necessary* for Borg content, or that varied gear loads keep things from being boring?
(*No, not AbsolutelyESSENTIAL but they definitely fall under the category of 'theme specific gear')
So like I illustrated with the TR-116's: An option which requires planning and preparation to obtain, and which is specifically geared towards a set of content. IMO, not having to worry about hitting a remodulator every five shots, means I can focus on other aspects of the mission and actually enjoy it, and find it interesting...
Are you claiming that there are no new players starting to play STO? Exclusive content, will always be relevant to new players. Will I run the Winter Event next year? Probably not, unless I have a new character in need of things like the cryoplasma warpcore. But I'm sure new players would like to acquire said content. I didn't feel the need to buy a load of Phoenix boxes (although I would like Red Matter Capacitors for all my alts) because I wasn't in the mood to throw away the dil on RNGesus just to get the upgrade tokens. The tokens would be helpful, but I had other more important things to do with the dil. But I think they're a great way for players to get things which they couldn't usually get, like the shotgun, for example. Or these mission replays to get the Ophidian cane, or the Breen or Reman boffs: Only worth doing if one needs those rewards, but it's still good that the options be available for those players who otherwise couldn't get them (because they're new players)
Again, Borg, and TR-116's and other kinetic weapons. Cardassian Galors like using FBP, so hitting them with rapid-firing cannons, pounds the player as well. Don't Voth also do something similar with reflecting weapons fire back? Loading cannons or turrets onto a ship, means using a boff with cannon rapid fire to maximize the potential of the weapon. As I observed in the No Captain Challenge thread, in "Taris", it's more beneficial to have the Lt Sci seat as tractor beam repulsors (to keep away the D'deridex's torpedoes) than feedback pulse. For you to claim "You never need different ship for different task, you never need to select bridge officers to best fit a given job, never need to consider what weapons or abilities are effective against which enemies or counters to enemy abilities, nothing." is observably false.
Unless, of course, you're using a DPSMegaBuild, with output so high that it doesn't matter what kind or type of damage you're flavor is, the Amount of the Output, is enough to vape the target... And in which case, you're refering to a very specific set of players, not the majority, who don't have those kind of vape-builds...
So are you advocating paywalls in a game which is F2P?
I don't have an issue with gear which is better suited to a particular type of content than other gear. I don't have issue with paying for Better Gear to tackle content or new content and making it easier, but that is very different to Having To Buy new Specific Gear just to progress. It's also very different, to the notion of buying A Piece of Gear, knowing full well that it will be rendered Obsolete by Another Piece of Gear, which will ALSO be rendered obsolete by Yet Another Piece of Gear (each of which, has had to be paid for rather than delivered via previous mission rewards, or ground for) and the arrogance to assume that players will just Keep Buying 'because it's Star Trek'.
You might like wasting money, I don't. I don't know many others who do.
Remind me what the Player Reaction was to Delta Rising, where people had to significantly upgrade and alter their gear and T5s were rendered obsolete for T6s. Or to last year's nerfrebalance.
Did the players love it, or did the game haemorrhage players as a result?
Different strokes for different folks... I'm all for Space Barbie, but that's not what I was talking about.
I was talking about not being able to justify the cost (at the time) for something purely cosmetic. Now spending out on a different type of weapons, like Cardassian Spiral Wave Disruptors, for example, which will have a different effect, that is a different matter. And one of personal choice.
But again, the point is not about wanting to, but that having to, and introducing powercreep paywalls in a game which is F2P, is a dishonest and manipulative practice, which is taking advantage of the playerbase in an unreasonable manner, 'because it's Star Trek'. This is why I pointed out that it's not possible to compare the other F2P games you mentioned, to STO, because people will play and keep playing STO 'because it's Star Trek', with an extent of personal investment, which they wouldn't have for another similar game, such as, say, Neverwinter, or WoW or EvE: They play 'because it's Star Trek', and to exploit that 'willingness to engage', risks killing the goose which lays the golden egg.
Well, that's certainly your prerogative to think that, but that really is just your own assumption about the situation. What the devs say or do (or rather don't do) on the subject, is the real truth of the situation, and what we have to take as such.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
recognized as Heideggers ontological understanding of being. But if you replace Foucault's "power" with "being" you have an original Heidegger, who was recognised as being the philosopher of the third reich. What Cryptic does is generally not ontological, but buisiness-derived. Trying to understand this, it's more feasible to take a dialectical approach based on Hegel, combined with Adorno's turnover to materialism.
But I don't think such a discussion was intended with thread creation...