It does. But firing a weapon isn't generally as time-sensitive as jumping from one platform to another before the current platform becomes inaccessible/lethal.
Who's having trouble with reading comprehension again?
Clearly you are having issues since it is abundantly clear you are having difficulty following the conversation. If you want to TRIBBLE everyone and say that lag spikes are constant 100% of the time for everyone and it prevents people from jumping, go right ahead. It is totally incorrect, but you can make whatever erroneous claims you like.
Jonsills is right, ordinary combat moves and weapon firing are not as time-sensitive as platform jumping. I can confirm it from personal experience. And no, I am not on dialup or whatever you might think, I actually have a reasonably fast broadband connection except for those random lag spikes.
Also, my machine far exceeds the game minimum requirements, STO's requirements are quite low compared to some of the other games I play, and I play those just fine (except for the occasional precision timing thing that can get trashed by the spikes at times), so it is not a case of machine requirements either.
(Oh, and you did say that people complaining about that delay were just poorly-coordinated. Go back and reread your posts.)
Well no, this is not what I said, but please do keep misreading everything. I said I did not recall anyone making posts about not being able to jump due to internet issues on the old Borg TFs. Again, reading comprehension.
Maybe not specifically about the old Borg TFs, but you did make the claim in a wide sweeping statement:
No, there were a select few very vocal people who simply did not have the hand-eye coordination skills to click the space bar and W key at the same time. It had nothing to do with unstable connections or lag spikes. The jumping that was required is quite literally a piece of cake compared to other games on other platforms.
That certainly sounds like you are blaming the whole problem on bad eye-hand coordination whether you meant it to sound that way or not. Reading comprehension factors into proofreading as well.
As for the chaos, you might be surprised how many casuals are not interested in hunting down walkthroughs and prefer to learn the ropes directly (or simply don't want to burn their usually limited gaming time with finding and studying walkthroughs), even if it annoys the oldschool raid-centric gamers.
Also some of the RP gamers don't use walkthroughs partly because it is immersion breaking to do that in the middle of a long gaming session and partly because in real life there are few if any walkthroughs so they want their character to do the content without them.
In most games (and I doubt STO is an exception) the casuals far outnumber everyone else, and likewise there are quite a few RP players in an MMORPG, especially one based on a wildly popular TV series like Star Trek, and a working standardized voice system can do wonders for keeping the chaos down in groups that have either of those types of gamers in it on something as long and complex as a raid (even TFOs often have people wandering around wondering what they are supposed to do, or doing things that are unhelpful or outright detrimental to meeting the objectives when a few spoken words could point them in the right direction).
None of those factors are deal breakers on their own, but together they can turn a lot of people off of doing the raids which makes creating raids a chancy proposition.
It does. But firing a weapon isn't generally as time-sensitive as jumping from one platform to another before the current platform becomes inaccessible/lethal.
Who's having trouble with reading comprehension again?
Clearly you are having issues since it is abundantly clear you are having difficulty following the conversation. If you want to TRIBBLE everyone and say that lag spikes are constant 100% of the time for everyone and it prevents people from jumping, go right ahead. It is totally incorrect, but you can make whatever erroneous claims you like.
100%?? Only a Sith deals in absolutes. YOU aren't ever experiencing lag spike, lucky you. It must be nice to never turn a corner and suddenly see that little red script at the top of the screen informing you that there are server connection issues. However, as you can see if you want to pull your head out of wherever you have it stuck and read the *actual* complaints, it *is* something that happens to quite a few people, and no one has control over when or if it happens. Has nothing to do with hand-eye coordination, despite your insistence that this is the *only* cause of such issues.
If you want raids so damn bad that you're willing to run down anyone who points out the issues with them, by all means go play something that has raids. Enjoy yourself. Life is too short to play a game you don't like.
Here's a list in rough chronological order of reasons given why raid like content is needed in Star Trek Online -
an expression of surprise that raid like content hasn't grown in over a decade.
a confirmation that accomplishing things as a team has consistently provided the greatest sense of reward
the suggestion that variety can be a refreshing change
the suggestion that more challenging content can often teach enriching lessons useful in real life
a comparison of current queue design being similar to offering fast food as both have little substance
an expression of concern that queues designed for events actually make their way into the TFO menu (cross contamination)
an expression of concern that STO's end game is limited
the possibility that a little variety is long overdue
the suggestion that threads seen asking for raid like content are seen on a regular basis perhaps because there's players looking for variety and challenge
the suggestion that what's been coming down the pipe as of late hasn't exactly been inspiring for many
the suggestion that other players need some love at times and not just the filthy casuals
the suggestion that offering some variety could result in a larger game population
a statistic was offered stating 15-20% of MMO populations were "advanced"
a suggestion that advanced players were being neglected
something about not wanting to eat fast food but it's the only menu being expanded
a clarification designed to calm those thinking along the narrow lines of old fashioned raids - there's room for compromise
a statement of not trying to be disrespectful of those liking other content
you're joking, right?
a statement that it can be a tough job providing an end game
a suggestion that not much of anything is achievable without some investment into the game
a suggestion that it's possible everybody wants the same thing - more of what they like
Here's a list in rough chronological order of reasons given why raid like content is needed in Star Trek Online -
....
a suggestion that not much of anything is achievable without some investment into the game
a suggestion that it's possible everybody wants the same thing - more of what they like
Yep, I don't disagree with any of that either.
It would be nice if Gearbox takes a look at STO and decides to try investing resources to grow it instead of following (what feels like) the PWE path of skimming the profits while leaving Cryptic with the bare minimum of resources. I don't expect it to happen but I'll be happy if my pessimism is proven wrong.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,183Community Moderator
Here's a list in rough chronological order of reasons given why raid like content is needed in Star Trek Online -
....
a suggestion that not much of anything is achievable without some investment into the game
a suggestion that it's possible everybody wants the same thing - more of what they like
Yep, I don't disagree with any of that either.
It would be nice if Gearbox takes a look at STO and decides to try investing resources to grow it instead of following (what feels like) the PWE path of skimming the profits while leaving Cryptic with the bare minimum of resources. I don't expect it to happen but I'll be happy if my pessimism is proven wrong.
I have a suspicion STO will be the real world Dil Mule equivalent. Hopefully I'm wrong but who knows.
i'd just be happy for more people queing for the 20 person fleet starbase defense. Maybe add it to the universal endeavor queue
It is doubtful that they would add anything that requires membership in a fleet to the universal endeavor since fleet membership is not itself universal.
They just need to do it like WoW does: split a longer raid into sections but also allow a group to play a higher difficulty combined version with higher loot.
They just need to do it like WoW does: split a longer raid into sections but also allow a group to play a higher difficulty combined version with higher loot.
It's simple suggestions such as this that really really highlights the power of a little creative thinking versus being a negative Nelly towards every suggestion that doesn't fit within a fixed mindset
Hopefully the next thread on improvements to the tailor is as well received as this thread has been. After all, everybody wants more of what they like ^^
We had a long thread here last year from someone failing over and over and over to get through the jumping section of that dominion arc ground mission. I don't play 3D platformers myself and it took me a few tries on each character to get past it.
The mario jumping thing sux even with good connections. i won't complete delta recruit because I absolutely HATE Dust to dust. I seriously enjoy going to the dentist more than that episode. when they do something like that they need to just respawn you on the other side after the third or 4th death
We Want Vic Fontaine
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,183Community Moderator
The mario jumping thing sux even with good connections. i won't complete delta recruit because I absolutely HATE Dust to dust. I seriously enjoy going to the dentist more than that episode. when they do something like that they need to just respawn you on the other side after the third or 4th death
Honest question: You using Shooter Mode or RPG Mode to hit the nodes in that section?
I admit I don't really like that particular section myself, but I've discovered that Shooter Mode allows for faster reactions on hitting the nodes than RPG mode, and you can turn with the mouse while rushing over the things.
Considering one of my preferred sets in game comes from Dust to Dust, I've gotten pretty decent at figuring that section out, and its really one of the only places left where I'll use Shooter Mode in game.
no, I don't use shooter mode.. I doubt i will try it. I hate that episode THAT MUCH. and for those in the thread that disparage people's eye/hand coordination.. Come on down. i'll outshoot you at the range and whip your TRIBBLE on the tennis court
We Want Vic Fontaine
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,183Community Moderator
no, I don't use shooter mode.. I doubt i will try it. I hate that episode THAT MUCH. and for those in the thread that disparage people's eye/hand coordination.. Come on down. i'll outshoot you at the range and whip your TRIBBLE on the tennis court
I was honestly trying to offer some potential adivce that could help on that section. I still sometimes have trouble on that part even with shooter mode. I just personally find I have more time to react while in Shooter Mode, and can turn to move around hazards that much faster.
I never use shooter mode in STO because the visual spam makes even seeing the target iffy, let alone actually targeting it. If I do a Dust to Dust in the future to get one of my Delta's through the whole transponder list I will try it though.
Dust to Dust? I don't like it much myself but not because of the platforming, that is as responsive as ground will ever be. The length and constant jabbering is the real test in that mission, space zombie ethics are none of my concern. I'd yoink a protomatter torp from the Tzenkethi and have done with it.
Mind you I am on console now, I forget how it went on PC.
I usually stuff that gamma section at least once per run though.
That personal transporter beacon (the one that, on triggering, creates a movable beacon that you can precisely position for a brief period and then instantly moves you straight to it) kit mod might very well be an excellent way to bypass the platform section (and maybe even the maze and zappy sections) of DTD assuming cryptic designed it a certain way and haven't already considered it might be used in that way and put in safeguards.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
That personal transporter beacon (the one that, on triggering, creates a movable beacon that you can precisely position for a brief period and then instantly moves you straight to it) kit mod might very well be an excellent way to bypass the platform section (and maybe even the maze and zappy sections) of DTD assuming cryptic designed it a certain way and haven't already considered it might be used in that way and put in safeguards.
It is too long a distance for most (and probably all) player teleport methods to bypass the trench and is rather pointless when on one of the platforms since the teleporter's pathfinding does not seem to work right with the platforms.
Also it's possible that under the hood those teleports are in fact really fast sprints, so even if you could technically reach over that distance the game won't allow it as you can't "run" over empty space. Some FF14 teleports use this method and thus they cannot be used to cross gaps in the geo even if the animation looks like it should allow it.
This could also explain why the path finding fails while on the platforms it's trying to find a path that simply isn't there to begin with.
EDIT:I need to head out now but I can make a diagram of what I mean later if people are confused with what I just typed.
While the jumping in Dust to Dust and Tenebris Torquent can be challenging due to the multitude of things going on, let's have a look at the more simplified jumping involved in one of the raid like Borg ground TFO's that doesn't involve shooting multiple targets, retracting platforms, or being chased by a large enemy.
As far as I can tell what is involved is resting the wrist at the edge of the keyboard and then pressing the W key to move forward with the middle finger and tapping the spacebar once with a thumb.
Summary: press one key then tap the space bar once to jump over an obstacle.
Apparently the WASD keys are widely used. In space, for example, they can be used to steer a ship and this is often done while simultaneously activating bridge officer abilities and hitting the spacebar to fire weapons, amongst other things.
Summary: press 4 WASD keys to steer ship while using another 30 or so keys for boff abilities, captain abilities, console clickies, reputation abilities, and devices while managing the throttle and tapping the space bar to fire weapons to operate a starship.
While the jumping in Dust to Dust and Tenebris Torquent can be challenging due to the multitude of things going on, let's have a look at the more simplified jumping involved in one of the raid like Borg ground TFO's that doesn't involve shooting multiple targets, retracting platforms, or being chased by a large enemy.
As far as I can tell what is involved is resting the wrist at the edge of the keyboard and then pressing the W key to move forward with the middle finger and tapping the spacebar once with a thumb.
Summary: press one key then tap the space bar once to jump over an obstacle.
Apparently the WASD keys are widely used. In space, for example, they can be used to steer a ship and this is often done while simultaneously activating bridge officer abilities and hitting the spacebar to fire weapons, amongst other things.
Summary: press 4 WASD keys to steer ship while using another 30 or so keys for boff abilities, captain abilities, console clickies, reputation abilities, and devices while managing the throttle and tapping the space bar to fire weapons to operate a starship.
Some people just use the mouse and space bar, two hands are better than one.
Sarcasm aside, you description needs to be amended slightly. The real summary is: press one key then tap the space bar once and at random times nothing happens when you tap it. Then quickly tap it again and hopefully get the server's attention this time before the platform retracts out from under you, but it is probably too late by then.
Another "fun" one is the same up until the "tap the space bar" step ,and this time it works, only to hit an invisible wall part way through the jump, which really isn't there, it is the server and your client pausing to sync back up after dead reconning because of a network glitch. When it is bad enough it becomes the dreaded "rubberbanding", at this level it is just a momentary glitch, but is enough of one to miss the next platform, especially if the server thinks you fell and so the compromise sets you just barely too low to clear the edge of that next platform.
If one of the races available in the game was a cartoon coyote then it would be the perfect scenario for it.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,183Community Moderator
My main issue with the platform section of DTD is simply that the platforms retract so fast... even on the supposedly "easy" setting, a lot of players, including me, find it very difficult.
Yea... I think it only gives you about 8 seconds on easy.
While the jumping in Dust to Dust and Tenebris Torquent can be challenging due to the multitude of things going on, let's have a look at the more simplified jumping involved in one of the raid like Borg ground TFO's that doesn't involve shooting multiple targets, retracting platforms, or being chased by a large enemy.
As far as I can tell what is involved is resting the wrist at the edge of the keyboard and then pressing the W key to move forward with the middle finger and tapping the spacebar once with a thumb.
Summary: press one key then tap the space bar once to jump over an obstacle.
Apparently the WASD keys are widely used. In space, for example, they can be used to steer a ship and this is often done while simultaneously activating bridge officer abilities and hitting the spacebar to fire weapons, amongst other things.
Summary: press 4 WASD keys to steer ship while using another 30 or so keys for boff abilities, captain abilities, console clickies, reputation abilities, and devices while managing the throttle and tapping the space bar to fire weapons to operate a starship.
Some people just use the mouse and space bar, two hands are better than one.
Sarcasm aside, you description needs to be amended slightly. The real summary is: press one key then tap the space bar once and at random times nothing happens when you tap it. Then quickly tap it again and hopefully get the server's attention this time before the platform retracts out from under you, but it is probably too late by then.
Another "fun" one is the same up until the "tap the space bar" step ,and this time it works, only to hit an invisible wall part way through the jump, which really isn't there, it is the server and your client pausing to sync back up after dead reconning because of a network glitch. When it is bad enough it becomes the dreaded "rubberbanding", at this level it is just a momentary glitch, but is enough of one to miss the next platform, especially if the server thinks you fell and so the compromise sets you just barely too low to clear the edge of that next platform.
If one of the races available in the game was a cartoon coyote then it would be the perfect scenario for it.
Well it's not just STO where this happen there's countless times in FF14 where my Miqo just walked off a platform in Gold Saucer jumping puzzle even though I pressed the space bar.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,183Community Moderator
Well it's not just STO where this happen there's countless times in FF14 where my Miqo just walked off a platform in Gold Saucer jumping puzzle even though I pressed the space bar.
Comments
Jonsills is right, ordinary combat moves and weapon firing are not as time-sensitive as platform jumping. I can confirm it from personal experience. And no, I am not on dialup or whatever you might think, I actually have a reasonably fast broadband connection except for those random lag spikes.
Also, my machine far exceeds the game minimum requirements, STO's requirements are quite low compared to some of the other games I play, and I play those just fine (except for the occasional precision timing thing that can get trashed by the spikes at times), so it is not a case of machine requirements either.
Maybe not specifically about the old Borg TFs, but you did make the claim in a wide sweeping statement:
That certainly sounds like you are blaming the whole problem on bad eye-hand coordination whether you meant it to sound that way or not. Reading comprehension factors into proofreading as well.
As for the chaos, you might be surprised how many casuals are not interested in hunting down walkthroughs and prefer to learn the ropes directly (or simply don't want to burn their usually limited gaming time with finding and studying walkthroughs), even if it annoys the oldschool raid-centric gamers.
Also some of the RP gamers don't use walkthroughs partly because it is immersion breaking to do that in the middle of a long gaming session and partly because in real life there are few if any walkthroughs so they want their character to do the content without them.
In most games (and I doubt STO is an exception) the casuals far outnumber everyone else, and likewise there are quite a few RP players in an MMORPG, especially one based on a wildly popular TV series like Star Trek, and a working standardized voice system can do wonders for keeping the chaos down in groups that have either of those types of gamers in it on something as long and complex as a raid (even TFOs often have people wandering around wondering what they are supposed to do, or doing things that are unhelpful or outright detrimental to meeting the objectives when a few spoken words could point them in the right direction).
None of those factors are deal breakers on their own, but together they can turn a lot of people off of doing the raids which makes creating raids a chancy proposition.
If you want raids so damn bad that you're willing to run down anyone who points out the issues with them, by all means go play something that has raids. Enjoy yourself. Life is too short to play a game you don't like.
an expression of surprise that raid like content hasn't grown in over a decade.
a confirmation that accomplishing things as a team has consistently provided the greatest sense of reward
the suggestion that variety can be a refreshing change
the suggestion that more challenging content can often teach enriching lessons useful in real life
a comparison of current queue design being similar to offering fast food as both have little substance
an expression of concern that queues designed for events actually make their way into the TFO menu (cross contamination)
an expression of concern that STO's end game is limited
the possibility that a little variety is long overdue
the suggestion that threads seen asking for raid like content are seen on a regular basis perhaps because there's players looking for variety and challenge
the suggestion that what's been coming down the pipe as of late hasn't exactly been inspiring for many
the suggestion that other players need some love at times and not just the filthy casuals
the suggestion that offering some variety could result in a larger game population
a statistic was offered stating 15-20% of MMO populations were "advanced"
a suggestion that advanced players were being neglected
something about not wanting to eat fast food but it's the only menu being expanded
a clarification designed to calm those thinking along the narrow lines of old fashioned raids - there's room for compromise
a statement of not trying to be disrespectful of those liking other content
you're joking, right?
a statement that it can be a tough job providing an end game
a suggestion that not much of anything is achievable without some investment into the game
a suggestion that it's possible everybody wants the same thing - more of what they like
Yep, I don't disagree with any of that either.
It would be nice if Gearbox takes a look at STO and decides to try investing resources to grow it instead of following (what feels like) the PWE path of skimming the profits while leaving Cryptic with the bare minimum of resources. I don't expect it to happen but I'll be happy if my pessimism is proven wrong.
I have a suspicion STO will be the real world Dil Mule equivalent. Hopefully I'm wrong but who knows.
It is doubtful that they would add anything that requires membership in a fleet to the universal endeavor since fleet membership is not itself universal.
It's been a while but pretty sure there's a PvP endeavor and not everybody does PvP so why not do something for Fleets once in a while also ?
It's simple suggestions such as this that really really highlights the power of a little creative thinking versus being a negative Nelly towards every suggestion that doesn't fit within a fixed mindset
Hopefully the next thread on improvements to the tailor is as well received as this thread has been. After all, everybody wants more of what they like ^^
The mario jumping thing sux even with good connections. i won't complete delta recruit because I absolutely HATE Dust to dust. I seriously enjoy going to the dentist more than that episode. when they do something like that they need to just respawn you on the other side after the third or 4th death
Honest question: You using Shooter Mode or RPG Mode to hit the nodes in that section?
I admit I don't really like that particular section myself, but I've discovered that Shooter Mode allows for faster reactions on hitting the nodes than RPG mode, and you can turn with the mouse while rushing over the things.
Considering one of my preferred sets in game comes from Dust to Dust, I've gotten pretty decent at figuring that section out, and its really one of the only places left where I'll use Shooter Mode in game.
I was honestly trying to offer some potential adivce that could help on that section. I still sometimes have trouble on that part even with shooter mode. I just personally find I have more time to react while in Shooter Mode, and can turn to move around hazards that much faster.
Mind you I am on console now, I forget how it went on PC.
I usually stuff that gamma section at least once per run though.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
It is too long a distance for most (and probably all) player teleport methods to bypass the trench and is rather pointless when on one of the platforms since the teleporter's pathfinding does not seem to work right with the platforms.
This could also explain why the path finding fails while on the platforms it's trying to find a path that simply isn't there to begin with.
EDIT:I need to head out now but I can make a diagram of what I mean later if people are confused with what I just typed.
As far as I can tell what is involved is resting the wrist at the edge of the keyboard and then pressing the W key to move forward with the middle finger and tapping the spacebar once with a thumb.
Summary: press one key then tap the space bar once to jump over an obstacle.
Apparently the WASD keys are widely used. In space, for example, they can be used to steer a ship and this is often done while simultaneously activating bridge officer abilities and hitting the spacebar to fire weapons, amongst other things.
Summary: press 4 WASD keys to steer ship while using another 30 or so keys for boff abilities, captain abilities, console clickies, reputation abilities, and devices while managing the throttle and tapping the space bar to fire weapons to operate a starship.
Some people just use the mouse and space bar, two hands are better than one.
Sarcasm aside, you description needs to be amended slightly. The real summary is: press one key then tap the space bar once and at random times nothing happens when you tap it. Then quickly tap it again and hopefully get the server's attention this time before the platform retracts out from under you, but it is probably too late by then.
Another "fun" one is the same up until the "tap the space bar" step ,and this time it works, only to hit an invisible wall part way through the jump, which really isn't there, it is the server and your client pausing to sync back up after dead reconning because of a network glitch. When it is bad enough it becomes the dreaded "rubberbanding", at this level it is just a momentary glitch, but is enough of one to miss the next platform, especially if the server thinks you fell and so the compromise sets you just barely too low to clear the edge of that next platform.
If one of the races available in the game was a cartoon coyote then it would be the perfect scenario for it.
Yea... I think it only gives you about 8 seconds on easy.
Well it's not just STO where this happen there's countless times in FF14 where my Miqo just walked off a platform in Gold Saucer jumping puzzle even though I pressed the space bar.
Fellow Miqo'te. Been there, done that.