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Pitch for raid-like operations to come to the game.
captainkrud1960
Member Posts: 29 Arc User
So to kick things off, I am aware that queues such as The Big Dig used to exist, however I wouldn’t necessarily qualify that as a raid, more like a protoype for what the battlezones would become.
So I have been playing this game since the beta. I have done everything that can possibly be done in this game (events not withstanding) and I feel like in order to really breathe some new variety into the game, raids should become a thing for this game to utilize. They do not need to be a five hour slog like a WoW or SWTOR raid, but I think the game could benefit from having like an hour - two hour long raid complete with multiple uniquely designed bosses per raid, maybe some puzzles thrown in as well. They don’t need to force the idea of dedicated classes like healers or tanks into these, but do keep the idea of working as a group to overcome a huge obstacle.
I’m not a level/mission designer by any means, but I believe that a great way to test this idea with the game’s populace could be to merge all the Borg TFOS into one mega operation (Infected, Cure, Khitomer, and Hive, both ground and space). They could rework some of the boss fights to be more difficult for this queue specifically, for example, take Infected and make it so instead of one single Tactical Cube warping in, it’s a Diamond flanked by a fleet of Tac cubes and spheres (ala Hive Onslaught) and then prompt the players to begin the ground queue, and do the same thing in terms of amping up the difficulty.
As for team sizes, I would say either a 10 or 15 man group would be the perfect fit for this. This could also be a gateway to finally allowing Klingon and Federation characters to finally team up.
I really do feel like if they added a few raids into the game, it could add a new level of difficulty that could allow players to put their best builds to the test. This does not need to be focused on DPS, just make the build you feel like will work best with the rest of your team for space and ground and if it doesn’t work, do as the Borg would and adapt.
I hope you all enjoy reading this and maybe drop your own ideas or suggestions below! Thank you and LLAP.
So I have been playing this game since the beta. I have done everything that can possibly be done in this game (events not withstanding) and I feel like in order to really breathe some new variety into the game, raids should become a thing for this game to utilize. They do not need to be a five hour slog like a WoW or SWTOR raid, but I think the game could benefit from having like an hour - two hour long raid complete with multiple uniquely designed bosses per raid, maybe some puzzles thrown in as well. They don’t need to force the idea of dedicated classes like healers or tanks into these, but do keep the idea of working as a group to overcome a huge obstacle.
I’m not a level/mission designer by any means, but I believe that a great way to test this idea with the game’s populace could be to merge all the Borg TFOS into one mega operation (Infected, Cure, Khitomer, and Hive, both ground and space). They could rework some of the boss fights to be more difficult for this queue specifically, for example, take Infected and make it so instead of one single Tactical Cube warping in, it’s a Diamond flanked by a fleet of Tac cubes and spheres (ala Hive Onslaught) and then prompt the players to begin the ground queue, and do the same thing in terms of amping up the difficulty.
As for team sizes, I would say either a 10 or 15 man group would be the perfect fit for this. This could also be a gateway to finally allowing Klingon and Federation characters to finally team up.
I really do feel like if they added a few raids into the game, it could add a new level of difficulty that could allow players to put their best builds to the test. This does not need to be focused on DPS, just make the build you feel like will work best with the rest of your team for space and ground and if it doesn’t work, do as the Borg would and adapt.
I hope you all enjoy reading this and maybe drop your own ideas or suggestions below! Thank you and LLAP.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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Like PVP, this would make a small number of players happy but would be ignored by the majority.
Most people PUG TFOs, and STO PUG teams struggle to learn even the simplest "stay out of the flashing circle of DOOM!" or listen to the voice telling them "Killy's ship is invulnerable, you that you need to destroy the shield ships" mechanics.
STO players are mostly very casual players who just want to dress up and fly their favorite ships going pew-pew-pew.
I include myself in the lazy casual group even though I do learn the TFO mechanics
^This^
This was what I was getting at in context to this thread. You could probably get a whole Away Team of Engie BOffs and go to town with drones and stuff, but that ain't gonna matter in a TFO where you don't have your BOffs. And since STO doesn't follow the Trinity of Tank/Healer/DPS, its a total free for all on just what you'll get in terms of abilities.
I'm actually quite surprised that over a decade after taking up this game that this sort of content hasn't grown in any meaningful way.
Have found that accomplishing things as a team has always provided a significant sense of reward.
It can be so refreshing to get the occasional TFO where more than mashing the spacebar is necessary.
Watching the casuals drag their injured carcasses through a Borg ground can be very rewarding as you know they're learning lessons and skills they can take with them to enrich other parts of their lives.
For those claiming that STO players are mainly casual I'd can only reply that it was McDonalds that invented fast food which resulted in people getting lazy and gaining weight.
Removing the fast food and getting back to basics is the only way out.
Also polluting the TFO menu with silly maps that were designed for an event is like dumping plastic into the ocean.
Both are unsightly and create a long term issue that effects everybody.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I stand corrected. But the point remains the same... the direction of a lot of the newer content is similar to fast food.
It's mostly garbage.
Offering something for those wanting a different diet once in a while would go a long way in promoting a healthy balance.
The OP certainly has my support.
Competitive Rep TFOs weren't that popular, especially with one having direct PvP element at the end.
TBH, like the visual spam, the SFX spam is loud enough that you don't always HEAR those queues. the halloween prompts were very hard to hear and see
I don't think anything like that is being asked for here.
Just a little variety perhaps for those that may sometimes like a change from the junk food diet the game can serve up.
Not everybody is necessarily a fan of an auto-complete orientated end game. Some may even find it shallow or boring.
Those TFO's were among my favorites though they would probably be considered easy nowadays with the power creep etc.
Agreed, the processed "spooky" voices for the Halloween event got lost in the aural spam.
For Jupiter Iratus the instructions were clear, but many players ignored them anyway
The point I was trying to make was that they DID try something different, and it wasn't exactly popular. I think Battlezones were relatively popular, but Gon'Cra ended up buggy and Gamma was glorified patrols. Badlands, Undine, and Voth are still relatively popular as far as I am aware.
If they DID try something new and it wasn't exactly popular does this mean they should never try anything again? That sounds like a recipe for stagnation, and possibly weight gain as well.
I still think that offering the player base a little variety is something that's long overdue and really isn't asking for much at all.
What was a resounding flop was having only one way to get the best gear in town. That changed years ago. The rest is a matter of opinion. Story telling to.
I think this type of thread calling for raid type content is seen on a regular basis because there are people out there looking for variety and challenge.
What's come down the pipe lately hasn't been too inspiring for them. They need some love to once in a while but don't seem to be getting much if anything at all.
Variety, it's the spice of life (and possibly game populations).
PVP fans argue that too, but "make a few players happy" is often bad for business.
If it costs Cryptic as much to build 1 raid as 3 TFOs, and 1 raid will make 5% happy while 3 TFOs will make 50% happy, which is the better choice for them?
STO isn't WoW or FFXIV, so saying "do both" is probably not realistic.
I can't disagree with the "make a few players happy" being bad business part. But according to Som those few players looking for additional flavor and challenge are more like 15-20%.
That's far greater than that other group you mentioned. I guess you could call the 15-20% "advanced players"
From my perspective given the nature of the content being released as of late it's possible that that group could be a little overdue even when accounting for business decisions and percentages.
It's things heading in this direction to the extent that it is that concerns me. Sometimes I'd like something different than fast food but it seems to be the only menu getting expanded.
Just to be clear, my own call is not so much for the full reintroduction of raids into the game but just some additional content of a slightly different nature than what has been offered the past while.
I'm also not trying to be disrespectful of anybody who enjoys that type of content as I enjoy more casual endeavors myself at times.
It can be a tough job providing an end game that keeps folks happy.
The cost/benefit to Cryptic -especially with the current multi-hat dev team setup- probably won't lean in favour of anything extravagant, I sure as heck wouldn't risk it given the temperature of this particular room.
MAYBE an event raid.
Speaking on a personal level, I'd like something meaty to take my ships into.
Jumping in an online game is never good, not everyone has the fast rock-solid connection needed to do that.
For instance, there is at least one mission that is literally impossible to get through in Secret World Legends without a near perfect connection because it has a section where you have to make quick precision jumps and that cannot be done on the decrepit cable TV based network I am on because of random lag spikes that are not bad enough to stop combat but are enough to throw off accurate jumping. The only way around that one is to team up with someone who has a stable enough connection to do the jumps because if you are teamed only one person in the team has to do it.
Jumping is one of those things that look like they would be a nice change of pace on paper but really do not work out in practice and a lot of people get annoyed by it instead. Making progress depend on something like that with even the minor instabilities of the Internet is just bad design, so STO not making more of it (there is still that horrible Kobali mission with it and that is more than enough jumping nonsense for an online game) is a smart move on their part.
As for the rest, it might be good if they made both the TFO and raid length versions of those things available at the same time, though I suspect that the raid version would never fill up except for the occasional fleet get-together run. One other stumbling block is the crude way teams work in the game and the ongoing problem of people getting dumped during map transfers that makes those transfers completely impractical during a TFO or other group scenario since they are likely to lose people at each transfer without a dependable way of getting them back in to a team scenario like that.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
People have different strengths and weaknesses. I was often getting max score for the omega particle game before I switched to just buying phoenix packs, and at the same time I'm lousy at the dil mining minigame. (I tell myself that it's because I've only played it 10 or so times over 8 years
I use the keyboard on that. Align the brackets via left/right, then adjust size up/down. Its a lot faster than clicking the buttons with the mouse.
For STO, the game used to have pseudo raids of sorts in the form of the old Borg STFs that used to be a combo of space and ground. It used to be that it would drop loot similar to a dungeon or raid run where you would be rolling against other folks for rep drops. While it did indeed function, many folks complained about it for a number of reasons. They felt the STFs were far too long, and many hated having to roll for rep drops. It was changed to what we ended up with today in part based on those complaints, as well as other reasons. Many of the queues with more than 5 people also didn't see as much play as others due to the fact it took so long to fill them up.
Before I came to STO in late 2012 early 2013 time, I was raiding quite a bit in WoW and doing OPs in SWTOR. I've seen raids that are relatively quick and easy, and some that make you want to pull your own hair out. For these raids it requires your tanks, healers, and DPS to bring their A game. They don't have to be gods among men at what they're doing, but they do have to at least be conscious at their keyboard and have a basic understanding of what they're doing with their build. If one person isn't pulling their weight and doesn't know what to do, they can cause a wipe for the other 10-40 people in the run. This is why in games like WoW, SWTOR, and many others that have actual raids, the game itself won't even let you in the door without having a certain amount of stats and gear on paper and/or certain achievements. It's also why many pre-made teams require even higher stats and knowledge than the game itself requires before they will take you on the run. For folks who aren't yet ready to enter raids, these games have paths for people to up their skill level and obtain gear. WoW has the dungeon journal to help prepare people by giving them a very basic rundown of what foes will do, dungeon journal also tells them where they can get certain bits of gear for their class and such, and the proving grounds help them practice. I've been a raid leader in other games, and a raid member. I can tell you from experience that trying to keep a raid together and on track is like herding cats. When you join a raid you are telling folks by default that you have at least the minimum required gear to be there, a basic knowledge of what you'll be doing with your class, can follow directions, and have at least a passing knowledge of the encounter. At the same time I can't tell you the number of times people would try to get into raids with subpar gear, and clearly not knowing what they were doing.
In STO I would say about 85% of the population we have in game wouldn't last 5 minutes in a more traditional MMO and are definitely NOT ready for any kind of raid content. Too many can't follow basic directions the game itself gives. They ignore basic mechanics trying sit there and space bar spam, then wonder why they're getting rolled. Too many folks go into TFOs with subpar rainbow builds thinking they're going to steamroll the instance, but do less overall damage than someone's hangar pets just auto attacking anything in range. When you dare try to offer legitimate help, they come at you with "quit being an elitist" or "I've been playing since beta so I know what i'm doing," yet are doing sub 3k DPS with a fully golded out ship. Just because you've been playing since beta doesn't mean you've been doing it right since beta. To illustrate this point, there is a guy in my fleet who has begged me for years to take him into a Battle of Korfez which is an Elite only queue. If anyone who may read this has ever played Korfez, you know you need to bring the thunder and your A game if you intend to get through that queue. If you don't make the DPS check off the initial groups and stay out of bad stuff, you will automatically fail the queue. I keep telling the dude that when he demonstrates to me he has reached the appropriate damage output level, and has improved his overall gameplay, I will happily take him into a Korfez. He says he wants to get better, yet anything myself or anyone else says goes in one ear and out the other. But somehow when I tell him he's not ready yet, I'm being an elitist by insisting he meet the basic criteria the game itself sets out, or it's too hard and needs to be nerfed. There are far far too many people like that in the STO community who fit that bill.
To make raids work in STO, there would need to be safeguards in place to prevent people from joining who are not yet ready so it doesn't ruin it for the rest of the people in the run. I'm all for folks getting access to content, but not before they're ready for it. You wouldn't just hand car keys to a kid who wasn't taught how to drive, so why would you want teammates in your raid group who aren't ready yet. Before anyone says anything note that I am saying YET meaning that once they've gotten the appropriate gear and knowledge, I'm all for them coming along. No matter where Cryptic set the bar, be it in the attic of Sto'vo'kor, or the basement of Gret'hor, there are always going to be people who simply cannot cut it for one reason or another, be it something out of their control, or something in their control. There would be people who would have to accept that they are not the target audience of said raid content. There are enough folks of that crowd who would feel alienated due to being unable to get into the raids, and it would get nerfed as a result or they would cry for the restrictions to be removed leading to raids being no better off than 5 man content is now. Again I'm all for folks playing content, but not before they're ready.
Now that I've probably made the "everyone should get to play" crowd mad, time to make the "we need raids" crowd mad. True raids like those you may see in WoW, SWTOR, or other games would not work in STO as it is right now. To make a raid work, you would need more than just spacebar and sci spam. While DPS has it's place, you would need Tanks, you would need support builds and builds dedicated to fulfilling the objectives. What form those builds would take I'll leave to you folks to imagine. If all you do is go into said raid and just DPS spam things to death, then it's not a true raid, but little more than a scaled up 5 man free for all.
Raids in other games work because you typically already have the holy trinity of Tank, DPS, Healer in place. Those roles already exist and were designed with that in mind from the ground up. With STO they would need to design around having more than just DPS and Tanks in there. I know to some folks that's like blasphemy but it is what it is. Also with those raids you would need to come up with a loot structure that is fair for all involved. This way you don't have one person ending up with every single piece of loot in there, especially if they already have better and are just taking it from folks who could use it. You would also need to decide what kind of loot is going to drop, and balance said loot drops so they don't impact other sources too negatively. If STO had done this earlier in its life, I could see it being possible. But now the adjustments needed wouldn't be worth the return. Folks already don't queue up for certain TFOs now that are deemed "too hard" or "too long". They sure as gret'hor won't join a raid. STO is what I would call baby's first MMO, or for folks who want to say they play an MMO without every single thing that comes with a traditional mmo.
In terms of balance they would also need to balance around a certain intended setup. Do they want to balance around all cruisers? Do they balance around all DPS and no tanks? Do they balance around a mix of DPS and tank? There's alot to consider when adding some of this magnitude and in STO's current life, it's just not going to happen barring radical changes I doubt most of the population would stomach. I don't think the "just add raids" crowd has thought through their proposal as far as they need to.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
I like the objectives for Gamma. the problem with it is 1. access to the gamma quadrant (if you don't have an alpha quadrant transwarp) and then once in the gamma quadrant having to schlep across the quadrant, and that there are only 3 zones. they should increase the zones to 6 at a minimum
Sigh.
You can unlock a Gamma transwarp through the Beta Dyson sphere via the Gamma storyline, plus you have the mission transwarp anyway via several ways.
And largely because they have fled to STO to escape things like WoW Raiding and all of it's inherent drama. I think it would be nice if they put some of the older stuff back in. It would be nice to play through the Borg TFO's in it's original long form Story mode. But then you stumble into the loot trap. The only way to get players to reliably show up to do the content is to dangle must have loot in front of them. Which leads to the viscious cycle of players doing stuff they don't necessarily like in order to progress, and subjecting themselves to ever more drama, abuse and anti social behavior. STO sits in a weird niche MMO wise.