I. Still. Maintain...instead of the whole horrible Spore business, it should have been Omega Discovery was experimenting with. And a large scale Omega explosion? That would have been terrific. Destroying the ability to fly at warp, but without killing all the Trill Symbiotes.
If Discovery jumped around, because it was using stabilized Omega Molecules, then I would be GAGGING and all would be forgiven.
I really don't understand though...in the 32nd Century and with no explanation for the burn, why was anyone taking the risk of using warp? And yet, they all were! Dilithium was a commodity, when it should have been considered a deadly, toxic and treated like leprosy! All the ships should have been using Quantum Slipstream or Soliton Waves, but not warp.
It. Did. Not. Make. Sense, since they couldn't explain what had happened.
I. Still. Maintain...instead of the whole horrible Spore business, it should have been Omega Discovery was experimenting with. And a large scale Omega explosion? That would have been terrific. Destroying the ability to fly at warp, but without killing all the Trill Symbiotes.
If Discovery jumped around, because it was using stabilized Omega Molecules, then I would be GAGGING and all would be forgiven.
I really don't understand though...in the 32nd Century and with no explanation for the burn, why was anyone taking the risk of using warp? And yet, they all were! Dilithium was a commodity, when it should have been considered a deadly, toxic and treated like leprosy! All the ships should have been using Quantum Slipstream or Soliton Waves, but not warp.
It. Did. Not. Make. Sense, since they couldn't explain what had happened.
Dependency makes you do strange things. Look at our commitment to fossil fuels.
I imagine people that look at detached nacelles are like the first sailors that saw a steam powered ship. They probably asked “Where do you put the sails?”
That's a good point. Because based on everything we know, there still needs to be EPS Conduits feeding power to the nacelles. Which means that in the 32nd Century they must have figured out how to transfer power remotely from the warp core, or developed some other system.
The would be no need to have a warp core onboard the ship.
'Warp' works by creating a bubble around a ship and warps (and/or 'folds') space in order to bypass the inviolate law, that nothing can travel faster than light. Which means the ship itself does not move, the space around is 'warped' so that the distance between 'A' and 'B' becomes shorter.
Getting back to the main point, to the EPS/Warp core connection. There would be no requirement for any such connection to the ship. A sufficiantly powered set of nacelles could create the required warp field/bubble around the ship. Therefore the ship could have an indepedent power source from the nacelles.
The above scenario is unlikley to work with impulse (sublight) drives however, as in this case, the ship actually is moving, and would require the momentem from engine connected to the ship in order to create propulsion.
In essesence, the is nothing stopping detatched (and self powered) nacelles creating a sufficiant warp bubble in order for a ship to reach warp 'speeds'.
Detached Nacelles wasn't a new concept the Discovery writers created, it was in the works since 2005 with ENT, Doug Drexler wanted Detached Nacelles on the Enterprise J but He couldn't do it due to how limited the technology was back then, so we ended up with a ugly worthless piece of junk instead.
I think even Scotty would be hard-pressed to defend the J's honor...probably doesn't help it doesn't really have ample nacelles - more like stick twig nacelles.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
All the ships should have been using Quantum Slipstream or Soliton Waves, but not warp.
It. Did. Not. Make. Sense, since they couldn't explain what had happened.
But they did. Quantum slipstream requires something (can't remember what it was called, but Book mentioned it) that's harder to get than dilithium. Transwarp is dangerous because the passages are crowded with the remains of ships that were underway in them when the Burn happened. Soliton waves, as you might recall from TNG, have a tendency to not stop, potentially destroying planets (this is a bad thing). Standard warp was dangerous only because they didn't know what caused the Burn, or if it might happen again; now that the Discovery's crew has solved the issue, and found a rich dilithium source in the process, warp drive is back, bay-bee!
(Other civilizations may not have been affected, as noted above, or they may not have been quite so gun-shy as the Federation about resuming warp travel with whatever dilithium remained. The Emerald Chain certainly wasn't shy about it, they were just hoarding their resources.)
All the ships should have been using Quantum Slipstream or Soliton Waves, but not warp.
It. Did. Not. Make. Sense, since they couldn't explain what had happened.
But they did. Quantum slipstream requires something (can't remember what it was called, but Book mentioned it) that's harder to get than dilithium. Transwarp is dangerous because the passages are crowded with the remains of ships that were underway in them when the Burn happened. Soliton waves, as you might recall from TNG, have a tendency to not stop, potentially destroying planets (this is a bad thing). Standard warp was dangerous only because they didn't know what caused the Burn, or if it might happen again; now that the Discovery's crew has solved the issue, and found a rich dilithium source in the process, warp drive is back, bay-bee!
(Other civilizations may not have been affected, as noted above, or they may not have been quite so gun-shy as the Federation about resuming warp travel with whatever dilithium remained. The Emerald Chain certainly wasn't shy about it, they were just hoarding their resources.)
I would have preffered if they had (as Star Trek has tried to adhere to in the past) stuck to what science already has to say about 'warping space'.
We know for instance, that any signifcant body of mass, 'warps' space in some way or form. Black holes (and in particular, 'super massive' black holes, warp and deform space in such a manner that the 'space' no longer functions in a manner humans can interact with).
But despite natural phenomena warping/stretching space to it's utter extremes (such as the aforementioned supermassive black holes) and the fact they have done this for billions of years, without any signifcant 'damage' to the rest of space, would suggest to me, any puny warp drive would have little effect.
I thought 'all good things' was an excellent end, to an excellent series. The 'damage' caused by warp drive was largely addressed by 'variable height' nacessles (such as sported by Voyager). And that was the end of it.
What the latest series has brought in with 'the burn' seems (to me) just an excuse to make what was already a dark take on the Trek' franchise, even more darker and more dystopian.
I used to really enjoy Star Trek (each and every series) up until Discovery. I've tried my best to like it, and I never thought I would ever get bored of any Star Trek series (Ive probably watched ALL of DS9 about 20 times, and even the 'weaker series' ENT/VOY about 9 or 10 times.
In comparison, I find myself pausing Discovery to have a break from the constant 'downer' feel. And often not bothering to restart it again. I have no problems with the actors, I think they are all very good. I just dont feel any connection with the story lines, I find my mind wandering, rather than being riveted by whats going to happen next (remember Sisko/Dukat in that cave? - Picard/Wesely in THAT cave?, Ive never (ever) had the kind of feeling like that from ANY Discovery episode).
What the latest series has brought in with 'the burn' seems (to me) just an excuse to make what was already a dark take on the Trek' franchise, even more darker and more dystopian.
Except the future wasn't dark or dystopian, even with the Burn.
As we clearly see with planets like Earth, Trill, Ni'var, Kaminar, Hima, even with the Burn these planets were still fairly utopian. With things like replicators eliminating any sort of real resources problems outside of Dilthium. The only thing Dilithium did was make it harder to get from one planet to another, making them more insular. But the actual quality of life on these worlds hasn't really changed.
The only issues we really see are far off colony worlds being isolated... which was a fairly consistent issue even back in TNG.
Hell, Discovery in general isn't even dark. In fact, its very optimistic. Its a show that constantly tries to tell the main characters that there is no way they can achieve what they desire because its so out there... yet through hard work and determination the end up making everything they want happen.
Perhaps we see different things. To me, ENT/TNG/DS9/VOY (despite some weak episodes), always had me riveted, I could never wait to see what happened never. Even when I re-watched an episode I have watched a dozen times, I can watch it again and get the same feeling. Because the stories were (for the most part) well written, and a mixture of dark/lighthearted vignettes, that (even when they had no direct story arc) led to character development which made certain scenes all the more poigant.
I can remember when Picard first saw Wesley on the bridge and cringed (turning and saying 'shes brought a CHILD on my bridge!). I then remember 'picard day', where he is mortified when another officer comes on the ship to find out the children are 'celebrating' the captain.
He then has to learn how to deal/relate with the children when a shipwide problem occurs. And then we have one of the final scenes later in the season when Wesely is about to leave the ship. They are both in a cave, Picard seriously injured, and he talks about how he 'envies' Wesley, how he's going to be doing it all from 'scratch', and getting to experience life from the perspective of a young man.
That kind of character develoment gave me tingles, and it's something that is (for me) abscent in Disgovery. There are tears, there is drama, but I personally feel zero connection to any of the characters and that's why I find it so uninteresting.
That's just me, other people may feel very differently.
All the ships should have been using Quantum Slipstream or Soliton Waves, but not warp.
It. Did. Not. Make. Sense, since they couldn't explain what had happened.
But they did. Quantum slipstream requires something (can't remember what it was called, but Book mentioned it) that's harder to get than dilithium. Transwarp is dangerous because the passages are crowded with the remains of ships that were underway in them when the Burn happened. Soliton waves, as you might recall from TNG, have a tendency to not stop, potentially destroying planets (this is a bad thing). Standard warp was dangerous only because they didn't know what caused the Burn, or if it might happen again; now that the Discovery's crew has solved the issue, and found a rich dilithium source in the process, warp drive is back, bay-bee!
(Other civilizations may not have been affected, as noted above, or they may not have been quite so gun-shy as the Federation about resuming warp travel with whatever dilithium remained. The Emerald Chain certainly wasn't shy about it, they were just hoarding their resources.)
I would have preffered if they had (as Star Trek has tried to adhere to in the past) stuck to what science already has to say about 'warping space'.
We know for instance, that any signifcant body of mass, 'warps' space in some way or form. Black holes (and in particular, 'super massive' black holes, warp and deform space in such a manner that the 'space' no longer functions in a manner humans can interact with).
But despite natural phenomena warping/stretching space to it's utter extremes (such as the aforementioned supermassive black holes) and the fact they have done this for billions of years, without any signifcant 'damage' to the rest of space, would suggest to me, any puny warp drive would have little effect.
I thought 'all good things' was an excellent end, to an excellent series. The 'damage' caused by warp drive was largely addressed by 'variable height' nacessles (such as sported by Voyager). And that was the end of it.
What the latest series has brought in with 'the burn' seems (to me) just an excuse to make what was already a dark take on the Trek' franchise, even more darker and more dystopian.
I used to really enjoy Star Trek (each and every series) up until Discovery. I've tried my best to like it, and I never thought I would ever get bored of any Star Trek series (Ive probably watched ALL of DS9 about 20 times, and even the 'weaker series' ENT/VOY about 9 or 10 times.
In comparison, I find myself pausing Discovery to have a break from the constant 'downer' feel. And often not bothering to restart it again. I have no problems with the actors, I think they are all very good. I just dont feel any connection with the story lines, I find my mind wandering, rather than being riveted by whats going to happen next (remember Sisko/Dukat in that cave? - Picard/Wesely in THAT cave?, Ive never (ever) had the kind of feeling like that from ANY Discovery episode).
Anyhoo, end of rant, went off on a tangent there.
(Emphasis added)
I'm just curious now, how puny is warp drive compared to a black hole in terms of its effect on space?
Light cannot escape a black hole. But warping allows for speeds that are much higher than that of light. So you'd think that creating a warp bubble actually has a much greater effect on its surroundings than even that of a black hole has on its.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
All the ships should have been using Quantum Slipstream or Soliton Waves, but not warp.
It. Did. Not. Make. Sense, since they couldn't explain what had happened.
But they did. Quantum slipstream requires something (can't remember what it was called, but Book mentioned it) that's harder to get than dilithium. Transwarp is dangerous because the passages are crowded with the remains of ships that were underway in them when the Burn happened. Soliton waves, as you might recall from TNG, have a tendency to not stop, potentially destroying planets (this is a bad thing). Standard warp was dangerous only because they didn't know what caused the Burn, or if it might happen again; now that the Discovery's crew has solved the issue, and found a rich dilithium source in the process, warp drive is back, bay-bee!
(Other civilizations may not have been affected, as noted above, or they may not have been quite so gun-shy as the Federation about resuming warp travel with whatever dilithium remained. The Emerald Chain certainly wasn't shy about it, they were just hoarding their resources.)
I would have preffered if they had (as Star Trek has tried to adhere to in the past) stuck to what science already has to say about 'warping space'.
We know for instance, that any signifcant body of mass, 'warps' space in some way or form. Black holes (and in particular, 'super massive' black holes, warp and deform space in such a manner that the 'space' no longer functions in a manner humans can interact with).
But despite natural phenomena warping/stretching space to it's utter extremes (such as the aforementioned supermassive black holes) and the fact they have done this for billions of years, without any signifcant 'damage' to the rest of space, would suggest to me, any puny warp drive would have little effect.
I thought 'all good things' was an excellent end, to an excellent series. The 'damage' caused by warp drive was largely addressed by 'variable height' nacessles (such as sported by Voyager). And that was the end of it.
What the latest series has brought in with 'the burn' seems (to me) just an excuse to make what was already a dark take on the Trek' franchise, even more darker and more dystopian.
I used to really enjoy Star Trek (each and every series) up until Discovery. I've tried my best to like it, and I never thought I would ever get bored of any Star Trek series (Ive probably watched ALL of DS9 about 20 times, and even the 'weaker series' ENT/VOY about 9 or 10 times.
In comparison, I find myself pausing Discovery to have a break from the constant 'downer' feel. And often not bothering to restart it again. I have no problems with the actors, I think they are all very good. I just dont feel any connection with the story lines, I find my mind wandering, rather than being riveted by whats going to happen next (remember Sisko/Dukat in that cave? - Picard/Wesely in THAT cave?, Ive never (ever) had the kind of feeling like that from ANY Discovery episode).
Anyhoo, end of rant, went off on a tangent there.
(Emphasis added)
I'm just curious now, how puny is warp drive compared to a black hole in terms of its effect on space?
Light cannot escape a black hole. But warping allows for speeds that are much higher than that of light. So you'd think that creating a warp bubble actually has a much greater effect on its surroundings than even that of a black hole has on its.
Rather than answer myself (because I'll probably talk too long, and maybe even give you the wrong answer)
I'll refer you to someone else who has already looked at the 'problem' of creating a warp drive, without the same constraints of creating an infinitely dense area, as those manifested by a black hole, whilst still allowing faster than light speed:
"1994, Miguel Alcubierre, a Mexican theoretical physicist, showed that compressing spacetime in front of the spaceship while expanding it behind was mathematically possible within the laws of General Relativity."
(Other civilizations may not have been affected, as noted above, or they may not have been quite so gun-shy as the Federation about resuming warp travel with whatever dilithium remained. The Emerald Chain certainly wasn't shy about it, they were just hoarding their resources.)
Singularity Cores would definitely would be unaffected by the Burn but that Knowledge is so secretly guarded that not even Vulcans use it even after the reunification.
All the ships should have been using Quantum Slipstream or Soliton Waves, but not warp.
It. Did. Not. Make. Sense, since they couldn't explain what had happened.
But they did. Quantum slipstream requires something (can't remember what it was called, but Book mentioned it) that's harder to get than dilithium. Transwarp is dangerous because the passages are crowded with the remains of ships that were underway in them when the Burn happened. Soliton waves, as you might recall from TNG, have a tendency to not stop, potentially destroying planets (this is a bad thing). Standard warp was dangerous only because they didn't know what caused the Burn, or if it might happen again; now that the Discovery's crew has solved the issue, and found a rich dilithium source in the process, warp drive is back, bay-bee!
(Other civilizations may not have been affected, as noted above, or they may not have been quite so gun-shy as the Federation about resuming warp travel with whatever dilithium remained. The Emerald Chain certainly wasn't shy about it, they were just hoarding their resources.)
I would have preffered if they had (as Star Trek has tried to adhere to in the past) stuck to what science already has to say about 'warping space'.
We know for instance, that any signifcant body of mass, 'warps' space in some way or form. Black holes (and in particular, 'super massive' black holes, warp and deform space in such a manner that the 'space' no longer functions in a manner humans can interact with).
But despite natural phenomena warping/stretching space to it's utter extremes (such as the aforementioned supermassive black holes) and the fact they have done this for billions of years, without any signifcant 'damage' to the rest of space, would suggest to me, any puny warp drive would have little effect.
I thought 'all good things' was an excellent end, to an excellent series. The 'damage' caused by warp drive was largely addressed by 'variable height' nacessles (such as sported by Voyager). And that was the end of it.
What the latest series has brought in with 'the burn' seems (to me) just an excuse to make what was already a dark take on the Trek' franchise, even more darker and more dystopian.
I used to really enjoy Star Trek (each and every series) up until Discovery. I've tried my best to like it, and I never thought I would ever get bored of any Star Trek series (Ive probably watched ALL of DS9 about 20 times, and even the 'weaker series' ENT/VOY about 9 or 10 times.
In comparison, I find myself pausing Discovery to have a break from the constant 'downer' feel. And often not bothering to restart it again. I have no problems with the actors, I think they are all very good. I just dont feel any connection with the story lines, I find my mind wandering, rather than being riveted by whats going to happen next (remember Sisko/Dukat in that cave? - Picard/Wesely in THAT cave?, Ive never (ever) had the kind of feeling like that from ANY Discovery episode).
Anyhoo, end of rant, went off on a tangent there.
(Emphasis added)
I'm just curious now, how puny is warp drive compared to a black hole in terms of its effect on space?
Light cannot escape a black hole. But warping allows for speeds that are much higher than that of light. So you'd think that creating a warp bubble actually has a much greater effect on its surroundings than even that of a black hole has on its.
Rather than answer myself (because I'll probably talk too long, and maybe even give you the wrong answer)
I'll refer you to someone else who has already looked at the 'problem' of creating a warp drive, without the same constraints of creating an infinitely dense area, as those manifested by a black hole, whilst still allowing faster than light speed:
"1994, Miguel Alcubierre, a Mexican theoretical physicist, showed that compressing spacetime in front of the spaceship while expanding it behind was mathematically possible within the laws of General Relativity."
You left out a few parts. According to Lentz (at the University of Göttingen), a 100 m radius spacecraft would require the energy equivalent to “hundreds of times of the mass of the planet Jupiter.” He adds that to be practical, this requirement would have to be reduced by about 30 orders of magnitude to be on par with the output of a modern nuclear fission reactor. He also mentions a 'Horizon' problem: “A warp bubble travelling faster than light cannot be created from inside the bubble, as the leading edge of the bubble would be beyond the reach of a spaceship sitting at its centre.”
Perhaps we see different things. To me, ENT/TNG/DS9/VOY (despite some weak episodes), always had me riveted, I could never wait to see what happened never. Even when I re-watched an episode I have watched a dozen times, I can watch it again and get the same feeling. Because the stories were (for the most part) well written, and a mixture of dark/lighthearted vignettes, that (even when they had no direct story arc) led to character development which made certain scenes all the more poigant.
I can remember when Picard first saw Wesley on the bridge and cringed (turning and saying 'shes brought a CHILD on my bridge!). I then remember 'picard day', where he is mortified when another officer comes on the ship to find out the children are 'celebrating' the captain.
He then has to learn how to deal/relate with the children when a shipwide problem occurs. And then we have one of the final scenes later in the season when Wesely is about to leave the ship. They are both in a cave, Picard seriously injured, and he talks about how he 'envies' Wesley, how he's going to be doing it all from 'scratch', and getting to experience life from the perspective of a young man.
That kind of character develoment gave me tingles, and it's something that is (for me) abscent in Disgovery. There are tears, there is drama, but I personally feel zero connection to any of the characters and that's why I find it so uninteresting.
That's just me, other people may feel very differently.
Perhaps, the only Trek show that had be "riveted" was DS9, because it was the only Trek show with a real ongoing plot, and characters.
TOS, TNG, VOY, and most of ENT, were entertaining to watch, but the episodic nature meant you instantly knew nothing was really ever going to happen, or really matter, to the characters, since the characters couldn't change in order to keep the episodic nature of the show, and so people didn't get confused on why characters acted different now.
This resulted in non-progress stories like Data's in TNG, where he spends the entire run of the show making the same dumb "I don't understand this because I am a robot" mistakes, and all "progress" he makes on becoming human ends up negated, or HEAVILY suppressed to the point of uselessness, just so theycan have the same episodes over and over... and then he just dies in a poor way in Nemesis.
The same is true of Picard. Picard never really changes as a character. Even after getting assimilated, and then deassimilated, he has like 1-2 episodes of PTSD, then was right back to how he was the rest of the show, and remained that way otuside of one or two episodes they decided to bring his PTSD up again. There isn't any real development for Picard, there are just two Picards they bring out whenever suits them.
Honestly, I saw more genuine character development out of Picard from the 10 episode S1 of Picard then I saw out of the 176 episodes of TNG.
The newer shows are far more like DS9 in that regard because, like DS9, they have an ongoing narrative, which means things like character development have to be maintained in order to keep the story going as it should.
I would disagree with you there. I saw a very strong level of character development from the intitial introduction of data, to the later episodes, questioning his self determination (Measure of a man) and even later, during a crisis in which he is assigned to another ship (United) In which Data fights 'racism' in order to get other crew members to listen to him (and even initially Picard to assign him) to stop a Romulan incursion.
Similarly with Picard. I can see his character progression, even with what I mentioned above regarding Wesley. We can see him evolve and react to his assimilation by the Borg, and this even crossed into the boundry of DS9 (Sisko speaks to him very disrespectfully, but Picards lets it (unusually) go, as he was involved in killing Sisko's wife when assimilated as Locutus. This also follows on into the film (First Contact) were Picard is ordered away from the Borg incursion, and is regarded as suspect by the Federation.
In comparison to the new series. Let us take the 'Red Angel' arc as comparison. It turns out that 'Red Angel' was the mother of Michael. Despite all the 'tears' and dramatic music and all the built up... it had zero effect on me.
Because they did not take time to develop the relationship between the two characters, there was zero connection between the viewer and the story, and thus it fell flat. And you think. Oh... Ok.
Instead of thinking... Oh... Wow! (and then having an actual emotional response) And wanting to watch it again some other time.
But it takes all sorts to make the world go around. What makes some people tick/react, may not work for others. I have had prettey much zero reaction/investment in Discovery, despite trying my hardest.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,067Community Moderator
Singularity Cores would definitely would be unaffected by the Burn but that Knowledge is so secretly guarded that not even Vulcans use it even after the reunification.
We don't know that for certain. We know for a fact that Dilithium is important to regulate a Matter/Antimatter reaction. We don't know how a Singularity Core works, or if Dilithium is a component in that or not. So we really cannot say one way or the other at all. On top of that, you'd think by the 32nd Century others besides the Romulans would have figured out Singularity Cores, and if that was the case, why don't we see more of them? Why is the basic Matter/Antimatter Core still a thing?
My guess, its a lot more reliable than a Singularity Core and far easier to maintain while still producing the same energy output of a comparable Singularity Core.
Singularity Cores would definitely would be unaffected by the Burn but that Knowledge is so secretly guarded that not even Vulcans use it even after the reunification.
We don't know that for certain. We know for a fact that Dilithium is important to regulate a Matter/Antimatter reaction. We don't know how a Singularity Core works, or if Dilithium is a component in that or not. So we really cannot say one way or the other at all. On top of that, you'd think by the 32nd Century others besides the Romulans would have figured out Singularity Cores, and if that was the case, why don't we see more of them? Why is the basic Matter/Antimatter Core still a thing?
My guess, its a lot more reliable than a Singularity Core and far easier to maintain while still producing the same energy output of a comparable Singularity Core.
it's also safer than a singularity core, mini black holes would be extremely dangerous.
Only when they evaporate, because the smaller the black hole, the shorter it lasts, the more energy it generates and the more volatile it is once it evaporates - one the size seen in romulan ships would probably go off with the power of a thermonuclear bomb of a yield of dozens of megatons, if not gigatons.
Funnily enough, that also means this little exchange from the Wormhole Xtreme episode of Stargate SG-1 about an exploding singularity is, itself, wrong:
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Now, maybe I'm in the minority to not find Detached Warp Nacelles cool, or to believe the "science" behind them, but I personally believe that the whole point of Disco creating them, is to use more CGI.
I can't think of any other reason for pieces of a hull to be floating away from the rest of the ship, (especially the Janeway, with the saucer floating free) and you are not telling me that there's some sort of beam that could hit those gaps...Tachyon, Antithoron, Radion, Polaron, Antichroniton that could disrupt that weird matter and send the pieces flying off.
If I were the bad guy and saw that design, my entire purpose in an attack would be to do exactly that and you're not telling me that someone wouldn't succeed. It's a vulnerability, with a Producer Driven reason behind it.
In my humble opinion.
Nacelles have always been a vulnerability remember in tng when that ship came out of that time rift and hit the enterprises nacelle effectively destroying the whole ship. The way i see it nacelles are tied directly to the warp core so if you had them separated until need be then it would be safer. why the thread got hijacked into some warp 10 nonsense is beyond me.
*gets out ancient trek fan walker and wanders into topic*
Back in the days before Roddenberry kickstarted Trek with TNG. And before we had the legendary TNG Technical Manual for television writers to have next to them, there was no such thing as a lava lamp-like warp core in the secondary hull of the starship Enterprise. Many (including myself) understood that all matter/antimatter reaction took place within each of the two warp nacelles. The sparkling and spinning effect at the front of those nacelles was the reaction chamber. The control computer of the engine room which maintained the delicate formula - with help from dilithium - for balancing the power to obtain warp speeds. Nacelles purposely kept out at a distance for safety reasons.
The refit starship seen in The Motion Picture was understood to show us a new approach. New, streamlined nacelles. The matter/anti-matter now being central within the secondary hull.
When the TNG Technical Manual was published, we were forced to shoehorn that interpretation retroactively to TOS. Before the films. I grumbled. But there it was. Written by Sternbach in black and white and considered the standard from that point.
I thought it might prove interesting if the old-school approach were to be what the 32nd century warp drive approach had actually evolved toward.
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All the ships should have been using Quantum Slipstream or Soliton Waves, but not warp.
It. Did. Not. Make. Sense, since they couldn't explain what had happened.
But they did. Quantum slipstream requires something (can't remember what it was called, but Book mentioned it) that's harder to get than dilithium. Transwarp is dangerous because the passages are crowded with the remains of ships that were underway in them when the Burn happened. Soliton waves, as you might recall from TNG, have a tendency to not stop, potentially destroying planets (this is a bad thing). Standard warp was dangerous only because they didn't know what caused the Burn, or if it might happen again; now that the Discovery's crew has solved the issue, and found a rich dilithium source in the process, warp drive is back, bay-bee!
(Other civilizations may not have been affected, as noted above, or they may not have been quite so gun-shy as the Federation about resuming warp travel with whatever dilithium remained. The Emerald Chain certainly wasn't shy about it, they were just hoarding their resources.)
Benamite, but that was at the heart of VOYAGER'S engine. I don't think Species 116 used it...and what was Booker using, because he might not have seen it (annoyingly) but he mentioned it.
What the latest series has brought in with 'the burn' seems (to me) just an excuse to make what was already a dark take on the Trek' franchise, even more darker and more dystopian.
Except the future wasn't dark or dystopian, even with the Burn.
As we clearly see with planets like Earth, Trill, Ni'var, Kaminar, Hima, even with the Burn these planets were still fairly utopian. With things like replicators eliminating any sort of real resources problems outside of Dilthium. The only thing Dilithium did was make it harder to get from one planet to another, making them more insular. But the actual quality of life on these worlds hasn't really changed.
The only issues we really see are far off colony worlds being isolated... which was a fairly consistent issue even back in TNG.
Hell, Discovery in general isn't even dark. In fact, its very optimistic. Its a show that constantly tries to tell the main characters that there is no way they can achieve what they desire because its so out there... yet through hard work and determination the end up making everything they want happen.
Perhaps we see different things. To me, ENT/TNG/DS9/VOY (despite some weak episodes), always had me riveted, I could never wait to see what happened never. Even when I re-watched an episode I have watched a dozen times, I can watch it again and get the same feeling. Because the stories were (for the most part) well written, and a mixture of dark/lighthearted vignettes, that (even when they had no direct story arc) led to character development which made certain scenes all the more poigant.
I can remember when Picard first saw Wesley on the bridge and cringed (turning and saying 'shes brought a CHILD on my bridge!). I then remember 'picard day', where he is mortified when another officer comes on the ship to find out the children are 'celebrating' the captain.
He then has to learn how to deal/relate with the children when a shipwide problem occurs. And then we have one of the final scenes later in the season when Wesely is about to leave the ship. They are both in a cave, Picard seriously injured, and he talks about how he 'envies' Wesley, how he's going to be doing it all from 'scratch', and getting to experience life from the perspective of a young man.
That kind of character develoment gave me tingles, and it's something that is (for me) abscent in Disgovery. There are tears, there is drama, but I personally feel zero connection to any of the characters and that's why I find it so uninteresting.
That's just me, other people may feel very differently.
I'm ashamed to admit that I can't remember, but it was either a Wednesday or a Thursday and Voyager and DS9 were airing at the same time. And it had ME riveted too. Two series running at the same time and I'm still just only sorry there wasn't any crossover. I still say that the Defiant could have gone onto a mission into the Badlands to find Voyager and bumped into the Marquis, who were searching for Chakotay at the same time.
(Other civilizations may not have been affected, as noted above, or they may not have been quite so gun-shy as the Federation about resuming warp travel with whatever dilithium remained. The Emerald Chain certainly wasn't shy about it, they were just hoarding their resources.)
Singularity Cores would definitely would be unaffected by the Burn but that Knowledge is so secretly guarded that not even Vulcans use it even after the reunification.
It's true and the Romulans (and I wish the Remans) should have taken over the Alpha Quadrant. Discovery turning up to find that having happened would have been great...not Orion Slave Girls clothed and arguing with the guy from Charmed.
Perhaps we see different things. To me, ENT/TNG/DS9/VOY (despite some weak episodes), always had me riveted, I could never wait to see what happened never. Even when I re-watched an episode I have watched a dozen times, I can watch it again and get the same feeling. Because the stories were (for the most part) well written, and a mixture of dark/lighthearted vignettes, that (even when they had no direct story arc) led to character development which made certain scenes all the more poigant.
I can remember when Picard first saw Wesley on the bridge and cringed (turning and saying 'shes brought a CHILD on my bridge!). I then remember 'picard day', where he is mortified when another officer comes on the ship to find out the children are 'celebrating' the captain.
He then has to learn how to deal/relate with the children when a shipwide problem occurs. And then we have one of the final scenes later in the season when Wesely is about to leave the ship. They are both in a cave, Picard seriously injured, and he talks about how he 'envies' Wesley, how he's going to be doing it all from 'scratch', and getting to experience life from the perspective of a young man.
That kind of character develoment gave me tingles, and it's something that is (for me) abscent in Disgovery. There are tears, there is drama, but I personally feel zero connection to any of the characters and that's why I find it so uninteresting.
That's just me, other people may feel very differently.
Perhaps, the only Trek show that had be "riveted" was DS9, because it was the only Trek show with a real ongoing plot, and characters.
TOS, TNG, VOY, and most of ENT, were entertaining to watch, but the episodic nature meant you instantly knew nothing was really ever going to happen, or really matter, to the characters, since the characters couldn't change in order to keep the episodic nature of the show, and so people didn't get confused on why characters acted different now.
This resulted in non-progress stories like Data's in TNG, where he spends the entire run of the show making the same dumb "I don't understand this because I am a robot" mistakes, and all "progress" he makes on becoming human ends up negated, or HEAVILY suppressed to the point of uselessness, just so theycan have the same episodes over and over... and then he just dies in a poor way in Nemesis.
The same is true of Picard. Picard never really changes as a character. Even after getting assimilated, and then deassimilated, he has like 1-2 episodes of PTSD, then was right back to how he was the rest of the show, and remained that way otuside of one or two episodes they decided to bring his PTSD up again. There isn't any real development for Picard, there are just two Picards they bring out whenever suits them.
Honestly, I saw more genuine character development out of Picard from the 10 episode S1 of Picard then I saw out of the 176 episodes of TNG.
The newer shows are far more like DS9 in that regard because, like DS9, they have an ongoing narrative, which means things like character development have to be maintained in order to keep the story going as it should.
Well, DS9 introduced Trek to serial episodes and broke episodic...but Picard, character development? Picard wasn't written entirely before it started film, which showed. It was finding its feet, SERIOUSLY lost its footing in the finale and I appreciate it a billion times more than Discovery, but it could have been so much better. I would have loved the Romulan housekeepers to be characters, the Vulcan boy didn't really go anything, you've got blondie murdering Bruce and then knocking off the Captain, whose Starfleet background we never really explored...and why did everyone feel the need to hook-up and date? That three-second ending with Seven and the vaper wasn't developed and...oh, I don't want to trash-talk Picard, but it wasn't flushed out.
Singularity Cores would definitely would be unaffected by the Burn but that Knowledge is so secretly guarded that not even Vulcans use it even after the reunification.
We don't know that for certain. We know for a fact that Dilithium is important to regulate a Matter/Antimatter reaction. We don't know how a Singularity Core works, or if Dilithium is a component in that or not. So we really cannot say one way or the other at all. On top of that, you'd think by the 32nd Century others besides the Romulans would have figured out Singularity Cores, and if that was the case, why don't we see more of them? Why is the basic Matter/Antimatter Core still a thing?
My guess, its a lot more reliable than a Singularity Core and far easier to maintain while still producing the same energy output of a comparable Singularity Core.
Do you remember that episode of DS9 with the comet? Sisko said that Defiant's shuttlepod didn't use antimatter in its warp drive...but what did it use? Did it have dilithium, or did it use something entirely different?
Singularity Cores would definitely would be unaffected by the Burn but that Knowledge is so secretly guarded that not even Vulcans use it even after the reunification.
We don't know that for certain. We know for a fact that Dilithium is important to regulate a Matter/Antimatter reaction. We don't know how a Singularity Core works, or if Dilithium is a component in that or not. So we really cannot say one way or the other at all. On top of that, you'd think by the 32nd Century others besides the Romulans would have figured out Singularity Cores, and if that was the case, why don't we see more of them? Why is the basic Matter/Antimatter Core still a thing?
My guess, its a lot more reliable than a Singularity Core and far easier to maintain while still producing the same energy output of a comparable Singularity Core.
it's also safer than a singularity core, mini black holes would be extremely dangerous.
Well, the Romulans got along okay and the Hirogan with their modules too.
Now, maybe I'm in the minority to not find Detached Warp Nacelles cool, or to believe the "science" behind them, but I personally believe that the whole point of Disco creating them, is to use more CGI.
I can't think of any other reason for pieces of a hull to be floating away from the rest of the ship, (especially the Janeway, with the saucer floating free) and you are not telling me that there's some sort of beam that could hit those gaps...Tachyon, Antithoron, Radion, Polaron, Antichroniton that could disrupt that weird matter and send the pieces flying off.
If I were the bad guy and saw that design, my entire purpose in an attack would be to do exactly that and you're not telling me that someone wouldn't succeed. It's a vulnerability, with a Producer Driven reason behind it.
In my humble opinion.
Nacelles have always been a vulnerability remember in tng when that ship came out of that time rift and hit the enterprises nacelle effectively destroying the whole ship. The way i see it nacelles are tied directly to the warp core so if you had them separated until need be then it would be safer. why the thread got hijacked into some warp 10 nonsense is beyond me.
Yeah, I think anyone and everyone would struggle to justify anything about Threshold...nacelles tearing off, etc. It always made me sad that Enterprise (NX-01) didn't have closer similarities to Cochrane's missile, instead of the clearly blatant later starships. I would have loved to see a different shame, with retractable nacelles and that landed. Always out did always mean always vulnerable. It really was JJ though who loved to TRIBBLE the Enterprise with weapons fire and I've tried to blot the films out of my mind, but didn't the ship get a nacelle shot off?
Comments
If Discovery jumped around, because it was using stabilized Omega Molecules, then I would be GAGGING and all would be forgiven.
I really don't understand though...in the 32nd Century and with no explanation for the burn, why was anyone taking the risk of using warp? And yet, they all were! Dilithium was a commodity, when it should have been considered a deadly, toxic and treated like leprosy! All the ships should have been using Quantum Slipstream or Soliton Waves, but not warp.
It. Did. Not. Make. Sense, since they couldn't explain what had happened.
Dependency makes you do strange things. Look at our commitment to fossil fuels.
The would be no need to have a warp core onboard the ship.
'Warp' works by creating a bubble around a ship and warps (and/or 'folds') space in order to bypass the inviolate law, that nothing can travel faster than light. Which means the ship itself does not move, the space around is 'warped' so that the distance between 'A' and 'B' becomes shorter.
Getting back to the main point, to the EPS/Warp core connection. There would be no requirement for any such connection to the ship. A sufficiantly powered set of nacelles could create the required warp field/bubble around the ship. Therefore the ship could have an indepedent power source from the nacelles.
The above scenario is unlikley to work with impulse (sublight) drives however, as in this case, the ship actually is moving, and would require the momentem from engine connected to the ship in order to create propulsion.
In essesence, the is nothing stopping detatched (and self powered) nacelles creating a sufficiant warp bubble in order for a ship to reach warp 'speeds'.
'Takes off geek hat'.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
(Sorry, couldn't resist.)
(Other civilizations may not have been affected, as noted above, or they may not have been quite so gun-shy as the Federation about resuming warp travel with whatever dilithium remained. The Emerald Chain certainly wasn't shy about it, they were just hoarding their resources.)
I would have preffered if they had (as Star Trek has tried to adhere to in the past) stuck to what science already has to say about 'warping space'.
We know for instance, that any signifcant body of mass, 'warps' space in some way or form. Black holes (and in particular, 'super massive' black holes, warp and deform space in such a manner that the 'space' no longer functions in a manner humans can interact with).
But despite natural phenomena warping/stretching space to it's utter extremes (such as the aforementioned supermassive black holes) and the fact they have done this for billions of years, without any signifcant 'damage' to the rest of space, would suggest to me, any puny warp drive would have little effect.
I thought 'all good things' was an excellent end, to an excellent series. The 'damage' caused by warp drive was largely addressed by 'variable height' nacessles (such as sported by Voyager). And that was the end of it.
What the latest series has brought in with 'the burn' seems (to me) just an excuse to make what was already a dark take on the Trek' franchise, even more darker and more dystopian.
I used to really enjoy Star Trek (each and every series) up until Discovery. I've tried my best to like it, and I never thought I would ever get bored of any Star Trek series (Ive probably watched ALL of DS9 about 20 times, and even the 'weaker series' ENT/VOY about 9 or 10 times.
In comparison, I find myself pausing Discovery to have a break from the constant 'downer' feel. And often not bothering to restart it again. I have no problems with the actors, I think they are all very good. I just dont feel any connection with the story lines, I find my mind wandering, rather than being riveted by whats going to happen next (remember Sisko/Dukat in that cave? - Picard/Wesely in THAT cave?, Ive never (ever) had the kind of feeling like that from ANY Discovery episode).
Anyhoo, end of rant, went off on a tangent there.
Perhaps we see different things. To me, ENT/TNG/DS9/VOY (despite some weak episodes), always had me riveted, I could never wait to see what happened never. Even when I re-watched an episode I have watched a dozen times, I can watch it again and get the same feeling. Because the stories were (for the most part) well written, and a mixture of dark/lighthearted vignettes, that (even when they had no direct story arc) led to character development which made certain scenes all the more poigant.
I can remember when Picard first saw Wesley on the bridge and cringed (turning and saying 'shes brought a CHILD on my bridge!). I then remember 'picard day', where he is mortified when another officer comes on the ship to find out the children are 'celebrating' the captain.
He then has to learn how to deal/relate with the children when a shipwide problem occurs. And then we have one of the final scenes later in the season when Wesely is about to leave the ship. They are both in a cave, Picard seriously injured, and he talks about how he 'envies' Wesley, how he's going to be doing it all from 'scratch', and getting to experience life from the perspective of a young man.
That kind of character develoment gave me tingles, and it's something that is (for me) abscent in Disgovery. There are tears, there is drama, but I personally feel zero connection to any of the characters and that's why I find it so uninteresting.
That's just me, other people may feel very differently.
(Emphasis added)
I'm just curious now, how puny is warp drive compared to a black hole in terms of its effect on space?
Light cannot escape a black hole. But warping allows for speeds that are much higher than that of light. So you'd think that creating a warp bubble actually has a much greater effect on its surroundings than even that of a black hole has on its.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
Rather than answer myself (because I'll probably talk too long, and maybe even give you the wrong answer)
I'll refer you to someone else who has already looked at the 'problem' of creating a warp drive, without the same constraints of creating an infinitely dense area, as those manifested by a black hole, whilst still allowing faster than light speed:
https://theconversation.com/warp-drives-physicists-give-chances-of-faster-than-light-space-travel-a-boost-157391
A snippet fromt that article:
"1994, Miguel Alcubierre, a Mexican theoretical physicist, showed that compressing spacetime in front of the spaceship while expanding it behind was mathematically possible within the laws of General Relativity."
You left out a few parts. According to Lentz (at the University of Göttingen), a 100 m radius spacecraft would require the energy equivalent to “hundreds of times of the mass of the planet Jupiter.” He adds that to be practical, this requirement would have to be reduced by about 30 orders of magnitude to be on par with the output of a modern nuclear fission reactor. He also mentions a 'Horizon' problem: “A warp bubble travelling faster than light cannot be created from inside the bubble, as the leading edge of the bubble would be beyond the reach of a spaceship sitting at its centre.”
I would disagree with you there. I saw a very strong level of character development from the intitial introduction of data, to the later episodes, questioning his self determination (Measure of a man) and even later, during a crisis in which he is assigned to another ship (United) In which Data fights 'racism' in order to get other crew members to listen to him (and even initially Picard to assign him) to stop a Romulan incursion.
Similarly with Picard. I can see his character progression, even with what I mentioned above regarding Wesley. We can see him evolve and react to his assimilation by the Borg, and this even crossed into the boundry of DS9 (Sisko speaks to him very disrespectfully, but Picards lets it (unusually) go, as he was involved in killing Sisko's wife when assimilated as Locutus. This also follows on into the film (First Contact) were Picard is ordered away from the Borg incursion, and is regarded as suspect by the Federation.
In comparison to the new series. Let us take the 'Red Angel' arc as comparison. It turns out that 'Red Angel' was the mother of Michael. Despite all the 'tears' and dramatic music and all the built up... it had zero effect on me.
Because they did not take time to develop the relationship between the two characters, there was zero connection between the viewer and the story, and thus it fell flat. And you think. Oh... Ok.
Instead of thinking... Oh... Wow! (and then having an actual emotional response) And wanting to watch it again some other time.
But it takes all sorts to make the world go around. What makes some people tick/react, may not work for others. I have had prettey much zero reaction/investment in Discovery, despite trying my hardest.
We don't know that for certain. We know for a fact that Dilithium is important to regulate a Matter/Antimatter reaction. We don't know how a Singularity Core works, or if Dilithium is a component in that or not. So we really cannot say one way or the other at all. On top of that, you'd think by the 32nd Century others besides the Romulans would have figured out Singularity Cores, and if that was the case, why don't we see more of them? Why is the basic Matter/Antimatter Core still a thing?
My guess, its a lot more reliable than a Singularity Core and far easier to maintain while still producing the same energy output of a comparable Singularity Core.
it's also safer than a singularity core, mini black holes would be extremely dangerous.
Funnily enough, that also means this little exchange from the Wormhole Xtreme episode of Stargate SG-1 about an exploding singularity is, itself, wrong:
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
CM
Nacelles have always been a vulnerability remember in tng when that ship came out of that time rift and hit the enterprises nacelle effectively destroying the whole ship. The way i see it nacelles are tied directly to the warp core so if you had them separated until need be then it would be safer. why the thread got hijacked into some warp 10 nonsense is beyond me.
Back in the days before Roddenberry kickstarted Trek with TNG. And before we had the legendary TNG Technical Manual for television writers to have next to them, there was no such thing as a lava lamp-like warp core in the secondary hull of the starship Enterprise. Many (including myself) understood that all matter/antimatter reaction took place within each of the two warp nacelles. The sparkling and spinning effect at the front of those nacelles was the reaction chamber. The control computer of the engine room which maintained the delicate formula - with help from dilithium - for balancing the power to obtain warp speeds. Nacelles purposely kept out at a distance for safety reasons.
The refit starship seen in The Motion Picture was understood to show us a new approach. New, streamlined nacelles. The matter/anti-matter now being central within the secondary hull.
When the TNG Technical Manual was published, we were forced to shoehorn that interpretation retroactively to TOS. Before the films. I grumbled. But there it was. Written by Sternbach in black and white and considered the standard from that point.
I thought it might prove interesting if the old-school approach were to be what the 32nd century warp drive approach had actually evolved toward.
Benamite, but that was at the heart of VOYAGER'S engine. I don't think Species 116 used it...and what was Booker using, because he might not have seen it (annoyingly) but he mentioned it.
I'm ashamed to admit that I can't remember, but it was either a Wednesday or a Thursday and Voyager and DS9 were airing at the same time. And it had ME riveted too. Two series running at the same time and I'm still just only sorry there wasn't any crossover. I still say that the Defiant could have gone onto a mission into the Badlands to find Voyager and bumped into the Marquis, who were searching for Chakotay at the same time.
It's true and the Romulans (and I wish the Remans) should have taken over the Alpha Quadrant. Discovery turning up to find that having happened would have been great...not Orion Slave Girls clothed and arguing with the guy from Charmed.
Well, DS9 introduced Trek to serial episodes and broke episodic...but Picard, character development? Picard wasn't written entirely before it started film, which showed. It was finding its feet, SERIOUSLY lost its footing in the finale and I appreciate it a billion times more than Discovery, but it could have been so much better. I would have loved the Romulan housekeepers to be characters, the Vulcan boy didn't really go anything, you've got blondie murdering Bruce and then knocking off the Captain, whose Starfleet background we never really explored...and why did everyone feel the need to hook-up and date? That three-second ending with Seven and the vaper wasn't developed and...oh, I don't want to trash-talk Picard, but it wasn't flushed out.
Do you remember that episode of DS9 with the comet? Sisko said that Defiant's shuttlepod didn't use antimatter in its warp drive...but what did it use? Did it have dilithium, or did it use something entirely different?
Well, the Romulans got along okay and the Hirogan with their modules too.
Yeah, I think anyone and everyone would struggle to justify anything about Threshold...nacelles tearing off, etc. It always made me sad that Enterprise (NX-01) didn't have closer similarities to Cochrane's missile, instead of the clearly blatant later starships. I would have loved to see a different shame, with retractable nacelles and that landed. Always out did always mean always vulnerable. It really was JJ though who loved to TRIBBLE the Enterprise with weapons fire and I've tried to blot the films out of my mind, but didn't the ship get a nacelle shot off?