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Captain Geko tweets about player response to J'Ula character

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    trekfangrrrl#6910 trekfangrrrl Member Posts: 111 Arc User
    edited June 2021
    Said it before and I'll say it again: anyone that is "my 'side' is 100% right and the other 'side' is 100% wrong" is not a helpful part of the community. It's not a choice between "100% bad writing" or "100% you just don't get it". It's a combination of both the story has flaws AND some people aren't paying attention to the details or taking all details into account. Any rational person should be able to accept both of those things as being true at the same time.
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    paradox#7391 paradox Member Posts: 1,800 Arc User
    edited June 2021
    varethael wrote: »
    To be a Klingon, what the hell?

    To be a Klingon in Al standards is to: Betray, Be a coward, massacre innocents, and to do great DISHONOR, all three of them are the greatest sins that Klingon can commit, and grant such person one way ticked to their hell.

    We all learn about that with opening episodes in KDF faction, and now Al of all people state that this sins are Klingon virtue, that J'Ula is virtuous and innocent person, because she think like a Klingon... (>Picard facepalm picture<).

    Al, play your own game, and learn from first episodes, that she is pure evil, even in Klingon standards, and stop insulting player-base, or Klingon fan-base ford God sake!
    So you know nothing of Klingons, and didn't even play the opening Klingon missions?

    All the way as far back as TOS Klingons were a species that attempted to manipulate things from the shadows, instead of taking people on in direct fights. They only fought as a last resort, and fled from battle the moment it got tough. In TNG/DS9 we learn about mass Klingon sexism. Klingons use of suicide tactics. Gowron was a corrupt, insane, loon. The monks of Boreth lied about the return of Khaless as a power grab. Duras was pulling s*** left and right, and its specifically pointed out hes able to get away with it because all the other great houses are just as bad as he is. This all comes to a head in DS9, in the final season. Ezri tells Worf
    WORF: Better, albeit a little obvious. Now, tell me what you think.
    EZRI: Okay. But I'm not sure you're going to like it.
    WORF: Tell me.
    EZRI: I think that the situation with Gowron is a symptom of a bigger problem. The Klingon Empire is dying. And I think it deserves to die.
    WORF: You are right. I do not like it.
    EZRI: Don't get me wrong, I'm very touched that you still consider me to be a member of the House of Martok, but I tend to look at the Empire with a little more scepticism than Curzon or Jadzia did. I see a society that is in deep denial about itself. We're talking about a warrior culture that prides itself on maintaining centuries old traditions of honour and integrity, but in reality it's willing to accept corruption at the highest levels.
    WORF: You are overstating your case.
    EZRI: Am I? Who was the last leader of the High Council that you respected? Has there even been one? And how many times have you had to cover up the crimes of Klingon leaders because you were told it was for the good of the Empire? I know this sounds harsh, but the truth is, you have been willing to accept a government that you know is corrupt. Gowron's just the latest example. Worf, you are the most honourable and decent man I've ever met, and if you're willing to tolerate men like Gowron, then what hope is there for the Empire?

    Even back in ENT we see a Klingon Empire rife with corruption, and decadence. Its even a big plot point in the "Judgement" episode that ever since the warrior caste took over the empire they have destroyed any concept of real honor in favor of mindless bloodshed, exactly as we see them in TOS, TNG, and DS9.

    Klingons are cowards, liars, thieves, and backstabbers. They use suicide tactics to defeat enemies. They are religious cannibals who believing eating other species is the only way to get into sto-vo-kor. They are on again off again sexist. They enslave entire worlds for forced labor, and then abandon them once they have strip mined the world to nothing.

    They are utterly horrible creatures by human standards, and we see this continue even into STO with Klingons like Torg, and J'mpok himself.

    THAT is what it means to be Klingon.

    Yeah while I agree that while Klingon Empire is corrupt, most Klingons would fight as a first resort, running away isn't usually an option, TOS Klingons attempts to manipulate things from the shadows, instead of taking people on in direct fights could easily be explained as side effects of the augmentation virus, remember Archer started to act more TNG Klingon like in the ENT episode "Divergence" once he got forehead ridges while looking for a cure.
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    varethaelvarethael Member Posts: 79 Arc User
    edited June 2021
    leemwatson wrote: »
    I totally disagree. She WAS honourable to her time-period-Klingon ways.

    You are trying to defend something that is impossible to defend here.

    J'Ula goals are selfish (her only goal is to reestablish T'Kuvma dream), and her methods are evil, so if you can't see that, that's means that you didn't play episodes Leap of faith, and Partisans, where it was clearly pointed that she is not worthy of chancellor position, because she is unworthy (DISHONORED), and thanks to that most Klingons won't follow her, or even accept her leadership.

    One example; Virus usage to turn one Federation ship against another. This is NOT how a Klingon warrior should fight his/her enemies, this is not a honorable way, this is an assassin way, a Tal Shiar, or Undine ways.

    True Klingons seeks glory with the blade in their hands, not with computer virus, terrorist attacks, or by backstabbing their allies, and all of them, are J'Ula deeds.
    THAT is what it means to be Klingon.

    No, that what truly Klingon is, behind all this talks about honor, and that's why Gre'thor is overflowing with their souls, spilling tortured ones left and right from time to time;).

    Don't forget that power corrupts even most pure of people, even popes... and Klinons portrayed in shows has a lot of power i n their hands, and thirst to obtain more, by any means available to them.
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    varethaelvarethael Member Posts: 79 Arc User
    edited June 2021
    Klingon honor is not western, chivalric knight, honor. Its far closer to Samurai honor(and not the romanticized version we typically see which makes them like chivalric knights) where victory in service of your lord was the highest honor one could achieve, nearly regardless of the means to get it.

    I know that my English is bad, but at least try to understand my post before you come to the wrong conclusion.

    I never condemned suicidal attacks ON THE ENEMIES - read once more ENEMIES (or associate them with western morality - my knowledge is also not as shallow as you think), but rigging station core, or ships by a virus usage, is considered pure terrorism be it on the west, or in the east, especially ones belonging to an allies, or neutral party in your internal feud.

    Also I forgot to clarify myself in the last post, so i do this now; Doing bad, and dishonorable things in the shadows, are completely different things, and hold completely different weight in politics, that doing them openly, and J'Ula did exactly this, committed dishonor openly, which lead to her brand as unworthy, and captains turned their backs on her in Partisan episode.
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    fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,908 Arc User
    edited June 2021
    The reason it's bad writing is because there is no gradual character development. Everyone just treats J'Ula completely different from one moment to the other. With the only (weak) explanation being that someone else fired the weapon (as if that even matters - it's not like all her attacks against Federation stations and ships, both in the present time as in the past, didn't result in any casualties. Plenty of people died in those non-provoked attacks too).
    The problem with this argument is that its a bold faced lie that anyone who has played the missions can easily debunk.
    -We start off rightfully hating J'ula for most of the arc.
    -At Khitomer Discord we team up with her after getting betrayed, but our characters point blank state "this doesn't make us friends" to explctily point out this is only for convenience, and not because we like J'ula.
    -This unfriendly attitude continues through the next several missions where we even talk with Martok about him possibly killing her if she tires anything.
    -Its only in the newest mission, after shes helped us clear our names, and helped make up for her mistakes at Qu'vat, and the Mycelial Realm, do we even begin to show even the slightest amount of hint that we might not hate her guts.


    And yes, her attacks on Federation ships and stations did result in deaths. So did J'mpok's during the 2409 Fed/KDF war. And we allied with him too. Guess what, thats war. The U.S. has gone to war with everyone from the British Empire, to Germany, and Japan, and all three nations killed many U.S. soldiers, and now all three nations our U.S. allies.

    The problem with your whole mindset is that you treat death in war as being the same as just every day cold blooded murder, and it isn't. That isn't how real life works, that isn't how morality works. Both sides killed members of each others side during the war... that doesn't mean we can't be allies with them immediately after the war is over, or even during said war if a greater threat comes up.

    It's not a lie, you're just not understanding the point I was making.

    I was pointing out that there was no gradual character development for J'ula. You're only pointing out how attitudes of others to her changed. But that doesn't change the fact that she herself completely changed.


    The rest isn't a refutal of what I said either. Attacking Andoria, destroying entire ships and stations shows that she had no trouble killing off countless people for whatever lame reason she may have had. But the next moment we are led to believe that she wasn't actually bad because she didn't pull the trigger at Qu'vat.

    It's bad writing and the story, especially her parts in it, make(s) no sense whatsoever. No matter how hard you try to reply by pointing out irrelevant facts.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.

    [6/12 9:59][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 24097 (13711) Physical Damage(Critical) to Elite Tactical Drone
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    westx211westx211 Member Posts: 42,246 Arc User
    J'ula went from a warcrime spamming psychopath to a "hero" only because the devs made her, in a sloppily written story. It just feels a bit forced.
    Men are not punished for their sins, but by them.
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    fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,908 Arc User
    westx211 wrote: »
    J'ula went from a warcrime spamming psychopath to a "hero" only because the devs made her, in a sloppily written story. It just feels a bit forced.

    I have a feeling that they simply didn't know what role they wanted her to play. So they changed it halfway through the story.

    At least that's the impression I get from the story.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.

    [6/12 9:59][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 24097 (13711) Physical Damage(Critical) to Elite Tactical Drone
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    westx211westx211 Member Posts: 42,246 Arc User
    westx211 wrote: »
    J'ula went from a warcrime spamming psychopath to a "hero" only because the devs made her, in a sloppily written story. It just feels a bit forced.

    I have a feeling that they simply didn't know what role they wanted her to play. So they changed it halfway through the story.

    At least that's the impression I get from the story.

    I agree. If it had been more gradual her becoming a "redeemed villain" I still would dislike her as a character but atleast she would make more sense.

    Honestly I think the whole story about Aakar and J'mpok and the empire would've worked better if J'ula wasn't really involved, or if J'ula stayed a bad guy(Then we'd have multiple bad Klingons that have to be stop, and without the inconsistency of J'ula)
    Men are not punished for their sins, but by them.
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    phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,621 Arc User
    edited June 2021
    westx211 wrote: »
    J'ula went from a warcrime spamming psychopath to a "hero" only because the devs made her, in a sloppily written story. It just feels a bit forced.

    To be fair, it was no worse than the typical DSC plot. In fact if they were actively trying to use DSC writing style they were rather clever in their getting it spot on.

    Also, the DSC Klingons are the most alien Klingons shown so far (and I don't mean just in looks) and besides being more prone to fanaticism than the others they also apparently fall prey easier to group-think and the machinations of charismatic (for a Klingon anyway) manipulators like Aakar who know how to stoke their ego the right way to get them to do what they want. The TNG Klingons have a little of that almost-naïve ritualistic pack mentality too, just to lesser extent.

    Early on J'Ula was apparently riding a wave of righteous furor that buried any personal doubts about what she was doing and Aakar was actually calling the shots from the shadows though she did not realize it until the shocking wakeup call she got at Khitomer when Aakar openly betrayed her. After that she went though a (no doubt painful, and unfortuately all "off camera") reflection of her actions and realignment to something more mainline Klingon.

    That actually ties in with TOS rather well (a lot of DSC does under the hood, if it was not for the absolute contempt Kurtzman's bunch have for the look, feel, and to some extent history of TOS they could have made something that would have united the fanbase instead of divide it), assuming that L'Rell (possibly with insight from the fusion Voq) realized that Human trickery was too alien for the bulk of the Klingons to interpret properly and gathered the augments and set them up as a buffer between the heart of the empire and the Federation which is why only the "TOS Klingons" are seen during that period by the Federation.
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    rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,152 Community Moderator
    I agree that J'ula got slapped with the Mother of All Reality Checks right in the face.

    And after actually killing J'mpok in a legit duel, she did have the right to claim the Chancellorship as she defeated the previous Chancellor in ritual combat. The Right to Rule goes to the victor. However after her reassessing what she truly wanted back on Boreth, she decided that wasn't what she wanted. She knew that her rule would be challenged, and the only reason they would follow her is because she be J'mpok. She held the Sword of Kahless in her hand... and chose to pass it to L'Rell, who was far more of a politician and someone who could unite the Empire than she ever could be.

    Honestly I only have one problem with the end of the Civil War.
    Wasn't the detonator for the Hydro Bomb keyed specifically to L'Rell? Also... wouldn't that bomb have been found and removed? Or was it basically passed from Chancellor to Chancellor like a hot potato?
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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    legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,282 Arc User
    edited June 2021
    I think it's far more likely when L'rell used it to claim the chancellorship, she never told anyone exactly WHERE it was located...and no one found it after that until J'mpok - and maybe the only reason HE knew about it was because of the Na'khul, who may have told him stuff the way they told B'vat.​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
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    The Force is united within me.
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    paradox#7391 paradox Member Posts: 1,800 Arc User
    I think it's far more likely when L'rell used it to claim the chancellorship, she never told anyone exactly WHERE it was located...and no one found it after that until J'mpok - and maybe the only reason HE knew about it was because of the Na'khul, who may have told him stuff the way they told B'vat.​​

    or Noye told him, when I get my hands on him, he's getting the Bart Simpson choke complete with the iconic "why you little" line.
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    thetaninethetanine Member Posts: 1,367 Arc User
    [snip]This is a real dumb a*# response...[/snip]

    I read your name as "The Real Black Tacos" for some crazy reason. =D

    Hmm. "Taco Muy Kaos" might just be exactly what the Klingon ordered!!

    Ö nom nom nom nommnomm nommm...BURP!!
    STAR TREK
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    nrobbiecnrobbiec Member Posts: 959 Arc User
    I don't think J'Ula was irredeemable but I think the redemption arc was just rushed. If the devs were able/willing to release more story content more often then the plots would be able to be more satisfying.

    But I get it free to play models have to get money from somewhere or they get shut down.

    I do wish they could find more of a middle ground, does sometimes feel like the story gets minimal attention.
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    thetaninethetanine Member Posts: 1,367 Arc User
    edited June 2021
    westx211 wrote: »
    westx211 wrote: »
    J'ula went from a warcrime spamming psychopath to a "hero" only because the devs made her, in a sloppily written story. It just feels a bit forced.

    I have a feeling that they simply didn't know what role they wanted her to play. So they changed it halfway through the story.

    At least that's the impression I get from the story.

    I agree. If it had been more gradual her becoming a "redeemed villain" I still would dislike her as a character but atleast she would make more sense.

    Honestly I think the whole story about Aakar and J'mpok and the empire would've worked better if J'ula wasn't really involved, or if J'ula stayed a bad guy(Then we'd have multiple bad Klingons that have to be stop, and without the inconsistency of J'ula)

    By the way, J'ula has a giant bomb floating around the inside of the homeworld, Kronos, afaik. Remember it was put there by the Mary-Sue of ST: Discovery. They gave J'ula the detonator so she could keep the entire planet hostage while she dribbled her lock-jawed rage onto the reforming Empire. Oh, and the K'tinga-class too. Too many non-Klingons were noticing that ship-of-the-line missing from the Klingon's shipyards, and the Romulans too--by extension of warp drives exchanged for cloaking devices.

    Try running an empire while you're forced to subsist on a diet of pureed Gagh, the Klingon delicacy made from serpent worms and Targ livers.
    STAR TREK
    lD8xc9e.png
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    therealblackkaostherealblackkaos Member Posts: 121 Arc User
    > @thetanine said:
    > I read your name as "The Real Black Tacos" for some crazy reason. =D
    >
    > Hmm. "Taco Muy Kaos" might just be exactly what the Klingon ordered!!
    >
    > Ö nom nom nom nommnomm nommm...BURP!!


    Lol!!!
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    sthe91sthe91 Member Posts: 5,573 Arc User
    edited June 2021
    thetanine wrote: »
    westx211 wrote: »
    westx211 wrote: »
    J'ula went from a warcrime spamming psychopath to a "hero" only because the devs made her, in a sloppily written story. It just feels a bit forced.

    I have a feeling that they simply didn't know what role they wanted her to play. So they changed it halfway through the story.

    At least that's the impression I get from the story.

    I agree. If it had been more gradual her becoming a "redeemed villain" I still would dislike her as a character but atleast she would make more sense.

    Honestly I think the whole story about Aakar and J'mpok and the empire would've worked better if J'ula wasn't really involved, or if J'ula stayed a bad guy(Then we'd have multiple bad Klingons that have to be stop, and without the inconsistency of J'ula)

    By the way, J'ula has a giant bomb floating around the inside of the homeworld, Kronos, afaik. Remember it was put there by the Mary-Sue of ST: Discovery. They gave J'ula the detonator so she could keep the entire planet hostage while she dribbled her lock-jawed rage onto the reforming Empire. Oh, and the K'tinga-class too. Too many non-Klingons were noticing that ship-of-the-line missing from the Klingon's shipyards, and the Romulans too--by extension of warp drives exchanged for cloaking devices.

    Try running an empire while you're forced to subsist on a diet of pureed Gagh, the Klingon delicacy made from serpent worms and Targ livers.

    That was L'Rell not J'ula. J'ula is not even present in Star Trek: Discovery, she comes from a comic. That was Mirror Georgiou (acting as Captain Georgiou) that put it there with the approval from Admiral Cornwell and the rest of Starfleet. All Michael Burnham did was use the detonator for the hydro bomb as a bargaining chip against Georgiou instead of detonating it and making Qo'Nos uninhabitable which was Mirror Georgiou's goal like she did in the Mirror Universe to those Klingons. This information is from Memory Alpha and the episode called Will You Take My Hand? from Season 1 of DSC.
    Post edited by sthe91 on
    Where there is a Will, there is a Way.
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    varethaelvarethael Member Posts: 79 Arc User
    Klingons openly, and proudly, used terrorist actions across TNG and DS9, and then patted each other on the back about how honorable they were for doing it.

    Sigh, I see that you argue only for the sake of arguing, but a the same time you miss the most crucial point here with the stubbornness of a maniac, and by doing so you are twisting the reality in many places. But i don't have time, nor will to correct every point you twisted. But one thing is undeniable;

    And that is: Federation is different power that is ALLIED to them, and their set of values are not Klingon values. Romulans are different power too, and also with a different set of values.

    No, without any war declaration, or any prior warning, you bomb they basses, mass murder they populations, destroy their ships, and they will be still your happy allies after all of that... great thinking my stubborn friend, great thinking;).
    Now in any normal case (not in this lazy writing), both power would gather their fleets and end the treat that current Klingon's has become, once and for all. Moreover weakened KDF after civil war is not a match to any serious threat, and can't fight full scale war, not to mention any potential independence movements within the Empire, so;

    Klingon would remain a Klingon, and obtain glory and battle honor, by causing wars and conflict everywhere, but this will be a DEAD glory, of a DEAD Klingon (you remember III Reich and their fate, or you already forgot?). J'Ula visions on Boreth showed that quite clearly, that still following this bloody path of her sick ambition (restoring T'Kuvma dream), will lead to their unavoidable destruction.


    From the first reply, you are trying to point fingers at me, that I enforce my (western) morality on Klingon ways, but you my friend are ENFORCING everyone else to accept their (a)morality, forgive any misbehavior that they done, mass murders that they committed in this "arc", and moreover accept J'Ula as a hero.


    I stated clearly what J'Ula done is evil, and cannot be redeemed only because she killed a corrupted tyrant, and she, as Sela before her, must repent for her crimes, be it in Federation/Romulan jail, or Gre'thor, as was shown in the opening episodes of Klingon faction, because if not, we will get very ugly ending of a poor arc (that crimes can go unpunished, when you get diplomatic immunity, or seat of power - bad example for young people).

    Dishonor is still a grave sin for Klingon faith, and J'Ula is dishonored no matter what you say in her defense, and also unworthy of leadership, as episodes clearly shows... so there is no point of argument here, as even writers themselves said that she was evil, even for a Klingon.


    You also arbitrary stated that all Klingons are corrupt, dishonorable, traitorous, and cowards... why the hell are you insult K'Valk?

    And yes, her attacks on Federation ships and stations did result in deaths. So did J'mpok's during the 2409 Fed/KDF war. And we allied with him too. Guess what, thats war.
    ,

    Sigh, really its hard to talk to people who twist reality. J'Ula never formally declared war on the Federation (contrary to J'mpok), so its not a war, but terrorist activity, that she wished to turn in to full scaled war, only to realize her sick dream to restore her brother, T'Kuvma dream. This sort of activity is considered differently by law;).

    While alliances can change after peace is made, then terrorist are always terrorist, and most countries demands them to repent for their crimes. Even in wars, when someone commits mass murders, or genocides, affected countries will demand justice, like Israel has done, and criminals will be judged as in Nuremberg was done.

    I understand that J'Ula is your heroine, but please, don't twist reality, that terrorism is heroism. After all she is not much different that certain Austrian water-colorist, do you support him, and his sick ambitions too, because that was his "morality", because that what means to be N.a.z.i at that horrible time ?

    Think about that. That's all from my side in this topic.
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    jennycolvinjennycolvin Member Posts: 1,100 Arc User
    truewarper wrote: »
    I have a question...

    What worth was this chracter in the first place?

    In terms of depth? None.
    And this storyline certainly didn't do her any favours, either. She's just... there for the sake of being there.
    kv1Ohsx.png
    Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.

    Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
    - quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;

    Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
    Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
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    varethaelvarethael Member Posts: 79 Arc User
    edited June 2021
    varethael wrote: »
    snip
    >Making comparisons to that political group
    Yeah no, once you go there, you've gone just given up on reasonable conversation.

    Yeah, yeah. I pointed what you doning, and what in truth you maniacally defend. You don't like that, but that is a sad fact. The only difference between "him", and your heroine is, she got early wake up call, while he did not... but reality wont change, no matter how hard you will deny it (and insult me - multiple times already), or even when you cover your eyes, and plunge your ears;).

    And yeah, that is a perfect example of an classic maneuver... when you lost debate, then just flip the table.
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    varethaelvarethael Member Posts: 79 Arc User
    edited June 2021
    J'ula is literally nothing like him, at all, in actions, or scope of said actions. Its a complete false comparison fallacy.

    Sigh, and again the same thing, over, and over; Denying reality, changing topics, and insulting me for the 4th time... I don't have time, nor strength to make a full table of his dead's, and compare it to her deeds, to show you that both of them are the same. In goals, and in methods.


    But i give you a short example:

    1). She starts unprovoked aggression (wish for open war), for her sick dream. -> He starts unprovoked aggression for his sick dream.
    2). She massacres innocents, and escalate conflict. -> He massacres innocents, and escalate conflict.
    3). She as a Klingon (to be a Klingon no?) uses forced labor camps. -> He used forced labor camps.
    4). She uses underhanded methods to spread the conflict -> He uses underhanded methods to invade Poland, and others countries, under false reasons.

    That's should be enough, and i won't move on more "improper" deeds, because I don't wanna be banned.

    or scope of said actions


    Again you blatantly denying reality. She stopped hallway only because (as i already pointed, and you ignored for a n-th time), Akar betrayal, and by that she gets wake up call, that her heroic image will be shattered, that she will lose supporters, not by her change of hart, or any moral boundaries as you wish to believe she have.

    If not for Akar, then her crusade would been escalating and turned out of control, ending as a second repeat of "His" story, because that was her primary goal from the day one that she arrive to the future, to reignite war with the Federation (Romulans in turn too), to realize T'Kuvma dream, that was shown clearly in episodes, and she openly admitted that many times.

    I repeat again; that if shes continue this mindless and bloody path, Klingon's will be destroyed, will be gone. That, and only that in the end stopped her (at least for now - her internal conflict, after receiving the blade of Kahless) for doing the same "mistake" as he has done.

    Conversations devolving into those kinds of comparisons even have their own law


    Yeah, yeah, tell this to late GR, who creating his Klingon's, took his inspiration partially from Soviets and their gulags;).


    Edit: My grandparents suffered from "his" methods and morality, that's why when i see similar one done by J'Ula, that i cannot, and will not accept it, and call it for what it is, no matter how much you wish to deny, or sugar her selfish deeds. That's all from me.
    Post edited by varethael on
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    fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,908 Arc User
    As horrible as it must be for people to have family who suffered in the real world from atrocities, I think it's time to take a step back and remember that this is still a video game.

    J'ula is still a fictional character in the end, and there's no need to involve all sorts of real-life historical-political discussions here.

    The actions of this fictional character - within the settings of a made-up universe - are best discussed on their own, without the discussion being needlessly derailed through debating whether or not there are real-life parallels.

    Such a derailment is completely unnecessary to decide whether or not J'ula did things wrong or whether or talk about the development of this fictional character.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.

    [6/12 9:59][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 24097 (13711) Physical Damage(Critical) to Elite Tactical Drone
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    varethaelvarethael Member Posts: 79 Arc User
    As horrible as it must be for people to have family who suffered in the real world from atrocities, I think it's time to take a step back and remember that this is still a video game.

    J'ula is still a fictional character in the end, and there's no need to involve all sorts of real-life historical-political discussions here.

    The actions of this fictional character - within the settings of a made-up universe - are best discussed on their own, without the discussion being needlessly derailed through debating whether or not there are real-life parallels.

    Such a derailment is completely unnecessary to decide whether or not J'ula did things wrong or whether or talk about the development of this fictional character.

    Its hard to ignore, when someones accept, and justify atrocities mindlessly done for a selfish reason, even in a virtual world. But, nevertheless i agree with you, lets stop, and levee it at that.
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