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Captain Geko tweets about player response to J'Ula character
trekfangrrrl
Member Posts: 111 Arc User
Here is my issue with this topic. Too many people take an absolute/extreme position. It's either 100% bad writing(from some players perspective) or it's 100% 'they just don't get it' (from Al's perspective). The truth is probably somewhere in between. It's probably true that some people aren't thinking it through completely. It's also probably true that Al and others did not tell the story as well as they could have. The problem is both of those groups are completely stubborn and will never ever admit they could have possibly made a mistake. Some players will act like Cryptic always screws up, and some devs (Al definitely being one of them) will act like every development decision is always right all the time. Neither of those types of behavior is a good thing, TBH.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
By that standard, it can equally be assumed that the other 98% hate of the player base without getting their assessment on it.
I always find bad writing and boring characters painful...but is anyone paying attention?
If I thought that I could provoke change and that episodes from this point on would improve with quality, then I'd absolutely speak up...I think others would too, but it's like peeing into the wind.
But of course it's 'too much work' to put in branching dialogue options that actually consider the players faction.. everyone gets the same standardized response even if it only makes sense for some captains and is total nonsense for others.
It was bad writing, but as always Geko is completely tone deaf to the actual problem and responded in a way that shows how disconnected and clueless he is.
Nothing new.
"I'm <rank & player name> of the <ship name>, and it became my concern when you fired on my ship."
I'll add that J'Ula wasn't facing a Starfleet (and Romulan Republic) that barely knew anything about Klingons, but a Starfleet that knew practically everything about their Honour and Caste systems, so it was easier to 'manipulate' the situation. J'Ula was a poor enemy, not by writing, but by the fact she was utterly at a huge psychological and situational disadvantage. Had it just been her vs J'mpok, the situation would have been far more dangerous.
I think the problem some people are having is that nothing is actually known about her in the past. A bigger backstory might have helped, but it's too late for that now.
Which, as I've said elsewhere, makes perfect sense. But more effort could have been done to give her (and L'Rell) a proper role, instead of forcing upon them (and us) the role of saviours of the Empire.
They had Martok, who also heavily featured in some of the dev blogs about the Tzenkethi War. He and Kurn and perhaps characters like Kagran and even Worf have led succesful campaigns and worked with allies everywhere to protect the interests of the Empire - while J'mpok was busy playing politician.
What exactly have L'Rell and J'Ula done that makes them more important? The former clung to power through lies (remember 'Ash's' severed head) and because her enemy granted her that power while preparing to blow up her world - it's basically Starfleet empathy that made her the leader. The latter hasn't done anything thus far that really benefitted the Empire.
There were enough present-day warriors who could have taken the role of J'Ula and L'Rell. Former warriors and current-day ambassadors, generals, leaders of the Iconian War. Instead Discovery characters were chosen, merely because there had to be some link with Discovery. Not because they were interesting characters, because they aren't and still won't be if you look at it from a Klingon perspective.
A couple of points:
Starfleet didn't initially work with the Remans. T'Nae certainly had her reservations. And those Thalaron weapons are never used in the end.
Sela was mostly used for her knowledge, Quinn also stated that she would be held responsible for her deeds. But there were bigger issues at that time. She re-appeared in charge of a Dominion fleet while Earth was under attack, there wasn't exactly an opportunity to arrest her then either.
The Kobali are yet another example of bad writing, just like J'Ula is. You're actually proving the point of those criticising Cryptic because it's another example where, if I'm not mistaken, the same dev told us we just didn't get it, or couldn't handle things not being so black and white and so on.
As much as I'd like to see more different answer options, they'd probably still be too limited even if more options were included.
An Andorian captain will likely respond different than a Vulcan, whose reaction will be different again from that of a Tellarite in many cases. Even a special 'Federation-anwer' would thus quickly become too generic.
While more effort could definitely be put into a greater variety of dialogue options, I'm also thinking it will always remain an issue.
And that's because we have such a wide variety of playable types of characters - which is a good thing of course.
You're probably right, even if they did branching dialogue by faction it would still likely be lazy and generic. Still, it would be nice to see at least a little effort put in to recognize that not all captains playing the mission are going to have the exact same motivations. It would have been nice to see more flavor stuff for actual KDF faction characters that would have more intimate knowledge of the Klingon traditions then someone from outside the Empire.
Again though, I know that's too much to ask.. I don't expect that type of effort in Star Trek Online, it's an obvious pipe dream. It's not like this is the first example of questionable writing in Star Trek Online and it's nothing new. Don't get me wrong, they have done some great stuff as well.. the game is very much a 'mixed bag' story wise and this last arc is not their best work. Maybe the next one will be better.
To be a Klingon in Al standards is to: Betray, Be a coward, massacre innocents, and to do great DISHONOR, all three of them are the greatest sins that Klingon can commit, and grant such person one way ticked to their hell.
We all learn about that with opening episodes in KDF faction, and now Al of all people state that this sins are Klingon virtue, that J'Ula is virtuous and innocent person, because she think like a Klingon... (>Picard facepalm picture<).
Al, play your own game, and learn from first episodes, that she is pure evil, even in Klingon standards, and stop insulting player-base, or Klingon fan-base ford God sake!
And I state this once again, player was forced in to traitor status in their respective factions, hunted like an animal, and now everything goes to normal without any consequences, or compensations.... Its so horrible lazy writing, that i don't have any more words to condemn it.
Yeah, today devs lack of knowledge about their own genre, and they pure laziness, is blamed at players intolerance, racism, or lack of brain (understanding, intelligence, wisdom, etc). Its so common now, that Im sick of it, and all this TRIBBLE started from Baldur's Gate rewritten saga, or at least i meet this behavior for the first time.
I will always support this. While yes, even a branching by faction would probably be done in the most lazy and generic way, it would still be better than what we get today.
It's only right, after all. And it's not like there aren't any precedents (in this game, even!). But even if they were the first to do it, and so wouldn't have a plethora of examples to look at, not even making the effort is ultimately part of what makes this game so frustrating.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Worf's toenail clippings have a greater sense of their honour system than julie could even dream of. She rapidly became the new sela, turning up to cause trouble and then in the blink of an eye we're somehow best buds, taking orders from her like a first year cadet but unlike sela it looks like she's going to get off without so much as a slap on her wrist over the acts of genocide she instigated.
While I don't hate J'Ula, I have to agree that she is a cowardly and dishonorable Klingon, I haven't seen this much dishonor in a Klingon since the likes of Jurlek and Torg, She's a Klingon with the personality of a Tal Shiar Romulan, there's no way honorable Klingons would follow her into battle, she needs to regain her honor a bit more first before having her in charge, one arc isn't going to magically redeem her even in the eyes of Klingons, for instance how long did it take Worf to prove that he was an honorable Klingon in the eyes of the empire.
I totally disagree. She WAS honourable to her time-period-Klingon ways. She thought current day Klingons were cowards and betrayed what it mean't to be Klingon, especially J'Mpok and his sitting back from conflicts that would have brought 'great honour' to the Klingon Empire. To her, it was a comparison between apples and pears.
People had the same issue with the Kobali arc. NPCs would spout off about the Prime Directive, and people playing as Klingons or Romulans would want to click "Prime what?" if that was an option. One size fits all dialog in these situations fits poorly.
Seriously, if we're not buying it enough, then they are simply not selling it properly.
> No idea what this is about, but for me J'Ula will always represent one thing first and foremost: the need to add Discovery stuff to the game.
>
> Which, as I've said elsewhere, makes perfect sense. But more effort could have been done to give her (and L'Rell) a proper role, instead of forcing upon them (and us) the role of saviours of the Empire.
>
> They had Martok, who also heavily featured in some of the dev blogs about the Tzenkethi War. He and Kurn and perhaps characters like Kagran and even Worf have led succesful campaigns and worked with allies everywhere to protect the interests of the Empire - while J'mpok was busy playing politician.
>
> What exactly have L'Rell and J'Ula done that makes them more important? The former clung to power through lies (remember 'Ash's' severed head) and because her enemy granted her that power while preparing to blow up her world - it's basically Starfleet empathy that made her the leader. The latter hasn't done anything thus far that really benefitted the Empire.
>
> There were enough present-day warriors who could have taken the role of J'Ula and L'Rell. Former warriors and current-day ambassadors, generals, leaders of the Iconian War. Instead Discovery characters were chosen, merely because there had to be some link with Discovery. Not because they were interesting characters, because they aren't and still won't be if you look at it from a Klingon perspective.
Couldn’t agree with you more! As much as they had directive from CBS to implement Disco stuff into STO, they should’ve exercised some creative control. There was a opportunity to get those that weren’t fully invested into Disco to “come around” and they blew it in my opinion. And, if this is what future offerings are going to be story wise, then let me know right now so I can bow out and invest my time and money somewhere else.
What worth was this chracter in the first place?
> They actually had no directive from CBS. In fact, it was Cryptic who went to CBS to ask if they could even do DSC stuff in the first place, not the other way around.
As with everything else I’ve seen and heard from Cryptic, I don’t buy that logic for a second. But, for arguments sake, if they did initiate it, then their creative team sucks for putting forward a weak story arc that has gotten few, if any, favorable reviews. If this is Cryptic’s best effort with the Disco franchise, I’d be worried if I’m CBS because they did them no favors as far as winning fans over. It’s only going to manage to give those that have a small iota of dissension a measurable “win” in the court of public opinion and that’s dangerous when it goes from a few small brush fires into a full on inferno.
The reason it's bad writing is because there is no gradual character development. Everyone just treats J'Ula completely different from one moment to the other. With the only (weak) explanation being that someone else fired the weapon (as if that even matters - it's not like all her attacks against Federation stations and ships, both in the present time as in the past, didn't result in any casualties. Plenty of people died in those non-provoked attacks too).