If you're dead you can't become Chancellor can you?
Seems to work for L'rell.
Of course, L'rell was resurrected to be chancellor in large part due to the efforts by... yes, another captain of the alliance/traitor. There are always going to be those who claim the leader is a puppet. That isn't a reason to disqualify them.
By the Monks of Boreth, and the sister of T'kuvma, who is held in high esteem.
Insane. Somehow fighting wars alongside allies is suspicious to Klingons in your mind, but if those allies help clone a new chancellor with a lunatic from the past, that is not at all suspicious.
It seemed to work pretty well for Kahless II, the Klingons didn't accept him once they found out that he was a clone and while he was granted the title of "Emperor" He's nothing more than the Klingon equivalent of a mascot and mouth piece, he had no real power within his own Empire.
That is definitely something else that bugs me about this story, but I wanted to go back and review the Kahless-A story to see if I remembered it right. That is how I remember it, though. The clone of Kahless just was not received well specifically because he was a clone, and because there were things that were off about him. Why is it okay when L'rell does it? I am unclear.
It's a total double-standard. And the hilarious thing is that women in the Empire had to fight to be equal! Quark's wife went through a hell of a lot to get control of her House. I'm sorry, but Klingons were/are misogynistic. Look as Worf's ex/Alexander's mother...he couldn't handle a strong and independent woman at the time and she was taking no nonsense.
Martok should have been left in charge, because his character is so rich, developed, flushed out, interesting and this whole silly J'Ula and Lady Clone business should never have made it to an episode...let alone this much of STO. Well, they're barely episodes and just an ill-conceived story, buried to the neck in wave after wave after wave after wave after wave of monotonous fighting.
When I think of the great stories they brought Michael Dorn back for...J.G. has deserved better than this and so has Martok. He, like Kahless, came from nothing but led the Empire. I'd even have rather Lursa's nephew rising to power, because who cares if the Chancellor is corrupt, just as long as they're interesting?
I can't agree for one second of the use of the term misogynistic. Sexist, double standard, yes, but this is not born of hatred of women.
Klingons are a warrior society. They would have to be, by necessity, sexist to protect their women by keeping them out of places that can get them killed for the survival of the species. With how violent Klingon society is, having women treated as complete equals is going to kill the species unless the remaining women are just breeders, popping out little Klingons to not just hit replacement birth rate for themselves, but also for all the women who died in battle.
There is good reason humanity did not evolve with sending women off to war, or failed to protect them. These days there isn't as great a need for being highly protective of women, so we regard such sexisms as archaic and primitive. Klingons remain a warrior culture though, so it only makes sense that there is a degree of sexism to protect women from harm.
That is definitely something else that bugs me about this story, but I wanted to go back and review the Kahless-A story to see if I remembered it right. That is how I remember it, though. The clone of Kahless just was not received well specifically because he was a clone, and because there were things that were off about him. Why is it okay when L'rell does it? I am unclear.
It was Gowron who disapproved of the clone of Kahless. We have no idea how the rest of Klingon society would have reacted to him possibly becoming the High Chancellor. Gowron was also a power mad loon, so his opinion really isn't trustworthy.
What other house took Kahless-A in and gave him a seat of power? None.
L'rell who apparently also used the bomb to take power. Its almost like J'mpok was following her example.
And I responded to it. IF you meant something else you should have said something else, but don't get mad and try to backtrack when people point out what you said is wrong.
Yes that is exactly what I said and I stand by it. You on the other hand, took what I said and interpreted it in the least sensible way possible.
Why in the world are you hung up on this diplomacy thing?
Have you played the game or paid any attention to the story thus far? What am I saying... OFC you haven't. Let me try this again, to see if I can make you can understand basic elements of the plot.
-The Klingon Empire was divided
-The Klingon Empire had also lost a lot of clout with the other members of the Alliance
-The Klingon Empire needed a leader that both sides could approve of, and who knew of the importance of NOT attacking the Federation/Romulan Republic to bring ti back together
-L'rell is a great fit for this role because not only is she a much loved historical figure, but she was also already Chancellor before, and good at it, but she also lived through the FED/Klingon war of her time, and saw how fighting the Federation doesn't lead to a unified empire, and just makes things worse.
And no one alive can possibly see that? You think someone like Kagran doesn't understand that a House divided cannot stand? That is the inference here.
And why is suddenly the alliance important? You spent several shots claiming that working in the alliance was a liability to a chancellor, yet now you claim the chancellor needs to win the favor of the alliance and understand how to work with them, which frankly L'rell can't do to the same degree as an alliance captain since she was reborn yesterday and completely missed the conflicts that brought the alliance together.
Nevermind that talking to the Iconians with an open mind to learn about them showcases a wisdom that Sela clearly didn't possess, and she was an Empress! Kagran can clearly do a better job at your pet issue than someone who actually did lead a nation. Kagran has a lot of experience working with different people of different species towards a common cause. Yet at no point is skill in that required to be chancellor.
Being smarter then Sela isn't a high bar. Sela was such a bad leader her Empire collapsed and got absorbed into the Romulan Republic she was trying to destroy. Shon would be a better leader then Sela, that doesn't make Shon fit to rule the Empire even if he was a Klingon.
You haven't made any point. You're simply stating that some people are not qualified to be chancellor, because of arbitrary, invented qualifications, without anything to back up your case.
There is nothign arbitrary about qualifications for being a good leader. You're just ignoring them becuase you seemingly hate DSC characters, and are desperate to find any way to excise them from the plot, even if it means putting people who are obviously not really qualified for the job in power.
Seems to work for L'rell.
L'rell isn't dead, hence why she is clearly alive, and now Chancellor.
Ah yes, everyone is a bad choice except one. You ignore the fact that someone like Kagran clearly has those qualifications, but eliminate every possible choice because for some reason a dead woman from 150 years ago makes sense to lead the modern empire.
Your logic has us forced down a ridiculous future path, though. L'rell is a proven chancellor and no one else has her experience or qualifications, thus L'rell should be cloned to be the new chancellor. What happens when L'rell-A dies? Clone L'rell-B, she's the only choice!
L'rell did her thing and died. New blood should take over and lead the empire. for better or worse, not some zombie. They are capable of learning from whatever positive example she has set, because Klingon lore is passed down and honorable deeds celebrated.
Insane. Somehow fighting wars alongside allies is suspicious to Klingons in your mind, but if those allies help clone a new chancellor with a lunatic from the past, that is not at all suspicious.
No, fighting alongside allies during wars isn't suspicious. Being so closely tied to those allies, their culture, and government, and showing a constant string to decisions that clearly put thier views above those of the Klingons, like Worf, Kurn, and Martok's do, makes them suspicious.
You can keep trying to reductio ad absurdum these things all you want, only makes you look desperate.
I'm not the one simultaneously stating that close ties to the alliance is suspicious, yet at the same time the chancellor needs to understand and work with the alliance, with the known fact that L'rell only has her position because one of the most decorated alliance captains (PC) helped her get it. That is absurd.
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I can't agree for one second of the use of the term misogynistic. Sexist, double standard, yes, but this is not born of hatred of women.
Klingons are a warrior society. They would have to be, by necessity, sexist to protect their women by keeping them out of places that can get them killed for the survival of the species. With how violent Klingon society is, having women treated as complete equals is going to kill the species unless the remaining women are just breeders, popping out little Klingons to not just hit replacement birth rate for themselves, but also for all the women who died in battle.
There is good reason humanity did not evolve with sending women off to war, or failed to protect them. These days there isn't as great a need for being highly protective of women, so we regard such sexisms as archaic and primitive. Klingons remain a warrior culture though, so it only makes sense that there is a degree of sexism to protect women from harm.
What other house took Kahless-A in and gave him a seat of power? None.
Yes that is exactly what I said and I stand by it. You on the other hand, took what I said and interpreted it in the least sensible way possible.
And no one alive can possibly see that? You think someone like Kagran doesn't understand that a House divided cannot stand? That is the inference here.
And why is suddenly the alliance important? You spent several shots claiming that working in the alliance was a liability to a chancellor, yet now you claim the chancellor needs to win the favor of the alliance and understand how to work with them, which frankly L'rell can't do to the same degree as an alliance captain since she was reborn yesterday and completely missed the conflicts that brought the alliance together.
Ah yes, everyone is a bad choice except one. You ignore the fact that someone like Kagran clearly has those qualifications, but eliminate every possible choice because for some reason a dead woman from 150 years ago makes sense to lead the modern empire.
Your logic has us forced down a ridiculous future path, though. L'rell is a proven chancellor and no one else has her experience or qualifications, thus L'rell should be cloned to be the new chancellor. What happens when L'rell-A dies? Clone L'rell-B, she's the only choice!
L'rell did her thing and died. New blood should take over and lead the empire. for better or worse, not some zombie. They are capable of learning from whatever positive example she has set, because Klingon lore is passed down and honorable deeds celebrated.
I'm not the one simultaneously stating that close ties to the alliance is suspicious, yet at the same time the chancellor needs to understand and work with the alliance, with the known fact that L'rell only has her position because one of the most decorated alliance captains (PC) helped her get it. That is absurd.