A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
yeah, that's completely idiotic...despite whatever propaganda you may hear, NO organization ever actually demands perfection in EVERYTHING they do - as long as the job gets done without costing an overly large amount of...whatever depending on what's being done, those organizations will forgive a few minor slip-ups
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Just looking at this, it could seem to an outsider that anything that makes a challenge might not be viewed in a good light currently by the Cryptic devs (anything below elite level maybe). This does not make me feel comfortable at all.
The game's been going this way for literally years. Quick missions, where the objective basically amounts to "deplete a mountain of enemy health in the shortest time possible", designed to be repeated dozens if not hundreds of times by the player for progress. So everything is designed around pugging. It started with the changes to the Borg STFs, but few cared because the old ones were deemed to long or too hard.
The only thing in the past year (at least) in this game that needed any real strategy or organisation is Colony Invasion. (For something that needed 20 players with some degree of specific gear and tactics, and had no queue, that had good uptake). And that's now dead because most of the big fleets have either completed their colony or hit a wall on the dilithium grind and the provision reward is no longer worthwhile.
People will play a hard mission if there's a reward worth the extra time and effort, but Cryptic don't seem to consider this option.
Because Cryptic pretty much removed failure conditions from the game.
It really cannot be said more clearly.
A lot of the fail conditions were dumb insta-fails. Miss ONE starbase person in IGA? FAIL. ONE probe heals a gate? FAIL.
Vortex need 10 missed probes to fail is fine. That means people actually screwed up the mission.
That's because those weren't actually designed as fail conditions. No surprise just blindly elevating a bonus optional to mandatory objective doesn't always work. While it makes perfect sense you'd get extra credit for saving crewmembers from assimilation, failing that wouldn't in any way stop the main mission of recapturing the base.
The content that was designed for fail conditions were much better at it, like for example you had to save a minimum number of ships in Borg Disconnected. Saving the ships is what the mission is all about, so of course you should fail if you don't do that.
Split and merged comments from TEN FORWARD WEEKLY 10/9/2019 here since that thread became more about discussing Infected: Manus removal from RTFOs. /Merged
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Well, I'm sorry to say but comparing STO to Assassin's Creed is one of the most hilarious things I've ever heard in my life.
And that's a poor excuse. You have people that can do it and those that can't. It's not a matter of "game engine".
No, it really IS. Jesse was using it as an example of a game where the engine is designed to have jumping as an actual mission objective.
AC games have mechanics for grabbing surfaces. In STO you just stand on things.... if you don't fall off. Which makes the difference between falling to your death and successful mission completion.
Also jumping in STO has iffy detection for the floor. IE the center of your character model needs to be touching geo. Which can cause you to fail to jump because of uneven ground.
Then there's lag. In STO, success/fail in jumping is based on what the server sees. If you have lag, the server might see it as you stopping in mid-jump. This doesn't need to be much lag at all. Minor lag on ground will often take the form of you moving 4 steps forward then sliding back 1. I'm sure you can guess how that affects jumping.
All of these are factors that make a mission that requires jumping to complete non-ideal.
First of all, I'd be glad if you stop assuming you're the only one that knows how things works.
Just as FYI, I've played every single AC game and I certainly don't need you to explain to me how that works, and your "explanation"?
Big NOPE. That's not simply "jumping", that's parkour and it's a completely different, immensely more complex mechanic.
AC's a saga that was made famous by it's parkour shenanigans, ffs. How can you even begint to think that comparing STO to that is a good idea is beside me.
Why, even in BFV they realized they needed to do something more than "jumping" or "falling" and introduced an automatic "hold on" mechanic.
It was a poor comparison and an extremely easy to debunk excuse.
Especially since, as it has been said again and again, there are many points where you don't need to jump at all, unless it's to go from lower to higher.
And really, if "a mission that requires jumping to complete" is "non-ideal", then get rid of Dust to Dust or rework it accordingly.
Oh, but I forgot! You can actually just fall to your death and go on respawning on a safe spot... yep, that's exactly in line with the whole point of this discussion: if it's not auto-win, it's not worth the effort.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Why, even in BFV they realized they needed to do something more than "jumping" or "falling" and introduced an automatic "hold on" mechanic.
Which STO doesn't have.
It was a poor comparison and an extremely easy to debunk excuse.
Actually it's a great comparison. All of the things that make exploring the world in AC fun don't exist in STO.
it's a completely different, immensely more complex mechanic.
is exactly the point. The jumping system in STO is rudimentary and imprecise.
Especially since, as it has been said again and again, there are many points where you don't need to jump at all, unless it's to go from lower to higher.
"many"... not most, and you have to actually land the jumps or die. Is it possible to complete it even after someone falls? sure... it's also possible to solo Armek, but I wouldn't expect PUGs to be able to do that either.
And really, if "a mission that requires jumping to complete" is "non-ideal", then get rid of Dust to Dust or rework it accordingly.
Oh, but I forgot! You can actually just fall to your death and go on respawning on a safe spot... yep, that's exactly in line with the whole point of this discussion: if it's not auto-win, it's not worth the effort.
That's NOT the point at all. If that was the point then there wouldn't be hundreds of Borg you need to shoot or stab to death. This whole auto-win BS is ridiculous hyperbole. to win infected ground you have to hack your way through over a hundred Borg, most of them tactical drones or elite tactical drones, just to get to the boss room. That's not "auto-win" anything. The timed completion optional is 20 minutes for a reason, bad groups will not even get to the boss chamber before the 20 minute timer is over. Which means they won't have even gotten to the jumping over warp coolant part.
The question is not about whether it's auto-win or impossible but about whether it's a tedious, boring slog to complete.
That's NOT the point at all. If that was the point then there wouldn't be hundreds of Borg you need to shoot or stab to death. This whole auto-win BS is ridiculous hyperbole. to win infected ground you have to hack your way through over a hundred Borg, most of them tactical drones or elite tactical drones, just to get to the boss room. That's not "auto-win" anything. The timed completion optional is 20 minutes for a reason, bad groups will not even get to the boss chamber before the 20 minute timer is over. Which means they won't have even gotten to the jumping over warp coolant part.
The question is not about whether it's auto-win or impossible but about whether it's a tedious, boring slog to complete.
but most of the latest content include something like "auto win when the timer runs out" stuff. so thats the new standard. do basically nothing and get the reward. infected ground does exctly NOT fit into that, because you actually need to do something, and in addition itsnot you alone, its the complete team that need to do something. and its on advanced level one of very very few maps you actually need a team, the rest could be easily soloed like showed in the past already often enough
and personaly, i would highly prefere queues were team members are needed to finish something successful. thats the major point of an mmo, to play together with others, to achieve something with them together and not just solo it. if i want to solo something i could play any other singleplayer game
That's NOT the point at all. If that was the point then there wouldn't be hundreds of Borg you need to shoot or stab to death. This whole auto-win BS is ridiculous hyperbole. to win infected ground you have to hack your way through over a hundred Borg, most of them tactical drones or elite tactical drones, just to get to the boss room. That's not "auto-win" anything. The timed completion optional is 20 minutes for a reason, bad groups will not even get to the boss chamber before the 20 minute timer is over. Which means they won't have even gotten to the jumping over warp coolant part.
The question is not about whether it's auto-win or impossible but about whether it's a tedious, boring slog to complete.
but most of the latest content include something like "auto win when the timer runs out" stuff. so thats the new standard. do basically nothing and get the reward. infected ground does exctly NOT fit into that, because you actually need to do something, and in addition itsnot you alone, its the complete team that need to do something. and its on advanced level one of very very few maps you actually need a team, the rest could be easily soloed like showed in the past already often enough
and personaly, i would highly prefere queues were team members are needed to finish something successful. thats the major point of an mmo, to play together with others, to achieve something with them together and not just solo it. if i want to solo something i could play any other singleplayer game
Exactly this. Thank you, @felisean.
The rest of it... well, I've got no desire to continue discussing something with someone that simply doesn't want to see what's right in front of them.
Now that it's been removed from the random pool, though, I have a wish: reinstate the fail conditions.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Why, even in BFV they realized they needed to do something more than "jumping" or "falling" and introduced an automatic "hold on" mechanic.
Which STO doesn't have.
It was a poor comparison and an extremely easy to debunk excuse.
Actually it's a great comparison. All of the things that make exploring the world in AC fun don't exist in STO.
it's a completely different, immensely more complex mechanic.
is exactly the point. The jumping system in STO is rudimentary and imprecise.
STO doesn't have any places were such advanced controls are needed, since the only jumping the game ever requires is the occasional simple narrow gap. There are no precariously tiny landing spots, no moving platforms to hit, no complicated sequences of precisely-timed jumps or anything else that would need more than "run toward the gap and press the jump button." You don't even need room to accelerate since you can sprint fullspeed instantly.
And STO blocks players exploring the world with invisible walls so that's not an issue either.
And really, if "a mission that requires jumping to complete" is "non-ideal", then get rid of Dust to Dust or rework it accordingly.
Oh, but I forgot! You can actually just fall to your death and go on respawning on a safe spot... yep, that's exactly in line with the whole point of this discussion: if it's not auto-win, it's not worth the effort.
That's NOT the point at all. If that was the point then there wouldn't be hundreds of Borg you need to shoot or stab to death. This whole auto-win BS is ridiculous hyperbole. to win infected ground you have to hack your way through over a hundred Borg, most of them tactical drones or elite tactical drones, just to get to the boss room. That's not "auto-win" anything. The timed completion optional is 20 minutes for a reason, bad groups will not even get to the boss chamber before the 20 minute timer is over. Which means they won't have even gotten to the jumping over warp coolant part.
The question is not about whether it's auto-win or impossible but about whether it's a tedious, boring slog to complete.
Except that IS the point. IGA isn't auto-win, so it's "not up to standards." Auto-win is the standard and that's why it isn't in the randoms anymore. Overcoming challenge and earning your own victory by your own action is something we apparently just can't have.
And BTW, borg, tactical or otherwise, are total pushovers if you bring one of the many physical projectile weapons in the game instead of trying to "hack your way through."
If you played the mission in 2012 when everyone was doing it, any team that would've described the trip down as "a tedious, boring slog" might as well have just quit right away. They could NEVER beat the boss in a million years. There'd been pugs that made it down right smoothly and still couldn't beat the boss. Before all the powercreep, the boss was HARD. But almost everyone could do the the simple jumps, and click a button in time with 2 others.
Now, a good player could probably solo all the fights with the right gear, only need two lackeys there to press the buttons.
And the optional timer is 20 minutes, because despite the mission becoming orders of magnitude easier through powercreep and unadaptable weapons, the Masters of Easy Mode raised it from the original 15 minutes at some point.
And the optional timer is 20 minutes, because despite the mission becoming orders of magnitude easier through powercreep and unadaptable weapons, the Masters of Easy Mode raised it from the original 15 minutes at some point.
Imagine players were able to do that in 15 minutes without Mk XV gear, elite rarity, T-116 rifles and shotguns, and even before they'd assembled all the bits of their MACO set for the Integral Frequency Modulation. What witchcraft did they use to achieve such a thing?
It's only a boring 20 minute slog with bad PuGs. 95% of the game is already balanced around bad PuGs, why are some happy to see one of the few bits of content that isn't sidelined?
That's NOT the point at all. If that was the point then there wouldn't be hundreds of Borg you need to shoot or stab to death. This whole auto-win BS is ridiculous hyperbole. to win infected ground you have to hack your way through over a hundred Borg, most of them tactical drones or elite tactical drones, just to get to the boss room. That's not "auto-win" anything. The timed completion optional is 20 minutes for a reason, bad groups will not even get to the boss chamber before the 20 minute timer is over. Which means they won't have even gotten to the jumping over warp coolant part.
The question is not about whether it's auto-win or impossible but about whether it's a tedious, boring slog to complete.
but most of the latest content include something like "auto win when the timer runs out" stuff. so thats the new standard. do basically nothing and get the reward. infected ground does exctly NOT fit into that, because you actually need to do something, and in addition itsnot you alone, its the complete team that need to do something. and its on advanced level one of very very few maps you actually need a team, the rest could be easily soloed like showed in the past already often enough
and personaly, i would highly prefere queues were team members are needed to finish something successful. thats the major point of an mmo, to play together with others, to achieve something with them together and not just solo it. if i want to solo something i could play any other singleplayer game
That's fine and all, but it's a good way of explaining why I think it's Elite level content as-is and not advanced.
The whole point of Randoms was to get TFOs to pop that weren't popping, because few people select them in the first place. It's no secret that players overwhelmingly choose Space over Ground, so the Ground queues would always suffer in comparison without Randoms. Ok, so the old Borg TFOs aren't up to snuff when compared to more recent content. The maps are outdated and the mechanics aren't the best. But I'll say again, they aren't impossible. Now they've been relegated back to where they were before RTFOs were a thing. So, what's the point of Randoms again? Apparently only to promote content they want promoted. But having these TFOs in Randoms has highlighted the bugs and highlighted the need for them to be revisited, which is a good thing. Removing them from Randoms doesn't fix them, though. It just hides them from sight to be more easily forgotten or delay dealing with them. But if they're going to remove the old Borg Ground TFOs, then remove ALL of the old Borg TFOs.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Except that IS the point. IGA isn't auto-win, so it's "not up to standards.".
Nothing in the game is auto win to begin with.
thats a 100% wrong and false statement.
starbase 1 is the example to prove that you're wrong. you will get the same reward for shooting or just fly out of range and wait. the reward will be completly equal at the end.
We've given multiple examples of stuff that's auto-win in the game. You refusing to accept the reality of it is not gonna change it.
@baddmoonrizin is absolutely right. Removing stuff from the random does nothing but hide it from the "public" eye. If they really wanted to fix it and/or revamp it, they would remove it entirely, just as they've done with many other things (both episodes and queues alike).
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
You have to split up into multiple teams to purify all the crystals in time, and protect the three roots, in Pahvo Dissension.
You have to split up into teams to cover both the missiles coming from the planet, and the Klingon ships attacking the transports, in Operation Riposte.
The whole team has to use their tardigrades to uncover the probes at the same time in the Mycelial Realm.
If you want to get all of the escape pods in Battle in the Binary Stars you have to work together to get them from both spots at the same time.
Thats no teamplay, dude, its team-split and do stuff on your own. Its there to make u think you are doing something together while in the end u are not and could do it one at a time on your own.
Its Forrest Gump content with zero imagination as far as teamplay is concerned. Its designed that way to give good players a chance while simply giving up on the bad ones.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
and personaly, i would highly prefere queues were team members are needed to finish something successful. thats the major point of an mmo, to play together with others, to achieve something with them together and not just solo it. if i want to solo something i could play any other singleplayer game
So pretty much most modern TFOs?
You have to split up into multiple teams to purify all the crystals in time, and protect the three roots, in Pahvo Dissension.
You have to split up into teams to cover both the missiles coming from the planet, and the Klingon ships attacking the transports, in Operation Riposte.
The whole team has to use their tardigrades to uncover the probes at the same time in the Mycelial Realm.
If you want to get all of the escape pods in Battle in the Binary Stars you have to work together to get them from both spots at the same time.
if those wouldnt complete without me doing that stuff (at least on advanced) sure. for advanced they just increase the reward by a few marks, but doesnt change the fact that you win (aka getting the rnd pack, daily bonus pack, marks and dilithium) without doing all of those things
required to finish phavo you need to kill the last group and maybe even not that one at all but havent tried that because you know, weapon to autofire solved those problems too
required to finish an win the queue for operation riposte is to kill the last group and maybe one of the groups between those, rest is optional.
for binary stars all you need to do is wait till the cooldowns run out. if you ignore the optionals (rescue the pods is an optional, shoot more enemies) you will just get less marks but again the rnd pack, daily bonus pack, marks and dilithium. you will win the queue whatever you're doing.
for mycelial realm you need to start the first timer, aka talk to 1 tardigrade, run through the first portal and deactivate the consoles and kill the enemies at the end. the complete island jumping is optional again.
all the things you mentioned are optionals. for infected interacting with the consoles is REQUIRED. if you do not do those, you will never be able to finish the queue. thats a great difference, and personally i prefere required things for such things because you know, optionals just reward you with a bit less but you could completly ignore them. and i'm sure you're ignoring several optionals too (like transporting more teams during counterpoint as example). if you would say they are only successful when you get the max amount out of it yea well, 75+ teams transportet is possible (15+ per person) and i guess even quite a few more
so dont mix up winning a queue and get the most out of the queue, 2 different things. all we say is that it auto win not that you get exactly the same (beside sb1e as example, there its exactly the same ^^)
If people have so much trouble with jumping, what actions can they actually perform?
This is a serious question. Jumping is one of the most basic of abilities not just in this game, but in thousands of games. If having to jump is so much of a problem, I'm seriously starting to wonder why these people actually play action-centred video games like STO instead of just picking Free Cell or Rollercoaster Tycoon or something like that.
Also, as I said before: if you don't want to end up in this mission, don't queue for it.
It's kind of ridiculous to expect extra rewards without accepting the associated extra risk of ending up in a mission you don't like.
There are many missions I don't like. Battle of Procyon V, the mission where you have to defend miners against Na'kuhl forces, Storming the Spire is way too boring in my opinion....
Which is why I don't play RTFO's that often. Instead of expecting things to be removed so that I can queue up for a random mission, but only the ones I would play anyway and for which I would need no additional rewards.
FFS, just remove the whole RTFO system if you're going to arbitrarily exclude content, something which goes completely against the logic (increased frequency of queues launching, more rewards for unexpected situations) as to why the system was added to the game in the first place.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
for advanced they just increase the reward by a few marks
If you do none of those things you will get all of about 10-15 marks, compared to the 75 mark payout you would get if you actually do them. That isn't increasing the reward "by a few marks" that's the majority of the TFO's payout.
all we say is that it auto win not that you get exactly the same (beside sb1e as example, there its exactly the same ^^)
Also totally untrue. If you fail to save the transports in SB1 your mark reward goes down rather significantly.
Failing every objective is not winning, nor is getting a pack that you are supposed to get for simply playing the TFO mean the TFO auto wins.
When will you stop with this nonsense?
What you're talking about are optional objectives. Optional!
In case you're rusty, here's what Merriam-Webster have to say about it:
Definition of optional
: involving an option : not compulsory
Just as reference, here's also what MW says about compulsory:
No matter what you say, no matter how you put it, failing even ALL the optionals in a queue does not equal failing the queue itself.
And you don't get a pack "for simply playing". That's TRIBBLE and you know it.
Stop trying to spin the narrative your way to justify something that cannot be justified with anything other than "our community manager made us look like idiots, so now we're gonna remove the queue and hope people forgets about it because only premade groups will now run it".
Really, this is getting embarassing and ridiculous. Next thing will be the devs saying the moon is made of cheese with you shooting down anyone that dares to disagree.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
for advanced they just increase the reward by a few marks
If you do none of those things you will get all of about 10-15 marks, compared to the 75 mark payout you would get if you actually do them. That isn't increasing the reward "by a few marks" that's the majority of the TFO's payout.
all we say is that it auto win not that you get exactly the same (beside sb1e as example, there its exactly the same ^^)
Also totally untrue. If you fail to save the transports in SB1 your mark reward goes down rather significantly.
Failing every objective is not winning, nor is getting a pack that you are supposed to get for simply playing the TFO mean the TFO auto wins.
sounds like you never tried the full afk sb1e mode, than you would know. and since that i could explain to you that they wont be harmed at all when doing it propperly but hey .. i know nothing!
FFS, just remove the whole RTFO system if you're going to arbitrarily exclude content, something which goes completely against the logic (increased frequency of queues launching, more rewards for unexpected situations) as to why the system was added to the game in the first place.
It's not arbitrary. The devs explained it adequately.
The devs need to know if queues are broken or too hard. But collecting that information implies they plan to act on it. This is them acting on it.
FFS, just remove the whole RTFO system if you're going to arbitrarily exclude content, something which goes completely against the logic (increased frequency of queues launching, more rewards for unexpected situations) as to why the system was added to the game in the first place.
It's not arbitrary. The devs explained it adequately.
The devs need to know if queues are broken or too hard. But collecting that information implies they plan to act on it. This is them acting on it.
No, acting on it would be fixing it. Removing it from RTFOs is just hiding it.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
FFS, just remove the whole RTFO system if you're going to arbitrarily exclude content, something which goes completely against the logic (increased frequency of queues launching, more rewards for unexpected situations) as to why the system was added to the game in the first place.
It's not arbitrary. The devs explained it adequately.
The devs need to know if queues are broken or too hard. But collecting that information implies they plan to act on it. This is them acting on it.
No, acting on it would be fixing it. Removing it from RTFOs is just hiding it.
Right there is the key point to this argument. Also why i asked for an official statement from the devs (nothing against you Baddmoonrizin, i know you commented the best you could in your position ).
If it was pulled compltely, then they could have a leg to stand on to say they are working on the bugs. At the moment, it just looks like it was another reason why.
As to the comment people might say that it was pulled from randoms cause it was too unstable of a queue for randoms that cryptic wanted to show players. I can agree with that generally.
However;
When you queue for random, you are accepting you could get thrown into any unknown situation. Just because a queue requires teamwork, communication and was built for a different period of STO, doesnt mean it should be pulled because people cannot breeze through it.
Massives bugs definitely the queue should be pulled to be worked on, no question. But it should not be pulled because you need to do something else other than "Press spacebar".
Comments
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
The game's been going this way for literally years. Quick missions, where the objective basically amounts to "deplete a mountain of enemy health in the shortest time possible", designed to be repeated dozens if not hundreds of times by the player for progress. So everything is designed around pugging. It started with the changes to the Borg STFs, but few cared because the old ones were deemed to long or too hard.
The only thing in the past year (at least) in this game that needed any real strategy or organisation is Colony Invasion. (For something that needed 20 players with some degree of specific gear and tactics, and had no queue, that had good uptake). And that's now dead because most of the big fleets have either completed their colony or hit a wall on the dilithium grind and the provision reward is no longer worthwhile.
People will play a hard mission if there's a reward worth the extra time and effort, but Cryptic don't seem to consider this option.
The content that was designed for fail conditions were much better at it, like for example you had to save a minimum number of ships in Borg Disconnected. Saving the ships is what the mission is all about, so of course you should fail if you don't do that.
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AC games have mechanics for grabbing surfaces. In STO you just stand on things.... if you don't fall off. Which makes the difference between falling to your death and successful mission completion.
Also jumping in STO has iffy detection for the floor. IE the center of your character model needs to be touching geo. Which can cause you to fail to jump because of uneven ground.
Then there's lag. In STO, success/fail in jumping is based on what the server sees. If you have lag, the server might see it as you stopping in mid-jump. This doesn't need to be much lag at all. Minor lag on ground will often take the form of you moving 4 steps forward then sliding back 1. I'm sure you can guess how that affects jumping.
All of these are factors that make a mission that requires jumping to complete non-ideal.
My character Tsin'xing
Just as FYI, I've played every single AC game and I certainly don't need you to explain to me how that works, and your "explanation"?
Big NOPE. That's not simply "jumping", that's parkour and it's a completely different, immensely more complex mechanic.
AC's a saga that was made famous by it's parkour shenanigans, ffs. How can you even begint to think that comparing STO to that is a good idea is beside me.
Why, even in BFV they realized they needed to do something more than "jumping" or "falling" and introduced an automatic "hold on" mechanic.
It was a poor comparison and an extremely easy to debunk excuse.
Especially since, as it has been said again and again, there are many points where you don't need to jump at all, unless it's to go from lower to higher.
And really, if "a mission that requires jumping to complete" is "non-ideal", then get rid of Dust to Dust or rework it accordingly.
Oh, but I forgot! You can actually just fall to your death and go on respawning on a safe spot... yep, that's exactly in line with the whole point of this discussion: if it's not auto-win, it's not worth the effort.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
The question is not about whether it's auto-win or impossible but about whether it's a tedious, boring slog to complete.
My character Tsin'xing
but most of the latest content include something like "auto win when the timer runs out" stuff. so thats the new standard. do basically nothing and get the reward. infected ground does exctly NOT fit into that, because you actually need to do something, and in addition itsnot you alone, its the complete team that need to do something. and its on advanced level one of very very few maps you actually need a team, the rest could be easily soloed like showed in the past already often enough
and personaly, i would highly prefere queues were team members are needed to finish something successful. thats the major point of an mmo, to play together with others, to achieve something with them together and not just solo it. if i want to solo something i could play any other singleplayer game
ingame: @Felisean
Exactly this. Thank you, @felisean.
The rest of it... well, I've got no desire to continue discussing something with someone that simply doesn't want to see what's right in front of them.
Now that it's been removed from the random pool, though, I have a wish: reinstate the fail conditions.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
And STO blocks players exploring the world with invisible walls so that's not an issue either.
Except that IS the point. IGA isn't auto-win, so it's "not up to standards." Auto-win is the standard and that's why it isn't in the randoms anymore. Overcoming challenge and earning your own victory by your own action is something we apparently just can't have.
And BTW, borg, tactical or otherwise, are total pushovers if you bring one of the many physical projectile weapons in the game instead of trying to "hack your way through."
If you played the mission in 2012 when everyone was doing it, any team that would've described the trip down as "a tedious, boring slog" might as well have just quit right away. They could NEVER beat the boss in a million years. There'd been pugs that made it down right smoothly and still couldn't beat the boss. Before all the powercreep, the boss was HARD. But almost everyone could do the the simple jumps, and click a button in time with 2 others.
Now, a good player could probably solo all the fights with the right gear, only need two lackeys there to press the buttons.
And the optional timer is 20 minutes, because despite the mission becoming orders of magnitude easier through powercreep and unadaptable weapons, the Masters of Easy Mode raised it from the original 15 minutes at some point.
Imagine players were able to do that in 15 minutes without Mk XV gear, elite rarity, T-116 rifles and shotguns, and even before they'd assembled all the bits of their MACO set for the Integral Frequency Modulation. What witchcraft did they use to achieve such a thing?
It's only a boring 20 minute slog with bad PuGs. 95% of the game is already balanced around bad PuGs, why are some happy to see one of the few bits of content that isn't sidelined?
My character Tsin'xing
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thats a 100% wrong and false statement.
starbase 1 is the example to prove that you're wrong. you will get the same reward for shooting or just fly out of range and wait. the reward will be completly equal at the end.
ingame: @Felisean
@baddmoonrizin is absolutely right. Removing stuff from the random does nothing but hide it from the "public" eye. If they really wanted to fix it and/or revamp it, they would remove it entirely, just as they've done with many other things (both episodes and queues alike).
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Thats no teamplay, dude, its team-split and do stuff on your own. Its there to make u think you are doing something together while in the end u are not and could do it one at a time on your own.
Its Forrest Gump content with zero imagination as far as teamplay is concerned. Its designed that way to give good players a chance while simply giving up on the bad ones.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
if those wouldnt complete without me doing that stuff (at least on advanced) sure. for advanced they just increase the reward by a few marks, but doesnt change the fact that you win (aka getting the rnd pack, daily bonus pack, marks and dilithium) without doing all of those things
required to finish phavo you need to kill the last group and maybe even not that one at all but havent tried that because you know, weapon to autofire solved those problems too
required to finish an win the queue for operation riposte is to kill the last group and maybe one of the groups between those, rest is optional.
for binary stars all you need to do is wait till the cooldowns run out. if you ignore the optionals (rescue the pods is an optional, shoot more enemies) you will just get less marks but again the rnd pack, daily bonus pack, marks and dilithium. you will win the queue whatever you're doing.
for mycelial realm you need to start the first timer, aka talk to 1 tardigrade, run through the first portal and deactivate the consoles and kill the enemies at the end. the complete island jumping is optional again.
all the things you mentioned are optionals. for infected interacting with the consoles is REQUIRED. if you do not do those, you will never be able to finish the queue. thats a great difference, and personally i prefere required things for such things because you know, optionals just reward you with a bit less but you could completly ignore them. and i'm sure you're ignoring several optionals too (like transporting more teams during counterpoint as example). if you would say they are only successful when you get the max amount out of it yea well, 75+ teams transportet is possible (15+ per person) and i guess even quite a few more
so dont mix up winning a queue and get the most out of the queue, 2 different things. all we say is that it auto win not that you get exactly the same (beside sb1e as example, there its exactly the same ^^)
ingame: @Felisean
This is a serious question. Jumping is one of the most basic of abilities not just in this game, but in thousands of games. If having to jump is so much of a problem, I'm seriously starting to wonder why these people actually play action-centred video games like STO instead of just picking Free Cell or Rollercoaster Tycoon or something like that.
It's kind of ridiculous to expect extra rewards without accepting the associated extra risk of ending up in a mission you don't like.
There are many missions I don't like. Battle of Procyon V, the mission where you have to defend miners against Na'kuhl forces, Storming the Spire is way too boring in my opinion....
Which is why I don't play RTFO's that often. Instead of expecting things to be removed so that I can queue up for a random mission, but only the ones I would play anyway and for which I would need no additional rewards.
FFS, just remove the whole RTFO system if you're going to arbitrarily exclude content, something which goes completely against the logic (increased frequency of queues launching, more rewards for unexpected situations) as to why the system was added to the game in the first place.
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When will you stop with this nonsense?
What you're talking about are optional objectives. Optional!
In case you're rusty, here's what Merriam-Webster have to say about it:
Just as reference, here's also what MW says about compulsory:
No matter what you say, no matter how you put it, failing even ALL the optionals in a queue does not equal failing the queue itself.
And you don't get a pack "for simply playing". That's TRIBBLE and you know it.
Stop trying to spin the narrative your way to justify something that cannot be justified with anything other than "our community manager made us look like idiots, so now we're gonna remove the queue and hope people forgets about it because only premade groups will now run it".
Really, this is getting embarassing and ridiculous. Next thing will be the devs saying the moon is made of cheese with you shooting down anyone that dares to disagree.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
The planes also disagreed
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
sounds like you never tried the full afk sb1e mode, than you would know. and since that i could explain to you that they wont be harmed at all when doing it propperly but hey .. i know nothing!
ingame: @Felisean
The devs need to know if queues are broken or too hard. But collecting that information implies they plan to act on it. This is them acting on it.
My character Tsin'xing
No, acting on it would be fixing it. Removing it from RTFOs is just hiding it.
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Right there is the key point to this argument. Also why i asked for an official statement from the devs (nothing against you Baddmoonrizin, i know you commented the best you could in your position
If it was pulled compltely, then they could have a leg to stand on to say they are working on the bugs. At the moment, it just looks like it was another reason why.
As to the comment people might say that it was pulled from randoms cause it was too unstable of a queue for randoms that cryptic wanted to show players. I can agree with that generally.
However;
When you queue for random, you are accepting you could get thrown into any unknown situation. Just because a queue requires teamwork, communication and was built for a different period of STO, doesnt mean it should be pulled because people cannot breeze through it.
Massives bugs definitely the queue should be pulled to be worked on, no question. But it should not be pulled because you need to do something else other than "Press spacebar".
And this queue is neither.