Did anyone think that by removing it from the RTFO they were trying to minimize the risk of spreading the Infection?
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
The devs need to know if queues are broken or too hard.
And this queue is neither.
Ok, what would you consider to be the bar for "too hard"?
STO is not a hard game.. period.
If you want a challenge, Elite Queues are your best bet, but nothing in advanced is particularly difficult. The fact is that STO gamers expect everything to be handed to them. If there is any challenge at all, or any chance to fail, it's called 'too hard.'
Nothing in Advanced should be 'too hard' for anyone. If it is, then they just need a little practice, which is fine.
If the map is broken and can't be passed, that's another issue of course. The fact alone that you are calling the end a 'jump puzzle' is a perfect example. It takes an occasional jump from one large object to another.. that's hardly a 'jump puzzle' but because there is a chance you can fall and die.. it's labeled 'too hard.'
Again, you should try actually playing the map. It's clear from the stuff you have typed that you don't really know the map very well, you need to try actually playing it and you'll see it's not hard at all. Anyone that ever plays this map knows the 'too hard' argument is laughable.
And no, it's not me claiming to be some elite pro.. I'm far from it, the content is just easy enough for a scrub like me to walk through it. You would too if you ever actually tried. Just because it might be a little harder then a couple other queues doesn't make it 'too hard.' It's slightly harder then other incredibly easy content.
So I guess you fundamentally agree that it's harder than what is considered normal for an advanced TFO.
And your guess would be wrong.
There is a difference between 'harder then average' and 'too hard.'
While it's a little tougher then some other queues, it's still well within the bounds of difficulty for advanced queues.
It seems we have a fundamental difference here that we're just not going to get around, I am not going to convince you that this mission is not too difficult, and you're not going to convince me that it is. Probably best we just agree to disagree here, because there is no way I am going to be convinced that this map is too hard to be an advanced queue.
FFS, just remove the whole RTFO system if you're going to arbitrarily exclude content, something which goes completely against the logic (increased frequency of queues launching, more rewards for unexpected situations) as to why the system was added to the game in the first place.
It's not arbitrary. The devs explained it adequately.
The devs need to know if queues are broken or too hard. But collecting that information implies they plan to act on it. This is them acting on it.
No, acting on it would be fixing it. Removing it from RTFOs is just hiding it.
Fixing it would be one way of acting on it, but it's not the only way. "Hiding" it or removing it entirely are ways of acting on it, too.
A simple way to act on it is to ensure it doesn't cause too many people to be bothered.
The missions in the RTFOs mostly seem to be build around a similar level of time needed to be played (with ideally comparable levels of rewards for time spend on them). If a mission tends to be out of line with this expectation, it causes problems, because players cannot predict how long it will take them. For people that have only limited amount of uninterrupted play time, a TFO like Infected causes problems, and it can go so far as to discourage them from even bothering to do RTFOs - or playing the game all together. That is not in Cryptic's interest (and arguably, neither the player's interest.)
I also remember the Cure Applied taking excessively long, so I hope they look at that too.
I am not sure if I'd prefer them to rebuild these missions so they can be returned to the TFO, or if I'd rather see them being turned into a special Elite Only TFOs that can last a bit longer. There is clearly not just demand for the RTFO style shorter group content (which we now already have plenty), but also a desire for some more complex and challenging longer group missions.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
If you want to fix something, you remove it, work on it and make it available again once it's fixed. Just as they have already done with other stuff.
Hiding it away to "ensure it doesn't cause too many people to be bothered" is not acting on anything.
And if the "level of time" is the problem, then remove stuff like Battle of Procyon V and Gravity Kills, too.
Remove Crystalline Catastrophe, since it's so short and do something for ISA, too, because it can last less than two minutes or it go on for forty, depending on the team you have.
Infected does NOT cause problems. People not wanting to learn and to play in a team does. Period.
And news flash: unless it's time-gated, every STF can last forever so, by your own reasoning, every STF needs to be removed from the random. But that's the point: if it's not time-gated auto-win stuff, it's "too hard", "takes too long", "bother too many people" and "causes problems".
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Why do people try or advocate AFKing content? Just play the bloody thing. The problem would not seem to be content but with attitude. If Cryptic needs to change something, it is to disintentivize that type of behavior. And not simply by just applying that AFK Penalty, which can be wrongly dispensed. I have never gotten the AFK Penalty.
The other day I had a Hard Endeavor of Kill Terran Ships. I went to the Badlands. I was part of two Boss takedown, but arrived late into the BZ and directly there to begin with, the Terran Counterattack Phase, and then two area conquests. In all cases, while I was there (in the Boss attacks), I participated fully, destroying ships, destroying the items in the area conquests, and shooting at the ISS Enterprise. In none of those five cases did I get greater than a Tier I award. I routinely get Tier IV awards in the Dyson BZs. I participate fully, wherever I play.
In the Badlands, I've come to expect that if I see a Vengeance, Scimitar, Tzen-tar, or the Juggernaut where I am fighting, I can kiss higher level awards goodbye. My DPS, however, is not low.
Maybe the disincentive should be based on the TFOs Objectives, be they regular or Optional. Perhaps on the 'good touch' basis. If one of the objectives is to Kill ships that is ranked on how many you have 'touched' with weapons or some sciency power. If an object kill, same. If an object save or capture how many you participated in doing such. If things powered up or things closed likewise. If Optional Objectives are awarded then the participation logic applies to individuals.
I don't know how this can be figured out and it may be complex, but it leads into participation and not just strictly raw DPS. At least with something like 'good touch' figuring into the Award you just can't park yourself out in the Oort Cloud in 'Mirror Incursion' swoop in at the end and get the full Award. You may also need some threshold to meet or exceed to get the dohicky or progress coupons or the like.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
FFS, just remove the whole RTFO system if you're going to arbitrarily exclude content, something which goes completely against the logic (increased frequency of queues launching, more rewards for unexpected situations) as to why the system was added to the game in the first place.
It's not arbitrary. The devs explained it adequately.
The devs need to know if queues are broken or too hard. But collecting that information implies they plan to act on it. This is them acting on it.
No, acting on it would be fixing it. Removing it from RTFOs is just hiding it.
Fixing it would be one way of acting on it, but it's not the only way. "Hiding" it or removing it entirely are ways of acting on it, too.
A simple way to act on it is to ensure it doesn't cause too many people to be bothered.
The missions in the RTFOs mostly seem to be build around a similar level of time needed to be played (with ideally comparable levels of rewards for time spend on them). If a mission tends to be out of line with this expectation, it causes problems, because players cannot predict how long it will take them. For people that have only limited amount of uninterrupted play time, a TFO like Infected causes problems, and it can go so far as to discourage them from even bothering to do RTFOs - or playing the game all together. That is not in Cryptic's interest (and arguably, neither the player's interest.)
I also remember the Cure Applied taking excessively long, so I hope they look at that too.
I am not sure if I'd prefer them to rebuild these missions so they can be returned to the TFO, or if I'd rather see them being turned into a special Elite Only TFOs that can last a bit longer. There is clearly not just demand for the RTFO style shorter group content (which we now already have plenty), but also a desire for some more complex and challenging longer group missions.
markhawkman's implication, as I interpreted it, was that it was removed from RTFOs so that it could be fixed.
That's not true here, and specifically what I meant when I said they haven't acted. All they've done is "hidden" it away from all but those who intentionally seek it out. As we've seen in the past, if Cryptic decides to fix a TFO, they remove it, work on it, then return it, usually with great fanfare and an re-introductory event based on it. Thing is, it's not getting removed or fixed, because they don't have time to work on it, and removing it entirely without a plan to fix it would cause too much in-game/forum fuss. Look at what simply removing it from RTFOs has done.
* Also, to clarify something after I had a chance to re-watch the livestream a few times, Kael didn't ask for it to be removed. He remarked that he was surprised that it hadn't already been removed, as other Borg Ground TFOs already had and confirmed by Jesse. Kael DID say several times, "fix it," because the TFO does suffer from some poor design choices.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Why do people try or advocate AFKing content? Just play the bloody thing. The problem would not seem to be content but with attitude. If Cryptic needs to change something, it is to disintentivize that type of behavior. And not simply by just applying that AFK Penalty, which can be wrongly dispensed. I have never gotten the AFK Penalty.
The other day I had a Hard Endeavor of Kill Terran Ships. I went to the Badlands. I was part of two Boss takedown, but arrived late into the BZ and directly there to begin with, the Terran Counterattack Phase, and then two area conquests. In all cases, while I was there (in the Boss attacks), I participated fully, destroying ships, destroying the items in the area conquests, and shooting at the ISS Enterprise. In none of those five cases did I get greater than a Tier I award. I routinely get Tier IV awards in the Dyson BZs. I participate fully, wherever I play.
In the Badlands, I've come to expect that if I see a Vengeance, Scimitar, Tzen-tar, or the Juggernaut where I am fighting, I can kiss higher level awards goodbye. My DPS, however, is not low.
Maybe the disincentive should be based on the TFOs Objectives, be they regular or Optional. Perhaps on the 'good touch' basis. If one of the objectives is to Kill ships that is ranked on how many you have 'touched' with weapons or some sciency power. If an object kill, same. If an object save or capture how many you participated in doing such. If things powered up or things closed likewise. If Optional Objectives are awarded then the participation logic applies to individuals.
I don't know how this can be figured out and it may be complex, but it leads into participation and not just strictly raw DPS. At least with something like 'good touch' figuring into the Award you just can't park yourself out in the Oort Cloud in 'Mirror Incursion' swoop in at the end and get the full Award. You may also need some threshold to meet or exceed to get the dohicky or progress coupons or the like.
Its not that people want content that they can AFK, its if the content is oversimplified and made auto win its not engaging so they can feel like they may as well AFK it.
For myself I like Infected: Manus because its decent and engaging and once completed you have a feeling of reward and accomplishment due to it being harder than autowin. While newer content like Kobayashi Maru is so boring and pointless it doesn’t engage me so I just activate weapons and go AFK. It’s all about challenge, the feeling of reward and accomplishment which is lost when the content is made to be auto win, auto handout like Kobayashi Maru.
I have been saying for a while now STO overflowing with causal content what it needs and is lacking is fun challenging teem work content. Some of the best times I had in STO was in the original NWS preplanning teams and the old raid style STF's.
Why do people try or advocate AFKing content? Just play the bloody thing. The problem would not seem to be content but with attitude. If Cryptic needs to change something, it is to disintentivize that type of behavior. And not simply by just applying that AFK Penalty, which can be wrongly dispensed. I have never gotten the AFK Penalty.
The other day I had a Hard Endeavor of Kill Terran Ships. I went to the Badlands. I was part of two Boss takedown, but arrived late into the BZ and directly there to begin with, the Terran Counterattack Phase, and then two area conquests. In all cases, while I was there (in the Boss attacks), I participated fully, destroying ships, destroying the items in the area conquests, and shooting at the ISS Enterprise. In none of those five cases did I get greater than a Tier I award. I routinely get Tier IV awards in the Dyson BZs. I participate fully, wherever I play.
In the Badlands, I've come to expect that if I see a Vengeance, Scimitar, Tzen-tar, or the Juggernaut where I am fighting, I can kiss higher level awards goodbye. My DPS, however, is not low.
Maybe the disincentive should be based on the TFOs Objectives, be they regular or Optional. Perhaps on the 'good touch' basis. If one of the objectives is to Kill ships that is ranked on how many you have 'touched' with weapons or some sciency power. If an object kill, same. If an object save or capture how many you participated in doing such. If things powered up or things closed likewise. If Optional Objectives are awarded then the participation logic applies to individuals.
I don't know how this can be figured out and it may be complex, but it leads into participation and not just strictly raw DPS. At least with something like 'good touch' figuring into the Award you just can't park yourself out in the Oort Cloud in 'Mirror Incursion' swoop in at the end and get the full Award. You may also need some threshold to meet or exceed to get the dohicky or progress coupons or the like.
Its not that people want content that they can AFK, its if the content is oversimplified and made auto win its not engaging so they can feel like they may as well AFK it.
For myself I like Infected: Manus because its decent and engaging and once completed you have a feeling of reward and accomplishment due to it being harder than autowin. While newer content like Kobayashi Maru is so boring and pointless it doesn’t engage me so I just activate weapons and go AFK. It’s all about challenge, the feeling of reward and accomplishment which is lost when the content is made to be auto win, auto handout like Kobayashi Maru.
I have been saying for a while now STO overflowing with causal content what it needs and is lacking is fun challenging teem work content. Some of the best times I had in STO was in the original NWS preplanning teams and the old raid style STF's.
Exactly. Overcoming challenge is point of a game. In IGA the challenge comes from the enemies, environment and mission parameters. In content that's programmed to win itself and player effort has no significant effect on the outcome, avoiding wasted effort becomes the challenge to overcome.
Maru doesn't win itself (yet). Someone does actually have to shoot the rubber ducks for it to end. But without a chance to lose, the enemy isn't the challenge to overcome anymore, it's boredom. The only way not to win is to get bored and leave.
Exactly. Overcoming challenge is point of a game. In IGA the challenge comes from the enemies, environment and mission parameters. In content that's programmed to win itself and player effort has no significant effect on the outcome, avoiding wasted effort becomes the challenge to overcome.
If this was actually about overcoming challenge, then the fact that the mission doesn't auto fail the moment you don't 100% one of the objectives wouldn't matter. You would still want to do it for the sake of overcoming the challenge put before you. No, this is about NOT wanting challenge more then anything else.
See, actual challenge comes from mission objectives that requires teamwork to complete. Something like protecting all 9 transports in Operation Riposte, or purifying all the crystals in the time limit in Pahvo Dissension, or rescuing all 80 escape pods in Battle at the Binary Starts, is more changing then pretty much anything in any of the Borg TFOs, because they actually require relying on your team mates to complete an objective.
The Borg TFOs on the other hand require basically no teamwork, and can be almost entirely soloed if you have some absurd DPS. The only reason the bits that actually do require more then one person are hard is because the maps lack proper objective telegraphing that the other TFOs in STO, not to mention most other games, have, meaning most players don't know what to do. If you know what to do, its practically unfailable.
Beyond that, the Borg TFOs aren't particularly challenging, they're just DPS gauntlets due to the fact that they were made in an era of gaming when "challenge" simply meant buffing enemy HP and damage to absurd degrees, and calling it a day. But that isn't actual challenging gameplay, that is just tedious gameplay. It doesn't really require effort, it just requires you to shoot a bigger number.
This is why the Borg TFOs have been hated by most people since at least the game went free to play. The only reason people played them because they were mandatory to get the MACO/OMEGA gear, not because they were actually well designed, or fun, or actually challenging. After the addition of the rep system, where you could get stuff via marks, most people stopped playing the Borg TFOs because they were just as garbage as they always were, now they just weren't forced to play them.
After that, the only reason people really played them was for e-peen measuring contests, aka, DPS contests. And this is really what this and the other complaints about other TFOs are about. Newer TFOs are built around something other then pure DPS, so objectives are more then just "shoot bigger number" so the measuring contest has gone away. The "supremacy" factor people got from rubbing in their 500K DPS into someone's face, like they used to back in the Borg old days, no longer exists. This content was never challenging for those people, nor did they play it for the challenge, they played it to measure DPS, and rub it in the face of others, and now they can't do it.
This is also why these same people dislike the changes to the Maru TFO. The old Maru TFO was just a DPS gauntlet. It wasn't actually challenging by any real measure, which is why those same people were able to spam the game wide notification system with how often they made it to the higher tier waves. It was effortless for them, but since most others weren't as obsessed with grinding DPS, they could rub it in others faces that they could reach the higher levels while everyone else couldn't. They hate the new Maru TFO because its actually something other then a pure DPS gauntlet, and requires actual effort to protect the now suicidal Maru. If they cared about challenge they would love the new version of the Maru because its significantly more challenging, they don't because it was never about challenge, it was about the sheer LACK of challenge for them.
Which is exactly why these same people are the same people going to absurd lengths to try to find every way possible to get out of actually playing any of the game's content. They never wanted to play it, they just wanted to be handed a victory without effort on their part.
Everything meaningful I would have to say to your other then that you are wrong in alot of text of yours is against forum rules and will keep it to myself since I don't want to burden any mods here.
But the fact that you don't have much knowledge regarding the game says this part here:
The Borg TFOs on the other hand require basically no teamwork, and can be almost entirely soloed if you have some absurd DPS.
C-Store Inc. is still looking for active members on the fed side. If you don't have a fleet feel free to contact me in game @stegi.
That's why we've been arguing for how long now? to have content that's actually engaging and challenging, because the newest content is anything but.
But you go ahead with your drivel, @somtaawkhar. You're not gonna convince us that the time-gated stuff you love so much is anything but an AFKer paradise, no matter how much you scream and cry that not completing the OPTIONAL objectives means NOT completing the queue.
That said, as I unfortunately had the "pleasure" of telling you before already: you do you, mate. You do you.
I'm tired of trying to reason with someone that can't be bothered to see anything past their own nose. You enjoy your time-gated drivel, I'll continue to run premade for the last bit of challenge this game has to offer.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
But the fact that you don't have much knowledge regarding the game says this part here
I've played the game since it went F2P. Its long been a point of bragging among the DPS elite about how easily they can solo, or practically solo, the BORG TFOs, both ground and space.
I didn't hear any DPS Elite talking, I was quoting you.
C-Store Inc. is still looking for active members on the fed side. If you don't have a fleet feel free to contact me in game @stegi.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I didn't hear any DPS Elite talking, I was quoting you.
And I responded to your post by pointing out that
A. I have been playing the game for nearly 8 years now, and know very well how it plays.
B. The ability to solo, or nearly solo, the Borg TFOs is a fairly common boast, and has been for years as well.
So, I'm not really sure what the point of your post was.
8 years of playing STO makes you what to me? Nobody ever said to me they were soloing the borg ground tfo's or that dps was required to finish them in the almost 10 years i have been playing this game. I see you like to argue and if I mind remind you, you are writing this nonsense i don't see any DPS'ler here doing that but you seem to like to blame them for quiet a bit.
C-Store Inc. is still looking for active members on the fed side. If you don't have a fleet feel free to contact me in game @stegi.
I didn't hear any DPS Elite talking, I was quoting you.
And I responded to your post by pointing out that
A. I have been playing the game for nearly 8 years now, and know very well how it plays.
B. The ability to solo, or nearly solo, the Borg TFOs is a fairly common boast, and has been for years as well.
So, I'm not really sure what the point of your post was.
8 years of playing STO makes you what to me? Nobody ever said to me they were soloing the borg ground tfo's or that dps was required to finish them in the almost 10 years i have been playing this game.
Indeed, it isn't even theoretically possible to solo the ground STFs because they have interact mechanics that require multiple players.
Indeed, it isn't even theoretically possible to solo the ground STFs because they have interact mechanics that require multiple players.
Hence why I said practically, and nearly, in my posts.
The sad fact is you can't even read your own post right, I will quote you again
The Borg TFOs on the other hand require basically no teamwork, and can be almost entirely soloed if you have some absurd DPS.
I applaud your patience. I truly do.
But a little piece of advice that you're more than free to ignore, of course: it's pointless. You will not get him to understand what you're saying and he will go on with his selective-quoting, editing of his own posts and such nonsense to (try) and prove you're wrong and that you're purposedly misinterpreting him.
On the other hand, feel also more than free to continue. I do so enjoy reading his posts and imagining him trying to climb a mirror of his own making. Once the frustration is passed, it's quite amusing.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
“This is also why these same people dislike the changes to the Maru TFO. The old Maru TFO was just a DPS gauntlet. It wasn't actually challenging by any real measure, which is why those same people were able to spam the game wide notification system with how often they made it to the higher tier waves. It was effortless for them, but since most others weren't as obsessed with grinding DPS, they could rub it in others faces that they could reach the higher levels while everyone else couldn't. They hate the new Maru TFO because its actually something other then a pure DPS gauntlet, and requires actual effort to protect the now suicidal Maru. If they cared about challenge they would love the new version of the Maru because its significantly more challenging, they don't because it was never about challenge, it was about the sheer LACK of challenge for them.”
That is very wrong the old Maru wasn’t just a DPS gauntlet and it wasn't at least for the people I know about spamming game wide notifications. Not that you could spam anyway when there was a limit of 1 time for the message to appear.
We loved it as tactics where involved, I spent ages in teams planning out who did what role, ship setups and piloting. We had team members assigned to areas, others assigned to set roles like anti bombers. It was pure teamwork and strategy not just more DPS. Some members even did close to Zero DPS depending on what job role they had. The old one was challenge, fun and what the player did mattered with multiple different ways of completing it. That made it rewarding to play with a feeling accomplishment when you did it right. I did more then a few runs where I didn't even fire ship weapons and I was still extremely useful to the group. So please stop lying and saying it was all about DPS. It took far more then pure DPS to do the old one. It took team work and tactics.
The new one on the other hand has all the above team work and strategy removed. It no longer matters what setup you take; it no longer matters what your team mates do. Healers are no longer needed or useful. Giving people set roles all removed. The new one no longer has any feeling of reward or feeling accomplishment. Also as far as I am aware there are no longer multiple different play styles for completing it.
There are no more tactics like bombers we have to defend against. It doesn’t matter how smart you play or what tactics you use the new Maru with its disabled engine will move faster then my ship can possibly respond and suicide into the NPC’s. That’s is why we want to see the old one returned as it had real challenge and it mattered what the player did. What we did mattered and that made the old one fun and possible to overcome the challenge. We also don’t like the fact the new one makes no logical sense what so ever. You have a heavily damage ship with zero power, zero engines but can out move a 100% up and running top of the line ship.
Then there is the map design. The old one felt like the enemy where ambushing a damage ship. The layout fault natural and right. The new one feels artificial in a bad way with layout and design.
Not only are you wrong on the Maru but I strongly disagree with your Borg and STF comments. But it’s very late and I have to go.
EDIT: The original Borg STF where impossible to solo, it required team work and working together. Pure DPS didn’t matter if you didn’t have the team work. You couldn’t solo them which high DPS. Content like that are the ones I want to see back in game. Even today the ground ones require team work and cannot be soloed for the most part.
“Which is exactly why these same people are the same people going to absurd lengths to try to find every way possible to get out of actually playing any of the game's content. They never wanted to play it, they just wanted to be handed a victory without effort on their part.”
Clearly you haven’t been listing or don’t understand what we have been saying. We don’t want to AFK and get out of playing. We want content like the old content where it matters what the player does. The main reason we AFK the new content is because players action either don’t matter or barely matter so it’s boring. I would never have AFKed the old Maru because what a player did in that one matters. The new one on the other hand it doesn’t matter one bit what the player does. Just set autofire and walk away and you get the same outcome as playing.
Content where what the player does matters, is far more fun then the recent auto win, auto handout rubbish the devs have been putting out where what a player does barely if at all matters.
Indeed, it isn't even theoretically possible to solo the ground STFs because they have interact mechanics that require multiple players.
Hence why I said practically, and nearly, in my posts.
The sad fact is you can't even read your own post right, I will quote you again
The Borg TFOs on the other hand require basically no teamwork, and can be almost entirely soloed if you have some absurd DPS.
I applaud your patience. I truly do.
But a little piece of advice that you're more than free to ignore, of course: it's pointless. You will not get him to understand what you're saying and he will go on with his selective-quoting, editing of his own posts and such nonsense to (try) and prove you're wrong and that you're purposedly misinterpreting him.
On the other hand, feel also more than free to continue. I do so enjoy reading his posts and imagining him trying to climb a mirror of his own making. Once the frustration is passed, it's quite amusing.
I hear ya. It's hard to make somebody see if he chooses to be blind. The fact the old Borg tfo's are one the few who are actual challenging in terms of teamplay and skill in comparison to the new content.
The reason this tfo was pulled from randoms in my opinion only for one reason. The live stream with KAEL making a fool out of himself by playing something challenging on advanced when you are clearly not suited for that level of gameplay. If you show at the beginning of the stream how you can take a beating while sitting in a promoship geared with epic mk xv equipt I don't wonder that he can't make one jump on infected in the boss room right. The lack of skill was very clear and to blame the tfo for such is just laughable. Cause that TFO once a Raid has been working just fine for the better of 8-9 years not sure when they switched the raids in stf's since its been awhile.
So I'm assume once he will play the other TFO's on advanced and starts collecting an album full of injuries we will see them getting pulled as well. Cause we can't have anything in this game where you can actually fail and learn from your mistakes. Best is not to learn at all get every reward already for logging in. I hate the direction the game industry is going and i hope it will bite them where it hurts the most.
C-Store Inc. is still looking for active members on the fed side. If you don't have a fleet feel free to contact me in game @stegi.
Comments
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
My character Tsin'xing
STO is not a hard game.. period.
If you want a challenge, Elite Queues are your best bet, but nothing in advanced is particularly difficult. The fact is that STO gamers expect everything to be handed to them. If there is any challenge at all, or any chance to fail, it's called 'too hard.'
Nothing in Advanced should be 'too hard' for anyone. If it is, then they just need a little practice, which is fine.
If the map is broken and can't be passed, that's another issue of course. The fact alone that you are calling the end a 'jump puzzle' is a perfect example. It takes an occasional jump from one large object to another.. that's hardly a 'jump puzzle' but because there is a chance you can fall and die.. it's labeled 'too hard.'
Again, you should try actually playing the map. It's clear from the stuff you have typed that you don't really know the map very well, you need to try actually playing it and you'll see it's not hard at all. Anyone that ever plays this map knows the 'too hard' argument is laughable.
And no, it's not me claiming to be some elite pro.. I'm far from it, the content is just easy enough for a scrub like me to walk through it. You would too if you ever actually tried. Just because it might be a little harder then a couple other queues doesn't make it 'too hard.' It's slightly harder then other incredibly easy content.
Well, that is the crux of the matter. Is this too hard to be advanced? But you did say this: So I guess you fundamentally agree that it's harder than what is considered normal for an advanced TFO.
My character Tsin'xing
And your guess would be wrong.
There is a difference between 'harder then average' and 'too hard.'
While it's a little tougher then some other queues, it's still well within the bounds of difficulty for advanced queues.
It seems we have a fundamental difference here that we're just not going to get around, I am not going to convince you that this mission is not too difficult, and you're not going to convince me that it is. Probably best we just agree to disagree here, because there is no way I am going to be convinced that this map is too hard to be an advanced queue.
I can second that.
Fixing it would be one way of acting on it, but it's not the only way. "Hiding" it or removing it entirely are ways of acting on it, too.
A simple way to act on it is to ensure it doesn't cause too many people to be bothered.
The missions in the RTFOs mostly seem to be build around a similar level of time needed to be played (with ideally comparable levels of rewards for time spend on them). If a mission tends to be out of line with this expectation, it causes problems, because players cannot predict how long it will take them. For people that have only limited amount of uninterrupted play time, a TFO like Infected causes problems, and it can go so far as to discourage them from even bothering to do RTFOs - or playing the game all together. That is not in Cryptic's interest (and arguably, neither the player's interest.)
I also remember the Cure Applied taking excessively long, so I hope they look at that too.
I am not sure if I'd prefer them to rebuild these missions so they can be returned to the TFO, or if I'd rather see them being turned into a special Elite Only TFOs that can last a bit longer. There is clearly not just demand for the RTFO style shorter group content (which we now already have plenty), but also a desire for some more complex and challenging longer group missions.
Hiding it away to "ensure it doesn't cause too many people to be bothered" is not acting on anything.
And if the "level of time" is the problem, then remove stuff like Battle of Procyon V and Gravity Kills, too.
Remove Crystalline Catastrophe, since it's so short and do something for ISA, too, because it can last less than two minutes or it go on for forty, depending on the team you have.
Infected does NOT cause problems. People not wanting to learn and to play in a team does. Period.
And news flash: unless it's time-gated, every STF can last forever so, by your own reasoning, every STF needs to be removed from the random. But that's the point: if it's not time-gated auto-win stuff, it's "too hard", "takes too long", "bother too many people" and "causes problems".
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Well of course it is. Because "what is considered normal for an advanced TFO" these days is the game winning itself with no player input required.
Walking down the street is harder than STO autowin.
The other day I had a Hard Endeavor of Kill Terran Ships. I went to the Badlands. I was part of two Boss takedown, but arrived late into the BZ and directly there to begin with, the Terran Counterattack Phase, and then two area conquests. In all cases, while I was there (in the Boss attacks), I participated fully, destroying ships, destroying the items in the area conquests, and shooting at the ISS Enterprise. In none of those five cases did I get greater than a Tier I award. I routinely get Tier IV awards in the Dyson BZs. I participate fully, wherever I play.
In the Badlands, I've come to expect that if I see a Vengeance, Scimitar, Tzen-tar, or the Juggernaut where I am fighting, I can kiss higher level awards goodbye. My DPS, however, is not low.
Maybe the disincentive should be based on the TFOs Objectives, be they regular or Optional. Perhaps on the 'good touch' basis. If one of the objectives is to Kill ships that is ranked on how many you have 'touched' with weapons or some sciency power. If an object kill, same. If an object save or capture how many you participated in doing such. If things powered up or things closed likewise. If Optional Objectives are awarded then the participation logic applies to individuals.
I don't know how this can be figured out and it may be complex, but it leads into participation and not just strictly raw DPS. At least with something like 'good touch' figuring into the Award you just can't park yourself out in the Oort Cloud in 'Mirror Incursion' swoop in at the end and get the full Award. You may also need some threshold to meet or exceed to get the dohicky or progress coupons or the like.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
markhawkman's implication, as I interpreted it, was that it was removed from RTFOs so that it could be fixed.
That's not true here, and specifically what I meant when I said they haven't acted. All they've done is "hidden" it away from all but those who intentionally seek it out. As we've seen in the past, if Cryptic decides to fix a TFO, they remove it, work on it, then return it, usually with great fanfare and an re-introductory event based on it. Thing is, it's not getting removed or fixed, because they don't have time to work on it, and removing it entirely without a plan to fix it would cause too much in-game/forum fuss. Look at what simply removing it from RTFOs has done.
* Also, to clarify something after I had a chance to re-watch the livestream a few times, Kael didn't ask for it to be removed. He remarked that he was surprised that it hadn't already been removed, as other Borg Ground TFOs already had and confirmed by Jesse. Kael DID say several times, "fix it," because the TFO does suffer from some poor design choices.
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For myself I like Infected: Manus because its decent and engaging and once completed you have a feeling of reward and accomplishment due to it being harder than autowin. While newer content like Kobayashi Maru is so boring and pointless it doesn’t engage me so I just activate weapons and go AFK. It’s all about challenge, the feeling of reward and accomplishment which is lost when the content is made to be auto win, auto handout like Kobayashi Maru.
I have been saying for a while now STO overflowing with causal content what it needs and is lacking is fun challenging teem work content. Some of the best times I had in STO was in the original NWS preplanning teams and the old raid style STF's.
Maru doesn't win itself (yet). Someone does actually have to shoot the rubber ducks for it to end. But without a chance to lose, the enemy isn't the challenge to overcome anymore, it's boredom. The only way not to win is to get bored and leave.
Everything meaningful I would have to say to your other then that you are wrong in alot of text of yours is against forum rules and will keep it to myself since I don't want to burden any mods here.
But the fact that you don't have much knowledge regarding the game says this part here:
But you go ahead with your drivel, @somtaawkhar. You're not gonna convince us that the time-gated stuff you love so much is anything but an AFKer paradise, no matter how much you scream and cry that not completing the OPTIONAL objectives means NOT completing the queue.
That said, as I unfortunately had the "pleasure" of telling you before already: you do you, mate. You do you.
I'm tired of trying to reason with someone that can't be bothered to see anything past their own nose. You enjoy your time-gated drivel, I'll continue to run premade for the last bit of challenge this game has to offer.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
I didn't hear any DPS Elite talking, I was quoting you.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
8 years of playing STO makes you what to me? Nobody ever said to me they were soloing the borg ground tfo's or that dps was required to finish them in the almost 10 years i have been playing this game. I see you like to argue and if I mind remind you, you are writing this nonsense i don't see any DPS'ler here doing that but you seem to like to blame them for quiet a bit.
The sad fact is you can't even read your own post right, I will quote you again
I applaud your patience. I truly do.
But a little piece of advice that you're more than free to ignore, of course: it's pointless. You will not get him to understand what you're saying and he will go on with his selective-quoting, editing of his own posts and such nonsense to (try) and prove you're wrong and that you're purposedly misinterpreting him.
On the other hand, feel also more than free to continue. I do so enjoy reading his posts and imagining him trying to climb a mirror of his own making. Once the frustration is passed, it's quite amusing.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
We loved it as tactics where involved, I spent ages in teams planning out who did what role, ship setups and piloting. We had team members assigned to areas, others assigned to set roles like anti bombers. It was pure teamwork and strategy not just more DPS. Some members even did close to Zero DPS depending on what job role they had. The old one was challenge, fun and what the player did mattered with multiple different ways of completing it. That made it rewarding to play with a feeling accomplishment when you did it right. I did more then a few runs where I didn't even fire ship weapons and I was still extremely useful to the group. So please stop lying and saying it was all about DPS. It took far more then pure DPS to do the old one. It took team work and tactics.
The new one on the other hand has all the above team work and strategy removed. It no longer matters what setup you take; it no longer matters what your team mates do. Healers are no longer needed or useful. Giving people set roles all removed. The new one no longer has any feeling of reward or feeling accomplishment. Also as far as I am aware there are no longer multiple different play styles for completing it.
There are no more tactics like bombers we have to defend against. It doesn’t matter how smart you play or what tactics you use the new Maru with its disabled engine will move faster then my ship can possibly respond and suicide into the NPC’s. That’s is why we want to see the old one returned as it had real challenge and it mattered what the player did. What we did mattered and that made the old one fun and possible to overcome the challenge. We also don’t like the fact the new one makes no logical sense what so ever. You have a heavily damage ship with zero power, zero engines but can out move a 100% up and running top of the line ship.
Then there is the map design. The old one felt like the enemy where ambushing a damage ship. The layout fault natural and right. The new one feels artificial in a bad way with layout and design.
Not only are you wrong on the Maru but I strongly disagree with your Borg and STF comments. But it’s very late and I have to go.
EDIT: The original Borg STF where impossible to solo, it required team work and working together. Pure DPS didn’t matter if you didn’t have the team work. You couldn’t solo them which high DPS. Content like that are the ones I want to see back in game. Even today the ground ones require team work and cannot be soloed for the most part.
Clearly you haven’t been listing or don’t understand what we have been saying. We don’t want to AFK and get out of playing. We want content like the old content where it matters what the player does. The main reason we AFK the new content is because players action either don’t matter or barely matter so it’s boring. I would never have AFKed the old Maru because what a player did in that one matters. The new one on the other hand it doesn’t matter one bit what the player does. Just set autofire and walk away and you get the same outcome as playing.
Content where what the player does matters, is far more fun then the recent auto win, auto handout rubbish the devs have been putting out where what a player does barely if at all matters.
I hear ya. It's hard to make somebody see if he chooses to be blind. The fact the old Borg tfo's are one the few who are actual challenging in terms of teamplay and skill in comparison to the new content.
The reason this tfo was pulled from randoms in my opinion only for one reason. The live stream with KAEL making a fool out of himself by playing something challenging on advanced when you are clearly not suited for that level of gameplay. If you show at the beginning of the stream how you can take a beating while sitting in a promoship geared with epic mk xv equipt I don't wonder that he can't make one jump on infected in the boss room right. The lack of skill was very clear and to blame the tfo for such is just laughable. Cause that TFO once a Raid has been working just fine for the better of 8-9 years not sure when they switched the raids in stf's since its been awhile.
So I'm assume once he will play the other TFO's on advanced and starts collecting an album full of injuries we will see them getting pulled as well. Cause we can't have anything in this game where you can actually fail and learn from your mistakes. Best is not to learn at all get every reward already for logging in. I hate the direction the game industry is going and i hope it will bite them where it hurts the most.