Unofficial sources say this is the Prime Timeline, changed by a "Nero event" ie, a complete full-on reboot of Star Trek.
No. Not at all. The 'Nero Event', or as it's properly known, the Kelvin Timeline, is not a reboot of any type and thus one involving Sarek would also not be a reboot of any kind.
Reboots are separate continuities not related to new ones. Examples include the late 2000s Hulk and Spider-Man films, they were later rebooted in the MCU, or the DCEU rebooting The Dark Knight trilogy. All Star Trek films ans shows exist within the same continuity and are therefore not reboots.
They're pretty gaudy looking uniforms anyway. Not to mention they don't even match the era. They can keep them.
We've never seen the DSC era so you have absolutely no way of backing that up.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
They're pretty gaudy looking uniforms anyway. Not to mention they don't even match the era. They can keep them.
We've never seen the DSC era so you have absolutely no way of backing that up.
Um, if DSC takes place in 2255 as it states on Memory Alpha, that means the USS Enterprise (NCC-1701) has already been comissioned for 10 years, based on the launch date of 2245.
So there's that...
Space Barbie Extraordinaire. Got a question about Space Barbie? Just ask.
Things I want in STO:
1) More character customization options such as more clothing options, letting the toon complexion affect the entire body, not just the head. Also a true RGB color picker applied to all costume and appearance options, which would allow for true appearance customization and homogenous colors instead of "this same exact color looks vastly different on two different pieces."
2) Bridge customization, not bridge packs. Let us pick a general layout and adjust the color palette, console appearance, and chair types, as well as more ready room layout options.
3) Customizable ground weapons, i.e. The aesthetic look of phaser dual pistols but they shoot antiproton bolts. For obvious reasons this would only apply to standard ground weapons.
4) For the love of Q please revamp Plasma Ground Weapons. They look like demented Supersoakers right now.
5) True Vanity Impulse and Deflector effects similar to Vanity Shields.
6) A greater payout for hitting T6 Reputations. Currently it takes more time and resources to get from T5 to T6 than it does to get from nothing to T5. Make that grind really pay out at the end.
7) Mirrorverse Refugee event similar to AoY/Delta/Gamma, complete with new Mirrorverse recruits for all factions.
8) Independent Faction, because yo ho yo ho a pirate's life for me!
Red, I think you're conflating folks' commentary on how the SFX look like Kelvin Timeline to them, with Simon Pegg's statement that Nero's interference had ripples up and down the Kelvin timeline, which is why things look different in the new Trek movies than you might expect. That one is a Trek reimagining (not a reboot as such), as aspects of the history may have been altered by said ripples.
DSC (I still like ST:D as an acronym, but I have an odd sense of humor) has been stated, repeatedly, to be Prime Timeline. There have been rumors of crosstime interference, but those are rumors only. And these uniforms look to me like some sort of transitional state between the ENT jumpsuits and the TOS velour turtlenecks, so there you go. You don't like them, feel free to dislike them - Great Bird knows I didn't care for the space pajamas in the first two seasons of TNG - but if that's your sticking point for enjoying the series, I feel I must call into question whether you ever "got" Star Trek in the first place.
Canonical existence aside (and we're really pushing canonical here as if Discovery takes place when it does, they should all be wearing Wrath of Khan uniforms... just saying) and personal nitpicks about the use of KT instead of Kelvin (I see KT and I think KT Boundary, not Kelvin Timeline), the chances of Star Trek Online getting a Discovery tie-in isn't actually all that good. Cryptic doesn't have unrestricted access to CBS assets. That's not how licensing agreements work. Cryptic has to license assets on a per-asset basis. In this case, they'd have to negotiate a license for Discovery's assets because it doesn't fall within their present agreement with CBS. Legality can be a real pain sometimes.
Now, I can hear you now, "But it's Star Trek, they can use it if they want!" Well, back in the days of Mechwarrior (in that bygone era of 1989), FASA released a techbook featuring art from Japanese fans for a number of designs. And hey had the rights for that particular use of said art. But then FASA went and made miniatures of said designs, which they didn't have the rights to do. They got sued. It was ugly. Those designs were rereleased years later with different art and miniatures under the moniker 'reseen'. You can't just up and use something just because of a perceived right of usage. You have to make sure you have the right to use it before you do anything.
DSC (I still like ST:D as an acronym, but I have an odd sense of humor) has been stated, repeatedly, to be Prime Timeline. There have been rumors of crosstime interference, but those are rumors only. And these uniforms look to me like some sort of transitional state between the ENT jumpsuits and the TOS velour turtlenecks, so there you go. You don't like them, feel free to dislike them - Great Bird knows I didn't care for the space pajamas in the first two seasons of TNG - but if that's your sticking point for enjoying the series, I feel I must call into question whether you ever "got" Star Trek in the first place.
It was stated ONCE that it was Prime Timeline. That was from a person who stopped working on Discovery prior to the recasting earlier this year.
The point I was making is that numerous creative influences have come and gone since then. The results of the prescreening indicate additional changes to the show.
At no point have I made any value judgement on Discovery or the uniforms. I was pointing out the fact that the show is most likely changed from the original premise. Multiple sources (MULTIPLE SOURCES, not from tabloids) have stated that Sarek is going to change the Prime Timeline "in a major way, just like Nero". CBS has also given writers the "freedom" of making humans act like jerks to increase the drama. The end result will be new Star Trek stories that "meet the expectations of modern viewers" - Entertainment Weekly. If YOU feel this is good or bad, that is your opinion. I have none.
I have not seen Discovery. Discovery was supposed to be 12 episodes, but they increased it to 15. Even with all the changes to the show, SOMEONE at CBS feels confident enough in Discovery to create 3 more episodes. That does not suggest the show is "in trouble". CBS is sending the cast of Discovery to the San Diego Comic-Con later this month. Hopefully, we'll get some indication of the current direction of Discovery from that event.
I'll be there in the audience looking to line up for the Q&A portion of the panel. I have a single burning question I want to run past a producer live on camera...
...and probably missing out on the KT admiral uniform again .
DSC (I still like ST:D as an acronym, but I have an odd sense of humor) has been stated, repeatedly, to be Prime Timeline. There have been rumors of crosstime interference, but those are rumors only. And these uniforms look to me like some sort of transitional state between the ENT jumpsuits and the TOS velour turtlenecks, so there you go. You don't like them, feel free to dislike them - Great Bird knows I didn't care for the space pajamas in the first two seasons of TNG - but if that's your sticking point for enjoying the series, I feel I must call into question whether you ever "got" Star Trek in the first place.
It was stated ONCE that it was Prime Timeline. That was from a person who stopped working on Discovery prior to the recasting earlier this year.
The point I was making is that numerous creative influences have come and gone since then. The results of the prescreening indicate additional changes to the show.
At no point have I made any value judgement on Discovery or the uniforms. I was pointing out the fact that the show is most likely changed from the original premise. Multiple sources (MULTIPLE SOURCES, not from tabloids) have stated that Sarek is going to change the Prime Timeline "in a major way, just like Nero". CBS has also given writers the "freedom" of making humans act like jerks to increase the drama. The end result will be new Star Trek stories that "meet the expectations of modern viewers" - Entertainment Weekly. If YOU feel this is good or bad, that is your opinion. I have none.
I have not seen Discovery. Discovery was supposed to be 12 episodes, but they increased it to 15. Even with all the changes to the show, SOMEONE at CBS feels confident enough in Discovery to create 3 more episodes. That does not suggest the show is "in trouble". CBS is sending the cast of Discovery to the San Diego Comic-Con later this month. Hopefully, we'll get some indication of the current direction of Discovery from that event.
I've seen nothing that says Sarek changes the prime timeline. What are the sources you saw?
They're pretty gaudy looking uniforms anyway. Not to mention they don't even match the era. They can keep them.
We've never seen the DSC era so you have absolutely no way of backing that up.
Um, if DSC takes place in 2255 as it states on Memory Alpha, that means the USS Enterprise (NCC-1701) has already been comissioned for 10 years, based on the launch date of 2245.
So there's that...
And? We know DSC takes place around 2255 but the DSC era obviously extend backwards. Otherwise it's like saying ENT is set in 2161 because that's where it was last set.
We also know that Starfleet phases uniforms in. The Antares crew were wearing Cage uniforms in TOS, Extras were wearing the first TNG uniform in later series, DS9 and later TNG uniforms coexisted, VGR was wearing a different uniform to DS9 at the same time, later VGR was still wearing a older uniform whilst DS9 and TNG had switched to the FC uniforms.
DSC era uniforms still being worn by 2255 is not an issue to anybody who's ever seen the show.
Red, I think you're conflating folks' commentary on how the SFX look like Kelvin Timeline to them, with Simon Pegg's statement that Nero's interference had ripples up and down the Kelvin timeline, which is why things look different in the new Trek movies than you might expect. That one is a Trek reimagining (not a reboot as such), as aspects of the history may have been altered by said ripples.
A statement that is not canon, and contradicted by the explanation given in 09 and by every other example of parallel timelines ever used in ST.
Canonical existence aside (and we're really pushing canonical here as if Discovery takes place when it does, they should all be wearing Wrath of Khan uniforms... just saying)
I was pointing out the fact that the show is most likely changed from the original premise. Multiple sources (MULTIPLE SOURCES, not from tabloids) have stated that Sarek is going to change the Prime Timeline "in a major way, just like Nero".
All reporting from the same original rumour. So gibberish in other words.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
DSC era uniforms still being worn by 2255 is not an issue to anybody who's ever seen the show.
It is when people know that they're not what should have been worn Could Discovery shift to the Axanar/Cage/TOS uniforms during the course of its run? Absolutely. I wouldn't, however, want to call the odds of them actually doing so
A statement that is not canon,
No, just made by the guy who has now written canon. Do you seriously believe that your interpretation to strictly onscreen canon, trumps the opinion of the guy who wrote the last movie?? The Technical Manual and Encyclopedia aren't canon either, but they were used by the writers when writing what became canon: If the writers and producers respect them, you have to give them, and their statements, the same credibility
and contradicted by the explanation given in 09 and by every other example of parallel timelines ever used in ST.
Technically, superceded by the later statement by Pegg The latter, supercedes the former, not vice versa You can't use the notion that Trek uniforms can be subject to change on a whim Because That's What They Do, while insisting their explanations of parallel timelines can't change for the same reason. If anything can be changed on a whim, that means that that applies to all things, not just the ones you want to remain concrete when you want to use it to illustrate a point
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,829Community Moderator
The point I believe people are trying to make is we don't know when Cage uniforms came into service. It is entirely possible that Discovery style is like the TNG season 1 uniforms in later seasons of TNG. Still around. Or maybe the Discovery style was the uniform and they are only now starting to phase in Cage style.
In short...
We don't know.
Honestly the best solution to all this is just to wait and see what happens rather than getting all cranky, rowdy, and frankly butthurt over some detail BEFORE THE DANG SHOW EVEN AIRS!
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
The point I believe people are trying to make is we don't know when Cage uniforms came into service. It is entirely possible that Discovery style is like the TNG season 1 uniforms in later seasons of TNG. Still around. Or maybe the Discovery style was the uniform and they are only now starting to phase in Cage style.
In short...
We don't know.
Honestly the best solution to all this is just to wait and see what happens rather than getting all cranky, rowdy, and frankly butthurt over some detail BEFORE THE DANG SHOW EVEN AIRS!
[/soapbox]
Sure, it's possible, that the Cage style uniforms will be phased in, but I consider it unlikely that we'll see that transition take part in Discovery's run. I've said before, that one opinion I read somewhere online, was that Discovery might be best considered a sequel to Enterprise, rather than a prequel to TOS. Another option, is that it's just going to be a complete reboot/reworking. Another still, is that they simply aren't allowing themselves to be behilden to previous canon, and just going to do whatever they feel will be good for the most contemporary audience. And if that's the case, they might as well have bought Space Command from Marc Zicree (but they knew that that won't be sufficient as the flagship show for their streaming service, so went with what they knew would draw interest: Star Trek) rather than making a series which appears to be Star Trek in name only As has been noted above, the statements made prior to the behind the scenes changes which have happened, really can't be taken at the same validity which they were before changes were made
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Many Trek fans are going to watch this...and complain about it. As for me, I'm not even going to see it The great and well-respected Mr Roddenberry would be spinning in his grave if he knew how the Star Trek name has been getting bastardised by movie makers, who have been trying to put their own "spin" on the Star Trek universe in recent years. I tried to give the new recent Trek movies a go, and all I saw were a bunch of frat kids bickering and arguing instead of acting like Subordinate officers. After watching the second movie, the WOK rehash, I swore I would never see another Kelvin BS movie again. It will be the same for this series also.
So here's an Idea for CBS. Why not create a whole new game called Star Trek: Corporate Cash Register, and put all the Kelvin & Discovery BS in there? Or alternitavely, try sticking to the storyline and actually release a ST series that people will actually follow with the timeline?
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,829Community Moderator
rather than making a series which appears to be Star Trek in name only...
Which begs the question...
What makes Star Trek Star Trek?
Is it limited to ONLY what "Saint Roddenberry" envisioned? Or is it more that that? What makes DS9 more Star Trek than Voyager? What makes TOS more Star Trek than Enterprise?
Star Trek is a universe, with concepts, technology, and species established in previous shows. Warp Drive as we know it, Klingons, Starfleet... that all exists in the universe of Star Trek. We have a wide range of lore that built up this universe. But it is certainly NOT limited to the narrow view of one ship anymore. It no longer is bound to just the views of Kirk and his crew. Its much bigger than that.
Many criticize Archer in Enterprise for making mistakes that future captains wouldn't have made. Well guess what... Even Kirk had a book to go off of. Archer was literally WRITING that book. How Archer got command of Enterprise was actually covered in the show. Many captains competed for command of the NX-01. It was a plum assignment and Archer won. His friend, who he competed against and even helped him to prove the concept of the Warp 5 Engine in the testbed ship (which they even had to steal to actually prove it worked because of the Vulcans), would have been Captain of the Columbia if he hadn't been killed.
Some criticize Janeway for some of her actions too. But people fail to realize that Voyager was alone in the Delta Quadrant, so sometimes to survive you have to bend the rules. The short lived alliance with the Borg was one of necessity. The Undine had shown NO interest in negotiating with Voyager and were on the warpath. They didn't CARE that Voyager was different. Janeway went into that alliance knowing that the second they were no longer of use the Borg would turn on them and made plans for it.
While Star Trek Voyager had its problems, stemming from too many writers wanting to do their own things, it is no less Star Trek than TOS was back in the day. Hell... Deep Space Nine wasn't even based on a ship, and had full on WAR! If we're measuring the worth of a Star Trek show based on factors tracing back to TOS... then DS9 is by far the LEAST Star Trek of all Star Trek. Yet people cite DS9 as one of the better shows.
So again... begs the question...
What makes Star Trek Star Trek?
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
So again... begs the question...
What makes Star Trek Star Trek?
That is simple to answer. Sticking to the damn story and timeline. For me, TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT all had their own flair, and yet slid into Roddenbery's universe nicely. In recent years there has been a carpet-bombing of remakes, and in my eyes, all of them have fallen on their faces. Robocop, Total Recall, Judge Dredd, and that god awful river of TRIBBLE-gravy called Ghostbusters? All the "creators" & wriers have all had the same thought. "Lets cash in on a successful franchaise, but we do our own thing..."
Not only is it getting boring, but it's disgusting that these movie/show makers are just using successful franchaises as cheap and very obvious cash-ins.
Also, it wont be done with clever modelling & set design, it will all be CGI'd to buggery & back.
rather than making a series which appears to be Star Trek in name only...
Which begs the question...
What makes Star Trek Star Trek?
Is it limited to ONLY what "Saint Roddenberry" envisioned? Or is it more that that? What makes DS9 more Star Trek than Voyager? What makes TOS more Star Trek than Enterprise?
Star Trek is a universe, with concepts, technology, and species established in previous shows. Warp Drive as we know it, Klingons, Starfleet... that all exists in the universe of Star Trek. We have a wide range of lore that built up this universe. But it is certainly NOT limited to the narrow view of one ship anymore. It no longer is bound to just the views of Kirk and his crew. Its much bigger than that.
Many criticize Archer in Enterprise for making mistakes that future captains wouldn't have made. Well guess what... Even Kirk had a book to go off of. Archer was literally WRITING that book. How Archer got command of Enterprise was actually covered in the show. Many captains competed for command of the NX-01. It was a plum assignment and Archer won. His friend, who he competed against and even helped him to prove the concept of the Warp 5 Engine in the testbed ship (which they even had to steal to actually prove it worked because of the Vulcans), would have been Captain of the Columbia if he hadn't been killed.
Some criticize Janeway for some of her actions too. But people fail to realize that Voyager was alone in the Delta Quadrant, so sometimes to survive you have to bend the rules. The short lived alliance with the Borg was one of necessity. The Undine had shown NO interest in negotiating with Voyager and were on the warpath. They didn't CARE that Voyager was different. Janeway went into that alliance knowing that the second they were no longer of use the Borg would turn on them and made plans for it.
While Star Trek Voyager had its problems, stemming from too many writers wanting to do their own things, it is no less Star Trek than TOS was back in the day. Hell... Deep Space Nine wasn't even based on a ship, and had full on WAR! If we're measuring the worth of a Star Trek show based on factors tracing back to TOS... then DS9 is by far the LEAST Star Trek of all Star Trek. Yet people cite DS9 as one of the better shows.
So again... begs the question...
What makes Star Trek Star Trek?
ironmako's pretty much summed up what I would have said, but I will add the following for DS 9.
The rumor, is that the suits stole J. Michael Straczynski's concept for Babylon 5, transposed it into the TNG universe, and boom. DS 9 arguably was the 'least Trek' in terms of 'boldly going', but it was still strongly written, well acted, well produced. It gained popularity on the strengths of its own merits as a show. I was never someone who doubted it, I was always excited when I first learned of its release, and I loved it. So yes, it gets cited as one of the better shows, because it was one of the better shows
To ask 'what makes Star Trek Star Trek', I feel is to miss the point and begging the question.
The questions which are the most honest to ask about Discovery, are:
How does this align with what we have previously see?
Is it remaining true to the ethos of the original source material and concepts?
Is the name being used as a cash-grab?
Like I said, Marc Zicree's Star Command looks pretty good for a crowdfunded project, imagine what it could be like with CBS/Netflix footing the bill? Oh, but no one recognizes the name, so won't be lured into buying the streaming service? Well that's no good!
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,829Community Moderator
That is simple to answer. Sticking to the damn story and timeline.
But there's the thing. Do we KNOW, without a doubt, what happened in that time period other than what was shown in one pilot episode of TOS, which was from the POV of only the USS Enterprise?
They could have put the new show between Generations (Ent-B launch) and TNG, and people would still rant and rave about how things "should" be.
The problem is some people have their own measuring stick to determine what is Trek and what isn't, and they are beating everyone over the head with it trying to get others to accept THEIR interpretation of what Trek is. My mom knows someone who lives by the mantra "If Roddenberry was not involved, its not Star Trek", thus totally ignoring EVERYTHING after TNG season 2.
Basically we ALL have our own views on what Trek means to us. Some people just seem to get so defensive of others views that they try and beat them down with their "True fan" stick and claiming things must be a certain way, look a certain way, ect.
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if some of those "True Fans" would be insulted if a show set around the time period of TOS wasn't filmed on a 1960s camera.
These arguments about what is, what should be, and what MUST be... are honestly petty and only good for starting fights. It is also contrary to one of the main things IN Star Trek, the Vulcan Philosophy of IDIC. Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.
From a business standpoint, an episode or two with 1960s style sets is good for a tribute. But for a full modern day show the tech would look WOEFULLY dated as our modern day desktop computers make them look like toasters and would only serve as a draw for ONLY fans of TOS. To draw in new viewers, you'd need something shiny, Not unmarked jellybean buttons on a cardboard console.
Star Trek is what WE, the Fans, make of it. No one person is right. No one person has the right to shove their views on it down others throats and say "you're not a true fan unless you believe x".
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
So again... begs the question...
What makes Star Trek Star Trek?
That is simple to answer. Sticking to the damn story and timeline. For me, TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT all had their own flair, and yet slid into Roddenbery's universe nicely. In recent years there has been a carpet-bombing of remakes, and in my eyes, all of them have fallen on their faces. Robocop, Total Recall, Judge Dredd, and that god awful river of ****-gravy called Ghostbusters? All the "creators" & wriers have all had the same thought. "Lets cash in on a successful franchaise, but we do our own thing..."
Not only is it getting boring, but it's disgusting that these movie/show makers are just using successful franchaises as cheap and very obvious cash-ins.
Also, it wont be done with clever modelling & set design, it will all be CGI'd to buggery & back.
The Dredd movie with Karl Urban was actually quite good.....it nailed the background material perfectly, far better than the Stallone film. Problem is, the Dredd series isn't all that well known here in the US, and they didn't market it well to compensate. But you're right about the others....they sucked horribly.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,829Community Moderator
Yea... Dredd was actually pretty good. And Karl Urban did very well considering we never could see anything besides his mouth that ENTIRE movie.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Yea... Dredd was actually pretty good. And Karl Urban did very well considering we never could see anything besides his mouth that ENTIRE movie.
In the decades that strip has been running, Dredd's whole face has never been depicted. According to the writers, that wasn't intentional at first, but eventually it became a rule. Stallone's ego wouldn't allow that though so he took his helmet off. Just another way the Urban film is truer to the source material.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,829Community Moderator
At least the Stallone movie gave us one of the BEST ad lib lines ever.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
So again... begs the question...
What makes Star Trek Star Trek?
That is simple to answer. Sticking to the damn story and timeline. For me, TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT all had their own flair, and yet slid into Roddenbery's universe nicely. In recent years there has been a carpet-bombing of remakes, and in my eyes, all of them have fallen on their faces. Robocop, Total Recall, Judge Dredd, and that god awful river of ****-gravy called Ghostbusters? All the "creators" & wriers have all had the same thought. "Lets cash in on a successful franchaise, but we do our own thing..."
Not only is it getting boring, but it's disgusting that these movie/show makers are just using successful franchaises as cheap and very obvious cash-ins.
Also, it wont be done with clever modelling & set design, it will all be CGI'd to buggery & back.
The Dredd movie with Karl Urban was actually quite good.....it nailed the background material perfectly, far better than the Stallone film. Problem is, the Dredd series isn't all that well known here in the US, and they didn't market it well to compensate. But you're right about the others....they sucked horribly.
The coolest part of the new Ghostbusters is that they establish in the movie that it's the same universe as the previous films, even though the main characters are different. The cab scene was the funniest part of the movie though. Ahnold's Total Recall was, from what I've heard, not as good of an adaptation of the book as the new one.
IMO it needed one thing and one thing alone. A more colorful uniform for Dredd and the other judges. Honestly, it'd probably have been more popular if they had.
The real problem with the uniform isn't canon, that's been shown to be fluid in STO given some of the ships we've gotten. It, as I've mentioned already, is the issue of legalese (wow, spell check says that's a word... the times we live in). As has been shown in the past with cries for some of the other Enterprise Vulcan ships and T6 variants of T1 and T2 ships, Perfect World would have to negotiate for the rights to reproduce designs for the game. Doesn't matter if this is Star Trek Online, it's not Star Trek Discovery and that makes all the difference in regards to copyright and trademark law.
Whether Perfect World feels it's economically viable to negotiate for those rights is out of our hands. But if you feel you can petition their hand, feel free. Who knows, it just might work.
So again... begs the question...
What makes Star Trek Star Trek?
That is simple to answer. Sticking to the damn story and timeline. For me, TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT all had their own flair, and yet slid into Roddenbery's universe nicely. In recent years there has been a carpet-bombing of remakes, and in my eyes, all of them have fallen on their faces. Robocop, Total Recall, Judge Dredd, and that god awful river of ****-gravy called Ghostbusters? All the "creators" & wriers have all had the same thought. "Lets cash in on a successful franchaise, but we do our own thing..."
Not only is it getting boring, but it's disgusting that these movie/show makers are just using successful franchaises as cheap and very obvious cash-ins.
Also, it wont be done with clever modelling & set design, it will all be CGI'd to buggery & back.
The Dredd movie with Karl Urban was actually quite good.....it nailed the background material perfectly, far better than the Stallone film. Problem is, the Dredd series isn't all that well known here in the US, and they didn't market it well to compensate. But you're right about the others....they sucked horribly.
The coolest part of the new Ghostbusters is that they establish in the movie that it's the same universe as the previous films, even though the main characters are different. The cab scene was the funniest part of the movie though. Ahnold's Total Recall was, from what I've heard, not as good of an adaptation of the book as the new one.
IMO it needed one thing and one thing alone. A more colorful uniform for Dredd and the other judges. Honestly, it'd probably have been more popular if they had.
I haven't watched the new Ghostbusters, and I'm not going to. But the Colin Farrell Total Recal is IMO vastly superior to Ahnold's, and Dredd is way better than Stalone's.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
No, just made by the guy who has now written canon. Do you seriously believe that your interpretation to strictly onscreen canon, trumps the opinion of the guy who wrote the last movie?? The Technical Manual and Encyclopedia aren't canon either, but they were used by the writers when writing what became canon: If the writers and producers respect them, you have to give them, and their statements, the same credibility
Correct. On-screen canon trumps anything else. If Pegg wants his timeline theory to be canon he can include it in the script of his next film, until then the timeline works like every other example.
You can't use the notion that Trek uniforms can be subject to change on a whim Because That's What They Do, while insisting their explanations of parallel timelines can't change for the same reason. If anything can be changed on a whim, that means that that applies to all things, not just the ones you want to remain concrete when you want to use it to illustrate a point
Non sequitur. Changing uniforms happens on-screen and not just mentioned by a writer off-screen, thus is canon. It's not complicated nor comparable. If the KT had a different origin to every other timeline as shown, evidenced, or spoken on-screen then it becomes part of the convoluted, self-contradictory canon of ST.
Until that happens it's relegated to other statements by writers that are also non-canon Like Braga stating Future Guy is a Romulan then Archer, or Roddenberry stating everybody on the Enterprise is the same rank. Non-canon and contradicted (like Peggs statement) by the show.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Correct. On-screen canon trumps anything else. If Pegg wants his timeline theory to be canon he can include it in the script of his next film, until then the timeline works like every other example.
I'm sorry, but if you believe that the writer's opinion is invalid, just because it hasn't been on-screen, then there's no point in continuing the conversation. Cheers
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Comments
No. Not at all. The 'Nero Event', or as it's properly known, the Kelvin Timeline, is not a reboot of any type and thus one involving Sarek would also not be a reboot of any kind.
Reboots are separate continuities not related to new ones. Examples include the late 2000s Hulk and Spider-Man films, they were later rebooted in the MCU, or the DCEU rebooting The Dark Knight trilogy. All Star Trek films ans shows exist within the same continuity and are therefore not reboots.
We've never seen the DSC era so you have absolutely no way of backing that up.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Um, if DSC takes place in 2255 as it states on Memory Alpha, that means the USS Enterprise (NCC-1701) has already been comissioned for 10 years, based on the launch date of 2245.
So there's that...
Things I want in STO:
1) More character customization options such as more clothing options, letting the toon complexion affect the entire body, not just the head. Also a true RGB color picker applied to all costume and appearance options, which would allow for true appearance customization and homogenous colors instead of "this same exact color looks vastly different on two different pieces."
2) Bridge customization, not bridge packs. Let us pick a general layout and adjust the color palette, console appearance, and chair types, as well as more ready room layout options.
3) Customizable ground weapons, i.e. The aesthetic look of phaser dual pistols but they shoot antiproton bolts. For obvious reasons this would only apply to standard ground weapons.
4) For the love of Q please revamp Plasma Ground Weapons. They look like demented Supersoakers right now.
5) True Vanity Impulse and Deflector effects similar to Vanity Shields.
6) A greater payout for hitting T6 Reputations. Currently it takes more time and resources to get from T5 to T6 than it does to get from nothing to T5. Make that grind really pay out at the end.
7) Mirrorverse Refugee event similar to AoY/Delta/Gamma, complete with new Mirrorverse recruits for all factions.
8) Independent Faction, because yo ho yo ho a pirate's life for me!
DSC (I still like ST:D as an acronym, but I have an odd sense of humor) has been stated, repeatedly, to be Prime Timeline. There have been rumors of crosstime interference, but those are rumors only. And these uniforms look to me like some sort of transitional state between the ENT jumpsuits and the TOS velour turtlenecks, so there you go. You don't like them, feel free to dislike them - Great Bird knows I didn't care for the space pajamas in the first two seasons of TNG - but if that's your sticking point for enjoying the series, I feel I must call into question whether you ever "got" Star Trek in the first place.
Now, I can hear you now, "But it's Star Trek, they can use it if they want!" Well, back in the days of Mechwarrior (in that bygone era of 1989), FASA released a techbook featuring art from Japanese fans for a number of designs. And hey had the rights for that particular use of said art. But then FASA went and made miniatures of said designs, which they didn't have the rights to do. They got sued. It was ugly. Those designs were rereleased years later with different art and miniatures under the moniker 'reseen'. You can't just up and use something just because of a perceived right of usage. You have to make sure you have the right to use it before you do anything.
The point I was making is that numerous creative influences have come and gone since then. The results of the prescreening indicate additional changes to the show.
At no point have I made any value judgement on Discovery or the uniforms. I was pointing out the fact that the show is most likely changed from the original premise. Multiple sources (MULTIPLE SOURCES, not from tabloids) have stated that Sarek is going to change the Prime Timeline "in a major way, just like Nero". CBS has also given writers the "freedom" of making humans act like jerks to increase the drama. The end result will be new Star Trek stories that "meet the expectations of modern viewers" - Entertainment Weekly. If YOU feel this is good or bad, that is your opinion. I have none.
I have not seen Discovery. Discovery was supposed to be 12 episodes, but they increased it to 15. Even with all the changes to the show, SOMEONE at CBS feels confident enough in Discovery to create 3 more episodes. That does not suggest the show is "in trouble". CBS is sending the cast of Discovery to the San Diego Comic-Con later this month. Hopefully, we'll get some indication of the current direction of Discovery from that event.
...and probably missing out on the KT admiral uniform again
I've seen nothing that says Sarek changes the prime timeline. What are the sources you saw?
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And? We know DSC takes place around 2255 but the DSC era obviously extend backwards. Otherwise it's like saying ENT is set in 2161 because that's where it was last set.
We also know that Starfleet phases uniforms in. The Antares crew were wearing Cage uniforms in TOS, Extras were wearing the first TNG uniform in later series, DS9 and later TNG uniforms coexisted, VGR was wearing a different uniform to DS9 at the same time, later VGR was still wearing a older uniform whilst DS9 and TNG had switched to the FC uniforms.
DSC era uniforms still being worn by 2255 is not an issue to anybody who's ever seen the show.
A statement that is not canon, and contradicted by the explanation given in 09 and by every other example of parallel timelines ever used in ST.
TWoK is in the 2280s.
All reporting from the same original rumour. So gibberish in other words.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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No, just made by the guy who has now written canon. Do you seriously believe that your interpretation to strictly onscreen canon, trumps the opinion of the guy who wrote the last movie?? The Technical Manual and Encyclopedia aren't canon either, but they were used by the writers when writing what became canon: If the writers and producers respect them, you have to give them, and their statements, the same credibility
Technically, superceded by the later statement by Pegg
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
In short...
We don't know.
Honestly the best solution to all this is just to wait and see what happens rather than getting all cranky, rowdy, and frankly butthurt over some detail BEFORE THE DANG SHOW EVEN AIRS!
[/soapbox]
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"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
So here's an Idea for CBS. Why not create a whole new game called Star Trek: Corporate Cash Register, and put all the Kelvin & Discovery BS in there? Or alternitavely, try sticking to the storyline and actually release a ST series that people will actually follow with the timeline?
Which begs the question...
What makes Star Trek Star Trek?
Is it limited to ONLY what "Saint Roddenberry" envisioned? Or is it more that that? What makes DS9 more Star Trek than Voyager? What makes TOS more Star Trek than Enterprise?
Star Trek is a universe, with concepts, technology, and species established in previous shows. Warp Drive as we know it, Klingons, Starfleet... that all exists in the universe of Star Trek. We have a wide range of lore that built up this universe. But it is certainly NOT limited to the narrow view of one ship anymore. It no longer is bound to just the views of Kirk and his crew. Its much bigger than that.
Many criticize Archer in Enterprise for making mistakes that future captains wouldn't have made. Well guess what... Even Kirk had a book to go off of. Archer was literally WRITING that book. How Archer got command of Enterprise was actually covered in the show. Many captains competed for command of the NX-01. It was a plum assignment and Archer won. His friend, who he competed against and even helped him to prove the concept of the Warp 5 Engine in the testbed ship (which they even had to steal to actually prove it worked because of the Vulcans), would have been Captain of the Columbia if he hadn't been killed.
Some criticize Janeway for some of her actions too. But people fail to realize that Voyager was alone in the Delta Quadrant, so sometimes to survive you have to bend the rules. The short lived alliance with the Borg was one of necessity. The Undine had shown NO interest in negotiating with Voyager and were on the warpath. They didn't CARE that Voyager was different. Janeway went into that alliance knowing that the second they were no longer of use the Borg would turn on them and made plans for it.
While Star Trek Voyager had its problems, stemming from too many writers wanting to do their own things, it is no less Star Trek than TOS was back in the day. Hell... Deep Space Nine wasn't even based on a ship, and had full on WAR! If we're measuring the worth of a Star Trek show based on factors tracing back to TOS... then DS9 is by far the LEAST Star Trek of all Star Trek. Yet people cite DS9 as one of the better shows.
So again... begs the question...
What makes Star Trek Star Trek?
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That is simple to answer. Sticking to the damn story and timeline. For me, TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT all had their own flair, and yet slid into Roddenbery's universe nicely. In recent years there has been a carpet-bombing of remakes, and in my eyes, all of them have fallen on their faces. Robocop, Total Recall, Judge Dredd, and that god awful river of TRIBBLE-gravy called Ghostbusters? All the "creators" & wriers have all had the same thought. "Lets cash in on a successful franchaise, but we do our own thing..."
Not only is it getting boring, but it's disgusting that these movie/show makers are just using successful franchaises as cheap and very obvious cash-ins.
Also, it wont be done with clever modelling & set design, it will all be CGI'd to buggery & back.
The rumor, is that the suits stole J. Michael Straczynski's concept for Babylon 5, transposed it into the TNG universe, and boom. DS 9 arguably was the 'least Trek' in terms of 'boldly going', but it was still strongly written, well acted, well produced. It gained popularity on the strengths of its own merits as a show. I was never someone who doubted it, I was always excited when I first learned of its release, and I loved it. So yes, it gets cited as one of the better shows, because it was one of the better shows
To ask 'what makes Star Trek Star Trek', I feel is to miss the point and begging the question.
The questions which are the most honest to ask about Discovery, are:
How does this align with what we have previously see?
Is it remaining true to the ethos of the original source material and concepts?
Is the name being used as a cash-grab?
Like I said, Marc Zicree's Star Command looks pretty good for a crowdfunded project, imagine what it could be like with CBS/Netflix footing the bill? Oh, but no one recognizes the name, so won't be lured into buying the streaming service? Well that's no good!
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
But there's the thing. Do we KNOW, without a doubt, what happened in that time period other than what was shown in one pilot episode of TOS, which was from the POV of only the USS Enterprise?
They could have put the new show between Generations (Ent-B launch) and TNG, and people would still rant and rave about how things "should" be.
The problem is some people have their own measuring stick to determine what is Trek and what isn't, and they are beating everyone over the head with it trying to get others to accept THEIR interpretation of what Trek is. My mom knows someone who lives by the mantra "If Roddenberry was not involved, its not Star Trek", thus totally ignoring EVERYTHING after TNG season 2.
Basically we ALL have our own views on what Trek means to us. Some people just seem to get so defensive of others views that they try and beat them down with their "True fan" stick and claiming things must be a certain way, look a certain way, ect.
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if some of those "True Fans" would be insulted if a show set around the time period of TOS wasn't filmed on a 1960s camera.
These arguments about what is, what should be, and what MUST be... are honestly petty and only good for starting fights. It is also contrary to one of the main things IN Star Trek, the Vulcan Philosophy of IDIC. Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.
From a business standpoint, an episode or two with 1960s style sets is good for a tribute. But for a full modern day show the tech would look WOEFULLY dated as our modern day desktop computers make them look like toasters and would only serve as a draw for ONLY fans of TOS. To draw in new viewers, you'd need something shiny, Not unmarked jellybean buttons on a cardboard console.
Star Trek is what WE, the Fans, make of it. No one person is right. No one person has the right to shove their views on it down others throats and say "you're not a true fan unless you believe x".
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The Dredd movie with Karl Urban was actually quite good.....it nailed the background material perfectly, far better than the Stallone film. Problem is, the Dredd series isn't all that well known here in the US, and they didn't market it well to compensate. But you're right about the others....they sucked horribly.
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In the decades that strip has been running, Dredd's whole face has never been depicted. According to the writers, that wasn't intentional at first, but eventually it became a rule. Stallone's ego wouldn't allow that though so he took his helmet off. Just another way the Urban film is truer to the source material.
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and by thus you have missed out the best out of these 3
IMO it needed one thing and one thing alone. A more colorful uniform for Dredd and the other judges. Honestly, it'd probably have been more popular if they had.
My character Tsin'xing
Whether Perfect World feels it's economically viable to negotiate for those rights is out of our hands. But if you feel you can petition their hand, feel free. Who knows, it just might work.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Except they don't, so it dosn't matter.
Correct. On-screen canon trumps anything else. If Pegg wants his timeline theory to be canon he can include it in the script of his next film, until then the timeline works like every other example.
It still dosn't.
Non sequitur. Changing uniforms happens on-screen and not just mentioned by a writer off-screen, thus is canon. It's not complicated nor comparable. If the KT had a different origin to every other timeline as shown, evidenced, or spoken on-screen then it becomes part of the convoluted, self-contradictory canon of ST.
Until that happens it's relegated to other statements by writers that are also non-canon Like Braga stating Future Guy is a Romulan then Archer, or Roddenberry stating everybody on the Enterprise is the same rank. Non-canon and contradicted (like Peggs statement) by the show.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth