Correct. On-screen canon trumps anything else. If Pegg wants his timeline theory to be canon he can include it in the script of his next film, until then the timeline works like every other example.
I'm sorry, but if you believe that the writer's opinion is invalid, just because it hasn't been on-screen, then there's no point in continuing the conversation. Cheers
True. If your version of canon is more important to you than CBS' then it is indeed pointless as the whole point of canon is to provide a system for what can be said to 'have happened' and what hasn't.
Obviously a conversation where people pull in things that CBS' policy say 'haven't happened' and present it as if it carries the same weight as things their policy says 'have happened' then the whole exercise is rendered meaningless.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Correct. On-screen canon trumps anything else. If Pegg wants his timeline theory to be canon he can include it in the script of his next film, until then the timeline works like every other example.
I'm sorry, but if you believe that the writer's opinion is invalid, just because it hasn't been on-screen, then there's no point in continuing the conversation. Cheers
True. If your version of canon is more important to you than CBS' then it is indeed pointless as the whole point of canon is to provide a system for what can be said to 'have happened' and what hasn't.
Obviously a conversation where people pull in things that CBS' policy say 'haven't happened' and present it as if it carries the same weight as things their policy says 'have happened' then the whole exercise is rendered meaningless.
My view is that canon is canon, but that the toughts and opinions of the writers and producers, also have weight and merit which can't simply be dismissed or ignored. To mis-quote Spock, "Canon is only the beginning of authority, not the end of it."
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Correct. On-screen canon trumps anything else. If Pegg wants his timeline theory to be canon he can include it in the script of his next film, until then the timeline works like every other example.
I'm sorry, but if you believe that the writer's opinion is invalid, just because it hasn't been on-screen, then there's no point in continuing the conversation. Cheers
True. If your version of canon is more important to you than CBS' then it is indeed pointless as the whole point of canon is to provide a system for what can be said to 'have happened' and what hasn't.
Obviously a conversation where people pull in things that CBS' policy say 'haven't happened' and present it as if it carries the same weight as things their policy says 'have happened' then the whole exercise is rendered meaningless.
Uh, last I checked.... there was no published canon policy, so.... what are you basing your statements on? So... Pics or it didn't happen.
Yes, I know what the policy used to be, however, that policy seems to have been redacted.
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,669Community Moderator
HARD Canon is what is seen on screen, ie TV, Movies, and any other media the owners declare as such. And I can name 2 video games that are to be considered Canon to their respective franchises.
Star Trek takes place between the 09 movie and Into Darkness. The game also references an event that McCoy references on screen in Into Darkness, caring for a pregnant Gorn.
While Colonial Marines may not have been the best game, it DID retcon one thing no one liked from Alien3, the death of Cpl. Hicks.
So honestly OUR personal views on what is Canon and what isn't... is overruled by what the OWNERS say.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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Oi. We're having a canon debate? These never end well.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,669Community Moderator
Yeeeeeaaaaa... Although seeing the Enterprise at DS9 was interesting. I kinda liked seeing the Enterprise with Jane Kirk. And seeing Jim's reaction to her was priceless. Feel like they COULD have expanded on that story a bit more than they did.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
HARD Canon is what is seen on screen, ie TV, Movies, and any other media the owners declare as such.
Not when the owners themselves have stopped declaring that and by their every action show they've never really cared about canon in the first place.
It's the tendency to put simplistic dogma ahead of the behavior of the observable universe that makes people compare Trek purists unfavorably to religious zealots. But who wants to actually think about what CBS actually does when you can cling desperately to an outdated one sentence rule? Which is really tragic considering the ideals of the series those purists hold so dear. As if overworked screenwriters with limited fx budgets should trump every other thoughtful and well produced Trek story ever scribed because the bulk of Star Trek fans love the setting so much they can't be bothered to READ about it and insist its 'ooo, pretty pictures or nuthin'...
Oi! No personal attacks. You want to argue points, disagree, debate, that's fine. Name calling and attacks against others do nothing to enhance your arguments.
Not entirely sure how a canon debate fits in with the thread's stated topic to begin with though.
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Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
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We're Trekkies. A lunch order can become an argument over canon, under the right circumstances.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,669Community Moderator
Everyone's got their own interpretation of Canon. Mine happens to be the average of "seen on screen". I don't take something someone said off screen as canon. I just don't understand why some people insist on beating others over the head with their own views as if they are from "Saint Roddenberry" himself and that it is law.
Back to the uniforms... I'm a costume fiend. ANY new outfit made available to us is a good thing. I'm sure we'd have some interesting uses of the Discovery uniform in STO. We already have quite a few good Canon uniforms and some creative use of various parts.
Hell... I recently perfected my main's Lucina cosplay outfit.
Like or hate, the uniform would be a good addition to the vast customization options we have in STO. The only problem I see coming up is that we can't really have a rank set for it as that's tied to a pip system ON the badge... which would be even HARDER to see than normal in game collar pips.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
You can stamp your foot and pretend Star Trek was conceived and executed as a consistent setting over a platform for telling stories all you like, but the product -- every product -- says otherwise.
They ret-con themselves all the time, in every medium. Its is observable truth they do not fret over this the way fans do. The look of DSC is just another inescapable example of that hard fact.
The idea that CBS or Paramount have stopped declaring canon is objectively wrong, and everyone who spouts it is doing nothing but trying to perpetuate and idiotic, and easily disprovable, lie.
Really? Show. Us. This. Declaration.
Come on, link. I'd love to see it. Disprove "the lie". I'll wait.
If DSC is supposed to be 10 years before Kirk/Spock, one can only assume it's before TOS "The Cage" as well. At least between the two original pilots the uniforms fit. I get the feeling this show is between "The Cage" and "Where No Man Has Gone Before" therefore making the uniforms look, out of place. If it came before "The Cage" than I could see it being a Federation transition between the Enterprise series uniforms and this being the first Starfleet uniform.
Overall, I am not a fan of the uniform but I see Enterprise series influence in it. As for the show itself, well, I feel this won't sell CBS access and that it should be on a normal TV Time slot because it will pull ratings. This long without Trek on TV and I think its time it comes on normal TV>
Defending The Galaxy By Breaking One Starfleet Regulation After The Next.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,669Community Moderator
If it came before "The Cage" than I could see it being a Federation transition between the Enterprise series uniforms and this being the first Starfleet uniform.
Except it wouldn't be the first Starfleet uniform. That still belongs to the Enterprise era. And the uniforms on the USS Kelvin existed before Nero's incursion, so the Kelvin's uniforms would be both Prime and Kelvin Timelines.
The Federation was founded in 2161, Starfleet existed as far back as the 2150s at least. I can see the Discovery uniforms being a potential evolution from the Prime version of the Kelvin uniforms, being at most 10-15 years after 2233 or so.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
If it came before "The Cage" than I could see it being a Federation transition between the Enterprise series uniforms and this being the first Starfleet uniform.
Except it wouldn't be the first Starfleet uniform. That still belongs to the Enterprise era. And the uniforms on the USS Kelvin existed before Nero's incursion, so the Kelvin's uniforms would be both Prime and Kelvin Timelines.
The Federation was founded in 2161, Starfleet existed as far back as the 2150s at least. I can see the Discovery uniforms being a potential evolution from the Prime version of the Kelvin uniforms, being at most 10-15 years after 2233 or so.
If it came before "The Cage" than I could see it being a Federation transition between the Enterprise series uniforms and this being the first Starfleet uniform.
Except it wouldn't be the first Starfleet uniform. That still belongs to the Enterprise era. And the uniforms on the USS Kelvin existed before Nero's incursion, so the Kelvin's uniforms would be both Prime and Kelvin Timelines.
The Federation was founded in 2161, Starfleet existed as far back as the 2150s at least. I can see the Discovery uniforms being a potential evolution from the Prime version of the Kelvin uniforms, being at most 10-15 years after 2233 or so.
Ah Good point. I think I can agree nd see that too.
Defending The Galaxy By Breaking One Starfleet Regulation After The Next.
I'm sorry, but if you believe that the writer's opinion is invalid, just because it hasn't been on-screen, then there's no point in continuing the conversation.
It's not that their opinion is invalid, it is that their opinion doesn't mean anything unless they've put it on screen as part of the finished product.
So for all intents and purposes for the point of discussion and acknowledgement, invalid...
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
So for all intents and purposes for the point of discussion and acknowledgement, invalid...
I guess if you want to be an extremist.
Just off the top of my head... the writers of Firefly had said that in a later season it would be revealed Inara Serra was dying. It's not invalid for them to say that because that was their intent. However, it was never mentioned on screen, so it isn't canon and has no bearing on what happens in the show.
Pegg may have intended for other implications to the timeline, but that doesn't make it canon unless he put it on screen.
Question: where is the definition of canon written? Hmm? also who created that definition?
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Question: where is the definition of canon written? Hmm? also who created that definition?
I believe you already know the answers to those questions. However, if you would like something more concrete, look here.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Canon
In other words there is no primary source you can point to as a reference, so you have to point to secondary sources that are unofficial.
So for all intents and purposes for the point of discussion and acknowledgement, invalid...
[I guess if you want to be an extremist.
Just off the top of my head... the writers of Firefly had said that in a later season it would be revealed Inara Serra was dying. It's not invalid for them to say that because that was their intent. However, it was never mentioned on screen, so it isn't canon and has no bearing on what happens in the show.
Pegg may have intended for other implications to the timeline, but that doesn't make it canon unless he put it on screen.
Well that's certainly the position being posited: That if it's not on screen, then it's not canon, so it doesn't matter, ergo, it becomes an invalid point of reference. I agree, it's certainly an extremely extremist view to take. I think such a notion is blinkered and closed-minded, as it refuses to acknowledge other potential information on a topic 'just' because it's not been on screen. I consider it an extremely childish attitude to take, insomuch as what is refered to developmentaly as the Concrete Operational Stage, where a child has not yet developed the abstract thinking capabilities to consider opinions other than their own. (and In this context 'consider' is used as meaning 'engage with and critically evaluate', rather than sinple agreement or disagreement. A kind of 'whatever-is-not-mandated-is-forbidden' closed-minded/dismissiveness)
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
In other words there is no primary source you can point to as a reference, so you have to point to secondary sources that are unofficial.
Did you not read the page?
In 2007, CBS Consumer Products' Senior Director of Product Development Paula Block was asked about the topic of Star Trek canon for IDW Publishing's "Focus on... Star Trek" issue:
'Canon' in the sense that I use it is a very important tool. It only gets muddled when people try to incorporate licensed products into 'canon' – and I know a lot of the fans really like to do that. Sorry, guys – not trying to rain on your parade. There's a lot of bickering about it among fans, but in its purest sense, it's really pretty simple: Canon is Star Trek continuity as presented on TV and Movie screens. Licensed products like books and comics aren't part of that continuity, so they aren’t canon. And that's that. Part of my job in licensing is to keep track of TV and Movie continuity, so I can help direct licensees in their creation of licensed products. It gets a little tricky because it's constantly evolving, and over the years, Star Trek's various producers and scriptwriters haven't always kept track of/remembered/cared about what's come before.
As that's a direct statement coming from CBS (the IP owner), that's official enough for me. Fee free to disagree with it if you like.
As a rule of thumb, the events that take place within the live-action episodes and movies are canon, or official Star Trek facts. Story lines, characters, events, stardates, etc. that take place within the fictional novels, video games, the Animated Series, and the various comic lines have traditionally not been considered part of the canon. But canon is not something set in stone; even events in some of the movies have been called into question as to whether they should be considered canon! Ultimately, the fans, the writers and the producers may all differ on what is considered canon and the very idea of what is canon has become more fluid, especially as there isn't a single voice or arbiter to decide. Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry was accustomed to making statements about canon, but even he was known to change his mind.
In the publishing world, there used to be two exceptions to the novel rule: the Jeri Taylor-penned books 'Mosaic' and 'Pathways.' Many of the events in these two novels feature background details of the main Star Trek: Voyager characters and were to be considered as references by writers on the show. Now that the show is over, some of those events may never be incorporated into a live action format, so the question of whether details from these novels remain canon is open to interpretation.
With regard to the Animated Series, there are a few details from the episode 'Yesteryear,' written by D.C. Fontana, that reveal biographical background on Spock and planet Vulcan. Details from this episode have been successfully incorporated into the canon of Star Trek (such as in 'The Forge') and now that the Animated Series is out on DVD, we hope that even more can make its way in!
Which has apparently been rescinded since the current website lists TAS as canon. Last I checked there isn't any currently published definition.
Well that's certainly the position being posited: That if it's not on screen, then it's not canon, so it doesn't matter, ergo, it becomes an invalid point of reference. I agree, it's certainly an extremely extremist view to take. I think such a notion is blinkered and closed-minded, as it refuses to acknowledge other potential information on a topic 'just' because it's not been on screen. I consider it an extremely childish attitude to take, insomuch as what is refered to developmentaly as the Concrete Operational Stage, where a child has not yet developed the abstract thinking capabilities to consider opinions other than their own. (and In this context 'consider' is used as meaning 'engage with and critically evaluate', rather than sinple agreement or disagreement. A kind of 'whatever-is-not-mandated-is-forbidden' closed-minded/dismissiveness)
I wouldn't say it doesn't acknowledge other information.
And I never said that you did. I'm discussing the thinking of those who refuse to acknowledge anything other than canon as a valid point worthy of acknowledgement in a discussion just because it isn't canon.
Writers/directors/actors thoughts on events with the story or character can elaborate much more that we see on screen. There is a clear distinction in use though. It's one thing to use this as a tool as mentioned above and an entirely different thing to claim it as part of the canon despite it never making it onto the screen.
And no one has tried to claim that Simon Pegg's thoughts are canon. It has been pinted out that as the writer of Beyond, his thoughts on the topic immeasuably outweigh what some canon accolyte can nebbishly point to, under the delusion that their opinion (because it's based on canon) outweighs his.
The rational biblical scholar, for example, would not argue with God's thoughts about how/why He created the universe, just because in the bible, He saw that it was good. The extremist scholar, on the other hand, would just say 'it's not in the bible, so it doesn't count', regardless of the Source
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Comments
True. If your version of canon is more important to you than CBS' then it is indeed pointless as the whole point of canon is to provide a system for what can be said to 'have happened' and what hasn't.
Obviously a conversation where people pull in things that CBS' policy say 'haven't happened' and present it as if it carries the same weight as things their policy says 'have happened' then the whole exercise is rendered meaningless.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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My view is that canon is canon, but that the toughts and opinions of the writers and producers, also have weight and merit which can't simply be dismissed or ignored. To mis-quote Spock, "Canon is only the beginning of authority, not the end of it."
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Yes, I know what the policy used to be, however, that policy seems to have been redacted.
My character Tsin'xing
So honestly OUR personal views on what is Canon and what isn't... is overruled by what the OWNERS say.
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Not when the owners themselves have stopped declaring that and by their every action show they've never really cared about canon in the first place.
It's the tendency to put simplistic dogma ahead of the behavior of the observable universe that makes people compare Trek purists unfavorably to religious zealots. But who wants to actually think about what CBS actually does when you can cling desperately to an outdated one sentence rule? Which is really tragic considering the ideals of the series those purists hold so dear. As if overworked screenwriters with limited fx budgets should trump every other thoughtful and well produced Trek story ever scribed because the bulk of Star Trek fans love the setting so much they can't be bothered to READ about it and insist its 'ooo, pretty pictures or nuthin'...
Not entirely sure how a canon debate fits in with the thread's stated topic to begin with though.
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Back to the uniforms... I'm a costume fiend. ANY new outfit made available to us is a good thing. I'm sure we'd have some interesting uses of the Discovery uniform in STO. We already have quite a few good Canon uniforms and some creative use of various parts.
Hell... I recently perfected my main's Lucina cosplay outfit.
Like or hate, the uniform would be a good addition to the vast customization options we have in STO. The only problem I see coming up is that we can't really have a rank set for it as that's tied to a pip system ON the badge... which would be even HARDER to see than normal in game collar pips.
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colored text = mod mode
You can stamp your foot and pretend Star Trek was conceived and executed as a consistent setting over a platform for telling stories all you like, but the product -- every product -- says otherwise.
They ret-con themselves all the time, in every medium. Its is observable truth they do not fret over this the way fans do. The look of DSC is just another inescapable example of that hard fact.
Really? Show. Us. This. Declaration.
Come on, link. I'd love to see it. Disprove "the lie". I'll wait.
Overall, I am not a fan of the uniform but I see Enterprise series influence in it. As for the show itself, well, I feel this won't sell CBS access and that it should be on a normal TV Time slot because it will pull ratings. This long without Trek on TV and I think its time it comes on normal TV>
Defending The Galaxy By Breaking One Starfleet Regulation After The Next.
Except it wouldn't be the first Starfleet uniform. That still belongs to the Enterprise era. And the uniforms on the USS Kelvin existed before Nero's incursion, so the Kelvin's uniforms would be both Prime and Kelvin Timelines.
The Federation was founded in 2161, Starfleet existed as far back as the 2150s at least. I can see the Discovery uniforms being a potential evolution from the Prime version of the Kelvin uniforms, being at most 10-15 years after 2233 or so.
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Ah Good point. I think I can agree nd see that too.
Defending The Galaxy By Breaking One Starfleet Regulation After The Next.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
My character Tsin'xing
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My character Tsin'xing
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
My character Tsin'xing
And no one has tried to claim that Simon Pegg's thoughts are canon. It has been pinted out that as the writer of Beyond, his thoughts on the topic immeasuably outweigh what some canon accolyte can nebbishly point to, under the delusion that their opinion (because it's based on canon) outweighs his.
The rational biblical scholar, for example, would not argue with God's thoughts about how/why He created the universe, just because in the bible, He saw that it was good. The extremist scholar, on the other hand, would just say 'it's not in the bible, so it doesn't count', regardless of the Source
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth