rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,523Community Moderator
Was the TMP uniform practical? Was the season 1 TNG practical?
Honestly in my opinion the most practical uniforms were the Enterprise and what I call the First Contact uniforms. Later TNG and DS9/Voyager uniforms were more practical than the TMP and TNG s1 uniforms. And honestly the TOS uniforms were just shirts.
Ok.... then if that's true then why can't the same be true of other things?
The same is true for other things as well. However, that doesn't mean "everything is canon" either. With STO, if I write Foundry mission that says it was 32nd century telepathic Tribbles that started the Iconian ware, it doesn't make it "canon" to STO. At least to me, what the Devs put out as their official product is STO canon.
Regardless of medium, you still have to have some starting point to determine what is and isn't true.
Anyways.... I think the real question here still hasn't been asked or answered: Would the TOS production crew have used those uniforms if they'd had the option?
I'm willing to say yes. The TOS uniforms were basically rule of cool tempered with what was affordable in their budget
Regardless of medium, you still have to have some starting point to determine what is and isn't true.
if you have a starting point, then logically there must be an ending point.
The ending point is what CBS decides and/or wants. The 2009 policy editorial still says on screen only but can change in future. The End. Don't pass go. Being silent on it does not equal a retraction of policy. Sorta like saying hey we haven't admended the Constitution in awhile so its basic principles and policies are no longer valid. I believe even the devs have stated canon is on screen only. And they work with CBS reguarly. As for the unis well we well get them when CBS says ok.
yeah, you SAY "start from" but... it seems to me that you have no intention of moving past the starting point.
Why? Because I prefer to treat canon as something that is established on screen and not any idea that pops into someones head?
As Spock said, "Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end." The flaw in your argument is the idea that there is only one canon.
There is only one canon. And its listed in the Star Trek database under "The Star Trek Canon."
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Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
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yeah, you SAY "start from" but... it seems to me that you have no intention of moving past the starting point.
Why? Because I prefer to treat canon as something that is established on screen and not any idea that pops into someones head?
As Spock said, "Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end." The flaw in your argument is the idea that there is only one canon.
There is only one canon. And its listed in the Star Trek database under "The Star Trek Canon."
Database
The Offical Star Trek Canon.
Navigator
Series Synopses:
As a counter point, the database is incomplete, and thus it's not certain if that list is complete either. Obviously everything on that list is considered canon, but it's not specified if that is the only things.
Thank you for taking the time to post those links as they are informative. However, at least to me, they are not necessary as I've said many times I can understand exactly where you are coming from. I'll say it again - as it always seems to get drowned out in the noise of disagreement - I rather like the design aesthetic of Axanar and would have liked to have seen something like that for Discovery myself as it does more closely resemble what has come before in canon.
With that said, I can accept that CBS wants to go in a different aesthetic direction and can completely understand why they are choosing to modernize it. The look and feel simply doesn't bother me that much as Star Trek has changed the way it looks over the years.
One man's dated design is another mans' iconic, timeless classic. We'll probably never see eye to eye as I am nowhere near as fanatical about the look and feel as you, but I can respect where you are coming from.
My only suggestion is to give it a try and see if you like it. If you don't then don't watch it. However, you may be pleasantly surprised.
I was very, very vocal in thinking Gal Gadot was a terrible choice for Wonder Woman. Now that I've actually seen her in the role, I happily eat my words on the subject. Perhaps you can find it within yourself to do the same with Discovery.
I appreciate the acknowledgement. One thing that concerns me, though, is that you still seem to think I advocate for nothing to change from the classic material or some vision I have of "the one true Trek" when that was never my point. It's not my issue that they chose a different aesthetic, it's that they did so in direct contradiction of on-screen canon with no explanation. They chose to make it a prequel set in a time period we have screen footage of while doing nothing to replicate the established look of that time period. Such a blatant inconsistency rises to the level of plot hole and that is what concerns me. It demonstrates a blatant lack of care for even the most basic rules of good writing, and to do so is to disrespect both the fans and the franchise.
[bIf there is an explanation, so be it. I believe we're owed that explanation if it exists. If it's a good explanation that makes sense, I will retract all objection and give my support. What I do NOT accept is to be told one thing (it's Prime Universe 2250s) and be shown something else entirely. Without an explanation, I have no choice but to interpret it as a dishonest bait-and-switch.[/b]
Here's hoping though that once we learn more it will all turn out to make sense, and I and others will have been worried over nothing. Considering the history of the producers involved, however, I don't feel that heavy skepticism is even remotely unreasonable or unjustified.
This...
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
CBS and Paramount have at best an uneasy if not actively adversarial relationship with the fanbase right now considering the level of draconian collective punishment of fan works in the wake of the Axenar issue (PROTIP: ask Lars Ulrich how suing your fans affects your public relations profile), and there is reason for the old school fans to feel hostility from the companies involved.
Enh, Axanar deserved to get buried 6 feet under the courthouse for the TRIBBLE they pulled. More so because they forced CBS/Paramount to enact the fan film guidelines. They literally asked for it in court...
Enh, Axanar deserved to get buried 6 feet under the courthouse for the **** they pulled. More so because they forced CBS/Paramount to enact the fan film guidelines. They literally asked for it in court...
Axanar deserved every book thrown at them for the shtako they pulled.
CBS and Paramount have at best an uneasy if not actively adversarial relationship with the fanbase right now considering the level of draconian collective punishment of fan works in the wake of the Axenar issue (PROTIP: ask Lars Ulrich how suing your fans affects your public relations profile), and there is reason for the old school fans to feel hostility from the companies involved.
Enh, Axanar deserved to get buried 6 feet under the courthouse for the **** they pulled. More so because they forced CBS/Paramount to enact the fan film guidelines. They literally asked for it in court...
Legally speaking, absolutely, and Alec Peters is damned lucky he didn't get sued into the gutter. I'm still not 100% sure what to make of him personally: Politically speaking, we definitely have opposing views, but whenever I've Talked Trek with him, he's been enthusiastic, passionate and engaging. He clearly has deep love for his family and friends, and he clearly loves Star Trek. I certainly couldn't call him 'a bad guy', or at least certainly not an entirely bad guy. He certainly has love for his friends and family, even if his handling of the Axanar Project was a shady way to get himself a film studio, and the way he responds to critics can be pretty harsh. He can definitely be a TRIBBLE at times, but can't we all? I'll just say that he's not without some redeeming qualities.
But I separate my thoughts of Alec Peters, from my appreciation for the Axanar project.
And speaking purely As A Project, it was one which captured the feel of Star Trek, and recreated an immediately recognizable representation of the pre-TOS era. As projects go, it met the standard required
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
As A Project, it was a dismal failure. After all that buildup, and all that fundraising, the project failed to produce anything beyond a very nice trailer (The Four Years War) and a short Vulcan scene. There wasn't even a first draft of a script.
As A Project, it was a dismal failure. After all that buildup, and all that fundraising, the project failed to produce anything beyond a very nice trailer (The Four Years War) and a short Vulcan scene. There wasn't even a first draft of a script.
Well yes, it failed to produce anything, because CBS took Alec Peters to court
But what did it produce? You said if yourself: A very nice trailer. A trailer which:
-Recreated a specific era of the Prime Timeline with easy and immediate recognizability.
-Convinced a significant amount of people to donate funds towards the production of a movie.
I'd call that successful
Now the lack of a final script, is a by the by issue: Suicide Squad got re-written halfway through principal photography, and Axanar wasn't anywhere near that stage, so the lack of a final script, really not the issue it's framed as.
I am, very keen to see what does get released, now that the guidlines're in place, and where the Axanar Project goes from this point
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
The script for Suicide Squad was rewritten during filming, due to studio interference. However, even before they began casting, they had a script.
Star Wars went through innumerable scripts, starting from the saga of the Starkiller family; one tidbit revealed earlier today was that until shortly before filming, there was a scene at the ruins of Alderaan where Luke reveals to Han that he was scammed into taking them (in that version, Luke and Ben claimed to have the rest of the payment for the trip on them, but would withhold it until they arrived safely; Han demands payment because he contracted to take them to Alderaan, and it's not his fault it's not there any more. Luke has to shamefacedly confess they'd lied about the payment).
Scripts being rewritten is common. But in general, your movie proposal can hardly be called a success if it doesn't even have a first draft. And a trailer, no matter how pretty, is still a trailer. The movie project was, by any sane standard, a dismal failure.
yeah, you SAY "start from" but... it seems to me that you have no intention of moving past the starting point.
Why? Because I prefer to treat canon as something that is established on screen and not any idea that pops into someones head?
As Spock said, "Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end." The flaw in your argument is the idea that there is only one canon.
There is only one canon. And its listed in the Star Trek database under "The Star Trek Canon."
Database
The Offical Star Trek Canon.
Navigator
Series Synopses:
As a counter point, the database is incomplete, and thus it's not certain if that list is complete either. Obviously everything on that list is considered canon, but it's not specified if that is the only things.
It is specified. If you think something is missing then what is it? This is CBSs own list. Maybe you should tell them what they are leaving out.
The script for Suicide Squad was rewritten during filming, due to studio interference. However, even before they began casting, they had a script.
Star Wars went through innumerable scripts, starting from the saga of the Starkiller family; one tidbit revealed earlier today was that until shortly before filming, there was a scene at the ruins of Alderaan where Luke reveals to Han that he was scammed into taking them (in that version, Luke and Ben claimed to have the rest of the payment for the trip on them, but would withhold it until they arrived safely; Han demands payment because he contracted to take them to Alderaan, and it's not his fault it's not there any more. Luke has to shamefacedly confess they'd lied about the payment).
Scripts being rewritten is common. But in general, your movie proposal can hardly be called a success if it doesn't even have a first draft. And a trailer, no matter how pretty, is still a trailer. The movie project was, by any sane standard, a dismal failure.
Because CBS hit it with lawyers...
Crowdfunded films operate, and are financed, differently to Big Studio productions. To say that Axanar failed 'because it didn't have a final script', is laughable, and the comment of someone who doesn't understand film-making. Before a shooting script is transcribed, for an independant film-maker, there are numerous things which need to be arranged and settled, such as location, for example. A set was needed for the Ares' bridge, and that required a sound stage upon which to build it.
-What is the point in sitting down and writing a script, when there's no stage upon which to perform said script?
Even if Axanar didn't 'have a final script', there was still a treatment and concept, which a script would then be written to bring to life. The task of sitting down to get a story transcribed into a script, is way down the list of priorities, compared to other things which need to be arranged first. You confuse 'not having a script', with 'not having thought of a story to tell': Dunning-Kruger Effect.
Again, Axanar 'failed', because legal action stopped it in its tracks, because Alec Peters making profit off the Star Trek IP, which is legally indefensible.
A project stalling, and then having to re-structure due to legal action, is not the same as a project failing due to internal issues.
What was Prelude intended to do?
Draw interest and funding for a potential movie about the Federation/Klingon Four Years War.
It succeeded in doing exactly that.
So as an 'appetizer project', it did Not fail. That the potential movie has been unable to proceed as initially planned, due to legal interventions, is an entirely different matter, and as I said, I'm very keen to see what does get released instead.
And to once more state the point, the universe and era in which that piece was set, is unquestionable from the presentation.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I can't call Prelude a trailer. It wasn't even made by the same people that were working on the actual Axanar movie. Peters was involved, and maybe a few others, but several quit and specifically said it was because Peters wasn't trying to actually make the main movie. The #noaccountabiity thing got started by the people who decided to leave the project. How long did Peters have to work on the script? He was paying himself to be a scriptwriter after all. But after a year it wasn't even a rough draft, let alone a "final" one. So Peters hadn't taken it beyond the vague concept stage to where he figures out what the story will be.
Also, ponder this: how do you know what sets and props you will need if you haven't even figured out how many scenes there will be in the movie?
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,523Community Moderator
Ultimately, Peters is responsible for violating copyright law by profiting from something that did not belong to him. That much is pretty crystal clear.
Could Axanar have been good? Yes.
Did Peters frak up by trying to monetize? Oh hell yes.
I mean the guy not only took crowdfunding, and paid himself a salary, he tried to sell Axanar COFFEE. Complete with the Starfleet delta on the package.
Quality aside, Peters is ultimately at fault as he has violated copyright law by trying to make money off something he doesn't own. The fault for the failure of Axanar rests solely on Peters and his actions. He used the Star Trek IP to try and fund his new stage, which was NOT advertised in the crowdfunding campaign. He basically exploited the goodwill of fans for profit.
This particular topic has been done to death. We should probably get back to discussing the Discovery uniforms now.
CBS and Paramount have at best an uneasy if not actively adversarial relationship with the fanbase right now considering the level of draconian collective punishment of fan works in the wake of the Axenar issue (PROTIP: ask Lars Ulrich how suing your fans affects your public relations profile), and there is reason for the old school fans to feel hostility from the companies involved.
Enh, Axanar deserved to get buried 6 feet under the courthouse for the **** they pulled. More so because they forced CBS/Paramount to enact the fan film guidelines. They literally asked for it in court...
Please note that I called out the "draconian collective punishment of fan works", not the action against Axenar itself. I have mixed feelings about the Axenar case, I think inappropriate things were done on both sides and I would have preferred a more amicable compromise had taken place. That is a separate debate, however. My concern is the larger issue of the so-called "guidelines" for fan works and how gross and unnecessary an overreach they are.
The Axenar Project and the people involved are not one and the same as the fanbase in general, and neither is Axenar one and the same as all fan series and films. A nuanced approach, one that recognizes that different situations with different people involved require different solutions, is necessary. That means that, even if an aggressive zero-tolerance action was justified by the lines crossed by the one production group, there was no justification for the absolutely scorched earth approach the IP owners took against the entirety of the fanbase and any and all fan works now and in the future. Whatever the Axenar people did wrong, the producers of other fan series and films had nothing to do with it and didn't deserve to have the hammer dropped on them.
CBS's approach is a lot more nuanced than you seem to think. Yes, it's a prohibitively long list of restrictions. Some of them had a major impact on existing productions, and so on and so forth. However... they reserve the right to enforce the guidelines as strictly or loosely as they see fit.
Also, I was serious when I said Peters literally asked for it. CBS tried a more amicable solution, but Peters kept refusing to deal. He demanded CBS give him a set of guidelines on what they felt was appropriate for a fan-film, IN COURT!
Honestly his behavior only makes sense if he thought he could somehow force them to back down, which is why he kept trying to raise the stakes instead of folding.
I can't call Prelude a trailer. It wasn't even made by the same people that were working on the actual Axanar movie. Peters was involved, and maybe a few others, but several quit and specifically said it was because Peters wasn't trying to actually make the main movie. The #noaccountabiity thing got started by the people who decided to leave the project. How long did Peters have to work on the script? He was paying himself to be a scriptwriter after all. But after a year it wasn't even a rough draft, let alone a "final" one. So Peters hadn't taken it beyond the vague concept stage to where he figures out what the story will be.
Also, ponder this: how do you know what sets and props you will need if you haven't even figured out how many scenes there will be in the movie?
For sure, his behaviours were seriously shady, and can't be defended.
Like I said, transcribing a shooting script, is actually a very low priority in terms of the preparation stage, which needs many other things done first.
The amount of scenes which will be in the movie, is irrelevant to the overall story someone wishes to tell, and the tools they will need (such as props and sets) with which to tell it. There's no point in sitting down and transcribing a sci-fi script, with no means to have said script enacted.
Act I: Scene I: Int. Bridge of USS Whatever.
Captain Awesome stands on the flaming bridge with devestation all around!
That right there, needs a bridge set. And costume. And props. And lighting. And camera equipment. And sound equipment. And actors. And catering. And insurances.
There's no point whatsoever in writing the action and dialogue, without all those other things being in place first The concept allows the film-maker to know what they need to put in place, before they get round to the mundanity of transcribing the script itself. Like I said, don't confuse 'no script', with 'no story to tell'
I agree with the #noaccountability in principle, there was none, but I also weight that up, with the knowledge that an ex partner is not going to give a glowing testimonial of their former partner, or they would still be partners: That things broke down between parties is not the issue, but that those coming out of the relationship on bad terms, colors what they say. It has to be taken into account
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Ultimately, Peters is responsible for violating copyright law by profiting from something that did not belong to him. That much is pretty crystal clear.
Could Axanar have been good? Yes.
Did Peters frak up by trying to monetize? Oh hell yes.
I mean the guy not only took crowdfunding, and paid himself a salary, he tried to sell Axanar COFFEE. Complete with the Starfleet delta on the package.
Quality aside, Peters is ultimately at fault as he has violated copyright law by trying to make money off something he doesn't own. The fault for the failure of Axanar rests solely on Peters and his actions. He used the Star Trek IP to try and fund his new stage, which was NOT advertised in the crowdfunding campaign. He basically exploited the goodwill of fans for profit.
This particular topic has been done to death. We should probably get back to discussing the Discovery uniforms now.
Absolutely, the rights and wrongs (of which there are many, and all the fault of Alec Peters) has been done to death.
Funnily enough, those things, aren't the reason why I brought Axanar up. I brought it up, because of the use of costuming (and also sets and aesthetics) in creating an immediately identifiable Prime Timeline era, which the producers of Discovery have utterly failed to do. That the notion of Axanar being a failure, and all that comes with that was revived, you can thank jonsills, who seemed to feel the need to criticize and dismiss Axanar 'because reasons', rather than just getting the point, and saying "You're right, Silver, what they did, was recognizably Pre TOS-Trek..."
Having several friends in the industry, and actually spoken to the guy himself (albeit briefly) I was able to point out the errors in jon's laymans assertion that 'Axanar was a failure', simply because he was judging it by the wrong criteria
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
CBS and Paramount have at best an uneasy if not actively adversarial relationship with the fanbase right now considering the level of draconian collective punishment of fan works in the wake of the Axenar issue (PROTIP: ask Lars Ulrich how suing your fans affects your public relations profile), and there is reason for the old school fans to feel hostility from the companies involved.
Enh, Axanar deserved to get buried 6 feet under the courthouse for the **** they pulled. More so because they forced CBS/Paramount to enact the fan film guidelines. They literally asked for it in court...
Please note that I called out the "draconian collective punishment of fan works", not the action against Axenar itself. I have mixed feelings about the Axenar case, I think inappropriate things were done on both sides and I would have preferred a more amicable compromise had taken place. That is a separate debate, however. My concern is the larger issue of the so-called "guidelines" for fan works and how gross and unnecessary an overreach they are.
The Axenar Project and the people involved are not one and the same as the fanbase in general, and neither is Axenar one and the same as all fan series and films. A nuanced approach, one that recognizes that different situations with different people involved require different solutions, is necessary. That means that, even if an aggressive zero-tolerance action was justified by the lines crossed by the one production group, there was no justification for the absolutely scorched earth approach the IP owners took against the entirety of the fanbase and any and all fan works now and in the future. Whatever the Axenar people did wrong, the producers of other fan series and films had nothing to do with it and didn't deserve to have the hammer dropped on them.
CBS's approach is a lot more nuanced than you seem to think. Yes, it's a prohibitively long list of restrictions. Some of them had a major impact on existing productions, and so on and so forth. However... they reserve the right to enforce the guidelines as strictly or loosely as they see fit.
Also, I was serious when I said Peters literally asked for it. CBS tried a more amicable solution, but Peters kept refusing to deal. He demanded CBS give him a set of guidelines on what they felt was appropriate for a fan-film, IN COURT!
Honestly his behavior only makes sense if he thought he could somehow force them to back down, which is why he kept trying to raise the stakes instead of folding.
Yup, he well and truly shot himself in the foot on that one (and in the process ruined things for everyone else) But I'm sepersting my opinion of him as a person, from my appreciation for the project, and the recognizable Pre-TOS Prime Timeline aesthetic it was successful in creating
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Funnily enough, those things, aren't the reason why I brought Axanar up. I brought it up, because of the use of costuming (and also sets and aesthetics) in creating an immediately identifiable Prime Timeline era, which the producers of Discovery have utterly failed to do.
Except that's not true. If you're of a mind that screen-is-God, and canon is based on what appears on screen, CBS literally can do no wrong. Discovery DEFINES canon for the periods in which it exists. It may not resonate with previous presentations, but it still instantly and automatically overturns previous canon. Newer works replace older works by default. Unless Gorn are a highly morphologically diverse species, the TOS appearance has been trumped by the ENT appearance. The Cage is being overwritten and all of TOS's aesthetics called into question. Some folks may not approve, but it's pretty hard to question CBS's privilege to do so. And for audiences whose chief exposure to the property is through the recent movies (and with Trek off the air for over a decade that's a LOT of the market that matters to TV producers) Discovery is very much "immediately identifiable" as Star Trek.
To me, Discovery has made two huge missteps, and that's what I'm hoping to ask them about at the SDCC panel. Putting it on Netflix everywhere except the USA is NUTS. But equally freakish/foolish in my opinion was every claiming it was anything other than more of the Kelvin Timeline. Why would you bet against an immensely successful reboot? (aesthetically, even if it did a little song and dance to avoid invalidating all of old-timer Trek continuity) They clearly WANT to use an updated aesthetic for the tech and are taking far more cues from Enterprise than TOS when it comes to costuming. They could have saved themselves all this angst by flipping old timers the bird up front instead of trying to string them along with promises that it's set in the Prime Timeline in a way they'll hate even more...
Funnily enough, those things, aren't the reason why I brought Axanar up. I brought it up, because of the use of costuming (and also sets and aesthetics) in creating an immediately identifiable Prime Timeline era, which the producers of Discovery have utterly failed to do.
Except that's not true. If you're of a mind that screen-is-God, and canon is based on what appears on screen, CBS literally can do no wrong. Discovery DEFINES canon for the periods in which it exists. It may not resonate with previous presentations, but it still instantly and automatically overturns previous canon.
And in doing so, gives the finger to not only the fanbase, but the very franchise upon which it is riding the coat-tails of: Doubly so, by making that insistence '[in the Prime Timeline]10 years before Kirk and the Enterprise' as a lure to try and snag some viewers through nostalgia-baiting. Like I said before, if they wanted to do their own thing and go their own way, they should have done that, not gone down the nostalgia-hook bait-switch route, because it's put people's backs up. Again, Axanar showed what was immediately identifiable as Pre-TOS Prime Timeline, which is all needs to be said about Axanar, for the purpose of this discussion.
Newer works replace older works by default. Unless Gorn are a highly morphologically diverse species, the TOS appearance has been trumped by the ENT appearance. The Cage is being overwritten and all of TOS's aesthetics called into question. Some folks may not approve, but it's pretty hard to question CBS's privilege to do so.
Ability to do so, and if it is right to do so, is two different things. Doing so 'for the sake of it' is not reason to do so. Especially not, when using the hook '10 years before Kirk and the Enterprise'
And for audiences whose chief exposure to the property is through the recent movies (and with Trek off the air for over a decade that's a LOT of the market that matters to TV producers) Discovery is very much "immediately identifiable" as Star Trek.
Balderdash! Remove the delta logo(s) from the uniform, and it's utterly generic sci-fi. The design of the Shenzhou, I've actually seen posted on the Axanar fb page, identified as the USS Adelaide, and is a Star Trek Online-era design (I believe, from the art style, by John Eaves) Putting a VW Beetle in a production of The Crucifixtion of Jesus of Nazareth, for example, doesn't make it a donkey and cart
To me, Discovery has made two huge missteps, and that's what I'm hoping to ask them about at the SDCC panel. Putting it on Netflix everywhere except the USA is NUTS. But equally freakish/foolish in my opinion was every claiming it was anything other than more of the Kelvin Timeline. Why would you bet against an immensely successful reboot? (aesthetically, even if it did a little song and dance to avoid invalidating all of old-timer Trek continuity) They clearly WANT to use an updated aesthetic for the tech and are taking far more cues from Enterprise than TOS when it comes to costuming. They could have saved themselves all this angst by flipping old timers the bird up front instead of trying to string them along with promises that it's set in the Prime Timeline in a way they'll hate even more...
At a guess, because I (believe) Kelvin Timeline is Paramount's IP, not CBS's IP. Given how they had to team up to sue Alec Peters, I doubt CBs wanted to rub Paramount the wrong way, by asking to play with their toys
I suspect, that the putting it on Netflix, was the only way to get the funding They wanted a flagship show for CBS Streaming, but wanted/needed someone else to pick to the tab
They have (I believe) made a massive mistake, not so much in revamping the aesthetic, but by their bait and switch tactic of saying it's Prime Timeline 10 years before Kirk and the Enterprise, and then delivering something which could either be Kelvin Timeline, or even Prime Timeline post-Nemesis. That arrogance to presume upon the goodwill of the fanbase with such shenanigans, that is their big mistake, and I sincerely hope it turns round and bites them in the TRIBBLE Enjoy SDCC though, get some good autographs
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
...They have (I believe) made a massive mistake, not so much in revamping the aesthetic, but by their bait and switch tactic of saying it's Prime Timeline 10 years before Kirk and the Enterprise, and then delivering something which could either be Kelvin Timeline, or even Prime Timeline post-Nemesis. That arrogance to presume upon the goodwill of the fanbase with such shenanigans, that is their big mistake, and I sincerely hope it turns round and bites them in the ****
Not every Star Trek fan sees the difference in design as "shenanigans" or a "bait and switch" or some other act of ill intent.
Please do not address comments to me
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
We could argue canon till we're all blue in the face but Cryptic has shown on at least four different occasions that canon isn't a consideration when it comes to what they add to the game (Kelvin Lock Box anyone?). No, the hurdle has never been canon. It's the Star Trek license Perfect World has with CBS. I've said this twice now in this same thread and seems the major discussion isn't how the uniform (and the ships) can get in the game but rather how much the fans would react if they were. We have to get to a starting point, yes, but that starting point isn't how canonical it is but rather how much it'd cost to begin with.
I'm no expert on the subject but I'm not blind to what can happen if not approached correctly. A more on-point case in point would be the T6 TOS Constitution. Fans and players alike have been clamoring for it for a long time, but if I remember correctly it wasn't allowed till recently not because it couldn't be done but because CBS wasn't allowing it. Not sure what changed, but in order to just consider Star Trek Discovery content Perfect World would need to iron out some manner of license for it. If you really want a little Discovery in your STO, instead of arguing about canon you might want to petition Perfect World to get that ball rolling.
Lobes, you don't get to police the forums. If you want to do so, apply to become a moderator (it seems unlikely you would be approved, but you can certainly apply).
So long as you're just another user, though, anyone can post anything they want (within reason) in these threads. If you don't like it, you're free to take your conversation into messages with your buddies.
That being said, perhaps this thread is due for a shutdown, as it's become plain that no one is being persuaded of anything any more.
> @silverlobes#2676 said:
> valoreah wrote: »
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> silverlobes#2676 wrote: »
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> ...They have (I believe) made a massive mistake, not so much in revamping the aesthetic, but by their bait and switch tactic of saying it's Prime Timeline 10 years before Kirk and the Enterprise, and then delivering something which could either be Kelvin Timeline, or even Prime Timeline post-Nemesis. That arrogance to presume upon the goodwill of the fanbase with such shenanigans, that is their big mistake, and I sincerely hope it turns round and bites them in the ****
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> Not every Star Trek fan sees the difference in design as "shenanigans" or a "bait and switch" or some other act of ill intent.
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> Please do not address comments to me
He makes a completely valid point which many of us agree with.
I accept the point made, I reject the conversation, and made that clear yesterday.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Comments
Honestly in my opinion the most practical uniforms were the Enterprise and what I call the First Contact uniforms. Later TNG and DS9/Voyager uniforms were more practical than the TMP and TNG s1 uniforms. And honestly the TOS uniforms were just shirts.
Wrath of Khan uniforms were pretty nice too.
My character Tsin'xing
I'm willing to say yes. The TOS uniforms were basically rule of cool tempered with what was affordable in their budget
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
The ending point is what CBS decides and/or wants. The 2009 policy editorial still says on screen only but can change in future. The End. Don't pass go. Being silent on it does not equal a retraction of policy. Sorta like saying hey we haven't admended the Constitution in awhile so its basic principles and policies are no longer valid. I believe even the devs have stated canon is on screen only. And they work with CBS reguarly. As for the unis well we well get them when CBS says ok.
original join date 2010
Member: Team Trekyards. Visit Trekyards today!
There is only one canon. And its listed in the Star Trek database under "The Star Trek Canon."
Database
The Offical Star Trek Canon.
Navigator
Series Synopses:
Star Trek: Voyager
Star Trek: The Original Series
Star Trek: The Next Generation
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
Star Trek: Enterprise
Star Trek: The Animated Series
Star Trek: Discovery
Movie Synopses:
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
Star Trek (2009)
Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
Star Trek Nemesis
Star Trek Generations
Star Trek Insurrection
Star Trek: The Motion Picture
Star Trek Into Darkness
Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home
Star Trek V: The Final Frontier
Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country
Star Trek First Contact
Star Trek Beyond
original join date 2010
Member: Team Trekyards. Visit Trekyards today!
My character Tsin'xing
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
My character Tsin'xing
Axanar deserved every book thrown at them for the shtako they pulled.
But I separate my thoughts of Alec Peters, from my appreciation for the Axanar project.
And speaking purely As A Project, it was one which captured the feel of Star Trek, and recreated an immediately recognizable representation of the pre-TOS era. As projects go, it met the standard required
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
But what did it produce? You said if yourself: A very nice trailer. A trailer which:
-Recreated a specific era of the Prime Timeline with easy and immediate recognizability.
-Convinced a significant amount of people to donate funds towards the production of a movie.
I'd call that successful
Now the lack of a final script, is a by the by issue: Suicide Squad got re-written halfway through principal photography, and Axanar wasn't anywhere near that stage, so the lack of a final script, really not the issue it's framed as.
I am, very keen to see what does get released, now that the guidlines're in place, and where the Axanar Project goes from this point
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Star Wars went through innumerable scripts, starting from the saga of the Starkiller family; one tidbit revealed earlier today was that until shortly before filming, there was a scene at the ruins of Alderaan where Luke reveals to Han that he was scammed into taking them (in that version, Luke and Ben claimed to have the rest of the payment for the trip on them, but would withhold it until they arrived safely; Han demands payment because he contracted to take them to Alderaan, and it's not his fault it's not there any more. Luke has to shamefacedly confess they'd lied about the payment).
Scripts being rewritten is common. But in general, your movie proposal can hardly be called a success if it doesn't even have a first draft. And a trailer, no matter how pretty, is still a trailer. The movie project was, by any sane standard, a dismal failure.
It is specified. If you think something is missing then what is it? This is CBSs own list. Maybe you should tell them what they are leaving out.
original join date 2010
Member: Team Trekyards. Visit Trekyards today!
Crowdfunded films operate, and are financed, differently to Big Studio productions. To say that Axanar failed 'because it didn't have a final script', is laughable, and the comment of someone who doesn't understand film-making. Before a shooting script is transcribed, for an independant film-maker, there are numerous things which need to be arranged and settled, such as location, for example. A set was needed for the Ares' bridge, and that required a sound stage upon which to build it.
-What is the point in sitting down and writing a script, when there's no stage upon which to perform said script?
Even if Axanar didn't 'have a final script', there was still a treatment and concept, which a script would then be written to bring to life. The task of sitting down to get a story transcribed into a script, is way down the list of priorities, compared to other things which need to be arranged first. You confuse 'not having a script', with 'not having thought of a story to tell': Dunning-Kruger Effect.
Again, Axanar 'failed', because legal action stopped it in its tracks, because Alec Peters making profit off the Star Trek IP, which is legally indefensible.
A project stalling, and then having to re-structure due to legal action, is not the same as a project failing due to internal issues.
What was Prelude intended to do?
Draw interest and funding for a potential movie about the Federation/Klingon Four Years War.
It succeeded in doing exactly that.
So as an 'appetizer project', it did Not fail. That the potential movie has been unable to proceed as initially planned, due to legal interventions, is an entirely different matter, and as I said, I'm very keen to see what does get released instead.
And to once more state the point, the universe and era in which that piece was set, is unquestionable from the presentation.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Also, ponder this: how do you know what sets and props you will need if you haven't even figured out how many scenes there will be in the movie?
My character Tsin'xing
Could Axanar have been good? Yes.
Did Peters frak up by trying to monetize? Oh hell yes.
I mean the guy not only took crowdfunding, and paid himself a salary, he tried to sell Axanar COFFEE. Complete with the Starfleet delta on the package.
Quality aside, Peters is ultimately at fault as he has violated copyright law by trying to make money off something he doesn't own. The fault for the failure of Axanar rests solely on Peters and his actions. He used the Star Trek IP to try and fund his new stage, which was NOT advertised in the crowdfunding campaign. He basically exploited the goodwill of fans for profit.
This particular topic has been done to death. We should probably get back to discussing the Discovery uniforms now.
Also, I was serious when I said Peters literally asked for it. CBS tried a more amicable solution, but Peters kept refusing to deal. He demanded CBS give him a set of guidelines on what they felt was appropriate for a fan-film, IN COURT!
Honestly his behavior only makes sense if he thought he could somehow force them to back down, which is why he kept trying to raise the stakes instead of folding.
My character Tsin'xing
Like I said, transcribing a shooting script, is actually a very low priority in terms of the preparation stage, which needs many other things done first.
The amount of scenes which will be in the movie, is irrelevant to the overall story someone wishes to tell, and the tools they will need (such as props and sets) with which to tell it. There's no point in sitting down and transcribing a sci-fi script, with no means to have said script enacted.
Act I: Scene I: Int. Bridge of USS Whatever.
Captain Awesome stands on the flaming bridge with devestation all around!
That right there, needs a bridge set. And costume. And props. And lighting. And camera equipment. And sound equipment. And actors. And catering. And insurances.
There's no point whatsoever in writing the action and dialogue, without all those other things being in place first
I agree with the #noaccountability in principle, there was none, but I also weight that up, with the knowledge that an ex partner is not going to give a glowing testimonial of their former partner, or they would still be partners: That things broke down between parties is not the issue, but that those coming out of the relationship on bad terms, colors what they say. It has to be taken into account
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Funnily enough, those things, aren't the reason why I brought Axanar up. I brought it up, because of the use of costuming (and also sets and aesthetics) in creating an immediately identifiable Prime Timeline era, which the producers of Discovery have utterly failed to do. That the notion of Axanar being a failure, and all that comes with that was revived, you can thank jonsills, who seemed to feel the need to criticize and dismiss Axanar 'because reasons', rather than just getting the point, and saying "You're right, Silver, what they did, was recognizably Pre TOS-Trek..."
Having several friends in the industry, and actually spoken to the guy himself (albeit briefly) I was able to point out the errors in jon's laymans assertion that 'Axanar was a failure', simply because he was judging it by the wrong criteria
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Except that's not true. If you're of a mind that screen-is-God, and canon is based on what appears on screen, CBS literally can do no wrong. Discovery DEFINES canon for the periods in which it exists. It may not resonate with previous presentations, but it still instantly and automatically overturns previous canon. Newer works replace older works by default. Unless Gorn are a highly morphologically diverse species, the TOS appearance has been trumped by the ENT appearance. The Cage is being overwritten and all of TOS's aesthetics called into question. Some folks may not approve, but it's pretty hard to question CBS's privilege to do so. And for audiences whose chief exposure to the property is through the recent movies (and with Trek off the air for over a decade that's a LOT of the market that matters to TV producers) Discovery is very much "immediately identifiable" as Star Trek.
To me, Discovery has made two huge missteps, and that's what I'm hoping to ask them about at the SDCC panel. Putting it on Netflix everywhere except the USA is NUTS. But equally freakish/foolish in my opinion was every claiming it was anything other than more of the Kelvin Timeline. Why would you bet against an immensely successful reboot? (aesthetically, even if it did a little song and dance to avoid invalidating all of old-timer Trek continuity) They clearly WANT to use an updated aesthetic for the tech and are taking far more cues from Enterprise than TOS when it comes to costuming. They could have saved themselves all this angst by flipping old timers the bird up front instead of trying to string them along with promises that it's set in the Prime Timeline in a way they'll hate even more...
Ability to do so, and if it is right to do so, is two different things. Doing so 'for the sake of it' is not reason to do so. Especially not, when using the hook '10 years before Kirk and the Enterprise'
Balderdash! Remove the delta logo(s) from the uniform, and it's utterly generic sci-fi. The design of the Shenzhou, I've actually seen posted on the Axanar fb page, identified as the USS Adelaide, and is a Star Trek Online-era design (I believe, from the art style, by John Eaves) Putting a VW Beetle in a production of The Crucifixtion of Jesus of Nazareth, for example, doesn't make it a donkey and cart
At a guess, because I (believe) Kelvin Timeline is Paramount's IP, not CBS's IP. Given how they had to team up to sue Alec Peters, I doubt CBs wanted to rub Paramount the wrong way, by asking to play with their toys
I suspect, that the putting it on Netflix, was the only way to get the funding
They have (I believe) made a massive mistake, not so much in revamping the aesthetic, but by their bait and switch tactic of saying it's Prime Timeline 10 years before Kirk and the Enterprise, and then delivering something which could either be Kelvin Timeline, or even Prime Timeline post-Nemesis. That arrogance to presume upon the goodwill of the fanbase with such shenanigans, that is their big mistake, and I sincerely hope it turns round and bites them in the TRIBBLE
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I'm no expert on the subject but I'm not blind to what can happen if not approached correctly. A more on-point case in point would be the T6 TOS Constitution. Fans and players alike have been clamoring for it for a long time, but if I remember correctly it wasn't allowed till recently not because it couldn't be done but because CBS wasn't allowing it. Not sure what changed, but in order to just consider Star Trek Discovery content Perfect World would need to iron out some manner of license for it. If you really want a little Discovery in your STO, instead of arguing about canon you might want to petition Perfect World to get that ball rolling.
So long as you're just another user, though, anyone can post anything they want (within reason) in these threads. If you don't like it, you're free to take your conversation into messages with your buddies.
That being said, perhaps this thread is due for a shutdown, as it's become plain that no one is being persuaded of anything any more.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth