CBS and Paramount have at best an uneasy if not actively adversarial relationship with the fanbase right now considering the level of draconian collective punishment of fan works in the wake of the Axenar issue (PROTIP: ask Lars Ulrich how suing your fans affects your public relations profile), and there is reason for the old school fans to feel hostility from the companies involved.
Enh, Axanar deserved to get buried 6 feet under the courthouse for the **** they pulled. More so because they forced CBS/Paramount to enact the fan film guidelines. They literally asked for it in court...
Please note that I called out the "draconian collective punishment of fan works", not the action against Axenar itself. I have mixed feelings about the Axenar case, I think inappropriate things were done on both sides and I would have preferred a more amicable compromise had taken place. That is a separate debate, however. My concern is the larger issue of the so-called "guidelines" for fan works and how gross and unnecessary an overreach they are.
The Axenar Project and the people involved are not one and the same as the fanbase in general, and neither is Axenar one and the same as all fan series and films. A nuanced approach, one that recognizes that different situations with different people involved require different solutions, is necessary. That means that, even if an aggressive zero-tolerance action was justified by the lines crossed by the one production group, there was no justification for the absolutely scorched earth approach the IP owners took against the entirety of the fanbase and any and all fan works now and in the future. Whatever the Axenar people did wrong, the producers of other fan series and films had nothing to do with it and didn't deserve to have the hammer dropped on them.
CBS's approach is a lot more nuanced than you seem to think. Yes, it's a prohibitively long list of restrictions. Some of them had a major impact on existing productions, and so on and so forth. However... they reserve the right to enforce the guidelines as strictly or loosely as they see fit.
Also, I was serious when I said Peters literally asked for it. CBS tried a more amicable solution, but Peters kept refusing to deal. He demanded CBS give him a set of guidelines on what they felt was appropriate for a fan-film, IN COURT!
Honestly his behavior only makes sense if he thought he could somehow force them to back down, which is why he kept trying to raise the stakes instead of folding.
Yup, he well and truly shot himself in the foot on that one (and in the process ruined things for everyone else) But I'm sepersting my opinion of him as a person, from my appreciation for the project, and the recognizable Pre-TOS Prime Timeline aesthetic it was successful in creating
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Funnily enough, those things, aren't the reason why I brought Axanar up. I brought it up, because of the use of costuming (and also sets and aesthetics) in creating an immediately identifiable Prime Timeline era, which the producers of Discovery have utterly failed to do.
Except that's not true. If you're of a mind that screen-is-God, and canon is based on what appears on screen, CBS literally can do no wrong. Discovery DEFINES canon for the periods in which it exists. It may not resonate with previous presentations, but it still instantly and automatically overturns previous canon. Newer works replace older works by default. Unless Gorn are a highly morphologically diverse species, the TOS appearance has been trumped by the ENT appearance. The Cage is being overwritten and all of TOS's aesthetics called into question. Some folks may not approve, but it's pretty hard to question CBS's privilege to do so. And for audiences whose chief exposure to the property is through the recent movies (and with Trek off the air for over a decade that's a LOT of the market that matters to TV producers) Discovery is very much "immediately identifiable" as Star Trek.
To me, Discovery has made two huge missteps, and that's what I'm hoping to ask them about at the SDCC panel. Putting it on Netflix everywhere except the USA is NUTS. But equally freakish/foolish in my opinion was every claiming it was anything other than more of the Kelvin Timeline. Why would you bet against an immensely successful reboot? (aesthetically, even if it did a little song and dance to avoid invalidating all of old-timer Trek continuity) They clearly WANT to use an updated aesthetic for the tech and are taking far more cues from Enterprise than TOS when it comes to costuming. They could have saved themselves all this angst by flipping old timers the bird up front instead of trying to string them along with promises that it's set in the Prime Timeline in a way they'll hate even more...
Funnily enough, those things, aren't the reason why I brought Axanar up. I brought it up, because of the use of costuming (and also sets and aesthetics) in creating an immediately identifiable Prime Timeline era, which the producers of Discovery have utterly failed to do.
Except that's not true. If you're of a mind that screen-is-God, and canon is based on what appears on screen, CBS literally can do no wrong. Discovery DEFINES canon for the periods in which it exists. It may not resonate with previous presentations, but it still instantly and automatically overturns previous canon.
And in doing so, gives the finger to not only the fanbase, but the very franchise upon which it is riding the coat-tails of: Doubly so, by making that insistence '[in the Prime Timeline]10 years before Kirk and the Enterprise' as a lure to try and snag some viewers through nostalgia-baiting. Like I said before, if they wanted to do their own thing and go their own way, they should have done that, not gone down the nostalgia-hook bait-switch route, because it's put people's backs up. Again, Axanar showed what was immediately identifiable as Pre-TOS Prime Timeline, which is all needs to be said about Axanar, for the purpose of this discussion.
Newer works replace older works by default. Unless Gorn are a highly morphologically diverse species, the TOS appearance has been trumped by the ENT appearance. The Cage is being overwritten and all of TOS's aesthetics called into question. Some folks may not approve, but it's pretty hard to question CBS's privilege to do so.
Ability to do so, and if it is right to do so, is two different things. Doing so 'for the sake of it' is not reason to do so. Especially not, when using the hook '10 years before Kirk and the Enterprise'
And for audiences whose chief exposure to the property is through the recent movies (and with Trek off the air for over a decade that's a LOT of the market that matters to TV producers) Discovery is very much "immediately identifiable" as Star Trek.
Balderdash! Remove the delta logo(s) from the uniform, and it's utterly generic sci-fi. The design of the Shenzhou, I've actually seen posted on the Axanar fb page, identified as the USS Adelaide, and is a Star Trek Online-era design (I believe, from the art style, by John Eaves) Putting a VW Beetle in a production of The Crucifixtion of Jesus of Nazareth, for example, doesn't make it a donkey and cart
To me, Discovery has made two huge missteps, and that's what I'm hoping to ask them about at the SDCC panel. Putting it on Netflix everywhere except the USA is NUTS. But equally freakish/foolish in my opinion was every claiming it was anything other than more of the Kelvin Timeline. Why would you bet against an immensely successful reboot? (aesthetically, even if it did a little song and dance to avoid invalidating all of old-timer Trek continuity) They clearly WANT to use an updated aesthetic for the tech and are taking far more cues from Enterprise than TOS when it comes to costuming. They could have saved themselves all this angst by flipping old timers the bird up front instead of trying to string them along with promises that it's set in the Prime Timeline in a way they'll hate even more...
At a guess, because I (believe) Kelvin Timeline is Paramount's IP, not CBS's IP. Given how they had to team up to sue Alec Peters, I doubt CBs wanted to rub Paramount the wrong way, by asking to play with their toys
I suspect, that the putting it on Netflix, was the only way to get the funding They wanted a flagship show for CBS Streaming, but wanted/needed someone else to pick to the tab
They have (I believe) made a massive mistake, not so much in revamping the aesthetic, but by their bait and switch tactic of saying it's Prime Timeline 10 years before Kirk and the Enterprise, and then delivering something which could either be Kelvin Timeline, or even Prime Timeline post-Nemesis. That arrogance to presume upon the goodwill of the fanbase with such shenanigans, that is their big mistake, and I sincerely hope it turns round and bites them in the TRIBBLE Enjoy SDCC though, get some good autographs
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
...They have (I believe) made a massive mistake, not so much in revamping the aesthetic, but by their bait and switch tactic of saying it's Prime Timeline 10 years before Kirk and the Enterprise, and then delivering something which could either be Kelvin Timeline, or even Prime Timeline post-Nemesis. That arrogance to presume upon the goodwill of the fanbase with such shenanigans, that is their big mistake, and I sincerely hope it turns round and bites them in the ****
Not every Star Trek fan sees the difference in design as "shenanigans" or a "bait and switch" or some other act of ill intent.
Please do not address comments to me
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
We could argue canon till we're all blue in the face but Cryptic has shown on at least four different occasions that canon isn't a consideration when it comes to what they add to the game (Kelvin Lock Box anyone?). No, the hurdle has never been canon. It's the Star Trek license Perfect World has with CBS. I've said this twice now in this same thread and seems the major discussion isn't how the uniform (and the ships) can get in the game but rather how much the fans would react if they were. We have to get to a starting point, yes, but that starting point isn't how canonical it is but rather how much it'd cost to begin with.
I'm no expert on the subject but I'm not blind to what can happen if not approached correctly. A more on-point case in point would be the T6 TOS Constitution. Fans and players alike have been clamoring for it for a long time, but if I remember correctly it wasn't allowed till recently not because it couldn't be done but because CBS wasn't allowing it. Not sure what changed, but in order to just consider Star Trek Discovery content Perfect World would need to iron out some manner of license for it. If you really want a little Discovery in your STO, instead of arguing about canon you might want to petition Perfect World to get that ball rolling.
Lobes, you don't get to police the forums. If you want to do so, apply to become a moderator (it seems unlikely you would be approved, but you can certainly apply).
So long as you're just another user, though, anyone can post anything they want (within reason) in these threads. If you don't like it, you're free to take your conversation into messages with your buddies.
That being said, perhaps this thread is due for a shutdown, as it's become plain that no one is being persuaded of anything any more.
> @silverlobes#2676 said:
> valoreah wrote: »
>
> silverlobes#2676 wrote: »
>
> ...They have (I believe) made a massive mistake, not so much in revamping the aesthetic, but by their bait and switch tactic of saying it's Prime Timeline 10 years before Kirk and the Enterprise, and then delivering something which could either be Kelvin Timeline, or even Prime Timeline post-Nemesis. That arrogance to presume upon the goodwill of the fanbase with such shenanigans, that is their big mistake, and I sincerely hope it turns round and bites them in the ****
>
>
>
>
> Not every Star Trek fan sees the difference in design as "shenanigans" or a "bait and switch" or some other act of ill intent.
>
>
>
> Please do not address comments to me
He makes a completely valid point which many of us agree with.
I accept the point made, I reject the conversation, and made that clear yesterday.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Lobes, you don't get to police the forums. If you want to do so, apply to become a moderator (it seems unlikely you would be approved, but you can certainly apply).
So long as you're just another user, though, anyone can post anything they want (within reason) in these threads. If you don't like it, you're free to take your conversation into messages with your buddies.
That being said, perhaps this thread is due for a shutdown, as it's become plain that no one is being persuaded of anything any more.
jon, my behaviour is 100% in compliance with what has been discussed with baddmoonrizin with regards this situation.
Look, you two don't want to play together, that's fine. As I stated before, no one can dictate to another forum user whether they can post or respond to a post. It's much easier to control your own actions than to try and control the actions of another. Case in point: I can't get you two to just ignore each other. That's a burden you'll have to take on yourself, whether the other party does the same or not, but that's going to require some self control. Geez, I hate doing this $#!* in public, but if you put your business out there for the world to see, expect the world to get involved. Can we just stop this now? Can this be the last thread that I have to deal with this $#!*? Please?
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,669Community Moderator
and stuff like this is why i refused kael's offer to make me a mod
And nominated me in your place Shadow.
I'd probably end up watching for Necromancy for a while until I get more used to the role if I had gotten it. Although I probably would shut down politics real fast since that never turns out well.
But... I just be the resident Voice of Reason and a Forum Sage. So I'll just sit here and do my usual thing.
Also to maintain our belief in our Forum Overlord Tacofangs.
Hail Tacofangs!
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
If it comes into the game, I *will* get it, because I think it could look even better with a little creative recoloring. (Also, I do agree that the boots are dumb. I wouldn't use the boots.)
Mostly, though, I think that more choices is good. Even when it's not a choice I'd make, like the New Orleans class or the Breen winter-event ships. Don't care for the look myself, but I support them being made available for the people that do.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,669Community Moderator
yeah, that whole 'Voice of Reason' thing was why i immediately thought of and nominated you to begin with - and i still would
Well... I do try to be level headed. But sometimes people just refuse to even consider possibilities outside of what they want or see. In which case Reason kinda... gets ignored or blasted for not agreeing.
If this makes it into the game, whether by C-Store or Lobi, I will not get it. It's hideous.
Of course, that's my opinion. And I haven't seen many opposing viewpoints on that. So looks like my opinion is with the majority.
I would. I mean the TMP uniforms are kinda blech IMO but with the right colors actually doesn't look too bad. Now if we could just remove that thing on the stomach if we didn't want it...
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
I do use TMP uniforms on two of my captains. I like it. And the belt thing should be removable, but I get along with it. I do recolor it and it looks nice.
But this hideous thing...no thanks. But I have nothing against someone who would want it.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,669Community Moderator
Did you know the enlisted/cadet uniforms from Wrath of Khan through Undiscovered Country are actually recolored TMP uniforms? If they let us do something like that...
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
True, TNG had 2-3 uniform changes because the first one was an ill-fitting unitard. It's a wonder they didn't have Reeves Syndrome (obvious bulge).
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,669Community Moderator
I've said this before, but the only issue I have honestly with the Discovery uniform is the rank insignia. Its even less visible than TNG era pips. Black dots on a badge honestly don't work for me.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
I just hate these canon vs non-canon arguments. I mean what would the Vulcanians think as they wait 20 years for lithium crystals to be delivered from Delta Vega. What would UESPA think?
So please, canon is mostly what the writers made up for any given episode as needed to advance the storyline.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Canon/noncanon. Doesn't matter to me. I just don't like the uniform, period. Perhaps, with time, it might grow on me. Hopefully not like algae. *Chuckle*
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
Comments
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Except that's not true. If you're of a mind that screen-is-God, and canon is based on what appears on screen, CBS literally can do no wrong. Discovery DEFINES canon for the periods in which it exists. It may not resonate with previous presentations, but it still instantly and automatically overturns previous canon. Newer works replace older works by default. Unless Gorn are a highly morphologically diverse species, the TOS appearance has been trumped by the ENT appearance. The Cage is being overwritten and all of TOS's aesthetics called into question. Some folks may not approve, but it's pretty hard to question CBS's privilege to do so. And for audiences whose chief exposure to the property is through the recent movies (and with Trek off the air for over a decade that's a LOT of the market that matters to TV producers) Discovery is very much "immediately identifiable" as Star Trek.
To me, Discovery has made two huge missteps, and that's what I'm hoping to ask them about at the SDCC panel. Putting it on Netflix everywhere except the USA is NUTS. But equally freakish/foolish in my opinion was every claiming it was anything other than more of the Kelvin Timeline. Why would you bet against an immensely successful reboot? (aesthetically, even if it did a little song and dance to avoid invalidating all of old-timer Trek continuity) They clearly WANT to use an updated aesthetic for the tech and are taking far more cues from Enterprise than TOS when it comes to costuming. They could have saved themselves all this angst by flipping old timers the bird up front instead of trying to string them along with promises that it's set in the Prime Timeline in a way they'll hate even more...
Ability to do so, and if it is right to do so, is two different things. Doing so 'for the sake of it' is not reason to do so. Especially not, when using the hook '10 years before Kirk and the Enterprise'
Balderdash! Remove the delta logo(s) from the uniform, and it's utterly generic sci-fi. The design of the Shenzhou, I've actually seen posted on the Axanar fb page, identified as the USS Adelaide, and is a Star Trek Online-era design (I believe, from the art style, by John Eaves) Putting a VW Beetle in a production of The Crucifixtion of Jesus of Nazareth, for example, doesn't make it a donkey and cart
At a guess, because I (believe) Kelvin Timeline is Paramount's IP, not CBS's IP. Given how they had to team up to sue Alec Peters, I doubt CBs wanted to rub Paramount the wrong way, by asking to play with their toys
I suspect, that the putting it on Netflix, was the only way to get the funding
They have (I believe) made a massive mistake, not so much in revamping the aesthetic, but by their bait and switch tactic of saying it's Prime Timeline 10 years before Kirk and the Enterprise, and then delivering something which could either be Kelvin Timeline, or even Prime Timeline post-Nemesis. That arrogance to presume upon the goodwill of the fanbase with such shenanigans, that is their big mistake, and I sincerely hope it turns round and bites them in the TRIBBLE
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I'm no expert on the subject but I'm not blind to what can happen if not approached correctly. A more on-point case in point would be the T6 TOS Constitution. Fans and players alike have been clamoring for it for a long time, but if I remember correctly it wasn't allowed till recently not because it couldn't be done but because CBS wasn't allowing it. Not sure what changed, but in order to just consider Star Trek Discovery content Perfect World would need to iron out some manner of license for it. If you really want a little Discovery in your STO, instead of arguing about canon you might want to petition Perfect World to get that ball rolling.
So long as you're just another user, though, anyone can post anything they want (within reason) in these threads. If you don't like it, you're free to take your conversation into messages with your buddies.
That being said, perhaps this thread is due for a shutdown, as it's become plain that no one is being persuaded of anything any more.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
@baddmoonrizin
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
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#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
And nominated me in your place Shadow.
I'd probably end up watching for Necromancy for a while until I get more used to the role if I had gotten it. Although I probably would shut down politics real fast since that never turns out well.
But... I just be the resident Voice of Reason and a Forum Sage. So I'll just sit here and do my usual thing.
Also to maintain our belief in our Forum Overlord Tacofangs.
Hail Tacofangs!
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Of course, that's my opinion. And I haven't seen many opposing viewpoints on that. So looks like my opinion is with the majority.
Mostly, though, I think that more choices is good. Even when it's not a choice I'd make, like the New Orleans class or the Breen winter-event ships. Don't care for the look myself, but I support them being made available for the people that do.
Well... I do try to be level headed. But sometimes people just refuse to even consider possibilities outside of what they want or see. In which case Reason kinda... gets ignored or blasted for not agreeing.
I would. I mean the TMP uniforms are kinda blech IMO but with the right colors actually doesn't look too bad. Now if we could just remove that thing on the stomach if we didn't want it...
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
But this hideous thing...no thanks. But I have nothing against someone who would want it.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
So please, canon is mostly what the writers made up for any given episode as needed to advance the storyline.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'