It is, but if you are a Commodore, you are not an Admiral. Why put up with that 'Lower Half' crud unless the Admiral portion really meant something to the 'owner'.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
That's because you are all looking to canon for rationale. Canon is what CBS says it is, but the it that it is, is whatever disparate writers wrote when they wrote and filmed the Episodes. And whatever wardrobe managed to put together at the time, for that matter.
Don't look for a consistent, 'hide-bound' ranking structure in here as you would get with an actual military organization where all this stuff is very important.
Commodore was removed in Star Trek pretty much corresponding to when it was removed from the US Navy. Don't discount the reason that Commodore was removed from the US Navy for, for the lack of a better word, vanity reasons.
Seniority is very important in military organizations. For the US adoption of the Fleet Admiral rank (and General of the Army) at the end of WWII, it was also very important that specific Admirals and Generals, were promoted on specific days for Seniority reasons.
First prove it was removed. Then say how the rational of a Earth bound military in the past would be shared by a non-military entering into the lest military period in its history, with very little obsession for rank or hierarchies.
Then explain how Rear Admiral Lower Half sounds less awesome then Commodore. The former makes you a pretend Rear Admiral, the latter gives you the brass the give a Doomsday Device the nuclear headbut.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
(...) the latter gives you the brass the give a Doomsday Device the nuclear headbut.
Quoted for awesomeness
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Memory Alpha...Starfleet stopped using commodore in 2364.
Memory Alpha. Failed to provide any televised canon sources for their random statements since 2005. Ready George and Gracie because [cetacean needed] .
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
First prove it was removed. Then say how the rational of a Earth bound military in the past would be shared by a non-military entering into the lest military period in its history, with very little obsession for rank or hierarchies.
Then explain how Rear Admiral Lower Half sounds less awesome then Commodore. The former makes you a pretend Rear Admiral, the latter gives you the brass the give a Doomsday Device the nuclear headbut.
The only "proof" of any changes with Commodore rank is the "omission" of it's use in any piece post TOS.
As to rationale, do we get any rationales for decisions made "off screen" in many cases, especially for ones that don't directly impact the crew we watch?
And Rear Admiral, Lower Half has more "awesomeness" to it than "Rear Admiral, Junior Grade". Though I've never been a fan of either...
Dang Navy, caved to PC-ness way before PC was a thing and "didn't take the Rear Admiral title away from the one stars that were (mistakenly, if all the Brigadier Generals thoughts were true) allowed to wear it"...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
First prove it was removed. Then say how the rational of a Earth bound military in the past would be shared by a non-military entering into the lest military period in its history, with very little obsession for rank or hierarchies.
Then explain how Rear Admiral Lower Half sounds less awesome then Commodore. The former makes you a pretend Rear Admiral, the latter gives you the brass the give a Doomsday Device the nuclear headbut.
The only "proof" of any changes with Commodore rank is the "omission" of it's use in any piece post TOS.
As to rationale, do we get any rationales for decisions made "off screen" in many cases, especially for ones that don't directly impact the crew we watch?
And Rear Admiral, Lower Half has more "awesomeness" to it than "Rear Admiral, Junior Grade". Though I've never been a fan of either...
Dang Navy, caved to PC-ness way before PC was a thing and "didn't take the Rear Admiral title away from the one stars that were (mistakenly, if all the Brigadier Generals thoughts were true) allowed to wear it"...
Well it's technically an omission, but how many full Admirals did we see? Fleet Admirals? Were those ranks removed? Were there no Petty Officers in TOS? Was O'Brien even a lieutenant? Why did Tuvok and Paris' ranks fluctuate throughout random episodes.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Sure we never see any past TMP, but as there is no reason for their removal or any circumstantial evidence (one pip admirals addressed as other than Commodore, or even appearing at all) there's no reason to assume they were removed.
Also, what's a 'Rear Admiral, Junior Grade'? I know sod all about the US military (not that it has any bearing on Starfleet though), but I've never heard that rank.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
'They laughed at me and made jokes but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt and with... geometric logic... that' I cannot prove an omission is a removal. Only through a seance with Gene Roddenberry could I divine that and I haven't had one of those in years. That subject never came up during those sessions.
Removed does not need to be a formal expungement. The discontinuance of use can, in effect, be a removal and just as like Sherlock Holmes points out the curious incident of the dog in the 'Silver Blaze': 'Gregory (Scotland Yard detective): "Is there any other point to which you would wish to draw my attention?" Holmes: "To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time." Gregory: "The dog did nothing in the night-time." Holmes: "That was the curious incident.'
It is indeed curious that when the US Navy drops the formal Commodore rank, Star Trek stops using it. But the main point is that STO does not use Commodore and also adopts the Lower Half convention of the US Navy.
For a rather lengthy discourse on Commodore and the US Navy (and Coast Guard) peruse this:
Remember, the people that write Star Trek are 20th/21st Century Americans, for the most part, and not Star Fleet Personnel from the 23rd - 25th Centuries.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
(...)
Remember, the people that write Star Trek are 20th/21st Century Americans, for the most part, and not Star Fleet Personnel from the 23rd - 25th Centuries.
But that has nothing to do with anything. Star Trek is a fictional work and the world we are shown works via what is established and shown to us. They show one pip flag officers to be Commodores in TOS. We never see a one pip flag officer afterwards. But we also never see a four or even five pip flag officer post TMP/TWOK era or at all. Don't they exist? We never see a Tellarite post TOS. Did they cease to exist?
EDIT: To make this a bit less polemic, @artan42 already briefly mentioned it: Enlisted ranks. TOS had them, late TNG/DS9 and on had them yet early TNG doesn't show them. We know for a fact that Rodenberry wanted only officers, so there were no enlisted shown. Yet, TOS had them and late TNG had them again. Does it make sense to assume, in-universe, Starfleet abandoned enlisted for a short period of time before bringing them back for whatever reason?
Similiar here. TOS and TMP had Commodores, one pip flag officers. Later installments never mentioned Commodores (aside from Geordi calling a Romulan Centurion "Commodore") but also never showed one pip flag officers. We are shown two pips (rear admiral - well, actually the in-dialogue rear admiral had four pips on screen. Dun-dun! ) and three pips (vice admiral) post TOS/TMP. Did Starfleet abandon one-pip and four-pip flag officers, does this make sense? When they replaced uniforms we are shown that one thing substitutes for the other. When a thing just never comes up again we have no way of telling if it actually vanished or just isn't relevant to what we are shown. Does it make sense for a 24th century service to abandon a rank because 20th century national military did so when the future service had that rank in the 23rd century still?
Post edited by angrytarg on
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
the only thing that is a little confusing regarding the current rank system of sto is there is no rank above the one we hold.
does this mean that we will never go above lv60 in a future update and there will never be any tier 7 or above ships or does this mean that if they do bring in an update with level 70 or above we will all be demoted when the rank system is rearranged to accommodate the rise in level cap.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
The only thing that bothers me with my admiral rank is that voiced npcs don't address me as such, very annoying. I don't think captain would be appropriate considering I have hundreds of officers and an entire fleet of ships under my command. Every day I sit behind the desk and read mission reports, send ships on various missions and assign officers to various tasks such as colonial efforts, prisoner transfers, medical tests of new cures, espionage, etc. so yes me being a fleet admiral is very much appropriate. I'm glad when I can just take one of the ships and go shoot something, very nice stress relief
First prove it was removed. Then say how the rational of a Earth bound military in the past would be shared by a non-military entering into the lest military period in its history, with very little obsession for rank or hierarchies.
Then explain how Rear Admiral Lower Half sounds less awesome then Commodore. The former makes you a pretend Rear Admiral, the latter gives you the brass the give a Doomsday Device the nuclear headbut.
The only "proof" of any changes with Commodore rank is the "omission" of it's use in any piece post TOS.
As to rationale, do we get any rationales for decisions made "off screen" in many cases, especially for ones that don't directly impact the crew we watch?
And Rear Admiral, Lower Half has more "awesomeness" to it than "Rear Admiral, Junior Grade". Though I've never been a fan of either...
Dang Navy, caved to PC-ness way before PC was a thing and "didn't take the Rear Admiral title away from the one stars that were (mistakenly, if all the Brigadier Generals thoughts were true) allowed to wear it"...
Well it's technically an omission, but how many full Admirals did we see? Fleet Admirals? Were those ranks removed? Were there no Petty Officers in TOS? Was O'Brien even a lieutenant? Why did Tuvok and Paris' ranks fluctuate throughout random episodes.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Sure we never see any past TMP, but as there is no reason for their removal or any circumstantial evidence (one pip admirals addressed as other than Commodore, or even appearing at all) there's no reason to assume they were removed.
Also, what's a 'Rear Admiral, Junior Grade'? I know sod all about the US military (not that it has any bearing on Starfleet though), but I've never heard that rank.
1. I'd have to see what the novelization says, but it's kind of hard to believe that Kirk went all the way from O6 (Captain) to O10 (Full, non-disqualified Admiral) in the span of time from end-of-TAS to start of TMP. Therefore, even though everyone addressed him as "Admiral" Kirk, he was more likely really "Rear Admiral, Lower Half" or somesuch - and omitting all the "qualifiers" is quite common with Flag Ranks (Admiral and General).
2. And so, if he did only make "one star" by TMP, the fact that he was addressed as Admiral would be the... canonolical proof that "Commodore = 1 star" was... dispensed with.
3. There has never been Rear Admiral, Junior Grade. It was a bit of a jab at the "awesomeness" comment combined with a touch of "picking on the Navy" for not using their "demonstrated titling system" - Lieutenant Junior Grade and Lieutenant when they "historically" pulled Commodore from the "rank chart"...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
When someone has a qualifier on their rank...Lieutenant Junior Grade, Lieutenant Commander, Rear Admiral Lower Half....the qualifier isn't mentioned. LTJG is referred to as just Lieutenant. Lieutenant Commander is just Commander. So while Star Trek may or may not have had Rear Admiral LH...they would only be called Admiral.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
1. I'd have to see what the novelization says, but it's kind of hard to believe that Kirk went all the way from O6 (Captain) to O10 (Full, non-disqualified Admiral) in the span of time from end-of-TAS to start of TMP. Therefore, even though everyone addressed him as "Admiral" Kirk, he was more likely really "Rear Admiral, Lower Half" or somesuch - and omitting all the "qualifiers" is quite common with Flag Ranks (Admiral and General).
It's not hard at all. Starfleet does not promote people like the US military promotes people. Look at how quickly Janeway went from an OF-5 to an OF-8.
But he was addressed as 'Admiral' that's at least four ranks he could be by conventional logic. I can't make head nor tails of the sleeve ranks but we do know it's higher than captain .
3. And so, if he did only make "one star" by TMP, the fact that he was addressed as Admiral would be the... canonolical proof that "Commodore = 1 star" was... dispensed with.
There's a few things that could tell us.
1) Commodores are addressed as Admirals. Unlikely due to how they were addressed in TOS.
2) A mistake was made. It wouldn't be the first time errors have been made between costuming and dialogue. Vice Admiral pipped Fleet Admirals, Rear Admiral pipped Fleet Admirals, fleet Admiral pipped Commodores! Lieutenant/Ensign/Chief/Petty Officer O'Brien etc.
3) Kirk is a Rear Admiral.
4) Starfleet finally learnt what one particular Earth military did a few hundred years ago and decided to copy them despite the function of a Starfleet Admiral not being equivocal to a US Navy Admiral.
4. There has never been Rear Admiral, Junior Grade. It was a bit of a jab at the "awesomeness" comment combined with a touch of "picking on the Navy" for not using their "demonstrated titling system" - Lieutenant Junior Grade and Lieutenant when they "historically" pulled Commodore from the "rank chart"...
Oh, I see. We call them Sublieutenants over here. So what do the USAF call their Air-Commodores then? Air-Rear Admirals: Lower Halves?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
"Rear Admiral" sounds like you're hardly in control of your own butt.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I tried to explain why Commodore may have disappeared in Star Trek. OK, so it is irrelevant that contemporary people write the fictional stuff for a fictional future.
To all of that I say Denali. Two Episodes from Enterprise and at least one from TNG mention Mt. McKinley. So canon is now at odds with today. The future gets the past wrong.
But really, all this talk about Star Trek is irrelevant. What is relevant is STO and how it treats Commodores.
It doesn't? Why is that?
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Back when DStahl was EP, he told me - somewhere in the sea of archived posts - that Commodore would become available through the Fleet System. Can anyone in a Tier 5 fleet confirm that such a title unlock ever came to pass?
(/\) Exploring Star Trek Online Since July 2008 (/\)
"Rear Admiral" sounds like you're hardly in control of your own butt.
So does that mean that someone with a "Commodore" rank is in charge of a computer from the 80's? :P
Since that would totally rock I'd be all for it
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Back when DStahl was EP, he told me - somewhere in the sea of archived posts - that Commodore would become available through the Fleet System. Can anyone in a Tier 5 fleet confirm that such a title unlock ever came to pass?
Fleet Leaders have the options to change the names of fleet ranks as they wish, so any fleet can have a Commodore rank as soon as it is created basically, however NPCs will never call you that.
Yes. I understand that mechanic. What I mean are unlock-able titles. Which would, in the suggestion that NPC's recognize those unlocks, be used to address characters beyond the fleet itself. A fleet reputation unlock, maybe? I guess that I'm surprised that Commodore isn't already an option in that fashion. It's a particular carrot that I'd work through my fleet to gain.
(/\) Exploring Star Trek Online Since July 2008 (/\)
I can't say, my Fed fleet is a solo just for my Fed characters, and I'm only now reaching T3 on the starbase itself (T2, T2, T1, T1, Mine, Embassy, Spire, Lab). I have not found anything like that in there. The KDF fleet I'm several members of (lol) is much closer to finished, but naturally that rank/title wouldn't be found there.
There is definitely no Commodore or other fleet unlock title/rank in the game
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Comments
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
First prove it was removed. Then say how the rational of a Earth bound military in the past would be shared by a non-military entering into the lest military period in its history, with very little obsession for rank or hierarchies.
Then explain how Rear Admiral Lower Half sounds less awesome then Commodore. The former makes you a pretend Rear Admiral, the latter gives you the brass the give a Doomsday Device the nuclear headbut.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Quoted for awesomeness
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Heh, so true!
arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1203368/pve-content-a-list-of-gamewide-polishing-pass-suggestions
I stopped using my commodore when I bought my laptop pc.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Star Trek Online ... stopped using Memory Alpha July 17, 2014
Memory Alpha. Failed to provide any televised canon sources for their random statements since 2005. Ready George and Gracie because [cetacean needed] .
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
The only "proof" of any changes with Commodore rank is the "omission" of it's use in any piece post TOS.
As to rationale, do we get any rationales for decisions made "off screen" in many cases, especially for ones that don't directly impact the crew we watch?
And Rear Admiral, Lower Half has more "awesomeness" to it than "Rear Admiral, Junior Grade". Though I've never been a fan of either...
Dang Navy, caved to PC-ness way before PC was a thing and "didn't take the Rear Admiral title away from the one stars that were (mistakenly, if all the Brigadier Generals thoughts were true) allowed to wear it"...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Well it's technically an omission, but how many full Admirals did we see? Fleet Admirals? Were those ranks removed? Were there no Petty Officers in TOS? Was O'Brien even a lieutenant? Why did Tuvok and Paris' ranks fluctuate throughout random episodes.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Sure we never see any past TMP, but as there is no reason for their removal or any circumstantial evidence (one pip admirals addressed as other than Commodore, or even appearing at all) there's no reason to assume they were removed.
Also, what's a 'Rear Admiral, Junior Grade'? I know sod all about the US military (not that it has any bearing on Starfleet though), but I've never heard that rank.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Removed does not need to be a formal expungement. The discontinuance of use can, in effect, be a removal and just as like Sherlock Holmes points out the curious incident of the dog in the 'Silver Blaze':
'Gregory (Scotland Yard detective): "Is there any other point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
Holmes: "To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
Gregory: "The dog did nothing in the night-time."
Holmes: "That was the curious incident.'
It is indeed curious that when the US Navy drops the formal Commodore rank, Star Trek stops using it. But the main point is that STO does not use Commodore and also adopts the Lower Half convention of the US Navy.
For a rather lengthy discourse on Commodore and the US Navy (and Coast Guard) peruse this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_(United_States)
Remember, the people that write Star Trek are 20th/21st Century Americans, for the most part, and not Star Fleet Personnel from the 23rd - 25th Centuries.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
But that has nothing to do with anything. Star Trek is a fictional work and the world we are shown works via what is established and shown to us. They show one pip flag officers to be Commodores in TOS. We never see a one pip flag officer afterwards. But we also never see a four or even five pip flag officer post TMP/TWOK era or at all. Don't they exist? We never see a Tellarite post TOS. Did they cease to exist?
EDIT: To make this a bit less polemic, @artan42 already briefly mentioned it: Enlisted ranks. TOS had them, late TNG/DS9 and on had them yet early TNG doesn't show them. We know for a fact that Rodenberry wanted only officers, so there were no enlisted shown. Yet, TOS had them and late TNG had them again. Does it make sense to assume, in-universe, Starfleet abandoned enlisted for a short period of time before bringing them back for whatever reason?
Similiar here. TOS and TMP had Commodores, one pip flag officers. Later installments never mentioned Commodores (aside from Geordi calling a Romulan Centurion "Commodore") but also never showed one pip flag officers. We are shown two pips (rear admiral - well, actually the in-dialogue rear admiral had four pips on screen. Dun-dun!
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does this mean that we will never go above lv60 in a future update and there will never be any tier 7 or above ships or does this mean that if they do bring in an update with level 70 or above we will all be demoted when the rank system is rearranged to accommodate the rise in level cap.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
1. I'd have to see what the novelization says, but it's kind of hard to believe that Kirk went all the way from O6 (Captain) to O10 (Full, non-disqualified Admiral) in the span of time from end-of-TAS to start of TMP. Therefore, even though everyone addressed him as "Admiral" Kirk, he was more likely really "Rear Admiral, Lower Half" or somesuch - and omitting all the "qualifiers" is quite common with Flag Ranks (Admiral and General).
2. And so, if he did only make "one star" by TMP, the fact that he was addressed as Admiral would be the... canonolical proof that "Commodore = 1 star" was... dispensed with.
3. There has never been Rear Admiral, Junior Grade. It was a bit of a jab at the "awesomeness" comment combined with a touch of "picking on the Navy" for not using their "demonstrated titling system" - Lieutenant Junior Grade and Lieutenant when they "historically" pulled Commodore from the "rank chart"...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
It's not hard at all. Starfleet does not promote people like the US military promotes people. Look at how quickly Janeway went from an OF-5 to an OF-8.
But he was addressed as 'Admiral' that's at least four ranks he could be by conventional logic. I can't make head nor tails of the sleeve ranks but we do know it's higher than captain
There's a few things that could tell us.
1) Commodores are addressed as Admirals. Unlikely due to how they were addressed in TOS.
2) A mistake was made. It wouldn't be the first time errors have been made between costuming and dialogue. Vice Admiral pipped Fleet Admirals, Rear Admiral pipped Fleet Admirals, fleet Admiral pipped Commodores! Lieutenant/Ensign/Chief/Petty Officer O'Brien etc.
3) Kirk is a Rear Admiral.
4) Starfleet finally learnt what one particular Earth military did a few hundred years ago and decided to copy them despite the function of a Starfleet Admiral not being equivocal to a US Navy Admiral.
Oh, I see. We call them Sublieutenants over here. So what do the USAF call their Air-Commodores then? Air-Rear Admirals: Lower Halves?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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To all of that I say Denali. Two Episodes from Enterprise and at least one from TNG mention Mt. McKinley. So canon is now at odds with today. The future gets the past wrong.
But really, all this talk about Star Trek is irrelevant. What is relevant is STO and how it treats Commodores.
It doesn't? Why is that?
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Just STOP that! Silly
So does that mean that someone with a "Commodore" rank is in charge of a computer from the 80's? :P
Since that would totally rock I'd be all for it
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Yes. I understand that mechanic. What I mean are unlock-able titles. Which would, in the suggestion that NPC's recognize those unlocks, be used to address characters beyond the fleet itself. A fleet reputation unlock, maybe? I guess that I'm surprised that Commodore isn't already an option in that fashion. It's a particular carrot that I'd work through my fleet to gain.
There is definitely no Commodore or other fleet unlock title/rank in the game
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