I just hope there is Commodore instead of RALH in the TOS faction, that would tickle me pink.
And in the rest of the game as per canon.
The last time the rank of Commodore is used in Trek is season 1 TNG. According to the writers/producers/etc the reason why it was no longer used after that was two-fold. First, they dropped it because all the Commodores seen in TOS were insane or TRIBBLE. Second, they dropped it because the US Navy discontinued the use of the rank at the time season 2 of TNG was starting to be filmed.
But as one pip admirals continued to be seen and Starfleet is not the US Navy what the writers intended obviously didn't make it to screen.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Rear Admiral, Lower Half - Subadmiral I & Rear Admiral, Upper Half - Subadmiral II (tier 5 ranks) you are splitting hairs with ranks that are up to lv50 you still have Vice Admiral, Admiral and Fleet Admiral (tier 6 ranks) that are the same all of the ranks introduced to the game after they expanded the max level to lv60, besides which all of these ranks are above captain as in being levels of admiralty so you point is?
I'm not splitting hairs at all.
Federation = Fleet Admiral
KDF = Dahar Master
TOS Faction = "Whatever Cryptic wants to call it, which could be, just ... Captain"
There's nothing to prevent this from happening in terms of game mechanics because it's already in the game with Klingons. The TOS Faction ranking structure could be this:
Level 0 = Smurf
Level 1 to 10 = Gummy Bear
Level 11 to 20 = Snork
Level 21 to 30 = Shirttail
Level 31 to 40 = Trollkin
Level 41 to 45 = Power Ranger
Level 46 to 50 = Muppet
Level 51 to 55 = Looney Tune
Level 56 to 59 = Silverhawk
Level 60 = Snarf! Snarf!
They could make that the ranks. And it would just fine. Not break the game. That's my point.
EDIT: Or maybe just let the Level 40 rank titles make the point for me ...
Romulan is Subadmiral. Klingon is Brigadier General. Federation is Rear Admiral Lower Half. The TOS title could be ... anything.
TOS does indeed have its own rank structure but once your characters becomes a part of the fed faction they will have to adopt the rank structure for that faction so your character might be max rank captain up to that point but beyond that point your character will continue on to Admiral in keeping with the fed faction rank structure.
after all beyond that point you are no longer playing the character as a TOS character but as a fed character.
My Romulan had to choose to be incorporated into the Federation or the KDF. He chose Federation. But when he was a Sub Admiral, he didn't break the game at all.
you were given a choice because there were two possible factions for you to choose between, with the TOS faction you will not be given a choice you will have to join the fed faction.
mind you I suppose there is one other choice you could make, delete character.
Rear Admiral, Lower Half - Subadmiral I & Rear Admiral, Upper Half - Subadmiral II (tier 5 ranks) you are splitting hairs with ranks that are up to lv50 you still have Vice Admiral, Admiral and Fleet Admiral (tier 6 ranks) that are the same all of the ranks introduced to the game after they expanded the max level to lv60, besides which all of these ranks are above captain as in being levels of admiralty so you point is?
still I suppose you could win the day and stay as captains (tier 4 rank) and be excluded from flying tier 5 and tier 6 ships as they are only for tier 5, tier 5U and tier 6 characters or admiralty only ships.
I'm sorry Bobby - you are arguing from a false assumption.
The reason Fed aligned Romulans are call Fleet Admirals is because that is what the top ROMULAN rank is. It has nothing to do with which side you chose. If you have a Klingon aligned level 60 Romulan character, he is still called Fleet Admiral.
This means that any new faction (like TOS) can have any rank/level titles they want as was pointed out above.
This also means you can have a level 60 'Captain' flying around in a Tier 6 ship. Everything is based on level - not rank. A level 60 is a level 60 - regardless if you call him Admiral or Fozzy Bear as his title.
Cryptic really screwed the pooch when they decided to marry rank and level. That's where you are getting confused.
you can argue rank structures until you are blue in the face it doesn't alter the fact that all of the current timeline characters ranks finish well above captain level and when your TOS characters joins the current timeline and the fed faction there is no reason for them to be any different.
this applies even more to your TOS character the it would to any other as they are basically federation character's to begin with and even in TOS they had admiral ranks so it was not out of canon for there to be admirals in star fleet .
sure cryptic can call them anything they like even Fozzy Bear its their game but they chose to call lv60 fed characters admirals and I suspect they will stick with that model for TOS characters.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
[...]
you can argue rank structures until you are blue in the face it doesn't alter the fact that all of the current timeline characters ranks finish well above captain level and when your TOS characters joins the current timeline and the fed faction there is no reason for them to be any different.
There is a reason - people say they would enjoy the game a lot more if the devs did something like that. It is fine if you want to be Fleet Admiral, Supreme Commander Of All Federation Forces, or POTUFP. Others don't.
That is just a fact. Why don't you acecpt it and help find a solution?
what I find important is gameplay, titles are irrelative, they could indeed choose to call endgame characters Fozzy Bear and I would not care one bit.
titles have no impact on gameplay so if they choose to call endgame characters admiral I don't see this as a problem and if there is no problem why is there any need for me to look for a solution.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Well, you are in the middle of the problem: People are annoyed by the Admiral ranks and express their frustration about it. Again and again.
A whole type of STO-related complaining could be removed from the universe by simply finding a solution to the "addressed by NPC's as what?" question.
I may be in the middle of the problem but then so are the vast majority of the players who don't seem to give a darn what their title is, I would say there are far more pressing problems that players care a whole lot more about that do effect gameplay then the irrelevance of a title which has no effect on gameplay at all and is just the equivalent of sugar coating at best.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
OP why don't you just RP and "pretend" to be a Captain and leave it alone. Some people do that.
Just speaking for myself but this is the Worst Idea Ever and was brought up before with no success in the past. I do not support it and actually like to be a Fleet Admiral.
No. The worst idea ever, in my opinion, was letting us play as Admirals in the first place.
Fleet Admirals flying around in Starships was the terrible idea. A grandiose and unecessary rank for what our characters actually do. And not particuarly supported in canon either - okay, once or twice and Admiral was referred to as 'Fleet Admiral' but TNG onward (and excluding the weird season 1 Admiral Uniform) we never saw an Admiral with a five-pip Admiral rank bar on their collar.
Well commander starfleet is that rank, so Commander Morrow was actually a fleet admiral if you looked at his rank insignia.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
what I find important is gameplay, titles are irrelative,
That's fine. But the title is important to a lot of others. As you can tell by how often this topic comes up. It's practically a candidate for FCT all by itself.
I'm not saying you are wrong. Or anything like that.
I'm just saying a lot of people want the top rank to be captain. Since this is a new faction, there's the capability to make that happen. Cryptic can do it. Do they need to? Not my call. But they certainly can do it. I myself support the idea because it adds a unique flavor to the TOS faction.
If the counter to the suggestion is that it isn't possible, that's not true. It already exists with the other two factions.
If the counter to the suggestion is it will break the game or require a ton of coding on each individual mission, that's not true. Every mission in game can already call my Klingon a Brigadier General when calling my Federation officer a Rear Admiral Lower Half.
If the counter to the suggestion is that no one wants it, that's not true. A lot of people want it and have asked for it repeatedly from day one.
If the counter to the suggestion is that you don't want it, that's true. And that's fine.
what I find important is gameplay, titles are irrelative,
That's fine. But the title is important to a lot of others. As you can tell by how often this topic comes up. It's practically a candidate for FCT all by itself.
I'm not saying you are wrong. Or anything like that.
I'm just saying a lot of people want the top rank to be captain. Since this is a new faction, there's the capability to make that happen. Cryptic can do it. Do they need to? Not my call. But they certainly can do it. I myself support the idea because it adds a unique flavor to the TOS faction.
If the counter to the suggestion is that it isn't possible, that's not true. It already exists with the other two factions.
If the counter to the suggestion is it will break the game or require a ton of coding on each individual mission, that's not true. Every mission in game can already call my Klingon a Brigadier General when calling my Federation officer a Rear Admiral Lower Half.
If the counter to the suggestion is that no one wants it, that's not true. A lot of people want it and have asked for it repeatedly from day one.
If the counter to the suggestion is that you don't want it, that's true. And that's fine.
but the whole point is theres not that many players that are bothered that much about it, sure it comes up time and again but its always the same old crowd that are posting about wanting the top rank to be captain, most others either cant be bothered to post at all or will post that they don't mind being admirals and either like it or just ignore the title and roleplay as captain.
its just a small crowd of 20-30 players that this really bothers and when you compare that to the entire player base of 1000s its such a small percentage of players its not even worth calculating.
sure it might take just a few hour or perhaps a day to replace the word admiral with $title or some such in every occurrence in text but that is still time the devs could be working on fixing more important problems in the game.
if you are so sure there are loads and loads of players who want this do a poll and see how small or large the amount of yes votes you get.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
but the whole point is theres not that many players that are bothered that much about it, sure it comes up time and again but its always the same old crowd that are posting about wanting the top rank to be captain, most others either cant be bothered to post at all or will post that they don't mind being admirals and either like it or just ignore the title and roleplay as captain.
its just a small crowd of 20-30 players that this really bothers and when you compare that to the entire player base of 1000s its such a small percentage of players its not even worth calculating.
sure it might take just a few hour or perhaps a day to replace the word admiral with $title or some such in every occurrence in text but that is still time the devs could be working on fixing more important problems in the game.
if you are so sure there are loads and loads of players who want this do a poll and see how small or large the amount of yes votes you get.
This suggestion goes back to the game's Beta. There are more than 20 to 30 threads created about this topic by unique player IDs. I disagree with your estimation of the numbers. This thread, as with most threads, contains most of the discussion between a small group of players. But I can make the converse point that those who most actively disagree with the idea are the same small group of players who are actively participating in the thread.
I still feel my estimation that a lot of players are interested in the idea since I've seen over the past 7 to 8 years (going back to the days of the beta forums) quite a lot of people ask for this.
If it happens, awesome.
If it doesn't happen, I'm not going to be upset.
Still I feel the whole point you are making is that you don't like the idea. I accept that. And I note that you have made your point. There are some others in this thread that also do not like the idea. That's cool too.
There's people in this thread that like the idea. At varying levels of like.
That point has been made crystal clear by all of the posters here.
But again, if the discussion starts to veer into Cryptic can't do this for tech reasons, or time reasons, there is already evidence in this game that they can and have done it. Dahar Masters show that end-game rank titles are not limited to just the word Admiral.
So at this point it boils down to if Cryptic wants to do it.
And your feedback is, you don't like the idea. I acknowledge that feedback and any developer or community rep reading this thread will see that feedback as well. So you've accomplished your goals and made a very important point.
but the whole point is theres not that many players that are bothered that much about it, sure it comes up time and again but its always the same old crowd that are posting about wanting the top rank to be captain, most others either cant be bothered to post at all or will post that they don't mind being admirals and either like it or just ignore the title and roleplay as captain.
its just a small crowd of 20-30 players that this really bothers and when you compare that to the entire player base of 1000s its such a small percentage of players its not even worth calculating.
sure it might take just a few hour or perhaps a day to replace the word admiral with $title or some such in every occurrence in text but that is still time the devs could be working on fixing more important problems in the game.
if you are so sure there are loads and loads of players who want this do a poll and see how small or large the amount of yes votes you get.
This suggestion goes back to the game's Beta. There are more than 20 to 30 threads created about this topic by unique player IDs. I disagree with your estimation of the numbers. This thread, as with most threads, contains most of the discussion between a small group of players. But I can make the converse point that those who most actively disagree with the idea are the same small group of players who are actively participating in the thread.
I still feel my estimation that a lot of players are interested in the idea since I've seen over the past 7 to 8 years (going back to the days of the beta forums) quite a lot of people ask for this.
If it happens, awesome.
If it doesn't happen, I'm not going to be upset.
Still I feel the whole point you are making is that you don't like the idea. I accept that. And I note that you have made your point. There are some others in this thread that also do not like the idea. That's cool too.
There's people in this thread that like the idea. At varying levels of like.
That point has been made crystal clear by all of the posters here.
But again, if the discussion starts to veer into Cryptic can't do this for tech reasons, or time reasons, there is already evidence in this game that they can and have done it. Dahar Masters show that end-game rank titles are not limited to just the word Admiral.
So at this point it boils down to if Cryptic wants to do it.
And your feedback is, you don't like the idea. I acknowledge that feedback and any developer or community rep reading this thread will see that feedback as well. So you've accomplished your goals and made a very important point.
its not that I don't like the idea, I just don't feel its that important enough to warrant the devs time, you may feel there are a lot of players who would like this so go on prove me wrong with a poll.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
/lesnip
its not that I don't like the idea, I just don't feel its that important enough to warrant the devs time, you may feel there are a lot of players who would like this so go on prove me wrong with a poll.
There's the bigger issue as I've said before and I'm still digging for who said it, it was either TacoFangs or Geko can't remember which. It's simply too time consuming and not cost effective for them to do so.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
/lesnip
its not that I don't like the idea, I just don't feel its that important enough to warrant the devs time, you may feel there are a lot of players who would like this so go on prove me wrong with a poll.
There's the bigger issue as I've said before and I'm still digging for who said it, it was either TacoFangs or Geko can't remember which. It's simply too time consuming and not cost effective for them to do so.
It was Taco. But it was related to changing the way NPCs respond to individual player characters. For this suggestion, that response isn't relevant because this thread is suggestion a totally different thing.
This thread suggests that as they develop this new expansion, with a new faction that the new faction have a different ranking structure. The time and work is already being done. And that suggestion (a new ranking structure for that faction and only that faction) is something that we have visual evidence of being fully possible since all three factions have different rank titles.
Taco was discussing the oft-suggested "Just make NPCs call me what I want them to call me" and the response (very over-simplified) was that it would require changing every individual quest to do that. Which I think everyone in this thread reasonably accepts as too time consuming and not likely to ever happen. What makes this thread clever is that some proponents of the idea of capping out at captain as a rank, have seen the potential to make it so with the new TOS faction. Which wouldn't be the time consuming "need to change every quest" task that was discussed prior.
This time it really is just changing text values.
So it boils down to ...
Does Cryptic want to do this?
I have no idea. Maybe they do. Maybe they find some value in having a TOS faction reflect an oft written theme of Kirk's, where being the captain is what it's all about. If so, then this suggestion could get some traction and be championed.
Maybe they don't. Maybe they like ranks their way. Maybe they will have Commodore be the top rank to have some TOS flavor. Or maybe they will just mirror the Federation ranks.
They could do any of those. Or something completely different. Maybe they'll make up NEW ranks, and call them Temporal ranks and suggest that these are ranks for 31st century time cops. That would be possible too.
We don't know yet.
But the time is ripe for this suggestion. If ever. Because there's a new faction coming. And "rank title" can definitely be made to be different for factions as each faction has its own different set of rank titles.
/lesnip
its not that I don't like the idea, I just don't feel its that important enough to warrant the devs time, you may feel there are a lot of players who would like this so go on prove me wrong with a poll.
There's the bigger issue as I've said before and I'm still digging for who said it, it was either TacoFangs or Geko can't remember which. It's simply too time consuming and not cost effective for them to do so.
It was Taco. But it was related to changing the way NPCs respond to individual player characters. For this suggestion, that response isn't relevant because this thread is suggestion a totally different thing.
This thread suggests that as they develop this new expansion, with a new faction that the new faction have a different ranking structure. The time and work is already being done. And that suggestion (a new ranking structure for that faction and only that faction) is something that we have visual evidence of being fully possible since all three factions have different rank titles.
Taco was discussing the oft-suggested "Just make NPCs call me what I want them to call me" and the response (very over-simplified) was that it would require changing every individual quest to do that. Which I think everyone in this thread reasonably accepts as too time consuming and not likely to ever happen. What makes this thread clever is that some proponents of the idea of capping out at captain as a rank, have seen the potential to make it so with the new TOS faction. Which wouldn't be the time consuming "need to change every quest" task that was discussed prior.
This time it really is just changing text values.
So it boils down to ...
Does Cryptic want to do this?
I have no idea. Maybe they do. Maybe they find some value in having a TOS faction reflect an oft written theme of Kirk's, where being the captain is what it's all about. If so, then this suggestion could get some traction and be championed.
Maybe they don't. Maybe they like ranks their way. Maybe they will have Commodore be the top rank to have some TOS flavor. Or maybe they will just mirror the Federation ranks.
They could do any of those. Or something completely different. Maybe they'll make up NEW ranks, and call them Temporal ranks and suggest that these are ranks for 31st century time cops. That would be possible too.
We don't know yet.
But the time is ripe for this suggestion. If ever. Because there's a new faction coming. And "rank title" can definitely be made to be different for factions as each faction has its own different set of rank titles.
Now capping it out at captain, would be logical, but considering the track record, I doubt it will be done. Any way you can link that post, I've been trying to find it and just can't.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
It was in that poll about titles I started. That should narrow the search down.
Yes thankyou. And again, I simply don't see that as likely to happen.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
I just hope there is Commodore instead of RALH in the TOS faction, that would tickle me pink.
And in the rest of the game as per canon.
The last time the rank of Commodore is used in Trek is season 1 TNG. According to the writers/producers/etc the reason why it was no longer used after that was two-fold. First, they dropped it because all Commodores seen in TOS were insane or TRIBBLE. Second, they dropped it because the US Navy discontinued the use of the rank at the time season 2 of TNG was starting to be filmed.
But as one pip admirals continued to be seen and Starfleet is not the US Navy what the writers intended obviously didn't make it to screen.
But they were Rear Admirals, not Commodores, the specific rank term Commodore is never used in Trek after Season 1 of TNG.
The term Rear Admiral Lower Half is never once uttered in all of ST. Commodore, however, is.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I just hope there is Commodore instead of RALH in the TOS faction, that would tickle me pink.
And in the rest of the game as per canon.
The last time the rank of Commodore is used in Trek is season 1 TNG. According to the writers/producers/etc the reason why it was no longer used after that was two-fold. First, they dropped it because all Commodores seen in TOS were insane or TRIBBLE. Second, they dropped it because the US Navy discontinued the use of the rank at the time season 2 of TNG was starting to be filmed.
But as one pip admirals continued to be seen and Starfleet is not the US Navy what the writers intended obviously didn't make it to screen.
But they were Rear Admirals, not Commodores, the specific rank term Commodore is never used in Trek after Season 1 of TNG.
The term Rear Admiral Lower Half is never once uttered in all of ST. Commodore, however, is.
Not uttered, they are simply called "Admiral". It's even this day in age in the military. You call any admiral simply "Admiral".
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
I just hope there is Commodore instead of RALH in the TOS faction, that would tickle me pink.
And in the rest of the game as per canon.
The last time the rank of Commodore is used in Trek is season 1 TNG. According to the writers/producers/etc the reason why it was no longer used after that was two-fold. First, they dropped it because all Commodores seen in TOS were insane or TRIBBLE. Second, they dropped it because the US Navy discontinued the use of the rank at the time season 2 of TNG was starting to be filmed.
But as one pip admirals continued to be seen and Starfleet is not the US Navy what the writers intended obviously didn't make it to screen.
But they were Rear Admirals, not Commodores, the specific rank term Commodore is never used in Trek after Season 1 of TNG.
The term Rear Admiral Lower Half is never once uttered in all of ST. Commodore, however, is.
Not uttered, they are simply called "Admiral". It's even this day in age in the military. You call any admiral simply "Admiral".
Care to list any? Because I see two, Jameson and Quinn. Firstly they're wearing insignia on their shoulders that don't correspond to any other rank and only ever seen on one other Admiral (Savar), so the evidence for them being RA:LH is another example of MA pulling things out of their arses. Secondly early TNG Admirals wore any damn thing they wanted, mostly made out of red and gold curtains, so they might not even be rank badges, but instead something similar to the embroidery on Kirk's green tunic.
The only clue to their rank is them being addressed as 'Admiral', which makes them Rear, Vice, Fleet or non-prefixed Admirals.
So now it looks like Commodores simply aren't mentioned past TMP. IS this evidence for their extinction? Obviously not, there would be no logical reason for Starfleet to remove a one star Admiral.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Care to list any? Because I see two, Jameson and Quinn. Firstly they're wearing insignia on their shoulders that don't correspond to any other rank and only ever seen on one other Admiral (Savar), so the evidence for them being RA:LH is another example of MA pulling things out of their arses. Secondly early TNG Admirals wore any damn thing they wanted, mostly made out of red and gold curtains, so they might not even be rank badges, but instead something similar to the embroidery on Kirk's green tunic.
The only clue to their rank is them being addressed as 'Admiral', which makes them Rear, Vice, Fleet or non-prefixed Admirals.
So now it looks like Commodores simply aren't mentioned past TMP. IS this evidence for their extinction? Obviously not, there would be no logical reason for Starfleet to remove a one star Admiral.
According to MA, Bennet was referred to as "rear admiral" in dialogue. I can't possibly recall if that is true, but he wore a full admiral insignia and Ronald D. Moore commented that it's simply a goof - he was supposed to wear two pips.
So a "rear admiral" wears two pips, without any mention of "half". There was however a costume remark about "no pip admirals" (Jameson and Quinn) were meant to be lower half rear admirals, although there's no citation given for that claim. But even if this is true, that leaves "one pip" admirals still in the race.
I would conclude that means we have one pip flag officers being "commodores", we just never saw one post TMP-era. Two pips are "rear admirals", three pips "vice", four "full/admirals" and fleet admirals were also never shown post the TMP era (all "fleet admirals" in TNG wore vice admiral insignia) and since nobody would claim Starfleet phased out fleet admirals there's no reason to assume there are no more commodores. If "fleet admiral" post TMP was not a rank but a "title" fo some sorts the same could have happened with Commodores, after all.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
That's because you are all looking to canon for rationale. Canon is what CBS says it is, but the it that it is, is whatever disparate writers wrote when they wrote and filmed the Episodes. And whatever wardrobe managed to put together at the time, for that matter.
Don't look for a consistent, 'hide-bound' ranking structure in here as you would get with an actual military organization where all this stuff is very important.
Commodore was removed in Star Trek pretty much corresponding to when it was removed from the US Navy. Don't discount the reason that Commodore was removed from the US Navy for, for the lack of a better word, vanity reasons.
Seniority is very important in military organizations. For the US adoption of the Fleet Admiral rank (and General of the Army) at the end of WWII, it was also very important that specific Admirals and Generals, were promoted on specific days for Seniority reasons.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Commodore was removed in Star Trek pretty much corresponding to when it was removed from the US Navy. Don't discount the reason that Commodore was removed from the US Navy for, for the lack of a better word, vanity reasons.
Really?
I always thought that "commodore" sounds especially sharp.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
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But as one pip admirals continued to be seen and Starfleet is not the US Navy what the writers intended obviously didn't make it to screen.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
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'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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you can argue rank structures until you are blue in the face it doesn't alter the fact that all of the current timeline characters ranks finish well above captain level and when your TOS characters joins the current timeline and the fed faction there is no reason for them to be any different.
this applies even more to your TOS character the it would to any other as they are basically federation character's to begin with and even in TOS they had admiral ranks so it was not out of canon for there to be admirals in star fleet .
sure cryptic can call them anything they like even Fozzy Bear its their game but they chose to call lv60 fed characters admirals and I suspect they will stick with that model for TOS characters.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
what I find important is gameplay, titles are irrelative, they could indeed choose to call endgame characters Fozzy Bear and I would not care one bit.
titles have no impact on gameplay so if they choose to call endgame characters admiral I don't see this as a problem and if there is no problem why is there any need for me to look for a solution.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
I may be in the middle of the problem but then so are the vast majority of the players who don't seem to give a darn what their title is, I would say there are far more pressing problems that players care a whole lot more about that do effect gameplay then the irrelevance of a title which has no effect on gameplay at all and is just the equivalent of sugar coating at best.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Well commander starfleet is that rank, so Commander Morrow was actually a fleet admiral if you looked at his rank insignia.
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That's fine. But the title is important to a lot of others. As you can tell by how often this topic comes up. It's practically a candidate for FCT all by itself.
I'm not saying you are wrong. Or anything like that.
I'm just saying a lot of people want the top rank to be captain. Since this is a new faction, there's the capability to make that happen. Cryptic can do it. Do they need to? Not my call. But they certainly can do it. I myself support the idea because it adds a unique flavor to the TOS faction.
If the counter to the suggestion is that it isn't possible, that's not true. It already exists with the other two factions.
If the counter to the suggestion is it will break the game or require a ton of coding on each individual mission, that's not true. Every mission in game can already call my Klingon a Brigadier General when calling my Federation officer a Rear Admiral Lower Half.
If the counter to the suggestion is that no one wants it, that's not true. A lot of people want it and have asked for it repeatedly from day one.
If the counter to the suggestion is that you don't want it, that's true. And that's fine.
but the whole point is theres not that many players that are bothered that much about it, sure it comes up time and again but its always the same old crowd that are posting about wanting the top rank to be captain, most others either cant be bothered to post at all or will post that they don't mind being admirals and either like it or just ignore the title and roleplay as captain.
its just a small crowd of 20-30 players that this really bothers and when you compare that to the entire player base of 1000s its such a small percentage of players its not even worth calculating.
sure it might take just a few hour or perhaps a day to replace the word admiral with $title or some such in every occurrence in text but that is still time the devs could be working on fixing more important problems in the game.
if you are so sure there are loads and loads of players who want this do a poll and see how small or large the amount of yes votes you get.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
This suggestion goes back to the game's Beta. There are more than 20 to 30 threads created about this topic by unique player IDs. I disagree with your estimation of the numbers. This thread, as with most threads, contains most of the discussion between a small group of players. But I can make the converse point that those who most actively disagree with the idea are the same small group of players who are actively participating in the thread.
I still feel my estimation that a lot of players are interested in the idea since I've seen over the past 7 to 8 years (going back to the days of the beta forums) quite a lot of people ask for this.
If it happens, awesome.
If it doesn't happen, I'm not going to be upset.
Still I feel the whole point you are making is that you don't like the idea. I accept that. And I note that you have made your point. There are some others in this thread that also do not like the idea. That's cool too.
There's people in this thread that like the idea. At varying levels of like.
That point has been made crystal clear by all of the posters here.
But again, if the discussion starts to veer into Cryptic can't do this for tech reasons, or time reasons, there is already evidence in this game that they can and have done it. Dahar Masters show that end-game rank titles are not limited to just the word Admiral.
So at this point it boils down to if Cryptic wants to do it.
And your feedback is, you don't like the idea. I acknowledge that feedback and any developer or community rep reading this thread will see that feedback as well. So you've accomplished your goals and made a very important point.
its not that I don't like the idea, I just don't feel its that important enough to warrant the devs time, you may feel there are a lot of players who would like this so go on prove me wrong with a poll.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
There's the bigger issue as I've said before and I'm still digging for who said it, it was either TacoFangs or Geko can't remember which. It's simply too time consuming and not cost effective for them to do so.
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It was Taco. But it was related to changing the way NPCs respond to individual player characters. For this suggestion, that response isn't relevant because this thread is suggestion a totally different thing.
This thread suggests that as they develop this new expansion, with a new faction that the new faction have a different ranking structure. The time and work is already being done. And that suggestion (a new ranking structure for that faction and only that faction) is something that we have visual evidence of being fully possible since all three factions have different rank titles.
Taco was discussing the oft-suggested "Just make NPCs call me what I want them to call me" and the response (very over-simplified) was that it would require changing every individual quest to do that. Which I think everyone in this thread reasonably accepts as too time consuming and not likely to ever happen. What makes this thread clever is that some proponents of the idea of capping out at captain as a rank, have seen the potential to make it so with the new TOS faction. Which wouldn't be the time consuming "need to change every quest" task that was discussed prior.
This time it really is just changing text values.
So it boils down to ...
Does Cryptic want to do this?
I have no idea. Maybe they do. Maybe they find some value in having a TOS faction reflect an oft written theme of Kirk's, where being the captain is what it's all about. If so, then this suggestion could get some traction and be championed.
Maybe they don't. Maybe they like ranks their way. Maybe they will have Commodore be the top rank to have some TOS flavor. Or maybe they will just mirror the Federation ranks.
They could do any of those. Or something completely different. Maybe they'll make up NEW ranks, and call them Temporal ranks and suggest that these are ranks for 31st century time cops. That would be possible too.
We don't know yet.
But the time is ripe for this suggestion. If ever. Because there's a new faction coming. And "rank title" can definitely be made to be different for factions as each faction has its own different set of rank titles.
Now capping it out at captain, would be logical, but considering the track record, I doubt it will be done. Any way you can link that post, I've been trying to find it and just can't.
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Yes thankyou. And again, I simply don't see that as likely to happen.
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The term Rear Admiral Lower Half is never once uttered in all of ST. Commodore, however, is.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Not uttered, they are simply called "Admiral". It's even this day in age in the military. You call any admiral simply "Admiral".
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While I like the suggestion and support it, I also don't see it as likely.
Care to list any? Because I see two, Jameson and Quinn. Firstly they're wearing insignia on their shoulders that don't correspond to any other rank and only ever seen on one other Admiral (Savar), so the evidence for them being RA:LH is another example of MA pulling things out of their arses. Secondly early TNG Admirals wore any damn thing they wanted, mostly made out of red and gold curtains, so they might not even be rank badges, but instead something similar to the embroidery on Kirk's green tunic.
The only clue to their rank is them being addressed as 'Admiral', which makes them Rear, Vice, Fleet or non-prefixed Admirals.
So now it looks like Commodores simply aren't mentioned past TMP. IS this evidence for their extinction? Obviously not, there would be no logical reason for Starfleet to remove a one star Admiral.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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According to MA, Bennet was referred to as "rear admiral" in dialogue. I can't possibly recall if that is true, but he wore a full admiral insignia and Ronald D. Moore commented that it's simply a goof - he was supposed to wear two pips.
So a "rear admiral" wears two pips, without any mention of "half". There was however a costume remark about "no pip admirals" (Jameson and Quinn) were meant to be lower half rear admirals, although there's no citation given for that claim. But even if this is true, that leaves "one pip" admirals still in the race.
I would conclude that means we have one pip flag officers being "commodores", we just never saw one post TMP-era. Two pips are "rear admirals", three pips "vice", four "full/admirals" and fleet admirals were also never shown post the TMP era (all "fleet admirals" in TNG wore vice admiral insignia) and since nobody would claim Starfleet phased out fleet admirals there's no reason to assume there are no more commodores. If "fleet admiral" post TMP was not a rank but a "title" fo some sorts the same could have happened with Commodores, after all.
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Don't look for a consistent, 'hide-bound' ranking structure in here as you would get with an actual military organization where all this stuff is very important.
Commodore was removed in Star Trek pretty much corresponding to when it was removed from the US Navy. Don't discount the reason that Commodore was removed from the US Navy for, for the lack of a better word, vanity reasons.
Seniority is very important in military organizations. For the US adoption of the Fleet Admiral rank (and General of the Army) at the end of WWII, it was also very important that specific Admirals and Generals, were promoted on specific days for Seniority reasons.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I always thought that "commodore" sounds especially sharp.