I haven't read through all this but... it sounds like people are trying to rationalize the extremist views of Vosk.
And by some of the logic I saw in this thread... Earth by all rights SHOULD be an assimilated planet as seen for a moment in First Contact because the Borg have the right to survive as well.
I haven't read through all this but... it sounds like people are trying to rationalize the extremist views of Vosk.
And by some of the logic I saw in this thread... Earth by all rights SHOULD be an assimilated planet as seen for a moment in First Contact because the Borg have the right to survive as well.
Like I said.... Meddling in Time is a 7th dimensional problem.... You have to not only account for the past/present/future of any one timeline but of several others at the same, as well as making sure what you're doing doesn't also alter the timeline.
This is why the Temporal Accords are farcical at best... Tyrannical at worst.
You going back to stop temporal meddling is ALSO a direct act of temporal meddling. The incident you may think you're going back to stop may be the whole reason the future changes.(ENT: Shockwave 1&2, VOY: Future's End)
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
casting the Na'kuhl as villians-to-be with a grudge over the aide the Federation opted to withhold later"
Except they were, and nothing the Temporal Agency did caused that. In fact, the exact opposite is true, the Temporal Agency was founded BECAUSE races like the Na'Khul, the Sphere builders, and others, attacked first.
Re. Read. The. Story.
The Na'kuhl's chief gripe with the Federation after the evacuation and cooler heads prevailed was the Federation -- completely out of character with their normal behavior -- withheld aide to the Nakuhl refugees. In large part because the President did not push for it. In large part because a Temporal Agent told him one day the Na'khul are gonna hate and attack the Federation because you withheld aid...
Right then and there the chicken hatches from the egg it will one day lay.
Is Vosk a good guy? Hell no. But he IS a villain of the Federation's own making, under the influence of self-interested provocateurs from A POSSIBLE FUTURE who are accorded arbitrary white-hat status because their front man is a human captain from a happy shiny future who is just so damned earnest.
There is a reason the Voyager plot for this kind of overbearing manipulation of the past is resolved by ultimately not doing it at all.
I haven't read through all this but... it sounds like people are trying to rationalize the extremist views of Vosk.
And by some of the logic I saw in this thread... Earth by all rights SHOULD be an assimilated planet as seen for a moment in First Contact because the Borg have the right to survive as well.
Like I said.... Meddling in Time is a 7th dimensional problem.... You have to not only account for the past/present/future of any one timeline but of several others at the same, as well as making sure what you're doing doesn't also alter the timeline.
This is why the Temporal Accords are farcical at best... Tyrannical at worst.
You going back to stop temporal meddling is ALSO a direct act of temporal meddling. The incident you may think you're going back to stop may be the whole reason the future changes.(ENT: Shockwave 1&2, VOY: Future's End)
You do understand that 'it's not 'real'. Don't you?
And personally I'm not willing to damn a whole world on the poor manners of one guy. Their behavior that day can and probably should be expected to be just a teeny bit erratic. But the Federation vote on providing aide wasn't done in haste and under a dying sun. It was instead poisoned by Temporal Agents actively casting the Na'kuhl as villians-to-be with a grudge over the aide the Federation opted to withhold later... the direct outcome of the vote in question and once again a self-fulfilling prophecy engineered to by the Time Cops to protect the Time Cops. All hail the best possible world built on the suffering of necessary sacrifices.
Since apparently, this one was forgotten, I'm posting a good chunk of it, with some important parts highlighted:
Shon chuckled, taking a moment to look out of a nearby window in 10 Forward. “I’m glad there weren’t any other incidents. Starfleet’s walking a fine line with the Na’kuhl these days… now more than ever, we need to be a shining example here on Enterprise. We need to show them the Federation isn’t their enemy.”
“More trouble on Earth, sir?” Kyona asked. “Surely the Council knows better than to risk the wrath of Ambassador Lwaxana Troi!”
“Despite the Ambassador’s... inspired efforts in recent Council sessions, the Na’kuhl situation remains deadlocked. The emergency support measures are being held up in committee.” Shon grimaced for a moment, his displeasure at the report quite clear to his fellow officer. “In spite of that, we’ll still be transporting our Na’kuhl guests to Betazed as ordered. On that measure, Ambassador Troi was victorious. “
“We take our victories where we can, Captain,” Kyona said, softly. “Iconia taught us that lesson well.”
“One of many, and not all of them for the better,” Shon paused, lost for a moment in thought. “In many circles, the unity we found in the war is giving way to isolationism, xenophobia… things I thought were long behind the Federation.”
“Surely, President Okeg will be able to lead the Council to reason on this,” Kyona asked, a hint of worry in her tone. “I realize that Councilman Ferris has considerable sway, but...”
“But Ferris has a lot of powerful friends, both on the Council and in Starfleet Command. And right now, those are the voices speaking loudest on this matter,” Shon replied. “To them, the Na’kuhl are a dangerous unknown… even a threat. Until recently, they led a life of isolation; diplomatic envoys from the Federation were turned away at every turn. They see that as hostility, and are slow to trust as a result. “
“Aren’t there questions about their connections to the Breen and the Tzenkethi as well?”
“There are, but they’re all based on hearsay… there’s no confirmed intel linking them to any of our enemies,” Shon took another sip of raktajino. “Still, these are the kind of suspicions that are being twisted into facts in the court of public opinion, if not the Federation Council.”
“And what of the other Alliance members? The Romulans… the Klingons. Where are they standing on the matter?”
“The Romulans are sympathetic; more than any of us, they know the pain of losing a star and finding a new home. But they suffered heavy losses in the war, and were barely established on New Romulus to begin with. They simply don’t have the infrastructure to accommodate thousands of Na’kuhl… they’re having a hard time feeding themselves lately.”
“And the Klingons?”
“The Klingons,” Shon smiled bitterly. “The Klingons are welcoming the Na’kuhl with open arms… so long as they come ready to work… to fight… to serve the Empire. It’s the same on Cardassia Prime, I’m told.”
“But the young… the elderly and the infirm? Those not built for war or hard labor?”
“The requirements are the same for all, and no exceptions are made. You can imagine why some Na’kuhl are reluctant to receive such hospitality.”
Kyona frowned, her ears folded back as she took in the news. “There are a number of inhabited systems near the Na’kuhl… where do they stand?”
Shon gave the younger officer a calming smile as he recalled the status reports he’d received earlier in the day regarding the Na’kuhl situation. “Well, the Ferengi are offering their assistance… their incredibly valuable assistance, if the reports are to be believed.” His smile faded.
“As always, if you have the latinum, they have the time,” Kyona growled. “Otherwise, move along.”
“It’s not all bad news, Kyona,” Shon replied. “Quite a few of their neighbors are doing all they can to help – the Trill, the Lukari, the Denobulans. There was a little hesitation from the Bajorans until Kai Kira took a… personal interest in the matter.”
And personally I'm not willing to damn a whole world on the poor manners of one guy. Their behavior that day can and probably should be expected to be just a teeny bit erratic. But the Federation vote on providing aide wasn't done in haste and under a dying sun. It was instead poisoned by Temporal Agents actively casting the Na'kuhl as villians-to-be with a grudge over the aide the Federation opted to withhold later... the direct outcome of the vote in question and once again a self-fulfilling prophecy engineered to by the Time Cops to protect the Time Cops. All hail the best possible world built on the suffering of necessary sacrifices.
Since apparently, this one was forgotten, I'm posting a good chunk of it, with some important parts highlighted:
Shon chuckled, taking a moment to look out of a nearby window in 10 Forward. “I’m glad there weren’t any other incidents. Starfleet’s walking a fine line with the Na’kuhl these days… now more than ever, we need to be a shining example here on Enterprise. We need to show them the Federation isn’t their enemy.”
“More trouble on Earth, sir?” Kyona asked. “Surely the Council knows better than to risk the wrath of Ambassador Lwaxana Troi!”
“Despite the Ambassador’s... inspired efforts in recent Council sessions, the Na’kuhl situation remains deadlocked. The emergency support measures are being held up in committee.” Shon grimaced for a moment, his displeasure at the report quite clear to his fellow officer. “In spite of that, we’ll still be transporting our Na’kuhl guests to Betazed as ordered. On that measure, Ambassador Troi was victorious. “
“We take our victories where we can, Captain,” Kyona said, softly. “Iconia taught us that lesson well.”
“One of many, and not all of them for the better,” Shon paused, lost for a moment in thought. “In many circles, the unity we found in the war is giving way to isolationism, xenophobia… things I thought were long behind the Federation.”
“Surely, President Okeg will be able to lead the Council to reason on this,” Kyona asked, a hint of worry in her tone. “I realize that Councilman Ferris has considerable sway, but...”
“But Ferris has a lot of powerful friends, both on the Council and in Starfleet Command. And right now, those are the voices speaking loudest on this matter,” Shon replied. “To them, the Na’kuhl are a dangerous unknown… even a threat. Until recently, they led a life of isolation; diplomatic envoys from the Federation were turned away at every turn. They see that as hostility, and are slow to trust as a result. “
“Aren’t there questions about their connections to the Breen and the Tzenkethi as well?”
“There are, but they’re all based on hearsay… there’s no confirmed intel linking them to any of our enemies,” Shon took another sip of raktajino. “Still, these are the kind of suspicions that are being twisted into facts in the court of public opinion, if not the Federation Council.”
“And what of the other Alliance members? The Romulans… the Klingons. Where are they standing on the matter?”
“The Romulans are sympathetic; more than any of us, they know the pain of losing a star and finding a new home. But they suffered heavy losses in the war, and were barely established on New Romulus to begin with. They simply don’t have the infrastructure to accommodate thousands of Na’kuhl… they’re having a hard time feeding themselves lately.”
“And the Klingons?”
“The Klingons,” Shon smiled bitterly. “The Klingons are welcoming the Na’kuhl with open arms… so long as they come ready to work… to fight… to serve the Empire. It’s the same on Cardassia Prime, I’m told.”
“But the young… the elderly and the infirm? Those not built for war or hard labor?”
“The requirements are the same for all, and no exceptions are made. You can imagine why some Na’kuhl are reluctant to receive such hospitality.”
Kyona frowned, her ears folded back as she took in the news. “There are a number of inhabited systems near the Na’kuhl… where do they stand?”
Shon gave the younger officer a calming smile as he recalled the status reports he’d received earlier in the day regarding the Na’kuhl situation. “Well, the Ferengi are offering their assistance… their incredibly valuable assistance, if the reports are to be believed.” His smile faded.
“As always, if you have the latinum, they have the time,” Kyona growled. “Otherwise, move along.”
“It’s not all bad news, Kyona,” Shon replied. “Quite a few of their neighbors are doing all they can to help – the Trill, the Lukari, the Denobulans. There was a little hesitation from the Bajorans until Kai Kira took a… personal interest in the matter.”
I haven't read through all this but... it sounds like people are trying to rationalize the extremist views of Vosk.
And by some of the logic I saw in this thread... Earth by all rights SHOULD be an assimilated planet as seen for a moment in First Contact because the Borg have the right to survive as well.
Like I said.... Meddling in Time is a 7th dimensional problem.... You have to not only account for the past/present/future of any one timeline but of several others at the same, as well as making sure what you're doing doesn't also alter the timeline.
This is why the Temporal Accords are farcical at best... Tyrannical at worst.
You going back to stop temporal meddling is ALSO a direct act of temporal meddling. The incident you may think you're going back to stop may be the whole reason the future changes.(ENT: Shockwave 1&2, VOY: Future's End)
You do understand that 'it's not 'real'. Don't you?
Temporal Mechanics is very real, sweetheart. Just as is Quantum Physics. Just because there's science in something fictional does not mean it isn't a real science OR that you have the ability to comprehend ALL of it's existence.
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
I haven't read through all this but... it sounds like people are trying to rationalize the extremist views of Vosk.
And by some of the logic I saw in this thread... Earth by all rights SHOULD be an assimilated planet as seen for a moment in First Contact because the Borg have the right to survive as well.
Like I said.... Meddling in Time is a 7th dimensional problem.... You have to not only account for the past/present/future of any one timeline but of several others at the same, as well as making sure what you're doing doesn't also alter the timeline.
This is why the Temporal Accords are farcical at best... Tyrannical at worst.
You going back to stop temporal meddling is ALSO a direct act of temporal meddling. The incident you may think you're going back to stop may be the whole reason the future changes.(ENT: Shockwave 1&2, VOY: Future's End)
You do understand that 'it's not 'real'. Don't you?
Temporal Mechanics is very real, sweetheart. Just as is Quantum Physics. Just because there's science in something fictional does not mean it isn't a real science OR that you have the ability to comprehend ALL of it's existence.
Oh... ok 'sweetheart'.
I hope these 'real' scientific 'facts' do not result in yourself feeling any sicker than previously described.
Looking forward in future to reading how these 'real' and 'fictional' events unfold, and what effects they have upon your persona.
I haven't read through all this but... it sounds like people are trying to rationalize the extremist views of Vosk.
And by some of the logic I saw in this thread... Earth by all rights SHOULD be an assimilated planet as seen for a moment in First Contact because the Borg have the right to survive as well.
Like I said.... Meddling in Time is a 7th dimensional problem.... You have to not only account for the past/present/future of any one timeline but of several others at the same, as well as making sure what you're doing doesn't also alter the timeline.
This is why the Temporal Accords are farcical at best... Tyrannical at worst.
You going back to stop temporal meddling is ALSO a direct act of temporal meddling. The incident you may think you're going back to stop may be the whole reason the future changes.(ENT: Shockwave 1&2, VOY: Future's End)
You do understand that 'it's not 'real'. Don't you?
Temporal Mechanics is very real, sweetheart. Just as is Quantum Physics. Just because there's science in something fictional does not mean it isn't a real science OR that you have the ability to comprehend ALL of it's existence.
Oh... ok 'sweetheart'.
I hope these 'real' scientific 'facts' do not result in yourself feeling any sicker than previously described.
Looking forward in future to reading how these 'real' and 'fictional' events unfold, and what effects they have upon your persona.
condescension meets condescension, sweetheart.... At every turn you've nay-sayd others facts and or opinions. You can have a problem with understanding people's point of view.... but when you actively try to annoy or harass others for their sharing of fact or opinion? That's when you get in trouble.
Also.. YOU CAN hear how it affects my persona tomorrow night on Tribbles in Ecstasy!
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
And personally I'm not willing to damn a whole world on the poor manners of one guy. Their behavior that day can and probably should be expected to be just a teeny bit erratic. But the Federation vote on providing aide wasn't done in haste and under a dying sun. It was instead poisoned by Temporal Agents actively casting the Na'kuhl as villians-to-be with a grudge over the aide the Federation opted to withhold later... the direct outcome of the vote in question and once again a self-fulfilling prophecy engineered to by the Time Cops to protect the Time Cops. All hail the best possible world built on the suffering of necessary sacrifices.
Since apparently, this one was forgotten, I'm posting a good chunk of it, with some important parts highlighted:
Shon chuckled, taking a moment to look out of a nearby window in 10 Forward. “I’m glad there weren’t any other incidents. Starfleet’s walking a fine line with the Na’kuhl these days… now more than ever, we need to be a shining example here on Enterprise. We need to show them the Federation isn’t their enemy.”
“More trouble on Earth, sir?” Kyona asked. “Surely the Council knows better than to risk the wrath of Ambassador Lwaxana Troi!”
“Despite the Ambassador’s... inspired efforts in recent Council sessions, the Na’kuhl situation remains deadlocked. The emergency support measures are being held up in committee.” Shon grimaced for a moment, his displeasure at the report quite clear to his fellow officer. “In spite of that, we’ll still be transporting our Na’kuhl guests to Betazed as ordered. On that measure, Ambassador Troi was victorious. “
“We take our victories where we can, Captain,” Kyona said, softly. “Iconia taught us that lesson well.”
“One of many, and not all of them for the better,” Shon paused, lost for a moment in thought. “In many circles, the unity we found in the war is giving way to isolationism, xenophobia… things I thought were long behind the Federation.”
“Surely, President Okeg will be able to lead the Council to reason on this,” Kyona asked, a hint of worry in her tone. “I realize that Councilman Ferris has considerable sway, but...”
“But Ferris has a lot of powerful friends, both on the Council and in Starfleet Command. And right now, those are the voices speaking loudest on this matter,” Shon replied. “To them, the Na’kuhl are a dangerous unknown… even a threat. Until recently, they led a life of isolation; diplomatic envoys from the Federation were turned away at every turn. They see that as hostility, and are slow to trust as a result. “
“Aren’t there questions about their connections to the Breen and the Tzenkethi as well?”
“There are, but they’re all based on hearsay… there’s no confirmed intel linking them to any of our enemies,” Shon took another sip of raktajino. “Still, these are the kind of suspicions that are being twisted into facts in the court of public opinion, if not the Federation Council.”
“And what of the other Alliance members? The Romulans… the Klingons. Where are they standing on the matter?”
“The Romulans are sympathetic; more than any of us, they know the pain of losing a star and finding a new home. But they suffered heavy losses in the war, and were barely established on New Romulus to begin with. They simply don’t have the infrastructure to accommodate thousands of Na’kuhl… they’re having a hard time feeding themselves lately.”
“And the Klingons?”
“The Klingons,” Shon smiled bitterly. “The Klingons are welcoming the Na’kuhl with open arms… so long as they come ready to work… to fight… to serve the Empire. It’s the same on Cardassia Prime, I’m told.”
“But the young… the elderly and the infirm? Those not built for war or hard labor?”
“The requirements are the same for all, and no exceptions are made. You can imagine why some Na’kuhl are reluctant to receive such hospitality.”
Kyona frowned, her ears folded back as she took in the news. “There are a number of inhabited systems near the Na’kuhl… where do they stand?”
Shon gave the younger officer a calming smile as he recalled the status reports he’d received earlier in the day regarding the Na’kuhl situation. “Well, the Ferengi are offering their assistance… their incredibly valuable assistance, if the reports are to be believed.” His smile faded.
“As always, if you have the latinum, they have the time,” Kyona growled. “Otherwise, move along.”
“It’s not all bad news, Kyona,” Shon replied. “Quite a few of their neighbors are doing all they can to help – the Trill, the Lukari, the Denobulans. There was a little hesitation from the Bajorans until Kai Kira took a… personal interest in the matter.”
How does that wall of text change anything?
Some people said the Federation didn't help at all, left the Na'kuhl to die alone, denied them the chance to help until they had to resort to terrorism, sacrificed them for the greater good of the temporal accords, on the behalf of temporal agents, etc. I'm just pointing it's not entirely true.
I haven't read through all this but... it sounds like people are trying to rationalize the extremist views of Vosk.
And by some of the logic I saw in this thread... Earth by all rights SHOULD be an assimilated planet as seen for a moment in First Contact because the Borg have the right to survive as well.
Like I said.... Meddling in Time is a 7th dimensional problem.... You have to not only account for the past/present/future of any one timeline but of several others at the same, as well as making sure what you're doing doesn't also alter the timeline.
This is why the Temporal Accords are farcical at best... Tyrannical at worst.
You going back to stop temporal meddling is ALSO a direct act of temporal meddling. The incident you may think you're going back to stop may be the whole reason the future changes.(ENT: Shockwave 1&2, VOY: Future's End)
You do understand that 'it's not 'real'. Don't you?
Temporal Mechanics is very real, sweetheart. Just as is Quantum Physics. Just because there's science in something fictional does not mean it isn't a real science OR that you have the ability to comprehend ALL of it's existence.
Oh... ok 'sweetheart'.
I hope these 'real' scientific 'facts' do not result in yourself feeling any sicker than previously described.
Looking forward in future to reading how these 'real' and 'fictional' events unfold, and what effects they have upon your persona.
condescension meets condescension, sweetheart.... At every turn you've nay-sayd others facts and or opinions. You can have a problem with understanding people's point of view.... but when you actively try to annoy or harass others for their sharing of fact or opinion? That's when you get in trouble.
Also.. YOU CAN hear how it affects my persona tomorrow night on Tribbles in Ecstasy!
Oke doke. Like I say looking forward to hearing more
Some comments are starting to head towards the line of attacking others. Please ensure this does not happen as we don't to issue warnings and bans. Everyone can have their own point of view that can differ to others and still be valid. IDIC!
A. Why did the Tholians attack The Na'Khul? Because the Na'Khul attacked them in the past.
B. Why was the Galactic Union founded? Because the Na'Khul attacked the Temporal accords, causing the races to realize they needed to work together to combat hostile threats.
C. Why does the Federation exist at all? Because of the Na'Khul going back in time and attacking humanity during the ENT era.
Every single one of the Na'Khul's problems has been of their own creation due to their petty need for revenge. Its the same fault as Sela, except Sela eventually came around. Vosk and his idiots didn't.
The Na'kuhl's chief gripe with the Federation after the evacuation and cooler heads prevailed was the Federation -- completely out of character with their normal behavior -- withheld aide to the Nakuhl refugees. In large part because the President did not push for it. In large part because a Temporal Agent told him one day the Na'khul are gonna hate and attack the Federation because you withheld aid...
100% False, in fact, its explicitly stated in the blogs that the Federation TRIED to help the Na'Khul, offering them aide, several times, but the Na'Khul refused every time, and have used how the Federation basically absorbed the Romulan Republic as justification for refusing Federation aide. Once again, the Na'Khul's own xenophobia and petty arrogance causes their own misery.
Also, the Temporal Agency never did anything to make it so the Feds withheld help. You are confusing a few present day Federation people with ones from the future.
“They also tried, time and time again, to offer assistance and make amends. We have always refused.”
This is why there's been a constant complaint of consistency being absent from story.....
The RP blog between Troi and Ferris is them debating the sides for formally aiding the Na'Khul.... With information (your captain had of the future) that wasn't supposed to be shared to the current timeline and yet was. This is present day.... mostly.
The RP blog with the Na'Khul family is a back and forth between propaganda and truth in which the father mentions aid was offered time and again. Is this the future or the present?
The Blog with Shon mentions that the Federation formally denied aid at large while Troi won a victory of allowing Betazed to take in refugees. It remains that /rumors/ of them being in league with other previous enemies and or independent societies is a propaganda to promote Na'Khul hate which fuels the denial of aid...
There is so much inconsistency that sure... They can say the answers are coming..... but by the time it gets here nobody's gonna care that it was V'ger pulling the strings the whole time....
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
The RP blog with the Na'Khul family is a back and forth between propaganda and truth in which the father mentions aid was offered time and again. Is this the future or the present?
Its outright mentioned in the blog that the Na'Khul star died 400 years ago, which means its the future.
It remains that /rumors/ of them being in league with other previous enemies and or independent societies is a propaganda to promote Na'Khul hate which fuels the denial of aid...
Except its not rumors, its literally objective fact, known since the ENT era.
Alright, there is one Temporal Assignment that can end this once and for all both in Star Trek and in this Thread... Prevent Lieutenant Joe Tormolen from taking off his bloody glove as seen in 'The Naked Time'. Boom. No cold restart of the engines, no travel back in time.
SPOCK: This does open some intriguing prospects, Captain. Since the formula worked, we can go back in time, to any planet, any era. KIRK: We may risk it someday, Mister Spock.
Someday wasn't too far removed, 'Tomorrow is Yesterday'. Now here, after being thrown back in time under somewhat similar circumstances as at Psi 2000, they learn how to move forward in time.
'The City on the Edge of Forever' brings in a Portal to move back into your own time, but not really relevant here other than to show how this time travel can really scr*w up your Timeline. From what we can tell only your races timeline is in play. It probably does form the seed in the Federation for the Temporal Watchdog types.
'Assignment: Earth' makes it clear that the Lightspeed Breakaway Factor is now fully developed and is being used to move around in time for historical observation purposes. It also brings up a another dilemma. We now have some race that recruits people from the current Timeline/Target Planet that are given assignments to either alter the Timeline or I guess prevent alterations to what must be. They can also hide their own Planet. Do we know of anyone that can do that?
Did that one seemingly insignificant act on the part of Tormolen eventually unleash the research into Temporal Mechanics that brought about all this? The Temporal Cold War, Temporal Accords, Temporal Authorities, you name it all owe it to these humble beginnings?
Post edited by ltminns on
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
The RP blog with the Na'Khul family is a back and forth between propaganda and truth in which the father mentions aid was offered time and again. Is this the future or the present?
Its outright mentioned in the blog that the Na'Khul star died 400 years ago, which means its the future.
Then that means that aid, at a future time, may have been offered... Yet here we are in the present where Federation Aid and Support to an in-need people has been outright refused BY the Federation based on temporal BS that was NEVER supposed to be in general circulation anyway and somehow, mysteriously... Okeg, Ferris, Troi, and pretty much ALL of the Federation Council have it.... They have the information /we/ as players were told not to even share in the first place!
It remains that /rumors/ of them being in league with other previous enemies and or independent societies is a propaganda to promote Na'Khul hate which fuels the denial of aid...
Except its not rumors, its literally objective fact, known since the ENT era.
Really? We actually saw Breen and Tzenkethi with the Na'Khul in ENT? I need to rewatch those episodes.... What were their names? I really wanna look it up...
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
The RP blog with the Na'Khul family is a back and forth between propaganda and truth in which the father mentions aid was offered time and again. Is this the future or the present?
Its outright mentioned in the blog that the Na'Khul star died 400 years ago, which means its the future.
Then that means that aid, at a future time, may have been offered... Yet here we are in the present where Federation Aid and Support to an in-need people has been outright refused BY the Federation based on temporal BS that was NEVER supposed to be in general circulation anyway and somehow, mysteriously... Okeg, Ferris, Troi, and pretty much ALL of the Federation Council have it.... They have the information /we/ as players were told not to even share in the first place!
Once again, it hasn't been refused by the whole Federation, that'd be like saying the good old USA were in favor of the PRISM program. It has been blocked by a xenophobic bureaucrat and his group fo friends at the council, a bureaucrat whose ancestor ordered Kirk around on his bridge and voted against the Khitomer Accords. Trill, Lukari, Denobula, Bajor started to help and Okeg, Troi and the Enterprise crew were more than eager to help.
But once again, like with the Na'kuhl, radical/conservative elements are ruining everything for the whole population, which in turn put the blame on everyone else.
Okeg: “I believe it is important to consider that the attacks mentioned by the Councilman took place centuries in the future. Judging the Na’kuhl – or the Krenim – today on the tragic events of a potential tomorrow seems… ill-advised.”
I can't continue this without comparing modern day parallels.... Something Star Trek has always done whether realized or not.
This whole thing mirrors, in many aspects, the current refugee crisis in Europe.
What the Federation Council has done here would be the equivalent of the EU refusing to aid and house refugees and although there may be countries in the EU that do take them in, on the whole the act of saying "no" by the main governance body is only something the common person sees as an end-all to the conversation of whether or not to help.
What's happened because of Federation extremists is no different... Just intergalactically. It can be pointed to by both extremists and moderates of the Na'khul as why "they hate us."
meanwhile the Federation extremists linger on the "but these people are gonna attack us in the future" as a reason to perpetuate a, quite literal, timeless cycle of back and forth aggression.
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
The RP blog with the Na'Khul family is a back and forth between propaganda and truth in which the father mentions aid was offered time and again. Is this the future or the present?
Its outright mentioned in the blog that the Na'Khul star died 400 years ago, which means its the future.
Then that means that aid, at a future time, may have been offered... Yet here we are in the present where Federation Aid and Support to an in-need people has been outright refused BY the Federation based on temporal BS that was NEVER supposed to be in general circulation anyway and somehow, mysteriously... Okeg, Ferris, Troi, and pretty much ALL of the Federation Council have it.... They have the information /we/ as players were told not to even share in the first place!
Once again, it hasn't been refused by the whole Federation, that'd be like saying the good old USA were in favor of the PRISM program. It has been blocked by a xenophobic bureaucrat and his group fo friends at the council, a bureaucrat whose ancestor ordered Kirk around on his bridge and voted against the Khitomer Accords. Trill, Lukari, Denobula, Bajor started to help and Okeg, Troi and the Enterprise crew were more than eager to help.
But once again, like with the Na'kuhl, radical/conservative elements are ruining everything for the whole population, which in turn put the blame on everyone else.
Okeg: “I believe it is important to consider that the attacks mentioned by the Councilman took place centuries in the future. Judging the Na’kuhl – or the Krenim – today on the tragic events of a potential tomorrow seems… ill-advised.”
This ENTIRE scenario of "Temporal Justification" just screams out as a Minority Report form of justice to me.
So, because some "yahoo's" from the future, present themselves to our characters, whom exists in their past, then tells us that unless we do what they say, certain events WILL happen; AND likewise imply to us that NOT doing certain things WILL cause the demise of THE FUTURE.
Now, because of VERY poorly thought out & implemented story writing, we (our characters in the "present" time frame) are pretty much painted into a corner in our own actions that we take/are to take/will take/should take; because WE have not been given any (dialog) options by the story writers to tell our Visitors from THE Future ... No.
No, I/we will NOT do as you ask; let the chips fall where they may & move on from there.
The RP blog with the Na'Khul family is a back and forth between propaganda and truth in which the father mentions aid was offered time and again. Is this the future or the present?
Its outright mentioned in the blog that the Na'Khul star died 400 years ago, which means its the future.
Then that means that aid, at a future time, may have been offered... Yet here we are in the present where Federation Aid and Support to an in-need people has been outright refused BY the Federation based on temporal BS that was NEVER supposed to be in general circulation anyway and somehow, mysteriously... Okeg, Ferris, Troi, and pretty much ALL of the Federation Council have it.... They have the information /we/ as players were told not to even share in the first place!
Once again, it hasn't been refused by the whole Federation, that'd be like saying the good old USA were in favor of the PRISM program. It has been blocked by a xenophobic bureaucrat and his group fo friends at the council, a bureaucrat whose ancestor ordered Kirk around on his bridge and voted against the Khitomer Accords. Trill, Lukari, Denobula, Bajor started to help and Okeg, Troi and the Enterprise crew were more than eager to help.
But once again, like with the Na'kuhl, radical/conservative elements are ruining everything for the whole population, which in turn put the blame on everyone else.
Okeg: “I believe it is important to consider that the attacks mentioned by the Councilman took place centuries in the future. Judging the Na’kuhl – or the Krenim – today on the tragic events of a potential tomorrow seems… ill-advised.”
This ENTIRE scenario of "Temporal Justification" just screams out as a Minority Report form of justice to me.
So, because some "yahoo's" from the future, present themselves to our characters, whom exists in their past, then tells us that unless we do what they say, certain events WILL happen; AND likewise imply to us that NOT doing certain things WILL cause the demise of THE FUTURE.
Now, because of VERY poorly thought out & implemented story writing, we (our characters in the "present" time frame) are pretty much painted into a corner in our own actions that we take/are to take/will take/should take; because WE have not been given any (dialog) options by the story writers to tell our Visitors from THE Future ... No.
No, I/we will NOT do as you ask; let the chips fall where they may & move on from there.
The current storyline is in many veins the direct mirror of the Tox Uthot story(not just the lore behind it) from TNG....
It's just we're not given the choice to smash it, like Picard. We're forced to hand it back to the... whatever those people were.
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
Then that means that aid, at a future time, may have been offered... Yet here we are in the present where Federation Aid and Support to an in-need people has been outright refused BY the Federation based on temporal BS that was NEVER supposed to be in general circulation anyway and somehow, mysteriously... Okeg, Ferris, Troi, and pretty much ALL of the Federation Council have it.... They have the information /we/ as players were told not to even share in the first place!
Except for the fact the VERY first thing we do after the Na'Khul star goes out is offer to assist then, and they refuse.
Where on earth are you getting these entirely backwards ideas that the Feds haven't offered help several times already?
Seriously, your not making any sense, and everything you are saying is directly contradicted in-game and in the blogs.
Individuals, representing the Federation, offering aid, yes. And a great many Na'khul accepted. But the federation, as a whole, only voted on aid as a means of integrating the refugees into Federation worlds something the council, lead by Ferris, refused to do.
Although Ferrying passengers is aid it still remains that the Federation council pretty much up and said "no" to letting the Na'khul live in Federation society at large, ALSO a form of aid. The whole argument, for and against BOTH federation and Na'khul is based on semantics and past/present/future prejudices....
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
The funniest part is Walker already doesn't have a home to return to. He and his crew may be temporally shielded so they continue to exist despite some changes but his understanding of history is already demonstrably wrong. He tells us that the signing of the Accords in his timeline went off without incident. Sorry Walker, when you crawl back up the timeline to your home base it may look similar, but its NOT the timeline you set out from. You're going back to a Galactic Union that's had its Temporal Policy rather vigorously critiqued starting from day one. And for someone who likes to act like he's well enough informed to be calling shots, having him be surprised by the sudden appearance of records detailing Vosk's end points directly to him winging it far more than he lets on. The "bubble of history" is definitely sliding around under his feet.
The funniest part is Walker already doesn't have a home to return to. He and his crew may be temporally shielded so they continue to exist despite some changes but his understanding of history is already demonstrably wrong. He tells us that the signing of the Accords in his timeline went off without incident. Sorry Walker, when you crawl back up the timeline to your home base it may look similar, but its NOT the timeline you set out from. You're going back to a Galactic Union that's had its Temporal Policy rather vigorously critiqued starting from day one. And for someone who likes to act like he's well enough informed to be calling shots, having him be surprised by the sudden appearance of records detailing Vosk's end points directly to him winging it far more than he lets on. The "bubble of history" is definitely sliding around under his feet.
On that note, I think Cryptic might be setting up the timeline so as to create, not reenact, the situation from Enterprise. We might be in a predecessor timeline to the post-"Storm Front" one.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Comments
And by some of the logic I saw in this thread... Earth by all rights SHOULD be an assimilated planet as seen for a moment in First Contact because the Borg have the right to survive as well.
Like I said.... Meddling in Time is a 7th dimensional problem.... You have to not only account for the past/present/future of any one timeline but of several others at the same, as well as making sure what you're doing doesn't also alter the timeline.
This is why the Temporal Accords are farcical at best... Tyrannical at worst.
You going back to stop temporal meddling is ALSO a direct act of temporal meddling. The incident you may think you're going back to stop may be the whole reason the future changes.(ENT: Shockwave 1&2, VOY: Future's End)
Re. Read. The. Story.
The Na'kuhl's chief gripe with the Federation after the evacuation and cooler heads prevailed was the Federation -- completely out of character with their normal behavior -- withheld aide to the Nakuhl refugees. In large part because the President did not push for it. In large part because a Temporal Agent told him one day the Na'khul are gonna hate and attack the Federation because you withheld aid...
Right then and there the chicken hatches from the egg it will one day lay.
Is Vosk a good guy? Hell no. But he IS a villain of the Federation's own making, under the influence of self-interested provocateurs from A POSSIBLE FUTURE who are accorded arbitrary white-hat status because their front man is a human captain from a happy shiny future who is just so damned earnest.
There is a reason the Voyager plot for this kind of overbearing manipulation of the past is resolved by ultimately not doing it at all.
You do understand that 'it's not 'real'. Don't you?
Since apparently, this one was forgotten, I'm posting a good chunk of it, with some important parts highlighted:
How does that wall of text change anything?
Temporal Mechanics is very real, sweetheart. Just as is Quantum Physics. Just because there's science in something fictional does not mean it isn't a real science OR that you have the ability to comprehend ALL of it's existence.
Oh... ok 'sweetheart'.
I hope these 'real' scientific 'facts' do not result in yourself feeling any sicker than previously described.
Looking forward in future to reading how these 'real' and 'fictional' events unfold, and what effects they have upon your persona.
condescension meets condescension, sweetheart.... At every turn you've nay-sayd others facts and or opinions. You can have a problem with understanding people's point of view.... but when you actively try to annoy or harass others for their sharing of fact or opinion? That's when you get in trouble.
Also.. YOU CAN hear how it affects my persona tomorrow night on Tribbles in Ecstasy!
Oke doke. Like I say looking forward to hearing more
This is why there's been a constant complaint of consistency being absent from story.....
The RP blog between Troi and Ferris is them debating the sides for formally aiding the Na'Khul.... With information (your captain had of the future) that wasn't supposed to be shared to the current timeline and yet was. This is present day.... mostly.
The RP blog with the Na'Khul family is a back and forth between propaganda and truth in which the father mentions aid was offered time and again. Is this the future or the present?
The Blog with Shon mentions that the Federation formally denied aid at large while Troi won a victory of allowing Betazed to take in refugees. It remains that /rumors/ of them being in league with other previous enemies and or independent societies is a propaganda to promote Na'Khul hate which fuels the denial of aid...
There is so much inconsistency that sure... They can say the answers are coming..... but by the time it gets here nobody's gonna care that it was V'ger pulling the strings the whole time....
Never let facts get in the way of a good story
SPOCK: This does open some intriguing prospects, Captain. Since the formula worked, we can go back in time, to any planet, any era.
KIRK: We may risk it someday, Mister Spock.
Someday wasn't too far removed, 'Tomorrow is Yesterday'. Now here, after being thrown back in time under somewhat similar circumstances as at Psi 2000, they learn how to move forward in time.
'The City on the Edge of Forever' brings in a Portal to move back into your own time, but not really relevant here other than to show how this time travel can really scr*w up your Timeline. From what we can tell only your races timeline is in play. It probably does form the seed in the Federation for the Temporal Watchdog types.
'Assignment: Earth' makes it clear that the Lightspeed Breakaway Factor is now fully developed and is being used to move around in time for historical observation purposes. It also brings up a another dilemma. We now have some race that recruits people from the current Timeline/Target Planet that are given assignments to either alter the Timeline or I guess prevent alterations to what must be. They can also hide their own Planet. Do we know of anyone that can do that?
Did that one seemingly insignificant act on the part of Tormolen eventually unleash the research into Temporal Mechanics that brought about all this? The Temporal Cold War, Temporal Accords, Temporal Authorities, you name it all owe it to these humble beginnings?
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Then that means that aid, at a future time, may have been offered... Yet here we are in the present where Federation Aid and Support to an in-need people has been outright refused BY the Federation based on temporal BS that was NEVER supposed to be in general circulation anyway and somehow, mysteriously... Okeg, Ferris, Troi, and pretty much ALL of the Federation Council have it.... They have the information /we/ as players were told not to even share in the first place!
Really? We actually saw Breen and Tzenkethi with the Na'Khul in ENT? I need to rewatch those episodes.... What were their names? I really wanna look it up...
But once again, like with the Na'kuhl, radical/conservative elements are ruining everything for the whole population, which in turn put the blame on everyone else.
Okeg: “I believe it is important to consider that the attacks mentioned by the Councilman took place centuries in the future. Judging the Na’kuhl – or the Krenim – today on the tragic events of a potential tomorrow seems… ill-advised.”
This whole thing mirrors, in many aspects, the current refugee crisis in Europe.
What the Federation Council has done here would be the equivalent of the EU refusing to aid and house refugees and although there may be countries in the EU that do take them in, on the whole the act of saying "no" by the main governance body is only something the common person sees as an end-all to the conversation of whether or not to help.
What's happened because of Federation extremists is no different... Just intergalactically. It can be pointed to by both extremists and moderates of the Na'khul as why "they hate us."
meanwhile the Federation extremists linger on the "but these people are gonna attack us in the future" as a reason to perpetuate a, quite literal, timeless cycle of back and forth aggression.
This ENTIRE scenario of "Temporal Justification" just screams out as a Minority Report form of justice to me.
So, because some "yahoo's" from the future, present themselves to our characters, whom exists in their past, then tells us that unless we do what they say, certain events WILL happen; AND likewise imply to us that NOT doing certain things WILL cause the demise of THE FUTURE.
Now, because of VERY poorly thought out & implemented story writing, we (our characters in the "present" time frame) are pretty much painted into a corner in our own actions that we take/are to take/will take/should take; because WE have not been given any (dialog) options by the story writers to tell our Visitors from THE Future ... No.
No, I/we will NOT do as you ask; let the chips fall where they may & move on from there.
The current storyline is in many veins the direct mirror of the Tox Uthot story(not just the lore behind it) from TNG....
It's just we're not given the choice to smash it, like Picard. We're forced to hand it back to the... whatever those people were.
Individuals, representing the Federation, offering aid, yes. And a great many Na'khul accepted. But the federation, as a whole, only voted on aid as a means of integrating the refugees into Federation worlds something the council, lead by Ferris, refused to do.
Although Ferrying passengers is aid it still remains that the Federation council pretty much up and said "no" to letting the Na'khul live in Federation society at large, ALSO a form of aid. The whole argument, for and against BOTH federation and Na'khul is based on semantics and past/present/future prejudices....
On that note, I think Cryptic might be setting up the timeline so as to create, not reenact, the situation from Enterprise. We might be in a predecessor timeline to the post-"Storm Front" one.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.