The Na'kuhl would LOVE to just post a handful of ships around the star to stop the Tholians then and there, THE TEMPORAL AUTHORITY WON'T LET THEM. That's why they're trying to use covert tactics to disrupt the formation of the Authority in the past, so they will be allowed to save themselves. The Temporal Authority is actively preventing them from "altering the timeline" to save their own star and homeworld and billions of their lives. Let that sink in for a while. Who the hell are they to demand others lay down and die?
And it's absolute nonsense to think that DESTROYING A STAR doesn't kill people on the planet it orbits. The star is the source of all light and heat, if it goes out it immediately drops to subzero temperatures. All plantlife begins to die, and animal life follows quickly.
Well, except just because the fusion stops doesn't mean the sun would actually immediately stop emitting light. A star is really, really big. And really, really hot. And the only way it can lose heat is by emitting radiation. It will take quite some time before the star would actually be "cool" and so the surrounding planet.
But of course, this is space magic at work, not actual science, so what really happens is pretty much up to the authors. It should be noted however that the Na'khul never talk about the millions or billions they lost - just that they lost their homeworld and home star. I think as a Na'khul trying to plea my cause I would focus more on the countless of deaths that could be averted... Unless there weren't countless of deaths.
In Star Trek, finding a new habitable planet is not that difficult. The Romulans did it twice in their history already. Except one of those times they really lost billions of people, too. They have every reason to want to undo that. Yet they didn't turn into Time Marauders. Possibly because they know it wouldn't work out (as we've seen in the Temporal Core).
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
The Na'kuhl would LOVE to just post a handful of ships around the star to stop the Tholians then and there, THE TEMPORAL AUTHORITY WON'T LET THEM.
And...?
They can illegally seed the entire timestream with agents to destroy other civilizations, but they can't illegally do something to help their own people?
Vosk's posse are just deluded, fanatical terrorists seeking to take down as many innocent people as they can, for the glory of a dead world they won't even bother directly trying to help.
All those ships they sent through the portal? Yeah, that's enough to destroy the Tholians threatening their star and kill Kal Dano. Not enough to kill the PC, of course, but that'd make more significant progress towards their supposed goal than destroying an entire Federation.
Actually, I would guess that they could just install planetary mini-suns on their planet, powered by fusion reactors - and keep on using that planet till the universe dies.
Yeah, there's a lot of things the Na'kuhl could do to mitigate the damage done.
The Na'kuhl would LOVE to just post a handful of ships around the star to stop the Tholians then and there, THE TEMPORAL AUTHORITY WON'T LET THEM.
And...?
They can illegally seed the entire timestream with agents to destroy other civilizations, but they can't illegally do something to help their own people?
Vosk's posse are just deluded, fanatical terrorists seeking to take down as many innocent people as they can, for the glory of a dead world they won't even bother directly trying to help.
All those ships they sent through the portal? Yeah, that's enough to destroy the Tholians threatening their star and kill Kal Dano. Not enough to kill the PC, of course, but that'd make more significant progress towards their supposed goal than destroying an entire Federation.
They're not trying to destroy other civilizations, they're trying to prevent the formation of the Temporal Authority, BECAUSE THE TEMPORAL AUTHORITY WON'T LET THEM SAVE THEIR STAR. I swear, it's like people didn't even read the mission dialogues.
Repeating that over and over again in allcaps won't make it true.
The Na'kuhl would LOVE to just post a handful of ships around the star to stop the Tholians then and there, THE TEMPORAL AUTHORITY WON'T LET THEM.
And...?
They can illegally seed the entire timestream with agents to destroy other civilizations, but they can't illegally do something to help their own people?
Vosk's posse are just deluded, fanatical terrorists seeking to take down as many innocent people as they can, for the glory of a dead world they won't even bother directly trying to help.
All those ships they sent through the portal? Yeah, that's enough to destroy the Tholians threatening their star and kill Kal Dano. Not enough to kill the PC, of course, but that'd make more significant progress towards their supposed goal than destroying an entire Federation.
They're not trying to destroy other civilizations, they're trying to prevent the formation of the Temporal Authority, BECAUSE THE TEMPORAL AUTHORITY WON'T LET THEM SAVE THEIR STAR. I swear, it's like people didn't even read the mission dialogues.
My apologies, I should have said "alliances", instead. Though, making the Brown Plague win isn't what I call merely preventing the formation of a "temporal authority".
This Thread has gotten to the level of those that became physically sick, morally outraged, etc. when absolutely stating that they would never use the Agony Rifle.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
The Na'kuhl would LOVE to just post a handful of ships around the star to stop the Tholians then and there, THE TEMPORAL AUTHORITY WON'T LET THEM.
And...?
They can illegally seed the entire timestream with agents to destroy other civilizations, but they can't illegally do something to help their own people?
Vosk's posse are just deluded, fanatical terrorists seeking to take down as many innocent people as they can, for the glory of a dead world they won't even bother directly trying to help.
All those ships they sent through the portal? Yeah, that's enough to destroy the Tholians threatening their star and kill Kal Dano. Not enough to kill the PC, of course, but that'd make more significant progress towards their supposed goal than destroying an entire Federation.
They're not trying to destroy other civilizations, they're trying to prevent the formation of the Temporal Authority, BECAUSE THE TEMPORAL AUTHORITY WON'T LET THEM SAVE THEIR STAR. I swear, it's like people didn't even read the mission dialogues.
You speak as if Vosk is treating those as mutually exclusive goals.
The regularity with which Vosk and Krog refer to us as mongrels and other denigrating terms takes this far outside of mere self defense. Their goals are clear. They're not just trying to restore the Na'khul star, but are trying to institute a Na'khul sovereignty over the entire galaxy.
And the Temporal Authority won't let them line is pure BS.
They're violating the Temporal Authority's laws by kicking off this time war to begin with. There's no logic in taking the shortest route from point A to Point B by intercepting the Tholian Fleet when it enters the Na'khul system and curbstomping it to the ground to prevent the destruction of Na'khul to begin with. They possess temporal technology that is untraceable, the Temporal Integrity Commission literally couldn't stop them until the star was saved and history had changed.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
The Na'kuhl would LOVE to just post a handful of ships around the star to stop the Tholians then and there, THE TEMPORAL AUTHORITY WON'T LET THEM.
And...?
They can illegally seed the entire timestream with agents to destroy other civilizations, but they can't illegally do something to help their own people?
Vosk's posse are just deluded, fanatical terrorists seeking to take down as many innocent people as they can, for the glory of a dead world they won't even bother directly trying to help.
All those ships they sent through the portal? Yeah, that's enough to destroy the Tholians threatening their star and kill Kal Dano. Not enough to kill the PC, of course, but that'd make more significant progress towards their supposed goal than destroying an entire Federation.
They're not trying to destroy other civilizations, they're trying to prevent the formation of the Temporal Authority, BECAUSE THE TEMPORAL AUTHORITY WON'T LET THEM SAVE THEIR STAR. I swear, it's like people didn't even read the mission dialogues.
If they can't sneak by the Temporal Authority to save their own star, what makes them think they can sneak by the Temporal Authority and remove it from existence?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Which sadly is the spit and the bailing wire holding together this parade of clever references to past chronal hijinks.
Maybe there's something wrong with me, but to me the moment you rely on a predestination paradox loop that never would have started in the first place, you've FAILED at plotting a good story arc. The Tholians only go back to wreck the Na'kuhl's star because the Na'kuhl they enrage by doing so attacked them. This chicken lays its own egg. Neither came first so its a loop that should strangle itself out of existence, not suck the rest of your setting into it.
Which sadly is the spit and the bailing wire holding together this parade of clever references to past chronal hijinks.
Maybe there's something wrong with me, but to me the moment you rely on a predestination paradox loop that never would have started in the first place, you've FAILED at plotting a good story arc. The Tholians only go back to wreck the Na'kuhl's star because the Na'kuhl they enrage by doing so attacked them. This chicken lays its own egg. Neither came first so its a loop that should strangle itself out of existence, not suck the rest of your setting into it.
The issue here is we can't actually see the timeline where the Tholians didn't attack the Na'khul.
I don't see this as a predestination paradox for all of us. This could be a predestination paradox for the Temporal Integrity Commission but an alternate timeline for the Tholians where they prevented and disabled the Na'khul from doing something to them down the line. The Na'khul blaming the Federation and focusing their efforts on destroying the Federation could all be part of their plan.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Again, would you accept "because we said so" if it was Earth and Sol to be sacrificed? Would an alien even finish getting "Your sun and planet and billions of your people need to die because--" out of their mouths before we reached for the phaser firing controls? I think the hell not. Why is it ok for us to fight to save our world and people and others need to just lay down and die instead? Explain this double standard, please. I'll wait.
therein lies the problem, the Na'Kuhl are but one species, the federation, which is comprised of MANY species, is legion. with earth being a very VERY huge part of the federation (and presumably the best temporal outcome as it seems the TA is the force in charge) the exchange for the demise of the Na'Kuhl home world is but a small price to pay to keep the timeline flowing in the original (or at least longest lasting) line, the Na'Kuhl survived, and in enough numbers to keep living, they suffered greatly in the past, but decided to turn to hatred instead of rebuilding.
Again, would you accept "because we said so" if it was Earth and Sol to be sacrificed? Would an alien even finish getting "Your sun and planet and billions of your people need to die because--" out of their mouths before we reached for the phaser firing controls? I think the hell not. Why is it ok for us to fight to save our world and people and others need to just lay down and die instead? Explain this double standard, please. I'll wait.
therein lies the problem, the Na'Kuhl are but one species, the federation, which is comprised of MANY species, is LEGION. with earth being a very VERY huge part of the federation (and presumably the best temporal outcome as it seems the TA is the force in charge) the exchange for the demise of the Na'Kuhl home world is but a small price to pay to keep the timeline flowing in the original (or at least longest lasting) line, the Na'Kuhl survived, and in enough numbers to keep living, they suffered greatly in the past, but decided to turn to hatred instead of rebuilding.
Oh no. That's not ominous at all.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
“We now understand that the timestream does not recognize any primacy. Much like the Ptolemaic model, our early models of time placed us at the center because of our own arrogance. But the science shows that no timeline is `pure’. The history that we have agreed on is simply consensus. Even that timeline has been manipulated by countless hands to create the fragile bubble we call history. Assiduously defended, of course, by our friends the temporal agents. But is this right? Is this moral? The Temporal Accords suggest a `correct’ timeline. But this is a political decision, not a scientific one.”
“We now understand that the timestream does not recognize any primacy. Much like the Ptolemaic model, our early models of time placed us at the center because of our own arrogance. But the science shows that no timeline is `pure’. The history that we have agreed on is simply consensus. Even that timeline has been manipulated by countless hands to create the fragile bubble we call history. Assiduously defended, of course, by our friends the temporal agents. But is this right? Is this moral? The Temporal Accords suggest a `correct’ timeline. But this is a political decision, not a scientific one.”
I like that too. But it's still missing the point, though. Of course the Temporal Accords suggest a correct timelime. Not as a question of morality, but of common sense. It's simply better to defend a timeline we know to be be pretty good overall than gambling with the very existence of everything you know over minor details, like one star in a galaxy of billions. You may call it a political decision, but that doesn't detract from it's correctness.
Self interest =/= common sense, and it point blank questions the morality of the Accord's actions.
This grand Galactic Union beating up on a group they've not only branded terrorists but are actively complicit in forging into terrorists is a repugnant regime. There is no denying their meddling in the Federation's deliberations over whether or not to aid the Na'kuhl by casting them as villains for actions they literally hadn't done yet. All done while their own chronal scientists know that outcome was not fate or set in stone but a matter of choice. A matter of naked self interest. Better 'the known wrongs if it leads to us' than the unknown... because a Federation that stuck to its ideals and helped the Na'kuhl couldn't possibly have lead to a BETTER future. Sticking to your morals doesn't do that in the Star Trek universe, right?
What we're seeing is a tragically lop-sided conflict where history is literally being written by the winners. If we're going to keep on having these end-justifies-the-means tales then I want to see an enemy on equal footing - a DIFFERENT galaxy encompassing polity that can wrestle with the Galactic Union on equal terms and where it can be said 'no, just because your way gives billions warm comfy beds, its not intrinsically better than our way... which gives billions warm comfy beds too."
The amount of jingoistic "Federation (and it' heirs) can do no wrong" painting the sides in black and white in this arc should either terrify you or make you sick.
The amount of jingoistic "Federation (and it' heirs) can do no wrong" painting the sides in black and white in this arc should either terrify you or make you sick.
This... This so hard it DOES make me sick.
we JUST THIS WEEK had an RP Blog that basically up-ended everything were were even supposed to frelling believe about the Temporal accords in the first place! There is no "proper timeline." Although this was probably a sly, on the side, excuse to explain away the fact that we've erased an entire episode of TNG... this shattering of reason is something the blog even ACKNOWLEDGED!
We CAN go back and undo the Nak'ul's dead star.....
We CAN go back and undo Sela/Hakeev's meddling with Hobus
Will we? Hell no. Why?
"Federation Supremacy."
It's starting to look more and more like Cryptic's "Federation" is the Brotherhood of NOD....
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
“We now understand that the timestream does not recognize any primacy. Much like the Ptolemaic model, our early models of time placed us at the center because of our own arrogance. But the science shows that no timeline is `pure’. The history that we have agreed on is simply consensus. Even that timeline has been manipulated by countless hands to create the fragile bubble we call history. Assiduously defended, of course, by our friends the temporal agents. But is this right? Is this moral? The Temporal Accords suggest a `correct’ timeline. But this is a political decision, not a scientific one.”
I actually disagree with her assessment simply because there had to at some point be an original undisturbed timeline for their to be subsequent ones to tamper with.
I also disagree with her purely assigning it to politics. There's a survival component as well.
That said attempting to view anything as black and white is foolish, life is in full color.
The full color version of this seems to be that the formation of the Galactic Union and the Temporal Accords seems to be a matter of ongoing survival for the United Federation of Planets, the Klingon Empire, the Romulan Republic, the Cardassian Union, The Dominion, the Tholian Assembly, The Breen Confederacy, the Ferengi Alliance, and numerous other civilizations across the galaxy.
The Na'khul at present seem to be the primary aggressor, but outside of what's in game, we know for a fact that they are but one actor in this temporal conflict. We know the Na'khul aren't just attacking the Federation so it's best to the keep the Federation-centrism to a minimal.
The amount of jingoistic "Federation (and it' heirs) can do no wrong" painting the sides in black and white in this arc should either terrify you or make you sick.
This... This so hard it DOES make me sick.
we JUST THIS WEEK had an RP Blog that basically up-ended everything were were even supposed to frelling believe about the Temporal accords in the first place! There is no "proper timeline." Although this was probably a sly, on the side, excuse to explain away the fact that we've erased an entire episode of TNG... this shattering of reason is something the blog even ACKNOWLEDGED!
We CAN go back and undo the Nak'ul's dead star.....
We CAN go back and undo Sela/Hakeev's meddling with Hobus
Will we? Hell no. Why?
"Federation Supremacy."
It's starting to look more and more like Cryptic's "Federation" is the Brotherhood of NOD....
Keep in mind that the Romulan Republic has a vested interest in restoring Romulus but that there's also a risk. Those alive now are only interested in restoring Romulus in a scenario where the Republic still comes into existence. Do recall that the Star Empire wasn't always that great for those living in it.
Talk about Federation Supremacy, we could've killed off the Iconians and prevented that war but we did not.
We still don't know what will happen if we were to restore the Na'khul star, though Vosk has apparently found a different way.
At what point did the Federation, the Delta Alliance, and the future Galactic Union lose their right to defend their own ongoing existence and doing so be referred to as tyranny?
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
The amount of jingoistic "Federation (and it' heirs) can do no wrong" painting the sides in black and white in this arc should either terrify you or make you sick.
This... This so hard it DOES make me sick.
You are actually getting/feeling 'sick' from something 'imaginary'?
At what point did the Federation, the Delta Alliance, and the future Galactic Union lose their right to defend their own ongoing existence and doing so be referred to as tyranny?
At the same time they decided other societies DON'T have the same right. Temporal meddling, accord or not, is not just 4th dimensional.... It's 7th Dimensional. By actively taking a stance to protect any one timeline's society you are already becoming a past/present/future villain to any society that falls in that timeline to protect the former society.
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
The realists at the Republic don't want Romulus back -- it would invalidate their escape from the Empire and I'm willing to bet there are no small number of Romulans who would rather murder their brother by inaction than see the Tal Shiar restored to their former glory. The bad blood there is DEEP.
Plus lets be honest: the Galactic Union isn't the child of the Federation... Its the renamed and expanded Romulan Republic.
Human-centric peace-and-love hippy diplomacy didn't keep the Klingons from peeling off and turning on them. No. It's Romulan cunning playing all sides against the middle that opened the Delta quadrant and kept bickering captains from all factions moving in one direction. That's a Romulan butt polishing the thrones of the Solonae and Jenolan Sheres and its Romulan pointy ears hosting the summit to form the Union ON NEW ROMULUS. And frankly the Galactic Union/Temporal Accord's secret police of timeact like the slightly nicer but still ruthlessly pragmatic Republic-style Romulans.
Just think! Soon we'll be able to spend Specialization points to train up as Tal Shiar 2.0 -er, excuse me, Temporal Agents.
The amount of jingoistic "Federation (and it' heirs) can do no wrong" painting the sides in black and white in this arc should either terrify you or make you sick.
This... This so hard it DOES make me sick.
You are actually getting/feeling 'sick' from something 'imaginary'?
I think this is a very '1st world' problem...
Oh! That's right! Because storytelling, a form of expression that's existed for thousands of years, has NEVER had the power to evoke or sway emotions through false narrative! how very Modern of me... Fek'kik...
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
At what point did the Federation, the Delta Alliance, and the future Galactic Union lose their right to defend their own ongoing existence and doing so be referred to as tyranny?
Wrong question. The right question is 'when did Star Trek start glorifying self-interest over charity and compassion?'
...Because I can find the sorts of ethical calculus justifying the "necessary cruelty" you're describing in just about any sci-fi setting.
At what point did the Federation, the Delta Alliance, and the future Galactic Union lose their right to defend their own ongoing existence and doing so be referred to as tyranny?
Wrong question. The right question is 'when did Star Trek start glorifying self-interest over charity and compassion?'
...Because I can find the sorts of ethical calculus justifying the "necessary cruelty" you're describing in just about any sci-fi setting.
Just to be sure, you're talking about the Na'kuhl extremists, right? The ones who said "TRIBBLE you and your attempts to help, we will destroy your alliance and reign supreme"? Because, depending on your opinions on the whole situation, it can apply to both side, just like both sides can be seen with a lighter shade of grey compared to the others.
There is no black and white situation in this arc but guys, stop trying to portray the alliance as heartless monsters and the Na'kuhl extremists as semi-heroic figures.
The amount of jingoistic "Federation (and it' heirs) can do no wrong" painting the sides in black and white in this arc should either terrify you or make you sick.
This... This so hard it DOES make me sick.
You are actually getting/feeling 'sick' from something 'imaginary'?
I think this is a very '1st world' problem...
Oh! That's right! Because storytelling, a form of expression that's existed for thousands of years, has NEVER had the power to evoke or sway emotions through false narrative! how very Modern of me... Fek'kik...
Please expound further upon your hurt feelings regarding this 'false narrative'.
Just to be sure, you're talking about the Na'kuhl extremists, right? The ones who said "TRIBBLE you and your attempts to help, we will destroy your alliance and reign supreme"?
I'm probably weird in that I don't really demand cool, rational behavior WHEN YOUR STAR JUST DIED. Maybe because we know what insanity has gripped our world when it disappears from the mid-day sky for just a few minutes. Knowing -- understanding -- that the source of all life on your world is gone and it ain't coming back would be just about the definition of composure-breaking. And personally I'm not willing to damn a whole world on the poor manners of one guy. Their behavior that day can and probably should be expected to be just a teeny bit erratic. But the Federation vote on providing aide wasn't done in haste and under a dying sun. It was instead poisoned by Temporal Agents actively casting the Na'kuhl as villians-to-be with a grudge over the aide the Federation opted to withhold later... the direct outcome of the vote in question and once again a self-fulfilling prophecy engineered to by the Time Cops to protect the Time Cops. All hail the best possible world built on the suffering of necessary sacrifices.
Do you know the saying "Let justice be done, though the Heavens fall"? Its because a Heaven built on injustice isn't a Heaven at all. The Star Trek style solution, the "Picard Answer" if you will was to thank the Temporal Agent for their insight and say goodbye, because "we're still going to do the right thing here, now, today and help people in need. Let the chips fall where they may in the future. I hope we meet again but if we don't so be it. We will not be swayed from our principles by your fear-mongering."
Comments
Well, except just because the fusion stops doesn't mean the sun would actually immediately stop emitting light. A star is really, really big. And really, really hot. And the only way it can lose heat is by emitting radiation. It will take quite some time before the star would actually be "cool" and so the surrounding planet.
But of course, this is space magic at work, not actual science, so what really happens is pretty much up to the authors. It should be noted however that the Na'khul never talk about the millions or billions they lost - just that they lost their homeworld and home star. I think as a Na'khul trying to plea my cause I would focus more on the countless of deaths that could be averted... Unless there weren't countless of deaths.
In Star Trek, finding a new habitable planet is not that difficult. The Romulans did it twice in their history already. Except one of those times they really lost billions of people, too. They have every reason to want to undo that. Yet they didn't turn into Time Marauders. Possibly because they know it wouldn't work out (as we've seen in the Temporal Core).
They can illegally seed the entire timestream with agents to destroy other civilizations, but they can't illegally do something to help their own people?
Vosk's posse are just deluded, fanatical terrorists seeking to take down as many innocent people as they can, for the glory of a dead world they won't even bother directly trying to help.
All those ships they sent through the portal? Yeah, that's enough to destroy the Tholians threatening their star and kill Kal Dano. Not enough to kill the PC, of course, but that'd make more significant progress towards their supposed goal than destroying an entire Federation.
My character Tsin'xing
Repeating that over and over again in allcaps won't make it true.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
You speak as if Vosk is treating those as mutually exclusive goals.
The regularity with which Vosk and Krog refer to us as mongrels and other denigrating terms takes this far outside of mere self defense. Their goals are clear. They're not just trying to restore the Na'khul star, but are trying to institute a Na'khul sovereignty over the entire galaxy.
And the Temporal Authority won't let them line is pure BS.
They're violating the Temporal Authority's laws by kicking off this time war to begin with. There's no logic in taking the shortest route from point A to Point B by intercepting the Tholian Fleet when it enters the Na'khul system and curbstomping it to the ground to prevent the destruction of Na'khul to begin with. They possess temporal technology that is untraceable, the Temporal Integrity Commission literally couldn't stop them until the star was saved and history had changed.
Which sadly is the spit and the bailing wire holding together this parade of clever references to past chronal hijinks.
Maybe there's something wrong with me, but to me the moment you rely on a predestination paradox loop that never would have started in the first place, you've FAILED at plotting a good story arc. The Tholians only go back to wreck the Na'kuhl's star because the Na'kuhl they enrage by doing so attacked them. This chicken lays its own egg. Neither came first so its a loop that should strangle itself out of existence, not suck the rest of your setting into it.
The issue here is we can't actually see the timeline where the Tholians didn't attack the Na'khul.
I don't see this as a predestination paradox for all of us. This could be a predestination paradox for the Temporal Integrity Commission but an alternate timeline for the Tholians where they prevented and disabled the Na'khul from doing something to them down the line. The Na'khul blaming the Federation and focusing their efforts on destroying the Federation could all be part of their plan.
therein lies the problem, the Na'Kuhl are but one species, the federation, which is comprised of MANY species, is legion. with earth being a very VERY huge part of the federation (and presumably the best temporal outcome as it seems the TA is the force in charge) the exchange for the demise of the Na'Kuhl home world is but a small price to pay to keep the timeline flowing in the original (or at least longest lasting) line, the Na'Kuhl survived, and in enough numbers to keep living, they suffered greatly in the past, but decided to turn to hatred instead of rebuilding.
Oh no. That's not ominous at all.
This grand Galactic Union beating up on a group they've not only branded terrorists but are actively complicit in forging into terrorists is a repugnant regime. There is no denying their meddling in the Federation's deliberations over whether or not to aid the Na'kuhl by casting them as villains for actions they literally hadn't done yet. All done while their own chronal scientists know that outcome was not fate or set in stone but a matter of choice. A matter of naked self interest. Better 'the known wrongs if it leads to us' than the unknown... because a Federation that stuck to its ideals and helped the Na'kuhl couldn't possibly have lead to a BETTER future. Sticking to your morals doesn't do that in the Star Trek universe, right?
What we're seeing is a tragically lop-sided conflict where history is literally being written by the winners. If we're going to keep on having these end-justifies-the-means tales then I want to see an enemy on equal footing - a DIFFERENT galaxy encompassing polity that can wrestle with the Galactic Union on equal terms and where it can be said 'no, just because your way gives billions warm comfy beds, its not intrinsically better than our way... which gives billions warm comfy beds too."
The amount of jingoistic "Federation (and it' heirs) can do no wrong" painting the sides in black and white in this arc should either terrify you or make you sick.
This... This so hard it DOES make me sick.
we JUST THIS WEEK had an RP Blog that basically up-ended everything were were even supposed to frelling believe about the Temporal accords in the first place! There is no "proper timeline." Although this was probably a sly, on the side, excuse to explain away the fact that we've erased an entire episode of TNG... this shattering of reason is something the blog even ACKNOWLEDGED!
We CAN go back and undo the Nak'ul's dead star.....
We CAN go back and undo Sela/Hakeev's meddling with Hobus
Will we? Hell no. Why?
"Federation Supremacy."
It's starting to look more and more like Cryptic's "Federation" is the Brotherhood of NOD....
I actually disagree with her assessment simply because there had to at some point be an original undisturbed timeline for their to be subsequent ones to tamper with.
I also disagree with her purely assigning it to politics. There's a survival component as well.
That said attempting to view anything as black and white is foolish, life is in full color.
The full color version of this seems to be that the formation of the Galactic Union and the Temporal Accords seems to be a matter of ongoing survival for the United Federation of Planets, the Klingon Empire, the Romulan Republic, the Cardassian Union, The Dominion, the Tholian Assembly, The Breen Confederacy, the Ferengi Alliance, and numerous other civilizations across the galaxy.
The Na'khul at present seem to be the primary aggressor, but outside of what's in game, we know for a fact that they are but one actor in this temporal conflict. We know the Na'khul aren't just attacking the Federation so it's best to the keep the Federation-centrism to a minimal.
Keep in mind that the Romulan Republic has a vested interest in restoring Romulus but that there's also a risk. Those alive now are only interested in restoring Romulus in a scenario where the Republic still comes into existence. Do recall that the Star Empire wasn't always that great for those living in it.
Talk about Federation Supremacy, we could've killed off the Iconians and prevented that war but we did not.
We still don't know what will happen if we were to restore the Na'khul star, though Vosk has apparently found a different way.
At what point did the Federation, the Delta Alliance, and the future Galactic Union lose their right to defend their own ongoing existence and doing so be referred to as tyranny?
You are actually getting/feeling 'sick' from something 'imaginary'?
I think this is a very '1st world' problem...
At the same time they decided other societies DON'T have the same right. Temporal meddling, accord or not, is not just 4th dimensional.... It's 7th Dimensional. By actively taking a stance to protect any one timeline's society you are already becoming a past/present/future villain to any society that falls in that timeline to protect the former society.
Plus lets be honest: the Galactic Union isn't the child of the Federation... Its the renamed and expanded Romulan Republic.
Human-centric peace-and-love hippy diplomacy didn't keep the Klingons from peeling off and turning on them. No. It's Romulan cunning playing all sides against the middle that opened the Delta quadrant and kept bickering captains from all factions moving in one direction. That's a Romulan butt polishing the thrones of the Solonae and Jenolan Sheres and its Romulan pointy ears hosting the summit to form the Union ON NEW ROMULUS. And frankly the Galactic Union/Temporal Accord's secret police of time act like the slightly nicer but still ruthlessly pragmatic Republic-style Romulans.
Just think! Soon we'll be able to spend Specialization points to train up as Tal Shiar 2.0 -er, excuse me, Temporal Agents.
Oh! That's right! Because storytelling, a form of expression that's existed for thousands of years, has NEVER had the power to evoke or sway emotions through false narrative! how very Modern of me... Fek'kik...
Wrong question. The right question is 'when did Star Trek start glorifying self-interest over charity and compassion?'
...Because I can find the sorts of ethical calculus justifying the "necessary cruelty" you're describing in just about any sci-fi setting.
There is no black and white situation in this arc but guys, stop trying to portray the alliance as heartless monsters and the Na'kuhl extremists as semi-heroic figures.
Please expound further upon your hurt feelings regarding this 'false narrative'.
It's almost as interesting as reading a book...
...Almost.
I'm probably weird in that I don't really demand cool, rational behavior WHEN YOUR STAR JUST DIED. Maybe because we know what insanity has gripped our world when it disappears from the mid-day sky for just a few minutes. Knowing -- understanding -- that the source of all life on your world is gone and it ain't coming back would be just about the definition of composure-breaking. And personally I'm not willing to damn a whole world on the poor manners of one guy. Their behavior that day can and probably should be expected to be just a teeny bit erratic. But the Federation vote on providing aide wasn't done in haste and under a dying sun. It was instead poisoned by Temporal Agents actively casting the Na'kuhl as villians-to-be with a grudge over the aide the Federation opted to withhold later... the direct outcome of the vote in question and once again a self-fulfilling prophecy engineered to by the Time Cops to protect the Time Cops. All hail the best possible world built on the suffering of necessary sacrifices.
Do you know the saying "Let justice be done, though the Heavens fall"? Its because a Heaven built on injustice isn't a Heaven at all. The Star Trek style solution, the "Picard Answer" if you will was to thank the Temporal Agent for their insight and say goodbye, because "we're still going to do the right thing here, now, today and help people in need. Let the chips fall where they may in the future. I hope we meet again but if we don't so be it. We will not be swayed from our principles by your fear-mongering."